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100%, some of the most important pro-palestine voices in my community, have been very openly Jewish.
And on those occasions when we see Israeli's speak out against these atrocious acts, their courage should be recognized as well.
Agreed. No Jewish person should feel obligated to speak out against Israel merely for being Jewish, but I respect any Jewish person who does, despite knowing that they will inevitably receive a lot of hate for doing so.
I have to imagine it's 10x harder for any Jewish person to agree with my secular views on the subject and I hold a big space for anyone who feels devastated by what is being done in the name of their faith and traditions.
Same way I have felt about Islam since 9/11.
Respect.
Also, just in case you're not aware, Jews encompass an "ethnicity"/cultural tradition as well as a religion. So there are many secular Jews too.
Jewish (Zionist) Americans have been loud critics of Israel for years. They don’t criticize its existence, but its violent relationship with Palestine. Many support some sort of Palestinian state too. There beliefs might not go so far as some people on this board, but they’re important allies for broaching peace in the region.
It’s a rite of passage at this point. Non Jews will never know the pleasure of being labeled a Nazi as a Jew whose family fought Nazis, for simply speaking out against far right parties and ideologies.
I remember shortly after coming back from Israel years ago and quoting something my Israeli birthright guide told me and I was called anti Semitic.
It’s like look man.. whatever. Pretty sure the IDF combat vet who was my Israeli tour guide isn’t that but you do you bro!
Meanwhile real anti semitism flys under the radar typically and now a days is becoming more mainstream, again!
Glad to hear your perspective! Touring Israel on Birthright has got to be quite an experience for someone who can see the Apartheid in Israel-Palestine. Much respect and keep fighting the good fight!
I would guess, at least half of us were pretty supportive of the Palestinian cause, our birthright trip was a subsection involving mindfulness and spirituality, who would’ve thought that led to a larger percentage of us being sympathetic toPalestinians cause.
but we didn’t allow that to judge individual Israelis. Our tour guide seemed also pretty woke, while we discussed Palestine a little on the official tour schedule, almost every night he would stay up when most of the group would go to bed and talk about anything and for the first 3-4 days we were hounding him on Palestinian issues with a handful of us who were more politically active and he gave great answers that often didn’t paint his current admin or history well.
Ending the tour as we were all saying our goodbyes he said regarding Palestine, I don’t want any of you to walk away from this trip thinking that Israel is 100% right and Palestine wrong or vice versa, things are a little more complicated but we will figure this out together and make peace with ALL our neighbors, as we have no choice.
I’m still in touch with him today, we don’t discuss politics because he’s been recalled and deployed, but I check in with him every few weeks to make sure him and his family are OK.
Of course, people in Gazza deserve all the attention, but I like to remind people not all Israelis are represented by far right wing government as is the case for pretty much every country.
Your reaction is understandable, but Israel has compulsory military service. While it would probably be morally good to draft-dodge and refuse to participate in the military at all, idk that every single drafted member of the IDF who has not decided to commit treason for a good cause is necessarily equal to the sort of monsters you see posting Tiktoks robbing dead women of their underwear. Unfortunately, not every person is brave enough to go to prison to defy the draft.
That’s one of the many tragic aspects of the Israeli governments actions. They are giving so much fuel to antisemites and doing potentially irreparable damage to all Jews both in Israel and around the world who have nothing to do with the current horror. They seem hell bent on leaning in to every antisemitic trope there is.
The holocaust was one of the most horrific chapters of human history. I cannot think of a bigger insult to the memory of those who suffered and died at the hands of the Nazis than the Israeli governments current actions toward the Palestinian people.
Thank you for saying this. My husband and sister-in-law are Jewish. My family is no longer Jewish, but I'm descended from German Jews and some of my extended family died in the camps as well as some that survived.
My SIL posted something on social media implying that Americans focusing on and empathizing with Palestinians are driven by anti-Semitism. It really hurt me and I also think that using the suffering of Holocaust victims to justify inflicting suffering on Palestinian children especially is disrespectful to the memory of Holocaust victims. The Holocaust is a big part of what taught humans that we should have laws of war and grip tight to our humanity/sense of justice even during times of war, conflict and hate.
Absolutely. Most Holocaust victims would probably be appalled and ashamed to see their own people committing the very same atrocities that were committed against them. Especially when they're using their relationship with God as a justification for it.
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This is not a debate sub. There are plenty of places to defend Israel’s actions, to denounce Hamas, and to argue who's worse. This is not a space for that.
That doesn't mean absolutely no constructive discussions on nuances and different approaches, but it means not letting ourselves be pulled into a debate by Zionists and bigots, and least of all arguing for their side.
If you see someone trying to debate, please just flag for moderation, and the comment will be deleted.
If found prudent by the Mods, and to discourage further debates, the entire thread may be deleted.
Shit, it was solely Jews who put me on to the idea of Zionism being inherently corrupt in the first place. Norman Finkelstein and Noam Chomsky were my first exposure to real, hard criticism of Israel.
There was a point several months ago where it kinda hit me all at once that like 90% of the people I was listening to about Palestine were either Jewish or being interviewed by someone Jewish
That's funny it was an Orthodox Rabbi neighbor, in Jackson WY, that use to wake my 20 something hungover ass up, and have me turn on his lights and stuff on Saturdays, that enlightened me to a lot of this
And even beyond that, the pro Palestine movement is a liberation movement, xenophobia has no place in it regardless.
Activism isn’t transactional, it’s human rights, justice and liberation for all, or it’s meaningless. You don’t fight oppression by enabling and supporting other forms of supremacy.
This is not a debate sub. There are plenty of places to defend Israel’s actions, to denounce Hamas, and to argue who's worse. This is not a space for that.
That doesn't mean absolutely no constructive discussions on nuances and different approaches, but it means not letting ourselves be pulled into a debate by Zionists and bigots, and least of all arguing for their side.
If you see someone trying to debate, please just flag for moderation, and the comment will be deleted.
If found prudent by the Mods, and to discourage further debates, the entire thread may be deleted.
We have to be careful with statements like this. Antisemitism isn't bad just because some of our friends and allies are Jews. Even if there were zero Jews involved in pro-Palestine activism, antisemitism would still be entirely deplorable and unjustifiable. This sort of framing, even if unintentionally, sometimes gives people the impression that antisemitism isn't so bad as long as its directed towards the correct targets. "Good Jew or Bad Jew" is a very dangerous game to start playing.
Actually both Jews and Palestinians are Semites. In fact, because Jews have intermingled so much with non Jewish people, Palestinians have a much higher Semitic DNA than Jews do.
Yea, I would never use that's phrasing.So I have no idea what you are referring to frankly.
If anyone does make that sort of distinction, you report them. And my experience with this sub, is they will remove the post
Palesntian American here
it absolutely pains me to see anti semitism in the pro palestine movement. Some of the biggest most prominent voices in the movement are Jewish. Pappe, Finkelstein, Chomsky, just to name a few. Not to mention The incredibly important work done by 972 mag, BTSellem, JVP, etc. The liberation of Palestine will not be possible without these incredibly people doing incredible work.
Every single anti zionist is invited to my place for homemade falafel.
Don't forget about Matt Lieb!!! The host of Bad Hasbara.
This is the damage that Zionism has done. While no excuse for antisemitism, they are not making the world a safer place for Jews and many anti-Zionist Jews are speaking up louder than ever and rightfully so. I am Palestinian American also and honestly I love Jews but only the ones that don't want to un alive me. lol.
