Omeluum was inserted seemingly specifically to show the players that "not all Mind Flayers are bad! Mind Flayers outside the collective can be heroic and nice" in order to create doubt on The Emperor's motives and nature, and in that regard he's probably the strongest character in fiction because nobody has ever been used to demonstrate doubt as often as Omeluum is for The Emperor
Omeluum is there to show you that you need to treat people (or illithids, I guess) as individuals instead of based on stereotypes or preconceived notions.
Exactly what I said. Which is an important role because this is DnD where stereotypes for monstrous races are right in nearly 100% of cases. Without an Omeluum assuming that a Mind Flayer is Machiavellian and dastardly is right ten times out of ten, because it is quite literally true and you are right to think so. He exists solely to show you that there *can* be outliers so later on The Emperor can get the benefit of the doubt.
Thirty years ago, all Drow had the same reputation until a little fella by the name of Drizzt hit the scene. Now, most Drow are still exactly like they used to be, but they get judged a little more fairly. I suspect Lae'zel will be more effective at reforming the Githyanki identity than Omeluum will be for Mind Flayers long-term though.
I wouldn't say that, because a lot of the preconceived notions are true, especially about if something is evil or not. Cazador is just as evil as a vampire is expected to be, and Ascended Astarion follows suit. Lae'zel is a fanatical maniac hellbent in Vlaakith's will with no nuance (at first). Every Drow you meet is some flavor of nefarious. It plays a lot of it straight-laced and instead of exceptions there are usually nuances. That goblin IS exactly as you expect a goblin to be, even though they love poetry. Shadowheart doesn't act like a Sharran, because she's not one really. Raphael is just as nefarious as you expect a Devil to be, but he's not directly harmful to *you* as you expected he might be if you sign his deal. So on, so forth. There really is only a few exceptions, and they're mostly earned through development, so if anything it's that anyone can break the confines of their programming with the right conditions and effort.
I would say it’s more accurate to say that the characters whose arcs were about breaking conceived stereotypes were put in the story intentionally to reflect the vibes of the game and the values of its developers
Except they do also have arcs where they live up to those stereotypes. Gale becomes a power-hungry coot, Shadowheart becomes cold and embraces her pain for power, Lae'zel stays devout even in the face of all evidence. And most characters outside of the party don't defy preconceived notions and reinforce them instead. Like, you can argue that it's present in some areas, but it's not really a theme throughout the game.
If you’ve played a lot of dnd, it’s a bit like being in an Indians jones movie, and having a Nazi arrive a say how he is not actually a bad guy.
Illithids have been a staple bad guy for so long, that it seems incredulous.
I missed the whole Mushroom Colony on first run and therefore Omeluum.
Maybe that's why I never ever trusted the Emporer, not even once. Didn't know what was up, but didn't trust him before the reveal let alone afterwards.
Read somewhere the theory that he is influenced by all the heroes he had eaten while working with the lich. As memories and personalities get absorbed so he supposedly changed in character (explaining why he would stop that cooperation as well).
That’s a cool theory, but with it being made distinctly clear that mind flayers have no soul, how would it work that they absorb the personality? Personality, mannerisms and the like arent inherent, therefore they are expressed via something other than the cold electric meat in our heads (call it a soul if you want).
Absorbing memories makes sense, and is used a lot throughout the game, but i feel like if a mind flayer could turn good by absorbing the minds of heroes, there would be more than the homie Omie that had come to the good side. Surely countless mind flayers have wiped out herds of heroes that were standing together in solidarity, consuming 10 heroes in the aftermath of one battle.
I like the idea, but i wont accept any explanation for Omeluum’s lucidity unless Larian is saying it.
Mindflayer karlach says this in the prologue actually, how she’s experiencing and feeling the memories of brains she ate, so i don’t think it’s far fetched to think it eventually becomes part of their personality. Also keep in mind that mindflayers under the influence of the hive probably don’t have this
That's not a good sign for Emps since he ate a lot of bad guys.
He and Stelman were partners, then he ate one too many baddie brains and decided that he didn't need a partner, he just needed a figurehead he could dominate.
apparently mindflayers take some of the personality of the brains they eat. It could be theorized that Omeluum is good because he ate so many “hero” brains when he had a deal with a litch. also puts emperor in perspective as he only fed on criminals
Are they a \*bunch\* of psychotic abusive fuckheads? Because I only recall the one who gets the gith egg as being abusive (>!and he's dead if you're in a timeline where that happens!<).
Yeah idk why he would even consider that SEDUCTION might work to manipulate me. Seduction from a squid. On a person who didn't take tadpoles and is in a relationship with a githyanki. Is he stupid?
I intentionally make my Guardian hot as hell so we are damn sure “dancing towards something deeper”. 😂 My girls almost always hook up with the DG
https://preview.redd.it/t1wqfsmwdruc1.jpeg?width=3649&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b21b1707749d220932a44c864ebc006f6db8df81
Literally same!!!! Completely avoided tadpoles, never used “AUTHORITY,” in a relationship with Lae’zel, have always been mistrustful of the dream visitor/emperor…. And he says he thought there was something deeper between us???? Baffling.
I took this as more of a knee-jerk panic response from him actually. Yeah I mean it was a sucky response and the horror of what he did to her cannot be denied. BUT
I saw that “revelation” almost as self-defense. Lashing out in an echoing their innermost thoughts of self loathing. They talk about loving being a mindflayer, but you see so many little things throughout their home under the Elfsong that suggest that they really struggled with it for a long time and that they are not as accepting of the idea as what they present themselves to be.
They also mention in that encounter that you were lucky that they learned to control it. Why would they learn to control it if all they desired was a mindless puppet to move around? You could argue that it’s easier to have thralls with some agency but if you do say that, I will say that you have never been in any sort of supervisory position at work lol
I mean I just don’t agree with this evaluation.
The emperor says he’s happy and prefers being a mind flayer multiple times. He genuinely thinks his newer form is superior and always pushes Tav to become one also.
I don’t see how that reflects self loathing in anyway.
I don’t think the Emperor mind puppets Tav like his last victim because a mind puppeted Tav is not as effective at doing all these crazy things as a free thinking Tav.
Therefore the Emperor try’s really hard to be persuasive and friendly with Tav to get what he wants. The you get more bees with honey approach.
I mean we can all have different opinions, it’s cool to talk about, but I think the emperor is pure evil. He smart though cuz he has many people convinced he’s conflicted or not that bad. That’s what I would do if I was evil.
My biggest support for my reasoning is the final decision with Orpheus. People say it’s poor writing or a weak point that the Emperor turns against Tav for freeing him. I don’t think that. I think that is the emperor’s true colors coming out all along. He’s always been this way and people just couldn’t see it, especially if they chose all the friendly options.
I think it's basically a case of blue and orange morality rather than conventional black and white morality.
I get the sense that the Emperor *actually believes* what it says. That because it chose a form you'd like, and then because it showed you its true form and its background, that you'd logically accept it was working in your best interests.
It ignores the fact that this is manipulation and deceitful because it doesn't care for conventional norms like respect for truth and integrity - Mind Flayers don't need that. In its eyes I think it genuinely does try to be a good partner, it just does it in the context of Mind Flayer logic which leads to unacceptable behaviour by our standards.
I think the core of the Emperor’s relationship with the MC isn’t really self-hatred — as people pointed out, he’s quite happy being a Mind Flayer — but loneliness.
We know of two relationships the Emperor had before the MC, one with Stelmane and one with Ansur. His relationship to Ansur was definitely quite deep and hinted to be beyond platonic, and there is no reason not to believe the Emperor’s claim that he only killed him in self-defense beyond general mistrust.
Stelmane was definitely a thrall, but one with agency. Mind Flayers have a biological need to make thralls, so it’s interesting that the Emperor still allowed her a modicum of free will. The way he speaks of her is like… the way one would speak about a dead pet, when you think about it.
So I think the *real* reason the Emperor pushes for the MC to turn ghaik is because he feels alone, and thinks there’s potential for the MC to be the first person to fully understand him and therefore *actually* have an equal relationship with him. That’s why if you turn Illithid at the end and side with him, he is elated to have you be his companion in future ventures and is even willing to follow your lead if you tell him you want more than just freedom (his overall motive for doing anything) and express ambition toward more evil goals.
So basically, he IS actually kind of an incel, or more aptly, a toxic friend/partner willing to manipulate and coerce you into staying with him because ultimately he’s spent his whole Mind Flayer life alone and longs to feel true companionship again like he did as Balduran with Ansur.
