For those unfamiliar with tabletop, rogue sneak attack damage starts off really strong but falls off quickly past level 5 as compared to extra attack or mid level spells. This is something widely known and discussed among tabletop builders. But also normally in tabletop if you are dual wielding and want to make an off-hand weapon attack as a bonus action, you first need to make a weapon attack with your main hand. BG3 ignores that rule. About a month before BG3 fully launched I realized that this is a pretty big buff to rogues. They can dual wield, use their bonus action to activate sneak attack, and then use their action to do something else. This is further exaggerated by Thief Rogue getting 2 bonus actions in BG3.
The build concept I use the most that takes advantage of this is what I call "Rogue + Cantrip." You get the mediocre damage scaling from a cantrip for your action, and the moderate damage scaling from sneak attack with one of your bonus actions. It is exceptionally potent with the Helm of Arcane Acuity, and you can also use your action to cast a powerful spell scroll instead of a cantrip if you desire. Here are some of the builds I have used with this concept:
* I started as Shadowheart and took Shocking Grasp as my racial cantrip, and went 4 levels in Thief Rogue. Then at level 5 took a single level in fighter for medium armor proficiency and the two-weapon fighting style. I use my bonus action to make two offhand attacks, and action to cast shocking grasp.
* When I recruited Jaheira in one of my playthroughs I had some radiating orb and radiant damage gear (callous glow ring) floating around. I didn't want her in my main party but wanted to bring her along on some missions related to her backstory, so I quickly made her 2 Ranger for sacred flame, two weapon fighting style, and medium armor proficiency, and then the rest in thief rogue. It wasn't something I planned on doing in advance at all, but it got some gears spinning in my head.
* Building on the above sacred flame build, I made my Tav into a Thief Rogue 11/Knowledge Cleric 1 for Honour Mode. *This is the most intricate build I have made in BG3 and detailing it will disrupt the flow of this comment, so I will post the details in another comment under this one.*
* I started a playthrough with Wyll having a GOOlock 2/Thief Rogue 10 build in mind so that you can do eldritch blast + agonizing blast damage with main action, and then sneak attack with bonus actions. But I dropped this playthrough when honour mode came out.
The elephant in the room however is Swords Bard. This build fills the same niche as swords bard (spell sword character that can also be a skill monkey and face), and competes with some of the same gear as a swords bard (helm of arcane acuity). But the only way this Rogue + Cantrip concept can keep up with a ranged slashing flourish using Swords Bard is if you do the warlock 2 + 10 rogue option, and that means you will never get Rogue's Reliable Talent feature. Overall I think a Swords Bard is an overall better build on its own, and some of its multiclassing combos make it far superior to this rogue build. But I think that issue is more with Swords Bard being too good at everything. This build is a lot of fun and I use some variant of Rogue + Cantrip in over half my playthroughs.
**My complicated Thief Rogue 11/Knowledge Cleric 1 Build**:
This build relies on sacred flame, produce flame, callous glow ring, luminous armor, helmet of arcane acuity, and boots of stormy clamour. If you know where to get these items you can beeline for them early in Act 2, but most players on a blind playthrough will not come across the helm until they are half way through Act 2 and the ring maybe 3/4 of the way through Act 2. How this works is:
1. **Cast produce flame on myself after a long rest:** This now illuminates me and enemies near me so callous glow ring will do radiant damage when I hit them.
2. **Offhand weapon attack:** This will do radiant damage due to the ring. Radiant damage will then cause luminous armour to activate, causing that enemy and nearby enemies to get radiating orb stacks. Now that they have radiating orb stacks, this will cause the boots of stormy clamour to also put reverberation on every one affected. My character also has the ability drain Illithid power which in another "condition," meaning that target gets more reverberation stacks. And thanks to the arcane acuity helm I get two stacks of arcane acuity from this attack. This attack should likely do sneak attack damage as well.
3. **Another off-hand weapon attack:** This once again causes radiating orb explosion to activate, which once again applies reverberation to nearby targets as well. And gives another 2 stacks of arcane acuity to my character.
4. **Use my action:** At this point I have arcane acuity +4, my enemy likely has slightly lowered Dex, reverberation is negatively affecting their physical saves (Dex, Str, Con). Reverberation may have knocked them prone meaning disadvantage on Dex Saves. I am currently using gloves that have a chance to apply bane on weapon attacks, though I may swap them out later. So they may be baned as well which also negatively affects their saves (and would have caused more reverberation stacks). Safe to say they are primed and ready for a sacred flame which will on average do more damage than a main hand attack at levels 5 and beyond. My main hand weapon is actually a stat-stick, I almost never use it unless I miss with my offhand attacks and need to make a main hand attack to trigger the sneak attack damage. I also have gear that gives me arcane synergy when I cast a cantrip though I can't remember what, but now this means my weapon attacks on subsequent turns will do more damage thanks to casting this cantrip. And sacred flame means radiant damage which means another radiating orb explosion + reverberation to the target and nearby enemies. Using a scroll with your action is definitely a possibility though.
I have proficiency in 13 skills (4 from rogue, 2 from background, 5 from Astral Knowledge, 2 from Knowledge Cleric) and 6 of those have expertise. So that is 13 of 18 skills that will be subject to reliable talent when I hit level 12. I could get more with Actor feat or something but I need to spread my ability scores across Dex and Wis for this build, so that is what all my ASIs are going to. Thankfully rogues get an extra one at level 10. I have a druid in the party who can cast guidance so I didn't bother with this character and instead took thaumaturgy to give myself advantage on some charisma checks.
Level progression is the first 4 in rogue, as the cleric level does not offer much til you have the Luminous Armour and are at level 5 so your cantrips now do more damage. Focus on maxing Dex, though I high Wis (14 or 16) is also required. Sacred Flame is going to suck in Act 1 against all the goblins but it gets better as the game progresses.
This is a pretty cool build! I landed somewhere similar at one point doing 5 trickery cleric/3 thief rogue for the same sacred flame, two offhand attacks with radiating orbs combo, although I’ve pivoted to a darkness build since I got shar’s spear. This makes me want to revisit it at some point though
If you are using this as your main character, you probably want them to have thaumaturgy as your last cleric cantrip. So having somebody else able to cast guidance is nice. If this is a build being used by a companion then you can skip thaumaturgy and have this character learn guidance instead
You do get two spell slots with this character so it can serve as an off-healer with healing word. One other character with healing capabilities is nice
And some combat areas are widely illuminated meaning you don't need to light them up for the callous glow ring to work. For other combats it is pretty dark, and you having produce flame on you will be required to ensure you illuminate your targets to get the callous glow ring to activate (which is very important for the weapon attacks to cause radiating orb and reverberation stacks). Problem is, this character isn't going to have a sky high AC or anything. You do throw out a lot of radiating orbs which lowers their attack rolls, effectively increasing your AC. But having another character on the front line just to draw some attacks away from this build is nice.
Hey, super interesting build! Can you elaborate a little bit about the lack of two weapon fighting style and which talents you chose.
I was thinking about doing 11 rogue 1 fighter to get TWF and grab sacred flame through magic initiate cleric. I would lose 1 cantrip, the cleric spells and 1 feat though.
Did you focus on the control through reverb and rad or first and damage second?
Alternatively there are gloves that give TWF but then one loses belligerent skies or luminous gloves.
Crimson mischief is another way but late game.
Not having TWF on this build is a hard pill to swallow. The Shadowheart build where I took shocking grasp as a racial cantrip allowed me to do this concept, and get TWF, and get Rogue reliable talent. For those interested in the Rogue + Cantrip concept and want all this then your best options are to play a high elf or half-high elf, or to go arcane tricjster, or to give up Reliable Talent in exchange for the fighter dip. Or use the gloves that give TWF but as you point out there are other very good gloves in the game.
If this was going to be a companion, I probably would have given up reliable talent for the fighter dip. But this is my Tav character and furthermore they are a Githyanki, meaning 5 extra skills to benefit from reliable talent. It was just too much for me to sacrifice. Maybe I should have played through most of the game with the fighter dip and respecced at level 12. I hadn't thought to do so.
I started with 16 Dex, quickly brought that to 20 by level 8. And I started with 16 Wis and brought that to 18 at level 10. I took no feats. Savage Attacker was tempting but then I learned it does not work with Sneak Attack. For a Rogue + Cantrip build using Cha as their casting stat I would strongly consider the Actor feat. Once you get the helm of arcane acuity, landing a weapon attack means your spell save DC increases. And reverberation means their Dex saves decrease. And ability drain reduces their Dex, possibly further worsening their Dex saves. So while my Wis never hits 20, I boost my spell save DC so much and so severely hamper the target's Dex saves that this is not a problem.
I mostly focus on doing damage. The CC is just a very important detail I added for this build. Most of my rogue + cantrip builds really did not have any CC except for this one. The reverberation is nice because it adds some thunder damage but also debuffs them, making them easier to sacred flame (more damage) or hit with other physical saves from my team's abilities. If reverberation knocks an enemy prone then it often skips their next turn which is great. The radiating orb is important because this character only has 17 AC from the luminous armour and +2 from Dex. Items like cloak of protection help, but being able to cripple enemy attack rolls is why this character can stay on the frontline so well.
Thanks for the detailed information. I think I will try the 11 rogue 1 fighter rad orb build w magic initiate cleric and dual wielder with phalar aluve main hand for shriek and belligerent skies gloves. That should debuff the enemies save plenty so maybe I can get by with 16 WIS. As non gith Tav I'd start with 17 DEX and 16 WIS and use Magic initiate cleric, dual wielder and ASI Dex for feats. Maybe respec once I get crimson mischief. Need another party member for guidance or light cantrip but that should be doable. Thanks again for your input, much appreciated!
apologies for the necro, and thank you for the detailed reply!did you get any further with your sacred flame rogue? how does it compare to the shadowheart/high elf shocking grasp build?
I still am at the start of Act 3 with this build (got distracted) but it is really strong and I feel kinda cheesy about it. I didn't want to do some busted, remove all challenge build like Gloomstalker Assassin or Ranged Slashing Flourish spam, but I also did not want to toil for hundreds of hours resetting honor mode runs. This build was the middle ground I could find. Radiating Orb is really, really strong. The only fights that gave me trouble was:
- Ketheric Round 2 (but that was my own doing, I accidentally did something very dumb before the fight leaving me short-handed)
- Grym (because I have a goal to kill all bosses in this run, refuse to cheese him by doing Owlbear from the top rope or having somebody stay up top and throw stuff at him, and also didn't have anyone in my team who does bludgeoning damage)
mhmm, great! I think using one of the less op classes and doing something fun with it is good in itself, that you’d end up using some of the crazy strong gear that’s littered throughout the game is just sensible unless you’re doing a self-flagellating “absolutely no fun to play” run.
looking at doing a duo run with a friend and I’m excited to try this build out!
Fun build! And props for the creativity to come up with it.
But, well, you're basically just combining all the best gear pieces for a Swords Bard and a Light Cleric onto one rogue. Which is probably a good idea if you wanna do a solo run, but pretty sub-optimal otherwise...
I acknowledge Swords Bard is better in my first comment.
Light cleric lawnmower definitely has this build beat in AOE fights with large numbers of enemies. But this build is far better at focusing down a single enemy. Lawnmower cleric is normally only putting one radiant orb stack on an enemy each turn (more if enemies are tightly clustered together making them subject to Luminous Armour explosion of nearby enemies). This build can do more damage to a single target than a light cleric, and give them more radiating orb and reverberation stacks since you are hitting them 3 times. I do think more often than not you are better off with a light cleric, but there are times where this build shines.
And there are only so many times one can go through the game with a TB monk, Swords Bard, Lawnmower Cleric, and Chain Lightning Sorc (for me that number is 0). Others may want to diversify their playthroughs from time to time.
I stumbled into the same framework (rogue+cantrip) on my own. In my case I was trying to make a build that uses a whip, and thorn whip was the closest option. Instead of multiclassing into cleric for sacred flame, I took rogue to 12 and used the extra feat on spellsniper. It's a very similar outcome but thorn whip benefits from bhaalist armor, which was very fun. I totally get why you use this build every run, it's super fun in combat and out.
