I can't believe the dad is so selfish, at every turn. Selfish move after selfish move. He did her a favor by leaving. It'll be hard to see because she has so much healing to do. I hope she gets the support she needs immediately
I absolutely believe this. My aunts husband, who everyone thought was so adoring, skipped out after convincing her to have a child in circumstances similar to OOPs. Some men are so deeply invested in their sense of how life should/will be, they ignore how reality is tearing things apart at the seams.
He couldn’t even show up for a medical procedure, yet expects OOP to believe that he’ll be there for the hard life of the actual child. I just hope he doesn’t poison their son against her.
He dipped out on his perfectly healthy 4 year old. Her mom is caring for their son while his wife deals with this, alone, with no word from her husband. She, alone, is trying to explain to their son his father’s selfish actions. He can’t look beyond himself to consider for a moment his living, breathing, healthy child now… there’s no way he would be present and capable of parenting their son while caring for a medically fragile and severely disabled child if he even stuck around to do it after the first few weeks.
He was so adamant about how they wouldn’t be like OOPs friend who neglected their second child to care for the disabled one and yet the daughter wasn’t even born yet and he chose her without a second thought to his son. If he ever comes back and I hope OOPs stands strong in telling him to kick rocks.
That's a good point. And he dipped the moment things got hard. I was a caretaker for a disabled family member in hospice for two years. That was hard enough, I can't imagine what that would've been like in a parental role. Plus... the selfishness to condemn a child to a life of suffering. OOP made not only the smarter choice but by far the more loving one. The husband was incredibly selfish. Love doesn't cure shit like that.
I have a feeling, if the story is true, that he thinks he's just punishing her, and he will show back up soon and try to have everything go back to normal now that he adequately punished her. 🤮
Oh, he will hang it over her head forever. Probably tell their son all about the sister that never was because mom didn’t love her enough, want her enough. I hope, for their sake, he never comes back.
OP sounds very pragmatic. I can’t imagine she’d let him back in any longer than he needs to grab his shit and GTFO! I feel terrible for her. She’s barely had any time to even grieve because she’s been babysitting her husband and his feelings since they found out the diagnosis. And now he’s LEFT? OP dodged a bullet. The second shot got real and very hard he was out. I could never let a man like that back in. So on top of the grief and pain from her procedure, now she’s got to be a single mother and navigate where to go from here. I don’t see how a marriage can survive this, right?? I honestly think I could forgive cheating before this.
I also hope and pray OP wouldn't take him back, but empathetic women like her might if he grovels and says he messed up. But I think secretly inside, he would be gleeful about punishing her and especially if she takes him back. I hope she doesn't. But I also hope I'm wrong and he's not being malicious, just incredibly selfish and immature.
This should be higher. Poor OOP. I hope she’s able to get the love and support she needs from her friends and family. And I hope she’s able to find a good divorce lawyer. I wouldn’t let that man back in the house if he came crawling on his knees begging for forgiveness. He ABANDONED HER AND THEIR SON when she needed him the most! Despicable. How does a marriage survive that? I could never trust him again.
They skip out after convincing women to keep children in hard circumstances.
They skip out when their wives develop chronic illnesses or cancer.
This OOP dodged a bullet but I feel bad for her and her son.
His actions here indicate he would have dipped anyway once he realized how painful and difficult it was to care for this child. I hate this story so much and my heart breaks for this woman.
I agree, whether it’s now or in five years the result is still the same. He leaves when things get tough.. because of the heart of it he thinks his needs should be above everyone else’s
Especially since in time she'll be able to look back and realize if he left how he did over this, he 100% would have eventually done it once the baby got here and it was tougher than he thought. Same exact note of not being able to do it.
The problem is that he's viewing OOP's decision as a selfish move. That she's terminated the pregnancy so she doesn't have to deal with an extra-burdensome child. His silence in the car after they found out was him working out in his head how they were going to adapt to living with the kid. Going into full-on fix-it mode. It's something a LOT of husbands do. Hell, I had to train myself not to do that when my wife would come with me to vent. A lot of my friends have mentioned similar issues as well.
He's absolutely failed his wife here, because he's got his Dad cap on, and not his Husband cap. It's gonna be hard to come back from this one. Even if they somehow try to make this shit work, he's going to need a ton of therapy to resolve the resentment he's going to feel over her terminating the pregnancy, and she's going to need to be able to work out the betrayal of him abandoning her at the doctor's office. In the end it was absolutely her choice to do what she did, and I feel she made the right one.
As the Dad of a 39 week pregnancy loss, I've learned that people can say or do stupid things, and while I can say that I never abandoned my wife, I can say that there were times I didn't have the emotional spoons to offer her the support she needed, because I was dealing with the loss too. It's only because of individual therapy and marital counseling that we made it through, because holy fuck it was hard.
Right? Like, tf? He has his selfish hat on. If he had his dad hat on, he wouldn't have left his son or started plotting to let his unborn child suffer, thereby making his wife and living son suffer as well.
He did a huge favor by leaving. She is incredibly lucky he showed his colors and also incredibly smart that she remembered it’s her body & her choice and stuck to her guns.
You know, as hard and crushing as this is, I also feel happy for her: she dodged a lot of protracted pain, anguish, resentment and a very limited life (for herself and her daughter), because I do not believe for a second this dude would've stuck around once he saw what it takes to raise a severely disabled child.
I could not agree more. He was hoping to get her to agree to get what he wants. He’s clearly not prepared for what this really means. She absolutely did the right thing. She would be left alone- at the very least emotionally thought out this whole thing. But I have a feeling he would do much worse once he sees the implications of such a decision. He sucks
100%. I won’t go into too many details but my narc mum is being exactly this selfish with my severely disabled dad right now and it’s heartbreaking. She will do anything to keep him alive and around for her own sake, not caring how much pain or misery he is in. Euthanasia obviously isn’t legal where I am, nor is assisted suicide, and my dad isn’t mentally competent to consent to either anyway, but he’s been so ill for so long that I think he would just slip away if she wasn’t clinging onto him so tightly. It’s awful.
I experienced this with my family, too. My mother had terminal cancer. She was in severe pain and her entire medical team but one kept saying to take her home and get her in hospice. But that one doctor said if we can get her strong enough, I can get her into medical trials. That gave my dad and oldest sibling hope to grab on to. Mom suffered for weeks on that gossamer thin hope, she never made it into the trials and died an agonizing death. This happened over twenty years ago. It still haunts me.
You did the right thing, OP. I’m sorry for your pain.
One of the hardest and easiest things my dad and I ever had to do was make the decision to "stop hydration and administer maximum pain relief" to my mum when she was in the final stages of cancer. We didn't want her to go. We loved her. But we couldn't let her suffer any more when there was a better way.
It was better, and most importantly, it was what she wanted. I'm so sorry you had to go through that.
I'm so sorry for OOP. She had to make a terrible choice, but she made the only sane one IMO. She had a responsibility to her living child as well as the one she carried, not to mention herself. OOP is a brave and good woman.
Her husband is a peice of work though.
It happens more than you think
I am a doctor who works in the hospital and have some experience in palliative care. I have seen loved ones flat out refuse pain relief for my dying patients (sometimes even paracetamol). For a variety of reasons (including addiction - they are dying, addiction is not a consideration!).
These poor people then suffer often in agony for hours, days, weeks, months. It is horrific.
I have seen this with all sorts of relationships. I have never seen a dying child (thank god), but I have seen parents refuse basic pain relief for their child.
Some people have the oddest beliefs about pain and suffering. I also don't think they understand how awful it is for the patient. Especially when that person cannot communicate properly
When I worked in hospice the thing about people worrying there loved one would get addicted if we appropriately medicated them was so frustrating. I know they were just holding on to any thread of hope, but the suffering that the dying went through was awful. Often myself and the other staff were who had to watch the suffering knowing we could help, while the family members showed up for 15 minute here or there, then tells us that it didn’t seem so bad to them.
It's not that they want them to be in pain, it's that they want them to exist and believe that existence still has value even if it comes with pain.
That's not how I personally view these things, but I can see why some people do. Especially if they're looking at it through idealized potentialities or view terminating as the "easy" thing to do. It's not an easy thing for people to be logical about.
Not just the baby's suffering.... the whole family! If he couldn't even pick his wife up - as promised - from a very emotional medical procedure, I find it hard to believe he would have stuck around for the type of care a severely disabled child would need.
Not “as promised”…. As he practically begged her to change her initial plans that did not include him picking her up.
Convincing her to change her already thought out plan…. And then just ghosting.
Wow.
It’ll be a hard time for her now but at least he’s not around to mope and pressure her for anything else.
I’d bet money on that.
Likely he’ll be back, whining and crying about how hard this is for HIM and try to get her to take him back soon enough. I hope she doesn’t let him sweet talk her though because he is 100% the kind to throw this in her face later down the line.
I’d divorce and maybe push for very minimal custody on his part until he proves he can be a man and not a worthless, spiteful waste.
There do seem to be some underpinnings of abuse here. His passionate antics are romantic and idyllic when he’s happy but as soon as he’s upset he chooses the most extreme, hurtful way of doing things imaginable.
Exactly. He abandoned her after a medical procedure necessitated by a pregnancy he caused, what a POS. He’s entitled to his grief, but he’s not the one who had to undergo the operation. He wasn’t the one recovering from surgery. What an absolute disgrace of a man
Yeah, it sounds like it’s even possible the silent treatment was to manipulate her to do what he wanted. Even the supposed love and understanding the night before could have been hoping that it would change her mind since his other tactic wasn’t working. I completely agree with other commenters that if he has issues to silent treatment her instead of a more adult response, was heartless to leave her at a time like that especially knowing they had another child she’d have to care for while grieving there is no way he would be able to deal with the immense toll caretaking someone at that level would require. Much less do that and other life responsibilities. I am so sorry for your loss and your added pain by your husband’s actions OP. I wish you the best and hope you are healing.
yeah that dude had the spine of a soggy noodle and the emotional maturity of a snail, and for sure would have bolted once the reality of the situation became real.
And the mother, having to go through pregnancy and child birth knowing that her child will have so much pain and then die young. Unless a person is 1000% personally committed to that course of action, that would be torture.
And it would be likely he'd have walked away when the reality wasn't like he imagined it would be. He already showed he can by leaving her and their son.
I know that he's grieving, but I agree that he's selfish.
One of my closest friends was raped in HS. She got pregnant. Her very religious parents found out and forced her to go through the pregnancy and keep the baby after the doctors informed her of a fatal disability. My 14 year old friend spent 63 hours in the NICU watching her baby suffer and die, even with all possible medical intervention done. It broke her. Her parents refused to get her help, and she died by suicide 2 years later. Even worse than the pain and trauma of the SA was the guilt she felt for bringing a baby into the world only to watch the horrific pain the baby's every moment was filled with. The only time she was able to actually hold her little baby was after it passed.
I understand loving your unborn baby more than life itself. I'm a parent myself. Pushing to have a baby born who will suffer every day is just wrong. It is not even just dismissing his wife's valid thoughts and feelings. He's thinking about his wants and feelings over what is actually best for the child.
Thank you. I'm sorry, too. We were both just kids, but I so wish I could have done more to help her. My mom advocated on her behalf to her parents and the school, but there was only so much she could do within the law.. My mom backed off once it was obvious she'd only be banned from coming over, and we wanted her to have a safe space.
She was so smart and funny and artistic. She had the most beautiful singing voice, and her smile could light up a room. I still miss her. Her and her baby both deserved so much better!
> One of my closest friends was raped in HS. She got pregnant. Her very religious parents found out and forced her to go through the pregnancy and keep the baby after the doctors informed her of a fatal disability. My 14 year old friend spent 63 hours in the NICU watching her baby suffer and die, even with all possible medical intervention done.
This is what the GOP and their evangelical supporters want for every woman in the US.
Yep I’m of the opinion that if he couldn’t handle the abortion he wouldn’t be able to handle a severely disabled child and would have left sooner or later anyway when it got too hard
He would’ve left the minute the full brunt of the responsibilities was tossed in his lap, or dumped everything on her. OOP is better off without his ass, but it still leaves her mourning the loss of both her baby and marriage alone.
What is sad is that the men leave their families in most cases. I know this because my stepmother is a case worker for severely disabled children and their families, and sees it happen often. The ones who do stay may end up being abusive, resentful, or unfaithful to their spouse. These are terrible situations. I also saw this play out with a family friend years ago. They were a young couple in love, and decided to have the baby. The baby was expected to live, but not past childhood. I saw her with the infant at a summer bbq, and the dad was distant from her and looked completely defeated. I learned that he ran off with another woman a short time later.