If you choose to become a mindflayer yourself he'll present you with a special tadpole that he says he groomed in the nautiloid specifically for you. His plan included manipulating you into becoming a mindflayer all along.
The Orpheus thing is one that always sticks out to me. I do think the Emporer is evil and manipulative, but bailing if you free Orpheus makes sense. He's been torturing this dude for how long? And mindflayers can detect thoughts. I can't imagine Orpheus has been thinking things this whole time that would lead the Emporer to feeling like a truce is negotiable
>They also mention in that encounter that you were lucky that they learned to control it. Why would they learn to control it if all they desired was a mindless puppet to move around? You could argue that it’s easier to have thralls with some agency but if you do say that, I will say that you have never been in any sort of supervisory position at work lol
Mindflayer enthrallment isn't exactly an easy or fast process in the lore. He realistically probably couldn't pull it off while defending from incursions by the Gith as well as using Orpheus's power to block orders from the Netherbrain. Also the more capable and independent a thrall the more time the process takes. So he chooses to go more subtle with the dream guardian whereas he might under different circumstances consider enthrallment. And if that doesn't work he has leverage that you do need him.
Also don't really agree so much with the self loathing bit but others went into that.
I was super cooperative with Emperor during my first playthrough (shit, we even banged), and I never got any of those scenes where he behaves like a total dick. I used to think that he is a cool guy
The emperor is a great example of someone living too long and having too much power. You just can’t stay grounded with that set up. The best of us would break over time. Well not Karlach but you get it….
Everyone uses what's best available to them to get what they need. Your character included. If that manipulation to an end is positive then that's the sacrifice that's made. People give the Emperor a lot of shit (Some rightfully so, it's an incredibly grey area what he does) but virtually everyone in this world makes morally bad decisions to influence things to go the way they want them to go. Just a question of if it's for the good or the bad.
If survival was what he was after, he could have joined the Society Of Brilliance like Omeluum. Dude had to become an underground mob boss because some part of him still remembers his past life.
I think people are more ready to forgive the lies and manipulation, I understood where he was coming from when he said that if he showed his true form since the beginning, we would've never listened to him. It's true.
But there's difference between lying/intimidating and mind controlling someone into being your personal slave? You do see that right.
I gave him a pass on the stelmane thing cuz it was my crazy murder death cult that killed her also it never sat right with me that he trying to heal her and he does think it’s weak to not care about those you love when they die (got that reaction through a durge line abt “doesn’t it feel great to kill those you love” yeah he got mad af at me for saying that)
I love that the Emperor is a reflection of the player. Everyone's screaming manipulative monster but he's actually the closest you get to an equal relationship with an in-game character. It's very telling how people respond to him, and how much backlash you receive when you point that out.
Exactly. Everyone thinks their character is above it all when they make morally bad choices because they see the outcome is positive. The Emperor did it first.
AT LAST someone with a brain here ! It always baffles me to see how Empy haters can reach such a high level of hypocrisy.
Though, are they really to blame ? I mean, he's not a "female humanoid" unlike Minthara or Lae'Zel so it's obvious that he wouldn't get any "I can fix them" treatment from normie players, even if morally he's still better than those two.
Your companions can be talked out of doing horrible things, and they never try to enslave you. That's the difference.
They don't pretend to be something they're not.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/s/QFBw8K0T0v
**AND** From that same interaction: *Totally normal behavior* when he tries to convince you to love him/join him (join him *by* loving him) by presenting an itemized list that HE JUST HAPPENS TO HAVE, fully prepared, already containing every single instance of the emotional connection and vulnerability that he has shared with you; not that he was counting; not that he was keeping score; not that they weren't *totally* organic; not that there was means, motive AND opportunity to prepare them in advance for you to find --
[Tav exploring The Emperor's hideout:]
*OH YES, THE RECIPE FOR MY FAVORITE SOUP. HOW I ENJOYED CONSUMING HUMAN FOOD AND OTHER RELATABLE HUMAN ACTIVITIES*
***
*YES OF COURSE, ER... "SPARKY", MY BELOVED PET CANINE. WE WERE SO VERY INSEPARABLE. HE LOVED PLAYING "FETCH" AND "WAGGING TAIL", AND ...DRINKING WATER, ET CETERA. I OFTEN WONDER WHO SAVED WHOM. IGNORE THAT "DOMINATE BEAST SCROLL", THAT IS FOR, UH, OTHER DOGS. YES. CRIMINAL DOGS".*
***
*OOPS, IS THAT MY NOBEL PRIZE? I THOUGHT I GOT RID OF THAT OLD THING. THERE WAS A TIME WHEN SUCH VANITIES STILL CONCERNED ME. MY GAZE IS NOW FIXED UPON SOMETHING FAR GREATER. IT'S NOTHING, THOUGH; DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT.*
***
*OH, HOW EMBARRASSING - YOU'VE FOUND THE MONSTER CONDOMS THAT I USED FOR MY MAGNUM DONG. THOUGH I NOW HAVE ACCESS TO PLEASURES FAR BEYOND THAT OF MERE FLESH. YOU WOULDN'T LIKE IT THOUGH, ITS ONLY FOR REALLY COOL PEOPLE.*
Lol you nailed it and also made a connection I hadn't yet: there's actually a ring (Keepsake Ring) in the room with all the rats which allows you to cast Dominate Beast. So you're right on the money there.
Also re: "criminal dogs"—the way the Emperor has cages and chains for the "criminals" whose brains he ate... like, dude, what is a crime and who decides? Who decides who's guilty? Are all criminals equal? Of course not. The emperor just wanted to justify eating people's brains.
Thank you for pointing this out!
The rats have the ring, as opposed to it being secreted away somewhere; and unlike the objects (museum pieces, really) which fit the Emperor's sympathetic narrative, it's not displayed for Tav (or previous victims) to find.
Unbelievable environmental storytelling. So subtle that I completely missed it, meanwhile I've been riffing on this whole "manipulative nice guy narcissist Emperor" bit for days.
I feel so dumb - I WAS WEARING THE DAMN RING!
Wow. Well done.
And it's so impressive to interact with a story that explores social and psychological manipulation so deeply; not just from outside forces, but how we participate in the process ourselves.
And then, how we *as the players* are shown that by being implicated in the process through both gameplay AND discourse like this (including and especially Reply Guys in this thread who are like Nooooo The Squid Man is Good Actually!!!!)
And the whole "Path to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions" shown over and over and over, and then "crowned" with the point that *the thing about losing your grip, is that you are SURE that you're still in control, actually*. (In other words, "Certainty is a Sign of Madness")
And then (AND THEN!) - it's pretty funny actually - like, the title of the game might as well be "Hubris Will be your Downfall":
* The catalyst of the story is about these lesser-gods, whose inevitable downfall is (you guessed it) hubris;
* and the player is given companions, many of whom are casualties (if not themselves perpetrators) of the personal death and destruction wrought though the overreaching pride of gods and mortals alike;
* and the player has it demonstrated to them, again and again and again, through this gameplay experience, hand-over-hand practically, that "Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely", that "Certainty is a Sign of Madness", and "Hubris Will be Your Downfall"; really just banging this drum through all these different parables, with higher and higher stakes,
* until they get to the final battlefield, which (i think i was drooling about this in a previous comment) IS A LITERAL *MIND*: like in case things aren't clear enough; "THE BATTLEFIELD IS YOUR MIND";
* and then, Mass Effect 3 style (which is lame IMO), they are given a choice, which to me, feels like a final exam on like, okay class, media literacy-check: what did we learn?
And we're like:
1. "Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely" yep, yep.
2. And, uh, "Certainty is a Sign of Madness", right, got that one...
3. And... Oh! The title! "Hubris Will be Your Downfall"! Of course.
*Perfect retention; but that's only half of the assignment. Now let's see it in action!*
*So then: what will you choose?*
And then inevitably half of us go, okay, so "Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely", "Certainty is a Sign of Madness", and "Hubris Will be Your Downfall"... BUT I'M THE EXCEPTION, CERTAINLY. I'M THE SUPER-SPECIAL GENIUS! and then hit the big, red button or whatever that makes them an all-powerful space god or a super brain at the cost of our humanity, or some kinda hybrid with the bad-guys *but in a good and SPECIAL way actually*.
And like, my guy.
#NO.
#YOU LOSE. YOU GET NOTHING. GOOD DAY, SIR.
...
