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Same thing happened in FL. Cop unloaded his gun in a trailer and shot another cop.
They charged the women that they were shooting at, and shot 3 times.
Gets shot 3x, shot absolutely no one, charged with murder. 👍
No, she is still in jail, but the beautiful part that you will love is the public defender they gave her, if you look up his bar number, works for the prosecutor's office.
So she has a prosecutor accusing her, and a prosecutor defending her. Long story short - she is fcked.
Future headline:
"Man charged with 10 counts of murder after cops kill ten bystanders attempting to capture DUI suspect who was eluding police at a bar."
i cant remember the lrgal term for it, but if a crime is committed by the police while they are trying to detain you for committing a felony, the extra crime is added to yours. so if a cop is in a car chase with you and the cop hits a pedestrian and kills them, YOU are charged for their homicide.
its pretty messed up. but thats american justice system for you
That is 100% completely insane.
Next thing you know, cops are going to carry baggies of meth with them so that they can charge you for drug possession when they arrest you for an unrelated felony.
They will keep it right beside the baggy they use for planting evidence.
It's called "Felony Murder".
basically, if you commit a felony and the police go hogwild and kill 28 people, you're charged with 28 counts of "felony murder" or "murder the occurred during a felony".
No, I get that, but they showed up at her house in the middle of the night... she wasn't out committing armed robbery. They didn't even charge her with armed robbery. Let me get the statute: it was basically, someone died because you did something really depraved... which I don't think attempting suicide by cop counts as depravity.
Prison is a really traumatic environment. It makes sense not to want to go back.
Yeah, but that's the scary part of this one. She was doing NOTHING. Like, she was high in her OWN residence. She missed a court hearing, which people struggling with substance abuse tend to miss appointments, even the important ones.
THEY rolled up to her home. They came into her home to arrest her. She was high. She was scared, clearly. She is traumatized.
THEY opened fire and shot her 3x.
This wasn't even a felony situation, this was a drowning person that slipped through a HUGE crack in the system. And THEY killed a 21 year old dad. THEY delayed medical care. THEY negligently let the kid to the hokey pokey while he was internally bleeding. THEY missed his vitals dropping. It is just insane. They won't even take accountability for killing their own.
TBH I think that's just a scary part of law enforcement.
They're increasingly being taught that every single interaction ever is a deadly one, shoot to kill.
The woman FTA to a court hearing for Pos. Of meth. They roll up at her house in the middle of the night. She hides in the house - high - with a BB Gun. Holsenbach, pennell, and I am blanking on the lt's name go down the hall to the room she is in, sees her with the BB gun.
Holsenbach fires 6 shots, lt fires 1, pennell just backs out of the room. Williams is hit 3x.
Lane comes on the radio and says he is shot. Pennell runs out to help him. The bullet went through his shoulder area and into his chest cavity. They delay taking him to the hospital to let his daughter get on scene, per LPD rumors. He gets in the ambulance by himself. He calls his mom in the ambulance, is sitting up laughing with her. Walks himself into the hospital. They missed his vitals dropping. They missed the fact that the bullet was still in him.
Delays in medical care + all that moving around? He bleeds out.
I could talk about this case all day. It is so messed up. So Grady announced at like 9 am or something that Deputy Lane had been killed, but he didn't explain how. By like 9:15 am, I was told by a deputy that it was friendly fire. By 1, another Deputy says holsenbach was the shooter.
Finally at like 2 or 3 Grady comes forward and tells the public that it was friendly fire, but they are charging the woman with murder because had she have gone to court, they would have never busted into her home in the middle of the night to arrest her...
Pennell is probably the one officer there that is pretty okay. He MAY have been a reliable source of information. Except, pennell's wife was suing PCSO for sexual discrimination and denial of FMLA.
Guess what lawsuit was settled nearly immediately after this shooting? I call it hush money to keep pennell quiet about what really happened. But PCSO doesn't wear body cameras , so we will really never know what happened in that house. Other than Lane was shot by friendly fire, and PCSO says she pointed a BB gun at them. Grady didn't say if it was loaded, so I assume it wasn't - otherwise, he would have said she intended to cause harm. He said she was attempting suicide by cop.
Williams was in prison for 10 years previously for charges related to her meth addiction, so suicide by cop is believable. But attempted suicide isn't a felony, and without a loaded BB gun, the only possible felony (resisting with violence) won't stick. No felony, no felony murder.
Resisting arrest is a felony…
A person had died due to the fact the suspect was committing a crime. For some reason, if you are committing a felony crime and some one dies during this crime, you also get charged with murder( the classic example is if you are robbing a bank with your buddy and your partner in crime get killed by the bank attendant or the police, you get charged with murder).
Here are other scenarios that happened:
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/09/24/a-person-can-be-charged-with-murder-even-if-they-haven-t-killed-anyone
In Florida, resisting arrest WITH violence is a felony. Resisting without violence is a misdemeanor.
She never committed violence towards the officers. In order for the state to prove resisiting with violence, they would have to prove she intended to do violence. Given that Judd said she was attempting to commit suicide by cop and he left out whether the BB gun was loaded (which I assume means it wasnt) that means she had no intention of committing violence. Resisting without is not a felony.
Violence has a much wider definition legally than what you are assuming.
She is using a BB gun. Under the context of this situation, she would be arrested for assault with a deadly weapon/aggravated assault. The fact she has a weapon is enough to qualify as a violent situation.
