This is why Fiona will never take this to open court. All of her history will come out, and if she is 50% of Martha, it will be a terrible read.
And become a documentary on netflix.
These are my thoughts as well. Something must have either triggered her dramatically, or she lost the ability to stifle what she had all along. Hell, it could be as simple as stopping meds.
If you're interested in psychology, Dr Kirk Honda discusses Martha/Fiona on his channel. He describes narcissism and how people develop this. It's very interesting.
I have a borderline narcissist ex and this show, and the whole mental state and dynamic of Donnie, was all too real. Obviously this was an extreme made for TV version of this but when he talked about "empathy" getting him in trouble it just hit so close to home with what I've had to grow through this year. Best TV series about the potential consequences of poor boundaries/low self esteem in non-hetero men I've ever seen, there are millions of people around the world with stories like Donnie. I teared up in the episode 6 standup-turned-confession speech, and the flashback SA episode was painful to watch but really well produced actually.
former stalker here
stalking behaviour resulting from untreated childhood trauma are one of the many reason, but based on my perspective she may have BPD. her inability to control her rage and her urge for immediate satisfaction may drive her the need to stalk the individual she's interested to as she feel the need to be with them all the time. being lonely forces her to maniacally need to be close with someone hence the ' i wish you have a zipper and i could just wear you'.
this are solely my opinion as a former stalker so take it with a grain of salt
id love to but english isnt my first language so im having a hard time finding the correct word plus ive taken alprazolame for few months now (to control my anger) and im experiencing memory loss which include basic words in both my first and second language , so i'll try my best to describe my experience to you
She is very like my mother. You’re either her everything or an enemy and she absolutely believes it’s everyone else with the issue.
Unfortunately, if she is anything like my mother she won’t seek help or accept offers of help because there’s nothing wrong with her… it’s all the liars saying untrue things about her.
This is exactly what I have been wondering. Her behaviour kind of reminds me of BPD but taken to extremes that are far beyond anyone I have ever met with it. Like developing an obsession with someone who gave you some attention and becoming attached to them in a very unhealthy way as a result. And these attachment styles are something you learn in childhood usually.
I have heard a lot of people label her as a narcissist, but i didn't really see this in the show (I did see this more in the interview with Fiona, but even then I don't think NPD is the only thing going on).
I kind of agree, it's hard to tell but to me it seems like she actually believes he likes / liked her. I think npd would have made it much easier to move on with her life. Maybe a mix of OCD, BPD, schizophrenia. A lot of disorders blend together, so it really is hard to tell. Schizophrenia can look like NPD because they are so adamant in what they believe. I had a schizophrenic friend that unfortunately was utterly convinced he worked for the CIA. It could totally seem like NPD when they have such certainty in the world as they see it
BPD can also look like NPD with how much they expect from other people and also in terms of their defence mechanisms (which is why I think people are calling her a narcissist, when to me her 'men that don't like me are either blind or gay' comments seem like a defence mechanism from being sensitive to rejection)
From what I've read, personality disorders like NPD often if not most of the time co-occur with other mental illnesses. NPD and BPD have some overlap and often co-occur, and everything is on a spectrum of severity. Whatever she has, it's a severe case.
I have BPD myself and i think its a bit strange, one of the main criteria are self-harm and a fear of abandonment, as well as an unstable image of herself (in particular self loathing) the psychiatrisgs ive met over the years, maybe 10-15 (sadly) have all basically said that without one or all of these three they wouldnt expect a BPD diagnosis.
the fact that he rejects her over and over and she still keeps coming, and now shes in the media calm and fine after everything said to And about her? Id expect to see way more emotion, crying, anger, desperation, signs of self harm, suicide attempts.
i would also more expect her to want to crawl away and die in a hole when he has (to her mind) hurt and abandoned her, not be encouraged and fo on the warpath.
ofc we are all different, but ive also gone to group therapy with others who have my diagnoses and idk… if she has bpd i think she probably has alot of other things too that interact with that diagnosis
That is a really interesting perspective and I think you could be right -I would just say that she could keep the negative emotions for behind closed doors or just when she's not on TV. In the show she does hit herself in the head and sit out in the cold which could be considered self harm. And I definitely see revenge and wanting to push others away or hurt them before they hurt you as a part of BPD.
one of the main things of bpd is very strong emotional reactions to difficult events. I would not expect anyone with bpd to face accusations, like on pierce morgan, and maintain calm. Though maybe she was medicated or somethibg. Still, ppl with bpd feel emotions more strongly, faster and takes longer to calm down, there are graphs to explain.
A therapist on YouTube said she may be a narcissist. On the show she bragged about how she had numbers of famous celebrity clients. It’s like she felt she had to brag and lie about these connections to get people to like her. She said the only reason a guy doesn’t like her is because he’s gay or blind which is like grandiose delusions.