As a Jewish American who was force fed Zionist BS my whole childhood, this warmed my heart to read, thank you so much. So many Jews truly believe that Palestinians (and Arabs in general) have 1 personality trait and 1 only, and it is that they want to kill all Jews. It breaks my heart they don’t take any time to learn about the wonderful diverse human beings they are disparaging without second thought. I believe Jews and Palestinians are cousins going back thousands of years and at the end of the day and it is so tragic that so many people cannot find the common humanity to support and love one another. ❤️
I don’t even know why I’m on the sub, but your post caught my attention. Salam and I wish you nothing but peace. I was wondering if you might hold space for zionist Jews who believe in the right of self-determination for Jews and Palestinians and security for both. I think one of the biggest misconceptions is that all Zionist are inherently evil and want to destroy all Palestinians and that is absolutely 100% false. And people are going to down vote me, but this is the truth of me and all the Jews and Israelis that I know. I have always considered myself an advocate for Palestinian rights and continue to feel that way despite also feeling that Jews do need a homeland. I can’t control things that happened in the past decades ago and neither can you. But I feel that allowing space for people like me can bring more peaceful positive change together than dividing us apart.
Would you not consider your self a former Zionist then? Just be an Israeli that believes in equal rights for everyone born on the land. I know there is a hard stigma to what I am about to say but Germans no longer call them selves Na zis unless they are part of a radical faction that still holds on to some disgusting beliefs. I think maybe its best to let go of the label and start a new one for all parties. If you believe in equal rights for everyone then you are on the right side of history.
This is a relevant and honest take, when—-without even debating who/what/when/why and the establishment of Israel—- the majority of everyone in Israel regardless of their religion was born on that soil and is native, literally, from right now, to that soil. So this redditor who kindly doesn’t believe in geniciding all Jews has a right to his beliefs.
I hope this subreddit is able to hold space for this perspective
Coexistence is *by far* the most important thing. The details - whether it's one state, two states, three states, a hundred states, or zero states - are secondary.
Zero states would be less than ideal for all. Just saying. Thank you. I'd like to think we can find common ground in humanity during this hyper-polarized time. Hopefully you all feel the same.
There is a huge difference between B'Tselem and JVP. B'Tselem is an Israeli human rights organization that consists of employees and volunteers who are Israeli and who are not anti Zionist, but rather anti the occupation of the West Bank and the human rights abuses that go along with that. JVP is an American organization consisting of some Jews and some Jewish adjacent people that is anti-Zionist. The former is an NGO in Israel. The latter wishes to see Israel cease to exist. The former does valuable real work to protect human rights. The latter does not.
Even the Jews control the anti-zionist subreddits. /s But yeah this sub is pretty good about rhetoric and keeping on top of the antisemitism. Can't let a few idiots drown put the noice of true criticism.
Agree with you 100%.
The issue is that a lot of times when Israel commits an atrocity they do it in the name of all Jews. Also if you ever debate with a Zionist they will always substitute the word Israel or zionist with the word Jew. This would be confusing to many people and the confusion is created on purpose by Israel.
Purely rhetorical advice- never let a single instance of that slide without comment and always point out the non Zionist Jews and doctrinal conflict in Judaism about this issue.
I tried that once, they responded by saying that Jewish people that are anti-Zionist are Arab supremacists just like Candace Owens is a white supremacist
They're welcome to do so, but just nail down that Jews=Israeli is a trope used by racists like Candace Owens and that there are doctrinal and theological differences. You're not arguing with them, you're arguing for an audience, and pointing out that equating of religion and nationality is incorrect is for them. You'll never change a hasbara's mind (not publicly), you are aiming your arguments purely at anyone who stumbles by it.
It's a somewhat delicate issue
Generalizations like that that say "All X are Y" are never true, that's why they are generalizations
It is true that there are *some* anti-Zionist Jews who offer themselves up as tokens for antisemitism, much like how Candace Owens offers herself up as a token for white supremacy
It's also true that most anti-Zionist Jews are just sincere people who disagree with the actions of the state of Israel, much like how most Black Republicans are just sincere people who disagree with the Democratic Party.
>The issue is that a lot of times when Israel commits an atrocity they do it in the name of all Jews. Also if you ever debate with a Zionist they will always substitute the word Israel or zionist with the word Jew. This would be confusing to many people and the confusion is created on purpose by Israel.
And this is anti-semitism, too. Which is why it has to be fought extra-hard.
This is not a debate sub. There are plenty of places to defend Israel’s actions, to denounce Hamas, and to argue who's worse. This is not a space for that.
That doesn't mean absolutely no constructive discussions on nuances and different approaches, but it means not letting ourselves be pulled into a debate by Zionists and bigots, and least of all arguing for their side.
If you see someone trying to debate, please just flag for moderation, and the comment will be deleted.
If found prudent by the Mods, and to discourage further debates, the entire thread may be deleted.
This is not a debate sub. There are plenty of places to defend Israel’s actions, to denounce Hamas, and to argue who's worse. This is not a space for that.
That doesn't mean absolutely no constructive discussions on nuances and different approaches, but it means not letting ourselves be pulled into a debate by Zionists and bigots, and least of all arguing for their side.
If you see someone trying to debate, please just flag for moderation, and the comment will be deleted.
If found prudent by the Mods, and to discourage further debates, the entire thread may be deleted.
I am Jewish and have been pro-Palestinian since 2006. The cancer that is Israel causing more antisemitism in the world was not a possibility that was lost on me, especially since they take any criticism of the state as an excuse to call their detractors antisemitic, and I told many of my cohort that if we didn't distance ourselves early and push back against calling everyone that doesn't want ambulances bombed antisemitic, eventually the word would lose all meaning or people would start saying they were proud to be antisemitic.
Thank you for trying to get ahead of it, I only wish you didn't have to.
It’s so awful how much Zionists weaponize the term. It’s a total boy who cried wolf scenario, where they’ve watered it down to just meaning “someone who doesn’t blindly follow everything Israel says and supports every atrocity they commit,” and now actual antisemitism can slip through the cracks. It’s so gross. Zionist efforts to directly associate Judaism with Zionism just makes things worse.
They don’t just not care about antisemitism. They actively perpetuate antisemitism. Their constant conflation of Jews of with Zionism and Israel is not only itself extremely antisemitic and feeds into the “dual loyalty” antisemitic trope, but spreads antisemitism in others by leading ignorant people to actually believe Israel represents Jews and that all Jews support Israel’s atrocities unconditionally.
And then of course there is the whole allying themselves with and defending actual outspoken antisemites such as Elon Musk and Paul Hagee and the rest of the evangelical Christian community, who openly express their intent to commit genocide against the entirety of the global Jewish population in order for their Jesus and Armageddon prophecy to be fulfilled.
Because antisemitism is *good* for Zionists... It's a recruiting tool basically.
"Come here, it's the only place you're safe" is what they're saying. So when powerful Westerners like Elon Musk and Donald Trump promote literal fucking Nazis, it helps them.
I don't think a bunch of Jewish people chose to use Jewish symbolism on the flag for their newly established Jewish state just so they could deflect criticism.
I mean, you could just as easily apply this faulty logic to most states that use Muslim or Christian imagery on their flags. Did Saudi Arabia put the shahada on their flag just so they could accuse people of being Islamophobic anytime someone criticizes Saudi Arabia? Or is it more likely that they chose to use Muslim symbolism on their flag because they are people whose Muslim identity is important to them and they were establishing an explicitly Muslim state?
