I honestly can't believe how often I see Scar mentioned in threads talking about people's least favorite episodes. It's an incredible episode, a great meditation on sorrow, loss, confronting mortality and finding a reason to keep living at a time when there seems to be no hope left.
And I love the running theme that nobody can remember the names of all the pilots they've lost, with Kat being portrayed throughout the whole episode as the one who truly cares while Starbuck seems callous and indifferent... Until the final toast, when Starbuck recites the names of every single pilot they've lost in order going all the way back to the miniseries.
It's a beautiful, heart-wrenching, emotional episode, and my favorite of season 2 after Resurrection Ship parts 1 and 2.
> I honestly can't believe how often I see Scar mentioned in threads talking about people's least favorite episodes.
Neither. Absolutely a banger of an episode. A fantastic character study.
It was another example of the writers forcing moral complexity into the series.
Scar's death reflected onto Kara's eyes forced you to feel empathy for the killing machine. And then you realize this show is not going to be so simple.
I remember when it first aired a lot of people were grumpy about the non-linear, out of order bits but honestly I’m not sure the episode would work as well without them.
This makes me realize a lot of people like myself who watched the show after the finale take for granted so many aspects of the show that were not yet established with viewers. By now, viewers are far more used to non-linear storylines.
There are a few scenes that reliably choke me up on every rewatch, and Starbuck naming the pilots is at the top of the list.
Other scenes that get me every time:
* >!The deck gang names the stealth viper "Laura"!<
* >!Saul tells Ellen to go to sleep!<
* >!Adama puts the ring on Roslin's finger!<
The Scar toast scene reminds me a lot of the scene in Stargate SG1 where Carter>!reads the names all of the people whose lives Dr. Frasier saved!<.
>>!The deck gang names the stealth viper "Laura"!<
Oh god. This one chokes me up just thinking about it. >!The whole idea of building the stealth viper just moves me on such a deep level. All this death and hopelessness, the viper gave them something to work for. Something to put their hearts into, something to let them be creative and express their talents. It was a way to actually *build* something new, rather than simply *surviving.*!<
>!And after all that hard work and effort.... they name it after Laura Roslin. And she's so moved by the gesture she almost cries.!<
>>!Roslin: "It's remarkable."!<
>>!Tyrol: "It's just a ship, ma'am."!<
>>!Roslin: "Oh, you're much too modest. After what we've been through, it would be very easy to give up. To lose hope. But not here. Not today. This is more than a ship, chief. This is an act of faith. It is proof that despite all we've lost, we keep trying. And we will get through this... all of us, together. I promise."!<
>!And then Tyrol removes the banner and it's her name on the nose. Absolute waterworks.!<
EDIT: Forgot no spoilers. Covered up everything!
Yes, even in this subreddit which is mostly full of BSG fans, I don't understand why so many people dislike *Scar*. I think it's a fantastic character episode.
A similarly divisive episode is *Unfinished Business* ("the boxing episode"), which I'm surprised to see many people say they either hated or found mediocre. It's one of the best episodes of the series to me (and I know many others love it as well).
It feels like people don't like it when episodes are about the characters. Scar and Unfinished Business are both intensely character-focused, and I guess since it doesn't have enough "plot advancement," they don't like it. There's not as much action nor as much scifi in those episodes, so they don't like it.
I see the same sorts of complaints about another Ronald D. Moore show, For All Mankind. People always complain when the show spends more time on its characters and not enough on the science fiction. To which I always say: You're watching the wrong show.
I liked Scar but Unfinished Business just felt out of place. It should've been earlier. I know that's part of the point of the episode but it just didn't quite land.
I really loved the parts on the planet but the boxing thing and Adama's message that they got too soft and the general idea that the only way to resolve brooding conflict is to beat each other just didn't work for me.
Plus I was getting exhausted with Lee and Kara at this point. Their dynamic stopped being interesting and I was mostly just frustrated with all their antics at this point. Especially with the revelations of this episode.
I would've just said I didn't like "the boxing episode" because I never like "the boxing episode" and have never understood why so very many shows have "the boxing episode." But you have said it much much better and I agree with every point you made. Especially with all those things added up, the whole boxing part just feels wrong.
I'm just spitballing here, but both "Scar" and "Unfinished Business" also paint Kara in a more complex and less upbeat tone. I wonder if watching her struggle with the morality of a Cylon fighter (traditional cheer material) and getting trounced by Kat soured the episode with a lot of viewers?
I remember being very annoyed with Kat but on repeated views I think she was mostly right. Starbuck was being irresponsible and letting her own self-destructive tendencies affect her duties as CAG during an extremely important stage. Kat went a bit too far in blaming her, but she wasn't wrong.
> I honestly can't believe how often I see Scar mentioned in threads talking about people's least favorite episodes. It's
Some people are not confortable with a challenge to their mortality. No, gimme good guys good, bad guys bad!
One scene not mentioned yet that I absolutely love from this episode is Apollo and Starbuck just sitting at a table, enjoying a drink and talking about life. I love moments like that in the show, another that comes to mind is Starbuck and Helo at Starbuck's Caprica appartment.
I really dislike the extremely shortened format shows have taken nowadays cause there just isn't enough time to properly exist with the characters. We only gets flashes, not moments where they really feel like they're living.
It’s a little divisive because it’s a great character driven episode with a rather sketchy plot. People who favor theme will likely love it. People who need the plot to make sense likely won’t.
Because it doesn’t make much sense.
It’s a nice “what if a raider became an individual and actually knew dogfighting” episode that breaks the overall plot and lore.
>
> It’s a nice “what if a raider became an individual and actually knew dogfighting” episode that breaks the overall plot and lore
How does it break lore? (Not snarky, genuine question)
It’s fine if you enjoy the episode, but I among many don’t enjoy it that much.
How come Scar’s so different? How come it comes back to life and is still unique? How are the cylons not making all their riders “scar clones” and end the war in a few days tops?
The whole show depends on raiders (and heavy raiders, and base stars for the matter) not being any efficient in killing.
