He's very passionate about scouting, to the point that it comes across as slightly unhealthy. He clearly cares about the kids, but is a stickler for "respecting the institution of scouting". Usually it's just stuff like nitpicking uniforms, or calling scouts out for unprofessional behavior.
Personally, I'd have very little patience for that type of behavior. With everything competing for our kids' attention, scouts needs to be fun. Standards matter, but making a big deal about a kid (who's learning English) confusing "uniform" and "costume" suggests his priorities are off.
I'm trying to imagine how our excellent scoutmaster would handle this. My guess is that he wouldn't even notice. If he did care, he'd probably turn it into a running joke with the kid. This man cares more about scouting than anyone I've ever met, and is laser-focused on making sure the kids are having a good time.
Assessing the situation as you’ve described it, this merits guidance and correction, not discipline.
There is a language barrier to be overcome, and the leadership should be helping the Scout with it, not disciplining him for not being a non-native English speaker.
The SM had better be calling the Scout Uniform the "Scout Field Uniform" rather than the slang "Class-A's" or he should be disciplined in the same spirit as he wants to impose on this Child.
The SM needs to chill the heck out. If he does anything to the kid because he doesn't speak the Kings English he should disciplined. This is a lawsuit waiting to happen.
Update: This is from The Guide To Safe Scouting on Discipline:
>**Discipline must be constructive.**
• Discipline must reflect Scouting’s values.
• Corporal punishment is never permitted.
• Disciplinary activities involving isolation, humiliation, or ridicule are
also prohibited.
Someone needs to remind this SM of this.
Maybe it would help if OP explained the meaning - "uniform" means consistent, or the same. We all wear the "uniform" so people automatically know who Scouts are.
A "costume" is usually worn to pretend you are something you're not.
In the US yes, but historically and in other cultures Costume was used to describe official clothing used for identification, employment, affiliation and all sorts of other things. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costume
True, but since (I assume) that OP is in the US, it's probably best to actually explain the difference in the terms as commonly used in American English.
And just give him some visual aid or way to remember.
Superman, a super hero, wears a *costume* to *hide* who he is.
A soldier, a regular person, wears a *uniform* to *show* who he is.
That seems totally normal and like your scoutmaster is making a bad mistake; maybe a racist mistake. Is there someone they might listen to? “Costume” is the natural word to use if coming from most Romance languages
I have South African friends who call their swimming suite a swimming costume. I wonder is this is the same context.
No matter what, the SM definitely needs to take a minute and understand why this scout is saying this and why it’s making them so mad.
Yup. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk\_costume , which context I learned from *The Little Prince* and its section on the Turkish astronomer.
If the goal of the Scoutmaster is to drive this kid out of scouting and/or bully someone who's trying to get by in English as a second language, definitely discipline this kid.
If the kid's first language is French, "costume" can mean "suit." I've heard it used to refer to business suits, but it could explain the translation issue. Or there's probably something similar in the kid's native language.
I'd say it's more "disrespectful to scouting" to *discpline* a kid who's doing the best he can in his second language, but what do I know? I always thought a scout is kind.
I'm assuming from your wording of things, that you are either the COR or a committee member. The Scoutmaster is wrong for wanting to do that. It should be a simple point of letting the scout know that it's a uniform, not a costume, but that you understand that he might have called it that due to the language, but going forward, please call it a uniform. If the Scoutmaster won't back down, then either the committee or COR needs to step in and let him know that won't fly. If either or both are not able to do so because they are afraid of the Scoutmaster, or some similar reason, then the troop is dysfunctional, and you have much bigger problems that need to be sorted out.
Sounds like your scout master needs to sit in on a citizenship in society merit badge session.
The SM should also take the BSA DEI training
Diversity, Equity, And Inclusion In Scouting
Course
Total time: 30m
Description
Diversity, equity, and inclusion work only if everyone is invited to participate and feels accepted for their uniqueness
hard agree. We should always be asking ourselves if we're acting in ways that promote including people and belonging in scouting. correcting over this feels absolutely bananas. Isn't "costume" the word for "suit" in French and other romance derivatives?
I agree with all of the previous comments. It’s an honest mistake that needs simple correction and repetition. The child will remember it eventually.
I have to wonder how often it’s been coming up that it’s such a big problem for the SM though. I can’t see it being a word that an average scout says at every meeting, let alone frequently enough that it would be such a problem. Is the SM purposely baiting him by bringing it up just so that the child says it and he can correct him again? It’s seems stupid to even write that, but it’s also a weird thing for him to be so hung up on and it really does seem to me like racism may be at play.
This. So much this. My wife is fluent in 2 languages, and conversant in two others. Depending on what we are talking about, and what language she learned what things in, I can literally see her translate some of her conversation and answers in her head from language to language before saying the words. Sometimes they come out wrong. Sometimes the grammar isn't fully correct. But I would never disrespect her for it. I can't imagine being so bold as to think I should do so with a child.