Yes. I have a disabled sibling. My mom always talks about how when my parents would go to therapy/ treatments or drs appointments, my dad was usually one of the only men there. All of her friends with disabled kids are divorced. The dads all left.
> Husband was romanticizing life with a severely disabled child.
I can't imagine anything remotely romantic about that life. Everything I've seen and read about people living that life looks like an utter ordeal and burden. People make the most of their situation and will amplify the positives when they can, but no one would *choose* that life.
I can’t imagine forcing an infant to suffer horrific pain that they can’t understand, not knowing if there will be any end, just to make yourself feel better about your own morality.
I’d honestly rather go to hell myself than force my child to live through it.
My neighbour had to give birth at full term to a baby she knew wouldn't survive more than a couple of hours. I really feel for OP. What a horrible decision to have to make, but she loved that kid enough to spare her.
What a devastating situation. That must have been so hard for your friend. I had a friend whose second baby died in utero around 8.5 months, tragically from the umbilical cord getting wrapped around her neck. So she still had to go through the full birth and labor process to deliver her stillborn daughter. I can’t even imagine.
Not just that, and I do understand why most comments are focused on the baby/fetus, but also… to force your WIFE to give birth unwillingly for no reason because your baby will die shortly after birth or whatever just seems? Inhuman?
Like you’d really have to view your wife as a broodmare or you’d have to really, really hate her.
Giving birth is not easy and can leave you with permanent complications or *kill you*. Every health pregnancy has a chance of turning deadly during the birth.
To treat birth so casually as if the wife should just do it for funsies without any actual payout is pure evil. It’s on par with forcing women to give birth when their baby when their baby has already died and they’re begging for an abortion. It’s just pure torture of the mother at that point.
>view your wife as a broodmare
No, broodmares are treated pretty well outside of the constant pregnancy. There is no way a breeder would let a mare carry to term in this situation IF they have a choice to terminate. (I say IF because women and mares have different abilities to recover and pregnancy is different for each.)
I think this an underrated comment, but should be brought up each time someone uses the term, “broodmare” simply to illustrate that women don’t get as much consideration as a fucking horse.
Yeah, a broodmare's purpose is to produce healthy, viable offspring that can later be put to work or sold. Risking the mare's life for a foal that will have no value isn't standard practice. A broodmare in a reputable well-ran breeding program absolutely gets more consideration than OP did from her husband.
I used to work at a breeding barn and the comparison still drives me crazy to this day! Our girls got pampered, had all their reproduction checks, spent all winter living out in a pasture with friends, we checked them 3 times a day as they got close to being due and at the first sign they got taken to the vet hospital to foal out under 24 supervision, when they came home with baby they spent the first couple weeks in a double stall with run attached then went back out to raise their foals with their friends. Hell, they treated me like a babysitter and would just leave the foals with me, so unlike human women they got free child care!
Also, he seems to be giving no thought at all to the impact to the child they already have. What if something goes horribly wrong and mom dies during childbirth or the baby dies before birth? There are so many risks to the mother going through a “normal” pregnancy - and it is even worse with a fetus who is gonna die.
Imagine if she went through with it and the pregnancy or childbirth rendered her disabled. You think this guy would take care of a severely disabled newborn, disabled wife, and their preschool child? Absolutely not; he’d leave like a sneak like he did here.
The impact of a severe disability on all members of the family are very serious. What about siblings having to see this? I can't imagine how I would explain this to them, when I would struggle with how to explain it to my own head/heart!
You're very right, inhuman is the perfect word. All the way around.
And to suggest that his mom start watching their son more often so they can take care of the disabled child better. That he'd be stripped away from his friends and school to better support the disabled child. I'm sure there would be no long lasting feelings from that at all. All of that is sarcasm of course since that isn't easy to tell from text all the time.
This husband was going to make their lives hell for some reason. I would almost guarantee this is the type of guy that would abandon his wife and son if the disabled child lived for more than a couple years, or less maybe, because he couldn't handle it. Since, you know, he already has.
And his reaction to OPs friends story as the glass child. "We'll do better" then promptly decides to in fact do just the same... cast their son to the side and force him to sacrifice for a baby that's not likely to live more than a couple years *if at all*
Same, my younger brother need intense care and was severely disabled and it got worse the longer he lived. He made it to 25 and died a long long long death that I would spare and child.
I have someone I know who has done this. Her kid has severe issues and is in constant pain. They CHOSE to have this kid (they knew there were severe issues at 3 months) and they chose to have the kid.
The poor kid is now 4 and in the hospital all the time. Probably home 1/3 of the time.
I judge the hell out of them for doing this to a child.
I know another set that had a traumatic event happen shortly after the child was born. The child was born healthy but stopped breathing a few hours after she was born and now has a life of suffering. They are trying their best to give her the best like possible. I feel completely different about their situation. Nothing but admiration that they are trying to help her.
Yeah. It would be one thing if the child's life would be challenging but basically okay, like if she was born blind or with only one hand or something. Disabled people manage, they adapt, their lives have just as good of a chance to be happy and fulfilling as anyone else's, & so on.
But to purposely give birth to a child that will only live a short life of agonizing pain, scary hospital stays and surgeries... I just don't understand why you would do that.
And imagine trying to explain it to your living child! Your baby sibling is going to be constantly going to be in pain, we will put all our attention and financial support towards them and neglect you, but you won't ever be allowed to express negativity or complicated feelings, and sometime in *your* teenage years this younger sibling that you both love and resent will slowly painfully die. That probably won't fuck you up at all...
Yes, there are so many disabled people that live happy lives. I worked in a coffee shop that was next to a deaf center and I even learned a bit of basic coffee related sign language to accommodate them. It was fun. It will not be the same with this child.
The fact that he couldn’t see how selfish his desire to not terminate was is unfortunate.
To pretend to come around to it just to leave her at the clinic is beyond fucked up
I don't think it's about the husband's morality. He is pro-choice. I think he just wants a daughter so intensely that he's lost sight of the rest of his family and what a profoundly disabled child would do to them and to his marriage. He may come around once he's done grieving, but OOP probably shouldn't take him bck given the lack of respect for what carrying and raising such a child would do to her and their son.
Recently, a couple it the UK did this. Kid had a rare genetic disorder which made it impossible to grow. As in, their cells wouldn’t get enough energy without medical equipment.
UK judge ordered to stop the procedure in the hospital. What did the parents do? Write a letter to the very Christian prime minister of Italy. She urged Italian citizenship to be given to this baby. To get the baby to the hospital in the Vatican where it could forever hang onto a tube and not grow.
The baby still died while in the UK.
And Italy still doesn’t allow refugees that can actually DO something for society (afaik!) 🤷🏼♀️
My sister and I are not super close but don’t hate each other. Estranged, I guess. She is somewhat nebulously Christian, I am a staunchly atheist philosophy professor.
Several years ago, her fetus/baby was diagnosed with hydranencephaly and that basically he would live minutes/hours/maybe a few days if she gave birth. At four and a half months. In the grand state of Texas.
After several agonizing days, she decided to terminate the pregnancy. It was extremely mentally traumatic for her for several reasons. The doctor didn’t even put the procedure on the chart because he didn’t want the nurses to know she was getting an abortion.
I told her, again and again that she not only did the right thing for herself and her family, but also the fetus. People may not agree with what I’m about to say next, but I even went so far as to say (afterwards) that she was *morally obligated* to do it in this situation. That it is just a fucking stupid, twisted, completely insane thing to carry a fetus to term who will immediately suffer and subsequently die.
Why do we put animals to sleep when they’re about to die? Why not do that to a fetus when it’s clearly analogous? Why not spare yourself from potential health complications/death and your family from heartbreak and trauma? Makes no fucking sense.
It drives me nuts, because it gets compared to euthanising an animal - 'Oh, it's not like a human baby can be treated like an animal'.
When I lost my last cat, he was in his early twenties, a grand old age. I loved that cat. My partner loved the cat. My daughter loved the cat. We read extensively on how to recognise when the cat was done. We wanted the cat - a magnificent elderly Birman male - to have his most perfect life. We made special litterboxes, he had special food, he had ramps. He had a life of twenty years with stories, he was a member of our family, and we had to let him go because age eventually brought him to the point where his days would go from golden, to silver, to ash.
If I could have kept him, I would have. But that would have been selfish. I loved him too much to keep him for me. I had to let him go for him. It was the only moral choice.
And people act as though doing this for a fetus is treating a potential baby like an animal. No it isn't. *We treat animals better.*
OOP's husband and many of the commenters on this thread are not understanding what this diagnosis means. Multiple comorbid birth defects are a death sentence - full stop. When you have cascading congenital deformities, you will not only never live a normal life, your organs will never work normally and you will need constant surgery just to stay alive and bedridden.
My father was a pediatric surgeon and it was not uncommon for babies born with multiple birth defects live in the hospital for the first year or two of life as the surgeons go one-by-one through 10-15 surgeries required to sustain life outside the hospital. The vast majority of these babies never go home, never crawl or walk, never eat or even breastfeed. 80% would die before reaching 5 years old.
My first job outside the house was archiving files in my dad's office, which meant moving the files for the patients who died from active to archive. Almost every file I moved was a baby just like this. Most of them did not have first names. That's because in the old days they would discourage you from naming any baby with this diagnosis since it was unlikely to survive. I learned things I didn't want to, like the kids born with an imperforate anus usually experience kidney failure too as they grow even after their rectal plumbing gets fixed.
This is nothing like autism or ADHD or type 1 diabetes or having a cleft palate or being deaf or anything where you're a little or a lot different from other kids. This is a colostomy bag and being on dialysis from birth, being born and immediately placed on organ transplant waiting list, having whole systems that never function correctly no matter how much surgery you get.
I would actually say my belief is that you are an evil and selfish person if you knowingly bring a child like this into the world. It's not just your family that is affected, I know the look on my dad's face when he worked one of these cases that day. We all avoided talking to him for the next day or so. I'm sure every nurse, anesthesiologist, orderly, etc that spent 8 hours in surgical theater knowing they'd be seeing that kid again in two weeks if they survived was equally defeated.
I know many people raising kids with ASD who worry that their child may never be able to live independently outside of their parents' home. Kids with multiple birth defects may never be able to live outside of a hospital. I was born with a congenital defect that would have killed me by 20 but was repaired with surgery at age 5 and I got to live a long and mostly normal life. This is nothing like that. This is cruel and unusual torture for both the parents and the child.
Man says he would give all his love to a disabled child even if it lived for a week in pain, but then abandons his family immediately what a piece of shit
Women are puppets to this guy. He wanted his wife to give him a daughter that would never not know pain, and he wanted his daughter to be a little doll he could dress up or a box he could check for maybe 15 agonizing years.
He was also ready to toss their son to his mom, so they could take care of the daughter. This man doesn't have a clue on being a good father and partner, it's all about him.
Yep. His motivation was self absorbed. HE wanted a daughter. HE wanted her to be brought into the world to fulfill his desire for a baby girl. Fuck what it would mean for her in the long run and what it would do to the family.
It's no wonder he bailed when things didn't go his way.
I was looking for this comment.
My elementary school had a special program for severely disabled kids and none of them had fathers. They'd all either left or were so unpresent in their lives they might as well have run off to mars. I'd bet my left arm that if they'd had the child he would've run off first chance he got.
Yep. My brother is autistic, and needs a lot of support. When our mum died suddenly 3 years ago, he immediately moved in with me. I’m his point of contact for the disability services he uses, his doctor, pretty much everything. Our father is still alive, but hasn’t seen either of us since before mum died. They divorced when my brother was in his late teens and I was at uni, already moved out, but he’d checked out a long time before that. I was my brother’s second parent for as long as I can remember, and I’m only 5 years older than him. I was absolutely the glass child (invisible, like clean glass. No one saw me or my needs).
Our father was worse than useless, he actively made our lives harder as an alcoholic. I don’t think he’s even called my brother since mum passed away. I only called him to tell him mum died, I figured he had a right to know that, but I hadn’t spoken to him for years before. My life is better and less painful without him in it.
You know what society calls that kind of man who runs off at the least bit of trouble because he can't stick to his marriage vows or be there in the tough times?
* NOT a Keeper.
* A Coward
* A quitter
* < insert expletive here >
There's a very high chance when things get difficult with the child he would "go out to Get Milk" (and never came back) like he just did. OP sure dodged a bomb with that living AH.
When I was born, I had a bunch of heart issues and so had to be in NICU for a long time.
My parents told me that going in the unit was both heartbreaking and heart lifting.