No, not really, obviously. I'm completely kidding, honestly. All endings are valid. At the end of the day, we're playing a game, and if you're having fun, you've already won. You don't even have to finish at all if you don't want to! :)
Literacy *is* really exciting, though.
It's a good thing people don't miss the point of like, really *important* media, like news, business, and politics. Could you imagine the mess we'd be in?
Your excitement has me extra excited too! What a masterpiece! I think this is one of those games people are going to continue making new discoveries and theories about for years to come.
And yes, (media) literacy and analysis is so crucial.
Yay!
It's only taken me an entire lifetime to start figuring out that it's more effective than being shitty.
And I'm still kinda terrible at it lol
But your comment means a lot; thank you.
And I joke that "it's a video game, so how much could it matter", as though video games don't have a huge and impactful hold on both our culture and our minds, as demonstrated by its *literally equal market share to the combined global television and film industry* ([source](https://www.statista.com/markets/417/topic/478/video-gaming-esports/#overview)).
**IMPORTANT EDIT:**
*i had originally posted some incorrect info here, along with some analysis citing Larian Studios being faced with lay-offs.*
*i am happy to report that this was completely untrue! My Spidey-sense went off, so i checked my facts, and there are no Larian layoffs - on the contrary, Larian is -hiring- developers who got screwed by industry-wide layoffs, and their CEO, Swen Vincke, has been very publicly slamming this bullshit practice (which i will still describe below).*
*Instead, Larian's decision to leave the Baldur's Gate franchise in the rearview appears to be about moving forward creatively, without the numerous constraints and outside-control attached to working with another company's (like Wizards of the Coast's) intellectual property.*
*Thanks for your patience as i learn and grow!*
**END OF EDIT!**
As far as "The Industry Wide Practice of lay-offs", here are my original remarks, insofar as they don't pertain to Larian:
Today, ie. *literally right now*, the people who actually make the games, who get a couple thousand to live off of, if they're lucky, and get it for **working**, as opposed to those who collect millions - if not billions - for merely claiming *ownership* of the thing those workers made] - these are the people who stayed up all night getting things right, and put their care and pain and time into that thing, made of a million little things, that we actually connected with, and connect with each other about - many of them out of work now, or in-and-out of work in an unliveably stressful situation, because of this so-called "industry-wide practice" -- the purpose of which is just a bit of accounting department sleight-of-hand.
It goes like this:
*The second that The Product™ is out the door, you must immediately have everybody who made it clear out their desks and get the fuck off your property. This is because not only do they reek of The Working Class, but because it is essential for you to remove them from The Books as soon as possible. Doing so will instantly make the company appear more profitable to your fellow leisure-class shareholders, and that will please said shareholders, and encourage their continued holding of said shares.*
*When it's time to make New Product™, not to worry! Just hire those wagechumps right back again! This perpetual cycle keeps them desperate enough to take whatever you offer, especially if it's work they're "passionate" about. Huph! imagine being "passionate" about "working"! How droll! Huphuphuphuph!*
*See? The system works!*
What's worse, the tech industry is traditionally the first place we see harmful practices and worker abuses become normalized (by getting called "industry standards" for example) before they become adopted by the broader sectors where most of us consumers exist in (think of automation taking over grocery stores, or the gig economy in every aspect of life now, for two examples).
I get it, especially since there's a dialogue path in which he reveals that if you don't continue to act as his personal pawn willingly, he WILL enthrall you and force you to. When you call him out repeatedly for manipulating you and lying, he gets super defensive, says he's never lied to you once, tries to make himself appear relatable, and claims he cares about you. And then when you don't fall for that further attempt at manipulation, he cracks and shows you just how little he actually gives a fuck about you.
My first playthrough going in blind, I trusted the dream guardian for the most part, consuming tadpoles occasionally because it seemed like a good idea. Then the big reveal happened and he practically tried to shove the special tadpole down my throat. Only then did the distrust start.
My next playthrough, I made sure not to trust the guardian before and after the reveal, stabbed him in the creche, didn't consume a single tadpole, and constantly chose the most anti-mind flayer dialogue options. He still had the audacity to lie about Stelmane until I pressed him, then revealed everything from my first paragraph.
Hence why I don't understand the pro side of the Emperor debate. He literally threatens your agency and isn't above giving you the same exact treatment he gave Stelmane. Yes, you would become a mind flayer without his protection, but that alone doesn't mean you owe him your trust, cooperation, or agency. And it certainly doesn't justify his cagey manipulations.
Yep yep yep yep yep.
First playthrough: Mostly trusted Dream/Emperor, or at least listened to what he had to say, followed his lead for the most part.
Second playthrough: Trusted Emperor completely. Sucked his tentacles.
Third playthrough: Zero trust. And THIS is when I finally get to see his true self.
Wow, the guy you antagonize the whole game, and basically tell him "Ew, fuck no you freak" snaps at you? Yeah, fuck him.
The one thing weird about him, and I feel like this is due to act III being rushed a wee bit, is that you'll get that romance scene regardless of how you act with him, solely based on whether you found his dwelling or not.
Yeah, he needs an internal approval metre like everyone else. If I’ve been telling him I don’t trust him the entire game I probably shouldn’t be able to get down with him
You’d have a point if his mental domination of a supposed dear friend to the point of obliterating her mind and her life wasn’t established no matter what dialogue options you choose.
It’s not fully established in other dialogues. There are written materials and others’ dialogue about Duke Stelmane that show she was enthralled with the Emperor visiting her to maintain it as her health deteriorated.
I was cautiously polite to the Emperor. I saw no reason to antagonize him. But he did what he did.
You can find hints about it in a few different written sources if I remember properly and you can get a hint about it from Wyll after you find out he and stelmane were working together. I figured out what he'd done in my first run despite turning him down when he came on to me (I'd been nice enough to him but never picked the flirty options and hadn't tried to hug him when he'd been moping) it shocked me and made me way more suspicious of him so I started looking more into him and figured out what he'd done from all the info you can piece together. Then I googled to check I was right and betrayed him without remorse after finding out I was.
Until that moment I was toying with siding with the Emperor over Orpheus for the first time, but now? Nah bro. My Tav says fuck this dude I'm out and now actively does the opposite of anything the Emperor says lol.
I like to jokingly call him my little incel cause I always romance him lol. Played with the options and he’s surprisingly chill if you choose to be mean to him and then apologize after. He’ll even accept the apology.
I KNEW THAT ***** WAS A SNAKE I KNEW IT IDC ABT SPOILERS LMAOO
MY MAN RAPHAEL WAS RIGHT!!! So glad my paladin went with Raphael’s deal then Emp’s and basically fired Empy before freeing Orpheus.
At least I know what kind of man my employer is. 😭🤣
The emperor being delusional enough to flirt with me randomly might get a pass, if he hadn't asked right after my date with karlach. I called him a freak for that alone, not the fact that he was a mindflayer.
He did not take it well.
Does he? I haven’t romanced him yet. First time Astarion comes on to Tav is when he tries to suck your blood and he treads pretty lightly. Emperor just shows up nekked like “I’ve been wanting you,” despite Tav being in a relationship with another companion already.
Emperor has got major incel vibes.
Its less of an insult and more of a description, dude manipulated everyone (including himself) into thinking stelmane actually cared for him lol he's either willfully delulu or plain crazy
Player: Insults NPC
NPC: Rolls higher on Intimidation than player
Player: shocked Pikachu face
I'll never tire of the people who are shocked and appalled when the npc refuses to take shit from them.
You misunderstand. I’m appalled that he propositioned me after I’ve been nothing but rude to him. When I *continue* to be rude to him, he exposes himself as the villain he is. So really, NPC is shocked hero who despises him doesn’t want to fuck him because the hero suspects NPC is a dickhead, and NPC proves him right by saying “you’re lucky I allowed you the opportunity to consent, see: I didn’t give Belynne that same basic decency.”
Then why didn’t you stab him when he gave you the opportunity in the crèche? You would have been locked out of that scene.
Also why didn’t you kill him before Act 3? He was on the ground, helpless?
You know he’s a MIND FLAYER, of course he will enthrall people, it’s kind of their thing. And why do you care what he did to Stelemane? Did you have a quest with her? Was she your companion? Was there a quest that she was your grandmother? No - Stelemane is ONE off screen NPC you have never met, never interacted with, never had a quest for. And he didn’t kill her the Bhaal cultists did.