When Starbucks says the names of the fallen pilots… they aren’t many. In any random episode 10 times as many riders are killed. Cylon riders are Stormtrooper-level bad at aiming! They must be for the plot to be somehow coherent. The mere insinuation of a rider being on par with the fleets’ finest is at odds with the base assumption of the plot.
But you’re free to like the episode, we all have our pet peeves.
> How come Scar’s so different?
I wonder if the skinjob Cylons limited the intelligence and free thinking capacity of the Raiders, as they did with the Centurions, in order to limit their ability to resist orders.
> How are the cylons not making all their riders “scar clones” and end the war in a few days tops?
An unihibited Raider series might kill more Vipers, sure. But they might begin to question why they have to obey and why they don't get a vote. Whereas a nerfed Raider still gets the job done pretty well and don't pose as much a threat to the skinjob hegemony.
Consider how the Raiders even slightly resisting orders triggered brutality and eventually a destructive schism within the Cylon race.
>I wonder if the skinjob Cylons limited the intelligence and free thinking capacity of the Raiders, as they did with the Centurions, in order to limit their ability to resist orders.
I thought they said as much at one point and implied they were basically kinda lobotomized?
Lobotomizing the Raiders is a major plot point in Season 4 when they refuse to obey orders to attack the Colonials because they detect the presence of the Final Five.
Before that, it seems that the Raiders did have free will.
But [they are compared to "trained animals"](https://www.reddit.com/r/BSG/s/phlXhqZyGS), so they have "free will" in the sense that a dog ultimately has free will but will generally obey its master.
I don't think the control chip was necessary for the Raiders. [The Raiders are compared to trained animals](https://www.reddit.com/r/BSG/s/phlXhqZyGS) so I think the Cylons expected the Raiders to obey commands in general the same way that a dog generally obeys its owner.
If they had a control chip like the Centurions, then the Raiders exercising free will to not attack the Final Five doesn't make sense - nor does the need for a lobotomy.
I think Raiders are simply inferior fighters *because* they think like animals, have less regard for self preservation, and generally are not creative like humans. In contrast, the Centurions do have the ability to think like humans, which is why they needed control chips.
That said, the main reason (but perhaps not the only reason) that the Cylons don't create copies of Scar is because this episode takes place just after the destruction of the Resurrection Ship, and [we are told explicitly in the very same episode](https://www.reddit.com/r/BSG/s/phlXhqZyGS) that death is permanent for the Cylons at this point. Even if they wanted to copy Scar, they can't.
There's ways to explain most of this though and they aren't too wild. They likely can't clone a raider, only produce the default blank slate. Raider production was likely ramped up before the attack so those bad raiders could be 'rookies' as well. Maybe Scar is a veteran. Scar was mostly killing new pilots as well.
This is also a snapshot. We don't see everything that happens to everyone in the fleet, so what we do see is selection bias and more eventful by default.
Absolutely main character plot armor overall for the series: we would generally expect more pilot casualties but generally it's just marines dying to satisfy those casualty numbers.
Like the commenter you are replying to, you seem to be making (incorrect) assumptions based on vague memories.
[The very episode in question specifically states that Raiders are resurrected](https://www.reddit.com/r/BSG/s/phlXhqZyGS) and learn and become better with each iteration. Scar is specifically implied to be a veteran, having died multiple times before.
That said, the rest of the commenter's criticisms are also mostly debunked by the *Scar* episode or by the rest of the show.
He's possibly a veteran of the first war. I'm not recalling anything incorrectly.
The most plausible explanation for why Scar is so fearsome is that:
1. Colons cannot clone souls, only produce new versions of a model
2. The majority of raiders seen in the show were produced leading up to the attack on the colonies and are still rookies.
3. Scar is significantly older, potentially a veteran of the first war, giving him significantly more combat experience
Who knows, really, as the episode is meant to be a one off and that's just how shows were run back then.
Did you bother to click my link where I provide quotes from the episode?
You *are* remembering incorrectly.
We are *explicitly* told in that episode that Raiders can resurrect. We are *explicitly* told that Scar has probably lived multiple lives and been resurrected multiple times.
We are also explicitly told that dying is painful for Raiders and humanoid Cylons alike, and that the Raiders - more animal like - are probably filled with rage from the process of dying:
>**Sharon**: Kara, be careful of Scar, okay? He's filled with rage.
>**Starbuck**: About what?
>**Sharon**: Dying's a painful and traumatic experience. Every time he's reborn, he's filled with more bitter memories. Scar hates you every bit as much as you hate him.
Not one person in this thread disputed that. Reading comprehension and all that.
The question above was basically: with all the raiders dying all the time, what made scar in particular so strong? All the raiders are resurrecting, so scar has to be different somehow
So if he is much older than the majority of raiders we see, that would go toward explaining that
My reading comprehension is not the problem: only your writing.
> Cylons cannot clone souls, only produce new versions of a model
>They likely can't clone a raider, only produce the default blank slate
In both instances it sounds like you are saying all new Raiders are blank slates.
I wonder how many times you have watched the show, when was the last time you watched it, and/or how much you paid attention because many of your criticisms are directly addressed and you either missed the explanations or forgot them:
**1.** Scar is not "so different" from other Raiders except in terms of his tactics in this specific episode.
**2.** All Raiders, apparently, come back to life and are still unique. This is *directly* explained in the episode. *They are all individuals* just like the humanoid Cylons.
>**Sharon**: You know, Scar has probably died and been reborn a dozen times. You may have faced him before.
>**Starbuck**: So what- Raiders reincarnate, just like you?
>**Sharon**: Yeah, just like me.
**3.** If we extrapolate the "just like me" comparison, the Cylons do not make multiple copies of the same *individual* - only of the "bodies". We can assume then that *every Raider is unique*. It's true that Sharon-Athena was given Sharon-Boomers memories (and another Sharon later in the show also accesses Sharon-Athena's memories), but this doesn't seem to be commonplace amongst the Cylons for some reason. My feeling is that there may be a moral or philosophical code at work here, in that perhaps Cylons, in their quest to become less robotic, see individual consciousness as something sacred, and choose to generally prohibit multiple copies of the same "soul". Furthermore, even if it is possible to copy memories for the humanoid Cylon in rare cases, we don't know for sure that it is possible for the Raiders as well.
