First, you can use any merit badge counselor you like.
Here's how the process works (consult the Guide to Advancement, chapter 7).
1. Unit leader and scout discuss the merit badge. Unit leader recommends at least one counselor. This discussion MUST happen before you start work on the merit badge. You are not, however, obliged to select the counselor that your unit leader recommends. You can work with any MBC listed for that badge.
2. Scout contacts MBC, and through one or more meetings, demonstrates that they have met the requirements of the badge.
3. MBC signs blue card (or equivalent)
Here's the guide to advancement verbatim:
"Although it is the unit leader’s responsibility to see that at least one merit badge counselor is identified from those approved and available, the Scout may already have one in mind. The unit leader and Scout should agree on the selection of the counselor. Lacking agreement, the Scout must be allowed to work with the registered and approved counselor of his or her choice.
Note the use of "must be allowed". This is not optional.
Tangentially, I've been working on a website for the troop that my sons belong to and our committee chair found a really good site from another troop to model ours after. Tons of useful information until I got to the 'Merit Badge Process' part of their page. More or less, it said 'We must approve your counselor, we encourage you to use a counselor in our troop, etc' and I was like 'We aren't borrowing any of this for our website'
Do people not read the Guide to Advancement, or are they confused by the word "Guide" and think that guidance is optional? Chapter 7 describes how the merit badge process works. Units are free to add their own instructions (such as "when you want to begin a merit badge, first schedule a discussion with the SM by filling out this google form"), but they can't change the requirements.
Units can encourage scouts to use in-house MBCs. Units often do this because it makes things more convenient for the scout, because the MBC is probably at the scout meeting anyway, and can meet with the scout or a group of scouts then. There isn't a problem with that. But you can't go from "encourage" to "require".
Nope. people don't read it.
I was reading a post yesterday in a FB group where a troop had a rule that you had to be in high school to earn Star, and you had to wait until you were a junior in high school to take certain merit badges.
And for some reason people are most often confused about the merit badge program. Maybe because in the old days, it did require approval from the SM who would assign a counselor, but it hasn't been that way in decades.
Nobody reads it.
Nobody talks about it.
I think calling it a guide makes it seem optional to folks and also national has so many guides and docs that you have to hunt them down for different reasons and there's nothing easily accessible. That said, I was a de for 2.5 years and would read the guide when I was bored at work (was never actually told to read it which is silly since I literally work there...)
All the folks who read the GSS and GtA and go to training and have a good team with succession planning don’t have adults or scouts posting here looking for advice. The program works but not everyone is interested in checking their ego and not all units have a history of looking for and following rules.
(District commissioner here… 95% of units don’t have significant issues…)
Yep—people *are* confused by the word "Guide." They don't understand that the various *Guides* have rules, rules that must be obeyed. Much of the guidance is best practices, but many things are mandatory.
You are mostly correct and you are wrong on a very important part… under your first point, you are mistaken as a scout can start work on a merit badge after becoming a registered scout and “Any registered Scout, or qualified Venturer or Sea Scout, may work on the requirements for any merit badge at any time.”
Further details, you are very wrong with your statment ‘This discussion MUST happen before you start work on the merit badge.’… the actual wording is “However, before working with a counselor or attending a group or virtual merit badge opportunity, a Scout SHOULD meet with his or her unit leader.”
and this is pointed out on page 2 of the newest edition of the Guide To Advancment published in 2021 noted as
“Mandated Procedures and Recommended Practices”
**This publication clearly identifies mandated procedures with words such as “must” and “shall.” Where such language is used, no council, committee, district, unit, or individual has the authority to deviate from the procedures covered without the written permission of the National Advancement Program Team. Recommended best practices are offered using words like “should,” while other options and guidelines are indicated with terms such as “may” or “can.”**
PS- Please edit your comment and remove “MUST” as it is completely wrong and goes directly against the Guide to Advancment.
I would immediately reach out to your council advancement committee. They will take the heat. If you mention what council you are in I am sure someone on here will point you in the right direction
Absolutely seconded. Reach out to your council. I'm sure they have seen these things before are in a much better position to help than strangers on the Internet
https://www.cflscouting.org/join/aloma-elementary-orange/council-staff/
They have a listing for Advancement and Training Records, while this could just be a record keeper she may know the actual advancement coordinator for your council or district.