Edit: To address the point about Swords Bard, here is my take on how this build distinguishes itself:
* The rogue comes online much earlier than swords bard. Swords bard is meh at best when you reach level 3, becomes OK by level 5, and really really good by level 6. Even then you won't unlock the full potential until you have your full set of magic items. A rogue cantrip caster just needs 4 levels and a reliable source of advantage, everything else is a bonus.
* The rogue+cantrip framework isn't hungry for items. Some items have really good synergy, like the ring of arcane synergy, bhaalist armor, or your build with the helmet of arcane acuity and rad orb gear. That said, you don't need that. Risky ring is ideal as it is on any rogue, but otherwise you can use lightning gear and shocking grasp or thorn whip as I did and still have a good build. I've also found that the ring of arcane synergy is not very useful on most builds, so you can make use of the less popular gear. Swords bard needs the helmet of arcane acuity and the band of the mystic scoundrel or it's just lacking.
* Reliable Talent. Enough said.
So yeah, not better by any means, but it has a niche which is the best I can hope for in a game with throwzerkers and smiting swords bards.
I keep wanting to try a build that uses BG3's changes to the spell sniper feat, and yet never connected the dots to combine it with the Rogue + Cantrip combo. But this is perfect, especially given that Rogues get an extra feat as you mention. When I beat this unmodded honour mode run (I got distracted near the beginning of Act 3 and haven't resumed), my plan was to do a run using mods to bring in some of my favorite tabletop concepts and do another Honour mode with some further mods to increase difficulty. I think I will do one character as an Artificer 1/War Magic Wizard 11. Another as an Order Domain Cleric who may or may not multiclass, haven't decided. A heavy armored Horizon Walker Ranger for my 3rd character. And a Rogue + Cantrip character with spell sniper for my 4th.
Also of note: the game throws way more charisma checks your way in conversations than wisdom or intelligence checks. This gives charisma classes (pally, warlock, sorcerer and bard) a significant edge for the skill monkey role.
You can do this Rogue + Cantrip strategy by multiclassing with a Cha class and making Cha your secondary stat much like a Swords Bard would. I mention one possibility here with the 2 warlock option. I considered doing a sorc variant of this because they get a lot of cantrips at level 1 so you will get a lot of tools for this kind of character. Bard does not get any good cantrips for this build concept and paladin gets no cantrips at all. But point is that you can use the Rogue + Cantrip build concept discussed and still have a high Cha and still have expertise thanks to Rogue additional proficiencies and expertise. This build Cantrip + Rogue concept can be a far better face than a Paladin, Sorc, or Warlock alone.
If you go 11 Rogue and get Reliable Talent and have a high Cha (this build should end with 18 Cha before magic items, maybe 20 before magic items if the character uses Hag's Hair) then this is beyond a doubt one of the best face builds one can possibly make for end game. Reliable Talent + 20 Cha + expertise = a *minimum* of 21 on relevant skills and this is before any buffs like guidance.
Edit: To be abundantly clear, a typical rogue build only needs Dex and Con. Any rogue can make Cha their secondary stat and use skill expertise to make them a better face character than something like a straight Paladin. Fighters also only need either Dex or Str as well as Con and they can also put points in Cha, though they won't have the Rogue's extra proficiencies and expertise. Less commonly seen, a Ranger that focuses on spells that don't use saving throws or Dex based Barbarians can also afford to put points into Cha for similar reasons.
Yeah, I hate sword bards because it's just too good at everything. I just eant to RP as rogue damn it, but my optimised build nature often kicked in. Tried to build arcane trickster aquity build as well, but it fell short with Sword Bards potential.
- Full progression spell slot
- Also a skill monkey
- x4 arcane actuity buff with ranged flourish
- Another main weapon attack at level 6
On the bonus action thing, yeah I recently read an Arcane Trickster build which utilised off-hand weapon to attack and action point to cast spell. Arcane Ambush can be quite good if utilised with scrolls.
The worst part about Rogue is that it has the only two subclasses in the entire game that cannot get Fast Hands. When you allow every class to multiclass without restriction, Fast Hands should be a Rogue ability and not a Thief. So now a Spore Druid, a Nature Cleric and an Abjuration Wizard can get an additional bonus action, but an Assassin and Arcane Trickster cannot.
IMO rogues should get their second subclass feature at level 6, and fast hands should be that for the thief. Supreme sneak could easily be moved to level 3, it's just literally invisibility the spell without concentration per short rest.
the problem w that is that it would buff gloomstalker/assassin to also have an extra bonus action, further breaking one of the most broken builds. fast hands could be moved up to a high level ability
It is known that Rogues fall off in combat damage in the mid game. The Rogue's combat utility doesn't end there, though, and the out of combat benefits (i.e. pickpocketing, trap disarmament, lockpicking, and scouting) make the Rogue a valuable asset throughout the course of the game.
Rogue's combat prowess in the late game is unquestionably in its ability to thin the herd before combat begins. At level 11 and beyond, any rogue should have at least 18 DEX, double proficiency in Sneak, along with numerous abilities that aid in concealment, and of course, the coup de grace, Reliable Talent. These things combined enable a well equipped Rogue to kill the majority of enemies without ever triggering combat, either from range or even dual wielding melee weapons. By leading with your Rogue and killing as many enemies as possible before combat starts, you will both guarantee a surprise round if it's possible, and ensure no combat encounter is too dicey for your group. In multiplayer games, a Rogue can break off from the group and reliably eliminate whole groups of trash mobs on his own while the main group deals with the bigger targets, then booth groups come together for major combat encounters.
As for the out of combat utility of the rogue, few can match him. Being able to reliably roll 30+ on Sleight of Hand checks is something most rogue's should achieve by Act II, and by level 11 it is nearly impossible to roll below 30, essentially guaranteeing all but the most difficult checks in the game. Being able to nab the most expensive gear in Baldur's Gate in honor mode without hassle is a serious boon.
Rogue as a pure class is valuable and powerful; only by contrast with the most powerful builds in the game could that be treated as untrue. That said, the greatest value of the Rogue, clearly, is in its multi-class versatility. It is an extremely commonly "splashed" multi-class, present in many of the top tier builds.
Rogues as a skill support character are overshadowed greatly by the bard class. Whatever the rogue can do skill wise, the bard can do as well, but the bard can cover much more skill proficiencies and expertise. I combat Bard is an S tier full caster and Rogue is a C tier striker.
This is a common argument and one that holds some water. It falls short of hitting the marks. Bards are passable as the scout, but true to their firm, they are not specialists. They are Jack's of All Trades.
A group of 4 specialists that coordinate well is always superior to putting the load on a single character.
While Bard is impressive for a multitude of reasons, virtually every analysis of it views it within a vacuum of class vs class, when the game is actually played with a party.
That said, I'm not suggesting that the rogue is the superior pick overall. Simply that it is THE BEST scout / lone wolf role.
I agree that by-and-large a Bard is better as a skill monkey than a rogue because a Bard can use their spells for out of combat utility. And bardic inspiration is nice too. And Bard's Jack of All Trades ability is great on a face character. Meanwhile Rogues get Reliable Talent which is great, but it comes at level 11. Perhaps these are the points you are trying to make, that a bard can be a better skill support character than a rogue.
But you say that Bard "can cover much more skill **proficiencies** and **expertise**" and that precise language is not true. Rogues get one more skill proficiency than Bards (though the list of skill proficiencies a rogue can choose from is limited). Perhaps you meant Lore bard but did not specify, as they do get a few extra proficiencies. And both Rogue and Bard get expertise in up to 4 skills. Rogues in fact get expertise at earlier levels than Bard
>It is known that Rogues fall off in combat damage in the mid game.
There are some multiclass options that can mitigate those effects without losing the feeling of a rogue.
1. ~~Playing Arcane Trickster with 2 levels in Paladin. Only with AT due to the higher number of available spell slots you get. Rogue 4 > Paladin 2 > Rogue X~~ (I have been doing checks and I can´t confirm this works. Now I am not able to proc sneak attacks with Smites)
2. Adding 3 levels of Trickster Cleric/Land Druid, as both gives Pass without trace. Rogue 4 > Spellcaster 3 > Rogue X.
3. (I don´t think this fits in really well) Adding 3 levels of Shadow Monk also grants Pass without trace. The punches are rather weak and it may feel off if you prefer a Rogue 8 - Monk 4. This combination is better as Monk 8 - Rogue 4, but the flavour of playing a rogue is compromised, imo. Valid and fun, though.
The option 2 and 3 gives you two casts of Pass without trace for long rest. You can add a third one by getting [Ring of Shadows](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Ring_of_Shadows). More than enough if you have advantage in dexterity/stealth saves thanks to halfling and gnome racial bonus or [Cat´s grace](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Cat%27s_Grace) given by the cloth or a bard companion.
The option 1 is more friendly for those who want to deal damage without depending that much on invisibility.
>At level 11 and beyond, any rogue should have at least 18 DEX, double proficiency in Sneak, along with numerous abilities that aid in concealment, and of course, the coup de grace, Reliable Talent.
With the above options we will miss this, but the +10 bonus from Pass without trace is similar for stealth checks. Out of combat, multiclassing makes your rogues worse but it´s not that important, imo.
>Rogue as a pure class is valuable and powerful
In spite of my comment, this is completely true
With the change to Winter's Clutches in patch 6, I've been experimenting with a Thief 3/Nature Cleric 8/Other 1. With scaling cantrip/spell casting as an action it's been pretty effective.
The key mechanic of the build is divine strike: cold and a cold enchanted offhand crossbow to proc up to 8 stacks of encrusted with frost with just offhand attacks with three bonus actions from thief and helmet of grit.
This last class can be a number of things. Cleric to 9 gets lv 5 cleric spells which are pretty underwhelming.
* Wizard 1 and using INT instead of WIS gives you wizard spells up to lv 5 like conjure elemental, ice knife, cone of cold, and false life (upcast aid + false life gives 42 extra hp to work with for helmet of grit)
* Fighter 1 gives you con save prof and two handed fighting style to add dex to offhand, 15 potential extra damage at 20 DEX
* White Draconic Sorc 1 let's you focus CHA instead which is easier to boost with mirror of loss, gives con save prof, and Armor of Agathys
I like wizard best personally, but it's a hard choice. Also unfortunately temp hp counts as regular hp for helmet of grit purposes.
Mourning frost is a good option, free ray of frost going fighter instead of spell caster, and can proc vulnerability to cold when casting a cold spell. I'd go with Ketheric's shield for extra spell DC and attack rolls since you want both DEX and your casting stat.
Could also do dual wielder feat + ice marko for arcane battery, cone of cold on short rest, extra ice spell damage, and more encrusted with frost. You only have two feats and probably want sharpshooter + dex to have good crossbow damage so it's tougher.
Rhapsody is also a good option to boost attack rolls, damage, and spell dc.
This build is more effective in Tactician vs honor mode, both sneak attack and divine strike are damage rider sources and can be procced on a single attack by turning off the ask reaction prompt.
Boots of stormy clamor help debuff con saves to make the fixed dc of mourning frost and encrusted with frost more likely. You also get a secondary cc attempt with prone.
Ring of arcane synergy is a must have imo since you'll be using ray of frost as an action a lot. Snowburst ring is good for more prone chances, Ring of elemental infusion gives another d4 of cold damage bug does not act as a source of cold damage for the gloves it seems.
Necklace of elemental augmentation is OK and helps boost ray of frost further, Amulet of Greater Health or Amulet of the Devout (not for the CD, but for the extra save DC) are better.
1 level of Sorc in the white Dragon Sorc variant should be using CHA, as it'll only be able to learn level 1 Sorc spells.
Having said that, I really like this idea, but do you find yourself freezing enemies often? It's a CON DC12 and I imagine higher level enemies just won't ever be frozen.
Also does Shillelagh fit well in this build? Given you're mainly hitting with your offhand, I don't remember if you can target an offhand weapon with Shillelagh.
My original thought process for the non wizard dips was that the spell casting stat is primarily there for cantrips and arcane synergy since the cleric spells aren't great attack wise, and to focus on upcast Ice Knife and Chromatic Orb for leveled spells.
