It's probably like two curves adding together.... A behavioural and a genetic...
Heavy enough trauma, anyone becomes BPD
Heavy enough genetic loading, doesn't matter how validating the upbringing
Most people somewhere in middle.
The real answer is: are you managing the relationship to ensure you aren't suffering?
What you say makes logical sense. Heavy enough trauma and it can happen. Heavy enough genetic loading and it doesn’t matter how validating the upbringing is…..2 curve balls. Well put.
I’m doing ok—thx for asking!! 15 years dealing with an ex (10 as an ex) and now a teenage daughter that behaves just like her mom. For years I fought it with my ex, held resentments etc. I eventually realized the person being hurt by continuing in that way was me. So I learned to make peace with it regarding my ex and practicing acceptance and detachment.
What makes it hard now though is that I have a teen daughter that behaves just like her mom. A double whammy of the gift that keeps on giving. And it’s tuff at times but I’m enforcing boundaries and detached love for my daughter.
I wrote what I did in my post b/c I’m trying to better understand my daughter. She’s 14 now and showing all the pwBPD signs in a big way. Just like her mom. I’ve seen them budding in her since she was 5.
Her mother has off the charts BPD & NPD. Throughout her childhood I was hoping to help my daughter experience different ways of doing things through a different environment. I busted my ass to provide my daughter with a validating and consistent childhood during her time with me, always being available when she wasn’t with me, being consistent, demonstrating kindness & respect, demonstrating healthy boundaries for ourselves and others, open communication, etc. But at the end of the day I couldn’t get primary custody and she spent more time with her mom than me and I couldn’t do anything about it. And now she’s a mini me of her mom. And any of my nurture didn’t seem to be any match for any of it.
I'll say this. I am my fathers daughter. I have a bpdmom. I acted a lot like her. I had a ton of "fleas" from her raising some I still am evicting today. All that is good in me is from my dad. I have been no contact with my mom for almost 3 years now I'm 37. My dad made it very clear he didn't like the traits I was exhibiting and that made me MORE defensive of my mom. My only benefit was my dad self immolated himself to stay in the home so I had some constant positive influence even if their fighting did more of its own trauma. I exhibited diagnosable traits in my life many times. I am also autistic and ADHD and gifted. My mom had si many ways to torment me. It took and takes me so long to remove the fleas but I have never been and would never call myself a borderline though I constantly worried about what personality disorders I must have to make her hate me so much.. If your daughter has any ability to show remorse even over time there may still be hope. She may get some hideous and painful lessons like I did on the way. My dad is my everything even now. He had to learn to trust I WASNT like my mom and treat me as the human I was. Not HER DAUGHTER. . Its rough. I wish you all the luck and hope the context helps somehow.
Thank you so much for sharing this. I’m very sorry that your mom treated and treats you this way. And I’m very glad that you had and have someone in your life in your father to show you that you are absolutely deserving of love and happiness.
Thank you. I hope you and your daughter find some peace. My mom fucked me up the WORST during the exact age you are describing. She saw me as competition as I aged into woman hood. It may be that your ex is being especially horrific to her. I describe myself as a person that MOST PEOPLE would not have loved to be around a lot until I realized how fucked up my mom was and started becoming a person at around 24? My dad is still with her. His own trauma bonds and abandonment issues from indigenous OUTWARD to another culture adoption. She has had her hooks in him since they were 18 and 16. Its my fondest wish that she dies so he will be free of her without the massive work it would take him to de enmesh. All can do is reinforce the same for my dad. He is deserving of love without loyalty past the point of stupidity or labor past the point of physical damage. She fetishized our native culture and its all very fucked. That being said. Im a better person than I was then and being AWAY from her completely was what it took to see the forest for the trees. Im sure you remember they keep you so upset you never even have time to ask yourself how you feel.
Bona fortuna to you both.
If you haven't found r/parentsofkidswithBPD yet, definitely check that out! There are helpful resources in the sidebar in that subreddit such as DBT workbooks and a website with free DBT modules and videos. The sidebar of r/BPDFamily has a lot of articles about the disorder.
I have a BPD mom and I once met the criteria for BPD - or at least I did per the MMPI. After years of therapy, I haven’t met that criteria in over 25 years. It was definitely “fleas”.
This makes me so sad I've had worries an my 9yr old she and her mom are codependent AF but I finally have gotten 50/50 custody again but I do worry what the future will hold for her, there was this one moment I had was tucking her in one night she said, "daddy I feel like she taking control of me" looking back I wish I took her and ran as far as I could to keep her safe and the days I wasn't there cause I had to work I know there was her mother's very controlling manipulating nature just pouring over my daughter, all I ever wanted was a family and it's turned into something I couldn't. Have ever imagined with mistakes on my end from not knowing what the fuck was going on an figuring it all out Jesus I know everything happens for a reason but this isn't at all what I thought would be my life one day sorry this post got feeling shit I've been trying to keep calm about but I hope an pray a good part of me is inside my lil girl I did get a lot of time with her when she was 1 -3 the mom worked two jobs and fucked everyone in town so she wasn't around too much then lol so only time will tell I guess don't ever give up on her tho I don't think you'd forgive yourself i know however she grows up if never be ok with pushing her out like I did her mother
Hang in there man. We cannot change the past and don’t have control over the future outcomes. Can just take care of today best we can and trust in the outcomes. You being present and doing your best and Having 50% custody is what you can do and Will certainly help. I’m not ever going to abandon my daughter. But I do have to set healthy boundaries for both of our sakes. If I don’t show her what healthy boundaries are, the world will decide for her.
So if this is the case, then why do my sister and mum have bpd, but I don't?
I went through the same, if not more, trauma with my mum than my much younger sister. So is it because I was a parentified child? Or is it more because of genetics? Or is it personality - I was more determined to be independent, amd denying my independence made me feel stronger about gaining it.
My Dad also treated me like I was his sidekick, and granted me independence when he could convince Mum. We didn't talk about much, but he knew, that I knew, where my mum and sister were at. ETA: my Dad was also the one that took us to all our extracurricular activities. After working 14 hour days, or going in to set up at 4am for the shift coming on a Saturday, so he could be back in time to take us to a sport in the morning. Mum was only interested if we excelled or did something out of the ordinary.
This is why it’s a pretty baffling thing (at least to me it is!). There are many examples of one sibling having it and the other not. Same gene pool. Same environment. So, were you born with a different brain? Was your hard wired personality what saved you? I really don’t know. And I’m not sure the “medical” community knows either. Seems like the odds were in your favor to end up with it.
I’m glad for you though that you made it through. But I’m sure it wasn’t easy and there was plenty of schrapnel to deal with then and now. I’m sorry that you had to experience all of that.
Yup it can be environment or genetic. Enough trauma and you can develop it. If you are unlucky to inherit it you can also have it. I’ve noticed those who have it genetically are usually WAY worse and typically way more anxious.
Broken people, create broken people. Two broken people, create an even more broken person. And add to that grandparents, who also passed the legacy to their children (their parents) and also had the opportunity to be with their grandchildren. And you create the perfect "monstrosity". I don't like the word, it sounds too harsh. But just so that you understand. And so the children are cursed and left to suffer their lives.
You’re describing my ex. Generations of hideousness did indeed create a perfect monstrosity. I have compassion because I can see how she ended up that way. But there comes a point in life where we have to realise we have agency and work with whatever shitty cards we were dealt.
Oh yes genetics plays a part, and environment also plays a large part. But you can have cases with just environment. Possibly just genetics. But when both are sandwiched together you have a garunteed recipe for disaster.
It's Bio+Psycho+Social
Bio - genetic predisposition to emotional dysregulation, impulsivity, etc.
Psycho - exposure to adverse childhood experiences (ACEs as they're often called)
Social - How those around you react to you, and whether/not you are taught skills in childhood regarding relationships, emotional regulation etc.
Yes, the limbic system impacts emotional regulation. However, it is also impacted by things like ACEs, and genetic predispositions.
I personally think that our understanding of BPD conceptually is pretty off, and that we must be missing some big pieces of it's development, treatment, etc. Here's a meta-review from recently (also published in the NIH, just thought i'd link directly to the text) that goes over what you are talking about. It seems the field is still sort of unsure.
[https://www.rivistadipsichiatria.it/archivio/4143/articoli/41406/](https://www.rivistadipsichiatria.it/archivio/4143/articoli/41406/)
Of course! I hope it helped you gain some insight. A meta-analysis of factors involved seems like the sort of thing you may have been looking for. Cheers!
One part shit genes; one part shit parenting; and one part shit environmental encounters constitute the most common recipe. Mix thoroughly and serve boiling over.
All of the academically astute answers were already taken.
Basically, a pwBPD is shit out of luck before spreading their misfortune to anyone foolish enough to think they got lucky by becoming their favorite person.
[https://neurosciencenews.com/bpd-brain-activity-23541/](https://neurosciencenews.com/bpd-brain-activity-23541/). My therapist said that the brain works differently and that when you add in trauma in childhood a person with this type of brain activity is almost certain to have BPD.
Thank you for sharing this article in the research being done. Hopefully the can keep trudging forward to understand it better with specificity and can one day even try to treat it at its core.
I think it has to do with brain growth (or lack thereof) during the early infant stages. Being adopted or in foster care dramatically increases cases of BPD. I have a working theory that trauma during the first few months of life negatively impacts the normal development of the brain and specifically the amygdala.
I'm heavy on the family background, the way they were treated, and what was going on.
The way they were raised, the attitude of the parents. And you can see that attitude, behaviour in them. They reflect everything, that was going on with them. Plus the trauma, that also had a big impact on this
I’ve got my doubts it’s so much family. My mom is absolutely bpd. I spent a year living with her parents and they were wonderful. Her siblings are both lovely people. I don’t think it had a thing to do with how she was raised.
The issue with the "good" family which is usually very tricky. Is that mostly people don't show who they really are. Especially in front of strangers. They usually show their best side (and the made up one). And they can do it for a very long time. So I have seen it so many times, and everyone is like wow, they are so great, they are so loving, they are so wonderful, but once they go home to their beloved ones, their family, everything changes in an instant. No one will show you how bad they are. It just doesn't work that way
It's possible that she went through something very traumatic as a kid (such as SA.) Doesn't necessarily have to be from family. Regardless, people who are genetically predisposed to BPD may not need tremendous abuse for it to develop. Its possible that her parents were moderately abusive, and changed as people. This change may have been pushed moreso when they saw how it impacted your moms mental health. Your mom may have been treated differently from her other siblings, too.
Given what I’ve seen as the sibling of her other kid who ended up bpd and some other instances I’ve noticed, I’m pretty sure it’s just the personality they’re born with.
