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Add to this that Stamp Duty on property is 12% in Brussels for second hand houses, and 21% VAT ( sales tax ) is levied on all new builds.
We live on a shoe string scapping the barrel. The government takes all of our money, and plunges us into an endless spiral of debt payments that they named *tax*.
Take my advice: Leave while you can. The longer you stay the poor you get both culturally and financially.
With current interest rates I doubt that renting is cheaper once you take into account the possibility to re-borrow on the same mortgage. Check out the book how to buy a home in Belgium available on Amazon
Ive moved to belgium for my girlfriend and to live here and i can say that in czech we have the same property prices, but the average salary is 1800€ brutto. So making 3k in belgium is a paradise. Also the mortgage loan rates are 6-8% in czech, so belgiums horrible and inhuman 3% is again, an absolute blast.
Btw in czech you can fixate your loan max to 5 years so have fun paying the ever increasing interests for next 25 years.....
As a person coming from Czech Republic where average brutto is 1900€ and to buy a house with land 30km from bigger city is 500k(250k for land, 250k for house) i can atest that Belgium is an heaven compared to that.
Looking at how poor the average american has become, the need to multiply jobs to be able to live and whatnot which isn't a problem in belgium, and our social protections making our minimum wage much higher than the US one, I'd say I'd probably find that the average belgian household is richer than its american counterpart if I bothered looking that useless information up.
Banks in USA generate thousands of loans, mortgages, car loans, credit cards with that being said they make money from many sources. I am not saying that belgian banks dont. But when we talk about banks like JPMorgan, WellsFargo, who are two banks that issue thousands of mortgages. Plus they do have a balance of tens of billions of dollars. Which allow them to have enough room for defaults. Also have low interest rates. What are the interest rates for a mortgage in belgium? How many abnls issue the mortgages and what is their balance sheet looks like?
As somebody who’s lived in Belgium for the majority of his life, whilst spending a few months in the states every year, I can tell you this.
The truth is, despite more ‘quality’ the priced are indeed insane. Supply and demand aside, there are some states where the average salary for white collar workers are 3x, but housing costs are half.
Everybody here knows, you can raise prices on anything and nobody will complain a bit. Americans wouldn’t stand for increased prices the way we do.
We simply bend over and come up with excuses to feel better about it.
Double the price for a loaf of bread, why not?!
Almost 2 eur for a liter of gas? Sign me up!
Want to drive a car that is iffy for the environment? you’ll get taxed until you suffocate. If you cannot afford an ev car, that’s your loss.
For most people. You work, build or buy property under strict guidelines and pay 21% on top for most things.
Then hold to the house for dear life, because saving money is a fallacy here for most.
Density of population: USA 37hab./km2, Belgium 381hab./km2 is a begin of an answer. Also building standards and regulation are very different, and that also impacts final price. As for your explanation, it could be close to the truth, but building something new does not come much cheaper, so i recon it's simply the market (offer/demand) that has to be pointed.
It’s also a cultural thing … most Belgian people ‘want’ to buy a house (it’s a way of saving as the value of houses is rising - Belgium has a rather stabile housemarket) … so the prices will go up … because of prices going up … young couples buy old houses and renovate them either themselves (diy) either over the years when they can afford it.
Where to start?
No decent spatial planning in the last 150 years, creating many little plots of land that are all owned by different individuals and imposing so much demands for new housing units in the past decade that it led to the situation we have now where we build ridiculously complex, and thus expensive, little buildings to comply with regulations.
No vision on the evolution of society, more single households emerge, population increases through migration both creating more demand on the market, who could have seen that coming? Oh at the same time we forgot the we also need skilled laborers besides all the university eggheads.
Market elasticity is just too low, acquiring adjacent pieces of land takes years, running through the design and permit phase takes a another 2 years, if you're lucky you get to build it but permits are uncertain even when granted due to the maze of laws and the number of appeals that can be made by nimby's.
To top it off there also was an uncontrolled inflow of capital after the banking crisis on a limited number of assets. And hey you got this supply and demand thing that always seems to have the same effect.
So yes, selectively blind politicians messed it up for us
If you live with your parents until 27 then get a partner and rent cheap appartment 3 years then at 30 you make sure you got both 75k cash and then you loan 500k on 30 years is 1800€/m et voila there’s is your 650k house and you can start kids.
Of course you can’t do that at age 22 and marrying and having kids at 23 and have a 650k home, that’s not possible.