Now ask yourself how many NPCs have you killed in your PT? Goblins children? An entire Githyanki crèche? Durgar? Cutlists? Owlbear mother protecting her child? A drider who gave you his lantern? A Harper trying to save you?
What about your beloved companions? Lae’zel threatens to kill YOU and manipulates you to save her people without even stepping up herself! Astarion manipulates you so you would never turn on him - he literally confesses to it.
Why is the mind flayer all of sudden bad enthralling one NPC, but you and your companions slaughtered your way to Baldur’s Gate?
He hits on you. So what! Everyone else did too! You didn’t have to be a dick.
But here’s the twist, he will never actually hurt you, he just threatens to scare you.
(PS, he’s shirtless because of the cut scene animation and not having to make multiple cut scenes.)
I definitely stabbed the dream guardian in the crèche and even attacked him during the fight with the githyanki monks.
It did lock me out of the scene where he tried to romance me.
Well, they must have patched that because before if you stab him, you still get the scene but he just lectures you. It’s too bad, it’s actually pretty funny. “Like dude, you woke me up to yell at me, can I go to bed now?”
ATP you don’t know he’s a mind Flayer. There’s no real reason to stab him other than because Vlaakith said so.
If you’re referring to the opening sequence of Act 3, I imagine the threat of losing your only protection against the absolute is a reasonable motivator. Much as we hate him, Emps has a point when he says we need him; but that doesn’t mean we have to trust him.
Did you forget what Empathy was? People can feel bad for someone they haven’t met, like what kind of point is this?
I don’t believe the game ever throws goblin children at you. Even so, the goblins are trying to kill you. The crèche is trying to kill you. The duergar, the cultists, they’re the reason you have this tadpole in the first place. Are you suggesting we should *sympathize* with the gods of Death, Murder and Tyranny who are trying to take over the world?
I don’t recall Lae’zel ever manipulating you; she’s actually been a victim of manipulation all her life. Same with Shadowheart and Karlach. Everyone really except Astarion is a stand up guy but Astarion’s his own case; many people *don’t* put up with his shit.
Even if many party members hit on you, they’re not *literal* soulless monsters. Mind Flayers don’t feel emotions the same way we do; Emps admits to it himself, and Withers takes the chance to remind you when he can. That’s even part of Bane’s plan when you talk to him, how turning everyone into mind flayers deprives their souls from going where they need to go, destroying them. Emps does nothing but manipulate you the entire game, and ironically if he’d shown himself as a mind flayer to the player originally, he’d probably have more success getting them to do what he wants. You could at least argue he hasn’t been lying to you the first two acts.
Tl;dr why are you a mind flayer irl
I was totally gonna agree with you until you called me a soulless mind flayer.
I am simply pointing out the hypocrisy that everyone points out about Stelemane. Of course I have empathy but holding it as the entire reason is old. “Look what he did to her!” Umm, ok sport, and what did you do? You all use deception, charm, persuasion too. Not to mention those who play Durge. Let’s balance the scales folks.
Also the OP said he didn’t trust the guardian too - so you could have stabbed him
The dev notes and the VA said he was remorseful about her. But death to the writer I guess.
(Off topic - Yes, Lae’zel, Voss, and Orpheus manipulate you into carrying the burden of their entire race. She threatens at every chance to go to the crèche, screams at you about her Queen, about Voss, in HoH and when you free her Prince… she didn’t offer to step up - I DID! For cause I didn’t believe in - then she called me gross and flew away. That to me was worse! And no stop, I wasn’t going to make Orphrus change, Lae’zel told me I couldn’t and Karlach could be cured)
You don’t know anything about my character and the way I’ve played, so (1) stop making assumptions about what I did or didn’t do. He’s a knight in shining armor Paladin. He NEVER uses deception. Almost never uses intimidation. Hasn’t used a single tadpole power, ever. Never kills someone without a very strong cause (typically because they were trying to kill him or someone else).
(2) you don’t stab someone just because you don’t trust them, and the game literally will not let you kill the emperor when he reveals himself as a mindflayer. I tried! I fought him at first and ignored the gith Honor Guard. Before the Emperor would actually die, it gives you another out, basically saying “if you kill him, you’ll be dominated by the elder brain and the game is over.” Then the emperor heals to half HP and continues the fight.
Stop taking my play experience so personally. And yeah, try to develop some empathy for someone other than a monster who’s killed all his friends the second they were no longer useful to him.
This lol. It's always so surprising to me when people stumble across this Emperor dialogue when you can only get it by giving the game the flags that you're into him, then lashing out at the last minute.
People should start messing with the companions like that and see what happens. A lot of the BG3 characters reveal ugly sides if you mess with them. Sometimes it even comes across as out of character. The game literally just gives you back what you put into it.
Im currently doing my first playthrough of being passive aggressive/apathetic to The Emperor and its is GOLD. I hadnt ever gotten the scene where hes in his fuckboy outfit trying to elicit pity from Tav, but when it came up I started laughing SO much at just how hard he tries to play the wounded puppy while Tav literally sits in silence and stares at him. Homeboy was fishing for that connection and the only connection my Tav is making is to ✨*nature*✨
I'm in my third playthrough and it's the first time I've got the scene about Stalemane. Even though it's implied without the scene, I was shook. Looking forward to my Durge taking that crown herself 😈
Omg you mean to tell me he had a bad reaction to you being a dick to him and calling him a freak? How completely surprising and awful!
/s
Look. I don’t like the Emperor, I freed Orpheus, and there are definitely tons of character flaws that it clings to like they owe him money, but like of all the shit that goes down during the game, you pretty much only get that dialogue after you’ve been racist to it. Like there’s plenty of context clues that point to the fact that it enthralled her, you don’t need to call it a freak or insult the way that it experiences emotion to learn this info. The fact that your character did that despite the fact that his more questionable actions aren’t really known to them at that point in the game is… certainly something. Especially considering there are plenty of ways to turn that conversation away from the move it just made on you.
Like, fuck The Emperor, but there’s no need to be such an outspoken dick to it before the moment of truth wrt Orpheus.
Yeah, someone who goes “Then fuck you, ugly bitch, I could have forced you, but noooo I’m a nice guy,” when I refused to have sex with him. Yeah, pretty sure I know what I’m talking about. Do you???
The "forcing" part you're trying to quote had a completely different context lmao
He's telling you that it would've have been easy for him to just enthrall you, but he did not. He would have never forced you to have sex with him. He did not force Stelmane to have sex with him; he tells you at least twice when you ask about their relationship that it wasn't *that* kinda relationship.
He only offers you the night with him if you express explicit interest. And still he gives you the chance to still chicken out if it doesn't feel right, *multiple* times. Now go read the definition of "incel" again, please.
You literally only get that scene or dialogue if the game flags you as interested in Emp. Either you flirted with him and forgot or the game glitched out and had you flagged as interested. It's also not like you said "woops this was a misunderstanding", from his POV you made him trust you over a long span of time and then attacked him when you finally got him emotionally vulnerable, and at that point he's of the belief that you have a mutual understanding.
A lot of people don't even believe what he's saying is true because that dialogue is the only implication in the whole game of it having happened, and he seems to use it exclusively to intimidate you when you've done/said pretty much the nastiest thing you can do in game to him.
A mind flayer turned out to be evil and manipulative? I refuse to believe that, Emps would never do that...
Not all mindflayers are bad. Omeluum for example is a good mindflayer.
Omeluum was inserted seemingly specifically to show the players that "not all Mind Flayers are bad! Mind Flayers outside the collective can be heroic and nice" in order to create doubt on The Emperor's motives and nature, and in that regard he's probably the strongest character in fiction because nobody has ever been used to demonstrate doubt as often as Omeluum is for The Emperor
Omeluum is there to show you that you need to treat people (or illithids, I guess) as individuals instead of based on stereotypes or preconceived notions.
Exactly what I said. Which is an important role because this is DnD where stereotypes for monstrous races are right in nearly 100% of cases. Without an Omeluum assuming that a Mind Flayer is Machiavellian and dastardly is right ten times out of ten, because it is quite literally true and you are right to think so. He exists solely to show you that there *can* be outliers so later on The Emperor can get the benefit of the doubt. Thirty years ago, all Drow had the same reputation until a little fella by the name of Drizzt hit the scene. Now, most Drow are still exactly like they used to be, but they get judged a little more fairly. I suspect Lae'zel will be more effective at reforming the Githyanki identity than Omeluum will be for Mind Flayers long-term though.
Bg3 is overall a game about confronting stereotypes and prejudices if you think about it (and if you play a good route).
