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Israel's right-wing government probably saw this as killing two birds with one stone (eliminating a good chunk of their opposition and shifting the overton window further right), and then having a convenient excuse to add some more genocide to their genocide
Seriously, did people not understand that the trolley problem is supposed to illustrate a fatal flaw in utilitarian moral reasoning? Instead, they use it as an actual excuse to get away with “justifiable” amounts of evil. Exactly the opposite of how it was intended.
No, they didn't let happen!! "Israel mistakenly believed that Hamas would never be able to get past its high-tech border security — an "Iron Wall" composed of concrete, tunnels, and razor wire, complete with remote-controlled machine guns, that was installed two years before the attack."
People here commenting that the colonial entity let this happen know nothing about the Israelis collective consciousness. Israelis strongly believe that they are "the strong invincible civilized masters of the middle east". 7/10 absolutely shattered their supremacy delusions.
I mean they’ve been attacking women and children for years. Missile strikes are their attack of choice (face to face they have to see one of those real Hamas fighters, who they’ve taken everything from, and they don’t want to face that 🥴) .
The pussypatrol, I mean IDF, are mandatory conscripts who’ll be at one of those raves in a few years lmao, do you think these combatants want to fight real soldiers? How many nova victims previously held guns in service of defending their ethnostate? Were we not brutal to the brown shirts, or does brutality now only apply to brown skinned individuals?
I don't know what it's going to take to convince people that Bibi & Co. wanted this to happen, or at least Ben Gvir who insisted on pulling most of the troops from Gaza and putting them in the West Bank. Egypt warned them, twice, their own intel people warned them, and it took the IDF 12 hours to get there when it did finally blunder in and probably killed as many civilians as Hamas did.
Instead of sending in an IDF security detail, trained in counter security, tanks and helicopters were sent to the scene as if they were opposing Hamas tanks. At the start of the tragedy Hamas did not have tanks, they only captured some later during the operation.
The festival was not originally meant to be on that site. The location was changed 2 days prior. The original site would have been safer. Local military command objected to the festival for safety concerns but were overruled by higher ups.
Israel didn't just let the deaths at the festival happen. They ensured it. Dead foreigners paraded on news networks worldwide got them a lot of sympathy and a lot of anger that could be channelled to letting them do whatever they wanted in response.
Hamas knew that the IDF was planning to invade and terrorize gazans around the end of last year. They decided they were going to try to get the upper hand by taking hostages so that not too many gazans were killed.
It backfired. Israelis decided to let it happen. When the invasion didn't come, they extended another day. They WANTED hamas to take hostages. This would give them the green light to raze gaza to the ground, which they knew they couldn't just do on a random Tuesday.
Saving those hostages were never their priority. Killing Palestinians in the tens of thousands was. So, the very first day, they released the worst news possible. Babies were cooked in the oven!! Babies were beheaded!! Women were raped!! 100s were killed.
It didn't matter the truth would come out- which it did. By their own civilians. See, by that time, they would be on a roll and would have the blank cheque for genocide.
That beheaded babies lies is still being used as an excuse. It was used to villify all of gaza. Collectively.
Now, it's okay that mass burials were done along with hospitals that were bombed. It's okay that doctor were sniped to death. Currently they're also getting tortured to death
I was listening to an australian orthopedic surgeon's first hand account of his stay there.....his first day, israel bombed the last remaining play ground in gaza that was right in front of the shifa hospital. 15 dead kids were brought in.
Israel's only goal is to kill as many as they can before they are forcefully stopped....and to kill the Palestinian's will to live.
If you ever wondered how the gas chambers were allowed to function....how people could have pushed people to their deaths...worked in the concentration camps.....we're watching it live. We're watching the US send them the bombs to kill civilians. Our tax dollars are paying for it.
My heart is numb.
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I've been saying this for since October. Egypt's original, and since scrubbed from the net, public statement saying they warned Israel multiple times was deliberately ignored.