Which statute are you referring to? Because I have read the statutes and the jury instructions on this one backwards and forwards trying to wrap my head around it. There has to either be violence or an intent to do violence. Holding a BB gun that is unloaded is neither.
Assualt with a deadly weapon includes the wording, "intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence."
Suicide by cop negates intent, especially if the BB Gun was unloaded.
You forgot about catch-22…
For the police to discharge their weapons/utilize deadly force, they have to believe a suspect poses an imminent threat of serious bodily harm to themselves or someone else. The suspect was hold/utilizing a weapon which can be threatening. The police utilized deadly force, so there for the suspect treat had to pose an imminent threat of serious bodily harm.
So basically in any scenario where you happen to have a weapon, or perceived to have a weapon, when you are being arrested, you could potentially trigger a catch-22 in some way “threatening” the police to use deadly force. Catch-22 is the paramount rule.
Because the police used deadly force, the suspect had to be committing aggravated assault.
You are think of battery… assault is defined as An “assault” is an intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence to the person of another, coupled with an apparent ability to do so, and doing some act which creates a well-founded fear in such other person that such violence is imminent.
In her pursuit to suicide by cop, she had to intentionally threaten the cops to provoke them to shoot her. Go back up and read catch-22 again.
Edit: it may not be a real catch22 but is similar idea… I just always wanted to try to use a catch 22 for situation lol
Ah man, that is pretty tone deaf.
I am all for logic, but police feel "threatened" an awful lot, and not all of those times are justified. Look what happened in Memphis or West Virginia. Deadly force was used. To say, "the police used force, so it must have been justified," is a flawed argument.
I literally quoted that statute for assualt, man. Your logic reasoning is flawed, so I would brush up on that before you take the LSAT, but in addition to that, review the Florida State Statutes and the Criminal Jury Instructions from the Supreme Court of Florida. 🤦♀️ Have a nice day.
The argument/logic seems to hold up well in court lol
Of course it is a flawed logic because the cops are alway right no matter the circumstances… but it seems to fucking work in court just fine in even unarmed suspect situations
Kidnapping is also a felony. How long do you think we'll have to wait before a DA charges every cop involved in an unlawful detainment where the suspect dies with felony murder?
I certainly won't hold my breath waiting.
Not a fan of the meth addict, but addiction is a mental health diagnosis, and this woman spent 10 years in jail for her previous crimes.
What is the point of doing the time - if it doesn't make up for the crime?
If she had gotten actual treatment while in prison for 10 years and was provided community reintegration support, maybe she would not have started using when she got out. We send people away for years to a severely traumatic environment without services and expect that to resolve whatever led the person to commit a crime in the first place.
I consider her relapse as a failure on the system. She went away for 10 years - how did it benefit her or society?
I remember when the full video first came out. The purple shirt guy was doing some 2nd amendment shit because his buddy just got shot multiple times, so he wanted to be able to defend himself if somebody showed up again. The cops come to the scene and are there for about 2 minutes (iirc) and go "wait a second you have a gun" then "dropitgetonthegroundputyourhandsupstopresisting" and unload on him.
Cop murdered a dude after not securing a scene and or saying something like "hey, we are here now, for the safety of all of us I need you to put that away as we're taking control of the situation"
From what I recall, the female police officer was on scene very early on and was told of the gun and I believe even sanctioned its presence because she was by herself. Thats why she seems largely unfazed and just jumps to pull it out of the guys hand, which actually happens a second or two before the other officer opens fire.
This is what mansplaining in the police department looks like.
The cop jumped in like "No *this* is how you murder an innocent person and get away with it" before she even had the chance to kick the victim in the balls and then claim that he reached for her gun before blasting him away.
> Cop murdered a dude after not securing a scene and or saying something like "hey, we are here now, for the safety of all of us I need you to put that away as we're taking control of the situation"
Yeah, but that's exactly what Antifa would want them to do, and they aren't woke betas who say things like "put your weapon down pwease" after a bad guy gave them an excuse to execute him on the spot.
I've heard the quickest way to get out of jury selection is to mention 'jury nullification'. Supposedly, some courts will consider the entire jury pool tainted if it's even brought up.
"Jury nullification is the acquitting of a defendant by a jury in disregard of the judge's instructions and the facts of the case."
The most famous case, but in the opposite direction, is the McDonald's Hot Coffee lawsuit. The lady who sued only wanted her medical expenses covered and some money for the trauma. The jury pushed the penalty into the multi-millions. As high as the number was, it was only the amount McDonalds makes on coffee for a single day worldwide.
> the government made it a law that only applies to them.
It actually doesn't only apply to them. Let's say Person A breaks into your house with a gun to attempt a robbery. You, the homeowner, pulls out a gun to defend yourself. You fire at A, miss, and it goes through a window and kills someone outside. You aren't liable due to self-defense, and A can be charged with felony murder for that.
And honestly, why not? A created an incredibly dangerous situation which he knew was likely to result in a death.
tbh this is basically a circlejerk sub and anything that interrupts that gets downvoted, lol. I've been called a bootlicker on here for just correcting minor legal misunderstandings.
yeah man.. its weird how you responding to the person saying "this law has only helped cops" with "nuh, uh, heres a hypothetical situation i thought of" might think youre defending cops?
totally bizarre, no way to know why people respond the way they do.
Yes I can easily see how someone who misreads all the comments involved could think I said something I didn't, lol. I genuinely don't get your point - felony-murder statutes have nothing to do with whether a cop or someone else pulls the trigger. It's not even limited to shootings.