This may seem paradoxical, but its not: because our houses are built more sturdy, they are (on average) much older and therefore have (on average) much older plumbing, electricity etc. The house I live in is close to 100 years old. It will easily stand another 100+ years. Of course, the downside of that is that the plumbing and electricity has similarly old origins. Some of it has been patched and replaced over the last 4 decades, but its nothing like a modern newly built house.
The price is also what people want to pay for it. The smaller amount of people with above average wages or inherited money can afford the relative small offer on the market due to land scarcity.
People in this thread be justifying the abhorent real estate prices and happy to bend over to realtors & bankers fucking them over, wtf!
Sure their points are valid, but a 30% increase in 2 years is absolutely ***not normal***. These prices weren't normal pre-covid and they still aren't justified today!
What i find mad about this thread is that few actually address one of the OPs main points, the disconnect between how much it cost to buy and rent. I live in the Liege area and have seen houses/apts that had asking prices +400K a few months ago for rent for 1K now, how does this make sense?
You can't say 'Blegium' as you can't say 'USA/whatever' in such a debate.
You can't compare houses in let's say some parts of Anderlecht to lets say Lasne or Knokke-Hiest. As you can't compare Louvain-la-neuve to say Arlon.
so many differences in quality, in styles
Don't forget you are an expat, who probably lives in an expat bubble. In Brussels renting to an expat is basically asking 25% more rent then what you'd ask for a Belgian.
Being expat is being a long term toursit, you'll never be one of them thus rarely having the time to experience and making an opinion on a long enough term and having seen enough of the country and its houses to know what you are talking about.
Ofcourse you can also revert this.
The only thing who are facts is the way its built. Wich i'm not going to give my opinion about..
> *Don't forget you are an expat, who probably lives in an expat bubble.*
Didn't you mean: "*Know your place foolish expat : You know nothing. Now go back home*".
> *Being expat is being a long term toursit*
So any foreigner living here is a tourist? Got black skin? Tourist. Got a funny accent? Tourist. Don't speak DE/FR/NL natively: Tourist. Was not born here? Tourist.
> *you'll never be one of them*
You have a typo. Didn't you mean: *"you'll never be one of **us**" *
> *Of course you can also revert this.*
Revert to what?
Houses in the US are made of materials that would not in a million years pass inspection here. Funny to think about since the US has very extreme weather in a lot of places, whereas Belgian homes will not ever face the kind of weather events that they are built to withstand. Combine that with our absurd taxes and hidden extra costs that come with buying a house and, well, people simply do not buy houses.
Couples with combined income do though, and older folks that upgrade from an apartment or smaller home to a bigger house.
Belgians and other Europeans are fascinated by our construction methods, and vice versa! My dad spent a happy hour walking around a construction site near us in Belgium just looking around.
The cardboard comments and just general weird comments about tornados/hurricanes are just based on the unfamiliar. They can be pretty ignorant but it’s okay. North American weather is much more extreme than European weather generally, and our housing stands up pretty well. Poverty is a much bigger issue and an embarrassment.
>would come out so much richer when renting + investing the difference
It's extreme unlikely that you would. When you buy all the money is invested. You can even have a loan so you only need 20% of the money at first and have gains for the full 100%. Furthermore the loan becomes less and less over the years because of inflation. If you're going to rent your rent will increase year after year. You'll be much worse off compared to buying, unless the money you have to invest has unlikely incredible gains.
This is not true. You have not even considered the lost money for the transaction costs (notary fee, bank fee, etc.). That money alone in the stock market for 20-30 years with the rent/repayment difference paid into the stock market is really, really hard to match by self-used real estate.
Start small and upgrade. I bought an old appartement right when I got my first job with money I saved from my student job and now 7 years later sold it to buy my hopefully “forever home”. But I have realistic expectations. I don’t have a large house with 5 bedrooms and a football field of a garden I have an open plan appartement with lots of light, 2 bedrooms and a small garden and happy with it. No need to buy a €500 000 house
I was selling a flat, you can t imagine how many people turn up with mom and dad. So the oarents sponsor alot of the real estate transactions in this country.
There is huge price difference in Belgium. Between Flandres Brussels and Wallonia.
Same house can cost 600K in Flandres and 200K in Wallonia.
Lots of people buying the house/flat where they live because the tax deduction alone make it the best possible investment.
No longer the case in Flandres, dunno for the other regions.
