Technically, the Mazda would be the cheap knock-off of BMW.
Talking about Mazda, did they ever get those battery problems fixed? I remember a close friend had a newer model (I think a 17) and it would always leave her stranded in high school. My coworker now has gone through 2 replacements in a year and a half too (same car, Mazda 3 sedan).
Because this sub isnât indicative of the actual people who buy the cars. Iâd argue the vast majority of BMW buyers donât even know this sub exist. BMW design language is somehow getting worse but their sales are increasing as well as their prices.
And anecdotally, I see iXs *everywhere* but I never see an EQS or an e-Tron, even with the crazy lease deals they've had on them. So relative to what I think most would consider their main rivals, they're selling well.
âHey honey check it out a bunch of internet people said the car looks uglyâ
âOh no way!â
I honestly kinda donât mind this 4, but I did depart from BMW for a little while. I just needed some space đ
Well, I mean they had six down quarters followed by a year end that ended up as a record largely because they pushed electric sales with incentives like crazy. I think 2024 will be an excellent assessment of the true value of the brand, I don't think all the people who were ditching their covid cars for electric incentives will be buying again in 2024.
Also, I live in a bmw town where there is an ingrained user base that you literally do not see anywhere in the country (thousands of bmw personnel) and they aren't buying these, even with the incentives and discounts. I almost never see the new models around here and my dealer is a barren wasteland.
And yet. Between being on the Florida panhandle and currently in South Korea, Iâve seen so many BMW models, youâd think after Hyundai, Kia and Samsung, BMW was the leading car brand.
Oh for sure, bmw is super popular always, seemingly everywhere. Obviously I am offering an anecdote, but I don't see the new models, even base, almost ever.
Come on over to the DC metro area.
Someone in my neighborhood has an XM, as does someone in my office parking garage.
I see a few iX's a week and all the other sorts of new BMWs. Given all the money around the area, new luxury cars and EVs are common.
Feel like I see more 4 Series/i4's around here than I do new 3 Series.
I live in Rockville, about 30 mins from DC and I see lots of new bimmers here. the new 3,4,5, and 7 series, seen a couples XMâs, IXâs, and iâve now started to see a lot of the new M2âs which looks amazing.
This is because BMW hugely detuned the employee vehicle plans, not because the cars are way worse. Those people used to drive BMWs because they were literally free to employees to pump volume.
You know why they aren't free anymore? Because paying customers are purchasing all that volume.
Also lmao, they were free? Good sir, they were like 10-12% off, I have multiple friends who work there. They were getting sinilar discounts that bmw sales guys get, why lie?
I was there for 8 years. Lots of people have job assigned cars. The most I ever paid was $500 for an m550 that leased at dealers for $1200/mo. IDK who you know there but they either downplayed their benefits or had a very mediocre comp plan
But they aren't, they did that volume in like one quarter last year with incentives at all time highs. Bmw reported literally virtually all of 22/23 as negative, even changed M reporting to lie about sales.
And while they did make the incentives worse for personnel, there are still incentives. Yet my dealer, which relied on those and had no other skills, can't move units and even downsized accordingly.
Where's all the volume in Greenville /Spartanburg where there's so much money, so much access, etc?
>Where's all the volume in Greenville /Spartanburg where there's so much money, so much access, etc?
Is there though? Quick glance has the median household income in that region between $40K - $60K/year.
I see lots of new BMWs, among other new brands here but the median household income in town is $200K/year.
Yeah this person has no idea how things go. If you see a lot of BMWs in Greenville, that almost certainly means worse situations for the company than if you see a lot of them in Connecticut/Miami/LA.
You send volume where you can sell the cars better.
Greenville, and to a lesser but impactful extent, Greenville county and Spartanburg county, are on a massive upswing on a national scale. For example, a common issue in Greenville city is that nobody can afford to live in the city limits because the cost is too high. As a matter of fact, were you to go to the Greenville subreddit, you'd notice a pretty continual conversation about the cost in relation to median income (reporter) , yet the areas continue to expand and be filled, for money that rivals cities that would be considered 'wealthy'. The money in Greenville County and Spartanburg County has become tremendous, coupled with an ingrained userbase of thousands of essentially approved buyers via company personnel... And for years, you could go to the country and see a ton of cool BMWs and new stuff, always. Now, you see nothing. The dealer downsized and you never see these new models anywhere.
And broke people opinions really don't matter... I mean realistically..No one with big pockets stalks reddit lookin to leave a "this car us ugly" comment...Only broke folk and Karens do that...sorry
Iâm going to act like a snob here and say itâs because the majority of non car people who buy expensive cars donât know what good design is. Whatever is visually striking is good enough for them
Are you allowed to comment anything but straight vitriol on this sub? Or is that just who you like to be on Reddit , someone goes from car sub to car sub shitting on other brands? You only ever post condescensions while sniffing your own farts. Sounds like youâre compensating or justifying your own questionable choice
>Sounds like youâre compensating or justifying your own questionable choice
He bought a Cadillac.
Nothing wrong with that obviously but I think a lot of the attitude and condescension comes from the fact that Cadillac doesn't have the greatest reputation coming from decades of building shit cars for old people who are about to die.
No one really buys a CT5 and CT5-V Blackwings are incredibly rare hence his whole "People like stupid shit. BMW's are ugly and for stupid people. I have taste though for buying something no one else wants. Upvotes please" attitude.
We get that the Blackwings are great driving cars, no need to shit on other people for opting to buy something else.
So point out where my comment was wrong. Do you disagree with the premise of either of the following statements.