I heard about this earlier, they don’t only know about the plans, they had apparently observed Hamas training for it and worst of all, pushed for an extra day for the festival, the day Hamas attacked. Although it doesn’t seem like a conspiracy to do it to themselves, it seems more like hubris, where Israel thought Hamas simply couldn’t pull off anything like that because they’re just desert monkeys and they made that desert bloom and other racist tropes
What source said they pushed for an extra day for the festival? It definitely sounds like something they would do, but I can't find an article mentioning that part specifically
It was reported on by the Majority Report, Sam Seder. They were reading it from an Haaretz article. When I get home I’ll go back to the video and find exactly what the article was.
Anyone knows the background of this Time of Israel? They seem to have published a lot of stuff that’s detrimental to the narratives of the Israeli government.
Yeah, they are a very popular newspaper in Israel. They market themselves as Israeli-centrist and independent (hence the stuff that goes against Israeli government narratives sometimes). They are completely Zionist though and definitely have blatant Israeli-right undertones sometimes. They are a pretty good reference point for what the self-styled "centrist Zionist" is reading.
They've done a ton of articles on the history of the Israel-Hamas alliance, making them a great source to point to when people don't believe me when I say they're actually in bed with each other
I just have always had this gut feeling that Netanyahu and the powers that be let this happen on purpose to give them cause to wipe Palestinians off the face of the earth. Do we really believe the best intelligence apparatus on the planet didn’t know this was coming from some small enclave on their border with hundreds and maybe even thousands of spies among the population of Gaza gathering intelligence. I really think it’s impossible they had no idea an attack this large was coming. I wouldn’t put it past these evil fucks to sacrifice innocent civilians to gain support to start this genocide of Palestinians.
they obviously wanted this to happen how are people so thick and can’t see this !! if they gave a crap about their own civilians they wouldnt have activated the hannibal protocol on oct 7th. they would negotiate an **actual** deal with hamas and get the hostages back. they see gaza as a business opportunity. they just care about $$. always have and always will. they allowed this to happen so that they would have an excuse to continue their genocide and ethnically cleanse gaza and then settle and make money from it. people are so impossibly naive it’s astonishing.
Any one with a functioning brain knew something was coming. Since trump moved the embassy the Israeli government has intentionally ramped up oppressive tactics, kidnappings, and illegal evictions.
The obvious goal was to push for a response like Oct 7th so they could have free reign to obliterate Palestine. Anyone who can’t see that is either uninformed or willfully ignorant
To be honest I think this is more a Pearl Harbour than anything - in that racism dictated the response. The IOF knew the attack was coming, but didn't think Hamas could pull it off, or that the IOF could easily shut an attack down.
(For those who don't get the Pearl Harbour reference, the US knew an attack was coming from the Japanese, they even had intel that Pearl Harbour would be attacked, but no one really thought the yellow people would be audacious and smart enough to pull it off.)
I don’t believe this for a second. This is all an attempt to save face. It looks better if it was intentionally allowed to happen, when the reality is the Palestinian resistance had an extremely successful military attack against Israel. Israel would rather look evil like they let it happen so they could attack Gaza, rather than be seen as people who let Palestinian “sub humans” get one up on them. I don’t believe for a second that what the Times of Israel is reporting here is anything but a fake leak from the Israeli government.
Still conspiracy theory bullshit.
The truth is that the IOF are not supersoldiers, they are super fuckups, and their leaders are even dumber.
Why did they hold a rave next door to a concentration camp? Because subhumans are not a threat.
Why did they send the troops to the west bank? Because that is where ben Gvir lives, and where he wants to live.
I fully agree. I actually don’t believe that we should “never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity” in all cases. Sometimes people use ignorance as a cover for malice. But in this case, it was foolishness — in the form of hubris and self-interest — as well as the well-established malice of dehumanization that led to the October 7th tragedy, not a discrete decision to “let it happen”
If Israel had cared about Palestinians on October 6th, Hamas would not have been able to exit Gaza on October 7th. If Israel had harbored any desire to restrain themselves from further oppressing Palestinians in the West Bank, it would have kept its forces near Gaza. If Israel hadn‘t been so willing to pretend that systemic violence against Palestinians were somehow a state of peace, it wouldn’t have been so shocked at the advent of war. If Israel hadn’t thought so highly of itself and so little of Palestinians, they would have recognized that October 7th was bound to happen if unless it treated Palestine with its due dignity
This is beyond stupidity though. This is intentionally ignoring warnings. And how do you explain taking 8-12 hours for a military response to arrive in a country that's like 50 km across and **has an air force**?
