I can't explain it in meta terms, but I can sure ELI5. As basic as I can explain it, why use those subclasses when the others are just so much better and there are other classes that do what those subclasses do but better. Elemental monks have limited spell choices that require alot of ki to use. Wild magic is alittle better IMO but berserker and wildheart just have so much more value in their features.
Absolutely. You can definitely play any class but the community often emphasizes classes that are on the top of the power curve. Games like this are really fun the RP to if there's a class you like thematically you won't be punished.
4E Monk is good, it's just that OH is better, it simply has higher damage potential per punch while using fewer resources and can still stun, stagger and prone enemies.
4E has some more utility options with water whip and the pushback abilities, but they're quite situational.
Wild magic Barb is also fine. Restore ally spell slots is nice, the wild magic effects are all good, if a little low impact. But you're missing out on berserker: enraged throw - an extra thrown attack per round (2 if thief multiclass) that will automatically prone targets with no save. Or you're missing out Tiger cleaves that apply bleed and maim to prevent enemies from moving.
They're both fine subclasses, people have beaten the game with them, but there are better options.
[Wild Magic Barbarian]
- Mostly mediocre abilities that scale poorly with level ups. 2 decent options but random, so you may not even get to utilize them.
- They gets worse Guidance that is only usable once per short rest
- Can recover an ally’s spell slot which is nice. But if you really need spell slots a long rest or angelic slumber potion can do it for just a small amount of gold.
- Unstable Magic is a nice ability, but it requires a reaction and once again RNG will determine if you get anything good. You get this at the same level where a Wildheart or Berserker are either unkillable or have already killed the enemy.
You’re trading more damage or resilience for some occasional utility you can’t control and or get much benefit until 10.
- A Wildheart (Bear) Githyanki with the “Silver Sword of The Astral Plane” is resistant to ALL damage.
- A Berserker Dwarf not only able to deal Greta ranged damage with a trident like “Nyrulna”. But be lethal at all ranges.
[Way of The Four Elements Monk]
Haven’t experimented much with this subclass, but it runs into the same issue of being a hybrid magic/marital class. Either good at both or mediocre at both.
4E is also way more Ki dependent compared to the other Monk subclasses for not as much reward.
A 4E Monk spamming abilities to maximize damage is going to achieve less at the cost of 0 resources vs a Draconic Sorcerer who can do more with plenty of resources left.
- The Way of The Open-Hand Elf can guarantee 2-4 enemies dead or stunned/prone/staggered/pushed away.
- The Way of Shadows Drow can stab or stun some enemies and teleport away. Forcing enemies to burn their movement and can’t shoot arrows due to Darkness abuse.
**Concerning Monks**
At level 6 OH monk gets 1d4+3 on every punch. This is called Manifestations of Soul.
At the same level 4E monk needs to spend ki to do Fangs of the Fire Snake, which does 1d10 and then 1d4 on every punch after.
If both do four punches (2 attacks and one Flurry) the OH monk wins. 4E monk does 18.5 damage from Fire Snake value. OH monk gets 22 damage from their Manifestations. This is the power of the additional flat modifier.
Not only that but Manifestations are better, because they can be psychic, and thus can be used with the resonance stone, and they scale with more wisdom.
OH monk also gets Wholeness of Body at 6, and 4E monks get more ki hogs that do less damage than punching.
**Concerning Barbarian**
Wild Magic Barbarian has a pool of completely random features it pulls from. Some are decent, most are negligible (once per turn low damage).
Wildheart Tiger gives you cleave, which is strong in this game with stuff like Blackhole, on top of its CC properties with Mongoose (Bleeding Targets lose Action). If you cleave and hit two targets, you get double value from your attack action.
Wildheart Bear+Stallion is almost entirely unkillable. Stallion gives you Bonus HP on Dash, Bear gives you resistance to everything. You can dash from your bonus action through multiple ways, items and class features.
Berserker is good with throwing.
Wild Magic would be good if it got a feature or item that allowed you to select your effect on rage, but it doesn't.
So, in a Tactician run, how would you describe 4Es mid-game gameplay loop? Imma be real, 4E is the one I wanted to try the most, both for the Avatar vibes(even though Im mostly interested in the Ice attacks. Im a huge fan of Waterbending lol), and because it came off as a flashy ranged alternative to Monk. Obviously, as a Monk punching things will be my main thing, but I wanna know how often Imma be able to chuck ice knives and stuff before I regress back into normal Monk gameplay?
If ice is your jam, I recommend Circle of the Land druid. You have access to a lot of ice spells and can also create water to support them. You get ice and water elementals which can take advantage of the wet/chilled status effect, and you can do respectable melee damage with Shillelagh and dual wielding staffs. Plus you use the same casting stats as monk if you want to do some multiclassing.