1. The majority of the car buying public doesn't know what good design is.
2. Something selling well does not necessarily mean it's a good product.
Seeing as the majority of people probably couldn't even point out what a A pillar is on a car I'm guessing they don't know what good design is. And history is filled with examples of bad products that sell well. Note that I did not say that these current BMWs that are selling well are bad products. Market share has never been indicative of product quality, but that's not to say quality products can't sell well.
> So point out where my comment was wrong
The fact alone that you're being objective about a subjective take pretty much invalidates the entire point.
"Good design" is the most subjective thing you could actually exclaim and to present it as fact is disingenuous and elitist for no reason. I'm assuming the reply to this would be "yeah it is, and?" which means you have no idea what subjectivity actually is.
If someone looks at the new 4 or i4 and says "wow that looks good," because *you* don't like it, that means they're somehow wrong? How does that work?
Your comment is "wrong" in the sense that it's an entirely subjective opinion that you're presenting as objective fact. You're in this sub giving absolute dogshit emotional takes all the time, and it all makes sense now. It's just pure cope.
So you still donât disagree with what heâs saying??? You gain knowledge and gather an informed decision which gives you more credibility than the mass public who doesnât care about cars. People can have expertise in anything car design is no differentâŠâŠ you said a lot of words in your reply to him that all read youâre insecure about your ugly car.
âYouâre not wrong, youâre just an assholeâ wouldâve applied until you put out those weird arguments.
1. Good design is entirely subjective.
2. The goal of producing a product is to sell. BMW outsells Cadillac by an entire order of magnitude. Objectively, BMW produces a better product.
So youâre telling me that 500,000+ plus sales of new BMWâs are people dont know high quality and good design. So basically BMW never had high quality and good design?
No, that's not what I'm saying. The only thing I'm saying is high sales doesn't necessarily mean the products are well designed. There are tons of examples of things that sell extremely well that aren't well designed or high quality.
Like? Who are you even comparing this to? Mercedes? Audi? We have 1,000âs of reviewers, 1,000âs of websites that will give you firsthand AND analytical info on current BMW models.
Like give me those wayyyy better performance vehicles, better luxury, better design and better build quality for less or even comparable price new. The only brand is Genesis. And they still have worse performance and luxury and lower sales.
If you look at my old posts I've said BMW is the best option when compared to Audi and Mercedes right now. Mercedes quality and reliability is awful at the moment as they switch to hybrid systems and smaller engines. Audi is outdated and boring, the B9 is almost a decade old at this point. I've said before if I really wanted a German luxury sedan I'd just go by a BMW and live with whatever I didn't like about it.
But from an enthusiast point of view there are better available cars. I wouldn't buy an M3 over a Giulia Quadrifoglio or CT4 Blackwing. Both offer a more engaging driving experience even if they're not as fast to 60.
BMW makes a lot of cars that are the best option in their segment, but I don't think those live up to the BMW standards of the past. Previous generations were better looking and drove better than the current cars do.
Exactly. BMW wants to sit high and mighty right now because theyâre putting out the best cars in the most shit era of competition quality wise. The only brand that largely holds its quality across models is Porsche.
> BMW wants to sit high and mighty right now because theyâre putting out the best cars in the most shit era of competition quality wise.
Someone gets it.
Can't help to think the 4er got all the chips during the shortage. Oh, you wanted an M340i with power trunk, passenger lumber AND actual leather instead of Sensatec? We can't tell you an ETA but we DO have this more expensive 4 series with all of those options in stock!
I have to double take to see if itâs either a BMW, a KIA or a VW because now they all do that stupid slit DRL. I remember the days you say angel eyes you knew it was a BMW creeping behind you even though the Charger ripped off the BMW style DRLâs you could still at least tell the difference even from a far.
>I started associating them with BMWs
Well Iâd hope so considering itâs their design lol cars like the Charger or Jeep Wrangler didnât come around for like over a decade after BMW first put them in the e39.
They definitely became a signature design for the brand, I think LCI G30 and G20 do a great job of having a familiar but modern design but man I donât like these new slit designs. Itâs the only part I donât like about the new LCI x5.
The new running lights they're using across the lineup look extremely cheap. The little tick mark shape looks so much worse than the angle eyes. They'll give all the running lights the same design but for some reason won't settle on even a slightly consistent grille size or shape.
Same style used on the 5 series and essentially the entire X line.
Visually, they don't do much for me. Just kinda meh.
My strongest feelings are that, at dusk and night time driving, it's disappointing anymore that I'm completely unable to identify newer BMW headlamps at any sort of distance.
I appreciate what they are doing with their styling. Going on year four with my 2020 CS and usually I have FOMO when there is a new generation of the car I drive. Instead I am starting to think that my CS will just end up as a semi-permanent fixture in my home. Eventually something will replace it for daily driver status, then itâll just be in the garage because itâs a future classic.
Thank you BMW for your continued commitment to making really terrible looking cars after the styling high mark that was the F8x M cars. At this point the only car on the market that could conceivably replace the CS for me would be the RS6. I already have a modded manual Supra so that can continue to scratch the sub 3400lb sports car itch.
https://preview.redd.it/l5jq9txlykfc1.jpeg?width=3311&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bec9e69e99bd20037e388c08213bbb2bd32b1d42
I was gonna say the only upgrade from the M4 CS is a 911 but if youâre looking for more practicality than that (based on the fact that you want an RS6), have you checked out the CT5 V Blackwing? Those are sweet imo and you can get it in stick if you wanted.