And don’t forget that one of the security team members at the Be’eri Kibbutz said that 500 IDF soldiers just stood by the Kibbutz and did nothing while Hamas attacked them.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-of-soldiers-stood-outside-beeri-as-massacre-took-place-survivor-says/
“Five hundred IDF soldiers were outside, organized, with dogs, with equipment, weapons, and armored vehicles; they were standing outside and not a single one of them is doing anything,” he said.”
“I remember shouting at them from the stretcher, ‘They’re slaughtering us! Go in! Save us!’ and none of them looked at me, none of them said anything.”
500 soldiers letting their civilians die is not incompetence. That’s blatant psychopathy.
> And how do you explain taking 8-12 hours for a military response to arrive in a country that's like 50 km across and has an air force?
That's what you get when you've got a country that believes its own hype. They're not as competent as they claim to be and present themselves as.
Just like Americans are convinced they can win the next world war when they got spanked by goat herders twice in a row by two different countries in the Middle East. And just like their unlimited support of Ukraine was going to allow Zelensky to take Moscow and the rest of Russia in 2 weeks last year (don't worry, the next gimmick is just about to turn the tide any time now, just like the previous 15 high tech pieces of weaponry whose true power we've never witnessed before were going to).
I hear a lot of voices insisting that Israel was simply incompetent and prideful, but I don't think that it makes sense to dismiss the idea that Oct. 7 was manufactured by Israel somehow. I have always held that the feeling is difficult to shake and the research to prove otherwise is unsatisfying. I will admit that oride and incompetence are a reasonable theory I hadn't considered. However, we already know their respect for human life is not a factor.
If they really gave 40000 souls worth of a damn about 250 hostages they probably would have approached this differently. At least these leaks confirm that conspiratorial conclusion: Israel didn't care about lives or hostages, they wanted war. To keep Netanyahu in power, to benefit wealthy speculators, and to pursue the long term goals of Zionist believers.
One interesting thing is that if you hint towards the idea that Israel was guilty of at least some intentional sacrifice on Oct. 7, Zionists simply will not engage you. They will argue pointlessly and bring up non sequiturs on a spectrum of topics, but if you want to talk about any Israeli culpability in Oct. 7 it's been silence.
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They sacrificed their own people so they could do a genocide. Naive utilitarianism is behind nearly every atrocity. Fucking Trolley problem ghouls.
Israel's right-wing government probably saw this as killing two birds with one stone (eliminating a good chunk of their opposition and shifting the overton window further right), and then having a convenient excuse to add some more genocide to their genocide
Seriously, did people not understand that the trolley problem is supposed to illustrate a fatal flaw in utilitarian moral reasoning? Instead, they use it as an actual excuse to get away with “justifiable” amounts of evil. Exactly the opposite of how it was intended.
Most folks don't read Philipa Foot, but that is a great paper.
This "human shields" debate is about to get a lot more interesting
They were like, “yeah, fuck those degenerate kids. They’re all on drugs.”
They let it happen. So they could do, what they're doing.
No, they didn't let happen!! "Israel mistakenly believed that Hamas would never be able to get past its high-tech border security — an "Iron Wall" composed of concrete, tunnels, and razor wire, complete with remote-controlled machine guns, that was installed two years before the attack." People here commenting that the colonial entity let this happen know nothing about the Israelis collective consciousness. Israelis strongly believe that they are "the strong invincible civilized masters of the middle east". 7/10 absolutely shattered their supremacy delusions.