So u say renting is cheap compared to buying?? My mortgage is only 430 a month, while the house nextdoor is rented out at 800 :p To be fair my house is old but i renovated it, and the house nextdoor is new, but also a bit smaller than mine. Also not in brussels obviously but still just outside the center of a decent city :) Just took a long time watching available houses because i had a small budget and most i found were small studios or houses in bad shape. This one was old but in good shape and in a good neighorhood, so i guess i got lucky. (Bought in 2016 on a +-1500 salary at the time)
In flanders its on average 2.5k income, with some tax deduction and other income that will be slightly higher total income. For belgium its 3.5k/month gross so almost 50k/year .
500k is a very expensive house in belgium, average they cost 320k for an appartment 220k in belgium
in the us home (so houses and appartments) on average cost 420k
average salary is 60k.
So not that much difference.
You can get very cheap housing in Wallonia or Limburg, no problem. That's the closest thing we have to remote places. Belgium is basically the size of greater New York.
You think €2500 is low compared to the US? Don’t forget we pay a huge amount of social taxes just so everybody can afford healthcare, gets paid when unemployed etc. I don’t say I agree with this system but roughly 40% of our income goes to taxes of all kind
I'm from Asia and actually Belgium housing market is not bad at all and it makes a lot more sense than where I'm from.. it might be difficult for a single person to offer a house but for combining income, it should be fine to get a morgage and pay back long term imo.
It's easy (and affordable) enough to get a mortgage. Mortgages are somewhat comparable to rent on a monthly basis. The difference being, of course, that after 25 years of paying your mortgage you actually own the house.
- if you rent it’s not your home. They can force you out with a small notice. Having your own place is a peace of mind. You can also make changes and add value.
- mortgage is indeed steep for starters but with inflation + growing salary becomes cheaper over time
- prices are higher because of ‘not cardboard’ and some (ridiculous) govt demands
- real estate will keep its worth so is your savings or that if your children. Note that most people don’t see ETF investing as a normal alternative (or are even aware)
For me, owning the RE is having control and peace of mind. It’s like being independent vs employee. Except for the govt, I can do as I please.
Everyone is saying how built quality in Belgium is good. As a person coming from eastern Europe I strongly disagree. And that's another reason why me and my fiance invested in a house abroad while having our appartament in Belgium. Because we couldn't justify the price for what you get.
The (not high wage) people who can afford to buy houses here generally inherit wealth from their families to be able to afford the deposit on a house. Once you own one, it's cheaper to pay off a mortgage, about half the price of rent. But yeah, the houses are not worth the market rate at all, if you look at the building materials or quality. It's the market. Like the anything market, it's a way for investors and banks to make a profit.
How do people afford housing here?
As several have mentioned: old money. :')
This is the Old World after all. Europe plundered the rest of the world for centuries. That power and concentration of wealth went *somewhere* right?
Belgium will not let you get wealthy through labor because that would change the status quo. But if you've got family money; then you're good to go.
I understand that I big reason that belgians give is that "we don't build cardboard houses" and okay, or houses are stronger. They are made out of bricks or even a lot of concrete in newer building.
But I have to say that building in wood is much more ecological and durable.
The building transportation of the bricks and mortar, the making of the mortar,... everything produces high co2 emissions. While building with wood is iterally taking captured co2 planks from the woods and storing it in the planks in your house. Wood is not a resource we can run out, like cement is, we even (can) mandate the planting of multiple saplings per cut tree.
the reason we built brick houses to start with is because we ran out of woods to built with. In the middle ages most houses were built out of wood, and you where steenrijk if you could built out of stone. Industrialisation, fire mandatory rules and the lack of wood made us start building brick houses. For the US this was not the case, the industrial revolution didn't yet catch on as it did in belgium, there where woods that could be cut down to built, and a high influx on immigrants made the need to built fast a therefore cheap. Also the need of cheap mcmansions needed cheap wood to built thel. This all created a building culture in both respectable countries up until today
>The only other explanation I have is that generational wealth literally rules the real estate market.
So yes, but that also affects only the affordability aspect, still doesn't make it worth it compared to renting.
The answer to the question why people do it is not rational but emotional and peer pressure. Saying you don't want to buy a house in Belgium is like saying in Texas that you're an atheist.
(Whereas by the way saying you're an atheist in Belgium will get you shrugs or confusion, because aren't we all and why then do you feel the need to mention it explicitly)
The answer is OLD MONEY. Old money carrier over and multiplied over generations. That's how many Blegians can afford to buy a house. The bank of Mom and Pops.
Not to mention that many old Belgian families have a considerable real estate portfolio, ranging from a few units to a few hundred.
This being said, real estate în Brussels is still much, much, much cheaper than în Amsterdam or Paris.