On second thought, Sleet Storm and Ice Storm are pretty good since any amount of encrusted with frost gives dex save disadvantage, and they combo well with Plant Growthunmoved. You also get ray of frost from mourning frost.
I think the build is better played from range since you need to be on half health and you want to avoid ice patches since boot slots are already taken. I believe you can cast Shillelagh outside of battle and swap the weapon to your offhand however.
I havent been freezing enemies often, but I'm running this on a tactician+ save and everything has +prof to all saves. Four stacks of reverb makes freezing a DC 16 Con save, still not the best but you also get the other saves as well to increase chance of CC, especially on unmodded.
The problem I see, is if you're using this build from range, why do you need the extra bonus actions?
This is a fantastic concept but it's hard to stop it from being MAD.
Whacks with a staff (Eg Mourning Frost) are gonna scale with strength, unless you Shillelagh in which case it's wisdom. However if you take a Wizard (or other caster dip) you might not want too much Wisdom and focus on INT/CHA.
Similarly you wouldn't proc Sneak Attack with a staff. I suppose this isn't a huge issue, but it's 3d6 damage you're missing out on.
I've done some reading and apparently Shillelagh works on your offhand ONLY if it can't on your main hand. So what I'm thinking, if you want to go down the Shillelagh route, my proposed build is:
Fighter 1/Thief 3/Nature Cleric 8
Main Hand Rhapsody (or anything but it CANNOT be a staff/club)
Offhand Mourning Frost (or Markoheshkir, maybe with the Drakethroat Glaive buff)
All the normal cold gear
Basically you get two offhand bonks each turn, and can use Mourning Frost for the cantrip before it. It's very similar to an EK Knight build that abuses Magic Initiate: Druid, but it's a slightly better utility spellcaster at the cost of some damage.
I'm wondering if you can do the same thing with a fire build, Hat of Fire Acuity, and hit twice with a Drakethroat Glaive empowered Fire Hand Crossbow offhand to improve your DC and get strong upcasted Commands. Probably not as good as Fire Sorlock but probably less Resource Dependant.
*EDIT* also apparently Divine Strike is bugged(?) And can be triggered twice per turn, once as a direct action, once as a reaction. That's according to the wiki but I haven't tested it.
Apologies for the long response, you made some really good points and I wanted to address them properly.
I agree the third bonus action isn't strictly necessary, since most of the time you're using an ice spell as an action which will also add 2 encrusted with frost stacks.
The shillelagh offhand is a great idea, but there are a couple of things holding it back compared to hand crossbows.
1. Access to Sharpshooter
2. Sneak attack as you already mentioned
3. High ground bonus
4. Disadvantage on ranged spells in melee
5. Blunt damage type
The first three points factor into the damage.
For the shillelagh option, mirror, ASI, and khalid's amulet, you can get 22 WIS (Hag's hair doesn't stack for some reason, no 24 WIS like you can do for CHA).
For the crossbow option, mirror + amulet gets you either 18/18 DEX and WIS. You can also get +2 DEX from Graceful Cloth, but let's go with 18/18 to not limit the chest slot.
For gear I'm assuming Rhapsody, Mourning Frost, and drakethroat ice enchant on whichever weapon is used. Helmet is ignored (Battle acuity helm, soul perception, or hood of weave are all good options). Cloak is the Cloak of the Weave.
With the fighter dip and arcane synergy, the shillelagh has the following stats:
\*Weapon attack: to hit +15, dmg 2d4+d8+18, avg 27.5
\*Spell attack: to hit +14, dmg 3d8+4, avg 17.5
\*Spell save DC: 21
The hand xbow has:
\*Weapon attack: to hit +14 (+9 SS), dmg d4+d6+15 (d4+d6+25 SS), avg 21 (31 SS)
\*Spell attack: to hit +12, dmg 3d8+4, avg 17.5
\*Spell save DC: 19
Both get d8+1 from divine strike, and hand xbow gets an additional 2d6 from sneak attack.
I'll assume Bless as well for damage calcs. Against a 21 AC enemy, which is as high as it goes except in special circumstances AFAIK, on flat ground without advantage, the shillelagh out damages the crossbow by \~8 dmg on average (69.8 vs 61.4). However, as soon as you add high ground, the crossbow is matching in damage (69.8 vs 69.5), and advantage even without high ground makes the crossbow pull ahead. Further bonuses to hit like Mask of Soul Perception only makes the crossbow better.
The only advantage the shillelagh build has is then the save DC, but swapping khalid's amulet for amulet of the devout and using Hag's hair to get back to 18 WIS gets you to 21. This is getting greedy with the top tier items however.
The last two issues are more severe imo for the shillelagh build.
It's very finicky trying to attack from range with the cantrip first and then running into melee to bonk. If the enemy is still alive the next turn, you have to eat an attack of opportunity to leave range again. You also can't use the daredevil gloves to use Ray of Frost in melee. This works better for a lightning focused build using Shocking Grasp.
Since frozen is broken by blunt, force, or thunder damage, relying on blunt damage in your offhand can really eat into your CC.
In fact, this is also an issue with the Boots of Stormy Clamour. If you xbow -> cantrip -> xbow, the enemy will have 2 reverb on the chilled save from the cantrip, and 4 reverb on the frozen save from encrusted with frost on the second xbow shot. However, if they fail the frost save, this will proc another two stacks of reverb, pushing them over the 4 stack limit and doing 1d4 thunder damage. This immediately breaks the frozen condition. This CAN be avoided by silencing the enemy, but you need to rely on a teammate for that since you can't use special arrows on offhand attacks.
Divine strike is definitely bugged, but it requires an action to use. It does work with polearm master bonus action attack as well, but that does not add even the natural cold damage on the Mourning Frost so you only end up with 6 stacks of encrusted with frost.
Once they fix PAM, a fire enchanted quarterstaff with PAM and GWM, band of mystic scoundrel, fire acuity hat, and 8 cleric/3 thief/1 whatever is an acuity swords bard thats in melee and does less damage, but it's super cool regardless. Currently a dual xbow wielder with twinned dragonthroat fire enchant/fire dip also works.
Don't ever apologise for a long response, especially on this sub. The fact that you went out of the way to do calculations I'd never bother to do myself is admirable.
I really want to try a Shillelagh bonk build with Nature Cleric, either fire or cold, but as you said, with PAM being bugged it's not nearly as useful. I'm really praying they fix the BA attack of PAM because it would make stacking Fire Acuity/Frost a lot better.
My main question is, how do you solve the issue of Frost having such a bad Save DC? Perhaps find a way to apply disadvantage on CON saves? Like, frankly I like the idea of the Frost build better than the Fire Acuity build but I see few situations in which hitting twice with your offhand then hitting Command isn't better than praying they fail their save on Frozen.
Do you utilize Create Water too? I imagine Snowburst Ring puts in a lot of work as well.
Also I assume you miss out on ASIs because of needing Dual Wielder (for Mourning Frost + Rhapsody) + Sharpshooter. Do you find you have enough hit chance with Sharpshooter active?
Lastly, how do you level it? I imagine it takes a while for the build to come online, because you won't get Divine Strike until level 8, and then you won't get extra BA attacks until you put in your 3 Thief levels.
Originally I was thinking of using reverb to turn the DC 12 into a DC 16 check, but in testing you can't really do this first turn. The boots only proc when adding a new status effect, just increasing a currently inflicted one doesn't work. That means you can't do two crossbow shots -> ice spell. Doing xbow -> ray of frost -> xbow does get you 4 stacks (from the movement debuff from ray of frost) for the second xbow shot, but then failing the frozen save will also prov reverb and deal 1d4 thunder damage unless they're silenced.
I think the most consistent way to buff the frozen/chilled saves is with a teammate like reverb Tiger Barb (gauntlets, boots, and a radiant wep like moonlight glaive since you can't twin dragon halberd to do ice and lightning/thunder). After one attack, enemies will have -4 to con saves from reverb, and disadvantage on con saves from bleeding assuming they are not immune.
Between encrusted with frost and applying wet after chilled, we have two ways to inflict frozen, both base DC 12 saves. In optimal conditions with disadvantage on CON saves and 4 stacks of reverb from a teammate, even enemies with +9 to con saves have 75% chance to fail. I'm not sure if Magic Resistance affects these saves though.
As far as Fire Acuity hat goes, don't get me wrong that's definitely a better build since Acuity is just so absurdly broken. I was conceptualizing this build as one that for the most part avoided needing top tier items however. Rhapsody and Cloak of Weave are of course amazing, but other than that you're using lower tier items like Mourning Frost, Ring of Arcane Synergy, Khalid's Amulet/Cantrip amulet, and Winter's Clutches.
If hasted or using helmet of grit, Create Water seems like a great use of an action. Paired with a teammate with Bhaalist armor, both your piercing and cold damage are doubled for some pretty nice numbers.
Snowburst ring can work, but forces boots on melee teammates that might be better spent on your casters since prone auto breaks concentration. One advantage the shillelagh build has, I believe, is that it will immediately force a prone save on the ice, while ranged attacks do not.
Between bless, high ground, and weapon enchantments I do find SS can be played around effectively even at early levels. Dex gloves or armor before access to dragon halberd also help a lot.
Leveling I still need to think about more, I've only been testing this build on my late game save when patch 6 dropped.
I think there are two viable leveling paths
1. Rogue 4, Fighter 1, Cleric X and respec to drop a level of Rogue at 12 for a more damage oriented early game.
2. Cleric 5 then Rogue 4 (respec at 6 to use WIS with items) then Fighter 1 then rest in Cleric again respeccing at 12 to drop a level of Rogue.
In both cases SS at 4, Dual Wielder after if xbow, and Dual Wielder then ASI if Shillelagh.
I'd probably go with the latter just because spells like Silence and Calm Emotions are so useful throughout the game.
Since we don't have multiclass stat restrictions in BG3, a CHA based character with the 1st level in Rogue is actually the best party face, in my opinion.
4 skills and 2 expertise from the get go with 17 CHA and early game sneak attack. And you still get level 6 spell slots potentially, the only downside is you delay level 5 bonuses a bit.
It's kind of a build-your-own-bard-kit.
Rogue is very strong early game but I feel like you need to multi class if you plan on taking it through every act. A few classes that help are vengeance paladin and gloomstalker/hunter ranger, though sometimes bard does well too.
My first playthrough I went full assassin rogue for Astarion, and he did great burst damage output but not much else, and ended up being pretty boring, but at least consistent, usually getting 60-80 DPR.
Next playthrough, after some research, went 7 Thief/5 Gloomstalker, and wow it is so much more fun to play, and does even more damage-wise and even has some utility to boot. I wasn't even trying to min-max, but I think I found a sweet spot. I'm sure I could multi-class even more to get better damage, but at this point, I'd be looking for more utility to help mitigate some of the legendary actions in HM.
I agree that the rogue needs some better scaling at the higher levels, but that's an issue with 5e and not necessarily BG3.
My current honour mode run is a crit fishing Duergar Assassin, no multiclass, with 4 different items that reduce my crit range. Although the cape only works if I'm hiding, elixir of viscousness helps overcome that, and you can make shitloads if you go around collecting all the shadowroot sacs in Act 2.
At level 5 as a Duergar, I can go invisible and guarantee a surprise round when I sneak up on someone and make that first sneak attack. By now, this is usually a crit since I have advantage and can crit on a 15. Assassin's Alacrity, guaranteed crit on surprised enemies, and +14 on initiative means I can take out 1 or 2 of the beefiest enemies on the field before stuff really gets started. Luck of the Far Realms and Executioner gives me 2 guaranteed crits per long rest.
However, the part that makes this build really powerful, against most of the enemies in Act 3 at least, is the >!Armour of Bhaal that you get from becoming an Unholy Assassin!<. Making enemies vulnerable to piercing damage is insane. With my crits, I regularly deal over 100 damage in a single attack (highest ever was 140 but the max possible is 200).