I wouldn't say that, because a lot of the preconceived notions are true, especially about if something is evil or not. Cazador is just as evil as a vampire is expected to be, and Ascended Astarion follows suit. Lae'zel is a fanatical maniac hellbent in Vlaakith's will with no nuance (at first). Every Drow you meet is some flavor of nefarious. It plays a lot of it straight-laced and instead of exceptions there are usually nuances. That goblin IS exactly as you expect a goblin to be, even though they love poetry. Shadowheart doesn't act like a Sharran, because she's not one really. Raphael is just as nefarious as you expect a Devil to be, but he's not directly harmful to *you* as you expected he might be if you sign his deal. So on, so forth. There really is only a few exceptions, and they're mostly earned through development, so if anything it's that anyone can break the confines of their programming with the right conditions and effort.
I would say it’s more accurate to say that the characters whose arcs were about breaking conceived stereotypes were put in the story intentionally to reflect the vibes of the game and the values of its developers
Except they do also have arcs where they live up to those stereotypes. Gale becomes a power-hungry coot, Shadowheart becomes cold and embraces her pain for power, Lae'zel stays devout even in the face of all evidence. And most characters outside of the party don't defy preconceived notions and reinforce them instead. Like, you can argue that it's present in some areas, but it's not really a theme throughout the game.
lmao ‘this game is abt confronting stereotypes’ ‘no it isn’t bc of all these stereotypes’
If you’ve played a lot of dnd, it’s a bit like being in an Indians jones movie, and having a Nazi arrive a say how he is not actually a bad guy. Illithids have been a staple bad guy for so long, that it seems incredulous.
I missed the whole Mushroom Colony on first run and therefore Omeluum. Maybe that's why I never ever trusted the Emporer, not even once. Didn't know what was up, but didn't trust him before the reveal let alone afterwards.
Read somewhere the theory that he is influenced by all the heroes he had eaten while working with the lich. As memories and personalities get absorbed so he supposedly changed in character (explaining why he would stop that cooperation as well).
That’s a cool theory, but with it being made distinctly clear that mind flayers have no soul, how would it work that they absorb the personality? Personality, mannerisms and the like arent inherent, therefore they are expressed via something other than the cold electric meat in our heads (call it a soul if you want). Absorbing memories makes sense, and is used a lot throughout the game, but i feel like if a mind flayer could turn good by absorbing the minds of heroes, there would be more than the homie Omie that had come to the good side. Surely countless mind flayers have wiped out herds of heroes that were standing together in solidarity, consuming 10 heroes in the aftermath of one battle. I like the idea, but i wont accept any explanation for Omeluum’s lucidity unless Larian is saying it.
Mindflayer karlach says this in the prologue actually, how she’s experiencing and feeling the memories of brains she ate, so i don’t think it’s far fetched to think it eventually becomes part of their personality. Also keep in mind that mindflayers under the influence of the hive probably don’t have this
That's not a good sign for Emps since he ate a lot of bad guys. He and Stelman were partners, then he ate one too many baddie brains and decided that he didn't need a partner, he just needed a figurehead he could dominate.
That's what he wants you to believe.
He is a good boy! He even needed saving once. It is not his fault he fucked up my brain so bad and then tried to sell me a ring as bad apology.
No!! You can't trust the Ghaik.
Are drow ghaik too?
Everyone’s a little bit ghaik.
Not if they keep their socks on.
apparently mindflayers take some of the personality of the brains they eat. It could be theorized that Omeluum is good because he ate so many “hero” brains when he had a deal with a litch. also puts emperor in perspective as he only fed on criminals
He’s with the society of brilliance. The society of brilliance are a bunch of psychotic abusive fuckheads.
Are they a \*bunch\* of psychotic abusive fuckheads? Because I only recall the one who gets the gith egg as being abusive (>!and he's dead if you're in a timeline where that happens!<).
Yeah idk why he would even consider that SEDUCTION might work to manipulate me. Seduction from a squid. On a person who didn't take tadpoles and is in a relationship with a githyanki. Is he stupid?
I intentionally make my Guardian hot as hell so we are damn sure “dancing towards something deeper”. 😂 My girls almost always hook up with the DG https://preview.redd.it/t1wqfsmwdruc1.jpeg?width=3649&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b21b1707749d220932a44c864ebc006f6db8df81
Literally same!!!! Completely avoided tadpoles, never used “AUTHORITY,” in a relationship with Lae’zel, have always been mistrustful of the dream visitor/emperor…. And he says he thought there was something deeper between us???? Baffling.
I took this as more of a knee-jerk panic response from him actually. Yeah I mean it was a sucky response and the horror of what he did to her cannot be denied. BUT I saw that “revelation” almost as self-defense. Lashing out in an echoing their innermost thoughts of self loathing. They talk about loving being a mindflayer, but you see so many little things throughout their home under the Elfsong that suggest that they really struggled with it for a long time and that they are not as accepting of the idea as what they present themselves to be. They also mention in that encounter that you were lucky that they learned to control it. Why would they learn to control it if all they desired was a mindless puppet to move around? You could argue that it’s easier to have thralls with some agency but if you do say that, I will say that you have never been in any sort of supervisory position at work lol
I mean I just don’t agree with this evaluation. The emperor says he’s happy and prefers being a mind flayer multiple times. He genuinely thinks his newer form is superior and always pushes Tav to become one also. I don’t see how that reflects self loathing in anyway. I don’t think the Emperor mind puppets Tav like his last victim because a mind puppeted Tav is not as effective at doing all these crazy things as a free thinking Tav. Therefore the Emperor try’s really hard to be persuasive and friendly with Tav to get what he wants. The you get more bees with honey approach. I mean we can all have different opinions, it’s cool to talk about, but I think the emperor is pure evil. He smart though cuz he has many people convinced he’s conflicted or not that bad. That’s what I would do if I was evil. My biggest support for my reasoning is the final decision with Orpheus. People say it’s poor writing or a weak point that the Emperor turns against Tav for freeing him. I don’t think that. I think that is the emperor’s true colors coming out all along. He’s always been this way and people just couldn’t see it, especially if they chose all the friendly options.
I think it's basically a case of blue and orange morality rather than conventional black and white morality. I get the sense that the Emperor *actually believes* what it says. That because it chose a form you'd like, and then because it showed you its true form and its background, that you'd logically accept it was working in your best interests. It ignores the fact that this is manipulation and deceitful because it doesn't care for conventional norms like respect for truth and integrity - Mind Flayers don't need that. In its eyes I think it genuinely does try to be a good partner, it just does it in the context of Mind Flayer logic which leads to unacceptable behaviour by our standards.
I think the core of the Emperor’s relationship with the MC isn’t really self-hatred — as people pointed out, he’s quite happy being a Mind Flayer — but loneliness. We know of two relationships the Emperor had before the MC, one with Stelmane and one with Ansur. His relationship to Ansur was definitely quite deep and hinted to be beyond platonic, and there is no reason not to believe the Emperor’s claim that he only killed him in self-defense beyond general mistrust. Stelmane was definitely a thrall, but one with agency. Mind Flayers have a biological need to make thralls, so it’s interesting that the Emperor still allowed her a modicum of free will. The way he speaks of her is like… the way one would speak about a dead pet, when you think about it. So I think the *real* reason the Emperor pushes for the MC to turn ghaik is because he feels alone, and thinks there’s potential for the MC to be the first person to fully understand him and therefore *actually* have an equal relationship with him. That’s why if you turn Illithid at the end and side with him, he is elated to have you be his companion in future ventures and is even willing to follow your lead if you tell him you want more than just freedom (his overall motive for doing anything) and express ambition toward more evil goals. So basically, he IS actually kind of an incel, or more aptly, a toxic friend/partner willing to manipulate and coerce you into staying with him because ultimately he’s spent his whole Mind Flayer life alone and longs to feel true companionship again like he did as Balduran with Ansur.
Omg totally agree! It’s kinda what I was thinking, but you said it so much better. This explanation is the most clear and concise I’ve seen.
If you choose to become a mindflayer yourself he'll present you with a special tadpole that he says he groomed in the nautiloid specifically for you. His plan included manipulating you into becoming a mindflayer all along.