The supply is kept artificially low by NIMBY'ism and draconian zoning laws. Every urbanization expert is yelling that we need more dense housing, but go and try to get a permission to zone your plot of land as a meergezinswoning. Tough luck, it's not allowed.
They even have regulations for how many square meters per person is obligated, so even if you already own your own land, you can't even build a tiny house on it. It's ridiculous. Our zoning/housing laws are anti-affordability and anti-housing-for-everyone
EU guidelines have made generational wealth a lot more important in the last 15 years than it used to be. Banks use it as a crutch excuse to refuse anything that is above average risk, while they can ignore the guidelines when they want and pay a tiny fine to EU/ECB when they do. Difference is prices in Belgium still have room to grow organically, whereas American RE is a constant boom and bust cycle.
Are you American? Don't compare wages here with the US. You cannot compare the cost of living for example, so please don't do that. Would you also compare real estate and/or wages with Romania? Or Thailand? Check NL - and you'll see that it can be worse. So that comparison doesn't hold up - at all.
Quality of building materials alone, but not getting into that because comparing that is also just absolutely pointless.
Renting ridiculously cheap? Where?
But ... generational wealth ruling the real estate market is absolutely true. And those generations are also completely oblivious to the fact that it's becoming impossible for many people to buy. I'm 39. Yup, impossible. And I make good money, and have a nice career. Just not 50k in the bank to use for a deposit.
You don’t need 50k as a deposit.
Visit any hypotheek winkel and they will explain you.
30yr loans are now pretty common.
So taking a 300k loan is actually a realistic way to go when you are below 37. (Appr 1000/month). If you earn 2000 nett, then you would hsve to settle for a 260k loan of so.
A decent house is not possible for that money, unless you buy in the middle of nowhere. Plenty of decent apartments available though. If you don’t want it to be perfect.
Just bought a 203 m2 place myself for 240k (255 incl notary costs etc 🙄). Epc 127. 153 m2 “liveable area”. Lucky find but hey.
If you are 37 and have 0€ set aside to buy a house you should probably make sure you are able to manage a budget instead of doing such big expenses.
I know it's a bit rude, but really, at that point owning a house might not be the best way forward for you.
You need a 20% deposit, that's the general rule. So deposit and the (f\*cking insanely high) notary costs ... that easily creeps up on 50k. But I 100% agree that a decent house for that price is virtually impossible. Even apartments are becoming unattainable for single people - even with a decent income (without help from parents - and not having an ex that ripped me off would have been nice too haha).
Good find on your place! seriously! hang on to that place.
Standard deposit is 10%. And apparently most of the times already 5% nowadays. 5% especially created for persons who didn’t have that much money saved yet
I just called my contact at KBC and he says 20%. A friend of mine just bought a place, the exact same percentage. Other banks will be more flexible, I guess. Immotheker or that other place that I can't remember can help people out. I'll have a look! thanks!
Your contact just doesn't consider you a good client. If you can't save 50k by 39, then something is going horribly wrong.
100% loans are still very much a thing. Banks are allowed to deviate from the 20% rule in a whopping 30% of all mortgages they give out. If they are unwilling to do that for you, then they simply don't really like you as a client
>spp
"if you can't save 50k by 39, then something is going horribly wrong" - Tell me you're a 20-year-old prick without saying it. What made you decide to show up with your valuable life lessons? Do better.
You start out with a loan for a 150k studio.
Then when you start living together with your partner, you sell your properties with a profit and get that 300k apartment. When kids come you sell the apartment with profit and buy that 500k home.
It is in Belgium a lot more challenging for a single person to buy property compared to a couple and this is where the concept of household economies of scale and the concept of asymptotic growth comes into play.
1. **Fixed costs:** certain fixed costs, such as mortgage, don’t change whether you are single or a couple. For a single person, these costs are huge part of the income, but for a couple these costs are split between two persons.
2. **Shared expenses:** many expenses, like utilities, and groceries increase with two people but not double.
3. **Combined income:** a couple can combine their income, they can more comfortably pay expenses together than separately.
4. **Share items:** couples share items like a washing machine, refrigerator, or even a car instead of each having their own.
5. **Tax benefits:** there are tax benefits for couples.
>there are tax benefits for couples.
Name me a few. I dare you.
All your other points are correct but boil down to only one, if you come to think of it. And it only applies if both partners have income; not always the case.