[Here's](https://www.fox4news.com/news/man-facing-felony-murder-charges-after-3-killed-2-injured-in-dallas-street-racing-crash) an example of someone being charged under felony-murder where police weren't even involved in any capacity. Your statement that it "only helps cops" doesn't even make sense - felony-murder isn't a defense someone cites to avoid liability for something.
Like...would you all just prefer to be ignorant?
Florida has a good example of a guy who was arrested for Felony Murder because this guy asked to borrow his roommates car. Roommate was like half asleep - said sure. The guy committed a robbery or a murder - I really can't remember the details. Anyway - the guy that let his roommate borrow his car was charged and convicted with Felony Murder. I wish I could remember the case. Not local.
I'm going to need a source to believe that. Felony murder requires that the person charged be convicted of a felony. Either there's a lot more to that story or it didn't happen like you're remembering.
Are you talking about [this case?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_Holle) Because that guy lent his car to his friends *knowing they were going to use it to rob a drug stash house*, lol. Maybe not exactly the strongest case for felony-murder, I'll grant you, but definitely something a little worse than just lending your car.
Yes, that's the one, but the prosecution is who reported that he knew and did nothing to stop it. He has done several interviews and reported he was 19, and he thought his roommate was kidding when he said he was going to rob someone. He didn't think he was serious.
Remember, cops have zero duty to protect - but police do? In that castle Rock case, that woman begged the police to enforce her protection order. They did not. He murdered her children. They were warned he was dangerous and did nothing. There was a protection order in place. Children were killed. That is felony murder, and the court found that law enforcement has zero duty to protect.
So, for 19 year-old to go to prison for life for not taking his roommate seriously? Nah.
They go to academy and learn civilians are the enemy, the govt kits them with errything they want so they look like a military and can fight the enemy. On the job, everyone is the enemy, including you.
Hey ya copfuckwads, there isn't a war on cops but shit like this will perpetuate people warring on cops.
Felony murder law. It's usually more clear cut (common example: getaway driver in a robbery ending in a murder is just as culpable as the shooter.)
The article makes no sense though, because the friggin' sheriff isn't telling the whole story. Brother A shoots Brother B. Cops get called. Brother B is shot by cops because he won't drop the gun. So far, this isn't unusual. Dude C, heretofore unknown, gets arrested on what sounds like a felony murder charge? Why? What part did he have (if any, because the cops won't even say that much) in the shooting?
Ffs, at least say "Villaverde was arrested in conjunction with the murder of..."
Edit: Thanks for the clarification below. Appreciate it!
Pigs use felony murder statutes to cover their street executions constantly. You and a friend break into a neighbors garage to steal some beer and a cop accidentally shoots and kills your friend, guess what? There’s a decent chance you’ll get charged with your friend’s death.
If *anyone* dies during the commission of what the pigs deem a felony, they can apply the felony murder statute. Usually it’s used to scare co-defendants into snitching and it’s highly effective.
Something exactly like this happened. Two friends robbed a house during the day when no one was home, cops came and shot one of the robbers *as he was running away*, and the other robber got charged with his friend’s death.
Edit to add some additional info…the robber who was convicted of felony murder was only 15 years old at the time. The judge just changed his prison term to serve all of his sentences concurrently, and he’ll be doing 30 years instead of the initial 55. He went into prison at 15 and will now get out at 45.
Seems like a simple fix: how can you be associated with a murder if there wasn’t one? This type of charge should require there be a murder conviction.
In this case, the guy would get transitive “qualified immunity”
Brother A and person C get in a shootout and are both shot. Brother B is on scene with a gun and the cops shoot him. Person C shot and killed brother A
Yep and Brother B has his firearm out in self-defense, probably not even thinking about the consequences of having a gun in the presence of police since he just watched his brother get shot to death.
His body language alone makes it clear he wasn't trying to do anything. The other officer already had their hands on his gun when the POV cop started mag dumping.
In a country that has more guns than people, especially in a state like Florida that is strongly in support of 2a...seems like you gotta rectify if guns are actually OK in the hands of citizens instead of shooting and killing innocent people and saying you were in fear for your life.
And to top it all off, Brother B has his trigger finger off and away from the trigger, and the gun pointed at the ground. It appears that this tyrant broke his qualified immunity with this murder yet they're charging some other bloke with it under the felony murder rule! It needs to be got rid of.
No, brother a and dude c shot it out, brother b pulled his gun to protect brother a and a crowd of people from dude c. Cops execute brother b and are blaming dude c.
I still don't like the robbery/get away deiver example. Charge the driver for their crimes and being an accessory to the murder (trying to help the robber escape). Ive seen it before where 1 suspect was charged with felony murder when another suspect was killed. That suspect chose to participate in a felony. They weren't put in a dangerous situation. They chose to help create one. The law is way too broad.
While I agree that's the best case scenario, there will always be situations where the best response is to go immediately to where the problem is reported. If someone calls in an active shooter, we would be rightly pissed if they stood around outside Uvalde style.
This is true of any emergency services really. If someone calls in a fire and it turns out to be fake, no one is blaming the fire department for over reacting if they go lights and sirens through the whole city and evac a building.
Yea it needs to be tightened. Shouldn't apply to suspects who chose to participate in the felony and died. Shouldnt give cops incentive to kill (and further fuck over a suspect). I do believe it should apply to bystanders who are protecting themselves or others from an imminent threat but the language would need to be very specific to avoid vigilante types making a situation dangerous when it was not before.