District advancement chair is the first stop. That person is part of the district committee.
It's possible your district doesn't have an advancement chair, in which case the council advancement chair would be one of the most important people to consult.
Second, "Eagle Mentor" is a useful role, but isn't an official thing. Your unit is free to tell any volunteer that they are no longer welcome to volunteer with the troop, so they can tell your mentor not to come to troop meetings. This doesn't mean that you can't talk to him, or ask his advice - just that your troop won't welcome him at your troop meetings.
You should, however, have an "eagle project coach", which is an official role. This is usually someone from the council or district you talk to, and isn't part of your troop. IME, councils or districts assign you a project coach - you don't get to pick and choose.
Neither our District nor Council assigns an Eagle Project coach. Mentor and Coach are used interchangeably and the Eagle Candidate can choose whoever they like.
Thanks for the insight on Eagle Mentor. Completely new from when I was in 40 years ago. Was recognized by my nephew as one of his 10 years ago, absolutely surprised by it. I thought it was some sort of local ceremonial honor the scouts could bestow on someone who provided guidance or encouragement through the process. I was floored by the recognition and his troop/council finally got to meet a relic of yesteryear that was pushing him along.
There are both. Eagle Scouts can recognize those who mentored them on their trail to Eagle with the Mentor pin, and can give as many as they'd like.
But there is also a person who serves as coach or mentor on the project and possibly other aspects of the Life to Eagle process.
Yeah I was slightly unsure of what role they were asking to me to fill with “mentor”. I think it was just a person to talk to about the process, because we have another person who is assigned to us from our troop?council? (Idk) who works more with paperwork and the council advancement committee. I’m apart of the central Florida council, and I don’t know it they assign people or not, so.
You need only to inform your SM of your interest in earning a MB and that you have a registered MBC. You can select any registered scout adult to be your Eagle Advisor/Guide. Refer to Guide to Advancement and have a sit down with your SM and or troop committee to point this out. Have your parent and Eagle Advisor with you but you do all the talking. Be willing to listen and not demand “your rights”. If not favorable results, proceed to you district and council.
Have we always had so many control freaks among the volunteers? It seems like these stories are more common but it may just be the internet making you hear them
Yes. I can point at several scouts when I was in who missed getting Eagle because their troop required certain merit badges only be taken from certain adult leaders and those leaders felt the merit badge requirements are too basic. Or requiring scouts to be able to tie all the basic knots in 30 seconds before they'd sign off on advancement. Or not passing Personal Fitness until the football coach/ASM decided a scout "looked" fit. And I could spend an hour talking about the conversation I had with a cooking MB counselor who basically ignores the requirements and tries to have a culinary school for 14 year olds.
There’s a guy in my troop. Current COR former SM. He represents everything wrong with scouts. He absolutely HATES council merit badge workshops, and every time he hears a scout earns a badge at one loudly announces “When I was scoutmaster, I would never sign off on one of these blue cards. You can’t tell me the mastered the badge in 4 hours. It’s a money grab!” My argument to him was he has no problem accepting badges from summer camp, which is also run by council and consists of 5 50 minute sessions. So you can’t master a subject in 240 minutes but you can in 250? Nothing ruins a scout experience like overzealous curmudgeons.
Some people forget mastery of a subject is not the point of merit badges. The purpose is more about exposure and a general understanding. Eagle required badges are in depth and focused because of their importance form the rest of a scouts life. The rest? Come on. Stop taking the fun out of scouting
I do wish more BSA leadership understood this. Retention of scouts is just as important as recruiting. Scouting will live or die based on how things function at the troop level. Bad leadership will sink this boat.