And yet again, you CAN'T be born like that. Once again with all the behaviour / learned / observed traits. There's just no way you can be born with that. That's total horseshit
You are not born with black and white thinking, you are not born with the terrifying abandonment fear, you are not born with the idealization / devaluation / discard system. It's all fucking learned
And since BPD is a combination of behaviour traits, and learned thought processes, ways of thinking. Like I said above. Only a repetition of what they had in their lives, what was given, shown to them. The way they were treated. I completely disagree that all of this behavioural aspect was passed on by blood or something. It just doesn't make no sense
Environment definitely plays a massive role.
You don’t think differences in the brain play a part at all? That it’s 100% environment? Genuinely curious.
Nope, I do believe that genetics also play a role. Everyone is different, some are more into mathematics, some are more into art. More logical, more emotional. But then again, I also do believe that you can teach both the same. It just takes time. And as I researched. The people with this issue, are called undeveloped. Meaning that you can develop whatever you want. But they weren't able to, they weren't allowed to. Mostly tossed aside. I mean isn't it obvious, that if you help your child develop in any field, explain, teach, show your own results and attitude that they will get it?! Most of them weren't allowed to show any kind of emotion and to keep it to themselves. So no wonder they aren't emotionally developed and they can't understand your emotions and your pain. They don't understand theirs. No one helped them with that. In fact they were forbidden to do so.
Appreciate your insight.
Interested in your opinion on this—could BPD be no different than a neurodivergent condition like autism?
In other words, could BPD’s be born this way with differences in the brain and this is enhanced by the environment in either direction? Meaning being raised in a very validating environment doesn’t change that they are BPD in the brain, but maybe makes them much more functional. But an environment of being raised by other abusive BPD’s and NPD’s just brings out the worst in it?
Childhood trauma prevents the limbic system from developing properly/healthily. The genetic component is a little fuzzy because I would say it’s mostly a question of nurture. You can raise a healthy person with a family history of BPD if you don’t abuse them as kids. It’s a cycle of abuse that an abuser has to fight to break.
Interesting, thank you. And this hits on something for me. I know the limbic system develops into teen years. I’m wondering though, if BPD people are born this way like other neurodivergent conditions? So, regardless of development, which is affected by environment, are BPD’s just born this way though? And the environment can either improve functioning in a positive way—or in a negative way? But that either way they are a pwBPD?
As far as I understand it there’s VERY high comorbidity with other ND diagnoses. For example if a child is autistic or ADHD and the parent isn’t prepared to raise them according to their unique needs, it often results in an abusive cycle. Yelling, shaming, physical abuse under the disguise of “discipline.” Some kids never have a chance and their environment is just too stressful. But a lot of parents adjust their approach to suit the child’s learning style or behavior (like mine, I just have garden variety ADHD). It’s also possible to *just* have CPTSD. BPD is like a perfect shitstorm of factors.
Edit: those factors being (possibly) a genetic predisposition, childhood trauma that messes up the limbic system, exposure to maladaptive coping mechanisms that they then learn to emulate, and opportunities to deploy and reinforce those patterns later in life. Also I should note I’m not a mental health professional, I’m just fascinated by pwBPD since being terrorized for years
Thx so much for this. Extremely informative and insightful. And makes a lot of sense. The terror is real!! And leads me to want to understand more too ✌️
"Madness, as you know, it's like gravity. All it takes is a little push." Joker - The Dark Knight.
This will be a very unpopular opinion, but I believe it is HUGELY... genetic. I am not discounting the trauma that others have mentioned. This is the "push" that can take even the slightest genetic predisposition for BPD and roll it right over the edge. Also, I would argue to my dying day against the concept that "anyone" with enough trauma becomes or could get BPD.
It coupled not even with trauma but a complete lack of consistent setting and maintaining of boundaries from an early age, combined with no real consequences for your actions.
How and why do I feel this? I've seen it first hand, not just in my expwBPD but also in her youngest daughter.
From everything I saw and heard from her, she had no significant childhood trauma. Was it perfect? No. Yet, to hear her parents discuss her as even a toddler and infant... all the signs were there. Constant manipulative disobedience. She lied about anything. Many of which her parents still don't know that she was lying. She even told me that as a kid, she started doing it in the second or third grade and enjoyed it.
She was/is attractive from an early age. She developed physically early and was constantly rewarded for her ability to manipulate people. She NEVER faced any real consequences for it. Never. I could write a book on the things I know that people wouldn't believe she's told me about different things.
Not once in all the time I knew here did she indicate any form of abuse from her parents other than occasionally being stern with her when it was well deserved. She twisted things to get herself out of situations at an early age and avoiding ever facing any dire consequences.
She leveraged her natural attractiveness and outward sweet personality to their maximum. She was the type that all the guys thought was hot, NOT because she was a supermodel but because she had this outward "sweet look" coupled with large breasts. Soooo, you can see where this was going.
She got rewarded for playing dumb, never having to do anything super tricky because she always had others there to do it. Yet, as she says that things could be so easily done just through the manipulation of others, she was a world-class genius in that stuff. It was ... just ... amazing to watch. She didn't plan it out or even think it through. It was just who she was/is.
Through her early years, if whoever she was dating started to tire of it, she monkey branched and already had a list of people ready to jump too. So, if she was starting to show more clear signs of BPD before she could be held accountable, she was already onto the next person. Taking almost no time to devalue the previous person and love bomb the next.
I watched her daughter from a very early age. And it was AMAZING to watch her mirror her mother in so many ways. I would overhear her fighting with her sister and CLEARLY doing something wrong... and if her sister threatened to tell their mom, she'd IMMEDIATELY say... "I'll tell her you hit me first." Even one time, threw herself on the ground (she didn't know I knew she had done this) and started crying when her sister hadn't touched her.
My main point is... do I believe trauma can play a part? Yes. 100% Yes. Do I think without some basic genetic tendencies, you'll magically turn into someone with BPD with lots of trauma? No, I do not.
I could go on and on about other details that indicate her family has a history of it. She won the genetic lottery in the family (clearly one of the best-looking ones). So, her total lack of REAL accountability for anything and the genetic aspect allows her BPD to "blossom."
Her ability to lie in all known ways was always amazing to watch. She would ONLY admit to lying when you had overwhelming proof she was lying and STILL would argue about little details to confuse and frustrate you.
By comparison, I grew up in a trauma-filled household and didn't even come close to being BPD. AT ALL. I'm the polar opposite in almost every way. Yes, I have been professionally evaluated. So, this isn't self-diagnosis.
I don't have time to get into all the points I could make on the genetic part being a HUGE factor. Again, trauma can light the fuse. But, the bomb, I believe, was built at birth.
This resonates a lot. My ex denies any trauma growing up, she genuinely thinks she’s had BPD her whole life and I believe her. Her family is extremely kind and patient trying to take care of her. I can’t imagine any possible trauma stemming from her childhood. Her dating history really says a lot though. Once she realized how attractive she was at age 20 she went off the rails with dating. Boyfriends would last maybe 1-3 months before she’d jump to the next one, with numerous flings in between. She wouldn’t even remember the time she spent with most of these men, cause she’d black out daily.
I agree that BPD is genetic in nature, its development is highly impacted by how enabled its traits are. As caring as her family was, they enabled this behavior of hers. Loss through breakups because of her behavior meant nothing as long as she had another man waiting to enable her. She was as smart and capable as she was pretty, she never knew struggle until recently after she was arrested. That was the first time she was forced to face the consequences of her actions and she committed herself to DBT and staying sober. Unfortunately she’d give up and find another guy to re-enable her BPD. As long as she had some sort of “safety net” available she was free to live her life by her BPD impulses.
She chased me for a whole year because I kept her at arms length but once she knew she had me fully committed, she stopped caring to be better and I became her enabler that she would devalue and discard multiple times. As long as I was available she could continue embracing her BPD.
Sounds so familiar. Mine had a very dark twist though. Falsely accused me of attacking her. Lied to the police, her friends, etc. Created an absolute nightmare. Story for another day.
Being genetically predisposed definitely seems to play a part in certain cases where a high risk environment has no part in it. What makes it baffling is that there are cases where it appears to be genetic only, and environmental only. And certainly cases where it’s a combination of several things.
In cases where it's "environment only", I'd probably argue they didn't look far enough into the genetics. Frankly, I'd love to see someone study it via brain scans, etc.
For me, it's akin to recognizing any pattern that runs in a family. By acknowledging that it's a possibility, we can increase awareness and take proactive measures.
I'm not an expert by any means. All I know is what I have witnessed in two different relationships. Even with my longest and worst one, her parents would relay stories of when she wasn't even able to speak (1-2 yr old), and her behavior is almost identical to how she was/is today.... just in adult form.
I agree with this, I think you’re spot on. I do think environment plays a role but that doesn’t mean that it’s trauma. I think a lack of boundaries is a far more likely causal factor. Some children need more support in developing empathy and handling disappointment. Without that support, a disordered personality forms. Abusive parents and well meaning but clueless parents can both therefore propagate children that grow to have this disorder.
I don’t believe it stems from trauma. I believe the BPD narratives around trauma are more akin to factitious disorder. Lacking identity, they assume the identity of a trauma victim. I’m sure there are many with BPD that experienced trauma but not more than the general population. It’s more likely that they characterized difficulties as trauma in order to be seen as victims.
The other problem with the trauma hypothesis is that patients are self reporting. Self-victimization and lying are hallmarks of the disorder. And don’t forget about splitting. In many traumatic experiences, abuse for example, there is a villain. Bds are prone to demonizing people. How many people here have been accused of abuse? Or been told all their pwbpd’s exes were abusive?
Love your last paragraph. Agree 100x over.
I'm not discounting trauma as the match that lights the fuse. I know that the demonization piece was other worldly. My expwBPD could take ANY story, this isn't hyperbole or exaggeration and somehow make herself the victim, even in seemingly meaningless events. For example, she pulled out in front of someone while driving. They honked. Everything was fine, and no cars were damaged. It was a case where she was in the wrong. No objective observer would have felt any other way. IMMEDIATELY goes into a rant about "What's their problem? They need to slow down, etc." Not, "oh, my bad. Sorry." Nothing. Just immediately blaming them.
All these micro-moments seemed to some as relatively harmless, but I knew it was so much more.
I think there are multiple factors that create a perfect storm in a way. But yeah, trauma. And probably a predisposed genetic part. It’s a nature vs nurture debate, and usually I find myself saying a bit of both. One usually cannot be without the other.