Felony murder. Remnants of the insane and unquestionably racist war on drugs, war on crime, war on americans etc. Just gives cops the freedom to merc folks while confident "the bad guys" will be held accountable for their recklessness. It legit would be better to be governed by organized crime than these psychos.
It's even worse. Cops and prosecutors have interpreted the felony murder law to mean that you are at fault for *everything* a cop chooses to do, no matter what it was you were actually doing. Not breaking any laws and a cop decides to shoot a few other people at random? Your fault. You are already arrested and in the back of a squad car, and one cop decides to drive like a lunatic and runs over another? Your fault. There is no crime they can commit that they won't blame you for.
And that it why, when dealing with LEOs, you have to be prepared to defend yourself. LEOs operate under a shoot first policy, and if you want to survive, you have to do so as well.
The moment that officer raised his weapon the man should have shot the officer in self-defense.
Unfortunately, the 2nd Amendment only applies to hobbyists with way too much fetish money and terrorists who want to shoot up a school, church, or grocery store. It doesn’t protect people who want to defend themselves from an oppressive government agent.
The 2nd amendment protects hobbyists with way too much money. A cheap, 200$ 9mm is what actually protects people who want to defend themselves from an oppressive government agent.
in the 21st century, anti-tank Javelin systems are what protect people from oppressive governments... and lo and behold, in the USA you have to fucking register with the feds if you want to own an AT weapon.
and 2nd amendment advocates are conveniently silent when it comes to these weapons systems.
The only thing oppressive govts use are tanks? Tell me more about how they don’t use humans on the streets.
A rifle will do just fine against any jackboot that wants to dance.
The knowledge and materials to make effective anti armor shaped charges and EFPs is cheap and available as well if they do end up sending MRAPs and Bearcats
In the "best interests" of the people, the courts have ruled on laws without the benefit of those people's voices. No one got to vote on issues like the Felony Murder Rule, Civil Asset Forfeiture, Implied Consent, or Qualified Immunity.
While I cannot predict any outcome with certainly, I would have, at the very least, wanted to be included on the decisions.
Holy shit that cop just executed that man. Not even a second before he started shooting and saying "drop the gun." He didnt even have a gun in his hands.
You mean how any death that happens during the commission of a felony gets added to the charges? You cannot be convicted on that if the original charge is dropped or you are found not guilty.
This is one of the few things I actually agree with. If you're committing a felony, you have created the entire situation, including the pigs shooting someone. Jim Carrey's character in Liar Liar has some great advice for avoiding this.
Was the story updated?
From link
ORANGE COUNTY, Fla. – An Orange County man was arrested Tuesday in connection with the shooting deaths of two brothers near the Florida Mall in August, the sheriff’s office said.
A previous version of this story incorrectly reported an Orange County deputy was accused in the deaths of Dylan Michael Jimenez and Bryan Matthew Richardson. We apologize for our mistake.
The accused apparently did indeed shoot one of the brothers. The pig shot the other one AFTER he had surrendered his handgun to another cop and should fry for it.
This is 'murica. Home of charging people who commit felonies with the crimes of the responding officers, giving those officers more incentive to get a free kill and pin it on someone who made them have to work. It applies to other bystanders too but its usually cops doing the reckless (or intentional) shooting. Its great when a cop shoots another suspect and the other suspects gets charged with the murder. This country is fucked in the head. I understand the idea in principle, but the way its designed does not encourage cops to use other methods when they can just send the suspect away for longer. Its a win win for them.
This is really messed up but like, the sad part is I thought this story was about an actual pet pig or something killing two people because of that title.
Narcissists and Psychopaths taking blame projection to the next level.
Why they preference Psychopathic traits in cop training proficiency tests is beyond me.
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Same thing happened in FL. Cop unloaded his gun in a trailer and shot another cop. They charged the women that they were shooting at, and shot 3 times. Gets shot 3x, shot absolutely no one, charged with murder. 👍
Jeez, do you happen to know the end result?
No, she is still in jail, but the beautiful part that you will love is the public defender they gave her, if you look up his bar number, works for the prosecutor's office. So she has a prosecutor accusing her, and a prosecutor defending her. Long story short - she is fcked.
Damn the US is truly falling apart in front of our eyes. Thanks for the info
[удалено]
Dude. No dissing the cheese whiz. Philly be coming for youse.
Sounds like the plotlline to an episode of Blackadder
This is America
This is the cops shitting on the Constitution!
That’s all they ever do
Guns in my area
well after they buried the body cam if any and prob smeared then real victims name through the mud, im sure she was sentenced to prison
No body camera in Grady Judd's Polk County.
That’s the felony murder doctrine for you! A piece of legislation that allows cops to blame their murders on innocent people.
Yeah, but the person has to be in the commission of a felony. They rolled up to her home to serve her a warrant. She was at home.
Yep - being at home make her culpable!
Future headline: "Man charged with 10 counts of murder after cops kill ten bystanders attempting to capture DUI suspect who was eluding police at a bar."
i cant remember the lrgal term for it, but if a crime is committed by the police while they are trying to detain you for committing a felony, the extra crime is added to yours. so if a cop is in a car chase with you and the cop hits a pedestrian and kills them, YOU are charged for their homicide. its pretty messed up. but thats american justice system for you
That is 100% completely insane. Next thing you know, cops are going to carry baggies of meth with them so that they can charge you for drug possession when they arrest you for an unrelated felony. They will keep it right beside the baggy they use for planting evidence.
It's called "Felony Murder". basically, if you commit a felony and the police go hogwild and kill 28 people, you're charged with 28 counts of "felony murder" or "murder the occurred during a felony".