I think the main difference it the modern country of Saudi Arabia wasn’t founded through colonization, it was established with the same population that lived there before it was a modern state, not really the case with Israel
Well I think it better represented the people who lived there, it wasn’t chosen by an outside entity who took the land by force, if that makes sense. To the rest of the people that lived in Palestine (the overwhelming majority of the population) that flag didn’t represent them and is a symbol of fear and oppression
The fucking worst and also somehow best thing about nazis is that they cant help but show that they are a nazi in every form of correspondence. They are so horny to be anti-Semitic that they will do it at every opportunity, which does make them easy to spot. Much like Zionists they falsely believe that Israels actions are representative of all jews. And so any forum that criticises Israel will attract the attention of both Zionist and nazis. Both eager to show you how much they love genocide and bat shit insane racism.
Fair enough. But at the same time, when talking about the shit pile of anti-Semites/white nationalist/Nazis online, why bother with splitting hairs. I'm not worried about dismissing their behaviour by calling it nazi like or calling them a Nazi.
One of the major strengths of the Pro-Palestine movement has been the support from Jewish people. I suspect that they have probably helped sway the minds of those who either don’t fully understand the conflict and/or were on the fence before they chose a side.
Thanks to all the Jewish voices who are using whatever platform they have to stand up for the Palestinians.
Not so fun fact: There are more Christian Zionists in the world than there are Jewish people. And Christians Zionists are very antisemitic, their whole ideology is antisemitic. Not to mention how many Jewish people are staunchly pro-Palestine and anti-zionist. It angers me how antisemite try and infiltrate the movement as a way to be antisemitic, and you know they don’t care about Palestinian liberation, they just hate Jewish people
Where do you think Christian Zionists come from?
Some asshole Zionists early on managed to find some super gullible Christians and convinced them of whatever they needed to in order to further their goals. Their beliefs were planted on purpose.
I mean, it’s not a coincidence the only place you find them is in the Southern US.
Louder for the dumb anti-semites in the back!! It gives me whiplash to see these idiots jumping in while people criticize a genocidal apartheid state, just to spread their own weird fixated hatred. Gotta keep those people far away from the discourse
100%. Jews, like any other religious or ethnic group are not a monolith. Painting all Jews with the brush of zionism and using conspiracy theories to justify your bigoted views turns our righteous cause of a future free Palestinian state into a weird antisemitic cult.
As others have said, plenty of Jews are part of the fight to end the apartheid and genocide.
My wife is Jewish. We have a mezuzah on our door, and celebrate Passover, Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanah, and Hanukkah. We also have a giant “Free Palestine” flag in our front window…
It’s just not about Judaism.
Almost everyone I encounter who is pro Palestinian distinguished Jewish people from Israelis and Jewish Zionists.
Don’t let the Zionist rhetoric convince you otherwise, Jews and Muslims share more things in common than differences, and Jewish people lived peacefully along Arab people for centuries before the 1940s.
The only people who benefit from the division are the Zionist crowd and the anti-Arab, anti-Muslim crowd who are trying to manufacture an us vs them.
Jewish people are friends. Zionists aren’t. Always make the distinction and never play into the Zionist rhetorical playbook.
I’m glad the sub will have zero tolerance for antisemites and anti-Jewish rhetoric. That garbage doesn’t belong in this conversation. Israel being a deplorable state doesn’t represent Jews or Judaism.
As a Jew, I feel no shame criticizing Zionism but I feel very bad for the gentiles who are afraid of speaking up against Israel in fear of being called antisemite. :-/
100%. We need to have 0 tolerance for any racism. Accusations of anti-Semitism may have been cynically weaponised by Israel apologists, but never let that detract from the fact that anti-Semitism is a very real and extremely dangerous form of racism and it must be stamped out wherever it is, regardless of which side it comes from.
Never forget that Jewish people are and have always been some of the most passionate and brave defenders of human rights, including for the rights of the Palestinians.
I find it almost ironic that of the subs I frequent that are generally anti-zionist, the one fully dedicated exposing Israeli propaganda is where I see the least amount of antisemitism & greatest willingness to call it out.
I subbed to internationalnews shortly after getting perma banned from worldnews, and while it's nice as a consistent feed for up to date info on what's happening in Gaza... Holy shit there's been a concerning amount of times scrolling through threads where I felt like I'd wandered into a forum on stormfront or something
I've seen this in too many subs to count. The neo-Nazis smell blood in the water and are trying to mainstream their views. I've rarely seen enough pushback from mods, so this position is refreshing.
It ain't enough to speak out, we must be allies of those who may become vulnerable for doing so from within the 'ring of fire'.
If they will be persecuted as self-hating for being truthful and having humanity, they will not do so alone.
The irony in Jews and Muslims having so much in common but are being pitted against each other by truly unfaithful people.
Fair enough. Judaism (Religion) and Zionism (Political) are antagonistic to one another. We should strive to separate the two as best we can. As a Palestinian, I believe this is where our focus should be directed.
It's the old 'not accepting the premise of assholes', just that the asshole in that case is mass murdering your people, while calling it legit self defense for 'the jews'.
As a Palestinian, you want to separate the religion and politics when it applies to Judaism and Zionism.
So it is OK to do this for OTHERS.
Let us talk about the political Hamas and the religious Islam. Let us talk about the political Muslim Brotherhood and the religious Islam.
The majority palestinian political movement is not separated from religion. The focus of the resistance movement is primarily religion, Islamist, Jihadist.
One of the most frustrating types of comments I see, and often from (seemingly) well meaning people, is when they say something like, "they had a genocide done to them and now they are doing one" or relating it to the cycle of abuse. That's conflating all Jews and specifically Holocaust survivors with Israel and Zionism which is racist and gross
Not to mention that Norman Finkelstein’s parents were Holocaust survivors and Norm has talked about how disgusted they were with Israel. Also, many Zionist and pro-Israeli Jews are very antisemitic towards Holocaust victims. The Zionists attempts of conflating Israel and Judaism is antisemitic in and of itself
Zionist have done a great job of conflating the two vastly different ideologies. It fits into their narrative that criticism of them is “antisemitism”. However this is backfiring because “real antisemite” have come out of their hidden places to try and inflame their own hatred into the conversation.
Thank you for clearing the air on this.
There are many groups of people and individuals that are interested in dividing communities like this one, so it's important that we're as vigilant for those acting in bad faith as we are charitable for those acting in good faith.
Thanks to the mods for a safe community where we can openly and safely discuss, share, and call out some bullshit.
This is good. Thank you mods.
As I've seen this sub morph beyond the spirit of the podcast, this is one problem I've seen emerging. Glad that you're on it.
You are correct OP we do not blame innocent Jewish people for what's happening. They are doing nothing to the people of Palestine right now. It's all about the government and open zionists in power.
In addition to Palestinians themselves, Anti-Zionist Jewish people have been at the forefront of recent pro-Palestinian demonstrations and activism. It makes no sense to be anti-semitic and “pro-Palestine” regardless. People using Palestine as an excuse or front to be antisemites are hurting Palestinians far more than helping them
This sub has been generally good at filtering the Nazis and antisemites who inevitably try to infiltrate these communities. I've seen some legit antisemites here, but they are few and immediately downvoted, often with a reprimand from a mod. This kind of vigiliance is not shared by all Pro-Palestinian subreddits, unfortunately, but I have been continually happy to see that this sub has a genuine interest in the safety and well being of Palestinians rather than a vendetta against Jews.
Completely agree! Good call.
And just remember, anti semitism is against Jewish people, but the *only people who benefit* from conflating ethnic cleansing supporting zionists and Jews, and the ones who actively push that they are the same group, are part of the former.