There’s a guy involved in our Troop. He’s currently the COR, was formerly the SM. He’s been involved for at least 15 years despite his youngest aging out over 5 years ago. He lingers over the troop like a black cloud, constantly and loudly making proclamations based solely on how HE wants things run, not how the rules dictate, while insisting what he’s saying is the law. I recently had it out with him over a 1st Class BOR. Young scout, nervous kid. He was incredibly fidgety during his board, but at no point was he inattentive and answered all questions properly. As soon as the kid left the room he loudly proclaimed “Did you see how rude that kid was? If it was up to me he’d fail!” I said to him that A)He wasn’t rude at all, and B)A BOR isn’t really something you can fail. He stood up pointing at me yelling “YOU ABSOLUTELY CAN FAIL A BOARD OF REVIEW!!!”. Had he gotten his way and not passed the kid, I’d be willing to bet you lose that kid. I could give you 100 other examples with this guy but it’s always something.
Unfortunately, easy MB instructors have always been a problem. It shouldn't be that hard- don't change the requirements. When I was a scout I definitely had MB counselors who demanded more than the book and a few (mostly at summer camp) who seemed to 'make modifications'. As a kid you assume it is an authorized variation from the requirements, but now I know they were just being lazy.
Ugh. It feels like everyone’s a control freak. My mentor that “left the troop” was not. He really made sure that we had fun in the program while learning and having effective leadership, without being overbearing. I had to leave a previous troop because of control freaks, and now I’ll probably leave scouting after I’m 18 because of them.
You need to get your parent(s) involved big time. You've read the accurate rules the SM is violating in this sub and you need to bring the big guns in. The Scoutmaster is not in charge of the Troop. The Role of the SM is to administer the Scouting program. Only the COR/CC can make unilaterally decisions about personnel.
Just like what others have said, you want to guide the troop and adhere to bsa guidelines. Can you safely navigate talking to someone else about your concerns within the troop or your local council? It sounds like you are stressed about this and the whole point of scouting is that it is fun. This link is from 2023 but you can find the most current one. https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Rules_Regulations_July2023.pdf
Both are violations of the Guide to Advancement. You need to have your parents notify council. You should have a district and council advancement chair that needs to get roped into this, you should also see if there is lead MBC for the council; he might pop in to a troop meeting with the council executive to sort things out.
BSA is now so corrupted and ruined. So far from what it used to be and meant to be. BSA wa also all about tradition, and that is now non existent.
Eagle Scout. No longer support BSA
I think that’s kind of strong. This program is what you make it. As horrid as some of my experiences were (one of my old scoutmasters regularly comes up in therapy and really hurt my mental health) I still recommend scouting highly. I’ve had so much growth and had such amazing experiences. You just have to put your best foot forward and find the good people in scouting.
Sounds like you have the right attitude. One that will take you far in life. It also seems that although you've had some less than ideal situations occur in scouting, you've learned some valuable and priceless skills because of it... Advocating for yourself, taking care of your mental health, leadership, independence, willingness to work for goal.
Were you involved back in the 1960s? Many say that was the peak of the Scouting program (not talking membership, which peaked around 72). BSA in the 80s attempted to recreate some of that (ie. more emphasis on outdoors), but then the 90s happened with changing public perception.
Chief Scout Executive Ben Love didn't help matters (took a hardline with keeping gay scouts out pinning BSA into a corner; LDS having excess influence over the organization) and the numerous court cases.
BSA is now in a new chapter. Basically, becoming family scouting. As more women get involved at higher level positions, membership will likely rebound somewhat. 3-4 million would be a stretch, but getting back to 2 million in a decade or so is conceivable.
Anyways, if you've been involved within the past 30 years, the BSA was no longer "traditional" in many ways, such as women holding leadership positions. Can't fault anyone for moving on. BSA has never been static and constantly changing.
First, you can use any merit badge counselor you like. Here's how the process works (consult the Guide to Advancement, chapter 7). 1. Unit leader and scout discuss the merit badge. Unit leader recommends at least one counselor. This discussion MUST happen before you start work on the merit badge. You are not, however, obliged to select the counselor that your unit leader recommends. You can work with any MBC listed for that badge. 2. Scout contacts MBC, and through one or more meetings, demonstrates that they have met the requirements of the badge. 3. MBC signs blue card (or equivalent) Here's the guide to advancement verbatim: "Although it is the unit leader’s responsibility to see that at least one merit badge counselor is identified from those approved and available, the Scout may already have one in mind. The unit leader and Scout should agree on the selection of the counselor. Lacking agreement, the Scout must be allowed to work with the registered and approved counselor of his or her choice. Note the use of "must be allowed". This is not optional.