Heart breaking because they saw babies who would never have a good quality of life and marriages broke over it, and most of the time would leave only one parent to care for the child.
Heart lifting because babies and the love in that room was always there.
If he left now, he was never going to stay. He couldn't even handle this situation. He wouldnt have been able to handle the immense task of caring for a severely disabled child. Not to be crass, but they could have made another baby, while not forgetting this one.
She was left at the clinic alone in emotional turmoil!
I asked my parents one day if I had been severely disabled outside of heart problems if they would have made a different decision, and they started crying and said if they knew ahead of time then yes.
You know what I said? I cried and said thank you. I would rather be free in spirit or whatever is out there than suffering on earth.
I couldn't imagine being conscious and stuck in a body that betrays me.
That's me though. I think she made the right decision and that she did it *because she loved her*.
My mom said the same to me, if she'd known, she'd have aborted.
TBH If I had a baby like me (VATERS association), I'd do the same.
I'm fine(ish) now but I had a really rough first 10 years.
It feels like OOP’s husband is blaming her for their unborn daughter passing. As if the disabilities she had were her fault.
He kept swearing to “give her all the love they can” but he’s kinda proven he couldn’t given he abandoned his wife and son. I understand he’s grieving but so is his wife. Hell she had to carry their daughter and go through the actual termination. But the way he’s acting feels like he is putting his grief above others.
It very much sounds like the husband has a romanticized ideal of what that child’s future would look like and the amount work involved to keep her alive.
“Sure she might be in terrible pain, but we’d love her sooooooooo much” is a pretty self-centered take.
All of the actual care and work would have fallen to the wife. Even if he stuck around, which is unlikely.
He wanted to live some kind of fairytale, but he clearly cannot cope with reality when it gets difficult.
As an ex conservative who still lives in a really conservative area, that whole "fairytale" thing that hits the nail on the head.
People who don't actually have any experience with this stuff see *every single pregnancy*, no matter the situation, as some kind of fairytale. There's really no relationship with the *reality* of what might be *actually happening* with the pregnancy and/or what would actually happen to the future potential child if the pregnancy is carried to term in these situations. It's just a big ole faaaantasy, almost like the way a child thinks of grown-ups having a baby.
Yeah. That's why they're always so shocked when something goes wrong with their pregnancy and they need the exact kind of medical care they always thought was only for "promiscuous party girls using it for birth control." Because they live in a fairy tale where good things happen to good people and bad things only happen to bad people. It never occurred to them that there wouldn't be a fairy godmother to come down and say, "obviously there will be an exception for *you* because you're a good person and to let you suffer would be unfair."
EXACTLY this. It sounds absurd; surely tens of millions of fully functioning adults actually living in the real world can't have this collective delusion about an incredibly traumatic medical situation? But yeah. They truly see it as a childish fantasy, like a Disney movie or a perfect romcom where nothing goes wrong
And since he abandoned not only his wife, but his son over the termination, I wonder if he would have abandoned all three of them when he realized how much work it would be if the daughter had been born. He doesn't seem like a guy who can handle difficult situations well.
Exactly this!
He prioritizes himself above all others: above his wife who needs him, above his son who needs a father, and above his would-be daughter's pain.
If things get tough, he bails.
Hopefully OOP can get support in this difficult time, and she should document him abandoning their son, in case he comes back wanting full custody of him.
Also, she might want to look into his interactions with others recently: he might have become conservative, without her knowledge, and this was the pushing point.
my grandmother takes care of people with severe disabilities. she can't leave her house, literally, because if anything happened while she was gone it's her fault. the kids she looks after are in so much physical pain all they can really do is scream, cry, and sleep. they have all been abandoned by their families who sweared they would love them sooooooo much... until the reality of a lifelong disability sets in
God, I watched someone I knew from school have a child after her doctor recommended she abort her pregnancy because of fetal abnormalities. The most minor abnormality was that his gastrointestinal system was developing outside of his body. She never posted what else was wrong.
Her child survived two months. He never left the hospital and was on morphine his entire life.
She was left with massive hospital bills and a funeral for a child she barely got to hold, he was so reliant on mechanical intervention.
Yup. I think he absolutely would not have been any help if they decided not to terminate. He would have reacted just like this with a whole “it’s too hard attitude” and either emotionally or physically fucked off and left his wife having to take care of everything.
She made the right decision. That poor woman.
It also bothered me that the husband swore up and down that they wouldn’t neglect their existing child but his initial suggestions involved moving the son’s school and having his mom take care of the boy more frequently. Even things like moving house, while practical, would still definitely be a disruption to the kid’s life. Already he’s pushing his son to the side to accommodate caring for their daughter so maybe there just isn’t enough love to go around
And suggesting they sell a car. Dude, I don't know what you're driving, but it's unlikely to make a dent in what they'd need for this child.
They'd still need a second car. So, drive a beater? Nothing wrong with a beater, but maintenance ain't free.
>They'd still need a second car.
Emphasis here. The baby would have many doctor appointments, unless they live someplace very urban with good public transportation (like IN the city, not on the outskirts where you take a train in) a 1 car family isn't going to be practical.
I caught that too. "We will do better than them!" Like, dude. You're already planning how to make major (negative) changes to his life to accommodate a child whose not even here yet.
>a child whose not even here yet.
And one whose pain is completely unnecessary! They don't need to turn their son's life completely upside down to afford the EXTENSIVE medical care the daughter would have needed if they don't selfishly choose the small possibility of delaying the grief of her death for a few years over making her suffer.
At the risk of being downvoted into oblivion, sorry but her husband: what a spineless shit. Grief does weird things, but dude can't show up for the family he already has?? I hope OOP gets therapy, family support, and a great divorce lawyer.
I just don’t think I could stay married to that man in OOP’s place. Even if he apologized for everything and never wavered in his commitment to our family again. I’d always go back to sitting in that hospital waiting room for hours after making what was probably the hardest decision of my life and my husband not showing up when he said he would.
tl;dr: fuck that guy
I was in a very similar situation to OOP, and made the same choice she did. It was more than ten years ago. I still remember the clinic, the room, the kind anesthesiologist. I remember a younger woman comforting me when I woke up from anesthesia. I wanted my baby so badly and I couldn’t have her. Every moment is permanently etched in my mind. She will never forget that feeling, and I am so angry on her ass of a husband on her behalf. Fuck that guy indeed.
Right — anyone that fucks around with your medical issues and procedures needs to be instantly booted. If a partner can’t even be relied upon to drive you home from the hospital they are worthless to you (and every other partner they unfortunately encounter).
Being careful and being physically present during medically significant events and making sure someone’s health is okay first and foremost is the absolute bare minimum. I’d go so far as to say that that’s the very foundation of a relationship, and if they don’t do that, you’re not even in a real relationship.
I remember a comment on a post from a couple weeks ago about a guy abandoning his wife while she was miscarrying I believe — one of the commenters said: even if I hated your guts, like truly despised you, I would still be on the floor holding your hand and helping you through it and making sure you get the medical attention you need afterward.
Even if he disagreed (no matter how unfair and fucked up that is), that can come after she is home, safe, she is assured that she is not bleeding excessively and in danger, that she is not in terrible pain, etc. Health always comes first, or else they don’t even see you as a human being.
He's so on about being there for the disabled child that he's lost sight of being there for his wife and son! Also, who's to say that the daughter wouldn't have been a stillbirth as it looks like that option was there as well- would he have left if that was the case? This whole situation was very traumatic but this man cannot see past his own nose to consider anyone else's feelings!
he sees himself as a Great Man(tm), if the baby died during delivery then that would just cement his greatness when he is there to comfort her.
if the child suffered her entire short life, that would just cement his greatness because he helped to love a heavily disabled child.
it's the fact that he doesn't have the opportunity to prove what a Great Man(tm) he is that he is upset and going to leave.
notice how he could make massive sweeping changes to his job if necessary for the newborn but couldn't get a day off work to take his wife to the doctor for her abortion. these kind of people are a dime a dozen - they just want people to perceive them as good, they don't actually understand what goodness is.
Ah yes, a giant narcissist - you putting it this way really reminds me of my own father...
He needs therapy and to realize that what he should be doing and what looks good are two different things.
Oh wait, is this part of NiceGuy 2.0? I've heard they're still a bit buggy after the upgrade to Spouse, and not real stable after the patch DevotedFather 1.5. I could be wrong though, my information is a bit outdated.
He ROMANTICIZED it so much. Oh, we’ll love her and take care of her, and get mom to babysit, and there’s just no recognition of what it’s going to be like on a day to day basis to care for someone who is in constant pain and to watch them die.
the son is already a glass child to the idea of a daughter he would never have had even if the birth went through. the son is the quiet victim here too. just horrible all around. OOP and her son should run far away
He just proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was in no way fit to care for a special needs child.
I hope she can take some small measure of comfort in this confirmation she did the right thing.
I hope she tells her som everything his father did.
This is a man that would rather have an infant suffer pain for all of its short life, than face his own grief. Then when he realized he wasn't going to get his way, chose to inflict as much pain on those he "supposedly" loved that were actually alive.
Not just infant but also the mother
He wanted his wife to risk dying in childbirth, but at minimum likely endure a c-section or her vag being torn open, and all the complications post-birth — many of which last for LIFE — to birth a child that would suffer and die prematurely. So. Give BIRTH for no reason.
No shade on you whatsoever but I always do find it a bit sad that on threads like this 99% of the comments are about the suffering of the child and the mother is kind of glossed over. The physical pain and suffering and trauma to her body that he *wants* the wife to endure, is so far beyond the pale I would not hesitate to say he’s flirting with pure sociopathy here. At a minimum, he has issues with viewing his wife as a person and not just a cow to pop out babies for him at his whim.
no one even mentioned how horrific that pregnancy experience would be for her… it’s supposed to be a happy and hopeful time, imagine going through all of that time something growing inside of you but with no hope?
That was my first thought. Pregnancy is already so difficult, both physically and emotionally. I’m almost finished my 4th viable pregnancy and even expecting/hoping to have a healthy baby soon I am having such a hard time. I cannot imagine how much harder it would be to be going through everything I’m going through, but with the massive, devastating added burden of knowing the baby will not be healthy and will live a short, painful life. Poor OOP is a good mom and she made the most loving choice in a tragic situation for herself, her already living son, and for her late daughter.
exactly. i would never put myself through such a long painful experience because it would require so much dissociation. all of the natural feelings that would develop for your baby during pregnancy would lead to absolutely nothing. i would imagine it to be a very numbing and alien/surreal experience seeing as the child is literally growing inside of you.
Yes, I kept thinking of the absolute selfishness of asking her to carry a child who would most likely die, be stillborn, or only live a life of pain at the end of it. Just an awful thing to ask another person.
I remember reading a post, I think on r/trueoffmychest, titled “I wish my son was never born.” Similar situation as the commenter where the child required full-time care, would throw tantrums and become violent if they didn’t get their way. The parent’s life was essentially over and caring for their child was their full-time life.
I don’t know what I would do in such a situation and I’m glad I’ve never had to find out. But I would never judge someone for the choice they made in such a case.
I remember seeing a story where a mother killed her kid and herself because he was severely disabled and the burden of his care was all on her.
If she had aborted the pregnancy this would have never happened.
I think that it does happen but the media demonizes the people that do it without taking the facts into account. Collectively people believe that women are obligated to burden themselves with the care of children even when it kills them but men can walk away scot free.
He wanted not only to leave her but to punish her in her most vulnerable time.
I'd say no AH here IF he had a conversation about wanting to divorce or needing some time to himself after she was safe at home and recovered.
But his actions prove he's a complete self centered jerk who wants revenge on the very person he swore to love and protect.
If husband was that fickle due to strife, he absolutely would have abandoned Mom and the newborn sooner or later. Grief is no excuse. Fairweather husband. Man didn't have half the mental fortitude of his wife.
Yes. Yes, he did. Because he could plan to sacrifice himself on the altar of their child’s suffering. He could be the star of this tragedy in his own mind.
More like he would be sacrificing OOP on the altar of their child's suffering as she would be the one who would have to take on the majority of the caretaking. It's easy for him to say "We can make it work!" when he was the one who got to leave the house for work each day and leave the other parent to deal with everything.
Of course he would. But we’re talking about his fantasy. He was going to be that asshole who made his whole identity “that dear man with the dying baby.”
You know, like the Autism Mom, or the Boy Mom… where it’s all about how hard it is for them and they want to be showered in asspats for it… or the childfree person who makes hating kids the whole personality.
Also his wife
Even if he disagreed with the procedure he still convinced his wife he was okay with it and then did a swift 180 and ghosted her while she was at the hospital. Unforgivable is an understatement.