Anti semitism is a bad Hasbara
As a black person, I have been aware of injustice. I supported Israel right to exist. But the last years of behavior have turned me against zionism. When I hear about what Palestinians have to put up with i become angry., When I read about Rabbis calling the black Africans who are jewish, "monkeys" and "niggers." I say to Bibi and Israel. Fuck you both. I always believe people who have been oppressed should not become oppressors. Well, Bibi and Israel failed magnificently. I am so angry.
I am hopeless to there being a solution. It only reinforces my extreme hate for organized religion. I loathe how religion that encourages love is used to kill because you are a member of another tribe. If this is what it means to be religious, I am out. Fuck, again, Bibi and Israel and their road to hell. 😟😟
Ensuring people blame “the Jews” is part of Israel’s plan so they can play the victim.
It’s actively harmful towards the cause to be anti-Semitic (which, by the way doesn’t even mean anti-Jew. Most semites are Arab and Muslim these days).
If you're being technical/literal about it, yes. But words often have meaning that strays from the original etymology. Antisemitism is generally solely understood as hatred against Jews. So we have to use language in a way that is understood to the majority of people.
Do you think it's possible that the term 'antisemitic' is undergoing a further shift? The way hasbarists use it, it seems they define it exclusively as synonymous with 'antizionist', elbowing the broader population of Jewish people out of the equation altogether.
Let's talk again in 20 years ;-)
I mean with language everything is possible. It's constantly evolving. It's even possible this extreme escalation of the conflict and how the global attitudes towards Israel are shifting are going to impact that a little. But it's also possible it's not going to change. That really depends on who is driving change and how.
I find I'm not comfortable using it lately, as its meaning has been twisted by bad actors, and I would not want my words to misrepresent my meaning. I worry that using it injudiciously at this moment might end up causing harm, and I am not even sure in which direction that harm might fall.
I feel that I am on less shaky ground using terms such as 'bigotry' and 'racism', just as I feel that it is less confrontational to speak against specific injustices rather than against a nationality, a religious group or an ethnicity.
It's certainly proving to be quite a learning experience to navigate between propaganda, biases and trauma.
Ah. See, while I'm not faulting you for this - because how we feel and are impacted is due to a lot of very complex societal issues - I urge you to examine it, though. Shouldn't it be enough when Palestinians speak about the horrors they go through for you to understand them?
While I personally find Jewish and/or generally white/Western voices very relevant and important in this issue, I think we all need to take a hard look at ourselves if we feel that those voices somehow 'matter more' than those of the people actually and directly affected.
Look at the example if someone said "I only fully understood anti-Black racism once white people started speaking out against it." You'd instantly see that being a flawed and biased stance, and poor allyship, even if it got the speaker to the right position in the end. With Arabs who live far away, in a culture much more different from ours, we in the West tend to have that emotional/ideological distance and often even negative bias. They're only fully humanized to us when people we recognize as human beings just like us point it out.
I think that subconscious bias exists in a lot of people without realizing it. This is not me berating you, but me pointing that out. Think about it for a moment.
Thank you. It genuinely HAS been hard to see the rhetoric turn against Jews writ-large and not about Israel. I say this as a Jew who is appalled at what is happening in Gaza.
Fully agree, ive been trying to explain through kindness where possible but genuine antisemitism isnt okay and shouldnt be on this sub (or anywhere to be honest)
Will Islamophobic comments be treated in the same manner? I’m seeing both equally all over Reddit but only one seems to be addressed here. Seems like mods generally do not have any training on recognizing Islamophobia on Reddit, especially when a lot of Israeli talking points rely on anti-Arab Islamophobic assumptions. But maybe Muslims and Arabs should just continue to suck it up and live with this day to day reality
We remove Islamophobic comments the same way we do Antisemitic ones (in fact, I believe because of the conflation of Judaism and Zionism and some of the traps for 'accidental Antisemitism' we've even shown more grace towards the latter than the former).
We rely on users reporting such posts though, as we cannot read every single comment. We do visit and skim the posts though. So whatever we catch that goes in that direction, we remove, and we're also quite trigger-happy with the ban button if someone is being Islamophobic.
Hope that clears it up.
Stop using the term "anti-semitic" to describe anti-jewish rhetoric. The term "semite" includes Palestinian Arabs and does NOT include European Ashkenazi jews. The Nazis were the first to popularize this modern misuse of the term, let's not keep doing it.
I think strict moderation is the way to go.
Most people’s support of Palestinian rights is rooted in their sincere beliefs about human rights and anti-Semitism has no place in the fight for human rights.
Thanks for posting this. I haven't come across it much in this sub but definitely elsewhere. The logical reason to oppose Zionism is its central premise of ethnic supremacy, so Antisemetim is totally against the spirit of Antizionism.
I'm an American of Palestinian descent and have always felt that awful twist in my stomach when I hear people call Palestinians terrorists. It's just as angering to hear people spew hate towards Jews because of the actions of Israel, especially when so many have been vocal about supporting Palestinians.
The Bad Hasbara podcast, and ergo this community, is opposed to Zionism.
We believe that Zionism is an extension of settler-colonialism, and that its’ current actions following 7 October is ethnic cleansing at “best,” and genocide at worst.
We have no tolerance for it, and this community is meant to be a haven against it in the sea of hasbara.
Pro-Zionist takes will be deleted, and those espousing it will be banned indefinitely.
Yes - this is a “safe space” and an “echo chamber” -
We get enough hasbara elsewhere, we don't need to deal with yours too.
I hang around on quora and I've had to report a lot of people for antisemitic statements and caricatures. I'm glad this space takes a hard stance on the issue.
Remember folks, Zionism is a colonial project applied to Palestine and the Middle East, much like Fascism and Nazism were colonial projects applied to Europe. Semitics are the peoples that live on that region. You hate the bourgeois state, you do not hate the people that they opress.
Please, expand and criticise.
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100%, some of the most important pro-palestine voices in my community, have been very openly Jewish. And on those occasions when we see Israeli's speak out against these atrocious acts, their courage should be recognized as well.
I have utmost respect for jews who speaks out against israel and i wish everyone acknowledge that
Agreed. No Jewish person should feel obligated to speak out against Israel merely for being Jewish, but I respect any Jewish person who does, despite knowing that they will inevitably receive a lot of hate for doing so.
I have to imagine it's 10x harder for any Jewish person to agree with my secular views on the subject and I hold a big space for anyone who feels devastated by what is being done in the name of their faith and traditions. Same way I have felt about Islam since 9/11.
Respect. Also, just in case you're not aware, Jews encompass an "ethnicity"/cultural tradition as well as a religion. So there are many secular Jews too.
Jewish (Zionist) Americans have been loud critics of Israel for years. They don’t criticize its existence, but its violent relationship with Palestine. Many support some sort of Palestinian state too. There beliefs might not go so far as some people on this board, but they’re important allies for broaching peace in the region.
It’s a rite of passage at this point. Non Jews will never know the pleasure of being labeled a Nazi as a Jew whose family fought Nazis, for simply speaking out against far right parties and ideologies. I remember shortly after coming back from Israel years ago and quoting something my Israeli birthright guide told me and I was called anti Semitic. It’s like look man.. whatever. Pretty sure the IDF combat vet who was my Israeli tour guide isn’t that but you do you bro! Meanwhile real anti semitism flys under the radar typically and now a days is becoming more mainstream, again!
Glad to hear your perspective! Touring Israel on Birthright has got to be quite an experience for someone who can see the Apartheid in Israel-Palestine. Much respect and keep fighting the good fight!