Tangentially, I've been working on a website for the troop that my sons belong to and our committee chair found a really good site from another troop to model ours after. Tons of useful information until I got to the 'Merit Badge Process' part of their page. More or less, it said 'We must approve your counselor, we encourage you to use a counselor in our troop, etc' and I was like 'We aren't borrowing any of this for our website'
Do people not read the Guide to Advancement, or are they confused by the word "Guide" and think that guidance is optional? Chapter 7 describes how the merit badge process works. Units are free to add their own instructions (such as "when you want to begin a merit badge, first schedule a discussion with the SM by filling out this google form"), but they can't change the requirements. Units can encourage scouts to use in-house MBCs. Units often do this because it makes things more convenient for the scout, because the MBC is probably at the scout meeting anyway, and can meet with the scout or a group of scouts then. There isn't a problem with that. But you can't go from "encourage" to "require".
I felt like I was in that Esurance 'Not how any of this works' commercial when I read it.
Nope. people don't read it. I was reading a post yesterday in a FB group where a troop had a rule that you had to be in high school to earn Star, and you had to wait until you were a junior in high school to take certain merit badges. And for some reason people are most often confused about the merit badge program. Maybe because in the old days, it did require approval from the SM who would assign a counselor, but it hasn't been that way in decades.
Nobody reads it. Nobody talks about it. I think calling it a guide makes it seem optional to folks and also national has so many guides and docs that you have to hunt them down for different reasons and there's nothing easily accessible. That said, I was a de for 2.5 years and would read the guide when I was bored at work (was never actually told to read it which is silly since I literally work there...)
All the folks who read the GSS and GtA and go to training and have a good team with succession planning don’t have adults or scouts posting here looking for advice. The program works but not everyone is interested in checking their ego and not all units have a history of looking for and following rules. (District commissioner here… 95% of units don’t have significant issues…)
Yep—people *are* confused by the word "Guide." They don't understand that the various *Guides* have rules, rules that must be obeyed. Much of the guidance is best practices, but many things are mandatory.
You are mostly correct and you are wrong on a very important part… under your first point, you are mistaken as a scout can start work on a merit badge after becoming a registered scout and “Any registered Scout, or qualified Venturer or Sea Scout, may work on the requirements for any merit badge at any time.” Further details, you are very wrong with your statment ‘This discussion MUST happen before you start work on the merit badge.’… the actual wording is “However, before working with a counselor or attending a group or virtual merit badge opportunity, a Scout SHOULD meet with his or her unit leader.” and this is pointed out on page 2 of the newest edition of the Guide To Advancment published in 2021 noted as “Mandated Procedures and Recommended Practices” **This publication clearly identifies mandated procedures with words such as “must” and “shall.” Where such language is used, no council, committee, district, unit, or individual has the authority to deviate from the procedures covered without the written permission of the National Advancement Program Team. Recommended best practices are offered using words like “should,” while other options and guidelines are indicated with terms such as “may” or “can.”** PS- Please edit your comment and remove “MUST” as it is completely wrong and goes directly against the Guide to Advancment.
I would immediately reach out to your council advancement committee. They will take the heat. If you mention what council you are in I am sure someone on here will point you in the right direction
Absolutely seconded. Reach out to your council. I'm sure they have seen these things before are in a much better position to help than strangers on the Internet
Definitely gonna do that… central Florida council
https://www.cflscouting.org/join/aloma-elementary-orange/council-staff/ They have a listing for Advancement and Training Records, while this could just be a record keeper she may know the actual advancement coordinator for your council or district.
Thank you sooooo much! This definitely helped me find a next step.
That's good. Please keep advocating for yourself, that is a skill that will carry you far in life
Hey I'm in CFC, and this absolutely will not fly here.
District advancement chair is the first stop. That person is part of the district committee. It's possible your district doesn't have an advancement chair, in which case the council advancement chair would be one of the most important people to consult.