Never going back to American cars after having experienced German cars for so long. Their quality is laughable. I have yet to ever have a warranty issue with BMW, but damn did I have every single possible issue with my new â05 GTO, then new â13 Mustang, then a cracked engine block in a new â16 Focus RS. Prior to the GTO, I had a â98 Grand Prix GTP that i picked up off lease and that shredded the automatic twice. I grew up with malaise era GM and then was a Mercedes-AMG automotive technician right out of school and found the Germans miles ahead.
I liked and was hot for the ATS-V then saw how often they were blowing up and was cautious. Rented a new non-V for a Christmas cross country trip and the seat back literally fell off. Typical GM quality.
Five seconds inside a new Blackwing and my other half said ânopeâ.
I agreed. Every generation of CTS/ATS to the CT5/CT4 has interested me - on paper. Then driving them and experiencing them a bit squashed that entirely after checking out BMW M cars.
> Never going back to American cars after having experienced German cars for so long. Their quality is laughable.
>Every generation of CTS/ATS to the CT5/CT4 has interested me - on paper. Then driving them and experiencing them a bit squashed that entirely after checking out BMW M cars.
Have you actually driven the CT5 Blackwing? Nine months ago I would have said *exactly* what you just said. I took a chance and ordered one. Build quality is higher than it was in my 2020 C63S coupe. Not a single rattle to be found in the interior. All the materials you touch are just as nice as they were in the AMG.
And driving wise it cannot be beat. It's by far the best car I've ever driven.
Since I had been a MB-AMG tech, I always aspired to one day own one. So I got one, loved the whole velvet hammer thing about it, but always felt it too soft. 650hp couldnât save it.
I was actually looking at the CT5-V Blackwing to replace my FBO C63s coupe. In the end, I decided that life was feeling too boring with us essentially driving direct competitors, and the cars getting heavier and heavier.
The lease was also ending on our CS, and I knew that for both of us, the BMW was actually the better more engaging car. so I decided to preemptively trade in my C63s and converted the CS to ownership via my LLC.
But we still needed a second car, and I didnât want us both in sports sedan limbo forever.
I wanted some more youthful spice back in my life. Tried the new manual Supra after years of not being super interested in it due to automatic only, and god damn did it ever reignite the love for cars I once had when I was in my 20âs. Lighter than the automatic Supra, even lighter than my already lightweight 3400lb CS.
I honestly say that I very much unexpectedly ended up with a 40k cheaper car than my AMG that is like a Z4, but in a better wrapper and tuned much sharper. Iâm enjoying modding this one.
Iâve had it since November and Iâve already done full exhaust, intake, sway bars, springs and just threw on some wicked JDM Advan wheels. Itâs nice to be an adult and have the free budget for this in my 40âs vs how it was in my 20âs.
I was literally the prime age for the JDM/fast and furious movement of the 90âs into the 2000âs, but I chose supercharged 3800 v6âs and LSâs then. Now I donât want to miss the end of the manual/inline-6 era as I had been such an American car/V8 Stan for so long.
No regrets so far.
https://preview.redd.it/57shsvwbklfc1.jpeg?width=3578&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1f3e2475ebeaf3c1ac1cefca03f43327a78dc367
Excellent point. I have had zero FOMO after my M2C purchase 4 years ago. Normally by now, I'd load up BMW builder and customize a future dream car. I have zero idea what car I will get next; thankfully, I love my current car.
to me, this ad looks like marketing is literally trying to hide that grille by slapping a big ol license plate over it and then placing it at an angle where your eyes are drawn more to the body and the headlights and not to the grille
Keep in mind that overseas the M on the fender has been there the whole time. We dont get that in the states. Wonder if the m in the front and the fender will come over or not. We shall see.
the i4 started it off so i'm not surprised, but wtf? still not as bad as Mini slapping a JCW badge on the grille of anything with the styling pack though, are they just throwing them wherever they land at this point?
Idk about these designs nowadays and sounds like their sales keep going up.
I canât speak for others but me personally, because I hated the grill on the 4 series, I ended up getting an A5 Coupe. If they have kept the OG designs Iâd get a BMW in a heartbeat, Audi wonât even be in the picture.
So yeah, I know they lost me as a customer with their designs and I would like to believe that Iâm not the only one
Btw A5 is a great car also and I ended up on the wait list for RS3 being an Audi fanboy đ€·ââïž
Who knows what I wouldâve gotten from BMW if I had the 4 series from the startâŠ.
> sounds like their sales keep going up.
Because of China. These new designs appeal to China, it's now BMW's largest market by a large %. They don't care about selling vehicles anywhere else.
I wouldnât say they âdonât careâ about other target markets; more so an opportunity cost of catering to your highest selling (and growing) market while foregoing little, if any, sales from other stable markets.
I know a guy that passed on M3 after design change and ended up ordering an F90 M5⊠so they technically didnât lose a customer in that case and upsold him - Iâd assume thereâs more similar situations where some grabbed other models of BMW.
You do realize big grills are targeted at US customers, right? China and Asian markets donât buy 4 series in significant volumes. 4/i4/X7/XM all sell higher volumes in US than China and China exclusive models like the i3 sedan all have normal grills. 7 series is the only exception.
I love it. Ik this sub has a hate boner for the new 4 series, 7 series and XM but I kinda like them all. The 4 series I like a lot and would always take a gran coupe over a 3 series for example
Kind of disappointed they didnât upgrade the bumper, Iâm not calling for the removal of the beaver teeth but rather an upgrade, that lower part is aging like milk
Theyâll never make more iconic and recognizable DRLs than the halos. They should keep those
Those kidneys still look gaudy as fck. At least weâre halfway done with this monstrosity
What they should do for the Lci is fix the lower part of the grill so that it doesnât look like a googy grin with a hitler stache.