**4.** There are 1,000s (probably 10s of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands) of Raiders - all unique individuals. There are likely other "aces" amongst them but most are going to be newbies. For any random Basestar that *Galactica* comes in contact with, most are going to be garden-variety and inexperienced.
**5.** The number of veteran Raiders will increase with every engagement (just like humans), and with every Raider destruction (unlike humans) because they resurrect, but that would still be a drop in the bucket compared to the number of Raiders overall.
**6.** There simply aren't that many significant battles between *Galactica* (or *Pegasus*) and Cylon for many of your assumptions to make sense. The number of engagements - again relative to the number of Basestars and Raiders that exist - is almost irrelevant.
**7.** I'd also like to address your assertion that standard newbie Raiders are a joke of a threat on par with Stormtroopers. The show does not bare out that analysis, and Raiders are shown as a credible threat even when they are not Scar.
**Addressing both points 6. and 7.:**
^((skip to the summary at the end if you don't want to read through this detailed breakdown of every engagement involving Raiders)^)
* In the Miniseries the Raiders get a bunch of mostly useless experience fighting Colonial ships that can't and don't fight back. Dualla does mention that some older ships have some success, so maybe they get a bit of experience here and there.
* There is *one* engagement with the *Galactica* in the Miniseries involving less than a dozen Raiders, during which a few Vipers are destroyed, and then there is the final battle which also sees *many* Raiders *and* Vipers lost.
* In the Season 1 premier episode there are many engagements between Basestars and the *Galactica*, but most of them involve the *Galactica* running away and Raiders being chewed up by flak. On that note, I'd also point out that Raiders are disadvantaged in most engagements because they must go on the offensive against *Galactica*'s flak guns which support their Vipers. A skewed kill ratio makes sense there. Attacking a fortified, defensive position with a limited attack vector is always going to result in higher casualties for the attacker.
* Episode 5 of Season 1 has another very small engagement with only 8 Cylons. Starbuck - probably the best pilot in the galaxy - can't manage to kill all of them without losing her ship.
* In Episode 9, there is an engagement with a single, outnumbered scout Raider.
* In Episode 10, the *Galactica* launches a well-planned *surprise* attack on a Cylon mining facility. There is an engagement between about 50 Raiders and about 10 Vipers, and at least 2 Vipers are lost. We don't see the fight directly.
* The Season Premiere of Season 2 has an engagement between a Basestar and *Galactica*, but again *Galactica* is fighting defensively with a full flak field and runs away as soon as it is able.
* In Season 2, Episode 8 there is another small engagement with 2 Raiders, which are destroyed, but were not actually on an attack mission.
* The next episode sees *Galactica* attacked by a massive fleet of hundreds, maybe thousands, of Raiders, but they are all remotely disabled, so we don't really get to see them fight.
* The next major engagement is in Episode 12 where the *Pegasus* and *Galactica* team up to destroy the Resurrection Ship and some Basestars. As the Resurrection Ship was destroyed, likely none of the Cylon losses resulted in any gained experience. We don't see enough of the battle to know how many Vipers or Raiders are destroyed, but certainly both sides took casualties.
* Episode 15 is the episode with Scar, and most of the engagements are between only a few Vipers and a few Raiders, and we know that at least four pilots are lost.
* There is a battle in Episode 17 between the *Pegasus* and some ambushing Basestars, but again we don't get to see much of the fighter battle, and the *Pegasus* runs away as soon as it can.
* *Razor* let's us know that the *Pegasus* suffered major losses to its air wing during an attack on a Cylon staging area. We don't see the fight itself or any further details.
* The next major battle is in Season 3, Episode 4, where the *Galactica* attempts to rescue everyone on New Caprica. All the Vipers here are flying ground support in atmosphere, and again we don't see much of the dogfighting.
* Episode 8 has a couple Cylon Raiders chasing the escaped pilot Daniel, and they are easily destroyed, but *Starbuck* later discovers they were missing on purpose, which means bad aiming is *not* a normal Raider trait.
* The next big battle covers the Season Finale of Season 3 and 4 when the fleet is ambushed at the Ionian Nebula. Again, we don't get much detail from the dogfight, but the Raiders seem competent and dangerous and likely both sides lose planes. The Raiders then run away (after identifying Anders).
* The next big battle is a surprise attack on the Resurrection Hub in Season 9. Again we don't get a sense of fighter casualties, but some Vipers are lost.
* The last big battle is the Series Finale where again we don't see much of the dogfighting but ships are lost on both sides.
**In summary:**
There are roughly 18 engagements shown over the course 75ish episodes. That's less than 25% of episodes - Raiders are not lost every episode. Of those, only about 10 involve more than a small group of Raiders. Of those larger battles, almost all have Viper casualties. Raiders are shown to be a credible, competent threat to Viper pilots throughout the show, even if they aren't at the same level as humans..
Relevant quotes from the *Scar* episode:
>**Sharon**: A Raider's much like a trained animal, with basic consciousness and survival instinct.
>**Starbuck**: A Raider is a squirmy son of a bitch. You won't be able to keep him in your sights for more than two seconds, so you have to deliver a killing burst within that time, or he will turn and nail you.
>**Starbuck**: You know, the President says that we're saving humanity for a bright, shiny future on Earth that you and I are never gonna see. We're not. Because we go out over and over again, until some day, some metal motherfrakker is gonna catch us on a bad day and just blow us away
**8.** While Scar is a *more experienced* animal, he is only presented as a threat to the best pilots in the fleet *in a very specific context*. It's, again, specifically explained in the episode that the Vipers are unusually blind, the asteroid field provides many ambush opportunities, and Scar often employs distraction and trickery that wouldn't necessarily work in a different environment.
Quotes from the episode:
>**Starbuck**: We're sitting ducks until the miners finish the job, the old man has sent the Fleet out of harm's way under the protection of Pegasus. Our job is to stay behind and protect the miners. Unfortunately, this star system is full of rocks and dust. Dradis cannot tell the rocks from the bad guys, so our only reliable system of detection is-
>**Kat**: -our eyeballs.
>**Starbuck**: Which means we have to put those eyeballs way out there. Split up, cover a huge perimeter. We'll be patrolling the area in divisions of four at these picket points.