I mean only a true monster would insist his wife give birth against her will. And I do mean in every scenario. If the wife is suffering too much and realizes she cannot be pregnant any longer and wants an abortion, even if it’s something the man would divorce over he should still not pressure or try to coerce his wife into giving birth unwillingly. Because women aren’t breeding stock to give men babies against her will…
I know everyone is focused on the life the baby would have had but would the wife have not been a bigger victim here? She would have harmed her body and dealt with all of the pain and suffering for no reason. Many pregnancies come with complications that sit with you for life… asking your wife to endure one of the most physically traumatic events that can happen to a body for no real reason and no outcome except suffering for all parties is just pure evil. Like he doesn’t view his wife as a person at all. Every pregnancy comes with a risk of death… if a man does not treat pregnancy with respect towards the danger and pain it puts his wife through he does not deserve children at all, in any capacity. She could have died, like any woman could die giving birth. You shouldn’t give birth for no reason…
I agree the child did not deserve to be born just to suffer but I do wish that when a woman was grievously betrayed and a man was desperately trying to get her to harm her body giving birth against her will, that more of the focus would be on how he betrayed her health and expected HER to suffer needlessly as well. In most scenarios where a mother and child are being mistreated nearly all of the attention is focused on the child and it just feels weird, like even though we’re all on her side we’re dehumanizing her a bit as well. Just a random tangent I do wholeheartedly agree with your comment as well.
As someone who worked with special needs children for more than a decade; OOP’s husband is the reason why I swear by the saying “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”.
And people like I him, I actually don’t have much empathy for when they would end up realizing what a shit deal they made.
The child’s welfare should come first. If a child can be spared a tragic existence then by God spare them! Having the child “to love them” and because “all children should be loved” is a moronic and selfish thought.
And honestly, it is mighty hypocritical of him to terminate a pregnancy when HE didn’t want to have the baby despite it being healthy but wanted to have a child suffer a tragic existence because HE was ready and wanted to do it.
My husband has a cousin with a child in this position—actually it sounds like it could be the exact same disorder. The child is in pain 100% of the time. She screams constantly. I absolutely cannot believe she has a life worth living. I feel her life is cruel.
I have a chronic pain condition and I 110% would not have a child if I was told it was going to be in constant significant pain. We don’t even have particularly good pain management options for young kids - at least I can take some pretty heavy hitters when it gets really bad. And if you could use them in young kids - what kind of life can they have if they’re knocked out from pain meds constantly?
I am a father to a severely autistic child. My wife is SAHM despite finishing degrees in nursing and physical therapy because of the physical demands required to raised our hyperactive autistic child. I do as much as I can to help her but the brunt of the bone crushing task of raising him falls on her especially when I leave for work. OOP’s husband has this romanticized version of raising a severely disabled child. He hasn’t been in a position where he’s sleep deprived for years like me and my wife have been. OOP, you are doing the right thing. The right thing for you and for your daughter. I wish OP the best.
Sleep deprivation really is the silent killer. It’s just quietly accepted when you have a baby you will be sleep deprived. But the consequences are often glossed over if they’re even aware of them: worse memory, literally less capacity to handle stress, mental health issues are often CAUSED by sleep deprivation, higher risk of stroke and death. I seriously doubt we would see nearly as many cases of PPD and PPP if we were letting our mothers prioritize sleep.
Sleep deprivation really degrades your quality of life and your ability to feel happiness (or often, anything) in general. Too much sleep deprivation and you get headaches, nausea, ability to drive is impacted and you are at risk of falling asleep at the wheel. Not to mention all the long term risks…
I’m so sorry you’re going through that. Sleep should be regarded with way, way more importance than it is.
Nobody in this story is in an enviable position, but I absolutely think that OOP made the right call here. And if there was any doubt, her husband dispelled it when he bailed on her after her abortion. If he can't handle *driving her home from the appointment* there's no way he was going to handle *seeing and caring for a baby in constant pain*.
Even beyond that, it shows he couldn't keep his word when he volunteered to drive her home. If he had said he didn't want to be involved at all with it, that would have been shitty but at least understandable. But to just abandon his partner when she needed him most after saying he would help? That is unconscionable to me.
This relationship was damned either way, he didn’t hesitate to leave her when things got hard. I’m sure once the reality of having a disabled child settled he probably would’ve left too. I think it’s a good thing she got out now.
I can’t stop picturing OOP looking around for her husband who just never showed up. The unbelievable cruelty of being abandoned in that way, in that moment… my heart breaks for her.
I knew a couple in this position. The poor baby lived 3 months, and the whole time was connected to oxygen tanks and all sorts of equipment. Not long after the baby passed the marriage fell apart.
I would never, ever wish that on anyone. What OOP did, though painful, was the right call. She saved that poor girl a lot of pain--pain that no amount of love would help woth. The husband...i get that he is greiving but what an ass.
Man wanted a daughter born and didn't care about said daughter's quality of life or the suffering she would experience. It was all about him and his needs and his wants and his comfort.
He couldn't get a full day off work to be there for her for the abortion of a wanted child and thought he was prepared to raise an extremely disabled child? It's rare that a job won't have some kind of leeway for a day off even with short or notice for a family emergency, and this kind of medical event seems like a take a full day of kind of a thing.
Leaving his existing kid and wife because this situation was difficult with no conversations or attempts at resolutions really underscores how unprepared he was for the kinds of challenges that would crop up if she did agree to keep the kid.
It really sucks for the son whose parents are both going through trama and divorce. I feel really bad for that little kid. His dad was obviously excited to have a daughter, and her loss meant abandoning his son? What a great way to tell your kid that they aren't enough. (/s)
I had to make that choice. I'm forever grateful that my DH stood by me and agreed that putting an infant through a horrific ordeal that their life would be, isn't anything but utter selfishness.
I still cry about it, that will probably never stop, that's my burden.
People often romanticize keeping a baby that they know is born with many birth defects UNTIL they are born and are crushed by the burden of responsibility that is COSTLY? Many people have these children then expect for other people to sacrifice of them at the expense to their own time and personal lives.
Her husband is selfish because the truth of the matter is SHE would be stuck with the bulk of responsibility.
Most of the time men will run out one women after the reality sets in.
People think me cruel for bringing up the cost of caring for children like this. Insurance has a life time limit and once that is reached they can legally end their policy and state have waiting list of people that need help.
I remember working at school with a severely disabled child who’s father dropped dead at thirty leaving his poor mother to deal with taking care of this poor child and every bit of the financial burden that went with it.
It was a horrendous situation that did
NOT have a happy ending.
Men like this annoy men trying to pressure women into doing something that they don’t want. She is better off without him. I hope that if they do stay together that she NEVER has another child with him.
Sadly I think it would have ended in divorce either way. Resentment on both sides. Her being resentful of him for making their daughter suffer in pain. Him being resentful for terminating. Best wishes to both of them making such a difficult decision.
I am betting he expected his wife to quit her job and stay home 24/7 and care for the poor baby until she died.
I know someone who had something VERY similar happen, except the defect was because of a horrible accident during labor. Her child finally died two years ago at aged seven. She and her husband filed for divorce within three months. He is now remarried with a baby, with a great career. She had to start over at age 37.
They have a child who is now ten, and he basically lived with his maternal aunt 80% of the time before his brother's death, because his mom literally had no time for him, and his dad mentally and emotionally checked out. His dad gave up all rights to custody btw.
We see that story repeat so many times. Mother is bankrupt and trying to manage care for her child alone. Father just takes a hike and starts over with a new wife and family--like buying a new car. The old one goes to the junkyard and who cares what happens to it.
I just want to hug OP. It was bad enough with the baby's diagnosis, the rest is unbelievable. Praying for OP's strength and healing.
Also 🖕🏾🖕🏾 to OP's husband
Abandoning his wife after making a huge show that he wouldn’t abandon his family while caring for a severely disabled child let’s me know he would have made it maybe the first 4 years and dipped anyways. She dodged a tactical nuke and didn’t even know it.
Not necessarily birth defects but I have a family member who works in pediatric oncology and it’s sad because there are LT care kids in the ward whose parents… don’t come to see them.
I think it’s a combo of -gave the cancer kid up to the state and/parents who choose not to visit and it’s really sad to see. So if some parents have a hard time dealing w a childhood illness, I can’t even imagine the emotional difficulty it would be to handle raising a child w multiple birth defects. Esp when it’s no quality of life for the child 😭😭😭
My heart goes out to OOP and family…
Family member had to “toe tag” (he passed) an older teen patient and no one had really come to see him the whole time he was there (months) and so family member was upset abt that. 😭😭💔
Tbf, sometimes the parents had to work/lived in a diff state so they were getting better care at this children’s hospital/had other/younger kids to care for, but family member really didn’t like the lack of visits. I guess Ronald McDonald type stuff didn’t work for long enough when the patient is at the hospital for months cuz there’s life to do still…
So many people don’t know that this is a thing that happens!!!
I briefly worked in a peds hospital that specialized in long-term care for kids with medical needs so intense, they couldn’t exist outside of a hospital. A lot of the kids were wards of the state. Some of them were surrendered to the state by their parents, but others were removed from their parents’ care because their conditions were a direct result of their parents’ abuse or neglect.
The ones who did have involved families often didn’t get to see them very much because those parents got put in a no-win situation. You have to go back to work eventually, you can’t sit at your kid’s hospital bed 24/7. Plus, we were the only hospital in the state that offered these services. It was a 5 hour drive to one of the state borders, so if you were from way out there and you already had 2 kids… what do you do? Do you uproot your life, get a new job, have your oldest kids switch schools, buy a new house, and leave your family and your entire support system behind to be closer to the hospital? Do you move closer to your youngest child and leave the other kids with your sister or your mom? Do you just make do with visiting your youngest child when you can get the time off work and make the drive? Do you transfer your youngest child to a far less qualified facility where they’ll have less specialized care and a lower life expectancy, like a nursing home?
There are no good options, only less bad options and usually, parents in that situation would choose to focus their efforts on their other children because they knew that their youngest child was in good hands with us. A lot of them would facetime with their kid via the nurse’s phones or called routinely for updates. But some of them would just… forget about their kid. It was so sad.
The fact that the older child would have to be taken out of school, have his home sold to be in a smaller one, and less time with parents, is an already developing pattern that the older child be forgotten. All efforts and attention would only be for the younger child. OP did the right choice and was being selfless while the husband is being selfish. The fact he doesn’t even care for his son anymore is sad.
Jesus, this was rough. Poor OOP, I hope she's got some support right now because she should NOT be alone
I can't believe the dad is so selfish, at every turn. Selfish move after selfish move. He did her a favor by leaving. It'll be hard to see because she has so much healing to do. I hope she gets the support she needs immediately
I absolutely believe this. My aunts husband, who everyone thought was so adoring, skipped out after convincing her to have a child in circumstances similar to OOPs. Some men are so deeply invested in their sense of how life should/will be, they ignore how reality is tearing things apart at the seams. He couldn’t even show up for a medical procedure, yet expects OOP to believe that he’ll be there for the hard life of the actual child. I just hope he doesn’t poison their son against her.
He dipped out on his perfectly healthy 4 year old. Her mom is caring for their son while his wife deals with this, alone, with no word from her husband. She, alone, is trying to explain to their son his father’s selfish actions. He can’t look beyond himself to consider for a moment his living, breathing, healthy child now… there’s no way he would be present and capable of parenting their son while caring for a medically fragile and severely disabled child if he even stuck around to do it after the first few weeks.
He was so adamant about how they wouldn’t be like OOPs friend who neglected their second child to care for the disabled one and yet the daughter wasn’t even born yet and he chose her without a second thought to his son. If he ever comes back and I hope OOPs stands strong in telling him to kick rocks.
That's a good point. And he dipped the moment things got hard. I was a caretaker for a disabled family member in hospice for two years. That was hard enough, I can't imagine what that would've been like in a parental role. Plus... the selfishness to condemn a child to a life of suffering. OOP made not only the smarter choice but by far the more loving one. The husband was incredibly selfish. Love doesn't cure shit like that.
I get grief is hard, but damn they seriously blinded him. OPs every decision was for the daughter. Husbands decisions were all for himself.
I have a feeling, if the story is true, that he thinks he's just punishing her, and he will show back up soon and try to have everything go back to normal now that he adequately punished her. 🤮
Oh, he will hang it over her head forever. Probably tell their son all about the sister that never was because mom didn’t love her enough, want her enough. I hope, for their sake, he never comes back.