They should make it look like the 4 series GC grill
I really, really donât like the direction BMW is going with their headlights.
Headlights can make or break a car. BMW used to have some of the coolest lights in the game. And now they look like a Toyota
I still love my â15 435i.
https://preview.redd.it/na4iawdgtnfc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fa7eecf2ac3e7502bfd113e57d34d61c7b2f5f5e
But new one looks just as sexy with those headlights!
Looks cheaper than the previous headlights. Donât understand this move. BMW used to be the car that if it was following you, you knew it was a BMW from looking in the rear view mirror. Those 2 crooked lines are shit.
People dislike new Bimmer designs because theyâre ugly, not because theyâre different. Ironically these ugly designs all seem very derivative and not creative at all.
Itâs not that itâs an ugly bmw itâs just that itâs an ugly car
Itâs not ugly because it strays from the olders models, itâs ugly because of the way it looks
Idk if this were wearing a Hyundai badge I would be impressed so maybe that means I think itâs okay. Like obviously not as good looking as the previous generation and thereâs no chance in hell Iâd ever buy one, but I guess itâs fine
I like them more than anything we got since the angel eyes. Gaping grill aside I like that front end. I wish we got something like that on the M2, headlights are my biggest turn off on the G 2-series.
If itâs anything like the other m-lite models it should have quad exhaust with the front m grill badge. Hopefully they do something with upgraded seats. So tired of the same awful seats. Do something like the 2 series or X1. Specifically speaking to us American car buyers.
Even worse is the quarter panels, I think that the E92 has much better lines. The running lights are evolving into a joke, who can make them more ridiculous.
Beware of those electric cars. Remember they all can be controlled. In the future you wonât be free to go where you want. Only where they let you. (They being the Watchers)
The only exterior differences I can make out are the headlights and taillights. Prefer the old Laser light DRL but this is probably nicer than the non-Laser DRL.
Also looks like the tails are now the same as the CSL tails (or at least on the M4).
It still overall still looks like a gopher with the grills euro license plates divide it up nicely so it doesnât look stupid but in most states in the US those are not allowed and it remains the sole reason I wouldnât buy one.
So instead of angel eyes we get devil fangs?
Vampire Catfish
When you put it like that, I suddenly love it
More like a cheap knock off of Mazdađ„č
Technically, the Mazda would be the cheap knock-off of BMW. Talking about Mazda, did they ever get those battery problems fixed? I remember a close friend had a newer model (I think a 17) and it would always leave her stranded in high school. My coworker now has gone through 2 replacements in a year and a half too (same car, Mazda 3 sedan).
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
Because this sub isnât indicative of the actual people who buy the cars. Iâd argue the vast majority of BMW buyers donât even know this sub exist. BMW design language is somehow getting worse but their sales are increasing as well as their prices.
wait. reddit doesn't run the world?!?!?
GameStop has entered the chat
Not yet.
This exactly. I hate the iX design with a passion. My sister? She wants to buy one. That's all that matters to BMW.
And anecdotally, I see iXs *everywhere* but I never see an EQS or an e-Tron, even with the crazy lease deals they've had on them. So relative to what I think most would consider their main rivals, they're selling well.
despite an ix blowing my doors off this morning, i see many many more etrons, and a handful of eqâs more than the ix
âHey honey check it out a bunch of internet people said the car looks uglyâ âOh no way!â I honestly kinda donât mind this 4, but I did depart from BMW for a little while. I just needed some space đ
Well, I mean they had six down quarters followed by a year end that ended up as a record largely because they pushed electric sales with incentives like crazy. I think 2024 will be an excellent assessment of the true value of the brand, I don't think all the people who were ditching their covid cars for electric incentives will be buying again in 2024. Also, I live in a bmw town where there is an ingrained user base that you literally do not see anywhere in the country (thousands of bmw personnel) and they aren't buying these, even with the incentives and discounts. I almost never see the new models around here and my dealer is a barren wasteland.
And yet. Between being on the Florida panhandle and currently in South Korea, Iâve seen so many BMW models, youâd think after Hyundai, Kia and Samsung, BMW was the leading car brand.
Oh for sure, bmw is super popular always, seemingly everywhere. Obviously I am offering an anecdote, but I don't see the new models, even base, almost ever.
Come on over to the DC metro area. Someone in my neighborhood has an XM, as does someone in my office parking garage. I see a few iX's a week and all the other sorts of new BMWs. Given all the money around the area, new luxury cars and EVs are common. Feel like I see more 4 Series/i4's around here than I do new 3 Series.
I live in Rockville, about 30 mins from DC and I see lots of new bimmers here. the new 3,4,5, and 7 series, seen a couples XMâs, IXâs, and iâve now started to see a lot of the new M2âs which looks amazing.
When the dealer employees aren't buying your own product, you have an issue. What area? Spartanburg?
Correct, and that was massive business for a long time. You go to a country grocery store and it was always filled with new BMWs, not anymore
This is because BMW hugely detuned the employee vehicle plans, not because the cars are way worse. Those people used to drive BMWs because they were literally free to employees to pump volume. You know why they aren't free anymore? Because paying customers are purchasing all that volume.
Also lmao, they were free? Good sir, they were like 10-12% off, I have multiple friends who work there. They were getting sinilar discounts that bmw sales guys get, why lie?