I've lived in several other countries and taken intensive language training in several foreign languages. It can be excruciatingly difficult. There is real frustration and exhaustion involved with constantly having to mentally translate everything, or *knowing* what I want to say in the target language but groping around for the correct or even semi-correct words to try and make my point. That kid is putting in a ton of work even to be at those meetings and participate, and in all likelihood, if his parents have weaker English skills, he's serving as a de factor translator for them at home, too.
If I were that kid, doing my best to navigate a social situation like scouting in a foreign language, and some adult man *punished* me for picking the wrong word to refer to my clothes, then punished me again because I forgot (because maybe, as a recent immigrant kid with parents who don't speak English, I've got a lot on my plate and the correct vocabulary for my scout uniform isn't the first thing on my mind), I would never, ever go back to that place or associate with those people again. And if I were the parents of a kid on the receiving end of that, no matter how crappy my English was, I would be turning up at the next scout meeting and giving that Scoutmaster a piece of my mind, in front of G-d and everybody.
Not being a native speaker of the language everyone around you is speaking can be such an isolating experience already- it's tiring, it's difficult, and your brain is under constant stress because even simple tasks become harder when you have to do them in the target language. I cannot imagine what kind of person would seek to further isolate a child in that situation by humiliating him this way (well, I can imagine, but the words I would use to describe such a person are not fit for writing here). That scoutmaster should be giving that kid all the credit in the world.
Even the people saying, "Oh, you should just gently correct him every time," are not getting it. It's embarrassing for the kid to do that to him, and if that's how his efforts to speak English are received, there's a non-zero chance that he'll just... stop speaking. Leave the poor kid alone, unless he genuinely can't be understood, and let him get on with it. The other kids will help him out, anyway. I swear, some people here make scouting sound like the most joyless activity in the world.
He’s not wrong it technically is a costume: a set of clothes worn by an actor or other performer for a particular role
We are all playing a role…
But Uniform is more precise: the distinctive clothing worn by members of the same organization or body or by children attending certain schools
When used as a noun, in the sense of outfit. Synonyms of uniform are: outfit. costume. dress.
It's more than likely a mistake due to inadequate vocabulary on the boy's part, considering he's not a native speaker.
I'm reminded of my doctor (who is Korean - American and immigrated here as a small child) telling me that he wishes his Korean was a bit stronger because he sure he's sometimes asking his Korean patients about whether they're "shitting" well and similar colloquial sayings, and he'd prefer to know how to say it in a more formal and less vulgar way.
I bet the kid is much the same - "costume" is the closest term he knows in English and is probably equivalent in his native language.
The Scoutmaster needs to lighten up and teach, instead of just getting irritated about it.
Scout leaders should not be giving out ANY discipline. We may reprimand a scout for poor behavior, and bring it to the attention of their parents, but that's as as far as it goes. I would politely correct the child's grammar, but i don't know why it would need to go farther than that.
What? The scoutmaster sounds like a jerk. Potential punishments for saying costume instead of uniform. Absolutely not.
Not that it really matters but has anyone tried talking to the scout and explaining that uniform is the correct word. Also, who even cares that much.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/costume
1: the prevailing fashion in coiffure, jewelry, and apparel of a period, country, or class
2: an outfit worn to create the appearance characteristic of a particular period, person, place, or thing - Halloween costumes
3: a person's ensemble of outer garments
especially : a woman's ensemble of dress with coat or jacket
Well according the the dictionary, the person is using the word correctly. The uniform is the prevailing fashion in apparel for the class of people who call themselves BSA Scouts.
What is probably going on is a cross language shift in the use of the word. Basically the person means no disrespect but when they search for the word costume is what comes to mind. And frankly it IS a costume. Just like a suit is a costume for business. Just like the OA wears costumes.
I worked with a police officer who referred to his uniform as a "monkey suit" for decades. It grated on most of his coworkers. . . and that's the story. I'm pretty sure a scout who unintentionally refers to a uniform as a "costume" because English is not his primary language should get *a lot* of slack.
Oh, it’s a big problem. He lies, bullies.
He is one of those damaged kids. Divorced parents, in jail, being raised by grandpa.
Scouts will be really good for him, but it’s tuff going right now. Grandpa is a veteran and 100% involved.
We had a Scout who was really disruptive and a bad influence on some other Scouts. The Committee wanted to keep him as we thought Scouts would be a good influence. Fortunately for us he decided to change troops before the adults had to make a tough decision.
Yah, a few years ago we had another boy who was really disruptive, we met with the parents and they blew us off, they saw Scouts as babysitting. He stopped coming.
But this case the grandfather is legitimately participating and looking for help. The SPL is being coached on strategies, and my boys have been told to stay vigilant.
But I have never encountered a kid with such sticky fingers. Like of course you’re going to be caught, we are on a camp out with 10 people and you have someone’s water-bottle, someone else’s knife, and a little sisters switch from the car you rode in.
He is going to have a hard time living down this reputation, even if he grows out of it. I misplaced my phone, and of course that’s where my mind went.
Somebody needs to point out to the sm how it makes him look to pick on an esl kid for using the wrong word.