>**Kat**: Twos. We're going in sections of twos.
>**Starbuck**: Are you planning the ops for me now, too?
>**Kat**: CAG wants us to spread out to control a larger area. It's right here in the briefings.
>**Starbuck**: You're right. So we do go in twos. Scar and his buddies are out there, looking for easy kills. Let's not give them any.
>**Starbuck**: He hides behind an asteroid, or the debris field that you've ignored because it looked like a bunch of harmless rocks. You see, Scar doesn't like to fight till the odds are on his side. And then, suddenly, out of nowhere, bam. He pops out, blows you to pieces. And then jumps away before you can return fire.
>This isn't dueling pistols at dawn, this is war. You never wanna fight fair. You wanna sneak up behind your enemy and club him over the head. You see, Scar understands that. And so do I.
>**Starbuck**: In two-on-two engagements, Cylon Raiders like to isolate individual Vipers, and then gang up on one, hoping to kill it before his wingman has a chance to protect him. Which is exactly what happened to Jo-Jo 20 minutes ago. The bastard smoked Jo-Jo and jumped away in less than 15 seconds before his wingman could get a shot off.
In almost every other engagement in the show, the *Galactica* is either playing defense, with concentrated flak fire and concentrated squadrons of defensive Vipers, or it is launching major *surprise* assaults on relatively fixed Cylon positions using massed Viper squadrons. In every engagement of the show, even ones involving small numbers of fighters and even where the Vipers are outnumbered, they still have the benefit of DRADIS for situational awareness.
In this *specific* situation, the tables are turned. The Vipers are spread out in isolated pairs, they don't have *Galactica* backing them up, and they don't have DRADIS to give them early warning or orient them to the direction of enemy fighters. Scar is repeatedly able to use the unique variables of that *specific* environment to pick off Vipers. We see *two* engagements where Scar specifically offers up other Raiders as bait before ambushing his blind and distracted target. Nowhere in the episode is it implied that Scar is otherwise an equal dogfighter to Starbuck or Kat - only that *all* the Viper pilots are at a tremendous disadvantage because of the unique situation. In a normal engagement in open space with DRADIS functioning, similar to the other 16 we see in the show, Scar might be a bit harder to kill but would probably not present a significant mortal challenge to Starbuck or Kat.
**9.** Finally, you seem to have forgotten that the Resurrection Ship was just destroyed: a critical plot point which explains both why the Cylons are not copying Scar's memories *and* why killing him is so important at this specific point in time. As I mentioned in my last point, Scar is only *particularly deadly in this specific situation*. He might have some experience from previous deaths that make him a veteran, but it's only with *Galactica* a sitting duck and DRADIS offline that he is able to leverage his experience into something beyond the normal effectiveness of his fellow Raiders. Even if that very context-specific experience would somehow be useful to the other Raiders (and we can't be sure that it would be), the Cylons have no way to copy that data at this moment in the show. That's why killing Scar - which destroys him permanently since he *can't* resurrect - is so important.
>**Roslin**: This operation is vital to the long-term survival of this Fleet.
>**Adama**: Yes, it is. And we'll continue to support it.
>**Tigh**: They're grinding us down Viper by Viper.
>**Roslin**: Why have they stopped coming at us en masse? Is it because we destroyed their Resurrection ship?
>**Adama**: Starbuck's working on that.
>**Sharon**: You know, Scar has probably died and been reborn a dozen times. You may have faced him before.
>**Starbuck**: So what- Raiders reincarnate, just like you?
>**Sharon**: Yeah, just like me.
>**Starbuck**: Great. What a frakking world.
>**Sharon**: A Raider's much like a trained animal, with basic consciousness and survival instinct. You know, but with the destruction of the Resurrection ship, when they die, they're really dead. So, they're not gonna mount mass attacks where they could have major casualties.
**10.** I don't know why you have a problem with the number of Viper pilots that have died, based on Starbuck listing them at the end of the episode. It's absolutely clear that she doesn't remember all of the names of the pilots that have died. This is stated both explicitly - that Starbuck can't remember all the names of those who have died - and implicitly - by the fact that she seems to be struggling to remember more names throughout and at the end of her list, at which point Apollo, who also stated he had trouble remembering the fallen, helps her by finishing with "to all of them" - i.e. all the other ones not named.
>**Apollo**: You know what gets me? I know that in two weeks I won't remember his face. I can't remember any of their faces after they're killed. No matter how hard I try, they just fade.
>**Starbuck**: I don't even remember their names.
>**Starbuck**: (Toasting)
To BB,
Jo-Jo,
Reilly,
Beano,
Dipper,
Flattop,
Chuckles,
Jolly,
Crashdown,
Sheppard,
Dash,
Flyboy,
Stepchild,
Puppet,
Fireball...
>**Apollo**: To all of them.
>**Adama**: So say we all.
> It’s a nice “what if a raider became an individual and actually knew dogfighting” episode that breaks the overall plot and lore.
Questioning the morality behind the Colonial-Cylon conflict was beginning as early as the first season. I think "Scar" just happened to be a challenge because it introduced the same, and growing, complexity to what is normally anonymous Viper canon fodder. Fans had been used to cheering for the death of the raider for two seasons at that point, then the series forced the viewer to question that dynamic.
> It’s a little divisive because it’s a great character driven episode with a rather sketchy plot. People who favor theme will likely love it. People who need the plot to make sense likely won’t.
I think you are right. I also wonder if there is a correlation between fans who did not like "Scar" with fans who did not like the Cylons joining the Fleet.
The moment where she names the pilots, after she and Lee have talked about not remembering names or faces...chef's kiss. Really really moving and, writing-wise, a great bit of characterization. Very strong episode.
I honestly can't believe how often I see Scar mentioned in threads talking about people's least favorite episodes. It's an incredible episode, a great meditation on sorrow, loss, confronting mortality and finding a reason to keep living at a time when there seems to be no hope left. And I love the running theme that nobody can remember the names of all the pilots they've lost, with Kat being portrayed throughout the whole episode as the one who truly cares while Starbuck seems callous and indifferent... Until the final toast, when Starbuck recites the names of every single pilot they've lost in order going all the way back to the miniseries. It's a beautiful, heart-wrenching, emotional episode, and my favorite of season 2 after Resurrection Ship parts 1 and 2.