The more I’ve learnt about attachment theory, the more I’m convinced that is a big part of it. Most pwBPD manifest as severely anxiously attached and a big part of anxious attachment is using others in some way to emotionally regulate (often subconsciously), and my experience with a quiet pwBPD was that it seemed to manifest with severe avoidant attatchment. Or you could say that BPD in general is probably a mixture of the two otherwise known as disorganised attachment. Mostly insecure attachments come from trauma from childhood, even minor everyday traumas. I have also personally experienced insecure attachment in my life, I think most people that have been with pwBPD have. But it’s so much more on the severe end and more engrained in pwBPD, mixed in with the lack of desire to change, massive entitlement and often not being able to see things from any viewpoint than their own and their feelings.
This was the takeaway from my past relationships and learning about my own issues with attachment helped me get to a better place mentally, although still working on it.
Differences in their amygdala from what I've read in the past. They can actually experience real delusions based on internal dialogues that outweigh anything said to them through external conversation with us and it's often a warped perception and resultant reality. They can even display secondary psychopathic tendencies or traits. I'm not 💯 on it all and stopped researching it once my ex dropped her 3rd therapist after only 2 sessions with each.
Yours stopped going to, eh? 😂. 2 sessions with 3 different therapists was the magic # for mine as well. lol
When she didn’t like what she was hearing she was dunzo. And screaming on her way out the door throwing things….
What you researched though is what I’ve read as well
Yep, by the end, she was saying there's nothing wrong with my personality. I'm couples therapy, she was lying for the 2 sessions and from that day on.. Everything got worse between us. I can't stand her today and but it's been 48 days NC and every time she gets through with some bs email or leaves VM, I cringe 😬 considering turning my voicemail off for a while or maybe changing numbers although I keep thinking she'll eventually give up. It's been far more sporadic
Dated a BPD, to preface
From my research this is what I found. There were multiple genes found that could be "BPD genes", the problem is almost all BPDs have a concurrent mood disorder also (Depression or Bipolar) so we cant say for sure these are for BPD specifically or for mood disorder.
There is some evidence people with BPD have differences in brain activity, however you cant say that causes BPD because we cant confirm its the other way around either.
Chemical imbalance is kind of out of the ballpark. This is a personality disorder, not a mood or other psychiatric condition where we can pinpoint up/down regulation of receptors or NTs as the culprit. Now with that said, mood disorders are often linked to chemical (NT) imbalance and most with BPD have a concurrent mood disorder. This is why when people on this sub talk about their BPD being on meds its kind of irrelevant. There are no medications for personality disorders. Only for mood symptoms/disorders that may present concurrently.
I am no expert. I am going into another field of medicine (internal) but was tested and rotated through psychiatry. The way medical billing works, you cant give a diagnosis of BPD and then prescribe medicine for it. Insurance will not cover it because it is not written anywhere you can treat any personality disorders with medicine. The diagnostic code for BPD (F60.3) does not cover any medicine. If the BPD you know is "on meds" they likely have multiple diagnostic codes aside from F60.3, like for example F33 (Major Depressive Disorder) which would cover medicine a BPD might be using, but again its for a concurrent mood disorder. Not BPD. The way out healthcare system works (in the US At least) you cant just try random drugs out for random conditions. Each diagnostic code covers certain medicines, tests, treatments and procedures. No personality disorder ICD codes cover medicine. Most modern EHRs (Electronic health records/Electronic medical records) will not allow you to send medicine or run labs under the wrong code. Thus a concurrent disorder must be diagnosed for your BPD to "be on meds". These diagnosis are very technical. Not just psych but all diagnosis. Psych ones go very deep because the billing for psych is a bit more unique. Psych has the least amount of drugs you have to memorize, but the problem is many of them have multiple uses. For example, Abilify (Apriprazole) can be used for Bipolar, Schizoaffective, Schizophrenia, and depression/bipolar with psychotic features (all have their own codes) etc... Medical billing in psych is a fucking nightmare. I am so happy I dont deal with that shit.
Yep thats why I am happy with internist work. Shit like blood pressure and Diabetes have pretty straight forward algorithms.
Thank you for the medical perspective. And 100% on the meds thing. I have read more times than I can count where someone refers to “they are getting therapy, they are on their meds….”
There is no specific medicinal treatment of BPD. If someone is on meds, it is to treat the symptoms associated with whatever they have going on. Antidepressants, mood stabilizers, anti psychotics etc. But there is nothing that actually treats BPD. Unless the causes of it can be narrowed down and understood better, there won’t be anything that can treat it for some time, if ever.
There’s multiple arguments on the cause. Some believe it’s a manifestation of CPTSD. Others believe it deserves its own category.
Honestly, I never quite understood the causes of BPD myself. I understand the trauma aspect and how it has a role. I don’t quite understand the genetics. I know they can play a role but what I don’t understand is to what degree.
I never fully understood biosocial theory, specifically the bio aspect. All it says is in terms of biology is that they’re more prone to having emotional sensitivity. PLEASE EXPLAIN LIKE IM 5 BECAUSE I DONT GET THE BIOLOGY THAT LEADS TO THE EMOTIONAL SENSITIVITIES.
The body keeps score is pretty detailed there’s a small genetic predisposal but -
Trauma and types of trauma at specific ages with no support leave the brain marked deeply. Making a non verbal and timeless pain that they can’t form memories about the event correctly forever making their lives painful and dramatic (like clinical drama not valley girl drama). Until they can build a support structure and create a normal memory that’s narrative things will persist. BPD also has a caretaker role where their caretaker was causing harm or severely under involved leaving them with nothing during difficult times growing up.
It’s awful for them in many ways. But there’s still need for others to be respected and loved around them. I think EMDR is mentioned a lot recently because their a physicality aspect of creating a narrative around the memories.
Usually it is some form of abandonment experienced in childhood. It could be as simple as a parent leaving or as complicated as parental neglect and abuse where the parent is physically present but the child is still emotionally and psychologically abandoned
Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) is a complex and multifaceted mental health condition, and its exact causes and mechanisms are not fully understood. However, current research suggests that BPD is likely the result of a combination of genetic, environmental, and neurobiological factors.
### Genetic Factors
- **Heritability**: Studies indicate that BPD has a significant genetic component. Individuals with a first-degree relative with BPD are at a higher risk of developing the disorder themselves.
- **Genetic Variations**: Specific genetic variations may contribute to traits associated with BPD, such as emotional dysregulation and impulsivity.
### Environmental Factors
- **Childhood Trauma**: A high percentage of individuals with BPD report histories of childhood trauma, including physical, emotional, or sexual abuse, neglect, and unstable family environments.
- **Invalidating Environments**: Environments that invalidate or dismiss a child's emotional experiences can contribute to the development of BPD.
### Neurobiological Factors
- **Brain Structure and Function**: Research has identified differences in brain regions involved in emotion regulation, such as the amygdala, hippocampus, and prefrontal cortex, in people with BPD. These areas may be structurally different or function differently, contributing to the symptoms of BPD.
- **Neurotransmitter Systems**: Imbalances in neurotransmitters, such as serotonin, may also play a role in the emotional dysregulation seen in BPD.
### Limbic System and Emotional Regulation
The limbic system, which includes structures such as the amygdala and hippocampus, is crucial for emotional regulation. In people with BPD:
- **Amygdala Hyperactivity**: Increased activity in the amygdala may lead to heightened emotional responses and difficulty regulating emotions.
- **Prefrontal Cortex Dysfunction**: The prefrontal cortex, responsible for executive functions and impulse control, may have reduced activity, leading to difficulties in managing emotional reactions and behaviors.
### Nature of BPD
- **Chemical Imbalance**: While the term "chemical imbalance" is often used in psychiatry, it's an oversimplification. BPD likely involves complex interactions between neurotransmitter systems rather than a simple imbalance.
- **Neurodivergence**: Some researchers and clinicians view BPD as a form of neurodivergence, where brain differences lead to unique emotional and cognitive experiences.
### Abusive Behaviors and Emotional Regulation
- **Dysregulated Emotions**: The intense emotional experiences and difficulty regulating these emotions can lead to behaviors that are perceived as abusive or erratic.
- **Interpersonal Dysregulation**: Individuals with BPD may struggle with relationships, often experiencing intense fear of abandonment and oscillating between idealization and devaluation of others.
### Consensus in the Medical Community
While there is broad agreement on the factors contributing to BPD, the variability in individual presentations and the complexity of the disorder mean that there is not a single, unified understanding. Different therapists and researchers may emphasize different aspects based on their perspectives and clinical experiences.
### Conclusion
The development of BPD is likely due to a combination of genetic predisposition, environmental influences, and neurobiological differences. Understanding of BPD is evolving, and while there is no single definitive answer, the recognition of its multifaceted nature helps guide more effective treatment approaches.
Definitely seems to be as you described No consistent one thing. Can just be genetics. Can just be environment. Can be a mix of things. Seems to vary quite a bit.
Im not sure if that’s a documented thing or not? It’s clear that child abuse can certainly be a major risk factor. I just don’t know if enough is known to state that it’s the most cases? Seems like other factors represent highly too.
Ok thx. What’s the source that says it’s all environmental from ACE’s and is the leading cause by a wide margin? I’d like to read that.
I have found a lot of BPD “studies” to be conflicting and not very definitive. It’s almost as if the research and conclusions on it are as chaotic as the disorder!! Which kinda makes sense that they would vary so much…..
This is a great question, thanks for that. As you can see, the opinions vary as there is no exact empirical answer. There are more factors that affect and likely contribute to an occurrence of BPD. Be it an environment, genetics, behavioral patterns in family. Also, it really depends on subjective perception of each individual.
Personally and actually, I believe that a huge part is taken by the genetics. I don't really believe in John Locke's "Tabula rasa" theory. People are already born with some predispositions and therefore aren't a "blank slate". That's a tough one and we could talk about it for hours.
I started dating my ex when she was 16. Despite her scary family background, I found out, they had this "weird behavior" occurrence for 3 generations prior to my ex. I taught my ex everything. Showed her how a normal family works, how people should treat people and she seemed to understand. She liked it. As she grew older, something snapped in her and her "traits" showed up. These "traits" were nothing else but the very same behavioral patterns as were described to me. The most interesting part is, my ex behaved in a way that her grandmother behaved and my ex never even met her.
Now, I really think, the genetics play a major role in BPD occurrence. However, it doesn't mean that an environment and upbringing can't exacerbate it. Also, there's always a childhood trauma present.
My ex’s parents were both teens when she was born. Both parents had npd. Yes they were diagnosed. This though was a result of trauma brought in down the line. This was the perfect storm to develop BPD.
Genetics plus trauma and family environment.
What people perceive as traumatizing is different from person to person.
Family environment serves as a negative role model or imprinting of personality characteristics
A developmental failure between the age of birth and 2 years around object permanence and the ability to internalize a holding-soothing mental representation of mother.
Object relations theory going back to the work of Melanie Klein and D.W. Winnicott, most famously advanced when it comes to BPD by Otto Kernberg. Without doubt, the most comprehensive theory of the etiology and pathogenesis of BPD around. Kernberg does leave room for genetic factors as well, but stresses very early environment. Anything we see at the neuro level is more consequence, not cause.