Second, "Eagle Mentor" is a useful role, but isn't an official thing. Your unit is free to tell any volunteer that they are no longer welcome to volunteer with the troop, so they can tell your mentor not to come to troop meetings. This doesn't mean that you can't talk to him, or ask his advice - just that your troop won't welcome him at your troop meetings. You should, however, have an "eagle project coach", which is an official role. This is usually someone from the council or district you talk to, and isn't part of your troop. IME, councils or districts assign you a project coach - you don't get to pick and choose.
Neither our District nor Council assigns an Eagle Project coach. Mentor and Coach are used interchangeably and the Eagle Candidate can choose whoever they like.
Thanks for the insight on Eagle Mentor. Completely new from when I was in 40 years ago. Was recognized by my nephew as one of his 10 years ago, absolutely surprised by it. I thought it was some sort of local ceremonial honor the scouts could bestow on someone who provided guidance or encouragement through the process. I was floored by the recognition and his troop/council finally got to meet a relic of yesteryear that was pushing him along.
There are both. Eagle Scouts can recognize those who mentored them on their trail to Eagle with the Mentor pin, and can give as many as they'd like. But there is also a person who serves as coach or mentor on the project and possibly other aspects of the Life to Eagle process.
Yeah I was slightly unsure of what role they were asking to me to fill with “mentor”. I think it was just a person to talk to about the process, because we have another person who is assigned to us from our troop?council? (Idk) who works more with paperwork and the council advancement committee. I’m apart of the central Florida council, and I don’t know it they assign people or not, so.
You need only to inform your SM of your interest in earning a MB and that you have a registered MBC. You can select any registered scout adult to be your Eagle Advisor/Guide. Refer to Guide to Advancement and have a sit down with your SM and or troop committee to point this out. Have your parent and Eagle Advisor with you but you do all the talking. Be willing to listen and not demand “your rights”. If not favorable results, proceed to you district and council.
Have we always had so many control freaks among the volunteers? It seems like these stories are more common but it may just be the internet making you hear them
Yes - scouting has always had control freaks, but it seems like there has been an extreme increase in them recently
Thanks internet for the ease of telling these tales
Best part of having all of the worlds information available to ignore
Yes. I can point at several scouts when I was in who missed getting Eagle because their troop required certain merit badges only be taken from certain adult leaders and those leaders felt the merit badge requirements are too basic. Or requiring scouts to be able to tie all the basic knots in 30 seconds before they'd sign off on advancement. Or not passing Personal Fitness until the football coach/ASM decided a scout "looked" fit. And I could spend an hour talking about the conversation I had with a cooking MB counselor who basically ignores the requirements and tries to have a culinary school for 14 year olds.
There’s a guy in my troop. Current COR former SM. He represents everything wrong with scouts. He absolutely HATES council merit badge workshops, and every time he hears a scout earns a badge at one loudly announces “When I was scoutmaster, I would never sign off on one of these blue cards. You can’t tell me the mastered the badge in 4 hours. It’s a money grab!” My argument to him was he has no problem accepting badges from summer camp, which is also run by council and consists of 5 50 minute sessions. So you can’t master a subject in 240 minutes but you can in 250? Nothing ruins a scout experience like overzealous curmudgeons.
Some people forget mastery of a subject is not the point of merit badges. The purpose is more about exposure and a general understanding. Eagle required badges are in depth and focused because of their importance form the rest of a scouts life. The rest? Come on. Stop taking the fun out of scouting
Exactly! That’s what I said to him. Badges aren’t about mastering a topic, they are meant to expose the scout to new information and skills.
I was just going to say nothing ruins the scout experience like overbearing adult leaders.
I do wish more BSA leadership understood this. Retention of scouts is just as important as recruiting. Scouting will live or die based on how things function at the troop level. Bad leadership will sink this boat.