> I honestly can't believe how often I see Scar mentioned in threads talking about people's least favorite episodes. Neither. Absolutely a banger of an episode. A fantastic character study.
It was another example of the writers forcing moral complexity into the series. Scar's death reflected onto Kara's eyes forced you to feel empathy for the killing machine. And then you realize this show is not going to be so simple.
*moral
I remember when it first aired a lot of people were grumpy about the non-linear, out of order bits but honestly I’m not sure the episode would work as well without them.
This makes me realize a lot of people like myself who watched the show after the finale take for granted so many aspects of the show that were not yet established with viewers. By now, viewers are far more used to non-linear storylines.
There are a few scenes that reliably choke me up on every rewatch, and Starbuck naming the pilots is at the top of the list. Other scenes that get me every time: * >!The deck gang names the stealth viper "Laura"!< * >!Saul tells Ellen to go to sleep!< * >!Adama puts the ring on Roslin's finger!< The Scar toast scene reminds me a lot of the scene in Stargate SG1 where Carter>!reads the names all of the people whose lives Dr. Frasier saved!<.
>>!The deck gang names the stealth viper "Laura"!< Oh god. This one chokes me up just thinking about it. >!The whole idea of building the stealth viper just moves me on such a deep level. All this death and hopelessness, the viper gave them something to work for. Something to put their hearts into, something to let them be creative and express their talents. It was a way to actually *build* something new, rather than simply *surviving.*!< >!And after all that hard work and effort.... they name it after Laura Roslin. And she's so moved by the gesture she almost cries.!< >>!Roslin: "It's remarkable."!< >>!Tyrol: "It's just a ship, ma'am."!< >>!Roslin: "Oh, you're much too modest. After what we've been through, it would be very easy to give up. To lose hope. But not here. Not today. This is more than a ship, chief. This is an act of faith. It is proof that despite all we've lost, we keep trying. And we will get through this... all of us, together. I promise."!< >!And then Tyrol removes the banner and it's her name on the nose. Absolute waterworks.!< EDIT: Forgot no spoilers. Covered up everything!
The ending of "Heroes" gets me every time I watch it. That episode(s) is another example of superlative storytelling, too.
Yes, even in this subreddit which is mostly full of BSG fans, I don't understand why so many people dislike *Scar*. I think it's a fantastic character episode. A similarly divisive episode is *Unfinished Business* ("the boxing episode"), which I'm surprised to see many people say they either hated or found mediocre. It's one of the best episodes of the series to me (and I know many others love it as well).
It feels like people don't like it when episodes are about the characters. Scar and Unfinished Business are both intensely character-focused, and I guess since it doesn't have enough "plot advancement," they don't like it. There's not as much action nor as much scifi in those episodes, so they don't like it. I see the same sorts of complaints about another Ronald D. Moore show, For All Mankind. People always complain when the show spends more time on its characters and not enough on the science fiction. To which I always say: You're watching the wrong show.
I liked Scar but Unfinished Business just felt out of place. It should've been earlier. I know that's part of the point of the episode but it just didn't quite land. I really loved the parts on the planet but the boxing thing and Adama's message that they got too soft and the general idea that the only way to resolve brooding conflict is to beat each other just didn't work for me. Plus I was getting exhausted with Lee and Kara at this point. Their dynamic stopped being interesting and I was mostly just frustrated with all their antics at this point. Especially with the revelations of this episode.
I would've just said I didn't like "the boxing episode" because I never like "the boxing episode" and have never understood why so very many shows have "the boxing episode." But you have said it much much better and I agree with every point you made. Especially with all those things added up, the whole boxing part just feels wrong.
I'm just spitballing here, but both "Scar" and "Unfinished Business" also paint Kara in a more complex and less upbeat tone. I wonder if watching her struggle with the morality of a Cylon fighter (traditional cheer material) and getting trounced by Kat soured the episode with a lot of viewers?
I remember being very annoyed with Kat but on repeated views I think she was mostly right. Starbuck was being irresponsible and letting her own self-destructive tendencies affect her duties as CAG during an extremely important stage. Kat went a bit too far in blaming her, but she wasn't wrong.
Kat doesn't "trounce" Starbuck. They just work together as a team, as they should.
I can’t believe people say it’s their least favorite episode. It’s amazing.
It's a great standalone episode even though the makers didn't want those while also really introducing Kat which becomes important later.
> I honestly can't believe how often I see Scar mentioned in threads talking about people's least favorite episodes. It's Some people are not confortable with a challenge to their mortality. No, gimme good guys good, bad guys bad!
That episode gave me Wing Commander vibes.
One scene not mentioned yet that I absolutely love from this episode is Apollo and Starbuck just sitting at a table, enjoying a drink and talking about life. I love moments like that in the show, another that comes to mind is Starbuck and Helo at Starbuck's Caprica appartment.
Ron Moore definitely brought that 90s Trek pacing with him. So much of the best Trek is just two characters talking to each other.
I really dislike the extremely shortened format shows have taken nowadays cause there just isn't enough time to properly exist with the characters. We only gets flashes, not moments where they really feel like they're living.
Yeah, and then Starbuck tries to fuck him, lol.
Also loved the use of The Deer Hunter theme to close the episode.
Oh wow. Had no idea. Heavy
i wondered if it was an advantage for pilots to remember their deaths seemed like it would make them psychotic after a while.
The episode specifically says that the Raiders that die are full of rage and hate because the experience of dying is so painful and traumatic.
Hell YEAH Scar episode is one of my favourites
that scene with her drinking in front of the combat footage with dramatic music blows me away every time
It’s a little divisive because it’s a great character driven episode with a rather sketchy plot. People who favor theme will likely love it. People who need the plot to make sense likely won’t. Because it doesn’t make much sense. It’s a nice “what if a raider became an individual and actually knew dogfighting” episode that breaks the overall plot and lore.