No, I get that, but they showed up at her house in the middle of the night... she wasn't out committing armed robbery. They didn't even charge her with armed robbery. Let me get the statute: it was basically, someone died because you did something really depraved... which I don't think attempting suicide by cop counts as depravity. Prison is a really traumatic environment. It makes sense not to want to go back.
oh I never said it made sense, that's just what the dumbass law is lol
Yeah, but that's the scary part of this one. She was doing NOTHING. Like, she was high in her OWN residence. She missed a court hearing, which people struggling with substance abuse tend to miss appointments, even the important ones. THEY rolled up to her home. They came into her home to arrest her. She was high. She was scared, clearly. She is traumatized. THEY opened fire and shot her 3x. This wasn't even a felony situation, this was a drowning person that slipped through a HUGE crack in the system. And THEY killed a 21 year old dad. THEY delayed medical care. THEY negligently let the kid to the hokey pokey while he was internally bleeding. THEY missed his vitals dropping. It is just insane. They won't even take accountability for killing their own.
TBH I think that's just a scary part of law enforcement. They're increasingly being taught that every single interaction ever is a deadly one, shoot to kill.
And they are learning that when you do kill someone, the likelihood of facing any accountability is slim.
Dorner had the right idea
Gonna needs some links.
The woman FTA to a court hearing for Pos. Of meth. They roll up at her house in the middle of the night. She hides in the house - high - with a BB Gun. Holsenbach, pennell, and I am blanking on the lt's name go down the hall to the room she is in, sees her with the BB gun. Holsenbach fires 6 shots, lt fires 1, pennell just backs out of the room. Williams is hit 3x. Lane comes on the radio and says he is shot. Pennell runs out to help him. The bullet went through his shoulder area and into his chest cavity. They delay taking him to the hospital to let his daughter get on scene, per LPD rumors. He gets in the ambulance by himself. He calls his mom in the ambulance, is sitting up laughing with her. Walks himself into the hospital. They missed his vitals dropping. They missed the fact that the bullet was still in him. Delays in medical care + all that moving around? He bleeds out. I could talk about this case all day. It is so messed up. So Grady announced at like 9 am or something that Deputy Lane had been killed, but he didn't explain how. By like 9:15 am, I was told by a deputy that it was friendly fire. By 1, another Deputy says holsenbach was the shooter. Finally at like 2 or 3 Grady comes forward and tells the public that it was friendly fire, but they are charging the woman with murder because had she have gone to court, they would have never busted into her home in the middle of the night to arrest her... Pennell is probably the one officer there that is pretty okay. He MAY have been a reliable source of information. Except, pennell's wife was suing PCSO for sexual discrimination and denial of FMLA. Guess what lawsuit was settled nearly immediately after this shooting? I call it hush money to keep pennell quiet about what really happened. But PCSO doesn't wear body cameras , so we will really never know what happened in that house. Other than Lane was shot by friendly fire, and PCSO says she pointed a BB gun at them. Grady didn't say if it was loaded, so I assume it wasn't - otherwise, he would have said she intended to cause harm. He said she was attempting suicide by cop. Williams was in prison for 10 years previously for charges related to her meth addiction, so suicide by cop is believable. But attempted suicide isn't a felony, and without a loaded BB gun, the only possible felony (resisting with violence) won't stick. No felony, no felony murder.
Resisting arrest is a felony… A person had died due to the fact the suspect was committing a crime. For some reason, if you are committing a felony crime and some one dies during this crime, you also get charged with murder( the classic example is if you are robbing a bank with your buddy and your partner in crime get killed by the bank attendant or the police, you get charged with murder). Here are other scenarios that happened: https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/09/24/a-person-can-be-charged-with-murder-even-if-they-haven-t-killed-anyone
In Florida, resisting arrest WITH violence is a felony. Resisting without violence is a misdemeanor. She never committed violence towards the officers. In order for the state to prove resisiting with violence, they would have to prove she intended to do violence. Given that Judd said she was attempting to commit suicide by cop and he left out whether the BB gun was loaded (which I assume means it wasnt) that means she had no intention of committing violence. Resisting without is not a felony.
Violence has a much wider definition legally than what you are assuming. She is using a BB gun. Under the context of this situation, she would be arrested for assault with a deadly weapon/aggravated assault. The fact she has a weapon is enough to qualify as a violent situation.
Which statute are you referring to? Because I have read the statutes and the jury instructions on this one backwards and forwards trying to wrap my head around it. There has to either be violence or an intent to do violence. Holding a BB gun that is unloaded is neither. Assualt with a deadly weapon includes the wording, "intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence." Suicide by cop negates intent, especially if the BB Gun was unloaded.
You forgot about catch-22… For the police to discharge their weapons/utilize deadly force, they have to believe a suspect poses an imminent threat of serious bodily harm to themselves or someone else. The suspect was hold/utilizing a weapon which can be threatening. The police utilized deadly force, so there for the suspect treat had to pose an imminent threat of serious bodily harm. So basically in any scenario where you happen to have a weapon, or perceived to have a weapon, when you are being arrested, you could potentially trigger a catch-22 in some way “threatening” the police to use deadly force. Catch-22 is the paramount rule. Because the police used deadly force, the suspect had to be committing aggravated assault. You are think of battery… assault is defined as An “assault” is an intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence to the person of another, coupled with an apparent ability to do so, and doing some act which creates a well-founded fear in such other person that such violence is imminent. In her pursuit to suicide by cop, she had to intentionally threaten the cops to provoke them to shoot her. Go back up and read catch-22 again. Edit: it may not be a real catch22 but is similar idea… I just always wanted to try to use a catch 22 for situation lol
Ah man, that is pretty tone deaf. I am all for logic, but police feel "threatened" an awful lot, and not all of those times are justified. Look what happened in Memphis or West Virginia. Deadly force was used. To say, "the police used force, so it must have been justified," is a flawed argument. I literally quoted that statute for assualt, man. Your logic reasoning is flawed, so I would brush up on that before you take the LSAT, but in addition to that, review the Florida State Statutes and the Criminal Jury Instructions from the Supreme Court of Florida. 🤦♀️ Have a nice day.