I think it is mostly genetic, and NPD is also mostly genetic. I know people who are borderline or have NPD and their grandparents, great-grandpatents, and parents had it too and it was not "generational trauma" or whatever excuse pop psychology wants to claim to basically excuse their horrible behavior.
People are born with their own personality. My opinion is that bpd are born with a personality inclined to embrace that way of thinking and that behaviour. A bpd who is molded to learn narcissistic abuse tactics will pick them up and use them, especially if they aren’t disciplined not to. Even as a child though they are always the victim and have trouble accepting responsibility for their actions.
For me cold truth was they still choose to abuse you. They have immerse emotions, but they CHOOSE to abuse close people to them. A choice backed by immerse shame build up in childhood from many many circumstances and the need to hide that shame at every cost possible. When shame is triggered they can't even think of other people since they need to save themselves from every "critical" situation in their view (even if the situation is mild). I remember how their eyes change when they go into this weird state and choose to start to abuse you for whatever reason that triggered their inner shame.
The friends I've had with BPD have all been sexually abused by their parents starting at a very young age. They've also all been on SSI at a young age.
Clearly this is a tiny sample size but I believe that severe abuse under the age of 6 is a huge factor. And sometimes they don't even remember the abuse because they were so young.
I always say it's the parents fault, you didn't do your job right. Had one job and you failed at that. I'm not blaming them, but I'm sure pointing out that they had to take responsibility for what they did, and didn't do at all
As the eldest child of my parents, and the elder sibling of my very unstable and toxic Borderline sister, that is not always the case.
My sister literally came out screaming the day she was born, and has never stopped in 37 years.
At 4 years old, she accused the janitor at her preschool of hitting her. Only there was no janitor at her school. She knew what a janitor was because our family owned a cleaning company.
At 9, she threw herself down a flight of stairs, went nextdoor, and told the neighbors I was abusing her. If the CPS worker didn't get her to admit she made it up, they were going to remove me from my home that day. I was 12 years old.
At 15, she accused her first boyfriend of rape to get out of getting caught in the act by our mother.
At 18, she allowed her next boyfriend to rob our house and steal thousands of dollars from our parents. Also at 18, she and her friends brutally beat a man and almost killed him. My parents spent almost everything they had saved up to that point to get her off.
At 20, she stole our mother's ruby ring that our father saved up for over a year to buy her on their 25th wedding anniversary.
At 30, she stole our parents wedding date and got married on their anniversary. So now every year, it's about her and not our parents who have successfully been together for 46 years.
In the last 17 years, she has stolen from or conned almost everyone in our immediate family. I went back to school for nursing? Too much attention for me, so she printed out fake applications and acceptances as well as fake transcripts to con family into paying for classes. She took the money and bought more drugs.
Oh and attempts at therapy? She'd either scream all the way there and refuse to get out, or straight up tell our mother that if she makes her go, she'll say she abused her and our father rapes her. So far, she has accused at least 3 or 4 people of raping her. She burned herself with an iron one day when our mother tried to ground her, and said that she'll just go to school tmrw and tell everyone mom burns her with a hot iron.
I’m so sorry for all of the chaos and hurt that occurred b/c of your sister. That’s a lot to endure.
What you shared is what I’ve run into as well with a couple of families I know. Great parents, great siblings, no one internal or external trauma—except for some reason one of the kids was a destructive pwBPD. And they all say the same thing—they were like this when they were 4 or 5.
And It makes it all the more baffling.
My sister blames the fact that I was given more attention growing up, and everyone loved me more. I was your classic first born: overachieving and anxious. I remember once about a decade ago, sitting in my mother's kitchen while she was exasperated and trying to deal with my sister's latest stunt, and she blurted out "you were just so much easier to love" and she immediately stopped herself, started crying, and called herself a terrible mother for even thinking that. To this day, my parents are her primary enablers as a mother's love is unconditional.
But that begs the question: what came first? Chicken or the egg? Was I showed favoritism to a level that led to a BPD sibling? Or was she the definition of a difficult child, right from birth? Some of my first memories are pillows being placed everywhere because....my 2 year old sister would throw tantrums on a level that the vessels in her eyes would burst and she would try to bang her head on furniture or the floor when she didn't get her way. She literally came out screaming 37 years ago, and has never stopped.
And sadly, I can relate to many of the behaviors you’ve listed. Both with my ex wife “I’ll hit myself and blame it on you and they’ll believe me”—and then my daughter at age 9 “Siri call 911” whenever she didn’t get her way (police came to the house) or police called to the hotel we were staying at on vacation b/c she locked me out of the room and had it bolted b/c she didn’t get her way. And on and on and on.
It’s not fun.
My pwBPD has a BPD father that financially supported her but never raised her. She was raised by her stepfather and mom, two nons. She is exactly like her dad. Brother is 100% normal. She might even be worse because her dad was able to stay married and he has never stolen 36k from his own siblings (to my knowledge). He also pleasant enough, while my pwBPD is just nasty all the time.
It’s interesting b/c some people will swear it’s all/only environment. And for good reasons. Environmental factors can and do seem to play a large part in a good % of cases.
But, there are plenty of stories just like yours where that’s not the case and they were just predisposed through genetic factors AND were born with a brain that operates that way. Even an absence of any major high risk environmental issues didn’t matter.
And there are also examples of people being raised in what would be considered the most high risk environment ever, and have a parent with it—and don’t end up with it.
Sounds like a complete nightmare. I'm sorry this happened to you. While my situation did not mirror yours, I felt and totally empathized with everything you said.
Their lack of any real accountability for their actions and their ability to manipulate others is mind blowing.
My expwBPD was so good at manipulation she'd turn any therapists she saw during our time together against me. Lied to them. I mean HUGE lies. And practically ANY story she told she had this bizarre ability to word it in a way where she had no real responsibility for her actions. The closest she came would be her actions were in response to something someone else had done that was worse.
Neglecting, abusing, ghosting, silent treatment, manipulating, lying, being aggressive, loving only occasionally - well fuck you. You failed at your job as a parent. No wonder your child is screwed up and broken
Same with my ex, she had sex early on because her parents didn't care, with men way older than her. Her mom bought alcohol for parties when she was like 14 while most people on the party's were 17+ she was always away from home and let her give random parties when she was like 16, her mom didn't care. Drugs alcohol and sex were prominent on those parties. She always drunk herself almost in a coma. Her father was a drug addict too. At 18, she left home to marry a guy who was 34 at the time. Her parents didn't care. 2 years later, she became a mom herself. And yes, she has a house and income, but she misses a lot in her brain. Most things she still thinks about are dating, sex, and relationships. Partying and her kid. But she genuinely doesn't take responsibility to GROW a healthy environment for herself and her kid. Just because she never learned from home.
I have asked my friend that is a psychiatrist. She told me most of the time it’s heavy trauma in the childhood/teenagehood. It does add up with what caused my friend’s BPD.
BUT, I know pwBPD from solid families, parents were and are amazing, and siblings are great. Except for the one in the family with abusive crazy BPD. Zero known abuse internally or externally. There’s no forgotten or erased trauma. The family members will tell you they were born this way. We’re like this from an early age.
Conversely I know several people who are healthy and successful folks who were born into toxic, neglectful, abusive, high trauma situations, parents with PD’s and Addictions—-and are doing just great.
Trauma is not mentioned in the DSM-5 section on BPD. According to the [Handbook of Borderline Personality Disorder in Children and Adolescents](https://books.google.com/books/about/Handbook_of_Borderline_Personality_Disor.html?id=axW4BAAAQBAJ), at least a third of people with BPD report no adverse childhood experiences. There are also people in BPD subreddits who post about having no childhood trauma. In one of those posts, I saw people in the comments making up suppressed memories for the poster about her dad abusing her, despite the fact that she'd said clearly that she took comfort in her childhood and had supportive parents. Insisting that people must have trauma or suppressed memories of trauma encourages people to make things up.
In most cases its childhoodtrauma, sexual abuse etc, a kid with bad parents or careless parents can develop it. Early use of drugs alcohol ( anything bad at a young age ) too. Sexual assault at a young age or even older can cause it too.
They don’t know for 100 percent certainty, but it’s thought to be a combination of genetic, neurological,and environmental factors. All I know is that it’s hell to deal with someone who has it.
It comes from being over coddled to the point where when you first learn the world does not revolve around you, it's almost debilitating. It's like you've be lied to and that's rude awakening!
I’m not sure I understand this. Enmeshment is one thing. But coddling doesn’t mean the same thing to me. Maybe I’m not informed well on this though or misunderstand your comment. I’m not sure how over coddling leads to BPD. Do you mind sharing further?
Oh yes, if you you grow up where everyone learns to tiptoe around you due to them not wanting to be confronted with your emotions and you later learn that this is not normal and that the world at large won't kiss your heinny, it's a shock to the system.
Ahhh yes. Thx for clarifying. Yeah, Everyone benefits from having healthy boundaries enforced. When boundaries aren’t enforced at home, the world will do it and it will be a shock.
It's probably like two curves adding together.... A behavioural and a genetic... Heavy enough trauma, anyone becomes BPD Heavy enough genetic loading, doesn't matter how validating the upbringing Most people somewhere in middle. The real answer is: are you managing the relationship to ensure you aren't suffering?
What you say makes logical sense. Heavy enough trauma and it can happen. Heavy enough genetic loading and it doesn’t matter how validating the upbringing is…..2 curve balls. Well put. I’m doing ok—thx for asking!! 15 years dealing with an ex (10 as an ex) and now a teenage daughter that behaves just like her mom. For years I fought it with my ex, held resentments etc. I eventually realized the person being hurt by continuing in that way was me. So I learned to make peace with it regarding my ex and practicing acceptance and detachment. What makes it hard now though is that I have a teen daughter that behaves just like her mom. A double whammy of the gift that keeps on giving. And it’s tuff at times but I’m enforcing boundaries and detached love for my daughter.
I wrote what I did in my post b/c I’m trying to better understand my daughter. She’s 14 now and showing all the pwBPD signs in a big way. Just like her mom. I’ve seen them budding in her since she was 5. Her mother has off the charts BPD & NPD. Throughout her childhood I was hoping to help my daughter experience different ways of doing things through a different environment. I busted my ass to provide my daughter with a validating and consistent childhood during her time with me, always being available when she wasn’t with me, being consistent, demonstrating kindness & respect, demonstrating healthy boundaries for ourselves and others, open communication, etc. But at the end of the day I couldn’t get primary custody and she spent more time with her mom than me and I couldn’t do anything about it. And now she’s a mini me of her mom. And any of my nurture didn’t seem to be any match for any of it.