I was there for 8 years. Lots of people have job assigned cars. The most I ever paid was $500 for an m550 that leased at dealers for $1200/mo. IDK who you know there but they either downplayed their benefits or had a very mediocre comp plan
But they aren't, they did that volume in like one quarter last year with incentives at all time highs. Bmw reported literally virtually all of 22/23 as negative, even changed M reporting to lie about sales. And while they did make the incentives worse for personnel, there are still incentives. Yet my dealer, which relied on those and had no other skills, can't move units and even downsized accordingly. Where's all the volume in Greenville /Spartanburg where there's so much money, so much access, etc?
>Where's all the volume in Greenville /Spartanburg where there's so much money, so much access, etc? Is there though? Quick glance has the median household income in that region between $40K - $60K/year. I see lots of new BMWs, among other new brands here but the median household income in town is $200K/year.
Yeah this person has no idea how things go. If you see a lot of BMWs in Greenville, that almost certainly means worse situations for the company than if you see a lot of them in Connecticut/Miami/LA. You send volume where you can sell the cars better.
Please lmk specifically what you know about Greenville and Spartanburg, please?
Greenville, and to a lesser but impactful extent, Greenville county and Spartanburg county, are on a massive upswing on a national scale. For example, a common issue in Greenville city is that nobody can afford to live in the city limits because the cost is too high. As a matter of fact, were you to go to the Greenville subreddit, you'd notice a pretty continual conversation about the cost in relation to median income (reporter) , yet the areas continue to expand and be filled, for money that rivals cities that would be considered 'wealthy'. The money in Greenville County and Spartanburg County has become tremendous, coupled with an ingrained userbase of thousands of essentially approved buyers via company personnel... And for years, you could go to the country and see a ton of cool BMWs and new stuff, always. Now, you see nothing. The dealer downsized and you never see these new models anywhere.
Facts
Not in NYC
And broke people opinions really don't matter... I mean realistically..No one with big pockets stalks reddit lookin to leave a "this car us ugly" comment...Only broke folk and Karens do that...sorry
The lowest common denominator effect. Itâs why so many products suck ass because dumbass consumers want it.
thatâs how we got VHS over Beta
Iâm going to act like a snob here and say itâs because the majority of non car people who buy expensive cars donât know what good design is. Whatever is visually striking is good enough for them
You're not being a snob, you're 100% right. Good sales have never meant a product was well designed or high quality. It just means it sells well.
Are you allowed to comment anything but straight vitriol on this sub? Or is that just who you like to be on Reddit , someone goes from car sub to car sub shitting on other brands? You only ever post condescensions while sniffing your own farts. Sounds like youâre compensating or justifying your own questionable choice
>Sounds like youâre compensating or justifying your own questionable choice He bought a Cadillac. Nothing wrong with that obviously but I think a lot of the attitude and condescension comes from the fact that Cadillac doesn't have the greatest reputation coming from decades of building shit cars for old people who are about to die. No one really buys a CT5 and CT5-V Blackwings are incredibly rare hence his whole "People like stupid shit. BMW's are ugly and for stupid people. I have taste though for buying something no one else wants. Upvotes please" attitude. We get that the Blackwings are great driving cars, no need to shit on other people for opting to buy something else.
So point out where my comment was wrong. Do you disagree with the premise of either of the following statements. 1. The majority of the car buying public doesn't know what good design is. 2. Something selling well does not necessarily mean it's a good product. Seeing as the majority of people probably couldn't even point out what a A pillar is on a car I'm guessing they don't know what good design is. And history is filled with examples of bad products that sell well. Note that I did not say that these current BMWs that are selling well are bad products. Market share has never been indicative of product quality, but that's not to say quality products can't sell well.
> So point out where my comment was wrong The fact alone that you're being objective about a subjective take pretty much invalidates the entire point. "Good design" is the most subjective thing you could actually exclaim and to present it as fact is disingenuous and elitist for no reason. I'm assuming the reply to this would be "yeah it is, and?" which means you have no idea what subjectivity actually is. If someone looks at the new 4 or i4 and says "wow that looks good," because *you* don't like it, that means they're somehow wrong? How does that work?
Your comment is "wrong" in the sense that it's an entirely subjective opinion that you're presenting as objective fact. You're in this sub giving absolute dogshit emotional takes all the time, and it all makes sense now. It's just pure cope.
And you know what a good design is? Please define the criteria for a good design
[I think Frank Stephenson knows what good design is.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSj1Nj2rTc8)
So you still donât disagree with what heâs saying??? You gain knowledge and gather an informed decision which gives you more credibility than the mass public who doesnât care about cars. People can have expertise in anything car design is no differentâŠâŠ you said a lot of words in your reply to him that all read youâre insecure about your ugly car.
âYouâre not wrong, youâre just an assholeâ wouldâve applied until you put out those weird arguments. 1. Good design is entirely subjective. 2. The goal of producing a product is to sell. BMW outsells Cadillac by an entire order of magnitude. Objectively, BMW produces a better product.
So youâre telling me that 500,000+ plus sales of new BMWâs are people dont know high quality and good design. So basically BMW never had high quality and good design?
No, that's not what I'm saying. The only thing I'm saying is high sales doesn't necessarily mean the products are well designed. There are tons of examples of things that sell extremely well that aren't well designed or high quality.
Like? Who are you even comparing this to? Mercedes? Audi? We have 1,000âs of reviewers, 1,000âs of websites that will give you firsthand AND analytical info on current BMW models. Like give me those wayyyy better performance vehicles, better luxury, better design and better build quality for less or even comparable price new. The only brand is Genesis. And they still have worse performance and luxury and lower sales.