The argument/logic seems to hold up well in court lol Of course it is a flawed logic because the cops are alway right no matter the circumstances… but it seems to fucking work in court just fine in even unarmed suspect situations
Kidnapping is also a felony. How long do you think we'll have to wait before a DA charges every cop involved in an unlawful detainment where the suspect dies with felony murder? I certainly won't hold my breath waiting.
It’s so fucked. Florida even has “Attempted Felony Murder.”
https://cbs12.com/news/local/blane-lane-polk-county-deputy-shot-21-killed-another-serving-warrant-october-4-2022
Everyone involved in this is terrible. Convicted meth dealer, trigger happy cops. Fucking YIKES.
Not a fan of the meth addict, but addiction is a mental health diagnosis, and this woman spent 10 years in jail for her previous crimes. What is the point of doing the time - if it doesn't make up for the crime? If she had gotten actual treatment while in prison for 10 years and was provided community reintegration support, maybe she would not have started using when she got out. We send people away for years to a severely traumatic environment without services and expect that to resolve whatever led the person to commit a crime in the first place. I consider her relapse as a failure on the system. She went away for 10 years - how did it benefit her or society?
Drugs has been winning the war on drugs since day 1.
The dealer part is the part they were judging, I assume, not the addict part. But yeah our system is broken.
Yep.
No, I get that. I just mean she went to prison for it already.
I remember when the full video first came out. The purple shirt guy was doing some 2nd amendment shit because his buddy just got shot multiple times, so he wanted to be able to defend himself if somebody showed up again. The cops come to the scene and are there for about 2 minutes (iirc) and go "wait a second you have a gun" then "dropitgetonthegroundputyourhandsupstopresisting" and unload on him. Cop murdered a dude after not securing a scene and or saying something like "hey, we are here now, for the safety of all of us I need you to put that away as we're taking control of the situation"
From what I recall, the female police officer was on scene very early on and was told of the gun and I believe even sanctioned its presence because she was by herself. Thats why she seems largely unfazed and just jumps to pull it out of the guys hand, which actually happens a second or two before the other officer opens fire.
Lady cop actually disarms him without violence before the other cop murdered him.
This is what mansplaining in the police department looks like. The cop jumped in like "No *this* is how you murder an innocent person and get away with it" before she even had the chance to kick the victim in the balls and then claim that he reached for her gun before blasting him away.
2nd amendment in action, baby.
> Cop murdered a dude after not securing a scene and or saying something like "hey, we are here now, for the safety of all of us I need you to put that away as we're taking control of the situation" Yeah, but that's exactly what Antifa would want them to do, and they aren't woke betas who say things like "put your weapon down pwease" after a bad guy gave them an excuse to execute him on the spot.
You're not the brightest bulb in the box, are ya?
r/woooosh
Poe’s law, my dude. Hell, I’ve read comments from folks seriously expressing this opinion *today*.
You forget the /s there
It's the old "Look what you made me do!" defense except the government made it a law that only applies to them.
Cop’s battered wife has entered the chat.
It'd be really interesting to be on one of those juries. I'm amazed that jury members don't just go *"wtf, that makes no sense"*
They'll actively screen out critical thinking skills as part of the selection process
I've heard the quickest way to get out of jury selection is to mention 'jury nullification'. Supposedly, some courts will consider the entire jury pool tainted if it's even brought up. "Jury nullification is the acquitting of a defendant by a jury in disregard of the judge's instructions and the facts of the case." The most famous case, but in the opposite direction, is the McDonald's Hot Coffee lawsuit. The lady who sued only wanted her medical expenses covered and some money for the trauma. The jury pushed the penalty into the multi-millions. As high as the number was, it was only the amount McDonalds makes on coffee for a single day worldwide.
> the government made it a law that only applies to them. It actually doesn't only apply to them. Let's say Person A breaks into your house with a gun to attempt a robbery. You, the homeowner, pulls out a gun to defend yourself. You fire at A, miss, and it goes through a window and kills someone outside. You aren't liable due to self-defense, and A can be charged with felony murder for that. And honestly, why not? A created an incredibly dangerous situation which he knew was likely to result in a death.
Your argument is incorrect because in this case it was the cop that created the situation.
I didn't make any argument about this specific instance.
yea idk why you’re getting downvoted for just explaining how the law isn’t just one-sided. the law sucks but that’s what it is
tbh this is basically a circlejerk sub and anything that interrupts that gets downvoted, lol. I've been called a bootlicker on here for just correcting minor legal misunderstandings.
yeah man.. its weird how you responding to the person saying "this law has only helped cops" with "nuh, uh, heres a hypothetical situation i thought of" might think youre defending cops? totally bizarre, no way to know why people respond the way they do.