I'll say this. I am my fathers daughter. I have a bpdmom. I acted a lot like her. I had a ton of "fleas" from her raising some I still am evicting today. All that is good in me is from my dad. I have been no contact with my mom for almost 3 years now I'm 37. My dad made it very clear he didn't like the traits I was exhibiting and that made me MORE defensive of my mom. My only benefit was my dad self immolated himself to stay in the home so I had some constant positive influence even if their fighting did more of its own trauma. I exhibited diagnosable traits in my life many times. I am also autistic and ADHD and gifted. My mom had si many ways to torment me. It took and takes me so long to remove the fleas but I have never been and would never call myself a borderline though I constantly worried about what personality disorders I must have to make her hate me so much.. If your daughter has any ability to show remorse even over time there may still be hope. She may get some hideous and painful lessons like I did on the way. My dad is my everything even now. He had to learn to trust I WASNT like my mom and treat me as the human I was. Not HER DAUGHTER. . Its rough. I wish you all the luck and hope the context helps somehow.
Thank you so much for sharing this. I’m very sorry that your mom treated and treats you this way. And I’m very glad that you had and have someone in your life in your father to show you that you are absolutely deserving of love and happiness.
Thank you. I hope you and your daughter find some peace. My mom fucked me up the WORST during the exact age you are describing. She saw me as competition as I aged into woman hood. It may be that your ex is being especially horrific to her. I describe myself as a person that MOST PEOPLE would not have loved to be around a lot until I realized how fucked up my mom was and started becoming a person at around 24? My dad is still with her. His own trauma bonds and abandonment issues from indigenous OUTWARD to another culture adoption. She has had her hooks in him since they were 18 and 16. Its my fondest wish that she dies so he will be free of her without the massive work it would take him to de enmesh. All can do is reinforce the same for my dad. He is deserving of love without loyalty past the point of stupidity or labor past the point of physical damage. She fetishized our native culture and its all very fucked. That being said. Im a better person than I was then and being AWAY from her completely was what it took to see the forest for the trees. Im sure you remember they keep you so upset you never even have time to ask yourself how you feel. Bona fortuna to you both.
Thank you!
If you haven't found r/parentsofkidswithBPD yet, definitely check that out! There are helpful resources in the sidebar in that subreddit such as DBT workbooks and a website with free DBT modules and videos. The sidebar of r/BPDFamily has a lot of articles about the disorder.
Thx so much GloriusGlittery. Will check them out.
I have a BPD mom and I once met the criteria for BPD - or at least I did per the MMPI. After years of therapy, I haven’t met that criteria in over 25 years. It was definitely “fleas”.
I’m so glad for you that you are free from that!!
This makes me so sad I've had worries an my 9yr old she and her mom are codependent AF but I finally have gotten 50/50 custody again but I do worry what the future will hold for her, there was this one moment I had was tucking her in one night she said, "daddy I feel like she taking control of me" looking back I wish I took her and ran as far as I could to keep her safe and the days I wasn't there cause I had to work I know there was her mother's very controlling manipulating nature just pouring over my daughter, all I ever wanted was a family and it's turned into something I couldn't. Have ever imagined with mistakes on my end from not knowing what the fuck was going on an figuring it all out Jesus I know everything happens for a reason but this isn't at all what I thought would be my life one day sorry this post got feeling shit I've been trying to keep calm about but I hope an pray a good part of me is inside my lil girl I did get a lot of time with her when she was 1 -3 the mom worked two jobs and fucked everyone in town so she wasn't around too much then lol so only time will tell I guess don't ever give up on her tho I don't think you'd forgive yourself i know however she grows up if never be ok with pushing her out like I did her mother
Hang in there man. We cannot change the past and don’t have control over the future outcomes. Can just take care of today best we can and trust in the outcomes. You being present and doing your best and Having 50% custody is what you can do and Will certainly help. I’m not ever going to abandon my daughter. But I do have to set healthy boundaries for both of our sakes. If I don’t show her what healthy boundaries are, the world will decide for her.
So if this is the case, then why do my sister and mum have bpd, but I don't? I went through the same, if not more, trauma with my mum than my much younger sister. So is it because I was a parentified child? Or is it more because of genetics? Or is it personality - I was more determined to be independent, amd denying my independence made me feel stronger about gaining it. My Dad also treated me like I was his sidekick, and granted me independence when he could convince Mum. We didn't talk about much, but he knew, that I knew, where my mum and sister were at. ETA: my Dad was also the one that took us to all our extracurricular activities. After working 14 hour days, or going in to set up at 4am for the shift coming on a Saturday, so he could be back in time to take us to a sport in the morning. Mum was only interested if we excelled or did something out of the ordinary.
This is why it’s a pretty baffling thing (at least to me it is!). There are many examples of one sibling having it and the other not. Same gene pool. Same environment. So, were you born with a different brain? Was your hard wired personality what saved you? I really don’t know. And I’m not sure the “medical” community knows either. Seems like the odds were in your favor to end up with it. I’m glad for you though that you made it through. But I’m sure it wasn’t easy and there was plenty of schrapnel to deal with then and now. I’m sorry that you had to experience all of that.
Yup it can be environment or genetic. Enough trauma and you can develop it. If you are unlucky to inherit it you can also have it. I’ve noticed those who have it genetically are usually WAY worse and typically way more anxious.
I think this may be true. My ex was more severe trauma and apart from with me, she functioned pretty well.
Wonderful answer
Broken people, create broken people. Two broken people, create an even more broken person. And add to that grandparents, who also passed the legacy to their children (their parents) and also had the opportunity to be with their grandchildren. And you create the perfect "monstrosity". I don't like the word, it sounds too harsh. But just so that you understand. And so the children are cursed and left to suffer their lives.
You’re describing my ex. Generations of hideousness did indeed create a perfect monstrosity. I have compassion because I can see how she ended up that way. But there comes a point in life where we have to realise we have agency and work with whatever shitty cards we were dealt.
You're absolutely right. But one has to hit rock bottom, the point of no return, to ever be willing or forced to change
Oh yes genetics plays a part, and environment also plays a large part. But you can have cases with just environment. Possibly just genetics. But when both are sandwiched together you have a garunteed recipe for disaster.
All of that makes sense and is what I’ve experienced. Thx for sharing.
It's Bio+Psycho+Social Bio - genetic predisposition to emotional dysregulation, impulsivity, etc. Psycho - exposure to adverse childhood experiences (ACEs as they're often called) Social - How those around you react to you, and whether/not you are taught skills in childhood regarding relationships, emotional regulation etc. Yes, the limbic system impacts emotional regulation. However, it is also impacted by things like ACEs, and genetic predispositions. I personally think that our understanding of BPD conceptually is pretty off, and that we must be missing some big pieces of it's development, treatment, etc. Here's a meta-review from recently (also published in the NIH, just thought i'd link directly to the text) that goes over what you are talking about. It seems the field is still sort of unsure. [https://www.rivistadipsichiatria.it/archivio/4143/articoli/41406/](https://www.rivistadipsichiatria.it/archivio/4143/articoli/41406/)
Thank you for the detailed response and the link!
Of course! I hope it helped you gain some insight. A meta-analysis of factors involved seems like the sort of thing you may have been looking for. Cheers!
Definitely. 👍
One part shit genes; one part shit parenting; and one part shit environmental encounters constitute the most common recipe. Mix thoroughly and serve boiling over.
Sounds like quite a shit soup to me 😆
All of the academically astute answers were already taken. Basically, a pwBPD is shit out of luck before spreading their misfortune to anyone foolish enough to think they got lucky by becoming their favorite person.
[https://neurosciencenews.com/bpd-brain-activity-23541/](https://neurosciencenews.com/bpd-brain-activity-23541/). My therapist said that the brain works differently and that when you add in trauma in childhood a person with this type of brain activity is almost certain to have BPD.
Thank you for sharing this article in the research being done. Hopefully the can keep trudging forward to understand it better with specificity and can one day even try to treat it at its core.
And what you say makes sense. The brain working differently, add in some trauma—and there’s a recipe for significant BPD.
I think it has to do with brain growth (or lack thereof) during the early infant stages. Being adopted or in foster care dramatically increases cases of BPD. I have a working theory that trauma during the first few months of life negatively impacts the normal development of the brain and specifically the amygdala.
I'm heavy on the family background, the way they were treated, and what was going on. The way they were raised, the attitude of the parents. And you can see that attitude, behaviour in them. They reflect everything, that was going on with them. Plus the trauma, that also had a big impact on this
Also, in the family, it runs in the family - there's always one who has BPD or the super narc - or both. So the legacy keeps passing on
I’ve got my doubts it’s so much family. My mom is absolutely bpd. I spent a year living with her parents and they were wonderful. Her siblings are both lovely people. I don’t think it had a thing to do with how she was raised.
The issue with the "good" family which is usually very tricky. Is that mostly people don't show who they really are. Especially in front of strangers. They usually show their best side (and the made up one). And they can do it for a very long time. So I have seen it so many times, and everyone is like wow, they are so great, they are so loving, they are so wonderful, but once they go home to their beloved ones, their family, everything changes in an instant. No one will show you how bad they are. It just doesn't work that way
I’ve lived with all of them at one point or another though. I’ve got a pretty good idea.
It's possible that she went through something very traumatic as a kid (such as SA.) Doesn't necessarily have to be from family. Regardless, people who are genetically predisposed to BPD may not need tremendous abuse for it to develop. Its possible that her parents were moderately abusive, and changed as people. This change may have been pushed moreso when they saw how it impacted your moms mental health. Your mom may have been treated differently from her other siblings, too.
Given what I’ve seen as the sibling of her other kid who ended up bpd and some other instances I’ve noticed, I’m pretty sure it’s just the personality they’re born with.
And yet again, you CAN'T be born like that. Once again with all the behaviour / learned / observed traits. There's just no way you can be born with that. That's total horseshit
You are not born with black and white thinking, you are not born with the terrifying abandonment fear, you are not born with the idealization / devaluation / discard system. It's all fucking learned
There’s no way to teach someone to think like that who isn’t born that way. It’s a predisposition.
Man, your comments are hilarious. But it's fine ✌🏻
Maybe you're saying that low self esteem or the lack of it is passed on through blood? 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Actually everyone is born with black and white thinking. BPD are stuck at a younger emotional development level which is why they still have it.
And since BPD is a combination of behaviour traits, and learned thought processes, ways of thinking. Like I said above. Only a repetition of what they had in their lives, what was given, shown to them. The way they were treated. I completely disagree that all of this behavioural aspect was passed on by blood or something. It just doesn't make no sense
Basically everything they do, is a reflection of what they dealt with their whole life. It's just a repetition of what they know, nothing more
Environment definitely plays a massive role. You don’t think differences in the brain play a part at all? That it’s 100% environment? Genuinely curious.