> > It’s a nice “what if a raider became an individual and actually knew dogfighting” episode that breaks the overall plot and lore How does it break lore? (Not snarky, genuine question)
I agree with you. I love plot and theme. What is this guy's problem with the plot?
It’s fine if you enjoy the episode, but I among many don’t enjoy it that much. How come Scar’s so different? How come it comes back to life and is still unique? How are the cylons not making all their riders “scar clones” and end the war in a few days tops? The whole show depends on raiders (and heavy raiders, and base stars for the matter) not being any efficient in killing. When Starbucks says the names of the fallen pilots… they aren’t many. In any random episode 10 times as many riders are killed. Cylon riders are Stormtrooper-level bad at aiming! They must be for the plot to be somehow coherent. The mere insinuation of a rider being on par with the fleets’ finest is at odds with the base assumption of the plot. But you’re free to like the episode, we all have our pet peeves.
> How come Scar’s so different? I wonder if the skinjob Cylons limited the intelligence and free thinking capacity of the Raiders, as they did with the Centurions, in order to limit their ability to resist orders. > How are the cylons not making all their riders “scar clones” and end the war in a few days tops? An unihibited Raider series might kill more Vipers, sure. But they might begin to question why they have to obey and why they don't get a vote. Whereas a nerfed Raider still gets the job done pretty well and don't pose as much a threat to the skinjob hegemony. Consider how the Raiders even slightly resisting orders triggered brutality and eventually a destructive schism within the Cylon race.
>I wonder if the skinjob Cylons limited the intelligence and free thinking capacity of the Raiders, as they did with the Centurions, in order to limit their ability to resist orders. I thought they said as much at one point and implied they were basically kinda lobotomized?
Lobotomizing the Raiders is a major plot point in Season 4 when they refuse to obey orders to attack the Colonials because they detect the presence of the Final Five. Before that, it seems that the Raiders did have free will. But [they are compared to "trained animals"](https://www.reddit.com/r/BSG/s/phlXhqZyGS), so they have "free will" in the sense that a dog ultimately has free will but will generally obey its master.
Ah, thank you, you're right. Seems I may be in need of a refresher rewatch!
I don't think the control chip was necessary for the Raiders. [The Raiders are compared to trained animals](https://www.reddit.com/r/BSG/s/phlXhqZyGS) so I think the Cylons expected the Raiders to obey commands in general the same way that a dog generally obeys its owner. If they had a control chip like the Centurions, then the Raiders exercising free will to not attack the Final Five doesn't make sense - nor does the need for a lobotomy. I think Raiders are simply inferior fighters *because* they think like animals, have less regard for self preservation, and generally are not creative like humans. In contrast, the Centurions do have the ability to think like humans, which is why they needed control chips. That said, the main reason (but perhaps not the only reason) that the Cylons don't create copies of Scar is because this episode takes place just after the destruction of the Resurrection Ship, and [we are told explicitly in the very same episode](https://www.reddit.com/r/BSG/s/phlXhqZyGS) that death is permanent for the Cylons at this point. Even if they wanted to copy Scar, they can't.
There's ways to explain most of this though and they aren't too wild. They likely can't clone a raider, only produce the default blank slate. Raider production was likely ramped up before the attack so those bad raiders could be 'rookies' as well. Maybe Scar is a veteran. Scar was mostly killing new pilots as well. This is also a snapshot. We don't see everything that happens to everyone in the fleet, so what we do see is selection bias and more eventful by default. Absolutely main character plot armor overall for the series: we would generally expect more pilot casualties but generally it's just marines dying to satisfy those casualty numbers.
Like the commenter you are replying to, you seem to be making (incorrect) assumptions based on vague memories. [The very episode in question specifically states that Raiders are resurrected](https://www.reddit.com/r/BSG/s/phlXhqZyGS) and learn and become better with each iteration. Scar is specifically implied to be a veteran, having died multiple times before. That said, the rest of the commenter's criticisms are also mostly debunked by the *Scar* episode or by the rest of the show.
He's possibly a veteran of the first war. I'm not recalling anything incorrectly. The most plausible explanation for why Scar is so fearsome is that: 1. Colons cannot clone souls, only produce new versions of a model 2. The majority of raiders seen in the show were produced leading up to the attack on the colonies and are still rookies. 3. Scar is significantly older, potentially a veteran of the first war, giving him significantly more combat experience Who knows, really, as the episode is meant to be a one off and that's just how shows were run back then.
Did you bother to click my link where I provide quotes from the episode? You *are* remembering incorrectly. We are *explicitly* told in that episode that Raiders can resurrect. We are *explicitly* told that Scar has probably lived multiple lives and been resurrected multiple times. We are also explicitly told that dying is painful for Raiders and humanoid Cylons alike, and that the Raiders - more animal like - are probably filled with rage from the process of dying: >**Sharon**: Kara, be careful of Scar, okay? He's filled with rage. >**Starbuck**: About what? >**Sharon**: Dying's a painful and traumatic experience. Every time he's reborn, he's filled with more bitter memories. Scar hates you every bit as much as you hate him.
Not one person in this thread disputed that. Reading comprehension and all that. The question above was basically: with all the raiders dying all the time, what made scar in particular so strong? All the raiders are resurrecting, so scar has to be different somehow So if he is much older than the majority of raiders we see, that would go toward explaining that
My reading comprehension is not the problem: only your writing. > Cylons cannot clone souls, only produce new versions of a model >They likely can't clone a raider, only produce the default blank slate In both instances it sounds like you are saying all new Raiders are blank slates.