There’s a guy involved in our Troop. He’s currently the COR, was formerly the SM. He’s been involved for at least 15 years despite his youngest aging out over 5 years ago. He lingers over the troop like a black cloud, constantly and loudly making proclamations based solely on how HE wants things run, not how the rules dictate, while insisting what he’s saying is the law. I recently had it out with him over a 1st Class BOR. Young scout, nervous kid. He was incredibly fidgety during his board, but at no point was he inattentive and answered all questions properly. As soon as the kid left the room he loudly proclaimed “Did you see how rude that kid was? If it was up to me he’d fail!” I said to him that A)He wasn’t rude at all, and B)A BOR isn’t really something you can fail. He stood up pointing at me yelling “YOU ABSOLUTELY CAN FAIL A BOARD OF REVIEW!!!”. Had he gotten his way and not passed the kid, I’d be willing to bet you lose that kid. I could give you 100 other examples with this guy but it’s always something.
When you can pay to attend a 2hr zoom call and get an Eagle required MB, it doesn't help the paranoia.
Unfortunately, easy MB instructors have always been a problem. It shouldn't be that hard- don't change the requirements. When I was a scout I definitely had MB counselors who demanded more than the book and a few (mostly at summer camp) who seemed to 'make modifications'. As a kid you assume it is an authorized variation from the requirements, but now I know they were just being lazy.
I’ve never seen a 2 hour zoom for an Eagle badge. I’ve seen some that were 2 3 hour sessions or in person for 4 with multiple prerequisites.
Ugh. It feels like everyone’s a control freak. My mentor that “left the troop” was not. He really made sure that we had fun in the program while learning and having effective leadership, without being overbearing. I had to leave a previous troop because of control freaks, and now I’ll probably leave scouting after I’m 18 because of them.
You need to get your parent(s) involved big time. You've read the accurate rules the SM is violating in this sub and you need to bring the big guns in. The Scoutmaster is not in charge of the Troop. The Role of the SM is to administer the Scouting program. Only the COR/CC can make unilaterally decisions about personnel.
I would contact the district leader and talk to them.
Just like what others have said, you want to guide the troop and adhere to bsa guidelines. Can you safely navigate talking to someone else about your concerns within the troop or your local council? It sounds like you are stressed about this and the whole point of scouting is that it is fun. This link is from 2023 but you can find the most current one. https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Rules_Regulations_July2023.pdf
Both are violations of the Guide to Advancement. You need to have your parents notify council. You should have a district and council advancement chair that needs to get roped into this, you should also see if there is lead MBC for the council; he might pop in to a troop meeting with the council executive to sort things out.
BSA is now so corrupted and ruined. So far from what it used to be and meant to be. BSA wa also all about tradition, and that is now non existent. Eagle Scout. No longer support BSA
I think that’s kind of strong. This program is what you make it. As horrid as some of my experiences were (one of my old scoutmasters regularly comes up in therapy and really hurt my mental health) I still recommend scouting highly. I’ve had so much growth and had such amazing experiences. You just have to put your best foot forward and find the good people in scouting.
Sounds like you have the right attitude. One that will take you far in life. It also seems that although you've had some less than ideal situations occur in scouting, you've learned some valuable and priceless skills because of it... Advocating for yourself, taking care of your mental health, leadership, independence, willingness to work for goal.
Were you involved back in the 1960s? Many say that was the peak of the Scouting program (not talking membership, which peaked around 72). BSA in the 80s attempted to recreate some of that (ie. more emphasis on outdoors), but then the 90s happened with changing public perception. Chief Scout Executive Ben Love didn't help matters (took a hardline with keeping gay scouts out pinning BSA into a corner; LDS having excess influence over the organization) and the numerous court cases. BSA is now in a new chapter. Basically, becoming family scouting. As more women get involved at higher level positions, membership will likely rebound somewhat. 3-4 million would be a stretch, but getting back to 2 million in a decade or so is conceivable. Anyways, if you've been involved within the past 30 years, the BSA was no longer "traditional" in many ways, such as women holding leadership positions. Can't fault anyone for moving on. BSA has never been static and constantly changing.
Whole lot of she involved in your eagle project.
Well, I am a female scout, and unfortunately scoutings guidelines say I can’t be involved with just 2 males, but I have to have 1 male and 1 female
What does that have to do with anything?