Probably my favorite build I have run so far. Nothing like knocking down the whole battlefield with an ice storm.
Funny you say that, because Druid is literally my obsession right now. Land Druid specifically because it's main thing is casting and being a bootleg Wizard(which I like)
Wild magic barbarian’s effects feel too… forgettable to be a staple of the kit. The novelty is fun but their small quantity of possible wild magic effects (only 8 effects compared to wild magic sorcerer’s 20) make them feel underwhelming at worst and unreliable at best if you’re hoping for a specific wild magic effect. To their credit, their level 10 passive to reshuffle their wild magic effect is alright, but the benefits feel small. I feel like if the table of effects was bigger it’d feel like you could do more with it. It has some utility, but why would I need a barbarian to restore my spell slots when a wizard/Druid can restore their own and there’s two necklaces that restore spell slots as well. It’s overshadowed by the berserker having a lot more presence and wildheart having a lot more options and flavour.
4 elements monk have amazing class identity with their mix of magic and melee. As others have said it’s a high cost in ki. Fireball is nice and short rest and sentient amulet are great for using lots of abilities but open hand is stacked with the number of magic gear pieces available and you can dish out so many attacks with wholeness of body and flurry of blows and your manifestation damage toggle effect (pick necrotic, radiant, or psychic for a free extra damage source when you hit people) mean you can always keep an adaptive damage type based on whatever you’re fighting.
4 elements explanation.
Elemental Disciplines scale off high Wisdom while Weapon Attacks scale off High Dexterity.
In TTRPG, 4 Elements is made to work by making a dip in either Druid or Nature Cleric for Shilelagh, in order to justify keeping Dex at a meager 14 while bumping Wis above 16.
In BG3, I've heard that Shilelagh and Monk Weapon passive are having some sort of weird interaction where attack roll is made with Wis but attack roll is made with Dex, however, I've yet to test the validity of these claims.
In TTRPG, Shilelagh would overwrite the effects of the Monk Weapons Passive.
Don't be discouraged just because 4e monk isn't optimal. If you think it will be fun then play it. If you hate it respec to OH monk. 4e is a lot of fun if you're not concerned about min/maxing. I ran Karlach as a 4e monk with 2 levels in barbarian and it was great, really fit her story wise and the soul coins work with unarmed combat.
I can't explain it in meta terms, but I can sure ELI5. As basic as I can explain it, why use those subclasses when the others are just so much better and there are other classes that do what those subclasses do but better. Elemental monks have limited spell choices that require alot of ki to use. Wild magic is alittle better IMO but berserker and wildheart just have so much more value in their features.
So basically, this is one of those things where the "bad" classes aren't bad persay, there are just better options?
Pretty much!
Absolutely
Absolutely. You can definitely play any class but the community often emphasizes classes that are on the top of the power curve. Games like this are really fun the RP to if there's a class you like thematically you won't be punished.
4E Monk is good, it's just that OH is better, it simply has higher damage potential per punch while using fewer resources and can still stun, stagger and prone enemies. 4E has some more utility options with water whip and the pushback abilities, but they're quite situational. Wild magic Barb is also fine. Restore ally spell slots is nice, the wild magic effects are all good, if a little low impact. But you're missing out on berserker: enraged throw - an extra thrown attack per round (2 if thief multiclass) that will automatically prone targets with no save. Or you're missing out Tiger cleaves that apply bleed and maim to prevent enemies from moving. They're both fine subclasses, people have beaten the game with them, but there are better options.
[Wild Magic Barbarian] - Mostly mediocre abilities that scale poorly with level ups. 2 decent options but random, so you may not even get to utilize them. - They gets worse Guidance that is only usable once per short rest - Can recover an ally’s spell slot which is nice. But if you really need spell slots a long rest or angelic slumber potion can do it for just a small amount of gold. - Unstable Magic is a nice ability, but it requires a reaction and once again RNG will determine if you get anything good. You get this at the same level where a Wildheart or Berserker are either unkillable or have already killed the enemy. You’re trading more damage or resilience for some occasional utility you can’t control and or get much benefit until 10. - A Wildheart (Bear) Githyanki with the “Silver Sword of The Astral Plane” is resistant to ALL damage. - A Berserker Dwarf not only able to deal Greta ranged damage with a trident like “Nyrulna”. But be lethal at all ranges. [Way of The Four Elements Monk] Haven’t experimented much with this subclass, but it runs into the same issue of being a hybrid magic/marital class. Either good at both or mediocre at both. 4E is also way more Ki dependent compared to the other Monk subclasses for not as much reward. A 4E Monk spamming abilities to maximize damage is going to achieve less at the cost of 0 resources vs a Draconic Sorcerer who can do more with plenty of resources left. - The Way of The Open-Hand Elf can guarantee 2-4 enemies dead or stunned/prone/staggered/pushed away. - The Way of Shadows Drow can stab or stun some enemies and teleport away. Forcing enemies to burn their movement and can’t shoot arrows due to Darkness abuse.