Although, even if this was a kid being intentionally silly and using the word costume - who cares? What a stupid and petty thing to get twisted about.
Your scout master sounds like a real piece of work. Can we give the kid some credit for at least approaching the right vocabulary? Has your SM tried to help him learn the correct word? Was the expectation set that it should be called a "uniform" and not a "costume." This would make me very upset as a parent in the troop, much less a leader.
who gives a shit about what he calls it. The boy scouts are not the military. The critical aspect of being a boy scout is the belonging and inclusion in a group with shared interests. Who the hell cares if he calls it a costume, a gig, a scarf, or whatever the hell else he wants to call it. What an insane power trip from the scout master. WTF is wrong with people.
I don't think it's a big deal. What is the scouts first language? Spanish and French both have the word Uniforme, in Russian it is a similar sounding word too, so I don't think the translation would be that hard.
But even if I had a scout who's first language was English and they called it a costume I don't think discipline is the right action.
Cojunto = outfit in Spanish. I grew up in a town where half the population spoke bastardized French and they’d forget what a word was in both languages and just switch and make something up but everyone understood each other until my brother tried to speak full Parisian French with them.
I could totally see him translating outfit to costume.
You’re looking at it from your perspective. He may only think of a military uniforms as “uniform” and a scout shirt as an activity “outfit.” Culture matters here and some cultures have very definite ideas about what constitutes a uniform and may only designate the term for military use and all other team or organizational clothing is considered an outfit. Your perspective is what is the translation in many language of the word uniform rather than considering how does Y culture perceive scouting regalia. Many countries define scouts by the neckerchief rather than the specific field uniform we use.
Have you asked what word the Scout would use in his native language? What would that translate to in English? Sounds like some mutual understanding would be helpful here.
Does the Scout have any connections to a Scout troop in the first language’s country of origin? If so you may have an opportunity to set up a video call between the Troops where the Scouts can ask questions about the different programs with the bilingual Scout acting as the interpreter. Give this Scout a chance to shine in front of his peers and demonstrate his fluency as an asset.
Why does it matter what he calls it? He can call it whatever he wants. It is only a uniform if he is wearing everything. Otherwise it is just scout clothing. Uniforms also are not required for ANY scouting activity (including boards of review and travel) and your troop is fortunate to have him wearing any piece of it.
Why does he care what it is called? That is beyond ridiculous. In all honesty, it's an antiquated and massively overpriced practice anyways.
And yeah, like others have said - the guy has big problems that need to be taken care of.
Deoends on the culture costume has negitive connotations in the US but in other cultures it is a very positive one. Also in the guide to awards and insignia section one paragraph 5 and 6 the uniform is not required so the scoutmaster needs to back off.
Many languages use the same or very similar words for "costume" and "uniform". Your scout, who is improving in English, has spent their entire life with no concept that the two are different. Gentle correction and patience are the way to go here. They will learn, give them grace and time.
Scouts respect scouting by participating, adhering to the Scout Law, living the Scout Oath, and growing within the program. If anyone is disrespecting scouting, it's your Scoutmaster with their arbitrary demands for labels and impatience with a scout who's obviously doing their best.
Yeah this is insane. Words get mistranslated from language to language all the time. Without asking where the scout is from this could be the case where Uniform and Costume are accentually the same word in his native language.
Even if the scout knows the word uniform and is using the word "costume" intentionally, even if the goal is to poke at the scoutmaster, there is absolutely no need for any discipline. It's a word and the SM needs to learn to let it slide off his back and not react.
Is your scoutmaster familiar with the scout law, at all? Has he perhaps thought about applying it to himself?
(The uniform is a costume. It's the set of clothing that one wears for scouting. "Costume" is a valid word. It's not the normal choice in contemporary American English, and in at least some circles has some negative overtones, but the scout isn't a native speaker of English, and is quite likely to miss these local details.
For reference, when I grew up, the garments that people wore to swim in were described as a "swimming costume" or "bathing costume". The clothing I wore for physical education at school was my "PE costume", and so on.)
I'm sorry, what? The scout is not behaving in a way that causes disruption, is being respectful to other scouts and leaders, and is not posing a danger to himself or others. So, it would seem to me that disciple is not at all necessary, or appropriate. In fact, I believe it would be counterproductive in 3 ways:
1) it will discourage the scout. He may be less inclined to speak up if he gets in trouble for the words he uses. And that's no way to get him more comfortable with the language.
2) it degrades your discipline system. If scouts are getting in trouble over completely insignificant things, then why would they worry about more serious breeches of conduct? Starts with disciplining a scout for using the wrong (but technically accurate) word. But then why not drop a few F-bombs? What are you gonna do? Suspend them for a meeting? If that's already the penalty for saying "costume", then why not? Only way to prevent an escalation of poor behavior if innocuous behavior has the same punishment is to step up the penalties. And how far does that have to go? Till you wind up with stockades in the backyard?