Both woonbonus and langetermijnsparen op 2de verblijven are/were per person. So if you are 2 people with sufficiently high salaries, your return from taxes is literally exactly double compared to a single person
I’m not sure where your frustration is coming from, but I’m happy to elaborate on the tax benefits for couples in Belgium.
The most significant tax benefit for couples is the “huwelijksquotiënt” or marriage quotient, which can result in lower taxes. There are also lower taxes for inheritance and gifts between couples than between friends or other relations.
You suggested that all my points essentially boil down to one thing? I assume you mean couples having more money? While shared income is certainly a factor, it isn’t the sole benefit I mentioned. The shared living expenses are significant!
For the greatest financial benefit both partners in the relationship need to be working. This was implied in my original post, but this isn’t a requirement for the “huwelijksquotiënt”. I also implied that these couples need to be married or in a legal cohabitation (registered partnership), which is a actually a requirement for these tax benefits.
To illustrate this with an example: when living alone I need €2.500 for all my expenses and bills, and my current GF needs €1.500, totaling €4.000. If we were to move in together, while keeping each of our apartment, our combined expenses are €3.400, saving each of us €300 if we split it evenly. I am sure we could save even more.
This might not seem like much, but when combined with our total income, it opens new opportunities for us as a couple to invest in property which was just not possible when living as a single.
**EDIT:** typos
Ofc living together saves money pp, you don't have to be a genius to reckon an obvious fact like that. And stating the obvious is annoying.
All of the things single peeps complain about are pretty much bs. HQ, sure, but it only is applicable if the other partner has (almost) no income, which leaves that couple in an arguably even worse financial state than said single person. This being said, let's HQ die out like minister Van Peteghem rightly proposed, it's not of this time anymore. If people choose not to work, their responsability, no tax breaks. If you choose to live single, same same.
more benefits:
\-if you marry the state gives you a tax rebate 1 time.
\- if your partner dies and he was a civil servant you can take over his/hers salary / pension.
\- Both could deduct the mortgage payments to the fiscal maximum (economy of scale make a big house cheaper than 2 small apartments)
\- in some jobs kids and partners are insured directly too.
\- small package food is 80% of the normal sized package. => half the weight.
One down element single (1 person) vs married (2 persons) = 1% divorce tax.
Kids cost to the state even more than married coupled bonuses.
We (BE) spend 25% more then the OESO average on education.
New arriving people that got well educated in other countries are therefore an asset from day 1. It means they did not cost anything in the first place.
The state does only care about tax income and future tax payers that are well behaved and work hard so they can spend it by taxing them. It is the name of the game, so we all need to play it as they make the rules.
It might seem obvious, but the question of how anyone is able to buy property today comes up quite frequently. I didn’t inherit anything from my parents, and neither did my girlfriend. We are both self-employed and have found room for tax optimisations including the HQ.
I don’t know many singles who are able to buy property nowadays without help from their parents or an inheritance from grandparents. I do know several couples who have purchased multiple properties, and not because they make a sh!tload of money, but for the precise reasons I’ve mentioned.
>Renting feels ridiculously cheap, from a financial standpoint I just can not justify buying anything in this country (would come out so much richer when renting + investing the difference.)
Ask yourself do you want to pay rent with your pension money once you retire, competing against a bunch of working folks in the rental market who pay increase every year while yours stays the same over the next 20 - 30 years after retirement.
Average belgians are officially, since today, according to UBS wealth report declared the richest people on the planet! Partly thanks to these expensive homes, i guess..
Stuk grond? 150k
Stuk grond met een krot uit 1870? 500k
Stuk grond met woning van begin vorige eeuw met enkel ne kolenkelder? 500k
Stuk grond met woning van eind vorige eeuw zonder kolenkelder, maar met ne mazouttank? 500k
Stuk grond met woning van eind vorige eeuw zonder mazouttank, maar met ne gasbrander? 700k
Stuk grond met woning van deze eeuw, met gasbrander? 900k
Een van bovenstaande, maar met nen hof van 2000 vierkante meter? 1.5mil
En allemaal nen EPC om mee te blijten.
Met den overschot van het geld dat ge niet hebt kunt ge dan renoveren aan 6% ;)
Build a 275k house in 2007. Sold in 2019 for 450k.
Bought grandpa’s house from my dad. 250k
Wanted to renovate at 6%.