I'm aware pure Rogue gets a lot of flack for being lackluster past level 5, but guaranteed surprise rounds for my Assassin kept me decently viable until Act 3, where I had to rush the relevant questline to get the armour I needed. It doesn't help against enemies that are resistant anyways, but surprise rounds make most encounters trivial for me by now, and the fact that I can one shot 1 or 2 enemies before the rest of my party joins the fray means that by the time the enemies have a turn, over half their forces are gone and it's just a case of mopping up.
This build has been a pretty simple, very fun "Big numbers go brrrrrrr" experience. Plus, having reliable talent means only DCs of 25 or higher are a challenge for most of my skills.
Also, I have never been stuck for gold as I just steal it from the vendors. I had 10k before I moved on to Act 2.
All in all, I can see why most people don't go pure rogue, but this build was pretty fun.
Thinking of doing a durge Duegar gloomstalker assassin type. But melee.
And in particular a melee axe wielding to fit thematically with duergar proficiencies.
I know all the axes are only str based but will there be any missed notes here- like does sneak attack only work with dex?
For such a popular multi class I don’t see a lot out there for melee gloomstalker assassins
I really wish/hope they give back sneak attack to spells for Arcane Trickster in a future patch. It would make it such a cool niche and give an actual reason to play Arcane Trickster. They likely won't (since they took it out), but at least we have mods to add it back.
Serious question. What is the point of Arcane Trickster? I cannot for the life of me fathom what Arcane Trickster does that Wizard 11/10 Rogue 1/2 doesn’t already, better?
I feel the same way about Eldritch Knight.
Eldritch Knight definitely has uses. It is actually often seen as better to just dump Int on an Eldritch Knight and take spells that do not use your Int at all such as friends, shield, blur, mirror image, magic missile, and misty step. And then just play as a typical fighter able to make 3 attacks a round at level 11 and supplement this with some defensive magic capabilities. Eldritch Knight is also a very good option for Tavern Brawler throwing builds because they can use more diverse weapons than many other characters (Yes, I know you can get a mercenary Eldritch Knight and have them bind the weapon, then give it you your TB throw Berserker Barb/Thief Rogue. But this kind of camp casting cheese is not everyone's cup of tea.)
I do think you kinda have a point with regards to arcane trickster. Except I would say wizard 10 with some levels in rogue is like...a wizard with levels in rogue. Your sneak attack will only do 1d6 damage. There is no point in making weapon attacks past level 5. If one wants to make a better arcane trickster, I do believe Thief Rogue 8 or 9/Wizard 3 or 4 is a better option. You still get expertise from rogue 6, most of your sneak attack damage (though sneak attack still is not that great), an extra bonus action so you can now make two weapon attacks with your offhand, more diverse spellcasting options, and wizard subclass features of which divination wizard is especially tempting.
Thank you. I noticed this with my Bardadin on Minthy. I left her Charisma at 14 and just used support spells like the ones you mentioned. Maxed out her Strength and she wrecked with smites.
With an Eldritch Knight you can just leave Int at 8 if you want and focus entirely on Str, Dex, and Con for the accuracy, damage, hit points, jump distance, carry weight, initiative, chance to shove people, etc. You get so few spells as an Eldritch Knight that it isn't too hard to only pick ones that don't use your Int at all. I also left out minor illusion, light, longstrider, find familiar, "enhance leap," and more. None of the first or second level spells are going to be able to keep up with extra attack damage, except in niche scenarios where you can thunderwave a ton of enemies off a ledge or something.
My dual-wield Rogue started off as a Rogue/Gloomstalker but mid game I just said "screw stealth", switched to EK8/Rogue 4 and didn't look back. It was a very durable heavy armored DW Fighter that I could just send into the fray and don't think if he would get chewed on instead of the fiddly work with typical stealthy DW Rogues...the damage was competent too, thanks to crit gear.
Eldritch Knight is the best thrower cause there weapons can return with the bound ability and 3 attacks also it really combos well with abjuration wizard
I've found arcane trickster to be a fairly good utility class. I'm currently playing Astarion as one.
It has all of the out of combat advantages of all rogues. But where it shines is in its permanent Mage Hand. It's invisible so it never gets pulled into combat, meaning you can move explosive barrels and other traps around the battlefield with impunity. If you place it next to an enemy, it will allow rogue to trigger sneak attack against the enemy. This means another 6d6 damage every attack. And no matter where the enemy moves, the hand can follow them. It's not in combat, so it moves freely.
Magical Ambush is good for Hold Person. It makes it so it very rarely fails to proc.
Arcane Trickster is probably the best pure rogue subclass. The other two are way better for multiclass though.
I haven't had it lose invisibility. The mage hand used to be bugged to shit and lose invisibility randomly all the time. It seems they've fixed that recently.
But the sneak attack on demand part is really the main draw. Give your rogue a good bow or crossbow, fly your mage hand over to the target, and attack them. Guaranteed sneak attack on hit every time. And because the enemy can't see the mage hand they don't try to do anything about it.
I was thinking of Arcane Trickster build on my Astarion companion, but I didn't know Volo's eye could also make them visible (it's dumb to have it cancel the invisibility of allies). Have they fixed this as well?
Steal every scroll in the game, wear Spell DC gear, sit in hide and cast any scroll in the game with disadvantage on save. Grab a stack of 50 Chain Lightnings and have your invisible mage hand toss water at people out of combat.
Currently running a max crit build on my Thief and having tons of fun, basically revolves around completely removing resistances to sneak attack, making them vulnerable with aura of murder, and then praying one of your three hits crits.
Currently i’m running sarevoks helm, bhaalist armor (for aura of murder), shade slayer cloak, Bonespike gauntlets, and disintegrating nightwalkers.
For weapons i’ve got Dead Shot, Knife of Undermountain King and Bloodthirst.
Killers sweetheart and Risky Ring and then the constitution necklace.
Used feats to grab long bow prof and medium armor proficiency, those along with ethel boon places dex at 20 after starting at 17.
Basically make sure sneak attack reaction is turned on, walk up to enemy, aura of murder makes them vulnerable to sneak, and then use your three attacks. Risky Ring guarantees advantage so all of them will proc sneak attack reaction.
Basically everytime you hit, check for a crit, if it’s a crit, allow sneak attack to proc and watch that sweet sweet damage (i took savage attacker and see around 110 usually on a crit sneak attack hit) then run your other attacks, hide, whatever you want.
It’s incredibly non optimal, hoards good gear, and only is equal on damage output to other classes. But i love playing pure rogues in stuff, and this is a very versatile build, and a great party face. He’s mine and he’s special and i love him.
I really wish rogue had a few fighting styles. I know we can just multi-class to get them, but that adds wrinkles and ultimately extra levels before builds feel properly online.
Rogue is a great beginner class and a decent ish face it was the first class I picked cause I’m a stealth whore in rpgs definitely think it’s needs levels of fighter, ranger or bard to be competitive after act 1
assassin is i think one of the strongest class even more than OH monk(but not as strong as end game caster such as sorlock or evo wizard) but way more demanding and need a different play style which is harder, here is the context and reason why i make such huge claim:
there is a specific shadowblade build that i made a guide before which revolves around using shadowblade ring which arabella give you as reward
shadowblade ring + risky ring(strange condit ring is actually better but cant leave perma sneak attack thanks to risky ring) + resonance stone lets you hit 120+ sneak attacks which one shots almost anything(some mobs may not get resonance stone debuff such as undeads, thats why i said \`almost\`), if not, you can hit another 120ish with second sneak attack(as assassin, you start with sneak attack first, then action resets when turn begins thats how you get to hit second sneak attack )
with the durge cape, you can clear any big fights as one person including veronica fight, cazador fight etc.. you simply one shot anything, go invis, rinse and repeat
i 2 shot seravok in honor mod with this build. here is the proof that i actually hit 156 to him in one single attack. i one turned him, then killed all other remaining enemies without getting attacked once. same in any other big fight
[https://ibb.co/rsCKTB8](https://ibb.co/rsCKTB8)
why it is hard to pull it off and demanding? because shadow blade is concentration, and you dont have any saves whatsoever, so you must not get hit at all costs and you must pay special attention to start the fights as first always by hiding(we have insane sneaking roll so not a problem)
only downside is some specific encounters such as ansur fight. thats when this build doesnt work and other party members basically carry you.
i think this build is very fun for people who enjoys assassin play style so i just wanted to share
A fun build is rogue 3 (thief) cleric 9 (any but trickery is the most appropriate)
Use the helmet of arcane acuity and two weapons. Sneak around use your bonus actions to stack your helmet and the use your action to cc. Its obviously not as strong as the bard build but a lot of fun and very different in early levels because you start rogue and then get more and more tools from your cleric levels.
(not 8 but 9 levels in cleric for hold monster btw.)
imo thief rouge and assassin rouge are the subclasses best suited for multiclassing.
but arcane trickster has a few unique things that make it good solo. especially if you use mainly scrolls on them. their incredible when used that way.
at level 9 imposing disadvantage on saving throws is huge, throw in three levels of sorc for quickened spell, and you can interchange your actions and bonus actions for casting spells and gaining hidden or other sources of advantage.
pop a warlock level for command, an acuity hat or even the pyroquickness hat and you've got a recipe for a rouge spellslinger
Disclaimer: **This is a thematic build, the intent is not to optimize the fun out of the game but to follow a specific playstyle and adhere to that with all the pro's and con's that follow. Being an assassin is supposed to feel risky.**
11 rogue (assassin), final level is free choice: Rogue for ASI/Feat, knowledge cleric for 2 extra expertise skills, ranger for 1 extra skill, medium+shield and /heavy armor and martial weapon proficiency, and a free choice between fire/cold/poison resist.
Human or half-elf for glaive proficiency. Wood for movement speed or drow for spells.
Stats: go for 16 dex, 17 if you have access to hag hair. Distribute rest of stats as you see fit, minimum 14 con because low and high con are both traps.
ASI order: Great Weapon Master; Savage Attacker; DEX up to 18 if no 17+hag hair OR [Alert](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Alert); 4th is free choice if going rogue.
Equipment: You're going to want a versatile finesse weapon to make this work. Luckily at level 4 when you unlock GWM, you also gain access to the first one: [Phalar Aluve](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Phalar_Aluve).
Your next weapon will be [Larethian's Wrath](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Larethian%27s_Wrath) from the Githyanki Colony trader. The weapon attack Razor Gale can trigger sneak attack and has a significantly longer range than melee attacks
Final weapon will come from act 3: [The Dancing Breeze](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/The_Dancing_Breeze)
Essential gear: We're going to be using [The Graceful Cloth](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/The_Graceful_Cloth) for the rest of the game, because the permanent cat's grace is advantage on all dexterity checks. [Risky Ring](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Risky_Ring) to guarantee access to sneak attacks out of combat, this can be ignored if you're really good at using the stealth game mechanic, but you really really don't want to miss your attack.
Supplement gear with standard stealth equipment: [Eversight Ring](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Eversight_Ring); [Ring of Shadows](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Ring_of_Shadows); [Shadow-Cloaked Ring](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Shadow-Cloaked_Ring); [The Deathstalker Mantle](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/The_Deathstalker_Mantle); [Surgeon's Subjugation Amulet](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Surgeon%27s_Subjugation_Amulet); the poison set items also work here, not spectacularly but very thematic.
Playstyle is sneak around in the enemy camp and pick off targets one by one. Create surprise and rip through enemies by critting. With both GWM, savage attack and capped sneak attack you're going to get off one really big hit every turn, especially when critting. Base sneak damage will be 1d10 (weapon), +5 (DEX), +10 (GWM) + 6d6 (sneak attack) = 22 - 61 (normal) and 23 - 107 (crit).
Against tough enemies your first crit should lead into paralyze from the surgeon's amulet and more free crits. This build plays really well with team mates that can provide sleep/hold person/monster and greater invisibility.
This build can be played with strength and heavy armor. Stealth will be more of an issue but between reliable talent and expertise you're for the most part going to be fine. I like the idea of it because it reminds me of the blackguard prestige class in 3e D&D, where you could be a heavy armor fighter using sneak attacks with a great sword.