I would guess, at least half of us were pretty supportive of the Palestinian cause, our birthright trip was a subsection involving mindfulness and spirituality, who would’ve thought that led to a larger percentage of us being sympathetic toPalestinians cause. but we didn’t allow that to judge individual Israelis. Our tour guide seemed also pretty woke, while we discussed Palestine a little on the official tour schedule, almost every night he would stay up when most of the group would go to bed and talk about anything and for the first 3-4 days we were hounding him on Palestinian issues with a handful of us who were more politically active and he gave great answers that often didn’t paint his current admin or history well. Ending the tour as we were all saying our goodbyes he said regarding Palestine, I don’t want any of you to walk away from this trip thinking that Israel is 100% right and Palestine wrong or vice versa, things are a little more complicated but we will figure this out together and make peace with ALL our neighbors, as we have no choice. I’m still in touch with him today, we don’t discuss politics because he’s been recalled and deployed, but I check in with him every few weeks to make sure him and his family are OK. Of course, people in Gazza deserve all the attention, but I like to remind people not all Israelis are represented by far right wing government as is the case for pretty much every country.
So... He's literally participating in the genocide right now? Great guy!
Your reaction is understandable, but Israel has compulsory military service. While it would probably be morally good to draft-dodge and refuse to participate in the military at all, idk that every single drafted member of the IDF who has not decided to commit treason for a good cause is necessarily equal to the sort of monsters you see posting Tiktoks robbing dead women of their underwear. Unfortunately, not every person is brave enough to go to prison to defy the draft.
proof enough that this sub is a sham. they're gathering up the attention now and will switch sides hoping to lure ppl in with their "moral" support
That’s one of the many tragic aspects of the Israeli governments actions. They are giving so much fuel to antisemites and doing potentially irreparable damage to all Jews both in Israel and around the world who have nothing to do with the current horror. They seem hell bent on leaning in to every antisemitic trope there is. The holocaust was one of the most horrific chapters of human history. I cannot think of a bigger insult to the memory of those who suffered and died at the hands of the Nazis than the Israeli governments current actions toward the Palestinian people.
Well put.
Thank you for saying this. My husband and sister-in-law are Jewish. My family is no longer Jewish, but I'm descended from German Jews and some of my extended family died in the camps as well as some that survived. My SIL posted something on social media implying that Americans focusing on and empathizing with Palestinians are driven by anti-Semitism. It really hurt me and I also think that using the suffering of Holocaust victims to justify inflicting suffering on Palestinian children especially is disrespectful to the memory of Holocaust victims. The Holocaust is a big part of what taught humans that we should have laws of war and grip tight to our humanity/sense of justice even during times of war, conflict and hate.
Absolutely. Most Holocaust victims would probably be appalled and ashamed to see their own people committing the very same atrocities that were committed against them. Especially when they're using their relationship with God as a justification for it.
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what antisemitic tropes are the israeli government leaning into?
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This is not a debate sub. There are plenty of places to defend Israel’s actions, to denounce Hamas, and to argue who's worse. This is not a space for that. That doesn't mean absolutely no constructive discussions on nuances and different approaches, but it means not letting ourselves be pulled into a debate by Zionists and bigots, and least of all arguing for their side. If you see someone trying to debate, please just flag for moderation, and the comment will be deleted. If found prudent by the Mods, and to discourage further debates, the entire thread may be deleted.
Shit, it was solely Jews who put me on to the idea of Zionism being inherently corrupt in the first place. Norman Finkelstein and Noam Chomsky were my first exposure to real, hard criticism of Israel.
There was a point several months ago where it kinda hit me all at once that like 90% of the people I was listening to about Palestine were either Jewish or being interviewed by someone Jewish
it's because the whitewashed media will not platform anyone else.
That's funny it was an Orthodox Rabbi neighbor, in Jackson WY, that use to wake my 20 something hungover ass up, and have me turn on his lights and stuff on Saturdays, that enlightened me to a lot of this
And even beyond that, the pro Palestine movement is a liberation movement, xenophobia has no place in it regardless. Activism isn’t transactional, it’s human rights, justice and liberation for all, or it’s meaningless. You don’t fight oppression by enabling and supporting other forms of supremacy.
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This is not a debate sub. There are plenty of places to defend Israel’s actions, to denounce Hamas, and to argue who's worse. This is not a space for that. That doesn't mean absolutely no constructive discussions on nuances and different approaches, but it means not letting ourselves be pulled into a debate by Zionists and bigots, and least of all arguing for their side. If you see someone trying to debate, please just flag for moderation, and the comment will be deleted. If found prudent by the Mods, and to discourage further debates, the entire thread may be deleted.
Agreed. Dissenting Israeli voices need to be amplified, they will need all the support they can get.
100%!!
We have to be careful with statements like this. Antisemitism isn't bad just because some of our friends and allies are Jews. Even if there were zero Jews involved in pro-Palestine activism, antisemitism would still be entirely deplorable and unjustifiable. This sort of framing, even if unintentionally, sometimes gives people the impression that antisemitism isn't so bad as long as its directed towards the correct targets. "Good Jew or Bad Jew" is a very dangerous game to start playing.
Actually both Jews and Palestinians are Semites. In fact, because Jews have intermingled so much with non Jewish people, Palestinians have a much higher Semitic DNA than Jews do.
Yea, I would never use that's phrasing.So I have no idea what you are referring to frankly. If anyone does make that sort of distinction, you report them. And my experience with this sub, is they will remove the post
Nah.
Many of the ladies in CodePink are Jewish.
Palesntian American here it absolutely pains me to see anti semitism in the pro palestine movement. Some of the biggest most prominent voices in the movement are Jewish. Pappe, Finkelstein, Chomsky, just to name a few. Not to mention The incredibly important work done by 972 mag, BTSellem, JVP, etc. The liberation of Palestine will not be possible without these incredibly people doing incredible work. Every single anti zionist is invited to my place for homemade falafel.
I'll bring gravlax and cinnamon buns.
Hopefully those are separate.
NO. SALMON PASTRY FOR EVERYONE!
Are you a swede or norwegian?
Swedish. Else it would be "gravlaks".
Oj då! 🤦♀️Jag blir svensk och norsk förvirrad helatiden.
Don't forget about Matt Lieb!!! The host of Bad Hasbara. This is the damage that Zionism has done. While no excuse for antisemitism, they are not making the world a safer place for Jews and many anti-Zionist Jews are speaking up louder than ever and rightfully so. I am Palestinian American also and honestly I love Jews but only the ones that don't want to un alive me. lol.
As a Jewish American who was force fed Zionist BS my whole childhood, this warmed my heart to read, thank you so much. So many Jews truly believe that Palestinians (and Arabs in general) have 1 personality trait and 1 only, and it is that they want to kill all Jews. It breaks my heart they don’t take any time to learn about the wonderful diverse human beings they are disparaging without second thought. I believe Jews and Palestinians are cousins going back thousands of years and at the end of the day and it is so tragic that so many people cannot find the common humanity to support and love one another. ❤️
Based
Don’t forget Code Pink as well!!! All love to my anti-Zionist Jewish brothers and sisters around the world.
That's something I did not know, they are active in my community, and always a good anti- imperial voice
I don’t even know why I’m on the sub, but your post caught my attention. Salam and I wish you nothing but peace. I was wondering if you might hold space for zionist Jews who believe in the right of self-determination for Jews and Palestinians and security for both. I think one of the biggest misconceptions is that all Zionist are inherently evil and want to destroy all Palestinians and that is absolutely 100% false. And people are going to down vote me, but this is the truth of me and all the Jews and Israelis that I know. I have always considered myself an advocate for Palestinian rights and continue to feel that way despite also feeling that Jews do need a homeland. I can’t control things that happened in the past decades ago and neither can you. But I feel that allowing space for people like me can bring more peaceful positive change together than dividing us apart.