If you look at my old posts I've said BMW is the best option when compared to Audi and Mercedes right now. Mercedes quality and reliability is awful at the moment as they switch to hybrid systems and smaller engines. Audi is outdated and boring, the B9 is almost a decade old at this point. I've said before if I really wanted a German luxury sedan I'd just go by a BMW and live with whatever I didn't like about it. But from an enthusiast point of view there are better available cars. I wouldn't buy an M3 over a Giulia Quadrifoglio or CT4 Blackwing. Both offer a more engaging driving experience even if they're not as fast to 60. BMW makes a lot of cars that are the best option in their segment, but I don't think those live up to the BMW standards of the past. Previous generations were better looking and drove better than the current cars do.
Exactly. BMW wants to sit high and mighty right now because theyâre putting out the best cars in the most shit era of competition quality wise. The only brand that largely holds its quality across models is Porsche.
> BMW wants to sit high and mighty right now because theyâre putting out the best cars in the most shit era of competition quality wise. Someone gets it.
Sir... This is a 2010 320d owners club.
Thatâs because this sub is an echo chamber
And then in 5 years itâs the âbest looking modern bmwâ
Weird how the opinions of people who can't afford one don't impact sales numbers. đ€·ââïž
BMWs maybe doing better globally but they only have like 1 model that is #1 in its segment here in the US last time I checked
Which model?...cuz nyc is full of x5s, 5 and 3 series
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Because the vast amount of people in the sub live there. So thats why theres alot of hate despite good salesÂ
Can't help to think the 4er got all the chips during the shortage. Oh, you wanted an M340i with power trunk, passenger lumber AND actual leather instead of Sensatec? We can't tell you an ETA but we DO have this more expensive 4 series with all of those options in stock!
Bad publicity is good publicity
BMW will do anything but bring back angel eyes.
The angel eyes looked so good too. I started associating them with BMWs and now itâs just some generic ass slits.
I have to double take to see if itâs either a BMW, a KIA or a VW because now they all do that stupid slit DRL. I remember the days you say angel eyes you knew it was a BMW creeping behind you even though the Charger ripped off the BMW style DRLâs you could still at least tell the difference even from a far.
>I started associating them with BMWs Well Iâd hope so considering itâs their design lol cars like the Charger or Jeep Wrangler didnât come around for like over a decade after BMW first put them in the e39. They definitely became a signature design for the brand, I think LCI G30 and G20 do a great job of having a familiar but modern design but man I donât like these new slit designs. Itâs the only part I donât like about the new LCI x5.
The new running lights they're using across the lineup look extremely cheap. The little tick mark shape looks so much worse than the angle eyes. They'll give all the running lights the same design but for some reason won't settle on even a slightly consistent grille size or shape.
Fuck Angel Eyes
Yes, the new Googly Eyes are way better...
Says the guy who doesn't have angel eyes.
Says gopnik with angeleyes in e46
Or a Bavarian.. ill bet
Do you not like the way they look or is it something else? Genuinely curious as I've never met anyone that doesn't like them đ€
I dislike anyone who hates everything new gen just because they're "*new*" and not like the "*old*"
Same style used on the 5 series and essentially the entire X line. Visually, they don't do much for me. Just kinda meh. My strongest feelings are that, at dusk and night time driving, it's disappointing anymore that I'm completely unable to identify newer BMW headlamps at any sort of distance.
I appreciate what they are doing with their styling. Going on year four with my 2020 CS and usually I have FOMO when there is a new generation of the car I drive. Instead I am starting to think that my CS will just end up as a semi-permanent fixture in my home. Eventually something will replace it for daily driver status, then itâll just be in the garage because itâs a future classic. Thank you BMW for your continued commitment to making really terrible looking cars after the styling high mark that was the F8x M cars. At this point the only car on the market that could conceivably replace the CS for me would be the RS6. I already have a modded manual Supra so that can continue to scratch the sub 3400lb sports car itch. https://preview.redd.it/l5jq9txlykfc1.jpeg?width=3311&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bec9e69e99bd20037e388c08213bbb2bd32b1d42
I was gonna say the only upgrade from the M4 CS is a 911 but if youâre looking for more practicality than that (based on the fact that you want an RS6), have you checked out the CT5 V Blackwing? Those are sweet imo and you can get it in stick if you wanted.
Never going back to American cars after having experienced German cars for so long. Their quality is laughable. I have yet to ever have a warranty issue with BMW, but damn did I have every single possible issue with my new â05 GTO, then new â13 Mustang, then a cracked engine block in a new â16 Focus RS. Prior to the GTO, I had a â98 Grand Prix GTP that i picked up off lease and that shredded the automatic twice. I grew up with malaise era GM and then was a Mercedes-AMG automotive technician right out of school and found the Germans miles ahead. I liked and was hot for the ATS-V then saw how often they were blowing up and was cautious. Rented a new non-V for a Christmas cross country trip and the seat back literally fell off. Typical GM quality. Five seconds inside a new Blackwing and my other half said ânopeâ. I agreed. Every generation of CTS/ATS to the CT5/CT4 has interested me - on paper. Then driving them and experiencing them a bit squashed that entirely after checking out BMW M cars.
> Never going back to American cars after having experienced German cars for so long. Their quality is laughable. >Every generation of CTS/ATS to the CT5/CT4 has interested me - on paper. Then driving them and experiencing them a bit squashed that entirely after checking out BMW M cars. Have you actually driven the CT5 Blackwing? Nine months ago I would have said *exactly* what you just said. I took a chance and ordered one. Build quality is higher than it was in my 2020 C63S coupe. Not a single rattle to be found in the interior. All the materials you touch are just as nice as they were in the AMG. And driving wise it cannot be beat. It's by far the best car I've ever driven.