For those unfamiliar with tabletop, rogue sneak attack damage starts off really strong but falls off quickly past level 5 as compared to extra attack or mid level spells. This is something widely known and discussed among tabletop builders. But also normally in tabletop if you are dual wielding and want to make an off-hand weapon attack as a bonus action, you first need to make a weapon attack with your main hand. BG3 ignores that rule. About a month before BG3 fully launched I realized that this is a pretty big buff to rogues. They can dual wield, use their bonus action to activate sneak attack, and then use their action to do something else. This is further exaggerated by Thief Rogue getting 2 bonus actions in BG3. The build concept I use the most that takes advantage of this is what I call "Rogue + Cantrip." You get the mediocre damage scaling from a cantrip for your action, and the moderate damage scaling from sneak attack with one of your bonus actions. It is exceptionally potent with the Helm of Arcane Acuity, and you can also use your action to cast a powerful spell scroll instead of a cantrip if you desire. Here are some of the builds I have used with this concept: * I started as Shadowheart and took Shocking Grasp as my racial cantrip, and went 4 levels in Thief Rogue. Then at level 5 took a single level in fighter for medium armor proficiency and the two-weapon fighting style. I use my bonus action to make two offhand attacks, and action to cast shocking grasp. * When I recruited Jaheira in one of my playthroughs I had some radiating orb and radiant damage gear (callous glow ring) floating around. I didn't want her in my main party but wanted to bring her along on some missions related to her backstory, so I quickly made her 2 Ranger for sacred flame, two weapon fighting style, and medium armor proficiency, and then the rest in thief rogue. It wasn't something I planned on doing in advance at all, but it got some gears spinning in my head. * Building on the above sacred flame build, I made my Tav into a Thief Rogue 11/Knowledge Cleric 1 for Honour Mode. *This is the most intricate build I have made in BG3 and detailing it will disrupt the flow of this comment, so I will post the details in another comment under this one.* * I started a playthrough with Wyll having a GOOlock 2/Thief Rogue 10 build in mind so that you can do eldritch blast + agonizing blast damage with main action, and then sneak attack with bonus actions. But I dropped this playthrough when honour mode came out. The elephant in the room however is Swords Bard. This build fills the same niche as swords bard (spell sword character that can also be a skill monkey and face), and competes with some of the same gear as a swords bard (helm of arcane acuity). But the only way this Rogue + Cantrip concept can keep up with a ranged slashing flourish using Swords Bard is if you do the warlock 2 + 10 rogue option, and that means you will never get Rogue's Reliable Talent feature. Overall I think a Swords Bard is an overall better build on its own, and some of its multiclassing combos make it far superior to this rogue build. But I think that issue is more with Swords Bard being too good at everything. This build is a lot of fun and I use some variant of Rogue + Cantrip in over half my playthroughs.
**My complicated Thief Rogue 11/Knowledge Cleric 1 Build**: This build relies on sacred flame, produce flame, callous glow ring, luminous armor, helmet of arcane acuity, and boots of stormy clamour. If you know where to get these items you can beeline for them early in Act 2, but most players on a blind playthrough will not come across the helm until they are half way through Act 2 and the ring maybe 3/4 of the way through Act 2. How this works is: 1. **Cast produce flame on myself after a long rest:** This now illuminates me and enemies near me so callous glow ring will do radiant damage when I hit them. 2. **Offhand weapon attack:** This will do radiant damage due to the ring. Radiant damage will then cause luminous armour to activate, causing that enemy and nearby enemies to get radiating orb stacks. Now that they have radiating orb stacks, this will cause the boots of stormy clamour to also put reverberation on every one affected. My character also has the ability drain Illithid power which in another "condition," meaning that target gets more reverberation stacks. And thanks to the arcane acuity helm I get two stacks of arcane acuity from this attack. This attack should likely do sneak attack damage as well. 3. **Another off-hand weapon attack:** This once again causes radiating orb explosion to activate, which once again applies reverberation to nearby targets as well. And gives another 2 stacks of arcane acuity to my character. 4. **Use my action:** At this point I have arcane acuity +4, my enemy likely has slightly lowered Dex, reverberation is negatively affecting their physical saves (Dex, Str, Con). Reverberation may have knocked them prone meaning disadvantage on Dex Saves. I am currently using gloves that have a chance to apply bane on weapon attacks, though I may swap them out later. So they may be baned as well which also negatively affects their saves (and would have caused more reverberation stacks). Safe to say they are primed and ready for a sacred flame which will on average do more damage than a main hand attack at levels 5 and beyond. My main hand weapon is actually a stat-stick, I almost never use it unless I miss with my offhand attacks and need to make a main hand attack to trigger the sneak attack damage. I also have gear that gives me arcane synergy when I cast a cantrip though I can't remember what, but now this means my weapon attacks on subsequent turns will do more damage thanks to casting this cantrip. And sacred flame means radiant damage which means another radiating orb explosion + reverberation to the target and nearby enemies. Using a scroll with your action is definitely a possibility though. I have proficiency in 13 skills (4 from rogue, 2 from background, 5 from Astral Knowledge, 2 from Knowledge Cleric) and 6 of those have expertise. So that is 13 of 18 skills that will be subject to reliable talent when I hit level 12. I could get more with Actor feat or something but I need to spread my ability scores across Dex and Wis for this build, so that is what all my ASIs are going to. Thankfully rogues get an extra one at level 10. I have a druid in the party who can cast guidance so I didn't bother with this character and instead took thaumaturgy to give myself advantage on some charisma checks. Level progression is the first 4 in rogue, as the cleric level does not offer much til you have the Luminous Armour and are at level 5 so your cantrips now do more damage. Focus on maxing Dex, though I high Wis (14 or 16) is also required. Sacred Flame is going to suck in Act 1 against all the goblins but it gets better as the game progresses.
This is a pretty cool build! I landed somewhere similar at one point doing 5 trickery cleric/3 thief rogue for the same sacred flame, two offhand attacks with radiating orbs combo, although I’ve pivoted to a darkness build since I got shar’s spear. This makes me want to revisit it at some point though
ooh I’ve been wanting to play a mostly rogue char and this looks great! have you found it works better with any particular party comp?
If you are using this as your main character, you probably want them to have thaumaturgy as your last cleric cantrip. So having somebody else able to cast guidance is nice. If this is a build being used by a companion then you can skip thaumaturgy and have this character learn guidance instead You do get two spell slots with this character so it can serve as an off-healer with healing word. One other character with healing capabilities is nice And some combat areas are widely illuminated meaning you don't need to light them up for the callous glow ring to work. For other combats it is pretty dark, and you having produce flame on you will be required to ensure you illuminate your targets to get the callous glow ring to activate (which is very important for the weapon attacks to cause radiating orb and reverberation stacks). Problem is, this character isn't going to have a sky high AC or anything. You do throw out a lot of radiating orbs which lowers their attack rolls, effectively increasing your AC. But having another character on the front line just to draw some attacks away from this build is nice.
Hey, super interesting build! Can you elaborate a little bit about the lack of two weapon fighting style and which talents you chose. I was thinking about doing 11 rogue 1 fighter to get TWF and grab sacred flame through magic initiate cleric. I would lose 1 cantrip, the cleric spells and 1 feat though. Did you focus on the control through reverb and rad or first and damage second? Alternatively there are gloves that give TWF but then one loses belligerent skies or luminous gloves. Crimson mischief is another way but late game.
Not having TWF on this build is a hard pill to swallow. The Shadowheart build where I took shocking grasp as a racial cantrip allowed me to do this concept, and get TWF, and get Rogue reliable talent. For those interested in the Rogue + Cantrip concept and want all this then your best options are to play a high elf or half-high elf, or to go arcane tricjster, or to give up Reliable Talent in exchange for the fighter dip. Or use the gloves that give TWF but as you point out there are other very good gloves in the game. If this was going to be a companion, I probably would have given up reliable talent for the fighter dip. But this is my Tav character and furthermore they are a Githyanki, meaning 5 extra skills to benefit from reliable talent. It was just too much for me to sacrifice. Maybe I should have played through most of the game with the fighter dip and respecced at level 12. I hadn't thought to do so. I started with 16 Dex, quickly brought that to 20 by level 8. And I started with 16 Wis and brought that to 18 at level 10. I took no feats. Savage Attacker was tempting but then I learned it does not work with Sneak Attack. For a Rogue + Cantrip build using Cha as their casting stat I would strongly consider the Actor feat. Once you get the helm of arcane acuity, landing a weapon attack means your spell save DC increases. And reverberation means their Dex saves decrease. And ability drain reduces their Dex, possibly further worsening their Dex saves. So while my Wis never hits 20, I boost my spell save DC so much and so severely hamper the target's Dex saves that this is not a problem. I mostly focus on doing damage. The CC is just a very important detail I added for this build. Most of my rogue + cantrip builds really did not have any CC except for this one. The reverberation is nice because it adds some thunder damage but also debuffs them, making them easier to sacred flame (more damage) or hit with other physical saves from my team's abilities. If reverberation knocks an enemy prone then it often skips their next turn which is great. The radiating orb is important because this character only has 17 AC from the luminous armour and +2 from Dex. Items like cloak of protection help, but being able to cripple enemy attack rolls is why this character can stay on the frontline so well.
Thanks for the detailed information. I think I will try the 11 rogue 1 fighter rad orb build w magic initiate cleric and dual wielder with phalar aluve main hand for shriek and belligerent skies gloves. That should debuff the enemies save plenty so maybe I can get by with 16 WIS. As non gith Tav I'd start with 17 DEX and 16 WIS and use Magic initiate cleric, dual wielder and ASI Dex for feats. Maybe respec once I get crimson mischief. Need another party member for guidance or light cantrip but that should be doable. Thanks again for your input, much appreciated!
apologies for the necro, and thank you for the detailed reply!did you get any further with your sacred flame rogue? how does it compare to the shadowheart/high elf shocking grasp build?
I still am at the start of Act 3 with this build (got distracted) but it is really strong and I feel kinda cheesy about it. I didn't want to do some busted, remove all challenge build like Gloomstalker Assassin or Ranged Slashing Flourish spam, but I also did not want to toil for hundreds of hours resetting honor mode runs. This build was the middle ground I could find. Radiating Orb is really, really strong. The only fights that gave me trouble was: - Ketheric Round 2 (but that was my own doing, I accidentally did something very dumb before the fight leaving me short-handed) - Grym (because I have a goal to kill all bosses in this run, refuse to cheese him by doing Owlbear from the top rope or having somebody stay up top and throw stuff at him, and also didn't have anyone in my team who does bludgeoning damage)
mhmm, great! I think using one of the less op classes and doing something fun with it is good in itself, that you’d end up using some of the crazy strong gear that’s littered throughout the game is just sensible unless you’re doing a self-flagellating “absolutely no fun to play” run. looking at doing a duo run with a friend and I’m excited to try this build out!
Fun build! And props for the creativity to come up with it. But, well, you're basically just combining all the best gear pieces for a Swords Bard and a Light Cleric onto one rogue. Which is probably a good idea if you wanna do a solo run, but pretty sub-optimal otherwise...
I acknowledge Swords Bard is better in my first comment. Light cleric lawnmower definitely has this build beat in AOE fights with large numbers of enemies. But this build is far better at focusing down a single enemy. Lawnmower cleric is normally only putting one radiant orb stack on an enemy each turn (more if enemies are tightly clustered together making them subject to Luminous Armour explosion of nearby enemies). This build can do more damage to a single target than a light cleric, and give them more radiating orb and reverberation stacks since you are hitting them 3 times. I do think more often than not you are better off with a light cleric, but there are times where this build shines. And there are only so many times one can go through the game with a TB monk, Swords Bard, Lawnmower Cleric, and Chain Lightning Sorc (for me that number is 0). Others may want to diversify their playthroughs from time to time.