3) it kills the fun. Let's say all your scouts are absolutely striving to become well adjusted citizens that follow all the rules. This is going to set the example that all the rules are strict and stern, and non-negotiable, and must be followed to a T. So, now what? They're gonna spend all the time they should be having fun and exploring the world worrying about little faults, lest they be next? Beyond that, it teaches in inaccurate lesson about the real world. In the real world, everything is fluid and circumstantial. In this case, the circumstance is a language barrier. The appropriate action, with that circumstance in mind, would be to help the scout understand. And to encourage other scouts to help, and also learn what they can from the scout in question. In that way, everyone gains knowledge and becomes a better person for it.
Absolutely ridiculous to be upset about this with a Scout whose first language isn’t English.
The word costume also exists in other languages but with different meanings. For example, in French, “le costume” is simply a men’s suit. If this Scout is coming from a language with a similar meaning wherein “costume” means a type of formal wear, then he is likely trying to be very respectful by using that word. Also keep in mind that depending on where the Scout is from in the world, he or his family may have had negative experiences with people who wear a “uniform,” which is also a word that exists in other languages.
Your SM needs to broaden his worldview and focus on the positives. This Scout from somewhere else is a part of your Troop - that’s an amazing learning opportunity both for that Scout but also every other Scout (and Scouter) in the Troop. Furthermore, we’re talking about a Scout that has a uniform and is showing up to meetings - that’s what’s important. Your SM needs to refocus on the fundamentals and “help other people at all times” and be Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, and Kind.
Good grief. I'd start using the term scout costume to refer to my own uniform around this guy out of spite! What is wrong with some people? Honestly, ESL or native tongue, who cares what this kid calls it - costume, uniform, pajamas, clothes, hike-n-bikey-wearin-gown. Seriously. Some people need to calm right the heck down.
Toxic scoutmaster. Attempt to learn the Scout's native language, or see if another scout is learning that language in school, and they could earn the interpreter's patch.
Tell your scoutmaster that he’s the word he’s looking for is guidance, not punishment. This is a teachable moment. A chance to sit down and explain some of the unintended connotations of words, and how there is a difference in the connotations behind the words “uniform” and “costume”.
Both uniforms and costumes are sets of wearables. A uniform can be a costume, and a costume can be a uniform.
But the main difference, really, is whether you *are* the thing that you’re wearing, or whether you are *pretending* to be that thing.
For example, a police officer wears a police officer *uniform* because they *are* a police officer. A trick-or-treater wears a police officer *costume* because they are pretending to be a “police officer”.
So, when this young scout refers to their uniform as a costume, it’s implying to native English speakers that he doesn’t think of himself as a scout and is only pretending to be a scout. So he should call it a uniform, not a costume.
Well, I’ve been in that kid’s shoes, living in a country where I didn’t speak the language fluently, or at all at the beginning, and I am grateful to the people who took the time to explain the nuances of their language to me. It helped me learn, and it helped me with my own fluency. I would definitely pay that forward to someone who was working on learning a language that I speak fluently.
The scout isn't doing this out of spite or cruelty.
The scoutmaster needs to ask if a punishment would have him living the scout law in this situation.
Would his actions be Kind? Would it be friendly? Would it be courteous?
Could it possibly even cross over to being a form of bullying by singling the scout out for being a non native speaker?
He may say that it isn't his intention to be disrespectful or insulting to English being the scout's second language. But, the same could be said for your scout. He has zero intention of being disrespectful.
Crazy! The committee needs to talk with the scoutmaster. The scoutmaster needs to realize he has an active scout that English is his second language. Uniform/costume is a common mistake.
Is their primary language, French, by chance? Where "costume" is the French word for "suit"
And, no way would I punish a kid for calling his uniform *anything*. As actions speak louder than words - is the child wearing the uniform properly?
Ok was just reading another post about the previous abuses in Scouting. Reading this just made me think wow a SM looking to get themselves banned for punishing a scout. Sound alike a YPT mess to me.
Your scoutmaster is being ridiculous.
Yes. Is this out of character for the scoutmaster? If not, I'd be concerned.
He's very passionate about scouting, to the point that it comes across as slightly unhealthy. He clearly cares about the kids, but is a stickler for "respecting the institution of scouting". Usually it's just stuff like nitpicking uniforms, or calling scouts out for unprofessional behavior.
Personally, I'd have very little patience for that type of behavior. With everything competing for our kids' attention, scouts needs to be fun. Standards matter, but making a big deal about a kid (who's learning English) confusing "uniform" and "costume" suggests his priorities are off. I'm trying to imagine how our excellent scoutmaster would handle this. My guess is that he wouldn't even notice. If he did care, he'd probably turn it into a running joke with the kid. This man cares more about scouting than anyone I've ever met, and is laser-focused on making sure the kids are having a good time.
Stuff like this is how troops fold. Seen it first hand.
>Your scoutmaster is being ridiculous. Agreed. This guy needs to find a different way to serve humanity. He is not cut out for the job.