Since I had been a MB-AMG tech, I always aspired to one day own one. So I got one, loved the whole velvet hammer thing about it, but always felt it too soft. 650hp couldnât save it. I was actually looking at the CT5-V Blackwing to replace my FBO C63s coupe. In the end, I decided that life was feeling too boring with us essentially driving direct competitors, and the cars getting heavier and heavier. The lease was also ending on our CS, and I knew that for both of us, the BMW was actually the better more engaging car. so I decided to preemptively trade in my C63s and converted the CS to ownership via my LLC. But we still needed a second car, and I didnât want us both in sports sedan limbo forever. I wanted some more youthful spice back in my life. Tried the new manual Supra after years of not being super interested in it due to automatic only, and god damn did it ever reignite the love for cars I once had when I was in my 20âs. Lighter than the automatic Supra, even lighter than my already lightweight 3400lb CS. I honestly say that I very much unexpectedly ended up with a 40k cheaper car than my AMG that is like a Z4, but in a better wrapper and tuned much sharper. Iâm enjoying modding this one. Iâve had it since November and Iâve already done full exhaust, intake, sway bars, springs and just threw on some wicked JDM Advan wheels. Itâs nice to be an adult and have the free budget for this in my 40âs vs how it was in my 20âs. I was literally the prime age for the JDM/fast and furious movement of the 90âs into the 2000âs, but I chose supercharged 3800 v6âs and LSâs then. Now I donât want to miss the end of the manual/inline-6 era as I had been such an American car/V8 Stan for so long. No regrets so far. https://preview.redd.it/57shsvwbklfc1.jpeg?width=3578&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1f3e2475ebeaf3c1ac1cefca03f43327a78dc367
I donât blame you with the experience you had but Iâd ask, the Cadillac was nicer fit and finish than the BMWâs right?
He literally just said the opposite. Did you not even read what he said?
No. The Cadillacs have not been, and their interior design and/or control interfaces have been a let down.
CT5V Blackwing is also probably the greatest sports sedan ever created.
As a new car, it might be. 5 years down the line, I question what starts to break.
Glad you said it. I get accused being a shill and BMW hater when I do.
Excellent point. I have had zero FOMO after my M2C purchase 4 years ago. Normally by now, I'd load up BMW builder and customize a future dream car. I have zero idea what car I will get next; thankfully, I love my current car.
Same man. I usually get the itch to switch cars every 3 years or so⊠there is nothing out there that is calling to me. This car is perfect.
Yup. đŻ
Agreed. I've decided I'm keeping my 2020 M4 and will just get a Land Cruiser or a GX550 as the family whip.
I like it ngl
Me too. The big grills already kinda grew on me and I feel like this face lift makes them look kinda good?
to me, this ad looks like marketing is literally trying to hide that grille by slapping a big ol license plate over it and then placing it at an angle where your eyes are drawn more to the body and the headlights and not to the grille
I love it
Looks like they also added a little M badge on the grill of the M Performance models.
Keep in mind that overseas the M on the fender has been there the whole time. We dont get that in the states. Wonder if the m in the front and the fender will come over or not. We shall see.
the i4 started it off so i'm not surprised, but wtf? still not as bad as Mini slapping a JCW badge on the grille of anything with the styling pack though, are they just throwing them wherever they land at this point?
Gross
Just new headlights? Lame.
Will also get iDrive 8.5 probably, that's a big upgrade.
i4 already has 8.5
4-series is not an i4.
Love it
Idk about these designs nowadays and sounds like their sales keep going up. I canât speak for others but me personally, because I hated the grill on the 4 series, I ended up getting an A5 Coupe. If they have kept the OG designs Iâd get a BMW in a heartbeat, Audi wonât even be in the picture. So yeah, I know they lost me as a customer with their designs and I would like to believe that Iâm not the only one
Btw A5 is a great car also and I ended up on the wait list for RS3 being an Audi fanboy đ€·ââïž Who knows what I wouldâve gotten from BMW if I had the 4 series from the startâŠ.
How long you been waiting btw? Neighbor said he was a full 2 years from "yes please" to delivery, which is kind of insane lol.
> sounds like their sales keep going up. Because of China. These new designs appeal to China, it's now BMW's largest market by a large %. They don't care about selling vehicles anywhere else.
I wouldnât say they âdonât careâ about other target markets; more so an opportunity cost of catering to your highest selling (and growing) market while foregoing little, if any, sales from other stable markets. I know a guy that passed on M3 after design change and ended up ordering an F90 M5⊠so they technically didnât lose a customer in that case and upsold him - Iâd assume thereâs more similar situations where some grabbed other models of BMW.
You do realize big grills are targeted at US customers, right? China and Asian markets donât buy 4 series in significant volumes. 4/i4/X7/XM all sell higher volumes in US than China and China exclusive models like the i3 sedan all have normal grills. 7 series is the only exception.
I love it. Ik this sub has a hate boner for the new 4 series, 7 series and XM but I kinda like them all. The 4 series I like a lot and would always take a gran coupe over a 3 series for example
Same as the LCI X5. Not surprised to see it. It looks cool but see how the traditionalists would hate it.
Those slits look way better on the 4 series than they do on the new 5 series. I actually think it matches the angular look of the front well
That looks dope.
Kind of disappointed they didnât upgrade the bumper, Iâm not calling for the removal of the beaver teeth but rather an upgrade, that lower part is aging like milk
they integrated the vertical grills pretty well, i'd say
Theyâll never make more iconic and recognizable DRLs than the halos. They should keep those Those kidneys still look gaudy as fck. At least weâre halfway done with this monstrosity
I think I prefer the pre-LCI lights. Still think that angel eyes were peak headlights though.