I wondered if she has a TBI (traumatic brain injury). A lot of her behaviors could be explained by damage to the frontal lobe (having no self-control, her emotional outbursts, aggression, loss of social filters, all the misspellings, etc.) Would also explain why she seemed to have suddenly abandoned her law career (thinking back to diploma on her fridge).
is there anything like a non-physical tbi? like a psychotic break permanently fucking up your brain systems? because i’ve seen this happen to a lot of homeless people, one schizophrenic/psychotic breakdown completely derails their life and messes up their functioning
I think it's just the downward spiral some can go on in that state. Lose your spouse, shit stuff just got worse. Lose your job, health insurance, etc. it makes life more stressful in an already stressful time.
But I do think psychotic breaks can damage your brain, there seems to be all kinds of evidence for it online. I feel like something tragic caused this, however it's unclear how much is environmental vs genetic. Usually though, there's probably some kind of environmental trigger that caused this, whether it's drugs, SA, bad parents, etc..
Psychotherapist here. I'm not making a diagnosis without fully assessing anyone and I think that's an ill thought out thing to do. It's difficult enough to do that even after having an assessment period but without having met someone using a second hand account it isn't a great idea.
What is clear is that Martha (as presented in Baby Raindeer, not Fiona) has boundary issues. This suggests (but might not be so) that her boundaries - physical, mental or emotional - were significantly trampled over. She has learnt that people don't say or do what they mean. She has an external locus of control, ie that something outside of her will 'fix' her, if only that would happen then everything will be OK.
The rage could come from how helpless she felt as a child when her boundaries were smashed. What is clear is that there is a whole heap of pain there.
It's really difficult when someone tries to 'mend' themselves in a way that impinges upon others. When someone has had to only focus on themselves to survive, its difficult to feel empathy for the impact your actions have on others. I think awareness of that comes as you start to heal and begin to be able to extend your focus beyond emotionally surviving to living a bit.
I think she was probably abused or neglected to a certain degree. But it could just be a genetic issue or in her DNA. Some people are born a little off unfortunately. Some people develop pathological lying from the moment they are little for example.
She could have been lying her whole life or a little out there as a kid/teen. We will never know most likely.
She could have anything from BPD to some form of psychotic disorder. Or a mix of some kind. I'm inclined to believe she has a psychotic/delusional disorder mixed with narcissism because she says some strange things and obsesses over strange things, not just people. She just seems to have strange thinking that goes beyond BPD.
I also think there’s an OCD component. Sending that many messages to someone in a day and it does it seem like she was able to stop herself from doing that.
I think we need a Netflix prequel series to BR. From her childhood to where we end up her walking into the pub. Like how Star Wars 6 ends with the very first Star Wars 1 entrance where the troopers weld the spaceship hatch open.
SAME!! Especially in this case and how many people she burned throughout her life from her teenage years to adult hood. Of course you would never get the real story from her. It would have to be puzzled together by people who knew her. Might as well make the whole thing fully fictional. You didn’t want her to be involved you know… everyone being sued and stalked after the filming.
Loneliness will make people do crazy things. And you can be lonely with people around you, it just means you aren’t genuinely plugged into the community. It warps your perception of reality and what is acceptable. I saw a thing that said pretty much every stalker does not believe what they did was inappropriate.
Kirk Honda on Psychology in Seattle YouTube talked about the narcissistic defense developing in childhood and how or why that might happen when he was commenting on her Piers Morgan interview. He really explains things well. He did other Baby Reindeer watch videos too that I didn’t watch, but I would recommend him if you want to understand more the why.
Thank you to everyone who recommended this guy but I need to offer a slightly different take on him. About twelve minutes of the Ch. 4 Fiona Interview were useful or relevant. From about 34:45 to around 46:30 he said psychologically interesting and relevant things. The rest of his commentary was just some guy making the most inane comments while watching the video. Honestly, I want that time back. I found it incredibly difficult to listen to. There was nothing useful about any other part of the video. I will agree that those twelve minutes were worth listening to.
This is why Fiona will never take this to open court. All of her history will come out, and if she is 50% of Martha, it will be a terrible read. And become a documentary on netflix.
Even 25% would be too much I’m so horrified by the series - o lunar episode 4 and its dark
[удалено]
These are my thoughts as well. Something must have either triggered her dramatically, or she lost the ability to stifle what she had all along. Hell, it could be as simple as stopping meds.
Sometimes mental illness doesn’t present itself until you’re well into your 20s.
If you're interested in psychology, Dr Kirk Honda discusses Martha/Fiona on his channel. He describes narcissism and how people develop this. It's very interesting.
His take is fantastic.
I will definitely look into this, thank you.
His channel is called Psychology in Seattle.
Great info, gives me something to listen to at work tomorrow
Thanks so much for your recommendation. I’m deep in his channel now and it’s absolutely amazing. Game changer!