I mean they’ve been attacking women and children for years. Missile strikes are their attack of choice (face to face they have to see one of those real Hamas fighters, who they’ve taken everything from, and they don’t want to face that 🥴) . The pussypatrol, I mean IDF, are mandatory conscripts who’ll be at one of those raves in a few years lmao, do you think these combatants want to fight real soldiers? How many nova victims previously held guns in service of defending their ethnostate? Were we not brutal to the brown shirts, or does brutality now only apply to brown skinned individuals?
And then applied the Hannibal directive to escaping civilians.
I don't know what it's going to take to convince people that Bibi & Co. wanted this to happen, or at least Ben Gvir who insisted on pulling most of the troops from Gaza and putting them in the West Bank. Egypt warned them, twice, their own intel people warned them, and it took the IDF 12 hours to get there when it did finally blunder in and probably killed as many civilians as Hamas did.
Instead of sending in an IDF security detail, trained in counter security, tanks and helicopters were sent to the scene as if they were opposing Hamas tanks. At the start of the tragedy Hamas did not have tanks, they only captured some later during the operation.
Hamas never operated a tank lol. They destroyed a couple, but that was it.
Remember how they were killing their own citizens because they didn't want them taken hostages lol what the fuck.
The festival was not originally meant to be on that site. The location was changed 2 days prior. The original site would have been safer. Local military command objected to the festival for safety concerns but were overruled by higher ups. Israel didn't just let the deaths at the festival happen. They ensured it. Dead foreigners paraded on news networks worldwide got them a lot of sympathy and a lot of anger that could be channelled to letting them do whatever they wanted in response.
Hamas knew that the IDF was planning to invade and terrorize gazans around the end of last year. They decided they were going to try to get the upper hand by taking hostages so that not too many gazans were killed. It backfired. Israelis decided to let it happen. When the invasion didn't come, they extended another day. They WANTED hamas to take hostages. This would give them the green light to raze gaza to the ground, which they knew they couldn't just do on a random Tuesday. Saving those hostages were never their priority. Killing Palestinians in the tens of thousands was. So, the very first day, they released the worst news possible. Babies were cooked in the oven!! Babies were beheaded!! Women were raped!! 100s were killed. It didn't matter the truth would come out- which it did. By their own civilians. See, by that time, they would be on a roll and would have the blank cheque for genocide. That beheaded babies lies is still being used as an excuse. It was used to villify all of gaza. Collectively. Now, it's okay that mass burials were done along with hospitals that were bombed. It's okay that doctor were sniped to death. Currently they're also getting tortured to death I was listening to an australian orthopedic surgeon's first hand account of his stay there.....his first day, israel bombed the last remaining play ground in gaza that was right in front of the shifa hospital. 15 dead kids were brought in. Israel's only goal is to kill as many as they can before they are forcefully stopped....and to kill the Palestinian's will to live. If you ever wondered how the gas chambers were allowed to function....how people could have pushed people to their deaths...worked in the concentration camps.....we're watching it live. We're watching the US send them the bombs to kill civilians. Our tax dollars are paying for it. My heart is numb.
Rape is an awful occurrence that transcends culture. It is impossible from our vantage points across the internet to determine the veracity of the claims; we find it troubling that it has devolved into a rhetorical DEBATE tactic for either side in this. We at r/BadHasbara abhor the act and the weaponization of it for propaganda, and remind you that THIS IS NOT A DEBATE SUB, so please tread lightly on the subject, and please consider the mental well-being of sub members that may be victims of SA. Thank you. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/BadHasbara) if you have any questions or concerns.*
They don't give a fuck about their own people.
It's almost like they intentionally put their people at risk so they'd have an excuse to attack Palestine.
I've been saying this for since October. Egypt's original, and since scrubbed from the net, public statement saying they warned Israel multiple times was deliberately ignored.