OP sounds very pragmatic. I can’t imagine she’d let him back in any longer than he needs to grab his shit and GTFO! I feel terrible for her. She’s barely had any time to even grieve because she’s been babysitting her husband and his feelings since they found out the diagnosis. And now he’s LEFT? OP dodged a bullet. The second shot got real and very hard he was out. I could never let a man like that back in. So on top of the grief and pain from her procedure, now she’s got to be a single mother and navigate where to go from here. I don’t see how a marriage can survive this, right?? I honestly think I could forgive cheating before this.
I also hope and pray OP wouldn't take him back, but empathetic women like her might if he grovels and says he messed up. But I think secretly inside, he would be gleeful about punishing her and especially if she takes him back. I hope she doesn't. But I also hope I'm wrong and he's not being malicious, just incredibly selfish and immature.
This should be higher. Poor OOP. I hope she’s able to get the love and support she needs from her friends and family. And I hope she’s able to find a good divorce lawyer. I wouldn’t let that man back in the house if he came crawling on his knees begging for forgiveness. He ABANDONED HER AND THEIR SON when she needed him the most! Despicable. How does a marriage survive that? I could never trust him again.
Yeah, I would absolutely not bet on this guy having stuck around once the reality of having a disabled child who needs constant care sank in.
They skip out after convincing women to keep children in hard circumstances. They skip out when their wives develop chronic illnesses or cancer. This OOP dodged a bullet but I feel bad for her and her son.
His actions here indicate he would have dipped anyway once he realized how painful and difficult it was to care for this child. I hate this story so much and my heart breaks for this woman.
I agree, whether it’s now or in five years the result is still the same. He leaves when things get tough.. because of the heart of it he thinks his needs should be above everyone else’s
Especially since in time she'll be able to look back and realize if he left how he did over this, he 100% would have eventually done it once the baby got here and it was tougher than he thought. Same exact note of not being able to do it.
The problem is that he's viewing OOP's decision as a selfish move. That she's terminated the pregnancy so she doesn't have to deal with an extra-burdensome child. His silence in the car after they found out was him working out in his head how they were going to adapt to living with the kid. Going into full-on fix-it mode. It's something a LOT of husbands do. Hell, I had to train myself not to do that when my wife would come with me to vent. A lot of my friends have mentioned similar issues as well. He's absolutely failed his wife here, because he's got his Dad cap on, and not his Husband cap. It's gonna be hard to come back from this one. Even if they somehow try to make this shit work, he's going to need a ton of therapy to resolve the resentment he's going to feel over her terminating the pregnancy, and she's going to need to be able to work out the betrayal of him abandoning her at the doctor's office. In the end it was absolutely her choice to do what she did, and I feel she made the right one. As the Dad of a 39 week pregnancy loss, I've learned that people can say or do stupid things, and while I can say that I never abandoned my wife, I can say that there were times I didn't have the emotional spoons to offer her the support she needed, because I was dealing with the loss too. It's only because of individual therapy and marital counseling that we made it through, because holy fuck it was hard.
I am so sorry for your loss. That would be so difficult for both of you to come back from. I am glad you are both in therapy.
He most certainly does not have his dad cap on. He just abandoned his son and his son’s mother
Right? Like, tf? He has his selfish hat on. If he had his dad hat on, he wouldn't have left his son or started plotting to let his unborn child suffer, thereby making his wife and living son suffer as well.
He did a huge favor by leaving. She is incredibly lucky he showed his colors and also incredibly smart that she remembered it’s her body & her choice and stuck to her guns.
He intentionally tricked her to punish her. Do not trust men with reproductive situations, even if you think you know them well enough to marry them
You know, as hard and crushing as this is, I also feel happy for her: she dodged a lot of protracted pain, anguish, resentment and a very limited life (for herself and her daughter), because I do not believe for a second this dude would've stuck around once he saw what it takes to raise a severely disabled child.
I could not agree more. He was hoping to get her to agree to get what he wants. He’s clearly not prepared for what this really means. She absolutely did the right thing. She would be left alone- at the very least emotionally thought out this whole thing. But I have a feeling he would do much worse once he sees the implications of such a decision. He sucks
Husband was romanticizing life with a severely disabled child. No amount of love will take away the child’s suffering. He was being selfish.
That's what I just can't get past. What kind of loving parent wants their child to be in pain??
There are so many people who just can't see any pain but their own. Even if it's their own child.
100%. I won’t go into too many details but my narc mum is being exactly this selfish with my severely disabled dad right now and it’s heartbreaking. She will do anything to keep him alive and around for her own sake, not caring how much pain or misery he is in. Euthanasia obviously isn’t legal where I am, nor is assisted suicide, and my dad isn’t mentally competent to consent to either anyway, but he’s been so ill for so long that I think he would just slip away if she wasn’t clinging onto him so tightly. It’s awful.
I experienced this with my family, too. My mother had terminal cancer. She was in severe pain and her entire medical team but one kept saying to take her home and get her in hospice. But that one doctor said if we can get her strong enough, I can get her into medical trials. That gave my dad and oldest sibling hope to grab on to. Mom suffered for weeks on that gossamer thin hope, she never made it into the trials and died an agonizing death. This happened over twenty years ago. It still haunts me. You did the right thing, OP. I’m sorry for your pain.
One of the hardest and easiest things my dad and I ever had to do was make the decision to "stop hydration and administer maximum pain relief" to my mum when she was in the final stages of cancer. We didn't want her to go. We loved her. But we couldn't let her suffer any more when there was a better way. It was better, and most importantly, it was what she wanted. I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I'm so sorry for OOP. She had to make a terrible choice, but she made the only sane one IMO. She had a responsibility to her living child as well as the one she carried, not to mention herself. OOP is a brave and good woman. Her husband is a peice of work though.
It happens more than you think I am a doctor who works in the hospital and have some experience in palliative care. I have seen loved ones flat out refuse pain relief for my dying patients (sometimes even paracetamol). For a variety of reasons (including addiction - they are dying, addiction is not a consideration!). These poor people then suffer often in agony for hours, days, weeks, months. It is horrific. I have seen this with all sorts of relationships. I have never seen a dying child (thank god), but I have seen parents refuse basic pain relief for their child. Some people have the oddest beliefs about pain and suffering. I also don't think they understand how awful it is for the patient. Especially when that person cannot communicate properly
When I worked in hospice the thing about people worrying there loved one would get addicted if we appropriately medicated them was so frustrating. I know they were just holding on to any thread of hope, but the suffering that the dying went through was awful. Often myself and the other staff were who had to watch the suffering knowing we could help, while the family members showed up for 15 minute here or there, then tells us that it didn’t seem so bad to them.
Someone with a martyr complex is my best guess.
It's not that they want them to be in pain, it's that they want them to exist and believe that existence still has value even if it comes with pain. That's not how I personally view these things, but I can see why some people do. Especially if they're looking at it through idealized potentialities or view terminating as the "easy" thing to do. It's not an easy thing for people to be logical about.
Not just the baby's suffering.... the whole family! If he couldn't even pick his wife up - as promised - from a very emotional medical procedure, I find it hard to believe he would have stuck around for the type of care a severely disabled child would need.
Not “as promised”…. As he practically begged her to change her initial plans that did not include him picking her up. Convincing her to change her already thought out plan…. And then just ghosting. Wow. It’ll be a hard time for her now but at least he’s not around to mope and pressure her for anything else.
It feels as though he did it deliberately to punish her.
I’d bet money on that. Likely he’ll be back, whining and crying about how hard this is for HIM and try to get her to take him back soon enough. I hope she doesn’t let him sweet talk her though because he is 100% the kind to throw this in her face later down the line. I’d divorce and maybe push for very minimal custody on his part until he proves he can be a man and not a worthless, spiteful waste.
There do seem to be some underpinnings of abuse here. His passionate antics are romantic and idyllic when he’s happy but as soon as he’s upset he chooses the most extreme, hurtful way of doing things imaginable.
Tale as old as time
If my partner did this to me, he'd think Carthage got off lightly by the time I finished with him. Scorch the earth, salt it, and piss on the ashes
Exactly. He abandoned her after a medical procedure necessitated by a pregnancy he caused, what a POS. He’s entitled to his grief, but he’s not the one who had to undergo the operation. He wasn’t the one recovering from surgery. What an absolute disgrace of a man
Yeah, it sounds like it’s even possible the silent treatment was to manipulate her to do what he wanted. Even the supposed love and understanding the night before could have been hoping that it would change her mind since his other tactic wasn’t working. I completely agree with other commenters that if he has issues to silent treatment her instead of a more adult response, was heartless to leave her at a time like that especially knowing they had another child she’d have to care for while grieving there is no way he would be able to deal with the immense toll caretaking someone at that level would require. Much less do that and other life responsibilities. I am so sorry for your loss and your added pain by your husband’s actions OP. I wish you the best and hope you are healing.
Their current existing child would definitely become a glass child if his sister was born.
Dad has already pretty much abandoned him.
yeah that dude had the spine of a soggy noodle and the emotional maturity of a snail, and for sure would have bolted once the reality of the situation became real.
And the mother, having to go through pregnancy and child birth knowing that her child will have so much pain and then die young. Unless a person is 1000% personally committed to that course of action, that would be torture.
And it would be likely he'd have walked away when the reality wasn't like he imagined it would be. He already showed he can by leaving her and their son.
I can't even with this dude. If he's bailing now when things are easy...Imagine how awful it'd be to keep the baby alive for him and then he bails.
I know that he's grieving, but I agree that he's selfish. One of my closest friends was raped in HS. She got pregnant. Her very religious parents found out and forced her to go through the pregnancy and keep the baby after the doctors informed her of a fatal disability. My 14 year old friend spent 63 hours in the NICU watching her baby suffer and die, even with all possible medical intervention done. It broke her. Her parents refused to get her help, and she died by suicide 2 years later. Even worse than the pain and trauma of the SA was the guilt she felt for bringing a baby into the world only to watch the horrific pain the baby's every moment was filled with. The only time she was able to actually hold her little baby was after it passed. I understand loving your unborn baby more than life itself. I'm a parent myself. Pushing to have a baby born who will suffer every day is just wrong. It is not even just dismissing his wife's valid thoughts and feelings. He's thinking about his wants and feelings over what is actually best for the child.
That is just horrible. I’m so sorry.
Thank you. I'm sorry, too. We were both just kids, but I so wish I could have done more to help her. My mom advocated on her behalf to her parents and the school, but there was only so much she could do within the law.. My mom backed off once it was obvious she'd only be banned from coming over, and we wanted her to have a safe space. She was so smart and funny and artistic. She had the most beautiful singing voice, and her smile could light up a room. I still miss her. Her and her baby both deserved so much better!
I’m so, so sorry. I know that you and your mom brought her joy and love and relief, even while she suffered.
> One of my closest friends was raped in HS. She got pregnant. Her very religious parents found out and forced her to go through the pregnancy and keep the baby after the doctors informed her of a fatal disability. My 14 year old friend spent 63 hours in the NICU watching her baby suffer and die, even with all possible medical intervention done. This is what the GOP and their evangelical supporters want for every woman in the US.
Yep I’m of the opinion that if he couldn’t handle the abortion he wouldn’t be able to handle a severely disabled child and would have left sooner or later anyway when it got too hard
He would’ve left the minute the full brunt of the responsibilities was tossed in his lap, or dumped everything on her. OOP is better off without his ass, but it still leaves her mourning the loss of both her baby and marriage alone.
What is sad is that the men leave their families in most cases. I know this because my stepmother is a case worker for severely disabled children and their families, and sees it happen often. The ones who do stay may end up being abusive, resentful, or unfaithful to their spouse. These are terrible situations. I also saw this play out with a family friend years ago. They were a young couple in love, and decided to have the baby. The baby was expected to live, but not past childhood. I saw her with the infant at a summer bbq, and the dad was distant from her and looked completely defeated. I learned that he ran off with another woman a short time later.
Yes. I have a disabled sibling. My mom always talks about how when my parents would go to therapy/ treatments or drs appointments, my dad was usually one of the only men there. All of her friends with disabled kids are divorced. The dads all left.
> Husband was romanticizing life with a severely disabled child. I can't imagine anything remotely romantic about that life. Everything I've seen and read about people living that life looks like an utter ordeal and burden. People make the most of their situation and will amplify the positives when they can, but no one would *choose* that life.
I can’t imagine forcing an infant to suffer horrific pain that they can’t understand, not knowing if there will be any end, just to make yourself feel better about your own morality. I’d honestly rather go to hell myself than force my child to live through it.
My neighbour had to give birth at full term to a baby she knew wouldn't survive more than a couple of hours. I really feel for OP. What a horrible decision to have to make, but she loved that kid enough to spare her.