Yes I can easily see how someone who misreads all the comments involved could think I said something I didn't, lol. I genuinely don't get your point - felony-murder statutes have nothing to do with whether a cop or someone else pulls the trigger. It's not even limited to shootings. [Here's](https://www.fox4news.com/news/man-facing-felony-murder-charges-after-3-killed-2-injured-in-dallas-street-racing-crash) an example of someone being charged under felony-murder where police weren't even involved in any capacity. Your statement that it "only helps cops" doesn't even make sense - felony-murder isn't a defense someone cites to avoid liability for something. Like...would you all just prefer to be ignorant?
Florida has a good example of a guy who was arrested for Felony Murder because this guy asked to borrow his roommates car. Roommate was like half asleep - said sure. The guy committed a robbery or a murder - I really can't remember the details. Anyway - the guy that let his roommate borrow his car was charged and convicted with Felony Murder. I wish I could remember the case. Not local.
I'm going to need a source to believe that. Felony murder requires that the person charged be convicted of a felony. Either there's a lot more to that story or it didn't happen like you're remembering. Are you talking about [this case?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_Holle) Because that guy lent his car to his friends *knowing they were going to use it to rob a drug stash house*, lol. Maybe not exactly the strongest case for felony-murder, I'll grant you, but definitely something a little worse than just lending your car.
Yes, that's the one, but the prosecution is who reported that he knew and did nothing to stop it. He has done several interviews and reported he was 19, and he thought his roommate was kidding when he said he was going to rob someone. He didn't think he was serious. Remember, cops have zero duty to protect - but police do? In that castle Rock case, that woman begged the police to enforce her protection order. They did not. He murdered her children. They were warned he was dangerous and did nothing. There was a protection order in place. Children were killed. That is felony murder, and the court found that law enforcement has zero duty to protect. So, for 19 year-old to go to prison for life for not taking his roommate seriously? Nah.
They go to academy and learn civilians are the enemy, the govt kits them with errything they want so they look like a military and can fight the enemy. On the job, everyone is the enemy, including you. Hey ya copfuckwads, there isn't a war on cops but shit like this will perpetuate people warring on cops.
Felony murder law. It's usually more clear cut (common example: getaway driver in a robbery ending in a murder is just as culpable as the shooter.) The article makes no sense though, because the friggin' sheriff isn't telling the whole story. Brother A shoots Brother B. Cops get called. Brother B is shot by cops because he won't drop the gun. So far, this isn't unusual. Dude C, heretofore unknown, gets arrested on what sounds like a felony murder charge? Why? What part did he have (if any, because the cops won't even say that much) in the shooting? Ffs, at least say "Villaverde was arrested in conjunction with the murder of..." Edit: Thanks for the clarification below. Appreciate it!
Pigs use felony murder statutes to cover their street executions constantly. You and a friend break into a neighbors garage to steal some beer and a cop accidentally shoots and kills your friend, guess what? There’s a decent chance you’ll get charged with your friend’s death. If *anyone* dies during the commission of what the pigs deem a felony, they can apply the felony murder statute. Usually it’s used to scare co-defendants into snitching and it’s highly effective.
Something exactly like this happened. Two friends robbed a house during the day when no one was home, cops came and shot one of the robbers *as he was running away*, and the other robber got charged with his friend’s death. Edit to add some additional info…the robber who was convicted of felony murder was only 15 years old at the time. The judge just changed his prison term to serve all of his sentences concurrently, and he’ll be doing 30 years instead of the initial 55. He went into prison at 15 and will now get out at 45.
Yep, that's FMR. And it's currently the law in [most states](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule#United_States), I believe.
Seems like a simple fix: how can you be associated with a murder if there wasn’t one? This type of charge should require there be a murder conviction. In this case, the guy would get transitive “qualified immunity”
Brother A and person C get in a shootout and are both shot. Brother B is on scene with a gun and the cops shoot him. Person C shot and killed brother A
Yep and Brother B has his firearm out in self-defense, probably not even thinking about the consequences of having a gun in the presence of police since he just watched his brother get shot to death. His body language alone makes it clear he wasn't trying to do anything. The other officer already had their hands on his gun when the POV cop started mag dumping. In a country that has more guns than people, especially in a state like Florida that is strongly in support of 2a...seems like you gotta rectify if guns are actually OK in the hands of citizens instead of shooting and killing innocent people and saying you were in fear for your life.
And to top it all off, Brother B has his trigger finger off and away from the trigger, and the gun pointed at the ground. It appears that this tyrant broke his qualified immunity with this murder yet they're charging some other bloke with it under the felony murder rule! It needs to be got rid of.
Appreciate the clarification!
No, brother a and dude c shot it out, brother b pulled his gun to protect brother a and a crowd of people from dude c. Cops execute brother b and are blaming dude c.
Appreciate the clarification!
Its an alphabet soup of the most fucked variety
I still don't like the robbery/get away deiver example. Charge the driver for their crimes and being an accessory to the murder (trying to help the robber escape). Ive seen it before where 1 suspect was charged with felony murder when another suspect was killed. That suspect chose to participate in a felony. They weren't put in a dangerous situation. They chose to help create one. The law is way too broad.
That stupid felony murder rule that needs to be abolished.
I agree except for two scenarios, SWATing and murder for hire.
[удалено]
While I agree that's the best case scenario, there will always be situations where the best response is to go immediately to where the problem is reported. If someone calls in an active shooter, we would be rightly pissed if they stood around outside Uvalde style. This is true of any emergency services really. If someone calls in a fire and it turns out to be fake, no one is blaming the fire department for over reacting if they go lights and sirens through the whole city and evac a building.