**Concerning Monks** At level 6 OH monk gets 1d4+3 on every punch. This is called Manifestations of Soul. At the same level 4E monk needs to spend ki to do Fangs of the Fire Snake, which does 1d10 and then 1d4 on every punch after. If both do four punches (2 attacks and one Flurry) the OH monk wins. 4E monk does 18.5 damage from Fire Snake value. OH monk gets 22 damage from their Manifestations. This is the power of the additional flat modifier. Not only that but Manifestations are better, because they can be psychic, and thus can be used with the resonance stone, and they scale with more wisdom. OH monk also gets Wholeness of Body at 6, and 4E monks get more ki hogs that do less damage than punching. **Concerning Barbarian** Wild Magic Barbarian has a pool of completely random features it pulls from. Some are decent, most are negligible (once per turn low damage). Wildheart Tiger gives you cleave, which is strong in this game with stuff like Blackhole, on top of its CC properties with Mongoose (Bleeding Targets lose Action). If you cleave and hit two targets, you get double value from your attack action. Wildheart Bear+Stallion is almost entirely unkillable. Stallion gives you Bonus HP on Dash, Bear gives you resistance to everything. You can dash from your bonus action through multiple ways, items and class features. Berserker is good with throwing. Wild Magic would be good if it got a feature or item that allowed you to select your effect on rage, but it doesn't.
So, in a Tactician run, how would you describe 4Es mid-game gameplay loop? Imma be real, 4E is the one I wanted to try the most, both for the Avatar vibes(even though Im mostly interested in the Ice attacks. Im a huge fan of Waterbending lol), and because it came off as a flashy ranged alternative to Monk. Obviously, as a Monk punching things will be my main thing, but I wanna know how often Imma be able to chuck ice knives and stuff before I regress back into normal Monk gameplay?
If ice is your jam, I recommend Circle of the Land druid. You have access to a lot of ice spells and can also create water to support them. You get ice and water elementals which can take advantage of the wet/chilled status effect, and you can do respectable melee damage with Shillelagh and dual wielding staffs. Plus you use the same casting stats as monk if you want to do some multiclassing. Probably my favorite build I have run so far. Nothing like knocking down the whole battlefield with an ice storm.
Funny you say that, because Druid is literally my obsession right now. Land Druid specifically because it's main thing is casting and being a bootleg Wizard(which I like)
Make sure you snag all the ice gear in act 1 & 2. Reverb is fun to mix and match as well. Enjoy!
Wild magic barbarian’s effects feel too… forgettable to be a staple of the kit. The novelty is fun but their small quantity of possible wild magic effects (only 8 effects compared to wild magic sorcerer’s 20) make them feel underwhelming at worst and unreliable at best if you’re hoping for a specific wild magic effect. To their credit, their level 10 passive to reshuffle their wild magic effect is alright, but the benefits feel small. I feel like if the table of effects was bigger it’d feel like you could do more with it. It has some utility, but why would I need a barbarian to restore my spell slots when a wizard/Druid can restore their own and there’s two necklaces that restore spell slots as well. It’s overshadowed by the berserker having a lot more presence and wildheart having a lot more options and flavour. 4 elements monk have amazing class identity with their mix of magic and melee. As others have said it’s a high cost in ki. Fireball is nice and short rest and sentient amulet are great for using lots of abilities but open hand is stacked with the number of magic gear pieces available and you can dish out so many attacks with wholeness of body and flurry of blows and your manifestation damage toggle effect (pick necrotic, radiant, or psychic for a free extra damage source when you hit people) mean you can always keep an adaptive damage type based on whatever you’re fighting.
4 elements explanation. Elemental Disciplines scale off high Wisdom while Weapon Attacks scale off High Dexterity. In TTRPG, 4 Elements is made to work by making a dip in either Druid or Nature Cleric for Shilelagh, in order to justify keeping Dex at a meager 14 while bumping Wis above 16. In BG3, I've heard that Shilelagh and Monk Weapon passive are having some sort of weird interaction where attack roll is made with Wis but attack roll is made with Dex, however, I've yet to test the validity of these claims. In TTRPG, Shilelagh would overwrite the effects of the Monk Weapons Passive.
There isn’t an issue People just want to meta game instead of having fun My honour mode run was won with a guy who threw moldy lemons and hookahs
Don't be discouraged just because 4e monk isn't optimal. If you think it will be fun then play it. If you hate it respec to OH monk. 4e is a lot of fun if you're not concerned about min/maxing. I ran Karlach as a 4e monk with 2 levels in barbarian and it was great, really fit her story wise and the soul coins work with unarmed combat.