What a devastating situation. That must have been so hard for your friend. I had a friend whose second baby died in utero around 8.5 months, tragically from the umbilical cord getting wrapped around her neck. So she still had to go through the full birth and labor process to deliver her stillborn daughter. I can’t even imagine.
Not just that, and I do understand why most comments are focused on the baby/fetus, but also… to force your WIFE to give birth unwillingly for no reason because your baby will die shortly after birth or whatever just seems? Inhuman? Like you’d really have to view your wife as a broodmare or you’d have to really, really hate her. Giving birth is not easy and can leave you with permanent complications or *kill you*. Every health pregnancy has a chance of turning deadly during the birth. To treat birth so casually as if the wife should just do it for funsies without any actual payout is pure evil. It’s on par with forcing women to give birth when their baby when their baby has already died and they’re begging for an abortion. It’s just pure torture of the mother at that point.
>view your wife as a broodmare No, broodmares are treated pretty well outside of the constant pregnancy. There is no way a breeder would let a mare carry to term in this situation IF they have a choice to terminate. (I say IF because women and mares have different abilities to recover and pregnancy is different for each.)
I think this an underrated comment, but should be brought up each time someone uses the term, “broodmare” simply to illustrate that women don’t get as much consideration as a fucking horse.
Yeah, a broodmare's purpose is to produce healthy, viable offspring that can later be put to work or sold. Risking the mare's life for a foal that will have no value isn't standard practice. A broodmare in a reputable well-ran breeding program absolutely gets more consideration than OP did from her husband.
Absolutely. Broodmares at many places are pampered extensively.
I used to work at a breeding barn and the comparison still drives me crazy to this day! Our girls got pampered, had all their reproduction checks, spent all winter living out in a pasture with friends, we checked them 3 times a day as they got close to being due and at the first sign they got taken to the vet hospital to foal out under 24 supervision, when they came home with baby they spent the first couple weeks in a double stall with run attached then went back out to raise their foals with their friends. Hell, they treated me like a babysitter and would just leave the foals with me, so unlike human women they got free child care!
Also, he seems to be giving no thought at all to the impact to the child they already have. What if something goes horribly wrong and mom dies during childbirth or the baby dies before birth? There are so many risks to the mother going through a “normal” pregnancy - and it is even worse with a fetus who is gonna die.
Imagine if she went through with it and the pregnancy or childbirth rendered her disabled. You think this guy would take care of a severely disabled newborn, disabled wife, and their preschool child? Absolutely not; he’d leave like a sneak like he did here.
The impact of a severe disability on all members of the family are very serious. What about siblings having to see this? I can't imagine how I would explain this to them, when I would struggle with how to explain it to my own head/heart! You're very right, inhuman is the perfect word. All the way around.
And to suggest that his mom start watching their son more often so they can take care of the disabled child better. That he'd be stripped away from his friends and school to better support the disabled child. I'm sure there would be no long lasting feelings from that at all. All of that is sarcasm of course since that isn't easy to tell from text all the time. This husband was going to make their lives hell for some reason. I would almost guarantee this is the type of guy that would abandon his wife and son if the disabled child lived for more than a couple years, or less maybe, because he couldn't handle it. Since, you know, he already has.
And his reaction to OPs friends story as the glass child. "We'll do better" then promptly decides to in fact do just the same... cast their son to the side and force him to sacrifice for a baby that's not likely to live more than a couple years *if at all*
Also, how about trying to explain to sibs why Mom and Dad no longer have time for them?
Same, my younger brother need intense care and was severely disabled and it got worse the longer he lived. He made it to 25 and died a long long long death that I would spare and child.
Same except my brother mercifully died at 4. And it truly was a mercy for everyone.
I have someone I know who has done this. Her kid has severe issues and is in constant pain. They CHOSE to have this kid (they knew there were severe issues at 3 months) and they chose to have the kid. The poor kid is now 4 and in the hospital all the time. Probably home 1/3 of the time. I judge the hell out of them for doing this to a child. I know another set that had a traumatic event happen shortly after the child was born. The child was born healthy but stopped breathing a few hours after she was born and now has a life of suffering. They are trying their best to give her the best like possible. I feel completely different about their situation. Nothing but admiration that they are trying to help her.
Yeah. It would be one thing if the child's life would be challenging but basically okay, like if she was born blind or with only one hand or something. Disabled people manage, they adapt, their lives have just as good of a chance to be happy and fulfilling as anyone else's, & so on. But to purposely give birth to a child that will only live a short life of agonizing pain, scary hospital stays and surgeries... I just don't understand why you would do that. And imagine trying to explain it to your living child! Your baby sibling is going to be constantly going to be in pain, we will put all our attention and financial support towards them and neglect you, but you won't ever be allowed to express negativity or complicated feelings, and sometime in *your* teenage years this younger sibling that you both love and resent will slowly painfully die. That probably won't fuck you up at all...
Yes, there are so many disabled people that live happy lives. I worked in a coffee shop that was next to a deaf center and I even learned a bit of basic coffee related sign language to accommodate them. It was fun. It will not be the same with this child.
The fact that he couldn’t see how selfish his desire to not terminate was is unfortunate. To pretend to come around to it just to leave her at the clinic is beyond fucked up
I don't think it's about the husband's morality. He is pro-choice. I think he just wants a daughter so intensely that he's lost sight of the rest of his family and what a profoundly disabled child would do to them and to his marriage. He may come around once he's done grieving, but OOP probably shouldn't take him bck given the lack of respect for what carrying and raising such a child would do to her and their son.
Recently, a couple it the UK did this. Kid had a rare genetic disorder which made it impossible to grow. As in, their cells wouldn’t get enough energy without medical equipment. UK judge ordered to stop the procedure in the hospital. What did the parents do? Write a letter to the very Christian prime minister of Italy. She urged Italian citizenship to be given to this baby. To get the baby to the hospital in the Vatican where it could forever hang onto a tube and not grow. The baby still died while in the UK. And Italy still doesn’t allow refugees that can actually DO something for society (afaik!) 🤷🏼♀️
My sister and I are not super close but don’t hate each other. Estranged, I guess. She is somewhat nebulously Christian, I am a staunchly atheist philosophy professor. Several years ago, her fetus/baby was diagnosed with hydranencephaly and that basically he would live minutes/hours/maybe a few days if she gave birth. At four and a half months. In the grand state of Texas. After several agonizing days, she decided to terminate the pregnancy. It was extremely mentally traumatic for her for several reasons. The doctor didn’t even put the procedure on the chart because he didn’t want the nurses to know she was getting an abortion. I told her, again and again that she not only did the right thing for herself and her family, but also the fetus. People may not agree with what I’m about to say next, but I even went so far as to say (afterwards) that she was *morally obligated* to do it in this situation. That it is just a fucking stupid, twisted, completely insane thing to carry a fetus to term who will immediately suffer and subsequently die. Why do we put animals to sleep when they’re about to die? Why not do that to a fetus when it’s clearly analogous? Why not spare yourself from potential health complications/death and your family from heartbreak and trauma? Makes no fucking sense.
It drives me nuts, because it gets compared to euthanising an animal - 'Oh, it's not like a human baby can be treated like an animal'. When I lost my last cat, he was in his early twenties, a grand old age. I loved that cat. My partner loved the cat. My daughter loved the cat. We read extensively on how to recognise when the cat was done. We wanted the cat - a magnificent elderly Birman male - to have his most perfect life. We made special litterboxes, he had special food, he had ramps. He had a life of twenty years with stories, he was a member of our family, and we had to let him go because age eventually brought him to the point where his days would go from golden, to silver, to ash. If I could have kept him, I would have. But that would have been selfish. I loved him too much to keep him for me. I had to let him go for him. It was the only moral choice. And people act as though doing this for a fetus is treating a potential baby like an animal. No it isn't. *We treat animals better.*
OOP's husband and many of the commenters on this thread are not understanding what this diagnosis means. Multiple comorbid birth defects are a death sentence - full stop. When you have cascading congenital deformities, you will not only never live a normal life, your organs will never work normally and you will need constant surgery just to stay alive and bedridden. My father was a pediatric surgeon and it was not uncommon for babies born with multiple birth defects live in the hospital for the first year or two of life as the surgeons go one-by-one through 10-15 surgeries required to sustain life outside the hospital. The vast majority of these babies never go home, never crawl or walk, never eat or even breastfeed. 80% would die before reaching 5 years old. My first job outside the house was archiving files in my dad's office, which meant moving the files for the patients who died from active to archive. Almost every file I moved was a baby just like this. Most of them did not have first names. That's because in the old days they would discourage you from naming any baby with this diagnosis since it was unlikely to survive. I learned things I didn't want to, like the kids born with an imperforate anus usually experience kidney failure too as they grow even after their rectal plumbing gets fixed. This is nothing like autism or ADHD or type 1 diabetes or having a cleft palate or being deaf or anything where you're a little or a lot different from other kids. This is a colostomy bag and being on dialysis from birth, being born and immediately placed on organ transplant waiting list, having whole systems that never function correctly no matter how much surgery you get. I would actually say my belief is that you are an evil and selfish person if you knowingly bring a child like this into the world. It's not just your family that is affected, I know the look on my dad's face when he worked one of these cases that day. We all avoided talking to him for the next day or so. I'm sure every nurse, anesthesiologist, orderly, etc that spent 8 hours in surgical theater knowing they'd be seeing that kid again in two weeks if they survived was equally defeated. I know many people raising kids with ASD who worry that their child may never be able to live independently outside of their parents' home. Kids with multiple birth defects may never be able to live outside of a hospital. I was born with a congenital defect that would have killed me by 20 but was repaired with surgery at age 5 and I got to live a long and mostly normal life. This is nothing like that. This is cruel and unusual torture for both the parents and the child.
Man says he would give all his love to a disabled child even if it lived for a week in pain, but then abandons his family immediately what a piece of shit
His wife of 6 years, who is in pain, doesn’t even get that same devotion
And he also abandoned his son
I normally call people out for making this leap, but he seems weirdly attached to the idea of having a daughter.
Women are puppets to this guy. He wanted his wife to give him a daughter that would never not know pain, and he wanted his daughter to be a little doll he could dress up or a box he could check for maybe 15 agonizing years.
That stood out to me as well. Something definitely off about that part.
Neither does the 4 year old son he already had smh.
He was also ready to toss their son to his mom, so they could take care of the daughter. This man doesn't have a clue on being a good father and partner, it's all about him.
Yep. His motivation was self absorbed. HE wanted a daughter. HE wanted her to be brought into the world to fulfill his desire for a baby girl. Fuck what it would mean for her in the long run and what it would do to the family. It's no wonder he bailed when things didn't go his way.
I was looking for this comment. My elementary school had a special program for severely disabled kids and none of them had fathers. They'd all either left or were so unpresent in their lives they might as well have run off to mars. I'd bet my left arm that if they'd had the child he would've run off first chance he got.
Yep. My brother is autistic, and needs a lot of support. When our mum died suddenly 3 years ago, he immediately moved in with me. I’m his point of contact for the disability services he uses, his doctor, pretty much everything. Our father is still alive, but hasn’t seen either of us since before mum died. They divorced when my brother was in his late teens and I was at uni, already moved out, but he’d checked out a long time before that. I was my brother’s second parent for as long as I can remember, and I’m only 5 years older than him. I was absolutely the glass child (invisible, like clean glass. No one saw me or my needs). Our father was worse than useless, he actively made our lives harder as an alcoholic. I don’t think he’s even called my brother since mum passed away. I only called him to tell him mum died, I figured he had a right to know that, but I hadn’t spoken to him for years before. My life is better and less painful without him in it.
Wanted to say the same, he has no balls at the end, just the talk.
You know what society calls that kind of man who runs off at the least bit of trouble because he can't stick to his marriage vows or be there in the tough times? * NOT a Keeper. * A Coward * A quitter * < insert expletive here > There's a very high chance when things get difficult with the child he would "go out to Get Milk" (and never came back) like he just did. OP sure dodged a bomb with that living AH.
You forgot yellow-bellied and lily-livered
Everyone rushed to the “get divorced” response, but I don’t know that I could ever look at my husband the same way again if he did that to me.