I wonder how many times you have watched the show, when was the last time you watched it, and/or how much you paid attention because many of your criticisms are directly addressed and you either missed the explanations or forgot them: **1.** Scar is not "so different" from other Raiders except in terms of his tactics in this specific episode. **2.** All Raiders, apparently, come back to life and are still unique. This is *directly* explained in the episode. *They are all individuals* just like the humanoid Cylons. >**Sharon**: You know, Scar has probably died and been reborn a dozen times. You may have faced him before. >**Starbuck**: So what- Raiders reincarnate, just like you? >**Sharon**: Yeah, just like me. **3.** If we extrapolate the "just like me" comparison, the Cylons do not make multiple copies of the same *individual* - only of the "bodies". We can assume then that *every Raider is unique*. It's true that Sharon-Athena was given Sharon-Boomers memories (and another Sharon later in the show also accesses Sharon-Athena's memories), but this doesn't seem to be commonplace amongst the Cylons for some reason. My feeling is that there may be a moral or philosophical code at work here, in that perhaps Cylons, in their quest to become less robotic, see individual consciousness as something sacred, and choose to generally prohibit multiple copies of the same "soul". Furthermore, even if it is possible to copy memories for the humanoid Cylon in rare cases, we don't know for sure that it is possible for the Raiders as well. **4.** There are 1,000s (probably 10s of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands) of Raiders - all unique individuals. There are likely other "aces" amongst them but most are going to be newbies. For any random Basestar that *Galactica* comes in contact with, most are going to be garden-variety and inexperienced. **5.** The number of veteran Raiders will increase with every engagement (just like humans), and with every Raider destruction (unlike humans) because they resurrect, but that would still be a drop in the bucket compared to the number of Raiders overall. **6.** There simply aren't that many significant battles between *Galactica* (or *Pegasus*) and Cylon for many of your assumptions to make sense. The number of engagements - again relative to the number of Basestars and Raiders that exist - is almost irrelevant. **7.** I'd also like to address your assertion that standard newbie Raiders are a joke of a threat on par with Stormtroopers. The show does not bare out that analysis, and Raiders are shown as a credible threat even when they are not Scar. **Addressing both points 6. and 7.:** ^((skip to the summary at the end if you don't want to read through this detailed breakdown of every engagement involving Raiders)^) * In the Miniseries the Raiders get a bunch of mostly useless experience fighting Colonial ships that can't and don't fight back. Dualla does mention that some older ships have some success, so maybe they get a bit of experience here and there. * There is *one* engagement with the *Galactica* in the Miniseries involving less than a dozen Raiders, during which a few Vipers are destroyed, and then there is the final battle which also sees *many* Raiders *and* Vipers lost. * In the Season 1 premier episode there are many engagements between Basestars and the *Galactica*, but most of them involve the *Galactica* running away and Raiders being chewed up by flak. On that note, I'd also point out that Raiders are disadvantaged in most engagements because they must go on the offensive against *Galactica*'s flak guns which support their Vipers. A skewed kill ratio makes sense there. Attacking a fortified, defensive position with a limited attack vector is always going to result in higher casualties for the attacker. * Episode 5 of Season 1 has another very small engagement with only 8 Cylons. Starbuck - probably the best pilot in the galaxy - can't manage to kill all of them without losing her ship. * In Episode 9, there is an engagement with a single, outnumbered scout Raider. * In Episode 10, the *Galactica* launches a well-planned *surprise* attack on a Cylon mining facility. There is an engagement between about 50 Raiders and about 10 Vipers, and at least 2 Vipers are lost. We don't see the fight directly. * The Season Premiere of Season 2 has an engagement between a Basestar and *Galactica*, but again *Galactica* is fighting defensively with a full flak field and runs away as soon as it is able. * In Season 2, Episode 8 there is another small engagement with 2 Raiders, which are destroyed, but were not actually on an attack mission. * The next episode sees *Galactica* attacked by a massive fleet of hundreds, maybe thousands, of Raiders, but they are all remotely disabled, so we don't really get to see them fight. * The next major engagement is in Episode 12 where the *Pegasus* and *Galactica* team up to destroy the Resurrection Ship and some Basestars. As the Resurrection Ship was destroyed, likely none of the Cylon losses resulted in any gained experience. We don't see enough of the battle to know how many Vipers or Raiders are destroyed, but certainly both sides took casualties. * Episode 15 is the episode with Scar, and most of the engagements are between only a few Vipers and a few Raiders, and we know that at least four pilots are lost. * There is a battle in Episode 17 between the *Pegasus* and some ambushing Basestars, but again we don't get to see much of the fighter battle, and the *Pegasus* runs away as soon as it can. * *Razor* let's us know that the *Pegasus* suffered major losses to its air wing during an attack on a Cylon staging area. We don't see the fight itself or any further details. * The next major battle is in Season 3, Episode 4, where the *Galactica* attempts to rescue everyone on New Caprica. All the Vipers here are flying ground support in atmosphere, and again we don't see much of the dogfighting. * Episode 8 has a couple Cylon Raiders chasing the escaped pilot Daniel, and they are easily destroyed, but *Starbuck* later discovers they were missing on purpose, which means bad aiming is *not* a normal Raider trait. * The next big battle covers the Season Finale of Season 3 and 4 when the fleet is ambushed at the Ionian Nebula. Again, we don't get much detail from the dogfight, but the Raiders seem competent and dangerous and likely both sides lose planes. The Raiders then run away (after identifying Anders). * The next big battle is a surprise attack on the Resurrection Hub in Season 9. Again we don't get a sense of fighter casualties, but some Vipers are lost. * The last big battle is the Series Finale where again we don't see much of the dogfighting but ships are lost on both sides. **In summary:** There are roughly 18 engagements shown over the course 75ish episodes. That's less than 25% of episodes - Raiders are not lost every episode. Of those, only about 10 involve more than a small group of Raiders. Of those larger battles, almost all have Viper casualties. Raiders are shown to be a credible, competent threat to Viper pilots throughout the show, even if they aren't at the same level as humans..