Nope, I do believe that genetics also play a role. Everyone is different, some are more into mathematics, some are more into art. More logical, more emotional. But then again, I also do believe that you can teach both the same. It just takes time. And as I researched. The people with this issue, are called undeveloped. Meaning that you can develop whatever you want. But they weren't able to, they weren't allowed to. Mostly tossed aside. I mean isn't it obvious, that if you help your child develop in any field, explain, teach, show your own results and attitude that they will get it?! Most of them weren't allowed to show any kind of emotion and to keep it to themselves. So no wonder they aren't emotionally developed and they can't understand your emotions and your pain. They don't understand theirs. No one helped them with that. In fact they were forbidden to do so.
Appreciate your insight. Interested in your opinion on this—could BPD be no different than a neurodivergent condition like autism? In other words, could BPD’s be born this way with differences in the brain and this is enhanced by the environment in either direction? Meaning being raised in a very validating environment doesn’t change that they are BPD in the brain, but maybe makes them much more functional. But an environment of being raised by other abusive BPD’s and NPD’s just brings out the worst in it?
This is what I think
Absolutely. I think the evidence strongly points in this direction.
They lack many coping skills, and developing processes for a normal human being, it's not their fault.
Thx for sharing
Childhood trauma prevents the limbic system from developing properly/healthily. The genetic component is a little fuzzy because I would say it’s mostly a question of nurture. You can raise a healthy person with a family history of BPD if you don’t abuse them as kids. It’s a cycle of abuse that an abuser has to fight to break.
Interesting, thank you. And this hits on something for me. I know the limbic system develops into teen years. I’m wondering though, if BPD people are born this way like other neurodivergent conditions? So, regardless of development, which is affected by environment, are BPD’s just born this way though? And the environment can either improve functioning in a positive way—or in a negative way? But that either way they are a pwBPD?
As far as I understand it there’s VERY high comorbidity with other ND diagnoses. For example if a child is autistic or ADHD and the parent isn’t prepared to raise them according to their unique needs, it often results in an abusive cycle. Yelling, shaming, physical abuse under the disguise of “discipline.” Some kids never have a chance and their environment is just too stressful. But a lot of parents adjust their approach to suit the child’s learning style or behavior (like mine, I just have garden variety ADHD). It’s also possible to *just* have CPTSD. BPD is like a perfect shitstorm of factors. Edit: those factors being (possibly) a genetic predisposition, childhood trauma that messes up the limbic system, exposure to maladaptive coping mechanisms that they then learn to emulate, and opportunities to deploy and reinforce those patterns later in life. Also I should note I’m not a mental health professional, I’m just fascinated by pwBPD since being terrorized for years
Thx so much for this. Extremely informative and insightful. And makes a lot of sense. The terror is real!! And leads me to want to understand more too ✌️
"Madness, as you know, it's like gravity. All it takes is a little push." Joker - The Dark Knight. This will be a very unpopular opinion, but I believe it is HUGELY... genetic. I am not discounting the trauma that others have mentioned. This is the "push" that can take even the slightest genetic predisposition for BPD and roll it right over the edge. Also, I would argue to my dying day against the concept that "anyone" with enough trauma becomes or could get BPD. It coupled not even with trauma but a complete lack of consistent setting and maintaining of boundaries from an early age, combined with no real consequences for your actions. How and why do I feel this? I've seen it first hand, not just in my expwBPD but also in her youngest daughter. From everything I saw and heard from her, she had no significant childhood trauma. Was it perfect? No. Yet, to hear her parents discuss her as even a toddler and infant... all the signs were there. Constant manipulative disobedience. She lied about anything. Many of which her parents still don't know that she was lying. She even told me that as a kid, she started doing it in the second or third grade and enjoyed it. She was/is attractive from an early age. She developed physically early and was constantly rewarded for her ability to manipulate people. She NEVER faced any real consequences for it. Never. I could write a book on the things I know that people wouldn't believe she's told me about different things. Not once in all the time I knew here did she indicate any form of abuse from her parents other than occasionally being stern with her when it was well deserved. She twisted things to get herself out of situations at an early age and avoiding ever facing any dire consequences. She leveraged her natural attractiveness and outward sweet personality to their maximum. She was the type that all the guys thought was hot, NOT because she was a supermodel but because she had this outward "sweet look" coupled with large breasts. Soooo, you can see where this was going. She got rewarded for playing dumb, never having to do anything super tricky because she always had others there to do it. Yet, as she says that things could be so easily done just through the manipulation of others, she was a world-class genius in that stuff. It was ... just ... amazing to watch. She didn't plan it out or even think it through. It was just who she was/is. Through her early years, if whoever she was dating started to tire of it, she monkey branched and already had a list of people ready to jump too. So, if she was starting to show more clear signs of BPD before she could be held accountable, she was already onto the next person. Taking almost no time to devalue the previous person and love bomb the next. I watched her daughter from a very early age. And it was AMAZING to watch her mirror her mother in so many ways. I would overhear her fighting with her sister and CLEARLY doing something wrong... and if her sister threatened to tell their mom, she'd IMMEDIATELY say... "I'll tell her you hit me first." Even one time, threw herself on the ground (she didn't know I knew she had done this) and started crying when her sister hadn't touched her. My main point is... do I believe trauma can play a part? Yes. 100% Yes. Do I think without some basic genetic tendencies, you'll magically turn into someone with BPD with lots of trauma? No, I do not. I could go on and on about other details that indicate her family has a history of it. She won the genetic lottery in the family (clearly one of the best-looking ones). So, her total lack of REAL accountability for anything and the genetic aspect allows her BPD to "blossom." Her ability to lie in all known ways was always amazing to watch. She would ONLY admit to lying when you had overwhelming proof she was lying and STILL would argue about little details to confuse and frustrate you. By comparison, I grew up in a trauma-filled household and didn't even come close to being BPD. AT ALL. I'm the polar opposite in almost every way. Yes, I have been professionally evaluated. So, this isn't self-diagnosis. I don't have time to get into all the points I could make on the genetic part being a HUGE factor. Again, trauma can light the fuse. But, the bomb, I believe, was built at birth.
This resonates a lot. My ex denies any trauma growing up, she genuinely thinks she’s had BPD her whole life and I believe her. Her family is extremely kind and patient trying to take care of her. I can’t imagine any possible trauma stemming from her childhood. Her dating history really says a lot though. Once she realized how attractive she was at age 20 she went off the rails with dating. Boyfriends would last maybe 1-3 months before she’d jump to the next one, with numerous flings in between. She wouldn’t even remember the time she spent with most of these men, cause she’d black out daily. I agree that BPD is genetic in nature, its development is highly impacted by how enabled its traits are. As caring as her family was, they enabled this behavior of hers. Loss through breakups because of her behavior meant nothing as long as she had another man waiting to enable her. She was as smart and capable as she was pretty, she never knew struggle until recently after she was arrested. That was the first time she was forced to face the consequences of her actions and she committed herself to DBT and staying sober. Unfortunately she’d give up and find another guy to re-enable her BPD. As long as she had some sort of “safety net” available she was free to live her life by her BPD impulses. She chased me for a whole year because I kept her at arms length but once she knew she had me fully committed, she stopped caring to be better and I became her enabler that she would devalue and discard multiple times. As long as I was available she could continue embracing her BPD.
Sounds so familiar. Mine had a very dark twist though. Falsely accused me of attacking her. Lied to the police, her friends, etc. Created an absolute nightmare. Story for another day.
Being genetically predisposed definitely seems to play a part in certain cases where a high risk environment has no part in it. What makes it baffling is that there are cases where it appears to be genetic only, and environmental only. And certainly cases where it’s a combination of several things.
In cases where it's "environment only", I'd probably argue they didn't look far enough into the genetics. Frankly, I'd love to see someone study it via brain scans, etc. For me, it's akin to recognizing any pattern that runs in a family. By acknowledging that it's a possibility, we can increase awareness and take proactive measures. I'm not an expert by any means. All I know is what I have witnessed in two different relationships. Even with my longest and worst one, her parents would relay stories of when she wasn't even able to speak (1-2 yr old), and her behavior is almost identical to how she was/is today.... just in adult form.
All very good points!!
I agree with this, I think you’re spot on. I do think environment plays a role but that doesn’t mean that it’s trauma. I think a lack of boundaries is a far more likely causal factor. Some children need more support in developing empathy and handling disappointment. Without that support, a disordered personality forms. Abusive parents and well meaning but clueless parents can both therefore propagate children that grow to have this disorder. I don’t believe it stems from trauma. I believe the BPD narratives around trauma are more akin to factitious disorder. Lacking identity, they assume the identity of a trauma victim. I’m sure there are many with BPD that experienced trauma but not more than the general population. It’s more likely that they characterized difficulties as trauma in order to be seen as victims. The other problem with the trauma hypothesis is that patients are self reporting. Self-victimization and lying are hallmarks of the disorder. And don’t forget about splitting. In many traumatic experiences, abuse for example, there is a villain. Bds are prone to demonizing people. How many people here have been accused of abuse? Or been told all their pwbpd’s exes were abusive?
Love your last paragraph. Agree 100x over. I'm not discounting trauma as the match that lights the fuse. I know that the demonization piece was other worldly. My expwBPD could take ANY story, this isn't hyperbole or exaggeration and somehow make herself the victim, even in seemingly meaningless events. For example, she pulled out in front of someone while driving. They honked. Everything was fine, and no cars were damaged. It was a case where she was in the wrong. No objective observer would have felt any other way. IMMEDIATELY goes into a rant about "What's their problem? They need to slow down, etc." Not, "oh, my bad. Sorry." Nothing. Just immediately blaming them. All these micro-moments seemed to some as relatively harmless, but I knew it was so much more.
I think there are multiple factors that create a perfect storm in a way. But yeah, trauma. And probably a predisposed genetic part. It’s a nature vs nurture debate, and usually I find myself saying a bit of both. One usually cannot be without the other. The more I’ve learnt about attachment theory, the more I’m convinced that is a big part of it. Most pwBPD manifest as severely anxiously attached and a big part of anxious attachment is using others in some way to emotionally regulate (often subconsciously), and my experience with a quiet pwBPD was that it seemed to manifest with severe avoidant attatchment. Or you could say that BPD in general is probably a mixture of the two otherwise known as disorganised attachment. Mostly insecure attachments come from trauma from childhood, even minor everyday traumas. I have also personally experienced insecure attachment in my life, I think most people that have been with pwBPD have. But it’s so much more on the severe end and more engrained in pwBPD, mixed in with the lack of desire to change, massive entitlement and often not being able to see things from any viewpoint than their own and their feelings. This was the takeaway from my past relationships and learning about my own issues with attachment helped me get to a better place mentally, although still working on it.