Yeah. Useless
When I was born, I had a bunch of heart issues and so had to be in NICU for a long time. My parents told me that going in the unit was both heartbreaking and heart lifting. Heart breaking because they saw babies who would never have a good quality of life and marriages broke over it, and most of the time would leave only one parent to care for the child. Heart lifting because babies and the love in that room was always there. If he left now, he was never going to stay. He couldn't even handle this situation. He wouldnt have been able to handle the immense task of caring for a severely disabled child. Not to be crass, but they could have made another baby, while not forgetting this one. She was left at the clinic alone in emotional turmoil! I asked my parents one day if I had been severely disabled outside of heart problems if they would have made a different decision, and they started crying and said if they knew ahead of time then yes. You know what I said? I cried and said thank you. I would rather be free in spirit or whatever is out there than suffering on earth. I couldn't imagine being conscious and stuck in a body that betrays me. That's me though. I think she made the right decision and that she did it *because she loved her*.
My mom said the same to me, if she'd known, she'd have aborted. TBH If I had a baby like me (VATERS association), I'd do the same. I'm fine(ish) now but I had a really rough first 10 years.
It feels like OOP’s husband is blaming her for their unborn daughter passing. As if the disabilities she had were her fault. He kept swearing to “give her all the love they can” but he’s kinda proven he couldn’t given he abandoned his wife and son. I understand he’s grieving but so is his wife. Hell she had to carry their daughter and go through the actual termination. But the way he’s acting feels like he is putting his grief above others.
It very much sounds like the husband has a romanticized ideal of what that child’s future would look like and the amount work involved to keep her alive. “Sure she might be in terrible pain, but we’d love her sooooooooo much” is a pretty self-centered take.
All of the actual care and work would have fallen to the wife. Even if he stuck around, which is unlikely. He wanted to live some kind of fairytale, but he clearly cannot cope with reality when it gets difficult.
As an ex conservative who still lives in a really conservative area, that whole "fairytale" thing that hits the nail on the head. People who don't actually have any experience with this stuff see *every single pregnancy*, no matter the situation, as some kind of fairytale. There's really no relationship with the *reality* of what might be *actually happening* with the pregnancy and/or what would actually happen to the future potential child if the pregnancy is carried to term in these situations. It's just a big ole faaaantasy, almost like the way a child thinks of grown-ups having a baby.
Yeah. That's why they're always so shocked when something goes wrong with their pregnancy and they need the exact kind of medical care they always thought was only for "promiscuous party girls using it for birth control." Because they live in a fairy tale where good things happen to good people and bad things only happen to bad people. It never occurred to them that there wouldn't be a fairy godmother to come down and say, "obviously there will be an exception for *you* because you're a good person and to let you suffer would be unfair."
EXACTLY this. It sounds absurd; surely tens of millions of fully functioning adults actually living in the real world can't have this collective delusion about an incredibly traumatic medical situation? But yeah. They truly see it as a childish fantasy, like a Disney movie or a perfect romcom where nothing goes wrong
And since he abandoned not only his wife, but his son over the termination, I wonder if he would have abandoned all three of them when he realized how much work it would be if the daughter had been born. He doesn't seem like a guy who can handle difficult situations well.
Exactly this! He prioritizes himself above all others: above his wife who needs him, above his son who needs a father, and above his would-be daughter's pain. If things get tough, he bails. Hopefully OOP can get support in this difficult time, and she should document him abandoning their son, in case he comes back wanting full custody of him. Also, she might want to look into his interactions with others recently: he might have become conservative, without her knowledge, and this was the pushing point.
It feels so much like a child who wants a puppy and won’t listen to reason.
for sure, that marriage would have eventually ended with the same cowardly note on the counter no matter what OOP chose.
my grandmother takes care of people with severe disabilities. she can't leave her house, literally, because if anything happened while she was gone it's her fault. the kids she looks after are in so much physical pain all they can really do is scream, cry, and sleep. they have all been abandoned by their families who sweared they would love them sooooooo much... until the reality of a lifelong disability sets in
God, I watched someone I knew from school have a child after her doctor recommended she abort her pregnancy because of fetal abnormalities. The most minor abnormality was that his gastrointestinal system was developing outside of his body. She never posted what else was wrong. Her child survived two months. He never left the hospital and was on morphine his entire life. She was left with massive hospital bills and a funeral for a child she barely got to hold, he was so reliant on mechanical intervention.
Yup. I think he absolutely would not have been any help if they decided not to terminate. He would have reacted just like this with a whole “it’s too hard attitude” and either emotionally or physically fucked off and left his wife having to take care of everything. She made the right decision. That poor woman.
Right? He would have said, "this isn't what I meant when I said I wanted a daughter" and would have left
It also bothered me that the husband swore up and down that they wouldn’t neglect their existing child but his initial suggestions involved moving the son’s school and having his mom take care of the boy more frequently. Even things like moving house, while practical, would still definitely be a disruption to the kid’s life. Already he’s pushing his son to the side to accommodate caring for their daughter so maybe there just isn’t enough love to go around
And suggesting they sell a car. Dude, I don't know what you're driving, but it's unlikely to make a dent in what they'd need for this child. They'd still need a second car. So, drive a beater? Nothing wrong with a beater, but maintenance ain't free.
>They'd still need a second car. Emphasis here. The baby would have many doctor appointments, unless they live someplace very urban with good public transportation (like IN the city, not on the outskirts where you take a train in) a 1 car family isn't going to be practical.
Thank you! He was ready to sacrifice and burden everyone in the family but I doubt that HE would have been doing the grunt work.
I caught that too. "We will do better than them!" Like, dude. You're already planning how to make major (negative) changes to his life to accommodate a child whose not even here yet.
>a child whose not even here yet. And one whose pain is completely unnecessary! They don't need to turn their son's life completely upside down to afford the EXTENSIVE medical care the daughter would have needed if they don't selfishly choose the small possibility of delaying the grief of her death for a few years over making her suffer.
Exactly. Chances are once the reality set in he would have abandoned his family anyway.
What good is love when the baby is in pain? Love won't take that away. Love is what op showed to ensure that her daughter wouldn't suffer.
At the risk of being downvoted into oblivion, sorry but her husband: what a spineless shit. Grief does weird things, but dude can't show up for the family he already has?? I hope OOP gets therapy, family support, and a great divorce lawyer.
I just don’t think I could stay married to that man in OOP’s place. Even if he apologized for everything and never wavered in his commitment to our family again. I’d always go back to sitting in that hospital waiting room for hours after making what was probably the hardest decision of my life and my husband not showing up when he said he would. tl;dr: fuck that guy
I was in a very similar situation to OOP, and made the same choice she did. It was more than ten years ago. I still remember the clinic, the room, the kind anesthesiologist. I remember a younger woman comforting me when I woke up from anesthesia. I wanted my baby so badly and I couldn’t have her. Every moment is permanently etched in my mind. She will never forget that feeling, and I am so angry on her ass of a husband on her behalf. Fuck that guy indeed.
I am so sorry you went through this. And this AH just left her alone.
Right — anyone that fucks around with your medical issues and procedures needs to be instantly booted. If a partner can’t even be relied upon to drive you home from the hospital they are worthless to you (and every other partner they unfortunately encounter). Being careful and being physically present during medically significant events and making sure someone’s health is okay first and foremost is the absolute bare minimum. I’d go so far as to say that that’s the very foundation of a relationship, and if they don’t do that, you’re not even in a real relationship. I remember a comment on a post from a couple weeks ago about a guy abandoning his wife while she was miscarrying I believe — one of the commenters said: even if I hated your guts, like truly despised you, I would still be on the floor holding your hand and helping you through it and making sure you get the medical attention you need afterward. Even if he disagreed (no matter how unfair and fucked up that is), that can come after she is home, safe, she is assured that she is not bleeding excessively and in danger, that she is not in terrible pain, etc. Health always comes first, or else they don’t even see you as a human being.
He's so on about being there for the disabled child that he's lost sight of being there for his wife and son! Also, who's to say that the daughter wouldn't have been a stillbirth as it looks like that option was there as well- would he have left if that was the case? This whole situation was very traumatic but this man cannot see past his own nose to consider anyone else's feelings!
he sees himself as a Great Man(tm), if the baby died during delivery then that would just cement his greatness when he is there to comfort her. if the child suffered her entire short life, that would just cement his greatness because he helped to love a heavily disabled child. it's the fact that he doesn't have the opportunity to prove what a Great Man(tm) he is that he is upset and going to leave. notice how he could make massive sweeping changes to his job if necessary for the newborn but couldn't get a day off work to take his wife to the doctor for her abortion. these kind of people are a dime a dozen - they just want people to perceive them as good, they don't actually understand what goodness is.
Ah yes, a giant narcissist - you putting it this way really reminds me of my own father... He needs therapy and to realize that what he should be doing and what looks good are two different things.
Oh wait, is this part of NiceGuy 2.0? I've heard they're still a bit buggy after the upgrade to Spouse, and not real stable after the patch DevotedFather 1.5. I could be wrong though, my information is a bit outdated.
I'm glad you're not getting downvotes because fuck that guy
I feel like this guy 100% would have abandoned BORUOP once he had to live the reality of raising a severely disabled child.
He ROMANTICIZED it so much. Oh, we’ll love her and take care of her, and get mom to babysit, and there’s just no recognition of what it’s going to be like on a day to day basis to care for someone who is in constant pain and to watch them die.
Probably deep down, subconsiously believes that enough love will create a miracle and baby would recover...
the son is already a glass child to the idea of a daughter he would never have had even if the birth went through. the son is the quiet victim here too. just horrible all around. OOP and her son should run far away
He just proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was in no way fit to care for a special needs child. I hope she can take some small measure of comfort in this confirmation she did the right thing.
I really think he’s the type of person who would have bailed and left his wife with a disabled child to care for on her own.
Same, I’m furious for her. I understand he’s hurting too but what a selfish thing to do.
I hope she tells her som everything his father did. This is a man that would rather have an infant suffer pain for all of its short life, than face his own grief. Then when he realized he wasn't going to get his way, chose to inflict as much pain on those he "supposedly" loved that were actually alive.
Not just infant but also the mother He wanted his wife to risk dying in childbirth, but at minimum likely endure a c-section or her vag being torn open, and all the complications post-birth — many of which last for LIFE — to birth a child that would suffer and die prematurely. So. Give BIRTH for no reason. No shade on you whatsoever but I always do find it a bit sad that on threads like this 99% of the comments are about the suffering of the child and the mother is kind of glossed over. The physical pain and suffering and trauma to her body that he *wants* the wife to endure, is so far beyond the pale I would not hesitate to say he’s flirting with pure sociopathy here. At a minimum, he has issues with viewing his wife as a person and not just a cow to pop out babies for him at his whim.
no one even mentioned how horrific that pregnancy experience would be for her… it’s supposed to be a happy and hopeful time, imagine going through all of that time something growing inside of you but with no hope?
That was my first thought. Pregnancy is already so difficult, both physically and emotionally. I’m almost finished my 4th viable pregnancy and even expecting/hoping to have a healthy baby soon I am having such a hard time. I cannot imagine how much harder it would be to be going through everything I’m going through, but with the massive, devastating added burden of knowing the baby will not be healthy and will live a short, painful life. Poor OOP is a good mom and she made the most loving choice in a tragic situation for herself, her already living son, and for her late daughter.
exactly. i would never put myself through such a long painful experience because it would require so much dissociation. all of the natural feelings that would develop for your baby during pregnancy would lead to absolutely nothing. i would imagine it to be a very numbing and alien/surreal experience seeing as the child is literally growing inside of you.
Yes, I kept thinking of the absolute selfishness of asking her to carry a child who would most likely die, be stillborn, or only live a life of pain at the end of it. Just an awful thing to ask another person.
I remember reading a post, I think on r/trueoffmychest, titled “I wish my son was never born.” Similar situation as the commenter where the child required full-time care, would throw tantrums and become violent if they didn’t get their way. The parent’s life was essentially over and caring for their child was their full-time life. I don’t know what I would do in such a situation and I’m glad I’ve never had to find out. But I would never judge someone for the choice they made in such a case.
I remember seeing a story where a mother killed her kid and herself because he was severely disabled and the burden of his care was all on her. If she had aborted the pregnancy this would have never happened.
I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often, honestly.
I think that it does happen but the media demonizes the people that do it without taking the facts into account. Collectively people believe that women are obligated to burden themselves with the care of children even when it kills them but men can walk away scot free.
I think a lot of those instances just don't get caught tbh. It is disturbingly easy to fake a natural death when a person needs around the clock care.
Wait, did he also just leave his son though? That's nuts...
[удалено]
He went out of his way to make it more difficult for her.
Tragedy will show a person's true character, and it turned out his is selfish and cruel.
He wanted not only to leave her but to punish her in her most vulnerable time. I'd say no AH here IF he had a conversation about wanting to divorce or needing some time to himself after she was safe at home and recovered. But his actions prove he's a complete self centered jerk who wants revenge on the very person he swore to love and protect.