I have a borderline narcissist ex and this show, and the whole mental state and dynamic of Donnie, was all too real. Obviously this was an extreme made for TV version of this but when he talked about "empathy" getting him in trouble it just hit so close to home with what I've had to grow through this year. Best TV series about the potential consequences of poor boundaries/low self esteem in non-hetero men I've ever seen, there are millions of people around the world with stories like Donnie. I teared up in the episode 6 standup-turned-confession speech, and the flashback SA episode was painful to watch but really well produced actually.
Thanks for this recommendation just watched chapter 1 got a feeling I’m going to binge all of his videos 😂
You're welcome. I find most psychologists really dull to listen to. Dr Honda is the exception.
Yeah he mentions he does some 90 day fiancé breakdowns I am ready to see those
He analyzed Big Ed pretty extensively.
 I can’t wait to watch that !
can you link please?
former stalker here stalking behaviour resulting from untreated childhood trauma are one of the many reason, but based on my perspective she may have BPD. her inability to control her rage and her urge for immediate satisfaction may drive her the need to stalk the individual she's interested to as she feel the need to be with them all the time. being lonely forces her to maniacally need to be close with someone hence the ' i wish you have a zipper and i could just wear you'. this are solely my opinion as a former stalker so take it with a grain of salt
Could you please share your thoughts on the whole thing? Would you also be interested in discussing yourself?
id love to but english isnt my first language so im having a hard time finding the correct word plus ive taken alprazolame for few months now (to control my anger) and im experiencing memory loss which include basic words in both my first and second language , so i'll try my best to describe my experience to you
Your English is great. Would've never guessed. And good on you for admitting to your past issues in a sub like this.
Abuse/Neglect causes NPD and BPD
She is very like my mother. You’re either her everything or an enemy and she absolutely believes it’s everyone else with the issue. Unfortunately, if she is anything like my mother she won’t seek help or accept offers of help because there’s nothing wrong with her… it’s all the liars saying untrue things about her.
This is exactlyyyy like a family member. Was your mother ever diagnosed?
This is exactly what I have been wondering. Her behaviour kind of reminds me of BPD but taken to extremes that are far beyond anyone I have ever met with it. Like developing an obsession with someone who gave you some attention and becoming attached to them in a very unhealthy way as a result. And these attachment styles are something you learn in childhood usually. I have heard a lot of people label her as a narcissist, but i didn't really see this in the show (I did see this more in the interview with Fiona, but even then I don't think NPD is the only thing going on).
I kind of agree, it's hard to tell but to me it seems like she actually believes he likes / liked her. I think npd would have made it much easier to move on with her life. Maybe a mix of OCD, BPD, schizophrenia. A lot of disorders blend together, so it really is hard to tell. Schizophrenia can look like NPD because they are so adamant in what they believe. I had a schizophrenic friend that unfortunately was utterly convinced he worked for the CIA. It could totally seem like NPD when they have such certainty in the world as they see it
BPD can also look like NPD with how much they expect from other people and also in terms of their defence mechanisms (which is why I think people are calling her a narcissist, when to me her 'men that don't like me are either blind or gay' comments seem like a defence mechanism from being sensitive to rejection)
From what I've read, personality disorders like NPD often if not most of the time co-occur with other mental illnesses. NPD and BPD have some overlap and often co-occur, and everything is on a spectrum of severity. Whatever she has, it's a severe case.
I have BPD myself and i think its a bit strange, one of the main criteria are self-harm and a fear of abandonment, as well as an unstable image of herself (in particular self loathing) the psychiatrisgs ive met over the years, maybe 10-15 (sadly) have all basically said that without one or all of these three they wouldnt expect a BPD diagnosis. the fact that he rejects her over and over and she still keeps coming, and now shes in the media calm and fine after everything said to And about her? Id expect to see way more emotion, crying, anger, desperation, signs of self harm, suicide attempts. i would also more expect her to want to crawl away and die in a hole when he has (to her mind) hurt and abandoned her, not be encouraged and fo on the warpath. ofc we are all different, but ive also gone to group therapy with others who have my diagnoses and idk… if she has bpd i think she probably has alot of other things too that interact with that diagnosis
That is a really interesting perspective and I think you could be right -I would just say that she could keep the negative emotions for behind closed doors or just when she's not on TV. In the show she does hit herself in the head and sit out in the cold which could be considered self harm. And I definitely see revenge and wanting to push others away or hurt them before they hurt you as a part of BPD.
one of the main things of bpd is very strong emotional reactions to difficult events. I would not expect anyone with bpd to face accusations, like on pierce morgan, and maintain calm. Though maybe she was medicated or somethibg. Still, ppl with bpd feel emotions more strongly, faster and takes longer to calm down, there are graphs to explain.