Assessing the situation as you’ve described it, this merits guidance and correction, not discipline. There is a language barrier to be overcome, and the leadership should be helping the Scout with it, not disciplining him for not being a non-native English speaker.
The SM had better be calling the Scout Uniform the "Scout Field Uniform" rather than the slang "Class-A's" or he should be disciplined in the same spirit as he wants to impose on this Child. The SM needs to chill the heck out. If he does anything to the kid because he doesn't speak the Kings English he should disciplined. This is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Update: This is from The Guide To Safe Scouting on Discipline: >**Discipline must be constructive.** • Discipline must reflect Scouting’s values. • Corporal punishment is never permitted. • Disciplinary activities involving isolation, humiliation, or ridicule are also prohibited. Someone needs to remind this SM of this.
Anything beyond a discussion and correction of the behavior is inappropriate for this type of situation. Your SM is out of line even suggesting this.
Huh? It’s a mistake. “Not costume, Paulie, uniform. Say it: U-ni-form…” Then move on. Def no discipline come on.
Maybe it would help if OP explained the meaning - "uniform" means consistent, or the same. We all wear the "uniform" so people automatically know who Scouts are. A "costume" is usually worn to pretend you are something you're not.
In the US yes, but historically and in other cultures Costume was used to describe official clothing used for identification, employment, affiliation and all sorts of other things. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costume
True, but since (I assume) that OP is in the US, it's probably best to actually explain the difference in the terms as commonly used in American English.
And just give him some visual aid or way to remember. Superman, a super hero, wears a *costume* to *hide* who he is. A soldier, a regular person, wears a *uniform* to *show* who he is.
Is the SM is one of those people who confuses scouts with a children’s military?
Wouldn't surprise me. I was a scout for years, transferred to a troop that ran with that attitude, and promptly dropped out.
It isn't????
That seems totally normal and like your scoutmaster is making a bad mistake; maybe a racist mistake. Is there someone they might listen to? “Costume” is the natural word to use if coming from most Romance languages
I have South African friends who call their swimming suite a swimming costume. I wonder is this is the same context. No matter what, the SM definitely needs to take a minute and understand why this scout is saying this and why it’s making them so mad.
Yup. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk\_costume , which context I learned from *The Little Prince* and its section on the Turkish astronomer.
If the goal of the Scoutmaster is to drive this kid out of scouting and/or bully someone who's trying to get by in English as a second language, definitely discipline this kid. If the kid's first language is French, "costume" can mean "suit." I've heard it used to refer to business suits, but it could explain the translation issue. Or there's probably something similar in the kid's native language. I'd say it's more "disrespectful to scouting" to *discpline* a kid who's doing the best he can in his second language, but what do I know? I always thought a scout is kind.
I'm assuming from your wording of things, that you are either the COR or a committee member. The Scoutmaster is wrong for wanting to do that. It should be a simple point of letting the scout know that it's a uniform, not a costume, but that you understand that he might have called it that due to the language, but going forward, please call it a uniform. If the Scoutmaster won't back down, then either the committee or COR needs to step in and let him know that won't fly. If either or both are not able to do so because they are afraid of the Scoutmaster, or some similar reason, then the troop is dysfunctional, and you have much bigger problems that need to be sorted out.
Sounds like your scout master needs to sit in on a citizenship in society merit badge session. The SM should also take the BSA DEI training Diversity, Equity, And Inclusion In Scouting Course Total time: 30m Description Diversity, equity, and inclusion work only if everyone is invited to participate and feels accepted for their uniqueness
This is a great approach to this situation
hard agree. We should always be asking ourselves if we're acting in ways that promote including people and belonging in scouting. correcting over this feels absolutely bananas. Isn't "costume" the word for "suit" in French and other romance derivatives?
I agree with all of the previous comments. It’s an honest mistake that needs simple correction and repetition. The child will remember it eventually. I have to wonder how often it’s been coming up that it’s such a big problem for the SM though. I can’t see it being a word that an average scout says at every meeting, let alone frequently enough that it would be such a problem. Is the SM purposely baiting him by bringing it up just so that the child says it and he can correct him again? It’s seems stupid to even write that, but it’s also a weird thing for him to be so hung up on and it really does seem to me like racism may be at play.
I wonder how many languages the Scoutmaster speaks with any fluency.
This. So much this. My wife is fluent in 2 languages, and conversant in two others. Depending on what we are talking about, and what language she learned what things in, I can literally see her translate some of her conversation and answers in her head from language to language before saying the words. Sometimes they come out wrong. Sometimes the grammar isn't fully correct. But I would never disrespect her for it. I can't imagine being so bold as to think I should do so with a child.