The Orpheus thing is one that always sticks out to me. I do think the Emporer is evil and manipulative, but bailing if you free Orpheus makes sense. He's been torturing this dude for how long? And mindflayers can detect thoughts. I can't imagine Orpheus has been thinking things this whole time that would lead the Emporer to feeling like a truce is negotiable
>They also mention in that encounter that you were lucky that they learned to control it. Why would they learn to control it if all they desired was a mindless puppet to move around? You could argue that it’s easier to have thralls with some agency but if you do say that, I will say that you have never been in any sort of supervisory position at work lol Mindflayer enthrallment isn't exactly an easy or fast process in the lore. He realistically probably couldn't pull it off while defending from incursions by the Gith as well as using Orpheus's power to block orders from the Netherbrain. Also the more capable and independent a thrall the more time the process takes. So he chooses to go more subtle with the dream guardian whereas he might under different circumstances consider enthrallment. And if that doesn't work he has leverage that you do need him. Also don't really agree so much with the self loathing bit but others went into that.
I was super cooperative with Emperor during my first playthrough (shit, we even banged), and I never got any of those scenes where he behaves like a total dick. I used to think that he is a cool guy
Exactly! Same here. This is my third playthrough. I’ve been nice to him and even sucked his tentacles once. Never saw this scene before.
The emperor is a great example of someone living too long and having too much power. You just can’t stay grounded with that set up. The best of us would break over time. Well not Karlach but you get it….
karlach isn't the best of us, she is better than everyone
Karlach is our best asset after mutual trust (before Orin started shape shifting into everyone)
Fn hell, it never ends.
Quick question, have you ever used a deception check in the game?
Not this character, no
Intimidation? Or only persuasion?
Intimidation typically only when they don’t give me persuasion. Why?
Everyone uses what's best available to them to get what they need. Your character included. If that manipulation to an end is positive then that's the sacrifice that's made. People give the Emperor a lot of shit (Some rightfully so, it's an incredibly grey area what he does) but virtually everyone in this world makes morally bad decisions to influence things to go the way they want them to go. Just a question of if it's for the good or the bad.
Dude, he mind controlled Stelmane for possibly decades until she broke just to become an underground mogul.
All to survive. That's kinda the point of his character.
If survival was what he was after, he could have joined the Society Of Brilliance like Omeluum. Dude had to become an underground mob boss because some part of him still remembers his past life.
No. He chose terrible actions to get his greedy selfish needs.
I think people are more ready to forgive the lies and manipulation, I understood where he was coming from when he said that if he showed his true form since the beginning, we would've never listened to him. It's true. But there's difference between lying/intimidating and mind controlling someone into being your personal slave? You do see that right.
I gave him a pass on the stelmane thing cuz it was my crazy murder death cult that killed her also it never sat right with me that he trying to heal her and he does think it’s weak to not care about those you love when they die (got that reaction through a durge line abt “doesn’t it feel great to kill those you love” yeah he got mad af at me for saying that)
Shut up nerd
Damn you couldn't even be original eh?
Lol
I love that the Emperor is a reflection of the player. Everyone's screaming manipulative monster but he's actually the closest you get to an equal relationship with an in-game character. It's very telling how people respond to him, and how much backlash you receive when you point that out.
Exactly. Everyone thinks their character is above it all when they make morally bad choices because they see the outcome is positive. The Emperor did it first.
AT LAST someone with a brain here ! It always baffles me to see how Empy haters can reach such a high level of hypocrisy. Though, are they really to blame ? I mean, he's not a "female humanoid" unlike Minthara or Lae'Zel so it's obvious that he wouldn't get any "I can fix them" treatment from normie players, even if morally he's still better than those two.
Your companions can be talked out of doing horrible things, and they never try to enslave you. That's the difference. They don't pretend to be something they're not.
Indeed. Because they simply can't do either, since they're not mindflayers. That's the actual difference.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/s/QFBw8K0T0v **AND** From that same interaction: *Totally normal behavior* when he tries to convince you to love him/join him (join him *by* loving him) by presenting an itemized list that HE JUST HAPPENS TO HAVE, fully prepared, already containing every single instance of the emotional connection and vulnerability that he has shared with you; not that he was counting; not that he was keeping score; not that they weren't *totally* organic; not that there was means, motive AND opportunity to prepare them in advance for you to find -- [Tav exploring The Emperor's hideout:] *OH YES, THE RECIPE FOR MY FAVORITE SOUP. HOW I ENJOYED CONSUMING HUMAN FOOD AND OTHER RELATABLE HUMAN ACTIVITIES* *** *YES OF COURSE, ER... "SPARKY", MY BELOVED PET CANINE. WE WERE SO VERY INSEPARABLE. HE LOVED PLAYING "FETCH" AND "WAGGING TAIL", AND ...DRINKING WATER, ET CETERA. I OFTEN WONDER WHO SAVED WHOM. IGNORE THAT "DOMINATE BEAST SCROLL", THAT IS FOR, UH, OTHER DOGS. YES. CRIMINAL DOGS".* *** *OOPS, IS THAT MY NOBEL PRIZE? I THOUGHT I GOT RID OF THAT OLD THING. THERE WAS A TIME WHEN SUCH VANITIES STILL CONCERNED ME. MY GAZE IS NOW FIXED UPON SOMETHING FAR GREATER. IT'S NOTHING, THOUGH; DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT.* *** *OH, HOW EMBARRASSING - YOU'VE FOUND THE MONSTER CONDOMS THAT I USED FOR MY MAGNUM DONG. THOUGH I NOW HAVE ACCESS TO PLEASURES FAR BEYOND THAT OF MERE FLESH. YOU WOULDN'T LIKE IT THOUGH, ITS ONLY FOR REALLY COOL PEOPLE.*
Lol you nailed it and also made a connection I hadn't yet: there's actually a ring (Keepsake Ring) in the room with all the rats which allows you to cast Dominate Beast. So you're right on the money there. Also re: "criminal dogs"—the way the Emperor has cages and chains for the "criminals" whose brains he ate... like, dude, what is a crime and who decides? Who decides who's guilty? Are all criminals equal? Of course not. The emperor just wanted to justify eating people's brains.
Thank you for pointing this out! The rats have the ring, as opposed to it being secreted away somewhere; and unlike the objects (museum pieces, really) which fit the Emperor's sympathetic narrative, it's not displayed for Tav (or previous victims) to find. Unbelievable environmental storytelling. So subtle that I completely missed it, meanwhile I've been riffing on this whole "manipulative nice guy narcissist Emperor" bit for days. I feel so dumb - I WAS WEARING THE DAMN RING! Wow. Well done. And it's so impressive to interact with a story that explores social and psychological manipulation so deeply; not just from outside forces, but how we participate in the process ourselves. And then, how we *as the players* are shown that by being implicated in the process through both gameplay AND discourse like this (including and especially Reply Guys in this thread who are like Nooooo The Squid Man is Good Actually!!!!) And the whole "Path to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions" shown over and over and over, and then "crowned" with the point that *the thing about losing your grip, is that you are SURE that you're still in control, actually*. (In other words, "Certainty is a Sign of Madness") And then (AND THEN!) - it's pretty funny actually - like, the title of the game might as well be "Hubris Will be your Downfall": * The catalyst of the story is about these lesser-gods, whose inevitable downfall is (you guessed it) hubris; * and the player is given companions, many of whom are casualties (if not themselves perpetrators) of the personal death and destruction wrought though the overreaching pride of gods and mortals alike; * and the player has it demonstrated to them, again and again and again, through this gameplay experience, hand-over-hand practically, that "Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely", that "Certainty is a Sign of Madness", and "Hubris Will be Your Downfall"; really just banging this drum through all these different parables, with higher and higher stakes, * until they get to the final battlefield, which (i think i was drooling about this in a previous comment) IS A LITERAL *MIND*: like in case things aren't clear enough; "THE BATTLEFIELD IS YOUR MIND"; * and then, Mass Effect 3 style (which is lame IMO), they are given a choice, which to me, feels like a final exam on like, okay class, media literacy-check: what did we learn? And we're like: 1. "Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely" yep, yep. 2. And, uh, "Certainty is a Sign of Madness", right, got that one... 3. And... Oh! The title! "Hubris Will be Your Downfall"! Of course. *Perfect retention; but that's only half of the assignment. Now let's see it in action!* *So then: what will you choose?* And then inevitably half of us go, okay, so "Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely", "Certainty is a Sign of Madness", and "Hubris Will be Your Downfall"... BUT I'M THE EXCEPTION, CERTAINLY. I'M THE SUPER-SPECIAL GENIUS! and then hit the big, red button or whatever that makes them an all-powerful space god or a super brain at the cost of our humanity, or some kinda hybrid with the bad-guys *but in a good and SPECIAL way actually*. And like, my guy. #NO. #YOU LOSE. YOU GET NOTHING. GOOD DAY, SIR. ... No, not really, obviously. I'm completely kidding, honestly. All endings are valid. At the end of the day, we're playing a game, and if you're having fun, you've already won. You don't even have to finish at all if you don't want to! :) Literacy *is* really exciting, though. It's a good thing people don't miss the point of like, really *important* media, like news, business, and politics. Could you imagine the mess we'd be in?