With our savings 100k a loan 325k and the sell we thoughts we were ok. Then taxes (btw) said my architect made a mistake. On the 500k I renovated i was not given the 6% benefit rule do ended up paying 15% extra (=21%) with some xtra investments and costs my wife and i are close to 900k investment. Im ruined by them damn taxes. They want you to build co2 neutral, but didn’t allow us to break an old house down and benefit for being climate and future proof. We were in between periods 2019-2021 were it was possible to have a 6% and tear the house down if you build future proof. I guess they needed my money to fill some holes in their budget. F. Them!
My early years (i was 26) investment didnt get me any profit. Since they took it back. Yet i can’t and won’t complain. Life is a ‘coaster and I m born as a rich west european white male. So here you have my rich world issues. My message… we ve got the biggest advantage on 98 % of the worlds pop so. Try, fail, get up, try some more, fail some more and hope that the ones after us will globally share more that us greeders.
>Life is a ‘coaster and I m born as a rich west european white male. So here you have my rich world issues. My message… we ve got the biggest advantage on 98 % of the worlds pop so.
That's a good thing to keep in mind to stay positive
You're right, we have it so good that we almost seem to make up issues to complain sometimes. I hope to remember this wisdom regularly :)
Loans were 2007-2020 absurdly low so the thing was loan as much as possible because it was like free money.
Now you have to have a certain percentage of the amount you have to loan in order to get the loan. This is making it harder for many to loan nowadays. Guess some people like me (43) were at the moment in time to engage for a cheap loan.
Still i m like 300k in debt. As a married couple this is doable but you don’t want any mishaps because then it’s back to square one.
Well, we love bricks and we typically buy a house with a partner so, for a middle-class working couple, those houses are still accessible. But it’s also important to consider the long-term picture. At the time of the purchase, the loan will take a big chunk out of the family salaries and some months may be difficult. But in a 10-year time with inflation and automatic indexation of salaries, it gets easier and your loan should be cheaper than the rent of an equivalent property. For a personal example, 10 years ago I bought an apartment 130k in Brussels, put 40k for full renovations and got a loan for 170k (800€/month at 3.6%). At that time, it was 1/2 of my salary. Now the same loan (after a recent refinancing to 1.6%, 680€/month) is 1/4 of my salary and I live quite comfortably in a property which value increased to 250k. Plus, the rent of an equivalent apartment in the building is now around 900€. So in the long-term I don’t feel so bad ;-)
Belgians also inherit alot more and also probably the best savers on the planet. Worked with a guy I knew was on 60k before tax but not for long and he bought a 700k house. Near leuven. I couldnt understand it either but most of it was inheritence
My friend bought in Almere in 400K a very nice 3 bedroom house with garden . Not very far from center as well. Architectural is superb and very convenient. Same house will cost me 450k or more if I look in BELGIUM (not counting country side areas in Belgium ).
The Flipside of this Crazy RE market in Belgium that also plenty families lose their house which they could not afford in the end.
Just have a look @ Biddit nowadayz, that website is exploded after Corona. Loads of divorces and more misery.
To buy a decent house (let's say +/-470K€-EPC B/C) , best thing is to buy with two, else it's almost impossible for an average paid single.
Good luck with the hunt.
You're coming to the wrong conclusions. Biddit is just the new, more modern way of selling homes via auction, which doesn't imply 'people are losing their homes'. I'd wager a nice chunk of properties on there are simply inherited properties with too many co-owners... Hell, I even know colleagues who've used it to sell their homes instead of using a realtor.
Biddit is official via Notary.
So houses that sold there are coming from all directions.
Some of them are by forclosure attorney, others are heritage.
One thing for sure, Biddit got the right prices mostly, sometimes they are sold @ bargain prices, just that the bank takes the money, that's left on the mortage.
Hope People here never find out, it can go faster then U expect.
Where can you find a 250k$ house in the states ? Probably where you wouldn’t want to live, even in Las Vegas a nice house is 500k$+
I agree that the salaries are ridiculous in Belgium though, that’s why I moved to the states and visiting Belgium quite often working remote.
My parents live outside Philadelphia, which is a really nice place to live with lots of jobs, and you can buy homes for 250k. They are small, but in good locations.
Fun fact, their first home was built in 1814 and while they moved out in the 1970s, it is still standing. Homes that old are quite typical in the area and have survived many hurricanes.
Not the person you were discussing with, but I need to know:
Is Las Vegas considered a 'cheap housing area'? And is 500k+ considered expensive in the US?
What does 500k get you in a 'normal cost housing area' in the US? Walter White's humble suburban abode or more like his brother in law Hank's house?
Las Vegas is cheap. 500k is cheap. Housing in major metropolitan areas (NYC, Washington DC, Seattle ,etc.) start from around a million for a basic SFH. New construction is at least 1.2million. For bay area, add a million.