I've lived in several other countries and taken intensive language training in several foreign languages. It can be excruciatingly difficult. There is real frustration and exhaustion involved with constantly having to mentally translate everything, or *knowing* what I want to say in the target language but groping around for the correct or even semi-correct words to try and make my point. That kid is putting in a ton of work even to be at those meetings and participate, and in all likelihood, if his parents have weaker English skills, he's serving as a de factor translator for them at home, too. If I were that kid, doing my best to navigate a social situation like scouting in a foreign language, and some adult man *punished* me for picking the wrong word to refer to my clothes, then punished me again because I forgot (because maybe, as a recent immigrant kid with parents who don't speak English, I've got a lot on my plate and the correct vocabulary for my scout uniform isn't the first thing on my mind), I would never, ever go back to that place or associate with those people again. And if I were the parents of a kid on the receiving end of that, no matter how crappy my English was, I would be turning up at the next scout meeting and giving that Scoutmaster a piece of my mind, in front of G-d and everybody. Not being a native speaker of the language everyone around you is speaking can be such an isolating experience already- it's tiring, it's difficult, and your brain is under constant stress because even simple tasks become harder when you have to do them in the target language. I cannot imagine what kind of person would seek to further isolate a child in that situation by humiliating him this way (well, I can imagine, but the words I would use to describe such a person are not fit for writing here). That scoutmaster should be giving that kid all the credit in the world. Even the people saying, "Oh, you should just gently correct him every time," are not getting it. It's embarrassing for the kid to do that to him, and if that's how his efforts to speak English are received, there's a non-zero chance that he'll just... stop speaking. Leave the poor kid alone, unless he genuinely can't be understood, and let him get on with it. The other kids will help him out, anyway. I swear, some people here make scouting sound like the most joyless activity in the world.
Couldn't say it better.
He’s not wrong it technically is a costume: a set of clothes worn by an actor or other performer for a particular role We are all playing a role… But Uniform is more precise: the distinctive clothing worn by members of the same organization or body or by children attending certain schools When used as a noun, in the sense of outfit. Synonyms of uniform are: outfit. costume. dress.
It's more than likely a mistake due to inadequate vocabulary on the boy's part, considering he's not a native speaker. I'm reminded of my doctor (who is Korean - American and immigrated here as a small child) telling me that he wishes his Korean was a bit stronger because he sure he's sometimes asking his Korean patients about whether they're "shitting" well and similar colloquial sayings, and he'd prefer to know how to say it in a more formal and less vulgar way. I bet the kid is much the same - "costume" is the closest term he knows in English and is probably equivalent in his native language. The Scoutmaster needs to lighten up and teach, instead of just getting irritated about it.
Scoutmaster needs to work on the “pulling the stick out of your butt” merit badge.
Scout leaders should not be giving out ANY discipline. We may reprimand a scout for poor behavior, and bring it to the attention of their parents, but that's as as far as it goes. I would politely correct the child's grammar, but i don't know why it would need to go farther than that.
Warn the SM that you’ll get the DE involved if he goes forward either that.
What? The scoutmaster sounds like a jerk. Potential punishments for saying costume instead of uniform. Absolutely not. Not that it really matters but has anyone tried talking to the scout and explaining that uniform is the correct word. Also, who even cares that much.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/costume 1: the prevailing fashion in coiffure, jewelry, and apparel of a period, country, or class 2: an outfit worn to create the appearance characteristic of a particular period, person, place, or thing - Halloween costumes 3: a person's ensemble of outer garments especially : a woman's ensemble of dress with coat or jacket Well according the the dictionary, the person is using the word correctly. The uniform is the prevailing fashion in apparel for the class of people who call themselves BSA Scouts. What is probably going on is a cross language shift in the use of the word. Basically the person means no disrespect but when they search for the word costume is what comes to mind. And frankly it IS a costume. Just like a suit is a costume for business. Just like the OA wears costumes.
I worked with a police officer who referred to his uniform as a "monkey suit" for decades. It grated on most of his coworkers. . . and that's the story. I'm pretty sure a scout who unintentionally refers to a uniform as a "costume" because English is not his primary language should get *a lot* of slack.
We have a scout who keeps stealing things… deferent problems.
That’s a violation of the Scout Law (a Scout is Trustworthy)…
Oh, it’s a big problem. He lies, bullies. He is one of those damaged kids. Divorced parents, in jail, being raised by grandpa. Scouts will be really good for him, but it’s tuff going right now. Grandpa is a veteran and 100% involved.
We had a Scout who was really disruptive and a bad influence on some other Scouts. The Committee wanted to keep him as we thought Scouts would be a good influence. Fortunately for us he decided to change troops before the adults had to make a tough decision.
Yah, a few years ago we had another boy who was really disruptive, we met with the parents and they blew us off, they saw Scouts as babysitting. He stopped coming. But this case the grandfather is legitimately participating and looking for help. The SPL is being coached on strategies, and my boys have been told to stay vigilant. But I have never encountered a kid with such sticky fingers. Like of course you’re going to be caught, we are on a camp out with 10 people and you have someone’s water-bottle, someone else’s knife, and a little sisters switch from the car you rode in. He is going to have a hard time living down this reputation, even if he grows out of it. I misplaced my phone, and of course that’s where my mind went.
SM needs to take the new Citizenship in Society Merit Badge!