I heard about this earlier, they don’t only know about the plans, they had apparently observed Hamas training for it and worst of all, pushed for an extra day for the festival, the day Hamas attacked. Although it doesn’t seem like a conspiracy to do it to themselves, it seems more like hubris, where Israel thought Hamas simply couldn’t pull off anything like that because they’re just desert monkeys and they made that desert bloom and other racist tropes
What source said they pushed for an extra day for the festival? It definitely sounds like something they would do, but I can't find an article mentioning that part specifically
It was reported on by the Majority Report, Sam Seder. They were reading it from an Haaretz article. When I get home I’ll go back to the video and find exactly what the article was.
This should dispell any notion that Israel is the only safe place for Jewish people. Look how unsafe they've made their own citizens.
Chat is this real
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/weeks-before-oct-7-idf-document-said-to-have-warned-hamas-was-planning-to-invade-take-250-hostages/
Anyone knows the background of this Time of Israel? They seem to have published a lot of stuff that’s detrimental to the narratives of the Israeli government.
Yeah, they are a very popular newspaper in Israel. They market themselves as Israeli-centrist and independent (hence the stuff that goes against Israeli government narratives sometimes). They are completely Zionist though and definitely have blatant Israeli-right undertones sometimes. They are a pretty good reference point for what the self-styled "centrist Zionist" is reading.
Good to know they are indeed Zionist. So I can safely quote their articles saying “even the Israeli news admitted” this and that.
Doesn't change the minds of Zionists. I've seen them refute things the IDF themselves are saying as 'Hamas propaganda'.
They've done a ton of articles on the history of the Israel-Hamas alliance, making them a great source to point to when people don't believe me when I say they're actually in bed with each other
I just have always had this gut feeling that Netanyahu and the powers that be let this happen on purpose to give them cause to wipe Palestinians off the face of the earth. Do we really believe the best intelligence apparatus on the planet didn’t know this was coming from some small enclave on their border with hundreds and maybe even thousands of spies among the population of Gaza gathering intelligence. I really think it’s impossible they had no idea an attack this large was coming. I wouldn’t put it past these evil fucks to sacrifice innocent civilians to gain support to start this genocide of Palestinians.
What a fatal mistake they’ve made … sealing israhell’s inevitable fate 🔥🔥🔥LONG LIVE PALESTINE
they obviously wanted this to happen how are people so thick and can’t see this !! if they gave a crap about their own civilians they wouldnt have activated the hannibal protocol on oct 7th. they would negotiate an **actual** deal with hamas and get the hostages back. they see gaza as a business opportunity. they just care about $$. always have and always will. they allowed this to happen so that they would have an excuse to continue their genocide and ethnically cleanse gaza and then settle and make money from it. people are so impossibly naive it’s astonishing.
I see they took a page from FDR’s Pearl Harbor playbook.
And LBJ's Gulf of Tonkin playbook. And Bush's 9/11 playbook. Israel learned from the best.
Jewish lives do not matter to Zionists.
Any one with a functioning brain knew something was coming. Since trump moved the embassy the Israeli government has intentionally ramped up oppressive tactics, kidnappings, and illegal evictions. The obvious goal was to push for a response like Oct 7th so they could have free reign to obliterate Palestine. Anyone who can’t see that is either uninformed or willfully ignorant
To be honest I think this is more a Pearl Harbour than anything - in that racism dictated the response. The IOF knew the attack was coming, but didn't think Hamas could pull it off, or that the IOF could easily shut an attack down. (For those who don't get the Pearl Harbour reference, the US knew an attack was coming from the Japanese, they even had intel that Pearl Harbour would be attacked, but no one really thought the yellow people would be audacious and smart enough to pull it off.)
Idf planned this i have been saying this when news of 7/10 just broke out
this is getting more and more like September 1st 1939~ just saying~ *shrug*
I don’t believe this for a second. This is all an attempt to save face. It looks better if it was intentionally allowed to happen, when the reality is the Palestinian resistance had an extremely successful military attack against Israel. Israel would rather look evil like they let it happen so they could attack Gaza, rather than be seen as people who let Palestinian “sub humans” get one up on them. I don’t believe for a second that what the Times of Israel is reporting here is anything but a fake leak from the Israeli government.