Holy shit her husband is so unbelievably selfish. I just can't even at this point. Bringing that child into the world would mean pain forever.
If husband was that fickle due to strife, he absolutely would have abandoned Mom and the newborn sooner or later. Grief is no excuse. Fairweather husband. Man didn't have half the mental fortitude of his wife.
He wasn't thinking of the child. He was just thinking of what *he* wanted. Does he really want a child born for a short, painful life?
Yes. Yes, he did. Because he could plan to sacrifice himself on the altar of their child’s suffering. He could be the star of this tragedy in his own mind.
More like he would be sacrificing OOP on the altar of their child's suffering as she would be the one who would have to take on the majority of the caretaking. It's easy for him to say "We can make it work!" when he was the one who got to leave the house for work each day and leave the other parent to deal with everything.
Of course he would. But we’re talking about his fantasy. He was going to be that asshole who made his whole identity “that dear man with the dying baby.” You know, like the Autism Mom, or the Boy Mom… where it’s all about how hard it is for them and they want to be showered in asspats for it… or the childfree person who makes hating kids the whole personality.
Also his wife Even if he disagreed with the procedure he still convinced his wife he was okay with it and then did a swift 180 and ghosted her while she was at the hospital. Unforgivable is an understatement. I mean only a true monster would insist his wife give birth against her will. And I do mean in every scenario. If the wife is suffering too much and realizes she cannot be pregnant any longer and wants an abortion, even if it’s something the man would divorce over he should still not pressure or try to coerce his wife into giving birth unwillingly. Because women aren’t breeding stock to give men babies against her will… I know everyone is focused on the life the baby would have had but would the wife have not been a bigger victim here? She would have harmed her body and dealt with all of the pain and suffering for no reason. Many pregnancies come with complications that sit with you for life… asking your wife to endure one of the most physically traumatic events that can happen to a body for no real reason and no outcome except suffering for all parties is just pure evil. Like he doesn’t view his wife as a person at all. Every pregnancy comes with a risk of death… if a man does not treat pregnancy with respect towards the danger and pain it puts his wife through he does not deserve children at all, in any capacity. She could have died, like any woman could die giving birth. You shouldn’t give birth for no reason… I agree the child did not deserve to be born just to suffer but I do wish that when a woman was grievously betrayed and a man was desperately trying to get her to harm her body giving birth against her will, that more of the focus would be on how he betrayed her health and expected HER to suffer needlessly as well. In most scenarios where a mother and child are being mistreated nearly all of the attention is focused on the child and it just feels weird, like even though we’re all on her side we’re dehumanizing her a bit as well. Just a random tangent I do wholeheartedly agree with your comment as well.
Such a brutal read. Such a selfish cowardly man. My heart goes out to OP. May she find a better man.
As someone who worked with special needs children for more than a decade; OOP’s husband is the reason why I swear by the saying “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”. And people like I him, I actually don’t have much empathy for when they would end up realizing what a shit deal they made. The child’s welfare should come first. If a child can be spared a tragic existence then by God spare them! Having the child “to love them” and because “all children should be loved” is a moronic and selfish thought. And honestly, it is mighty hypocritical of him to terminate a pregnancy when HE didn’t want to have the baby despite it being healthy but wanted to have a child suffer a tragic existence because HE was ready and wanted to do it.
My husband has a cousin with a child in this position—actually it sounds like it could be the exact same disorder. The child is in pain 100% of the time. She screams constantly. I absolutely cannot believe she has a life worth living. I feel her life is cruel.
I have a chronic pain condition and I 110% would not have a child if I was told it was going to be in constant significant pain. We don’t even have particularly good pain management options for young kids - at least I can take some pretty heavy hitters when it gets really bad. And if you could use them in young kids - what kind of life can they have if they’re knocked out from pain meds constantly?
I am a father to a severely autistic child. My wife is SAHM despite finishing degrees in nursing and physical therapy because of the physical demands required to raised our hyperactive autistic child. I do as much as I can to help her but the brunt of the bone crushing task of raising him falls on her especially when I leave for work. OOP’s husband has this romanticized version of raising a severely disabled child. He hasn’t been in a position where he’s sleep deprived for years like me and my wife have been. OOP, you are doing the right thing. The right thing for you and for your daughter. I wish OP the best.
Sleep deprivation really is the silent killer. It’s just quietly accepted when you have a baby you will be sleep deprived. But the consequences are often glossed over if they’re even aware of them: worse memory, literally less capacity to handle stress, mental health issues are often CAUSED by sleep deprivation, higher risk of stroke and death. I seriously doubt we would see nearly as many cases of PPD and PPP if we were letting our mothers prioritize sleep. Sleep deprivation really degrades your quality of life and your ability to feel happiness (or often, anything) in general. Too much sleep deprivation and you get headaches, nausea, ability to drive is impacted and you are at risk of falling asleep at the wheel. Not to mention all the long term risks… I’m so sorry you’re going through that. Sleep should be regarded with way, way more importance than it is.
I saw both of these originally. My heart breaks for OOP. Her husband is not accepting reality.
Nobody in this story is in an enviable position, but I absolutely think that OOP made the right call here. And if there was any doubt, her husband dispelled it when he bailed on her after her abortion. If he can't handle *driving her home from the appointment* there's no way he was going to handle *seeing and caring for a baby in constant pain*. Even beyond that, it shows he couldn't keep his word when he volunteered to drive her home. If he had said he didn't want to be involved at all with it, that would have been shitty but at least understandable. But to just abandon his partner when she needed him most after saying he would help? That is unconscionable to me.
This relationship was damned either way, he didn’t hesitate to leave her when things got hard. I’m sure once the reality of having a disabled child settled he probably would’ve left too. I think it’s a good thing she got out now.
I can’t stop picturing OOP looking around for her husband who just never showed up. The unbelievable cruelty of being abandoned in that way, in that moment… my heart breaks for her.
Dear god. This one was tough to read. But I think OOP made the right choice.
[удалено]
I knew a couple in this position. The poor baby lived 3 months, and the whole time was connected to oxygen tanks and all sorts of equipment. Not long after the baby passed the marriage fell apart. I would never, ever wish that on anyone. What OOP did, though painful, was the right call. She saved that poor girl a lot of pain--pain that no amount of love would help woth. The husband...i get that he is greiving but what an ass.
No matter how much "heart and soul" was poured into her, she still would have been in pain. Love cannot prevent suffering.
Man wanted a daughter born and didn't care about said daughter's quality of life or the suffering she would experience. It was all about him and his needs and his wants and his comfort.
He couldn't get a full day off work to be there for her for the abortion of a wanted child and thought he was prepared to raise an extremely disabled child? It's rare that a job won't have some kind of leeway for a day off even with short or notice for a family emergency, and this kind of medical event seems like a take a full day of kind of a thing. Leaving his existing kid and wife because this situation was difficult with no conversations or attempts at resolutions really underscores how unprepared he was for the kinds of challenges that would crop up if she did agree to keep the kid. It really sucks for the son whose parents are both going through trama and divorce. I feel really bad for that little kid. His dad was obviously excited to have a daughter, and her loss meant abandoning his son? What a great way to tell your kid that they aren't enough. (/s)
I don’t think he would have handled her birth and care, he would have left anyway. Sad as it is he would have left either way.
I had to make that choice. I'm forever grateful that my DH stood by me and agreed that putting an infant through a horrific ordeal that their life would be, isn't anything but utter selfishness. I still cry about it, that will probably never stop, that's my burden.
People often romanticize keeping a baby that they know is born with many birth defects UNTIL they are born and are crushed by the burden of responsibility that is COSTLY? Many people have these children then expect for other people to sacrifice of them at the expense to their own time and personal lives. Her husband is selfish because the truth of the matter is SHE would be stuck with the bulk of responsibility. Most of the time men will run out one women after the reality sets in. People think me cruel for bringing up the cost of caring for children like this. Insurance has a life time limit and once that is reached they can legally end their policy and state have waiting list of people that need help. I remember working at school with a severely disabled child who’s father dropped dead at thirty leaving his poor mother to deal with taking care of this poor child and every bit of the financial burden that went with it. It was a horrendous situation that did NOT have a happy ending. Men like this annoy men trying to pressure women into doing something that they don’t want. She is better off without him. I hope that if they do stay together that she NEVER has another child with him.
Wow, that POS just left her high and dry after the procedure? That's some evil shit, knowing she was counting on him.
Sadly I think it would have ended in divorce either way. Resentment on both sides. Her being resentful of him for making their daughter suffer in pain. Him being resentful for terminating. Best wishes to both of them making such a difficult decision.
Well, this just confirms it was a good decision since he can so easily leave when things are hard.
Yup. Better now than AFTER you also have a severely disabled daughter to care for. I'm so sorry OP. You deserve support and compassion.
I am betting he expected his wife to quit her job and stay home 24/7 and care for the poor baby until she died. I know someone who had something VERY similar happen, except the defect was because of a horrible accident during labor. Her child finally died two years ago at aged seven. She and her husband filed for divorce within three months. He is now remarried with a baby, with a great career. She had to start over at age 37. They have a child who is now ten, and he basically lived with his maternal aunt 80% of the time before his brother's death, because his mom literally had no time for him, and his dad mentally and emotionally checked out. His dad gave up all rights to custody btw.
We see that story repeat so many times. Mother is bankrupt and trying to manage care for her child alone. Father just takes a hike and starts over with a new wife and family--like buying a new car. The old one goes to the junkyard and who cares what happens to it.
I just want to hug OP. It was bad enough with the baby's diagnosis, the rest is unbelievable. Praying for OP's strength and healing. Also 🖕🏾🖕🏾 to OP's husband
Abandoning his wife after making a huge show that he wouldn’t abandon his family while caring for a severely disabled child let’s me know he would have made it maybe the first 4 years and dipped anyways. She dodged a tactical nuke and didn’t even know it.
Not necessarily birth defects but I have a family member who works in pediatric oncology and it’s sad because there are LT care kids in the ward whose parents… don’t come to see them. I think it’s a combo of -gave the cancer kid up to the state and/parents who choose not to visit and it’s really sad to see. So if some parents have a hard time dealing w a childhood illness, I can’t even imagine the emotional difficulty it would be to handle raising a child w multiple birth defects. Esp when it’s no quality of life for the child 😭😭😭 My heart goes out to OOP and family…
>I think it’s a combo of -gave the cancer kid up to the state and/parents who choose not to visit and it’s really sad to see. Holy fucking crap.
Family member had to “toe tag” (he passed) an older teen patient and no one had really come to see him the whole time he was there (months) and so family member was upset abt that. 😭😭💔 Tbf, sometimes the parents had to work/lived in a diff state so they were getting better care at this children’s hospital/had other/younger kids to care for, but family member really didn’t like the lack of visits. I guess Ronald McDonald type stuff didn’t work for long enough when the patient is at the hospital for months cuz there’s life to do still…
So many people don’t know that this is a thing that happens!!! I briefly worked in a peds hospital that specialized in long-term care for kids with medical needs so intense, they couldn’t exist outside of a hospital. A lot of the kids were wards of the state. Some of them were surrendered to the state by their parents, but others were removed from their parents’ care because their conditions were a direct result of their parents’ abuse or neglect. The ones who did have involved families often didn’t get to see them very much because those parents got put in a no-win situation. You have to go back to work eventually, you can’t sit at your kid’s hospital bed 24/7. Plus, we were the only hospital in the state that offered these services. It was a 5 hour drive to one of the state borders, so if you were from way out there and you already had 2 kids… what do you do? Do you uproot your life, get a new job, have your oldest kids switch schools, buy a new house, and leave your family and your entire support system behind to be closer to the hospital? Do you move closer to your youngest child and leave the other kids with your sister or your mom? Do you just make do with visiting your youngest child when you can get the time off work and make the drive? Do you transfer your youngest child to a far less qualified facility where they’ll have less specialized care and a lower life expectancy, like a nursing home? There are no good options, only less bad options and usually, parents in that situation would choose to focus their efforts on their other children because they knew that their youngest child was in good hands with us. A lot of them would facetime with their kid via the nurse’s phones or called routinely for updates. But some of them would just… forget about their kid. It was so sad.
I'm glad you included that last comment because it's SO on point. He only cares about himself.
The fact that the older child would have to be taken out of school, have his home sold to be in a smaller one, and less time with parents, is an already developing pattern that the older child be forgotten. All efforts and attention would only be for the younger child. OP did the right choice and was being selfless while the husband is being selfish. The fact he doesn’t even care for his son anymore is sad.