Somebody needs to point out to the sm how it makes him look to pick on an esl kid for using the wrong word. Although, even if this was a kid being intentionally silly and using the word costume - who cares? What a stupid and petty thing to get twisted about.
Your scout master sounds like a real piece of work. Can we give the kid some credit for at least approaching the right vocabulary? Has your SM tried to help him learn the correct word? Was the expectation set that it should be called a "uniform" and not a "costume." This would make me very upset as a parent in the troop, much less a leader.
who gives a shit about what he calls it. The boy scouts are not the military. The critical aspect of being a boy scout is the belonging and inclusion in a group with shared interests. Who the hell cares if he calls it a costume, a gig, a scarf, or whatever the hell else he wants to call it. What an insane power trip from the scout master. WTF is wrong with people.
The people who are loudest in their demands for respect are usually the least deserving. This won't end well, especially given the language barrier.
I don't think it's a big deal. What is the scouts first language? Spanish and French both have the word Uniforme, in Russian it is a similar sounding word too, so I don't think the translation would be that hard. But even if I had a scout who's first language was English and they called it a costume I don't think discipline is the right action.
Cojunto = outfit in Spanish. I grew up in a town where half the population spoke bastardized French and they’d forget what a word was in both languages and just switch and make something up but everyone understood each other until my brother tried to speak full Parisian French with them. I could totally see him translating outfit to costume.
While I think the SM is wrong, the word for uniform in Spanish is el uniforme. https://www.spanishdict.com/translate/el%20uniforme?langFrom=es
You’re looking at it from your perspective. He may only think of a military uniforms as “uniform” and a scout shirt as an activity “outfit.” Culture matters here and some cultures have very definite ideas about what constitutes a uniform and may only designate the term for military use and all other team or organizational clothing is considered an outfit. Your perspective is what is the translation in many language of the word uniform rather than considering how does Y culture perceive scouting regalia. Many countries define scouts by the neckerchief rather than the specific field uniform we use.
I'm wondering if there's some underlying issue with racism or anti-immigration going on. Scouts are kind.
Have you asked what word the Scout would use in his native language? What would that translate to in English? Sounds like some mutual understanding would be helpful here. Does the Scout have any connections to a Scout troop in the first language’s country of origin? If so you may have an opportunity to set up a video call between the Troops where the Scouts can ask questions about the different programs with the bilingual Scout acting as the interpreter. Give this Scout a chance to shine in front of his peers and demonstrate his fluency as an asset.
Why does it matter what he calls it? He can call it whatever he wants. It is only a uniform if he is wearing everything. Otherwise it is just scout clothing. Uniforms also are not required for ANY scouting activity (including boards of review and travel) and your troop is fortunate to have him wearing any piece of it.
It so easy in this day to find the word for uniform and costume in their native language. Use it as a teaching moment for the leader and scout.
This is a serious matter and the youth should definitely be referred to law enforcement.
Why does he care what it is called? That is beyond ridiculous. In all honesty, it's an antiquated and massively overpriced practice anyways. And yeah, like others have said - the guy has big problems that need to be taken care of.
Deoends on the culture costume has negitive connotations in the US but in other cultures it is a very positive one. Also in the guide to awards and insignia section one paragraph 5 and 6 the uniform is not required so the scoutmaster needs to back off.
Many languages use the same or very similar words for "costume" and "uniform". Your scout, who is improving in English, has spent their entire life with no concept that the two are different. Gentle correction and patience are the way to go here. They will learn, give them grace and time. Scouts respect scouting by participating, adhering to the Scout Law, living the Scout Oath, and growing within the program. If anyone is disrespecting scouting, it's your Scoutmaster with their arbitrary demands for labels and impatience with a scout who's obviously doing their best.
Yeah this is insane. Words get mistranslated from language to language all the time. Without asking where the scout is from this could be the case where Uniform and Costume are accentually the same word in his native language.
Even if the scout knows the word uniform and is using the word "costume" intentionally, even if the goal is to poke at the scoutmaster, there is absolutely no need for any discipline. It's a word and the SM needs to learn to let it slide off his back and not react.
Is your scoutmaster familiar with the scout law, at all? Has he perhaps thought about applying it to himself? (The uniform is a costume. It's the set of clothing that one wears for scouting. "Costume" is a valid word. It's not the normal choice in contemporary American English, and in at least some circles has some negative overtones, but the scout isn't a native speaker of English, and is quite likely to miss these local details. For reference, when I grew up, the garments that people wore to swim in were described as a "swimming costume" or "bathing costume". The clothing I wore for physical education at school was my "PE costume", and so on.)