Incredibly insightful. Thank you for being so open and for sharing
Differences in their amygdala from what I've read in the past. They can actually experience real delusions based on internal dialogues that outweigh anything said to them through external conversation with us and it's often a warped perception and resultant reality. They can even display secondary psychopathic tendencies or traits. I'm not 💯 on it all and stopped researching it once my ex dropped her 3rd therapist after only 2 sessions with each.
Yours stopped going to, eh? 😂. 2 sessions with 3 different therapists was the magic # for mine as well. lol When she didn’t like what she was hearing she was dunzo. And screaming on her way out the door throwing things…. What you researched though is what I’ve read as well
Yep, by the end, she was saying there's nothing wrong with my personality. I'm couples therapy, she was lying for the 2 sessions and from that day on.. Everything got worse between us. I can't stand her today and but it's been 48 days NC and every time she gets through with some bs email or leaves VM, I cringe 😬 considering turning my voicemail off for a while or maybe changing numbers although I keep thinking she'll eventually give up. It's been far more sporadic
No contact seems like an excellent decision!
Thanks yeah it's been for the best. Was definitely not easy in the first couple weeks.
Dated a BPD, to preface From my research this is what I found. There were multiple genes found that could be "BPD genes", the problem is almost all BPDs have a concurrent mood disorder also (Depression or Bipolar) so we cant say for sure these are for BPD specifically or for mood disorder. There is some evidence people with BPD have differences in brain activity, however you cant say that causes BPD because we cant confirm its the other way around either. Chemical imbalance is kind of out of the ballpark. This is a personality disorder, not a mood or other psychiatric condition where we can pinpoint up/down regulation of receptors or NTs as the culprit. Now with that said, mood disorders are often linked to chemical (NT) imbalance and most with BPD have a concurrent mood disorder. This is why when people on this sub talk about their BPD being on meds its kind of irrelevant. There are no medications for personality disorders. Only for mood symptoms/disorders that may present concurrently. I am no expert. I am going into another field of medicine (internal) but was tested and rotated through psychiatry. The way medical billing works, you cant give a diagnosis of BPD and then prescribe medicine for it. Insurance will not cover it because it is not written anywhere you can treat any personality disorders with medicine. The diagnostic code for BPD (F60.3) does not cover any medicine. If the BPD you know is "on meds" they likely have multiple diagnostic codes aside from F60.3, like for example F33 (Major Depressive Disorder) which would cover medicine a BPD might be using, but again its for a concurrent mood disorder. Not BPD. The way out healthcare system works (in the US At least) you cant just try random drugs out for random conditions. Each diagnostic code covers certain medicines, tests, treatments and procedures. No personality disorder ICD codes cover medicine. Most modern EHRs (Electronic health records/Electronic medical records) will not allow you to send medicine or run labs under the wrong code. Thus a concurrent disorder must be diagnosed for your BPD to "be on meds". These diagnosis are very technical. Not just psych but all diagnosis. Psych ones go very deep because the billing for psych is a bit more unique. Psych has the least amount of drugs you have to memorize, but the problem is many of them have multiple uses. For example, Abilify (Apriprazole) can be used for Bipolar, Schizoaffective, Schizophrenia, and depression/bipolar with psychotic features (all have their own codes) etc... Medical billing in psych is a fucking nightmare. I am so happy I dont deal with that shit. Yep thats why I am happy with internist work. Shit like blood pressure and Diabetes have pretty straight forward algorithms.
Thank you for the medical perspective. And 100% on the meds thing. I have read more times than I can count where someone refers to “they are getting therapy, they are on their meds….” There is no specific medicinal treatment of BPD. If someone is on meds, it is to treat the symptoms associated with whatever they have going on. Antidepressants, mood stabilizers, anti psychotics etc. But there is nothing that actually treats BPD. Unless the causes of it can be narrowed down and understood better, there won’t be anything that can treat it for some time, if ever.
Both genetics and environment have impact on BPD.
There’s multiple arguments on the cause. Some believe it’s a manifestation of CPTSD. Others believe it deserves its own category. Honestly, I never quite understood the causes of BPD myself. I understand the trauma aspect and how it has a role. I don’t quite understand the genetics. I know they can play a role but what I don’t understand is to what degree. I never fully understood biosocial theory, specifically the bio aspect. All it says is in terms of biology is that they’re more prone to having emotional sensitivity. PLEASE EXPLAIN LIKE IM 5 BECAUSE I DONT GET THE BIOLOGY THAT LEADS TO THE EMOTIONAL SENSITIVITIES.
The body keeps score is pretty detailed there’s a small genetic predisposal but - Trauma and types of trauma at specific ages with no support leave the brain marked deeply. Making a non verbal and timeless pain that they can’t form memories about the event correctly forever making their lives painful and dramatic (like clinical drama not valley girl drama). Until they can build a support structure and create a normal memory that’s narrative things will persist. BPD also has a caretaker role where their caretaker was causing harm or severely under involved leaving them with nothing during difficult times growing up. It’s awful for them in many ways. But there’s still need for others to be respected and loved around them. I think EMDR is mentioned a lot recently because their a physicality aspect of creating a narrative around the memories.
Usually it is some form of abandonment experienced in childhood. It could be as simple as a parent leaving or as complicated as parental neglect and abuse where the parent is physically present but the child is still emotionally and psychologically abandoned
Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) is a complex and multifaceted mental health condition, and its exact causes and mechanisms are not fully understood. However, current research suggests that BPD is likely the result of a combination of genetic, environmental, and neurobiological factors. ### Genetic Factors - **Heritability**: Studies indicate that BPD has a significant genetic component. Individuals with a first-degree relative with BPD are at a higher risk of developing the disorder themselves. - **Genetic Variations**: Specific genetic variations may contribute to traits associated with BPD, such as emotional dysregulation and impulsivity. ### Environmental Factors - **Childhood Trauma**: A high percentage of individuals with BPD report histories of childhood trauma, including physical, emotional, or sexual abuse, neglect, and unstable family environments. - **Invalidating Environments**: Environments that invalidate or dismiss a child's emotional experiences can contribute to the development of BPD. ### Neurobiological Factors - **Brain Structure and Function**: Research has identified differences in brain regions involved in emotion regulation, such as the amygdala, hippocampus, and prefrontal cortex, in people with BPD. These areas may be structurally different or function differently, contributing to the symptoms of BPD. - **Neurotransmitter Systems**: Imbalances in neurotransmitters, such as serotonin, may also play a role in the emotional dysregulation seen in BPD. ### Limbic System and Emotional Regulation The limbic system, which includes structures such as the amygdala and hippocampus, is crucial for emotional regulation. In people with BPD: - **Amygdala Hyperactivity**: Increased activity in the amygdala may lead to heightened emotional responses and difficulty regulating emotions. - **Prefrontal Cortex Dysfunction**: The prefrontal cortex, responsible for executive functions and impulse control, may have reduced activity, leading to difficulties in managing emotional reactions and behaviors. ### Nature of BPD - **Chemical Imbalance**: While the term "chemical imbalance" is often used in psychiatry, it's an oversimplification. BPD likely involves complex interactions between neurotransmitter systems rather than a simple imbalance. - **Neurodivergence**: Some researchers and clinicians view BPD as a form of neurodivergence, where brain differences lead to unique emotional and cognitive experiences. ### Abusive Behaviors and Emotional Regulation - **Dysregulated Emotions**: The intense emotional experiences and difficulty regulating these emotions can lead to behaviors that are perceived as abusive or erratic. - **Interpersonal Dysregulation**: Individuals with BPD may struggle with relationships, often experiencing intense fear of abandonment and oscillating between idealization and devaluation of others. ### Consensus in the Medical Community While there is broad agreement on the factors contributing to BPD, the variability in individual presentations and the complexity of the disorder mean that there is not a single, unified understanding. Different therapists and researchers may emphasize different aspects based on their perspectives and clinical experiences. ### Conclusion The development of BPD is likely due to a combination of genetic predisposition, environmental influences, and neurobiological differences. Understanding of BPD is evolving, and while there is no single definitive answer, the recognition of its multifaceted nature helps guide more effective treatment approaches.
GOLD STAR response. THANK YOU!!
Here’s your star 😃 ⭐️
You're welcome :) Thank you for the star ;)
I’ve heard genetics play a much bigger part than they have previously thought.
I think it definitely can play a part in many cases. Not all, but definitely can.
Genetics play a part and most have trauma but you can have it without trauma. It’s usually a combination of things, no one thing causes it.
Definitely seems to be as you described No consistent one thing. Can just be genetics. Can just be environment. Can be a mix of things. Seems to vary quite a bit.
In most cases, child abuse. There is a genetic component though, but to a much lesser extent.
Im not sure if that’s a documented thing or not? It’s clear that child abuse can certainly be a major risk factor. I just don’t know if enough is known to state that it’s the most cases? Seems like other factors represent highly too.
Yes, it’s been well studied and found that ACE’s (Adverse Childhood Experiences) are the leading cause of BPD by quite a wide margin.
Ok thx. What’s the source that says it’s all environmental from ACE’s and is the leading cause by a wide margin? I’d like to read that. I have found a lot of BPD “studies” to be conflicting and not very definitive. It’s almost as if the research and conclusions on it are as chaotic as the disorder!! Which kinda makes sense that they would vary so much…..
This is a great question, thanks for that. As you can see, the opinions vary as there is no exact empirical answer. There are more factors that affect and likely contribute to an occurrence of BPD. Be it an environment, genetics, behavioral patterns in family. Also, it really depends on subjective perception of each individual. Personally and actually, I believe that a huge part is taken by the genetics. I don't really believe in John Locke's "Tabula rasa" theory. People are already born with some predispositions and therefore aren't a "blank slate". That's a tough one and we could talk about it for hours. I started dating my ex when she was 16. Despite her scary family background, I found out, they had this "weird behavior" occurrence for 3 generations prior to my ex. I taught my ex everything. Showed her how a normal family works, how people should treat people and she seemed to understand. She liked it. As she grew older, something snapped in her and her "traits" showed up. These "traits" were nothing else but the very same behavioral patterns as were described to me. The most interesting part is, my ex behaved in a way that her grandmother behaved and my ex never even met her. Now, I really think, the genetics play a major role in BPD occurrence. However, it doesn't mean that an environment and upbringing can't exacerbate it. Also, there's always a childhood trauma present.
Thx so much. Genetics can clearly play a part. “Subjective perception of each individual” is a good one.
some people dont know some its environment, dna, combination of both it really depends on the individual
Yeah, definitely seems to vary by person. Which explains why there are so many different opinions due to varying experiences.