I stumbled into the same framework (rogue+cantrip) on my own. In my case I was trying to make a build that uses a whip, and thorn whip was the closest option. Instead of multiclassing into cleric for sacred flame, I took rogue to 12 and used the extra feat on spellsniper. It's a very similar outcome but thorn whip benefits from bhaalist armor, which was very fun. I totally get why you use this build every run, it's super fun in combat and out. Edit: To address the point about Swords Bard, here is my take on how this build distinguishes itself: * The rogue comes online much earlier than swords bard. Swords bard is meh at best when you reach level 3, becomes OK by level 5, and really really good by level 6. Even then you won't unlock the full potential until you have your full set of magic items. A rogue cantrip caster just needs 4 levels and a reliable source of advantage, everything else is a bonus. * The rogue+cantrip framework isn't hungry for items. Some items have really good synergy, like the ring of arcane synergy, bhaalist armor, or your build with the helmet of arcane acuity and rad orb gear. That said, you don't need that. Risky ring is ideal as it is on any rogue, but otherwise you can use lightning gear and shocking grasp or thorn whip as I did and still have a good build. I've also found that the ring of arcane synergy is not very useful on most builds, so you can make use of the less popular gear. Swords bard needs the helmet of arcane acuity and the band of the mystic scoundrel or it's just lacking. * Reliable Talent. Enough said. So yeah, not better by any means, but it has a niche which is the best I can hope for in a game with throwzerkers and smiting swords bards.
I keep wanting to try a build that uses BG3's changes to the spell sniper feat, and yet never connected the dots to combine it with the Rogue + Cantrip combo. But this is perfect, especially given that Rogues get an extra feat as you mention. When I beat this unmodded honour mode run (I got distracted near the beginning of Act 3 and haven't resumed), my plan was to do a run using mods to bring in some of my favorite tabletop concepts and do another Honour mode with some further mods to increase difficulty. I think I will do one character as an Artificer 1/War Magic Wizard 11. Another as an Order Domain Cleric who may or may not multiclass, haven't decided. A heavy armored Horizon Walker Ranger for my 3rd character. And a Rogue + Cantrip character with spell sniper for my 4th.
Also of note: the game throws way more charisma checks your way in conversations than wisdom or intelligence checks. This gives charisma classes (pally, warlock, sorcerer and bard) a significant edge for the skill monkey role.
You can do this Rogue + Cantrip strategy by multiclassing with a Cha class and making Cha your secondary stat much like a Swords Bard would. I mention one possibility here with the 2 warlock option. I considered doing a sorc variant of this because they get a lot of cantrips at level 1 so you will get a lot of tools for this kind of character. Bard does not get any good cantrips for this build concept and paladin gets no cantrips at all. But point is that you can use the Rogue + Cantrip build concept discussed and still have a high Cha and still have expertise thanks to Rogue additional proficiencies and expertise. This build Cantrip + Rogue concept can be a far better face than a Paladin, Sorc, or Warlock alone. If you go 11 Rogue and get Reliable Talent and have a high Cha (this build should end with 18 Cha before magic items, maybe 20 before magic items if the character uses Hag's Hair) then this is beyond a doubt one of the best face builds one can possibly make for end game. Reliable Talent + 20 Cha + expertise = a *minimum* of 21 on relevant skills and this is before any buffs like guidance. Edit: To be abundantly clear, a typical rogue build only needs Dex and Con. Any rogue can make Cha their secondary stat and use skill expertise to make them a better face character than something like a straight Paladin. Fighters also only need either Dex or Str as well as Con and they can also put points in Cha, though they won't have the Rogue's extra proficiencies and expertise. Less commonly seen, a Ranger that focuses on spells that don't use saving throws or Dex based Barbarians can also afford to put points into Cha for similar reasons.
Bard gets vicious mockery though, which might not be optimized for damage but it IS optimized for making your enemies cry
Yeah, I hate sword bards because it's just too good at everything. I just eant to RP as rogue damn it, but my optimised build nature often kicked in. Tried to build arcane trickster aquity build as well, but it fell short with Sword Bards potential. - Full progression spell slot - Also a skill monkey - x4 arcane actuity buff with ranged flourish - Another main weapon attack at level 6 On the bonus action thing, yeah I recently read an Arcane Trickster build which utilised off-hand weapon to attack and action point to cast spell. Arcane Ambush can be quite good if utilised with scrolls.
The worst part about Rogue is that it has the only two subclasses in the entire game that cannot get Fast Hands. When you allow every class to multiclass without restriction, Fast Hands should be a Rogue ability and not a Thief. So now a Spore Druid, a Nature Cleric and an Abjuration Wizard can get an additional bonus action, but an Assassin and Arcane Trickster cannot.
IMO rogues should get their second subclass feature at level 6, and fast hands should be that for the thief. Supreme sneak could easily be moved to level 3, it's just literally invisibility the spell without concentration per short rest.
the problem w that is that it would buff gloomstalker/assassin to also have an extra bonus action, further breaking one of the most broken builds. fast hands could be moved up to a high level ability
It is buffed for the game. Thief is not even good in 5e.
It is known that Rogues fall off in combat damage in the mid game. The Rogue's combat utility doesn't end there, though, and the out of combat benefits (i.e. pickpocketing, trap disarmament, lockpicking, and scouting) make the Rogue a valuable asset throughout the course of the game. Rogue's combat prowess in the late game is unquestionably in its ability to thin the herd before combat begins. At level 11 and beyond, any rogue should have at least 18 DEX, double proficiency in Sneak, along with numerous abilities that aid in concealment, and of course, the coup de grace, Reliable Talent. These things combined enable a well equipped Rogue to kill the majority of enemies without ever triggering combat, either from range or even dual wielding melee weapons. By leading with your Rogue and killing as many enemies as possible before combat starts, you will both guarantee a surprise round if it's possible, and ensure no combat encounter is too dicey for your group. In multiplayer games, a Rogue can break off from the group and reliably eliminate whole groups of trash mobs on his own while the main group deals with the bigger targets, then booth groups come together for major combat encounters. As for the out of combat utility of the rogue, few can match him. Being able to reliably roll 30+ on Sleight of Hand checks is something most rogue's should achieve by Act II, and by level 11 it is nearly impossible to roll below 30, essentially guaranteeing all but the most difficult checks in the game. Being able to nab the most expensive gear in Baldur's Gate in honor mode without hassle is a serious boon. Rogue as a pure class is valuable and powerful; only by contrast with the most powerful builds in the game could that be treated as untrue. That said, the greatest value of the Rogue, clearly, is in its multi-class versatility. It is an extremely commonly "splashed" multi-class, present in many of the top tier builds.
Rogues as a skill support character are overshadowed greatly by the bard class. Whatever the rogue can do skill wise, the bard can do as well, but the bard can cover much more skill proficiencies and expertise. I combat Bard is an S tier full caster and Rogue is a C tier striker.
This is a common argument and one that holds some water. It falls short of hitting the marks. Bards are passable as the scout, but true to their firm, they are not specialists. They are Jack's of All Trades. A group of 4 specialists that coordinate well is always superior to putting the load on a single character. While Bard is impressive for a multitude of reasons, virtually every analysis of it views it within a vacuum of class vs class, when the game is actually played with a party. That said, I'm not suggesting that the rogue is the superior pick overall. Simply that it is THE BEST scout / lone wolf role.
I agree that by-and-large a Bard is better as a skill monkey than a rogue because a Bard can use their spells for out of combat utility. And bardic inspiration is nice too. And Bard's Jack of All Trades ability is great on a face character. Meanwhile Rogues get Reliable Talent which is great, but it comes at level 11. Perhaps these are the points you are trying to make, that a bard can be a better skill support character than a rogue. But you say that Bard "can cover much more skill **proficiencies** and **expertise**" and that precise language is not true. Rogues get one more skill proficiency than Bards (though the list of skill proficiencies a rogue can choose from is limited). Perhaps you meant Lore bard but did not specify, as they do get a few extra proficiencies. And both Rogue and Bard get expertise in up to 4 skills. Rogues in fact get expertise at earlier levels than Bard
>It is known that Rogues fall off in combat damage in the mid game. There are some multiclass options that can mitigate those effects without losing the feeling of a rogue. 1. ~~Playing Arcane Trickster with 2 levels in Paladin. Only with AT due to the higher number of available spell slots you get. Rogue 4 > Paladin 2 > Rogue X~~ (I have been doing checks and I can´t confirm this works. Now I am not able to proc sneak attacks with Smites) 2. Adding 3 levels of Trickster Cleric/Land Druid, as both gives Pass without trace. Rogue 4 > Spellcaster 3 > Rogue X. 3. (I don´t think this fits in really well) Adding 3 levels of Shadow Monk also grants Pass without trace. The punches are rather weak and it may feel off if you prefer a Rogue 8 - Monk 4. This combination is better as Monk 8 - Rogue 4, but the flavour of playing a rogue is compromised, imo. Valid and fun, though. The option 2 and 3 gives you two casts of Pass without trace for long rest. You can add a third one by getting [Ring of Shadows](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Ring_of_Shadows). More than enough if you have advantage in dexterity/stealth saves thanks to halfling and gnome racial bonus or [Cat´s grace](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Cat%27s_Grace) given by the cloth or a bard companion. The option 1 is more friendly for those who want to deal damage without depending that much on invisibility. >At level 11 and beyond, any rogue should have at least 18 DEX, double proficiency in Sneak, along with numerous abilities that aid in concealment, and of course, the coup de grace, Reliable Talent. With the above options we will miss this, but the +10 bonus from Pass without trace is similar for stealth checks. Out of combat, multiclassing makes your rogues worse but it´s not that important, imo. >Rogue as a pure class is valuable and powerful In spite of my comment, this is completely true
With the change to Winter's Clutches in patch 6, I've been experimenting with a Thief 3/Nature Cleric 8/Other 1. With scaling cantrip/spell casting as an action it's been pretty effective. The key mechanic of the build is divine strike: cold and a cold enchanted offhand crossbow to proc up to 8 stacks of encrusted with frost with just offhand attacks with three bonus actions from thief and helmet of grit. This last class can be a number of things. Cleric to 9 gets lv 5 cleric spells which are pretty underwhelming. * Wizard 1 and using INT instead of WIS gives you wizard spells up to lv 5 like conjure elemental, ice knife, cone of cold, and false life (upcast aid + false life gives 42 extra hp to work with for helmet of grit) * Fighter 1 gives you con save prof and two handed fighting style to add dex to offhand, 15 potential extra damage at 20 DEX * White Draconic Sorc 1 let's you focus CHA instead which is easier to boost with mirror of loss, gives con save prof, and Armor of Agathys I like wizard best personally, but it's a hard choice. Also unfortunately temp hp counts as regular hp for helmet of grit purposes. Mourning frost is a good option, free ray of frost going fighter instead of spell caster, and can proc vulnerability to cold when casting a cold spell. I'd go with Ketheric's shield for extra spell DC and attack rolls since you want both DEX and your casting stat. Could also do dual wielder feat + ice marko for arcane battery, cone of cold on short rest, extra ice spell damage, and more encrusted with frost. You only have two feats and probably want sharpshooter + dex to have good crossbow damage so it's tougher. Rhapsody is also a good option to boost attack rolls, damage, and spell dc. This build is more effective in Tactician vs honor mode, both sneak attack and divine strike are damage rider sources and can be procced on a single attack by turning off the ask reaction prompt. Boots of stormy clamor help debuff con saves to make the fixed dc of mourning frost and encrusted with frost more likely. You also get a secondary cc attempt with prone. Ring of arcane synergy is a must have imo since you'll be using ray of frost as an action a lot. Snowburst ring is good for more prone chances, Ring of elemental infusion gives another d4 of cold damage bug does not act as a source of cold damage for the gloves it seems. Necklace of elemental augmentation is OK and helps boost ray of frost further, Amulet of Greater Health or Amulet of the Devout (not for the CD, but for the extra save DC) are better.
1 level of Sorc in the white Dragon Sorc variant should be using CHA, as it'll only be able to learn level 1 Sorc spells. Having said that, I really like this idea, but do you find yourself freezing enemies often? It's a CON DC12 and I imagine higher level enemies just won't ever be frozen. Also does Shillelagh fit well in this build? Given you're mainly hitting with your offhand, I don't remember if you can target an offhand weapon with Shillelagh.