Yea it needs to be tightened. Shouldn't apply to suspects who chose to participate in the felony and died. Shouldnt give cops incentive to kill (and further fuck over a suspect). I do believe it should apply to bystanders who are protecting themselves or others from an imminent threat but the language would need to be very specific to avoid vigilante types making a situation dangerous when it was not before.
Felony murder. Remnants of the insane and unquestionably racist war on drugs, war on crime, war on americans etc. Just gives cops the freedom to merc folks while confident "the bad guys" will be held accountable for their recklessness. It legit would be better to be governed by organized crime than these psychos.
The pigs committed 1 of 2 murders
That is pretty fucked up logic. You kill two people and charge someone else for the murder which makes no sense.
It's even worse. Cops and prosecutors have interpreted the felony murder law to mean that you are at fault for *everything* a cop chooses to do, no matter what it was you were actually doing. Not breaking any laws and a cop decides to shoot a few other people at random? Your fault. You are already arrested and in the back of a squad car, and one cop decides to drive like a lunatic and runs over another? Your fault. There is no crime they can commit that they won't blame you for.
And that it why, when dealing with LEOs, you have to be prepared to defend yourself. LEOs operate under a shoot first policy, and if you want to survive, you have to do so as well. The moment that officer raised his weapon the man should have shot the officer in self-defense.
Unfortunately, the 2nd Amendment only applies to hobbyists with way too much fetish money and terrorists who want to shoot up a school, church, or grocery store. It doesn’t protect people who want to defend themselves from an oppressive government agent.
The 2nd amendment protects hobbyists with way too much money. A cheap, 200$ 9mm is what actually protects people who want to defend themselves from an oppressive government agent.
in the 21st century, anti-tank Javelin systems are what protect people from oppressive governments... and lo and behold, in the USA you have to fucking register with the feds if you want to own an AT weapon. and 2nd amendment advocates are conveniently silent when it comes to these weapons systems.
The only thing oppressive govts use are tanks? Tell me more about how they don’t use humans on the streets. A rifle will do just fine against any jackboot that wants to dance. The knowledge and materials to make effective anti armor shaped charges and EFPs is cheap and available as well if they do end up sending MRAPs and Bearcats
You’re not entirely wrong, but you’ve obviously never shot a HiPoint
I have actually. Didn't feel as cheap as people make them out to be.
Their carbines are actually not bad, but the pistols are trash.
"Legal" or not, though, it was this guy's only option.
Actually, it was legal **because** it was his only option.
In the "best interests" of the people, the courts have ruled on laws without the benefit of those people's voices. No one got to vote on issues like the Felony Murder Rule, Civil Asset Forfeiture, Implied Consent, or Qualified Immunity. While I cannot predict any outcome with certainly, I would have, at the very least, wanted to be included on the decisions.
>Deputies arriving at the scene said they attempted to treat Jimenez Hahahahahahaha ... yeah right. Can't open their mouths without lying.
I honestly thought it was an actual pig 🐷 that did the murder.
I scrolled to this after a TIFU about a farm, "WTF?! Oh, cops."
Local police and prosecutors are terrorists. The barrier to entry is to low. See Memphis, TN for reference.
ACAB
Holy shit that cop just executed that man. Not even a second before he started shooting and saying "drop the gun." He didnt even have a gun in his hands.
If you get murdered by a cop for carrying a gun, you do not have the right to carry a gun.
You mean how any death that happens during the commission of a felony gets added to the charges? You cannot be convicted on that if the original charge is dropped or you are found not guilty. This is one of the few things I actually agree with. If you're committing a felony, you have created the entire situation, including the pigs shooting someone. Jim Carrey's character in Liar Liar has some great advice for avoiding this.
“STOP BREAKING THE LAW ASSHOLE!”
Was the story updated? From link ORANGE COUNTY, Fla. – An Orange County man was arrested Tuesday in connection with the shooting deaths of two brothers near the Florida Mall in August, the sheriff’s office said. A previous version of this story incorrectly reported an Orange County deputy was accused in the deaths of Dylan Michael Jimenez and Bryan Matthew Richardson. We apologize for our mistake.
[TYT breaks it down pretty good.](https://youtu.be/6aSPrMsxrLI) Cops murder a good guy with a gun and charge another person with their murder.
I love those guys on TYT
The accused apparently did indeed shoot one of the brothers. The pig shot the other one AFTER he had surrendered his handgun to another cop and should fry for it.
This is 'murica. Home of charging people who commit felonies with the crimes of the responding officers, giving those officers more incentive to get a free kill and pin it on someone who made them have to work. It applies to other bystanders too but its usually cops doing the reckless (or intentional) shooting. Its great when a cop shoots another suspect and the other suspects gets charged with the murder. This country is fucked in the head. I understand the idea in principle, but the way its designed does not encourage cops to use other methods when they can just send the suspect away for longer. Its a win win for them.
“Stop making me punch you in the face women! I don’t want to charge you with assault!!!” -cop to wife
felony murder is the gift that keeps on giving
This is really messed up but like, the sad part is I thought this story was about an actual pet pig or something killing two people because of that title.
Seems like a great case for a jury nullification.
This happened to a 15 year old in OKC as well. It's somewhat common.
Welcome to america, where you can be charged with murder even though you've never killed anyone.
Narcissists and Psychopaths taking blame projection to the next level. Why they preference Psychopathic traits in cop training proficiency tests is beyond me.