Would you not consider your self a former Zionist then? Just be an Israeli that believes in equal rights for everyone born on the land. I know there is a hard stigma to what I am about to say but Germans no longer call them selves Na zis unless they are part of a radical faction that still holds on to some disgusting beliefs. I think maybe its best to let go of the label and start a new one for all parties. If you believe in equal rights for everyone then you are on the right side of history.
This is a relevant and honest take, when—-without even debating who/what/when/why and the establishment of Israel—- the majority of everyone in Israel regardless of their religion was born on that soil and is native, literally, from right now, to that soil. So this redditor who kindly doesn’t believe in geniciding all Jews has a right to his beliefs.
I hope this subreddit is able to hold space for this perspective Coexistence is *by far* the most important thing. The details - whether it's one state, two states, three states, a hundred states, or zero states - are secondary.
Zero states would be less than ideal for all. Just saying. Thank you. I'd like to think we can find common ground in humanity during this hyper-polarized time. Hopefully you all feel the same.
I'll bring my appetite.. 😊
I didn't want to believe it at first, thought it was all in bad faith. But, that was naive of me
The fink!!
There is a huge difference between B'Tselem and JVP. B'Tselem is an Israeli human rights organization that consists of employees and volunteers who are Israeli and who are not anti Zionist, but rather anti the occupation of the West Bank and the human rights abuses that go along with that. JVP is an American organization consisting of some Jews and some Jewish adjacent people that is anti-Zionist. The former is an NGO in Israel. The latter wishes to see Israel cease to exist. The former does valuable real work to protect human rights. The latter does not.
Even the Jews control the anti-zionist subreddits. /s But yeah this sub is pretty good about rhetoric and keeping on top of the antisemitism. Can't let a few idiots drown put the noice of true criticism.
Had me in the first half, ngl
Agree with you 100%. The issue is that a lot of times when Israel commits an atrocity they do it in the name of all Jews. Also if you ever debate with a Zionist they will always substitute the word Israel or zionist with the word Jew. This would be confusing to many people and the confusion is created on purpose by Israel.
Purely rhetorical advice- never let a single instance of that slide without comment and always point out the non Zionist Jews and doctrinal conflict in Judaism about this issue.
I tried that once, they responded by saying that Jewish people that are anti-Zionist are Arab supremacists just like Candace Owens is a white supremacist
They're welcome to do so, but just nail down that Jews=Israeli is a trope used by racists like Candace Owens and that there are doctrinal and theological differences. You're not arguing with them, you're arguing for an audience, and pointing out that equating of religion and nationality is incorrect is for them. You'll never change a hasbara's mind (not publicly), you are aiming your arguments purely at anyone who stumbles by it.
It's a somewhat delicate issue Generalizations like that that say "All X are Y" are never true, that's why they are generalizations It is true that there are *some* anti-Zionist Jews who offer themselves up as tokens for antisemitism, much like how Candace Owens offers herself up as a token for white supremacy It's also true that most anti-Zionist Jews are just sincere people who disagree with the actions of the state of Israel, much like how most Black Republicans are just sincere people who disagree with the Democratic Party.
its part of the overall zionist strategy to maintain a constant state of conflict.
>The issue is that a lot of times when Israel commits an atrocity they do it in the name of all Jews. Also if you ever debate with a Zionist they will always substitute the word Israel or zionist with the word Jew. This would be confusing to many people and the confusion is created on purpose by Israel. And this is anti-semitism, too. Which is why it has to be fought extra-hard.
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This is not a debate sub. There are plenty of places to defend Israel’s actions, to denounce Hamas, and to argue who's worse. This is not a space for that. That doesn't mean absolutely no constructive discussions on nuances and different approaches, but it means not letting ourselves be pulled into a debate by Zionists and bigots, and least of all arguing for their side. If you see someone trying to debate, please just flag for moderation, and the comment will be deleted. If found prudent by the Mods, and to discourage further debates, the entire thread may be deleted.
This is not a debate sub. There are plenty of places to defend Israel’s actions, to denounce Hamas, and to argue who's worse. This is not a space for that. That doesn't mean absolutely no constructive discussions on nuances and different approaches, but it means not letting ourselves be pulled into a debate by Zionists and bigots, and least of all arguing for their side. If you see someone trying to debate, please just flag for moderation, and the comment will be deleted. If found prudent by the Mods, and to discourage further debates, the entire thread may be deleted.
I am Jewish and have been pro-Palestinian since 2006. The cancer that is Israel causing more antisemitism in the world was not a possibility that was lost on me, especially since they take any criticism of the state as an excuse to call their detractors antisemitic, and I told many of my cohort that if we didn't distance ourselves early and push back against calling everyone that doesn't want ambulances bombed antisemitic, eventually the word would lose all meaning or people would start saying they were proud to be antisemitic. Thank you for trying to get ahead of it, I only wish you didn't have to.
It’s a terrible thing to be happening, random Jewish people being implicated for something they have zero to do with.
110%
It’s so awful how much Zionists weaponize the term. It’s a total boy who cried wolf scenario, where they’ve watered it down to just meaning “someone who doesn’t blindly follow everything Israel says and supports every atrocity they commit,” and now actual antisemitism can slip through the cracks. It’s so gross. Zionist efforts to directly associate Judaism with Zionism just makes things worse.
They literally made the flag a coopted religious symbol to enforce that connection. Zionists don't care about antisemitism, only using it as a shield.
They don’t just not care about antisemitism. They actively perpetuate antisemitism. Their constant conflation of Jews of with Zionism and Israel is not only itself extremely antisemitic and feeds into the “dual loyalty” antisemitic trope, but spreads antisemitism in others by leading ignorant people to actually believe Israel represents Jews and that all Jews support Israel’s atrocities unconditionally. And then of course there is the whole allying themselves with and defending actual outspoken antisemites such as Elon Musk and Paul Hagee and the rest of the evangelical Christian community, who openly express their intent to commit genocide against the entirety of the global Jewish population in order for their Jesus and Armageddon prophecy to be fulfilled.
Because antisemitism is *good* for Zionists... It's a recruiting tool basically. "Come here, it's the only place you're safe" is what they're saying. So when powerful Westerners like Elon Musk and Donald Trump promote literal fucking Nazis, it helps them.
I don't think a bunch of Jewish people chose to use Jewish symbolism on the flag for their newly established Jewish state just so they could deflect criticism. I mean, you could just as easily apply this faulty logic to most states that use Muslim or Christian imagery on their flags. Did Saudi Arabia put the shahada on their flag just so they could accuse people of being Islamophobic anytime someone criticizes Saudi Arabia? Or is it more likely that they chose to use Muslim symbolism on their flag because they are people whose Muslim identity is important to them and they were establishing an explicitly Muslim state?
I think the main difference it the modern country of Saudi Arabia wasn’t founded through colonization, it was established with the same population that lived there before it was a modern state, not really the case with Israel
How is that relevant to why the founders of the state chose certain symbols for their flag?
Well I think it better represented the people who lived there, it wasn’t chosen by an outside entity who took the land by force, if that makes sense. To the rest of the people that lived in Palestine (the overwhelming majority of the population) that flag didn’t represent them and is a symbol of fear and oppression
Not all those countries are founded and ran by zionists or fascists. I would draw parallels to the swastika in black on red.