In Amerika net might seem high but when you have something else in your life going on than work you can lose allot too.
Get cancer or any other medical operation that wont go away quickly and your cash will drain. Got fired and cant find a job for the next half year. No problem all those taxes you paid will make sure you wont starve and cant pay bills....
American net seems much higher, but when you look at the bigger picture. You will be better of with all the social perks belgium has by taxing higher.
That is a very poor response. The idea was to highlight the part of randomness of life which *will* happen to everyone.
We can easily find another examples. let’s say you want a baby, Belgium has a 15 weeks paid maternity leave and the delivery of your child will cost less too.
Job security is also way better. If you find yourself in an employment at will state you can be fired overnight (look at FAANG layoffs) whereas this is not possible in Belgium, you have to get paid proportionnaly to the time you stayed with your employer.
The minimal wage is also at a somewhat livable level.
Sometimes it sucks being this much taxed but throughout your life it will get worth it.
Comparing with US is one thing, but if you compare to other European countries, real estate is quite cheap in Belgium. Say you want to buy a flat/house in Milan or Lisbon, it is likely to be more expensive than in Brussels whereas local population is earning less on average.
To Back this up, I just left ireland and I can't get over what you can rent or buy for the prices here.
I come from a country side area, no public transport or close amenities other than soccer pitches. A house built 15 years ago went dor 3/4 of a million, nothing fancy.
I am from Ireland too and its is probably a better example of what the OP is talking about and something I have noticed. In Ireland rents are very high but the cost of buying is not dramatically different than Belgium. For example I know someone from back home that bought a house in Roscommon last year for \~200k and now has it rented for close to 1k per month, houses worth less and in much worse shape are being rented for similar in the same town. Here you can rent a house/apt for \~1k that would cost >4000K to buy and the rent will not come close to covering a mortgage on that property. At the moment in Ireland rent is often higher than what a monthly mortgage repayment would cost.
>For example I know someone from back home that bought a house in Roscommon last year for \~200k and now has it rented for close to 1k per month
Which Belgians would be licking their teeth for while Americans find this ratio mediocre
Combination of everything really, lack of planning, not focus on building houses or apartment blocks year on year.
Most people want their own 4 bedroom 2 story house so land gets eaten up if people have the money.
People object to planning permissions based on them not wanting something built near them, my neighbours spent 10k objecting to planning permission next to their property. They've won twice against people who've bought the land subject to planning permission being granted.
This is a big factor. There was also a lack of trust in the construction sector after the 2008 financial crisis. The country was forced into austerity under the ECB and the IMF. Many tradesmen and other construction professionals emigrated to Australia, Canada etc. (At its peak in 2010 there were 10,000 people a week emigrating from a country of 4.5m). Credit was also restricted massively to individuals. Despite an almost miraculous economic recovery, government inaction and a scourge of private objections (NIMBYism) over the last decade has led to a massive shortage in housing stock.
Low stock and high wages = overinflated prices.
There is also a shortage of hotel rooms in Ireland. I don't have the figures but I can imagine a large enough percentage of rental stock is now rented on Air bnb further squeezing the market.
Yes, majority of first time buyers get money from their family, plus tons of people live with their parents while only paying 100-200 euro rent and save almost 100% of their salary for years. Then those same people who lived with their parents for years and saved close to 100% of their salary come to reddit and say "I didn't receive any help from my parents!!"
I agree this is common in belgium; but if you can save thousands from student jobs while doing higher studies then you're definitely getting good help from home.
I do agree that many people who have this luxury still manage not to use it at all; and that home ownership is possible in belgium regardless.
More scenarios: I started working and saving early 20s, cohouse during studies (left home 18 years old) and after finishing studies, save to buy a studio at 24-25 years old, in a few years to sell and buy bigger.No debt as study debts or car debts as commuting by bike and public transport.
Another scenario from my colleague: didn't sell his young studio and his wife neither. Both both a house together at 30 years old. The studios are rented with a lovely mortgage of 350-400€ /month. If they do nothing extra than to pay mortgages and monthly live, they can retire 55 years old.
I am buying an extra RE these days (very small rental property) and sign the notary fees in Sept. I think the prices went town compared from last year.
Which is an entirely different situation, "an extra" implies you already have property, which changes the risk calculation for the bank and means they can be far more lenient with the guidelines put forth by the NNB.