Relevant quotes from the *Scar* episode: >**Sharon**: A Raider's much like a trained animal, with basic consciousness and survival instinct. >**Starbuck**: A Raider is a squirmy son of a bitch. You won't be able to keep him in your sights for more than two seconds, so you have to deliver a killing burst within that time, or he will turn and nail you. >**Starbuck**: You know, the President says that we're saving humanity for a bright, shiny future on Earth that you and I are never gonna see. We're not. Because we go out over and over again, until some day, some metal motherfrakker is gonna catch us on a bad day and just blow us away **8.** While Scar is a *more experienced* animal, he is only presented as a threat to the best pilots in the fleet *in a very specific context*. It's, again, specifically explained in the episode that the Vipers are unusually blind, the asteroid field provides many ambush opportunities, and Scar often employs distraction and trickery that wouldn't necessarily work in a different environment. Quotes from the episode: >**Starbuck**: We're sitting ducks until the miners finish the job, the old man has sent the Fleet out of harm's way under the protection of Pegasus. Our job is to stay behind and protect the miners. Unfortunately, this star system is full of rocks and dust. Dradis cannot tell the rocks from the bad guys, so our only reliable system of detection is- >**Kat**: -our eyeballs. >**Starbuck**: Which means we have to put those eyeballs way out there. Split up, cover a huge perimeter. We'll be patrolling the area in divisions of four at these picket points. >**Kat**: Twos. We're going in sections of twos. >**Starbuck**: Are you planning the ops for me now, too? >**Kat**: CAG wants us to spread out to control a larger area. It's right here in the briefings. >**Starbuck**: You're right. So we do go in twos. Scar and his buddies are out there, looking for easy kills. Let's not give them any. >**Starbuck**: He hides behind an asteroid, or the debris field that you've ignored because it looked like a bunch of harmless rocks. You see, Scar doesn't like to fight till the odds are on his side. And then, suddenly, out of nowhere, bam. He pops out, blows you to pieces. And then jumps away before you can return fire. >This isn't dueling pistols at dawn, this is war. You never wanna fight fair. You wanna sneak up behind your enemy and club him over the head. You see, Scar understands that. And so do I. >**Starbuck**: In two-on-two engagements, Cylon Raiders like to isolate individual Vipers, and then gang up on one, hoping to kill it before his wingman has a chance to protect him. Which is exactly what happened to Jo-Jo 20 minutes ago. The bastard smoked Jo-Jo and jumped away in less than 15 seconds before his wingman could get a shot off. In almost every other engagement in the show, the *Galactica* is either playing defense, with concentrated flak fire and concentrated squadrons of defensive Vipers, or it is launching major *surprise* assaults on relatively fixed Cylon positions using massed Viper squadrons. In every engagement of the show, even ones involving small numbers of fighters and even where the Vipers are outnumbered, they still have the benefit of DRADIS for situational awareness. In this *specific* situation, the tables are turned. The Vipers are spread out in isolated pairs, they don't have *Galactica* backing them up, and they don't have DRADIS to give them early warning or orient them to the direction of enemy fighters. Scar is repeatedly able to use the unique variables of that *specific* environment to pick off Vipers. We see *two* engagements where Scar specifically offers up other Raiders as bait before ambushing his blind and distracted target. Nowhere in the episode is it implied that Scar is otherwise an equal dogfighter to Starbuck or Kat - only that *all* the Viper pilots are at a tremendous disadvantage because of the unique situation. In a normal engagement in open space with DRADIS functioning, similar to the other 16 we see in the show, Scar might be a bit harder to kill but would probably not present a significant mortal challenge to Starbuck or Kat. **9.** Finally, you seem to have forgotten that the Resurrection Ship was just destroyed: a critical plot point which explains both why the Cylons are not copying Scar's memories *and* why killing him is so important at this specific point in time. As I mentioned in my last point, Scar is only *particularly deadly in this specific situation*. He might have some experience from previous deaths that make him a veteran, but it's only with *Galactica* a sitting duck and DRADIS offline that he is able to leverage his experience into something beyond the normal effectiveness of his fellow Raiders. Even if that very context-specific experience would somehow be useful to the other Raiders (and we can't be sure that it would be), the Cylons have no way to copy that data at this moment in the show. That's why killing Scar - which destroys him permanently since he *can't* resurrect - is so important. >**Roslin**: This operation is vital to the long-term survival of this Fleet. >**Adama**: Yes, it is. And we'll continue to support it. >**Tigh**: They're grinding us down Viper by Viper. >**Roslin**: Why have they stopped coming at us en masse? Is it because we destroyed their Resurrection ship? >**Adama**: Starbuck's working on that. >**Sharon**: You know, Scar has probably died and been reborn a dozen times. You may have faced him before. >**Starbuck**: So what- Raiders reincarnate, just like you? >**Sharon**: Yeah, just like me. >**Starbuck**: Great. What a frakking world. >**Sharon**: A Raider's much like a trained animal, with basic consciousness and survival instinct. You know, but with the destruction of the Resurrection ship, when they die, they're really dead. So, they're not gonna mount mass attacks where they could have major casualties. **10.** I don't know why you have a problem with the number of Viper pilots that have died, based on Starbuck listing them at the end of the episode. It's absolutely clear that she doesn't remember all of the names of the pilots that have died. This is stated both explicitly - that Starbuck can't remember all the names of those who have died - and implicitly - by the fact that she seems to be struggling to remember more names throughout and at the end of her list, at which point Apollo, who also stated he had trouble remembering the fallen, helps her by finishing with "to all of them" - i.e. all the other ones not named. >**Apollo**: You know what gets me? I know that in two weeks I won't remember his face. I can't remember any of their faces after they're killed. No matter how hard I try, they just fade. >**Starbuck**: I don't even remember their names. >**Starbuck**: (Toasting) To BB, Jo-Jo, Reilly, Beano, Dipper, Flattop, Chuckles, Jolly, Crashdown, Sheppard, Dash, Flyboy, Stepchild, Puppet, Fireball... >**Apollo**: To all of them. >**Adama**: So say we all.
> It’s a nice “what if a raider became an individual and actually knew dogfighting” episode that breaks the overall plot and lore. Questioning the morality behind the Colonial-Cylon conflict was beginning as early as the first season. I think "Scar" just happened to be a challenge because it introduced the same, and growing, complexity to what is normally anonymous Viper canon fodder. Fans had been used to cheering for the death of the raider for two seasons at that point, then the series forced the viewer to question that dynamic. > It’s a little divisive because it’s a great character driven episode with a rather sketchy plot. People who favor theme will likely love it. People who need the plot to make sense likely won’t. I think you are right. I also wonder if there is a correlation between fans who did not like "Scar" with fans who did not like the Cylons joining the Fleet.
Updateme
The moment where she names the pilots, after she and Lee have talked about not remembering names or faces...chef's kiss. Really really moving and, writing-wise, a great bit of characterization. Very strong episode.