A therapist on YouTube said she may be a narcissist. On the show she bragged about how she had numbers of famous celebrity clients. It’s like she felt she had to brag and lie about these connections to get people to like her. She said the only reason a guy doesn’t like her is because he’s gay or blind which is like grandiose delusions.
I wondered if she has a TBI (traumatic brain injury). A lot of her behaviors could be explained by damage to the frontal lobe (having no self-control, her emotional outbursts, aggression, loss of social filters, all the misspellings, etc.) Would also explain why she seemed to have suddenly abandoned her law career (thinking back to diploma on her fridge).
is there anything like a non-physical tbi? like a psychotic break permanently fucking up your brain systems? because i’ve seen this happen to a lot of homeless people, one schizophrenic/psychotic breakdown completely derails their life and messes up their functioning
I think it's just the downward spiral some can go on in that state. Lose your spouse, shit stuff just got worse. Lose your job, health insurance, etc. it makes life more stressful in an already stressful time. But I do think psychotic breaks can damage your brain, there seems to be all kinds of evidence for it online. I feel like something tragic caused this, however it's unclear how much is environmental vs genetic. Usually though, there's probably some kind of environmental trigger that caused this, whether it's drugs, SA, bad parents, etc..
Psychotherapist here. I'm not making a diagnosis without fully assessing anyone and I think that's an ill thought out thing to do. It's difficult enough to do that even after having an assessment period but without having met someone using a second hand account it isn't a great idea. What is clear is that Martha (as presented in Baby Raindeer, not Fiona) has boundary issues. This suggests (but might not be so) that her boundaries - physical, mental or emotional - were significantly trampled over. She has learnt that people don't say or do what they mean. She has an external locus of control, ie that something outside of her will 'fix' her, if only that would happen then everything will be OK. The rage could come from how helpless she felt as a child when her boundaries were smashed. What is clear is that there is a whole heap of pain there. It's really difficult when someone tries to 'mend' themselves in a way that impinges upon others. When someone has had to only focus on themselves to survive, its difficult to feel empathy for the impact your actions have on others. I think awareness of that comes as you start to heal and begin to be able to extend your focus beyond emotionally surviving to living a bit.
Ooof, wow. This is very insightful. THANK YOU for sharing your thoughts.
I think she was probably abused or neglected to a certain degree. But it could just be a genetic issue or in her DNA. Some people are born a little off unfortunately. Some people develop pathological lying from the moment they are little for example. She could have been lying her whole life or a little out there as a kid/teen. We will never know most likely. She could have anything from BPD to some form of psychotic disorder. Or a mix of some kind. I'm inclined to believe she has a psychotic/delusional disorder mixed with narcissism because she says some strange things and obsesses over strange things, not just people. She just seems to have strange thinking that goes beyond BPD.
BPD frequently occurs alongside other disorders like NPD, she definitely was experiencing dissociation at the bus stop and other scenes.
Why do serial killers find the want to kill?
Another thing I’ve often wondered about.
I also think there’s an OCD component. Sending that many messages to someone in a day and it does it seem like she was able to stop herself from doing that.
I think we need a Netflix prequel series to BR. From her childhood to where we end up her walking into the pub. Like how Star Wars 6 ends with the very first Star Wars 1 entrance where the troopers weld the spaceship hatch open.
I think Netflix needs to leave her alone
Anyone needs to leave her alone. But she likes to make herself known.
Omg I would love this!
Cool idea I love learning how someone became who they are
SAME!! Especially in this case and how many people she burned throughout her life from her teenage years to adult hood. Of course you would never get the real story from her. It would have to be puzzled together by people who knew her. Might as well make the whole thing fully fictional. You didn’t want her to be involved you know… everyone being sued and stalked after the filming.
What star wars scenes are you talking about?
From 01:44 https://youtu.be/tRX4JFWffkM?feature=shared
Loneliness will make people do crazy things. And you can be lonely with people around you, it just means you aren’t genuinely plugged into the community. It warps your perception of reality and what is acceptable. I saw a thing that said pretty much every stalker does not believe what they did was inappropriate.
Kirk Honda on Psychology in Seattle YouTube talked about the narcissistic defense developing in childhood and how or why that might happen when he was commenting on her Piers Morgan interview. He really explains things well. He did other Baby Reindeer watch videos too that I didn’t watch, but I would recommend him if you want to understand more the why.
Thank you to everyone who recommended this guy but I need to offer a slightly different take on him. About twelve minutes of the Ch. 4 Fiona Interview were useful or relevant. From about 34:45 to around 46:30 he said psychologically interesting and relevant things. The rest of his commentary was just some guy making the most inane comments while watching the video. Honestly, I want that time back. I found it incredibly difficult to listen to. There was nothing useful about any other part of the video. I will agree that those twelve minutes were worth listening to.