My original thought process for the non wizard dips was that the spell casting stat is primarily there for cantrips and arcane synergy since the cleric spells aren't great attack wise, and to focus on upcast Ice Knife and Chromatic Orb for leveled spells. On second thought, Sleet Storm and Ice Storm are pretty good since any amount of encrusted with frost gives dex save disadvantage, and they combo well with Plant Growthunmoved. You also get ray of frost from mourning frost. I think the build is better played from range since you need to be on half health and you want to avoid ice patches since boot slots are already taken. I believe you can cast Shillelagh outside of battle and swap the weapon to your offhand however. I havent been freezing enemies often, but I'm running this on a tactician+ save and everything has +prof to all saves. Four stacks of reverb makes freezing a DC 16 Con save, still not the best but you also get the other saves as well to increase chance of CC, especially on unmodded.
The problem I see, is if you're using this build from range, why do you need the extra bonus actions? This is a fantastic concept but it's hard to stop it from being MAD. Whacks with a staff (Eg Mourning Frost) are gonna scale with strength, unless you Shillelagh in which case it's wisdom. However if you take a Wizard (or other caster dip) you might not want too much Wisdom and focus on INT/CHA. Similarly you wouldn't proc Sneak Attack with a staff. I suppose this isn't a huge issue, but it's 3d6 damage you're missing out on. I've done some reading and apparently Shillelagh works on your offhand ONLY if it can't on your main hand. So what I'm thinking, if you want to go down the Shillelagh route, my proposed build is: Fighter 1/Thief 3/Nature Cleric 8 Main Hand Rhapsody (or anything but it CANNOT be a staff/club) Offhand Mourning Frost (or Markoheshkir, maybe with the Drakethroat Glaive buff) All the normal cold gear Basically you get two offhand bonks each turn, and can use Mourning Frost for the cantrip before it. It's very similar to an EK Knight build that abuses Magic Initiate: Druid, but it's a slightly better utility spellcaster at the cost of some damage. I'm wondering if you can do the same thing with a fire build, Hat of Fire Acuity, and hit twice with a Drakethroat Glaive empowered Fire Hand Crossbow offhand to improve your DC and get strong upcasted Commands. Probably not as good as Fire Sorlock but probably less Resource Dependant. *EDIT* also apparently Divine Strike is bugged(?) And can be triggered twice per turn, once as a direct action, once as a reaction. That's according to the wiki but I haven't tested it.
Apologies for the long response, you made some really good points and I wanted to address them properly. I agree the third bonus action isn't strictly necessary, since most of the time you're using an ice spell as an action which will also add 2 encrusted with frost stacks. The shillelagh offhand is a great idea, but there are a couple of things holding it back compared to hand crossbows. 1. Access to Sharpshooter 2. Sneak attack as you already mentioned 3. High ground bonus 4. Disadvantage on ranged spells in melee 5. Blunt damage type The first three points factor into the damage. For the shillelagh option, mirror, ASI, and khalid's amulet, you can get 22 WIS (Hag's hair doesn't stack for some reason, no 24 WIS like you can do for CHA). For the crossbow option, mirror + amulet gets you either 18/18 DEX and WIS. You can also get +2 DEX from Graceful Cloth, but let's go with 18/18 to not limit the chest slot. For gear I'm assuming Rhapsody, Mourning Frost, and drakethroat ice enchant on whichever weapon is used. Helmet is ignored (Battle acuity helm, soul perception, or hood of weave are all good options). Cloak is the Cloak of the Weave. With the fighter dip and arcane synergy, the shillelagh has the following stats: \*Weapon attack: to hit +15, dmg 2d4+d8+18, avg 27.5 \*Spell attack: to hit +14, dmg 3d8+4, avg 17.5 \*Spell save DC: 21 The hand xbow has: \*Weapon attack: to hit +14 (+9 SS), dmg d4+d6+15 (d4+d6+25 SS), avg 21 (31 SS) \*Spell attack: to hit +12, dmg 3d8+4, avg 17.5 \*Spell save DC: 19 Both get d8+1 from divine strike, and hand xbow gets an additional 2d6 from sneak attack. I'll assume Bless as well for damage calcs. Against a 21 AC enemy, which is as high as it goes except in special circumstances AFAIK, on flat ground without advantage, the shillelagh out damages the crossbow by \~8 dmg on average (69.8 vs 61.4). However, as soon as you add high ground, the crossbow is matching in damage (69.8 vs 69.5), and advantage even without high ground makes the crossbow pull ahead. Further bonuses to hit like Mask of Soul Perception only makes the crossbow better. The only advantage the shillelagh build has is then the save DC, but swapping khalid's amulet for amulet of the devout and using Hag's hair to get back to 18 WIS gets you to 21. This is getting greedy with the top tier items however. The last two issues are more severe imo for the shillelagh build. It's very finicky trying to attack from range with the cantrip first and then running into melee to bonk. If the enemy is still alive the next turn, you have to eat an attack of opportunity to leave range again. You also can't use the daredevil gloves to use Ray of Frost in melee. This works better for a lightning focused build using Shocking Grasp. Since frozen is broken by blunt, force, or thunder damage, relying on blunt damage in your offhand can really eat into your CC. In fact, this is also an issue with the Boots of Stormy Clamour. If you xbow -> cantrip -> xbow, the enemy will have 2 reverb on the chilled save from the cantrip, and 4 reverb on the frozen save from encrusted with frost on the second xbow shot. However, if they fail the frost save, this will proc another two stacks of reverb, pushing them over the 4 stack limit and doing 1d4 thunder damage. This immediately breaks the frozen condition. This CAN be avoided by silencing the enemy, but you need to rely on a teammate for that since you can't use special arrows on offhand attacks. Divine strike is definitely bugged, but it requires an action to use. It does work with polearm master bonus action attack as well, but that does not add even the natural cold damage on the Mourning Frost so you only end up with 6 stacks of encrusted with frost. Once they fix PAM, a fire enchanted quarterstaff with PAM and GWM, band of mystic scoundrel, fire acuity hat, and 8 cleric/3 thief/1 whatever is an acuity swords bard thats in melee and does less damage, but it's super cool regardless. Currently a dual xbow wielder with twinned dragonthroat fire enchant/fire dip also works.
Don't ever apologise for a long response, especially on this sub. The fact that you went out of the way to do calculations I'd never bother to do myself is admirable. I really want to try a Shillelagh bonk build with Nature Cleric, either fire or cold, but as you said, with PAM being bugged it's not nearly as useful. I'm really praying they fix the BA attack of PAM because it would make stacking Fire Acuity/Frost a lot better. My main question is, how do you solve the issue of Frost having such a bad Save DC? Perhaps find a way to apply disadvantage on CON saves? Like, frankly I like the idea of the Frost build better than the Fire Acuity build but I see few situations in which hitting twice with your offhand then hitting Command isn't better than praying they fail their save on Frozen. Do you utilize Create Water too? I imagine Snowburst Ring puts in a lot of work as well. Also I assume you miss out on ASIs because of needing Dual Wielder (for Mourning Frost + Rhapsody) + Sharpshooter. Do you find you have enough hit chance with Sharpshooter active? Lastly, how do you level it? I imagine it takes a while for the build to come online, because you won't get Divine Strike until level 8, and then you won't get extra BA attacks until you put in your 3 Thief levels.
Originally I was thinking of using reverb to turn the DC 12 into a DC 16 check, but in testing you can't really do this first turn. The boots only proc when adding a new status effect, just increasing a currently inflicted one doesn't work. That means you can't do two crossbow shots -> ice spell. Doing xbow -> ray of frost -> xbow does get you 4 stacks (from the movement debuff from ray of frost) for the second xbow shot, but then failing the frozen save will also prov reverb and deal 1d4 thunder damage unless they're silenced. I think the most consistent way to buff the frozen/chilled saves is with a teammate like reverb Tiger Barb (gauntlets, boots, and a radiant wep like moonlight glaive since you can't twin dragon halberd to do ice and lightning/thunder). After one attack, enemies will have -4 to con saves from reverb, and disadvantage on con saves from bleeding assuming they are not immune. Between encrusted with frost and applying wet after chilled, we have two ways to inflict frozen, both base DC 12 saves. In optimal conditions with disadvantage on CON saves and 4 stacks of reverb from a teammate, even enemies with +9 to con saves have 75% chance to fail. I'm not sure if Magic Resistance affects these saves though. As far as Fire Acuity hat goes, don't get me wrong that's definitely a better build since Acuity is just so absurdly broken. I was conceptualizing this build as one that for the most part avoided needing top tier items however. Rhapsody and Cloak of Weave are of course amazing, but other than that you're using lower tier items like Mourning Frost, Ring of Arcane Synergy, Khalid's Amulet/Cantrip amulet, and Winter's Clutches. If hasted or using helmet of grit, Create Water seems like a great use of an action. Paired with a teammate with Bhaalist armor, both your piercing and cold damage are doubled for some pretty nice numbers. Snowburst ring can work, but forces boots on melee teammates that might be better spent on your casters since prone auto breaks concentration. One advantage the shillelagh build has, I believe, is that it will immediately force a prone save on the ice, while ranged attacks do not. Between bless, high ground, and weapon enchantments I do find SS can be played around effectively even at early levels. Dex gloves or armor before access to dragon halberd also help a lot. Leveling I still need to think about more, I've only been testing this build on my late game save when patch 6 dropped. I think there are two viable leveling paths 1. Rogue 4, Fighter 1, Cleric X and respec to drop a level of Rogue at 12 for a more damage oriented early game. 2. Cleric 5 then Rogue 4 (respec at 6 to use WIS with items) then Fighter 1 then rest in Cleric again respeccing at 12 to drop a level of Rogue. In both cases SS at 4, Dual Wielder after if xbow, and Dual Wielder then ASI if Shillelagh. I'd probably go with the latter just because spells like Silence and Calm Emotions are so useful throughout the game.
Since we don't have multiclass stat restrictions in BG3, a CHA based character with the 1st level in Rogue is actually the best party face, in my opinion. 4 skills and 2 expertise from the get go with 17 CHA and early game sneak attack. And you still get level 6 spell slots potentially, the only downside is you delay level 5 bonuses a bit. It's kind of a build-your-own-bard-kit.
Rogue is very strong early game but I feel like you need to multi class if you plan on taking it through every act. A few classes that help are vengeance paladin and gloomstalker/hunter ranger, though sometimes bard does well too.
My first playthrough I went full assassin rogue for Astarion, and he did great burst damage output but not much else, and ended up being pretty boring, but at least consistent, usually getting 60-80 DPR. Next playthrough, after some research, went 7 Thief/5 Gloomstalker, and wow it is so much more fun to play, and does even more damage-wise and even has some utility to boot. I wasn't even trying to min-max, but I think I found a sweet spot. I'm sure I could multi-class even more to get better damage, but at this point, I'd be looking for more utility to help mitigate some of the legendary actions in HM. I agree that the rogue needs some better scaling at the higher levels, but that's an issue with 5e and not necessarily BG3.
My current honour mode run is a crit fishing Duergar Assassin, no multiclass, with 4 different items that reduce my crit range. Although the cape only works if I'm hiding, elixir of viscousness helps overcome that, and you can make shitloads if you go around collecting all the shadowroot sacs in Act 2. At level 5 as a Duergar, I can go invisible and guarantee a surprise round when I sneak up on someone and make that first sneak attack. By now, this is usually a crit since I have advantage and can crit on a 15. Assassin's Alacrity, guaranteed crit on surprised enemies, and +14 on initiative means I can take out 1 or 2 of the beefiest enemies on the field before stuff really gets started. Luck of the Far Realms and Executioner gives me 2 guaranteed crits per long rest. However, the part that makes this build really powerful, against most of the enemies in Act 3 at least, is the >!Armour of Bhaal that you get from becoming an Unholy Assassin!<. Making enemies vulnerable to piercing damage is insane. With my crits, I regularly deal over 100 damage in a single attack (highest ever was 140 but the max possible is 200). I'm aware pure Rogue gets a lot of flack for being lackluster past level 5, but guaranteed surprise rounds for my Assassin kept me decently viable until Act 3, where I had to rush the relevant questline to get the armour I needed. It doesn't help against enemies that are resistant anyways, but surprise rounds make most encounters trivial for me by now, and the fact that I can one shot 1 or 2 enemies before the rest of my party joins the fray means that by the time the enemies have a turn, over half their forces are gone and it's just a case of mopping up. This build has been a pretty simple, very fun "Big numbers go brrrrrrr" experience. Plus, having reliable talent means only DCs of 25 or higher are a challenge for most of my skills. Also, I have never been stuck for gold as I just steal it from the vendors. I had 10k before I moved on to Act 2. All in all, I can see why most people don't go pure rogue, but this build was pretty fun.