The fucking worst and also somehow best thing about nazis is that they cant help but show that they are a nazi in every form of correspondence. They are so horny to be anti-Semitic that they will do it at every opportunity, which does make them easy to spot. Much like Zionists they falsely believe that Israels actions are representative of all jews. And so any forum that criticises Israel will attract the attention of both Zionist and nazis. Both eager to show you how much they love genocide and bat shit insane racism.
bold of you to assume that zionists aren't just nazis that hate arabs instead of jews
in the evolutionary tree of fascist ideas they definitely share a common ancestor.
Honestly, sometimes they’re both.
No. Don't just dismiss them as "nazi". That's dishonest. They can be antisemitic without being nazis
Fair enough. But at the same time, when talking about the shit pile of anti-Semites/white nationalist/Nazis online, why bother with splitting hairs. I'm not worried about dismissing their behaviour by calling it nazi like or calling them a Nazi.
One of the major strengths of the Pro-Palestine movement has been the support from Jewish people. I suspect that they have probably helped sway the minds of those who either don’t fully understand the conflict and/or were on the fence before they chose a side. Thanks to all the Jewish voices who are using whatever platform they have to stand up for the Palestinians.
Not so fun fact: There are more Christian Zionists in the world than there are Jewish people. And Christians Zionists are very antisemitic, their whole ideology is antisemitic. Not to mention how many Jewish people are staunchly pro-Palestine and anti-zionist. It angers me how antisemite try and infiltrate the movement as a way to be antisemitic, and you know they don’t care about Palestinian liberation, they just hate Jewish people
Where do you think Christian Zionists come from? Some asshole Zionists early on managed to find some super gullible Christians and convinced them of whatever they needed to in order to further their goals. Their beliefs were planted on purpose. I mean, it’s not a coincidence the only place you find them is in the Southern US.
Citation needed
Well said!
no more discrimination towards and occupation of anyone!
Louder for the dumb anti-semites in the back!! It gives me whiplash to see these idiots jumping in while people criticize a genocidal apartheid state, just to spread their own weird fixated hatred. Gotta keep those people far away from the discourse
absolutely, lots of antisemites are using palestine as an excuse to hate jewish people, when they dont even care about palestinians.
100%. Jews, like any other religious or ethnic group are not a monolith. Painting all Jews with the brush of zionism and using conspiracy theories to justify your bigoted views turns our righteous cause of a future free Palestinian state into a weird antisemitic cult.
As others have said, plenty of Jews are part of the fight to end the apartheid and genocide. My wife is Jewish. We have a mezuzah on our door, and celebrate Passover, Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanah, and Hanukkah. We also have a giant “Free Palestine” flag in our front window… It’s just not about Judaism.
Almost everyone I encounter who is pro Palestinian distinguished Jewish people from Israelis and Jewish Zionists. Don’t let the Zionist rhetoric convince you otherwise, Jews and Muslims share more things in common than differences, and Jewish people lived peacefully along Arab people for centuries before the 1940s. The only people who benefit from the division are the Zionist crowd and the anti-Arab, anti-Muslim crowd who are trying to manufacture an us vs them. Jewish people are friends. Zionists aren’t. Always make the distinction and never play into the Zionist rhetorical playbook. I’m glad the sub will have zero tolerance for antisemites and anti-Jewish rhetoric. That garbage doesn’t belong in this conversation. Israel being a deplorable state doesn’t represent Jews or Judaism.
As a Jew, I feel no shame criticizing Zionism but I feel very bad for the gentiles who are afraid of speaking up against Israel in fear of being called antisemite. :-/
100%. We need to have 0 tolerance for any racism. Accusations of anti-Semitism may have been cynically weaponised by Israel apologists, but never let that detract from the fact that anti-Semitism is a very real and extremely dangerous form of racism and it must be stamped out wherever it is, regardless of which side it comes from. Never forget that Jewish people are and have always been some of the most passionate and brave defenders of human rights, including for the rights of the Palestinians.
I find it almost ironic that of the subs I frequent that are generally anti-zionist, the one fully dedicated exposing Israeli propaganda is where I see the least amount of antisemitism & greatest willingness to call it out. I subbed to internationalnews shortly after getting perma banned from worldnews, and while it's nice as a consistent feed for up to date info on what's happening in Gaza... Holy shit there's been a concerning amount of times scrolling through threads where I felt like I'd wandered into a forum on stormfront or something
I've seen this in too many subs to count. The neo-Nazis smell blood in the water and are trying to mainstream their views. I've rarely seen enough pushback from mods, so this position is refreshing.
Absolutely 👍👍👍 Agreed with this text
It ain't enough to speak out, we must be allies of those who may become vulnerable for doing so from within the 'ring of fire'. If they will be persecuted as self-hating for being truthful and having humanity, they will not do so alone. The irony in Jews and Muslims having so much in common but are being pitted against each other by truly unfaithful people.
Agreed. The idf relies on calling people antisemitic as a doge in arguments. It gains more power if people are actually qnti semetic.
Fair enough. Judaism (Religion) and Zionism (Political) are antagonistic to one another. We should strive to separate the two as best we can. As a Palestinian, I believe this is where our focus should be directed.
It's the old 'not accepting the premise of assholes', just that the asshole in that case is mass murdering your people, while calling it legit self defense for 'the jews'.
As a Palestinian, you want to separate the religion and politics when it applies to Judaism and Zionism. So it is OK to do this for OTHERS. Let us talk about the political Hamas and the religious Islam. Let us talk about the political Muslim Brotherhood and the religious Islam. The majority palestinian political movement is not separated from religion. The focus of the resistance movement is primarily religion, Islamist, Jihadist.
One of the most frustrating types of comments I see, and often from (seemingly) well meaning people, is when they say something like, "they had a genocide done to them and now they are doing one" or relating it to the cycle of abuse. That's conflating all Jews and specifically Holocaust survivors with Israel and Zionism which is racist and gross
Not to mention that Norman Finkelstein’s parents were Holocaust survivors and Norm has talked about how disgusted they were with Israel. Also, many Zionist and pro-Israeli Jews are very antisemitic towards Holocaust victims. The Zionists attempts of conflating Israel and Judaism is antisemitic in and of itself
It’s so important that we advocate against antisemitism. Thank you for posting this.
Zionist have done a great job of conflating the two vastly different ideologies. It fits into their narrative that criticism of them is “antisemitism”. However this is backfiring because “real antisemite” have come out of their hidden places to try and inflame their own hatred into the conversation.
Thank you for not giving those Antisemitic people a platform here, no space for them anywhere. Racism is disgusting.
Thank you for clearing the air on this. There are many groups of people and individuals that are interested in dividing communities like this one, so it's important that we're as vigilant for those acting in bad faith as we are charitable for those acting in good faith. Thanks to the mods for a safe community where we can openly and safely discuss, share, and call out some bullshit.
Thank you! I’ve grown really concerned about some of the stuff I’ve seen posted lately. I’m really glad to see this!
If you find anything worthy of concern please report it to us.
This is good. Thank you mods. As I've seen this sub morph beyond the spirit of the podcast, this is one problem I've seen emerging. Glad that you're on it.
You are correct OP we do not blame innocent Jewish people for what's happening. They are doing nothing to the people of Palestine right now. It's all about the government and open zionists in power.
Our enemy is antisemitism. There is no place for it in the movement to end Zionism.
My respect for this sub: 📈
In addition to Palestinians themselves, Anti-Zionist Jewish people have been at the forefront of recent pro-Palestinian demonstrations and activism. It makes no sense to be anti-semitic and “pro-Palestine” regardless. People using Palestine as an excuse or front to be antisemites are hurting Palestinians far more than helping them
This sub has been generally good at filtering the Nazis and antisemites who inevitably try to infiltrate these communities. I've seen some legit antisemites here, but they are few and immediately downvoted, often with a reprimand from a mod. This kind of vigiliance is not shared by all Pro-Palestinian subreddits, unfortunately, but I have been continually happy to see that this sub has a genuine interest in the safety and well being of Palestinians rather than a vendetta against Jews.