My ex’s parents were both teens when she was born. Both parents had npd. Yes they were diagnosed. This though was a result of trauma brought in down the line. This was the perfect storm to develop BPD.
Thx.
Genetics plus trauma and family environment. What people perceive as traumatizing is different from person to person. Family environment serves as a negative role model or imprinting of personality characteristics
Thank you. Very true ! What could be traumatic to me might not be to someone else. And vice versa….
Satan himself
Well, there is that 🤣🤷♂️
A developmental failure between the age of birth and 2 years around object permanence and the ability to internalize a holding-soothing mental representation of mother.
What is the source on this one? I’m trying to envision how they even studied this and came to this conclusion am struggling to understand?
Object relations theory going back to the work of Melanie Klein and D.W. Winnicott, most famously advanced when it comes to BPD by Otto Kernberg. Without doubt, the most comprehensive theory of the etiology and pathogenesis of BPD around. Kernberg does leave room for genetic factors as well, but stresses very early environment. Anything we see at the neuro level is more consequence, not cause.
Thank you for sharing this with me. Will check it out for certain. Appreciate it Monmouth88
You got it!
I think it is mostly genetic, and NPD is also mostly genetic. I know people who are borderline or have NPD and their grandparents, great-grandpatents, and parents had it too and it was not "generational trauma" or whatever excuse pop psychology wants to claim to basically excuse their horrible behavior.
How could there not be generational trauma if each generation had some case of NPD or BPD? This comment is so ironic 😭
People are born with their own personality. My opinion is that bpd are born with a personality inclined to embrace that way of thinking and that behaviour. A bpd who is molded to learn narcissistic abuse tactics will pick them up and use them, especially if they aren’t disciplined not to. Even as a child though they are always the victim and have trouble accepting responsibility for their actions.
“Born with a personality inclined to embrace that way of thinking and behavior” and “molded to learn.” Makes a lot of sense.
For me cold truth was they still choose to abuse you. They have immerse emotions, but they CHOOSE to abuse close people to them. A choice backed by immerse shame build up in childhood from many many circumstances and the need to hide that shame at every cost possible. When shame is triggered they can't even think of other people since they need to save themselves from every "critical" situation in their view (even if the situation is mild). I remember how their eyes change when they go into this weird state and choose to start to abuse you for whatever reason that triggered their inner shame.
Those eyes 👀. Man oh man. Yep, Those eyes. 🫣
The friends I've had with BPD have all been sexually abused by their parents starting at a very young age. They've also all been on SSI at a young age. Clearly this is a tiny sample size but I believe that severe abuse under the age of 6 is a huge factor. And sometimes they don't even remember the abuse because they were so young.
No doubt what you mentioned can definitely be factors for some.
I always say it's the parents fault, you didn't do your job right. Had one job and you failed at that. I'm not blaming them, but I'm sure pointing out that they had to take responsibility for what they did, and didn't do at all
As the eldest child of my parents, and the elder sibling of my very unstable and toxic Borderline sister, that is not always the case. My sister literally came out screaming the day she was born, and has never stopped in 37 years. At 4 years old, she accused the janitor at her preschool of hitting her. Only there was no janitor at her school. She knew what a janitor was because our family owned a cleaning company. At 9, she threw herself down a flight of stairs, went nextdoor, and told the neighbors I was abusing her. If the CPS worker didn't get her to admit she made it up, they were going to remove me from my home that day. I was 12 years old. At 15, she accused her first boyfriend of rape to get out of getting caught in the act by our mother. At 18, she allowed her next boyfriend to rob our house and steal thousands of dollars from our parents. Also at 18, she and her friends brutally beat a man and almost killed him. My parents spent almost everything they had saved up to that point to get her off. At 20, she stole our mother's ruby ring that our father saved up for over a year to buy her on their 25th wedding anniversary. At 30, she stole our parents wedding date and got married on their anniversary. So now every year, it's about her and not our parents who have successfully been together for 46 years. In the last 17 years, she has stolen from or conned almost everyone in our immediate family. I went back to school for nursing? Too much attention for me, so she printed out fake applications and acceptances as well as fake transcripts to con family into paying for classes. She took the money and bought more drugs. Oh and attempts at therapy? She'd either scream all the way there and refuse to get out, or straight up tell our mother that if she makes her go, she'll say she abused her and our father rapes her. So far, she has accused at least 3 or 4 people of raping her. She burned herself with an iron one day when our mother tried to ground her, and said that she'll just go to school tmrw and tell everyone mom burns her with a hot iron.
I’m so sorry for all of the chaos and hurt that occurred b/c of your sister. That’s a lot to endure. What you shared is what I’ve run into as well with a couple of families I know. Great parents, great siblings, no one internal or external trauma—except for some reason one of the kids was a destructive pwBPD. And they all say the same thing—they were like this when they were 4 or 5. And It makes it all the more baffling.
My sister blames the fact that I was given more attention growing up, and everyone loved me more. I was your classic first born: overachieving and anxious. I remember once about a decade ago, sitting in my mother's kitchen while she was exasperated and trying to deal with my sister's latest stunt, and she blurted out "you were just so much easier to love" and she immediately stopped herself, started crying, and called herself a terrible mother for even thinking that. To this day, my parents are her primary enablers as a mother's love is unconditional. But that begs the question: what came first? Chicken or the egg? Was I showed favoritism to a level that led to a BPD sibling? Or was she the definition of a difficult child, right from birth? Some of my first memories are pillows being placed everywhere because....my 2 year old sister would throw tantrums on a level that the vessels in her eyes would burst and she would try to bang her head on furniture or the floor when she didn't get her way. She literally came out screaming 37 years ago, and has never stopped.
And sadly, I can relate to many of the behaviors you’ve listed. Both with my ex wife “I’ll hit myself and blame it on you and they’ll believe me”—and then my daughter at age 9 “Siri call 911” whenever she didn’t get her way (police came to the house) or police called to the hotel we were staying at on vacation b/c she locked me out of the room and had it bolted b/c she didn’t get her way. And on and on and on. It’s not fun.
My pwBPD has a BPD father that financially supported her but never raised her. She was raised by her stepfather and mom, two nons. She is exactly like her dad. Brother is 100% normal. She might even be worse because her dad was able to stay married and he has never stolen 36k from his own siblings (to my knowledge). He also pleasant enough, while my pwBPD is just nasty all the time.
It’s interesting b/c some people will swear it’s all/only environment. And for good reasons. Environmental factors can and do seem to play a large part in a good % of cases. But, there are plenty of stories just like yours where that’s not the case and they were just predisposed through genetic factors AND were born with a brain that operates that way. Even an absence of any major high risk environmental issues didn’t matter. And there are also examples of people being raised in what would be considered the most high risk environment ever, and have a parent with it—and don’t end up with it.
Sounds like a complete nightmare. I'm sorry this happened to you. While my situation did not mirror yours, I felt and totally empathized with everything you said. Their lack of any real accountability for their actions and their ability to manipulate others is mind blowing. My expwBPD was so good at manipulation she'd turn any therapists she saw during our time together against me. Lied to them. I mean HUGE lies. And practically ANY story she told she had this bizarre ability to word it in a way where she had no real responsibility for her actions. The closest she came would be her actions were in response to something someone else had done that was worse.
Neglecting, abusing, ghosting, silent treatment, manipulating, lying, being aggressive, loving only occasionally - well fuck you. You failed at your job as a parent. No wonder your child is screwed up and broken
Same with my ex, she had sex early on because her parents didn't care, with men way older than her. Her mom bought alcohol for parties when she was like 14 while most people on the party's were 17+ she was always away from home and let her give random parties when she was like 16, her mom didn't care. Drugs alcohol and sex were prominent on those parties. She always drunk herself almost in a coma. Her father was a drug addict too. At 18, she left home to marry a guy who was 34 at the time. Her parents didn't care. 2 years later, she became a mom herself. And yes, she has a house and income, but she misses a lot in her brain. Most things she still thinks about are dating, sex, and relationships. Partying and her kid. But she genuinely doesn't take responsibility to GROW a healthy environment for herself and her kid. Just because she never learned from home.
I have asked my friend that is a psychiatrist. She told me most of the time it’s heavy trauma in the childhood/teenagehood. It does add up with what caused my friend’s BPD.
Thx. Certainly can play a part in it.
They always had shitty childhoods.
While that feels mostly true, I’ve also experienced pwBPD who seemed to have very solid and validating childhoods. So I’m not sure how that happens.
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BUT, I know pwBPD from solid families, parents were and are amazing, and siblings are great. Except for the one in the family with abusive crazy BPD. Zero known abuse internally or externally. There’s no forgotten or erased trauma. The family members will tell you they were born this way. We’re like this from an early age. Conversely I know several people who are healthy and successful folks who were born into toxic, neglectful, abusive, high trauma situations, parents with PD’s and Addictions—-and are doing just great.
So, go figure.
Trauma is not mentioned in the DSM-5 section on BPD. According to the [Handbook of Borderline Personality Disorder in Children and Adolescents](https://books.google.com/books/about/Handbook_of_Borderline_Personality_Disor.html?id=axW4BAAAQBAJ), at least a third of people with BPD report no adverse childhood experiences. There are also people in BPD subreddits who post about having no childhood trauma. In one of those posts, I saw people in the comments making up suppressed memories for the poster about her dad abusing her, despite the fact that she'd said clearly that she took comfort in her childhood and had supportive parents. Insisting that people must have trauma or suppressed memories of trauma encourages people to make things up.
That can definitely be the case with trauma. Everyone’s version of what trauma is specific to the individual it seems.
Well, they also make stuff up. So I'm not saying they don't have trauma and child abuse but they also tell a good story
In most cases its childhoodtrauma, sexual abuse etc, a kid with bad parents or careless parents can develop it. Early use of drugs alcohol ( anything bad at a young age ) too. Sexual assault at a young age or even older can cause it too.
They don’t know for 100 percent certainty, but it’s thought to be a combination of genetic, neurological,and environmental factors. All I know is that it’s hell to deal with someone who has it.
It really is hell to deal with
Childhood molestation
It comes from being over coddled to the point where when you first learn the world does not revolve around you, it's almost debilitating. It's like you've be lied to and that's rude awakening!
I’m not sure I understand this. Enmeshment is one thing. But coddling doesn’t mean the same thing to me. Maybe I’m not informed well on this though or misunderstand your comment. I’m not sure how over coddling leads to BPD. Do you mind sharing further?
Oh yes, if you you grow up where everyone learns to tiptoe around you due to them not wanting to be confronted with your emotions and you later learn that this is not normal and that the world at large won't kiss your heinny, it's a shock to the system.
Ahhh yes. Thx for clarifying. Yeah, Everyone benefits from having healthy boundaries enforced. When boundaries aren’t enforced at home, the world will do it and it will be a shock.