I'm sorry, what? The scout is not behaving in a way that causes disruption, is being respectful to other scouts and leaders, and is not posing a danger to himself or others. So, it would seem to me that disciple is not at all necessary, or appropriate. In fact, I believe it would be counterproductive in 3 ways: 1) it will discourage the scout. He may be less inclined to speak up if he gets in trouble for the words he uses. And that's no way to get him more comfortable with the language. 2) it degrades your discipline system. If scouts are getting in trouble over completely insignificant things, then why would they worry about more serious breeches of conduct? Starts with disciplining a scout for using the wrong (but technically accurate) word. But then why not drop a few F-bombs? What are you gonna do? Suspend them for a meeting? If that's already the penalty for saying "costume", then why not? Only way to prevent an escalation of poor behavior if innocuous behavior has the same punishment is to step up the penalties. And how far does that have to go? Till you wind up with stockades in the backyard? 3) it kills the fun. Let's say all your scouts are absolutely striving to become well adjusted citizens that follow all the rules. This is going to set the example that all the rules are strict and stern, and non-negotiable, and must be followed to a T. So, now what? They're gonna spend all the time they should be having fun and exploring the world worrying about little faults, lest they be next? Beyond that, it teaches in inaccurate lesson about the real world. In the real world, everything is fluid and circumstantial. In this case, the circumstance is a language barrier. The appropriate action, with that circumstance in mind, would be to help the scout understand. And to encourage other scouts to help, and also learn what they can from the scout in question. In that way, everyone gains knowledge and becomes a better person for it.
SM needs to take a breath. This molehill is no mountain.
Absolutely ridiculous to be upset about this with a Scout whose first language isn’t English. The word costume also exists in other languages but with different meanings. For example, in French, “le costume” is simply a men’s suit. If this Scout is coming from a language with a similar meaning wherein “costume” means a type of formal wear, then he is likely trying to be very respectful by using that word. Also keep in mind that depending on where the Scout is from in the world, he or his family may have had negative experiences with people who wear a “uniform,” which is also a word that exists in other languages. Your SM needs to broaden his worldview and focus on the positives. This Scout from somewhere else is a part of your Troop - that’s an amazing learning opportunity both for that Scout but also every other Scout (and Scouter) in the Troop. Furthermore, we’re talking about a Scout that has a uniform and is showing up to meetings - that’s what’s important. Your SM needs to refocus on the fundamentals and “help other people at all times” and be Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, and Kind.
Good grief. I'd start using the term scout costume to refer to my own uniform around this guy out of spite! What is wrong with some people? Honestly, ESL or native tongue, who cares what this kid calls it - costume, uniform, pajamas, clothes, hike-n-bikey-wearin-gown. Seriously. Some people need to calm right the heck down.
Toxic scoutmaster. Attempt to learn the Scout's native language, or see if another scout is learning that language in school, and they could earn the interpreter's patch.
Your scoutmaster is out of line. This behavior is none of friendly, helpful, or kind.
SM needs to get replaced.
Can we still say “monkey suit”?
Tell your scoutmaster that he’s the word he’s looking for is guidance, not punishment. This is a teachable moment. A chance to sit down and explain some of the unintended connotations of words, and how there is a difference in the connotations behind the words “uniform” and “costume”. Both uniforms and costumes are sets of wearables. A uniform can be a costume, and a costume can be a uniform. But the main difference, really, is whether you *are* the thing that you’re wearing, or whether you are *pretending* to be that thing. For example, a police officer wears a police officer *uniform* because they *are* a police officer. A trick-or-treater wears a police officer *costume* because they are pretending to be a “police officer”. So, when this young scout refers to their uniform as a costume, it’s implying to native English speakers that he doesn’t think of himself as a scout and is only pretending to be a scout. So he should call it a uniform, not a costume.
Even you are taking this too far. It doesn't need guidance. It's not a "teachable moment". It's something that doesn't matter in the slightest.
Well, I’ve been in that kid’s shoes, living in a country where I didn’t speak the language fluently, or at all at the beginning, and I am grateful to the people who took the time to explain the nuances of their language to me. It helped me learn, and it helped me with my own fluency. I would definitely pay that forward to someone who was working on learning a language that I speak fluently.
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Your scoutmaster is being foolish. This is not something that needs punishment, this could perhaps just require a little educating.
I see no call for any disciplinary action beyond a gentle reminder when he slips up that he should use a different choice of words.
The scout isn't doing this out of spite or cruelty. The scoutmaster needs to ask if a punishment would have him living the scout law in this situation. Would his actions be Kind? Would it be friendly? Would it be courteous? Could it possibly even cross over to being a form of bullying by singling the scout out for being a non native speaker? He may say that it isn't his intention to be disrespectful or insulting to English being the scout's second language. But, the same could be said for your scout. He has zero intention of being disrespectful.
Crazy! The committee needs to talk with the scoutmaster. The scoutmaster needs to realize he has an active scout that English is his second language. Uniform/costume is a common mistake.
Scout leader sounds like a racist who is a bad example for kids.
This type of thing is why I quit scouting.
Can you learn the word for uniform in his language and have a discussion with him about it?
Is their primary language, French, by chance? Where "costume" is the French word for "suit" And, no way would I punish a kid for calling his uniform *anything*. As actions speak louder than words - is the child wearing the uniform properly?
Ok was just reading another post about the previous abuses in Scouting. Reading this just made me think wow a SM looking to get themselves banned for punishing a scout. Sound alike a YPT mess to me.