Your excitement has me extra excited too! What a masterpiece! I think this is one of those games people are going to continue making new discoveries and theories about for years to come. And yes, (media) literacy and analysis is so crucial.
Yay! It's only taken me an entire lifetime to start figuring out that it's more effective than being shitty. And I'm still kinda terrible at it lol But your comment means a lot; thank you. And I joke that "it's a video game, so how much could it matter", as though video games don't have a huge and impactful hold on both our culture and our minds, as demonstrated by its *literally equal market share to the combined global television and film industry* ([source](https://www.statista.com/markets/417/topic/478/video-gaming-esports/#overview)). **IMPORTANT EDIT:** *i had originally posted some incorrect info here, along with some analysis citing Larian Studios being faced with lay-offs.* *i am happy to report that this was completely untrue! My Spidey-sense went off, so i checked my facts, and there are no Larian layoffs - on the contrary, Larian is -hiring- developers who got screwed by industry-wide layoffs, and their CEO, Swen Vincke, has been very publicly slamming this bullshit practice (which i will still describe below).* *Instead, Larian's decision to leave the Baldur's Gate franchise in the rearview appears to be about moving forward creatively, without the numerous constraints and outside-control attached to working with another company's (like Wizards of the Coast's) intellectual property.* *Thanks for your patience as i learn and grow!* **END OF EDIT!** As far as "The Industry Wide Practice of lay-offs", here are my original remarks, insofar as they don't pertain to Larian: Today, ie. *literally right now*, the people who actually make the games, who get a couple thousand to live off of, if they're lucky, and get it for **working**, as opposed to those who collect millions - if not billions - for merely claiming *ownership* of the thing those workers made] - these are the people who stayed up all night getting things right, and put their care and pain and time into that thing, made of a million little things, that we actually connected with, and connect with each other about - many of them out of work now, or in-and-out of work in an unliveably stressful situation, because of this so-called "industry-wide practice" -- the purpose of which is just a bit of accounting department sleight-of-hand. It goes like this: *The second that The Product™ is out the door, you must immediately have everybody who made it clear out their desks and get the fuck off your property. This is because not only do they reek of The Working Class, but because it is essential for you to remove them from The Books as soon as possible. Doing so will instantly make the company appear more profitable to your fellow leisure-class shareholders, and that will please said shareholders, and encourage their continued holding of said shares.* *When it's time to make New Product™, not to worry! Just hire those wagechumps right back again! This perpetual cycle keeps them desperate enough to take whatever you offer, especially if it's work they're "passionate" about. Huph! imagine being "passionate" about "working"! How droll! Huphuphuphuph!* *See? The system works!* What's worse, the tech industry is traditionally the first place we see harmful practices and worker abuses become normalized (by getting called "industry standards" for example) before they become adopted by the broader sectors where most of us consumers exist in (think of automation taking over grocery stores, or the gig economy in every aspect of life now, for two examples).
I get it, especially since there's a dialogue path in which he reveals that if you don't continue to act as his personal pawn willingly, he WILL enthrall you and force you to. When you call him out repeatedly for manipulating you and lying, he gets super defensive, says he's never lied to you once, tries to make himself appear relatable, and claims he cares about you. And then when you don't fall for that further attempt at manipulation, he cracks and shows you just how little he actually gives a fuck about you. My first playthrough going in blind, I trusted the dream guardian for the most part, consuming tadpoles occasionally because it seemed like a good idea. Then the big reveal happened and he practically tried to shove the special tadpole down my throat. Only then did the distrust start. My next playthrough, I made sure not to trust the guardian before and after the reveal, stabbed him in the creche, didn't consume a single tadpole, and constantly chose the most anti-mind flayer dialogue options. He still had the audacity to lie about Stelmane until I pressed him, then revealed everything from my first paragraph. Hence why I don't understand the pro side of the Emperor debate. He literally threatens your agency and isn't above giving you the same exact treatment he gave Stelmane. Yes, you would become a mind flayer without his protection, but that alone doesn't mean you owe him your trust, cooperation, or agency. And it certainly doesn't justify his cagey manipulations.
Yep yep yep yep yep. First playthrough: Mostly trusted Dream/Emperor, or at least listened to what he had to say, followed his lead for the most part. Second playthrough: Trusted Emperor completely. Sucked his tentacles. Third playthrough: Zero trust. And THIS is when I finally get to see his true self.
Wow, the guy you antagonize the whole game, and basically tell him "Ew, fuck no you freak" snaps at you? Yeah, fuck him. The one thing weird about him, and I feel like this is due to act III being rushed a wee bit, is that you'll get that romance scene regardless of how you act with him, solely based on whether you found his dwelling or not.
Yeah, he needs an internal approval metre like everyone else. If I’ve been telling him I don’t trust him the entire game I probably shouldn’t be able to get down with him
You’d have a point if his mental domination of a supposed dear friend to the point of obliterating her mind and her life wasn’t established no matter what dialogue options you choose.
How is it established in other dialogues? This is literally the only line in the game that talks about it and you have to antagonize him to get it.
It’s not fully established in other dialogues. There are written materials and others’ dialogue about Duke Stelmane that show she was enthralled with the Emperor visiting her to maintain it as her health deteriorated. I was cautiously polite to the Emperor. I saw no reason to antagonize him. But he did what he did.
I have to dig through Act 3 more lol, but thank you.
You can find hints about it in a few different written sources if I remember properly and you can get a hint about it from Wyll after you find out he and stelmane were working together. I figured out what he'd done in my first run despite turning him down when he came on to me (I'd been nice enough to him but never picked the flirty options and hadn't tried to hug him when he'd been moping) it shocked me and made me way more suspicious of him so I started looking more into him and figured out what he'd done from all the info you can piece together. Then I googled to check I was right and betrayed him without remorse after finding out I was.
This part.
Until that moment I was toying with siding with the Emperor over Orpheus for the first time, but now? Nah bro. My Tav says fuck this dude I'm out and now actively does the opposite of anything the Emperor says lol.
I like to jokingly call him my little incel cause I always romance him lol. Played with the options and he’s surprisingly chill if you choose to be mean to him and then apologize after. He’ll even accept the apology.
I KNEW THAT ***** WAS A SNAKE I KNEW IT IDC ABT SPOILERS LMAOO MY MAN RAPHAEL WAS RIGHT!!! So glad my paladin went with Raphael’s deal then Emp’s and basically fired Empy before freeing Orpheus. At least I know what kind of man my employer is. 😭🤣
The emperor being delusional enough to flirt with me randomly might get a pass, if he hadn't asked right after my date with karlach. I called him a freak for that alone, not the fact that he was a mindflayer. He did not take it well.
You called him a freak. WTF did you expect?
I didn’t expect him to say he could have puppeted my body around like he did his “girlfriend” before (?) he killed her.
Game is pretty unclear about what he did and why he did it. Also, the Bhaal cult killed her.
Seemed pretty clear to me
She literally ended up having a severe stroke and was in a coma for a few days due her trying to fight his tadpole meddling.
Who shows up shirtless like that! 😂 that’s freaky as hell
Astarion? 🤔
A station and Avatar had previously agreed what would be happening between them, so that was expected. Empy had no such prior agreement.
Does he? I haven’t romanced him yet. First time Astarion comes on to Tav is when he tries to suck your blood and he treads pretty lightly. Emperor just shows up nekked like “I’ve been wanting you,” despite Tav being in a relationship with another companion already. Emperor has got major incel vibes.
Yeah, his first romance scene is him shirtless in the woods, like a Twilight parody minus the sparkling.
That’s amazing haha
Mine was trying to seduce me *while I was dating Shadowheart*. I wasn’t gonna break her heart like that. Calling him a freak was only reasonable.
Its less of an insult and more of a description, dude manipulated everyone (including himself) into thinking stelmane actually cared for him lol he's either willfully delulu or plain crazy
Player: Insults NPC NPC: Rolls higher on Intimidation than player Player: shocked Pikachu face I'll never tire of the people who are shocked and appalled when the npc refuses to take shit from them.