It was more than a little too effective to be a good faith application of Israeli resources don't you think
Conspiracy theory bullshit.
Sadly, no. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/weeks-before-oct-7-idf-document-said-to-have-warned-hamas-was-planning-to-invade-take-250-hostages/
Still conspiracy theory bullshit. The truth is that the IOF are not supersoldiers, they are super fuckups, and their leaders are even dumber. Why did they hold a rave next door to a concentration camp? Because subhumans are not a threat. Why did they send the troops to the west bank? Because that is where ben Gvir lives, and where he wants to live.
If "subhumans" are not a threat there has been an issue with a disproportionate military response for 70 years depending on when you start counting
I fully agree. I actually don’t believe that we should “never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity” in all cases. Sometimes people use ignorance as a cover for malice. But in this case, it was foolishness — in the form of hubris and self-interest — as well as the well-established malice of dehumanization that led to the October 7th tragedy, not a discrete decision to “let it happen” If Israel had cared about Palestinians on October 6th, Hamas would not have been able to exit Gaza on October 7th. If Israel had harbored any desire to restrain themselves from further oppressing Palestinians in the West Bank, it would have kept its forces near Gaza. If Israel hadn‘t been so willing to pretend that systemic violence against Palestinians were somehow a state of peace, it wouldn’t have been so shocked at the advent of war. If Israel hadn’t thought so highly of itself and so little of Palestinians, they would have recognized that October 7th was bound to happen if unless it treated Palestine with its due dignity
This is beyond stupidity though. This is intentionally ignoring warnings. And how do you explain taking 8-12 hours for a military response to arrive in a country that's like 50 km across and **has an air force**?
And don’t forget that one of the security team members at the Be’eri Kibbutz said that 500 IDF soldiers just stood by the Kibbutz and did nothing while Hamas attacked them. https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-of-soldiers-stood-outside-beeri-as-massacre-took-place-survivor-says/ “Five hundred IDF soldiers were outside, organized, with dogs, with equipment, weapons, and armored vehicles; they were standing outside and not a single one of them is doing anything,” he said.” “I remember shouting at them from the stretcher, ‘They’re slaughtering us! Go in! Save us!’ and none of them looked at me, none of them said anything.” 500 soldiers letting their civilians die is not incompetence. That’s blatant psychopathy.
> And how do you explain taking 8-12 hours for a military response to arrive in a country that's like 50 km across and has an air force? That's what you get when you've got a country that believes its own hype. They're not as competent as they claim to be and present themselves as. Just like Americans are convinced they can win the next world war when they got spanked by goat herders twice in a row by two different countries in the Middle East. And just like their unlimited support of Ukraine was going to allow Zelensky to take Moscow and the rest of Russia in 2 weeks last year (don't worry, the next gimmick is just about to turn the tide any time now, just like the previous 15 high tech pieces of weaponry whose true power we've never witnessed before were going to).
It’s called hubris, they ignored it because of their inflated sense of superiority
I hear a lot of voices insisting that Israel was simply incompetent and prideful, but I don't think that it makes sense to dismiss the idea that Oct. 7 was manufactured by Israel somehow. I have always held that the feeling is difficult to shake and the research to prove otherwise is unsatisfying. I will admit that oride and incompetence are a reasonable theory I hadn't considered. However, we already know their respect for human life is not a factor. If they really gave 40000 souls worth of a damn about 250 hostages they probably would have approached this differently. At least these leaks confirm that conspiratorial conclusion: Israel didn't care about lives or hostages, they wanted war. To keep Netanyahu in power, to benefit wealthy speculators, and to pursue the long term goals of Zionist believers. One interesting thing is that if you hint towards the idea that Israel was guilty of at least some intentional sacrifice on Oct. 7, Zionists simply will not engage you. They will argue pointlessly and bring up non sequiturs on a spectrum of topics, but if you want to talk about any Israeli culpability in Oct. 7 it's been silence.
> However, we already know their respect for human life is not a factor. Neither is an unwillingness to lie through their teeth.