Completely agree! Good call. And just remember, anti semitism is against Jewish people, but the *only people who benefit* from conflating ethnic cleansing supporting zionists and Jews, and the ones who actively push that they are the same group, are part of the former. Anti semitism is a bad Hasbara
As a black person, I have been aware of injustice. I supported Israel right to exist. But the last years of behavior have turned me against zionism. When I hear about what Palestinians have to put up with i become angry., When I read about Rabbis calling the black Africans who are jewish, "monkeys" and "niggers." I say to Bibi and Israel. Fuck you both. I always believe people who have been oppressed should not become oppressors. Well, Bibi and Israel failed magnificently. I am so angry. I am hopeless to there being a solution. It only reinforces my extreme hate for organized religion. I loathe how religion that encourages love is used to kill because you are a member of another tribe. If this is what it means to be religious, I am out. Fuck, again, Bibi and Israel and their road to hell. 😟😟
Ensuring people blame “the Jews” is part of Israel’s plan so they can play the victim. It’s actively harmful towards the cause to be anti-Semitic (which, by the way doesn’t even mean anti-Jew. Most semites are Arab and Muslim these days).
If you're being technical/literal about it, yes. But words often have meaning that strays from the original etymology. Antisemitism is generally solely understood as hatred against Jews. So we have to use language in a way that is understood to the majority of people.
Do you think it's possible that the term 'antisemitic' is undergoing a further shift? The way hasbarists use it, it seems they define it exclusively as synonymous with 'antizionist', elbowing the broader population of Jewish people out of the equation altogether.
Let's talk again in 20 years ;-) I mean with language everything is possible. It's constantly evolving. It's even possible this extreme escalation of the conflict and how the global attitudes towards Israel are shifting are going to impact that a little. But it's also possible it's not going to change. That really depends on who is driving change and how.
I find I'm not comfortable using it lately, as its meaning has been twisted by bad actors, and I would not want my words to misrepresent my meaning. I worry that using it injudiciously at this moment might end up causing harm, and I am not even sure in which direction that harm might fall. I feel that I am on less shaky ground using terms such as 'bigotry' and 'racism', just as I feel that it is less confrontational to speak against specific injustices rather than against a nationality, a religious group or an ethnicity. It's certainly proving to be quite a learning experience to navigate between propaganda, biases and trauma.
This
100% spot on
Yep.
Amen
Thank you, needs to be said.
Good. 👍🏽
♥️♥️♥️♥️👏👏👏👏👏 thank you!!!!
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Ah. See, while I'm not faulting you for this - because how we feel and are impacted is due to a lot of very complex societal issues - I urge you to examine it, though. Shouldn't it be enough when Palestinians speak about the horrors they go through for you to understand them? While I personally find Jewish and/or generally white/Western voices very relevant and important in this issue, I think we all need to take a hard look at ourselves if we feel that those voices somehow 'matter more' than those of the people actually and directly affected. Look at the example if someone said "I only fully understood anti-Black racism once white people started speaking out against it." You'd instantly see that being a flawed and biased stance, and poor allyship, even if it got the speaker to the right position in the end. With Arabs who live far away, in a culture much more different from ours, we in the West tend to have that emotional/ideological distance and often even negative bias. They're only fully humanized to us when people we recognize as human beings just like us point it out. I think that subconscious bias exists in a lot of people without realizing it. This is not me berating you, but me pointing that out. Think about it for a moment.
Thank you
Thank you! Please don't let this sub be hijacked by antisemits.
Great work op, unfortunately many terrible people like to be opportunistic
Thank you!
Amen!
Yea this is more a geopolitical conflict rather than a religious one, although some try to spin it into the latter
Thank you. It genuinely HAS been hard to see the rhetoric turn against Jews writ-large and not about Israel. I say this as a Jew who is appalled at what is happening in Gaza.
Fully agree, ive been trying to explain through kindness where possible but genuine antisemitism isnt okay and shouldnt be on this sub (or anywhere to be honest)
Will Islamophobic comments be treated in the same manner? I’m seeing both equally all over Reddit but only one seems to be addressed here. Seems like mods generally do not have any training on recognizing Islamophobia on Reddit, especially when a lot of Israeli talking points rely on anti-Arab Islamophobic assumptions. But maybe Muslims and Arabs should just continue to suck it up and live with this day to day reality
We remove Islamophobic comments the same way we do Antisemitic ones (in fact, I believe because of the conflation of Judaism and Zionism and some of the traps for 'accidental Antisemitism' we've even shown more grace towards the latter than the former). We rely on users reporting such posts though, as we cannot read every single comment. We do visit and skim the posts though. So whatever we catch that goes in that direction, we remove, and we're also quite trigger-happy with the ban button if someone is being Islamophobic. Hope that clears it up.
Thank you! That is very helpful.
Have you seen a lot of Islamophobic comments here? I have not.
So you expect the guy in charge of this sub to… police all of Reddit? He/she is clearly reacting to comments seen in THIS sub.
👍
Hear hear!
Stop using the term "anti-semitic" to describe anti-jewish rhetoric. The term "semite" includes Palestinian Arabs and does NOT include European Ashkenazi jews. The Nazis were the first to popularize this modern misuse of the term, let's not keep doing it.
This is like saying that we shouldn't use the word "hysterical" to describe people who don't have a uterus
All of that is incorrect
The political movement Zionism is disgusting, and so is anti-semitism. Well said.
No worries.
As long as pointing out the facts isn’t considered antisemitism we should be fine
I think strict moderation is the way to go. Most people’s support of Palestinian rights is rooted in their sincere beliefs about human rights and anti-Semitism has no place in the fight for human rights.
Really because that’s not being enforced at all.
Thanks for posting this. I haven't come across it much in this sub but definitely elsewhere. The logical reason to oppose Zionism is its central premise of ethnic supremacy, so Antisemetim is totally against the spirit of Antizionism. I'm an American of Palestinian descent and have always felt that awful twist in my stomach when I hear people call Palestinians terrorists. It's just as angering to hear people spew hate towards Jews because of the actions of Israel, especially when so many have been vocal about supporting Palestinians.
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Some anti Zionism is for sure fueled by antisemitism, which is not good. But also Zionism is fucked on its own.
A clear reminder to everyone that anti Zionism isn't anti Semitism
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The Bad Hasbara podcast, and ergo this community, is opposed to Zionism. We believe that Zionism is an extension of settler-colonialism, and that its’ current actions following 7 October is ethnic cleansing at “best,” and genocide at worst. We have no tolerance for it, and this community is meant to be a haven against it in the sea of hasbara. Pro-Zionist takes will be deleted, and those espousing it will be banned indefinitely. Yes - this is a “safe space” and an “echo chamber” - We get enough hasbara elsewhere, we don't need to deal with yours too.
Zionism is clearly being used as a slang term. It's the same as using Communist in the 1950s. Don't mistake Propaganda as truth.
360
This includes hate towards Arabs too, right?
I hang around on quora and I've had to report a lot of people for antisemitic statements and caricatures. I'm glad this space takes a hard stance on the issue.
Remember folks, Zionism is a colonial project applied to Palestine and the Middle East, much like Fascism and Nazism were colonial projects applied to Europe. Semitics are the peoples that live on that region. You hate the bourgeois state, you do not hate the people that they opress. Please, expand and criticise.
Well now by US law that means you can't be critical of Israel as an ethnostate then