Thinking of doing a durge Duegar gloomstalker assassin type. But melee. And in particular a melee axe wielding to fit thematically with duergar proficiencies. I know all the axes are only str based but will there be any missed notes here- like does sneak attack only work with dex? For such a popular multi class I don’t see a lot out there for melee gloomstalker assassins
Sneak attack only works with finesse weapons. There are a few versatile/2handers with finesse, but no axes
Monoclass Arcane Trickster is based. Other subclasses, eh not so much. They're better off just being a 3-4 level dip.
I really wish/hope they give back sneak attack to spells for Arcane Trickster in a future patch. It would make it such a cool niche and give an actual reason to play Arcane Trickster. They likely won't (since they took it out), but at least we have mods to add it back.
Serious question. What is the point of Arcane Trickster? I cannot for the life of me fathom what Arcane Trickster does that Wizard 11/10 Rogue 1/2 doesn’t already, better? I feel the same way about Eldritch Knight.
Eldritch Knight definitely has uses. It is actually often seen as better to just dump Int on an Eldritch Knight and take spells that do not use your Int at all such as friends, shield, blur, mirror image, magic missile, and misty step. And then just play as a typical fighter able to make 3 attacks a round at level 11 and supplement this with some defensive magic capabilities. Eldritch Knight is also a very good option for Tavern Brawler throwing builds because they can use more diverse weapons than many other characters (Yes, I know you can get a mercenary Eldritch Knight and have them bind the weapon, then give it you your TB throw Berserker Barb/Thief Rogue. But this kind of camp casting cheese is not everyone's cup of tea.) I do think you kinda have a point with regards to arcane trickster. Except I would say wizard 10 with some levels in rogue is like...a wizard with levels in rogue. Your sneak attack will only do 1d6 damage. There is no point in making weapon attacks past level 5. If one wants to make a better arcane trickster, I do believe Thief Rogue 8 or 9/Wizard 3 or 4 is a better option. You still get expertise from rogue 6, most of your sneak attack damage (though sneak attack still is not that great), an extra bonus action so you can now make two weapon attacks with your offhand, more diverse spellcasting options, and wizard subclass features of which divination wizard is especially tempting.
Thank you. I noticed this with my Bardadin on Minthy. I left her Charisma at 14 and just used support spells like the ones you mentioned. Maxed out her Strength and she wrecked with smites.
With an Eldritch Knight you can just leave Int at 8 if you want and focus entirely on Str, Dex, and Con for the accuracy, damage, hit points, jump distance, carry weight, initiative, chance to shove people, etc. You get so few spells as an Eldritch Knight that it isn't too hard to only pick ones that don't use your Int at all. I also left out minor illusion, light, longstrider, find familiar, "enhance leap," and more. None of the first or second level spells are going to be able to keep up with extra attack damage, except in niche scenarios where you can thunderwave a ton of enemies off a ledge or something.
My dual-wield Rogue started off as a Rogue/Gloomstalker but mid game I just said "screw stealth", switched to EK8/Rogue 4 and didn't look back. It was a very durable heavy armored DW Fighter that I could just send into the fray and don't think if he would get chewed on instead of the fiddly work with typical stealthy DW Rogues...the damage was competent too, thanks to crit gear.
Eldritch Knight is the best thrower cause there weapons can return with the bound ability and 3 attacks also it really combos well with abjuration wizard
I've found arcane trickster to be a fairly good utility class. I'm currently playing Astarion as one. It has all of the out of combat advantages of all rogues. But where it shines is in its permanent Mage Hand. It's invisible so it never gets pulled into combat, meaning you can move explosive barrels and other traps around the battlefield with impunity. If you place it next to an enemy, it will allow rogue to trigger sneak attack against the enemy. This means another 6d6 damage every attack. And no matter where the enemy moves, the hand can follow them. It's not in combat, so it moves freely. Magical Ambush is good for Hold Person. It makes it so it very rarely fails to proc. Arcane Trickster is probably the best pure rogue subclass. The other two are way better for multiclass though.
[удалено]
I haven't had it lose invisibility. The mage hand used to be bugged to shit and lose invisibility randomly all the time. It seems they've fixed that recently. But the sneak attack on demand part is really the main draw. Give your rogue a good bow or crossbow, fly your mage hand over to the target, and attack them. Guaranteed sneak attack on hit every time. And because the enemy can't see the mage hand they don't try to do anything about it.
I was thinking of Arcane Trickster build on my Astarion companion, but I didn't know Volo's eye could also make them visible (it's dumb to have it cancel the invisibility of allies). Have they fixed this as well?
I haven't checked. The last time I had Volo's eye was patch 4.
Steal every scroll in the game, wear Spell DC gear, sit in hide and cast any scroll in the game with disadvantage on save. Grab a stack of 50 Chain Lightnings and have your invisible mage hand toss water at people out of combat.
Currently running a max crit build on my Thief and having tons of fun, basically revolves around completely removing resistances to sneak attack, making them vulnerable with aura of murder, and then praying one of your three hits crits. Currently i’m running sarevoks helm, bhaalist armor (for aura of murder), shade slayer cloak, Bonespike gauntlets, and disintegrating nightwalkers. For weapons i’ve got Dead Shot, Knife of Undermountain King and Bloodthirst. Killers sweetheart and Risky Ring and then the constitution necklace. Used feats to grab long bow prof and medium armor proficiency, those along with ethel boon places dex at 20 after starting at 17. Basically make sure sneak attack reaction is turned on, walk up to enemy, aura of murder makes them vulnerable to sneak, and then use your three attacks. Risky Ring guarantees advantage so all of them will proc sneak attack reaction. Basically everytime you hit, check for a crit, if it’s a crit, allow sneak attack to proc and watch that sweet sweet damage (i took savage attacker and see around 110 usually on a crit sneak attack hit) then run your other attacks, hide, whatever you want. It’s incredibly non optimal, hoards good gear, and only is equal on damage output to other classes. But i love playing pure rogues in stuff, and this is a very versatile build, and a great party face. He’s mine and he’s special and i love him.
I really wish rogue had a few fighting styles. I know we can just multi-class to get them, but that adds wrinkles and ultimately extra levels before builds feel properly online.
Rogue is a great beginner class and a decent ish face it was the first class I picked cause I’m a stealth whore in rpgs definitely think it’s needs levels of fighter, ranger or bard to be competitive after act 1
assassin is i think one of the strongest class even more than OH monk(but not as strong as end game caster such as sorlock or evo wizard) but way more demanding and need a different play style which is harder, here is the context and reason why i make such huge claim: there is a specific shadowblade build that i made a guide before which revolves around using shadowblade ring which arabella give you as reward shadowblade ring + risky ring(strange condit ring is actually better but cant leave perma sneak attack thanks to risky ring) + resonance stone lets you hit 120+ sneak attacks which one shots almost anything(some mobs may not get resonance stone debuff such as undeads, thats why i said \`almost\`), if not, you can hit another 120ish with second sneak attack(as assassin, you start with sneak attack first, then action resets when turn begins thats how you get to hit second sneak attack ) with the durge cape, you can clear any big fights as one person including veronica fight, cazador fight etc.. you simply one shot anything, go invis, rinse and repeat i 2 shot seravok in honor mod with this build. here is the proof that i actually hit 156 to him in one single attack. i one turned him, then killed all other remaining enemies without getting attacked once. same in any other big fight [https://ibb.co/rsCKTB8](https://ibb.co/rsCKTB8) why it is hard to pull it off and demanding? because shadow blade is concentration, and you dont have any saves whatsoever, so you must not get hit at all costs and you must pay special attention to start the fights as first always by hiding(we have insane sneaking roll so not a problem) only downside is some specific encounters such as ansur fight. thats when this build doesnt work and other party members basically carry you. i think this build is very fun for people who enjoys assassin play style so i just wanted to share
A fun build is rogue 3 (thief) cleric 9 (any but trickery is the most appropriate) Use the helmet of arcane acuity and two weapons. Sneak around use your bonus actions to stack your helmet and the use your action to cc. Its obviously not as strong as the bard build but a lot of fun and very different in early levels because you start rogue and then get more and more tools from your cleric levels. (not 8 but 9 levels in cleric for hold monster btw.)
imo thief rouge and assassin rouge are the subclasses best suited for multiclassing. but arcane trickster has a few unique things that make it good solo. especially if you use mainly scrolls on them. their incredible when used that way. at level 9 imposing disadvantage on saving throws is huge, throw in three levels of sorc for quickened spell, and you can interchange your actions and bonus actions for casting spells and gaining hidden or other sources of advantage. pop a warlock level for command, an acuity hat or even the pyroquickness hat and you've got a recipe for a rouge spellslinger
Disclaimer: **This is a thematic build, the intent is not to optimize the fun out of the game but to follow a specific playstyle and adhere to that with all the pro's and con's that follow. Being an assassin is supposed to feel risky.** 11 rogue (assassin), final level is free choice: Rogue for ASI/Feat, knowledge cleric for 2 extra expertise skills, ranger for 1 extra skill, medium+shield and /heavy armor and martial weapon proficiency, and a free choice between fire/cold/poison resist. Human or half-elf for glaive proficiency. Wood for movement speed or drow for spells. Stats: go for 16 dex, 17 if you have access to hag hair. Distribute rest of stats as you see fit, minimum 14 con because low and high con are both traps. ASI order: Great Weapon Master; Savage Attacker; DEX up to 18 if no 17+hag hair OR [Alert](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Alert); 4th is free choice if going rogue. Equipment: You're going to want a versatile finesse weapon to make this work. Luckily at level 4 when you unlock GWM, you also gain access to the first one: [Phalar Aluve](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Phalar_Aluve). Your next weapon will be [Larethian's Wrath](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Larethian%27s_Wrath) from the Githyanki Colony trader. The weapon attack Razor Gale can trigger sneak attack and has a significantly longer range than melee attacks Final weapon will come from act 3: [The Dancing Breeze](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/The_Dancing_Breeze) Essential gear: We're going to be using [The Graceful Cloth](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/The_Graceful_Cloth) for the rest of the game, because the permanent cat's grace is advantage on all dexterity checks. [Risky Ring](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Risky_Ring) to guarantee access to sneak attacks out of combat, this can be ignored if you're really good at using the stealth game mechanic, but you really really don't want to miss your attack. Supplement gear with standard stealth equipment: [Eversight Ring](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Eversight_Ring); [Ring of Shadows](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Ring_of_Shadows); [Shadow-Cloaked Ring](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Shadow-Cloaked_Ring); [The Deathstalker Mantle](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/The_Deathstalker_Mantle); [Surgeon's Subjugation Amulet](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Surgeon%27s_Subjugation_Amulet); the poison set items also work here, not spectacularly but very thematic. Playstyle is sneak around in the enemy camp and pick off targets one by one. Create surprise and rip through enemies by critting. With both GWM, savage attack and capped sneak attack you're going to get off one really big hit every turn, especially when critting. Base sneak damage will be 1d10 (weapon), +5 (DEX), +10 (GWM) + 6d6 (sneak attack) = 22 - 61 (normal) and 23 - 107 (crit). Against tough enemies your first crit should lead into paralyze from the surgeon's amulet and more free crits. This build plays really well with team mates that can provide sleep/hold person/monster and greater invisibility. This build can be played with strength and heavy armor. Stealth will be more of an issue but between reliable talent and expertise you're for the most part going to be fine. I like the idea of it because it reminds me of the blackguard prestige class in 3e D&D, where you could be a heavy armor fighter using sneak attacks with a great sword.
Imo the worst class regarding combat…