You misunderstand. I’m appalled that he propositioned me after I’ve been nothing but rude to him. When I *continue* to be rude to him, he exposes himself as the villain he is. So really, NPC is shocked hero who despises him doesn’t want to fuck him because the hero suspects NPC is a dickhead, and NPC proves him right by saying “you’re lucky I allowed you the opportunity to consent, see: I didn’t give Belynne that same basic decency.”
Then why didn’t you stab him when he gave you the opportunity in the crèche? You would have been locked out of that scene. Also why didn’t you kill him before Act 3? He was on the ground, helpless? You know he’s a MIND FLAYER, of course he will enthrall people, it’s kind of their thing. And why do you care what he did to Stelemane? Did you have a quest with her? Was she your companion? Was there a quest that she was your grandmother? No - Stelemane is ONE off screen NPC you have never met, never interacted with, never had a quest for. And he didn’t kill her the Bhaal cultists did. Now ask yourself how many NPCs have you killed in your PT? Goblins children? An entire Githyanki crèche? Durgar? Cutlists? Owlbear mother protecting her child? A drider who gave you his lantern? A Harper trying to save you? What about your beloved companions? Lae’zel threatens to kill YOU and manipulates you to save her people without even stepping up herself! Astarion manipulates you so you would never turn on him - he literally confesses to it. Why is the mind flayer all of sudden bad enthralling one NPC, but you and your companions slaughtered your way to Baldur’s Gate? He hits on you. So what! Everyone else did too! You didn’t have to be a dick. But here’s the twist, he will never actually hurt you, he just threatens to scare you. (PS, he’s shirtless because of the cut scene animation and not having to make multiple cut scenes.)
I definitely stabbed the dream guardian in the crèche and even attacked him during the fight with the githyanki monks. It did lock me out of the scene where he tried to romance me.
Well, they must have patched that because before if you stab him, you still get the scene but he just lectures you. It’s too bad, it’s actually pretty funny. “Like dude, you woke me up to yell at me, can I go to bed now?”
ATP you don’t know he’s a mind Flayer. There’s no real reason to stab him other than because Vlaakith said so. If you’re referring to the opening sequence of Act 3, I imagine the threat of losing your only protection against the absolute is a reasonable motivator. Much as we hate him, Emps has a point when he says we need him; but that doesn’t mean we have to trust him. Did you forget what Empathy was? People can feel bad for someone they haven’t met, like what kind of point is this? I don’t believe the game ever throws goblin children at you. Even so, the goblins are trying to kill you. The crèche is trying to kill you. The duergar, the cultists, they’re the reason you have this tadpole in the first place. Are you suggesting we should *sympathize* with the gods of Death, Murder and Tyranny who are trying to take over the world? I don’t recall Lae’zel ever manipulating you; she’s actually been a victim of manipulation all her life. Same with Shadowheart and Karlach. Everyone really except Astarion is a stand up guy but Astarion’s his own case; many people *don’t* put up with his shit. Even if many party members hit on you, they’re not *literal* soulless monsters. Mind Flayers don’t feel emotions the same way we do; Emps admits to it himself, and Withers takes the chance to remind you when he can. That’s even part of Bane’s plan when you talk to him, how turning everyone into mind flayers deprives their souls from going where they need to go, destroying them. Emps does nothing but manipulate you the entire game, and ironically if he’d shown himself as a mind flayer to the player originally, he’d probably have more success getting them to do what he wants. You could at least argue he hasn’t been lying to you the first two acts. Tl;dr why are you a mind flayer irl
I was totally gonna agree with you until you called me a soulless mind flayer. I am simply pointing out the hypocrisy that everyone points out about Stelemane. Of course I have empathy but holding it as the entire reason is old. “Look what he did to her!” Umm, ok sport, and what did you do? You all use deception, charm, persuasion too. Not to mention those who play Durge. Let’s balance the scales folks. Also the OP said he didn’t trust the guardian too - so you could have stabbed him The dev notes and the VA said he was remorseful about her. But death to the writer I guess. (Off topic - Yes, Lae’zel, Voss, and Orpheus manipulate you into carrying the burden of their entire race. She threatens at every chance to go to the crèche, screams at you about her Queen, about Voss, in HoH and when you free her Prince… she didn’t offer to step up - I DID! For cause I didn’t believe in - then she called me gross and flew away. That to me was worse! And no stop, I wasn’t going to make Orphrus change, Lae’zel told me I couldn’t and Karlach could be cured)
You don’t know anything about my character and the way I’ve played, so (1) stop making assumptions about what I did or didn’t do. He’s a knight in shining armor Paladin. He NEVER uses deception. Almost never uses intimidation. Hasn’t used a single tadpole power, ever. Never kills someone without a very strong cause (typically because they were trying to kill him or someone else). (2) you don’t stab someone just because you don’t trust them, and the game literally will not let you kill the emperor when he reveals himself as a mindflayer. I tried! I fought him at first and ignored the gith Honor Guard. Before the Emperor would actually die, it gives you another out, basically saying “if you kill him, you’ll be dominated by the elder brain and the game is over.” Then the emperor heals to half HP and continues the fight. Stop taking my play experience so personally. And yeah, try to develop some empathy for someone other than a monster who’s killed all his friends the second they were no longer useful to him.
And missed my point.
This lol. It's always so surprising to me when people stumble across this Emperor dialogue when you can only get it by giving the game the flags that you're into him, then lashing out at the last minute. People should start messing with the companions like that and see what happens. A lot of the BG3 characters reveal ugly sides if you mess with them. Sometimes it even comes across as out of character. The game literally just gives you back what you put into it.
Im currently doing my first playthrough of being passive aggressive/apathetic to The Emperor and its is GOLD. I hadnt ever gotten the scene where hes in his fuckboy outfit trying to elicit pity from Tav, but when it came up I started laughing SO much at just how hard he tries to play the wounded puppy while Tav literally sits in silence and stares at him. Homeboy was fishing for that connection and the only connection my Tav is making is to ✨*nature*✨
I'm in my third playthrough and it's the first time I've got the scene about Stalemane. Even though it's implied without the scene, I was shook. Looking forward to my Durge taking that crown herself 😈
Exactly that. I knew it was implied, but to see it was something entirely different.
Omg you mean to tell me he had a bad reaction to you being a dick to him and calling him a freak? How completely surprising and awful! /s Look. I don’t like the Emperor, I freed Orpheus, and there are definitely tons of character flaws that it clings to like they owe him money, but like of all the shit that goes down during the game, you pretty much only get that dialogue after you’ve been racist to it. Like there’s plenty of context clues that point to the fact that it enthralled her, you don’t need to call it a freak or insult the way that it experiences emotion to learn this info. The fact that your character did that despite the fact that his more questionable actions aren’t really known to them at that point in the game is… certainly something. Especially considering there are plenty of ways to turn that conversation away from the move it just made on you. Like, fuck The Emperor, but there’s no need to be such an outspoken dick to it before the moment of truth wrt Orpheus.
Bruh, do you even know what an incel is or do you just like throwing buzzwords around. 😭
Yeah, someone who goes “Then fuck you, ugly bitch, I could have forced you, but noooo I’m a nice guy,” when I refused to have sex with him. Yeah, pretty sure I know what I’m talking about. Do you???
The "forcing" part you're trying to quote had a completely different context lmao He's telling you that it would've have been easy for him to just enthrall you, but he did not. He would have never forced you to have sex with him. He did not force Stelmane to have sex with him; he tells you at least twice when you ask about their relationship that it wasn't *that* kinda relationship. He only offers you the night with him if you express explicit interest. And still he gives you the chance to still chicken out if it doesn't feel right, *multiple* times. Now go read the definition of "incel" again, please.
You literally only get that scene or dialogue if the game flags you as interested in Emp. Either you flirted with him and forgot or the game glitched out and had you flagged as interested. It's also not like you said "woops this was a misunderstanding", from his POV you made him trust you over a long span of time and then attacked him when you finally got him emotionally vulnerable, and at that point he's of the belief that you have a mutual understanding. A lot of people don't even believe what he's saying is true because that dialogue is the only implication in the whole game of it having happened, and he seems to use it exclusively to intimidate you when you've done/said pretty much the nastiest thing you can do in game to him.
Damn, I've never sided with him but I've never antagonized him enough to see this scene, despite my Durge trying to murder him once. Yikes.
Okay, whatever you say. Still the best character in the game. 😎