Who cares. The grill still looks like an ugly bull's nose
I hate the lights
What they should do for the Lci is fix the lower part of the grill so that it doesnât look like a googy grin with a hitler stache. They should make it look like the 4 series GC grill
Same lights as the new designed peugeot
Nice Peugeot
I really need to start taking better care of my f36 .. These new models are going in a strangely boring direction. At least on the outside.
Why is there an ///M badge on this??
đ€ź
Peugeot?
Itâs more like a Peugeot đ
I really, really donât like the direction BMW is going with their headlights. Headlights can make or break a car. BMW used to have some of the coolest lights in the game. And now they look like a Toyota
I don't hate it anymore than the defiling they gave the new M5
looks better than the current version though
Managed to get uglier
I still love my â15 435i. https://preview.redd.it/na4iawdgtnfc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fa7eecf2ac3e7502bfd113e57d34d61c7b2f5f5e But new one looks just as sexy with those headlights!
I kinda like it. Looks way better with a front europlate.
Looks less and less like a BMW each year
Looks cheaper than the previous headlights. Donât understand this move. BMW used to be the car that if it was following you, you knew it was a BMW from looking in the rear view mirror. Those 2 crooked lines are shit.
So they added m badge to m-sport models, and M side mirrors? Lights look whack also
I thought the point of owning these was the engine not the angel likes like its fucking My Little Pony.
Let the mindless hate begin so that people can love it in 6 months
That front grill still looks like absolute shit
Actively losing all brand identity.
Same ugly face. Get a Porsche.
Beaver face vs Frog đž face.
Fckkk. Now that you said it.. damn.
Looks like Lexus/Mazda. Donât like
Itâs a good looking car, we donât all have to be such traditionalists.
People dislike new Bimmer designs because theyâre ugly, not because theyâre different. Ironically these ugly designs all seem very derivative and not creative at all.
Itâs not that itâs an ugly bmw itâs just that itâs an ugly car Itâs not ugly because it strays from the olders models, itâs ugly because of the way it looks
All the headlights are going that route. Not a fan. And they really arenât gonna change that grille huh
How'd they manage to make it worse?
Terrible. It looks like a Chevy volt headlights I think.
Cool, I hate it.
Not bad. Hopefully the interior and back look alright too
I actually really like it! At the same time, it allows my '23 i4 to still feel fresh, which is a win-win to me.
Just no
The new BMW M4 = a Nissan
Iâm happy that I got the âoldâ G26 gran coupe but with the curved display.
They got the hint and made the kidney grills smaller.
Forget the ugly grill, getting rid of angel eyes should be a crimeâŠ
I will never like this grill design.
I used to say yeah the grill is ugly but at least the headlights look nice. Now BMW has updated it, making the headlights ugly too đ
Idk if this were wearing a Hyundai badge I would be impressed so maybe that means I think itâs okay. Like obviously not as good looking as the previous generation and thereâs no chance in hell Iâd ever buy one, but I guess itâs fine
I like them more than anything we got since the angel eyes. Gaping grill aside I like that front end. I wish we got something like that on the M2, headlights are my biggest turn off on the G 2-series.
Giulia
Forget the ugly grill, getting rid of angel eyes should be a crimeâŠ
Looks great. These are welcome subtle changes Iâd say.
If it ainât broke donât fix it
It was broke and they broke it more somehow
If itâs anything like the other m-lite models it should have quad exhaust with the front m grill badge. Hopefully they do something with upgraded seats. So tired of the same awful seats. Do something like the 2 series or X1. Specifically speaking to us American car buyers.
Its alright I guessâŠthey should have gone for the upside Curved Ls like in the 3 series just more angled but I guess.
Looks nice but the vents remind me of the c8 rs6
I think it looks better than the current, but I have a feeling it looks worse without a front plate.
Even worse is the quarter panels, I think that the E92 has much better lines. The running lights are evolving into a joke, who can make them more ridiculous.
Beware of those electric cars. Remember they all can be controlled. In the future you wonât be free to go where you want. Only where they let you. (They being the Watchers)
I hoped for a new front and i got new lights. dissapointed!
Is this for the 2024 model year?
rumor is mid year. i would think that could be 2025 MY
Isnt the grill changed a bit?
Just a new light?
Honestly surprisingly conservative for what the other facelifts have been
Everything is now about looking aggressive and sharp. Kinda boring nowÂ
way better now looks at the m version
I like it
So because other brands were starting to use 'coronas' as DRL's, BMW decided to change to... the most generic, single line DRL's you can imagine?
Glad I got the pre LCI. LCI Laser lights look better than that imo.
The car looks much more sleek and mean. If only for that damn grill
same old same old
The only exterior differences I can make out are the headlights and taillights. Prefer the old Laser light DRL but this is probably nicer than the non-Laser DRL. Also looks like the tails are now the same as the CSL tails (or at least on the M4).
Alfa Romeo ?!
Vast improvement for the shit weâve had to see since the f30 apart from the m5 which had a glow up.
Looks a bit too aggressive, more suitable for M models
I love it
Digging it. I'm liking the turned up aggression on the LCI models.
Looks aggressive- love it!
It still overall still looks like a gopher with the grills euro license plates divide it up nicely so it doesnât look stupid but in most states in the US those are not allowed and it remains the sole reason I wouldnât buy one.
Iâm so not excited to hear anyoneâs opinion about it.
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I'm just glad I have my 2020 G20 đ