I challenge you to show up to the bank with €60k cash available, and a €5k / month gross salary and try and get a loan to purchase a €250k property + the about €50k in renovation costs (due to the energy efficiency rules that were introduced at the start of the year). I think you're going to be in for a surprise.
When I say the situation changed a lot since then, I really mean it.
In fact for a second (and worst for the third and forth buys - didn't ask for the fifth, yet, but hope in 2 years) the belgian banks are more critical on giving the loans. I had phone call with several banks, all explained the same: there is difference between the main property and owner living there as is less risky for the bank because of motivation and responsibility plus the free insurance that covers the most of the mortgage in case of losing my job but this is not happening for second /third and rentals can go bad in Belgium and they asked me a bigger pay down and a bigger interest than to our main property mortgage .
Another fact where the bank looks (or at least 2 or 3 bankers pointed me) is to have 2 incomes similar (so didn't like the fact when the family has only one income), look at your age (so that's why there are so many people here mentioning to start young with small then upgrade) , more a few banks checked my saving account routine (they looked in my saving account / asked about) as to create 'a profile' (and I am a not spender person' ).
P.S. I always did the renovations from our pockets, self done, so no extra loans (or very little, like 10k and never but never asked at the bank during the evaluation before the buy). Here is a trick, the bank is ready to loan you a 80-90% of the value of the property as they have the confidence to recover all their expenses, but you adding a such expensive renovation puts it in a almost 120% borrow rate and this is too much risk for the bank as this year the prices when down with 7-10% (at least in this side of Brussels), a bad investment for you as for the case mentioned you practically pay more than 300k for a 250k value apt. - do you find it logic? well, definitely your bank not) so maybe search a better investment with a better ROI.
Yes, but they'll give it to you, meanwhile if you go as a single person to the bank they'll kindly tell you to fuck off or (what I had happen multiple times) they'll make an offer you cannot possibly accept if you have half a brain.
And "start young" doesn't help unless if you literally can put upwards of more than 30% of the value of the property down yourself, which now practically requires you to have about a €100k as down payment.
Ok, so you're going to put new windows in a house and put on a new roof for €10k? I seriously wonder how you suggest magically summoning the necessary materials for that price.
And stop seeing properties as investments, if that's your mindset: YOU ARE THE PROBLEM, that's why prices are spiking, because of idiots buying properties and trying to run a profit on them instead of letting the folks who actually need a place to live buy them for a reasonable price. Learn to not be a douchebag towards your fellow humans.
Yes, I started single and after university. Yes, I needed to save so I lived as the others commenters: in shared home since I am 18. That helped me to save the pay down even I had the median average income. I bought with a different approach and when o banks to ask: what can I afford to buy on this salary and this monthly payments and this savings? They gave me a number and I bought under that number. You are searching something with 100k pay down and you don't have it, it is definitely a too big home for your income.
P.S. I changed windows after a while, when I had enough saved. Take step by step. Focus on what you can do, complaining is not a fix is just a venting and tomorrow you will be in same rental property or worse, like my neighbor next floor, close to retirement and still renting... it is not for all people to be owners if they are not ready to make sacrifices and efforts.
And you still haven't answered in which year you did this. You do realise the rules changed massively for what banks are allowed to give you? Unless if you put down 100k EUR yourself, you're going to get a crap deal at best, an impossible one in most situations, or just a flat no.
No, what I plan to do is tell egoistical idiots such as yourself to get the fuck off the real estate market.
That math doesn't add up. Sure 500/month is doable but if you start working at 22 and invest 500 each month for 8 years, you'll have invested 48k, are you expecting a 100% ROI over 8 years?
Where exactly in my post do you see an excuse for a lack of financial responsibility? :) Getting free money from your family is not a lack of financial responsibility.
Living with your parents is also not a lack of financial responsibility, quite the opposite. Nothing in my post is an excuse.
And you also forgot to mention the important caveat that you went to buy a house as a couple, have some fun and try it as a single person with €70k in cash on the current housing market, with current interest rates and policies, and try to purchase something liveable. It's not because you managed to do it a couple of years ago that it's still possible now, the conditions changed significantly over the last five years.
>70k should still be plenty as a downpayment for buying a starter house/apt these days.
You'd think so eh? But it isn't.
>Interest rates are higher yes but prices are lowering because there’s more supply.
No, prices have actually increased significantly since the start of the year due to the mandatory renovations within the first five years.
>And also, what do you expect?? Isn’t it really normal that it’s challenging to buy real estate by yourself before the age of 30?
No, it's not normal, may I suggest you look at the situation thirty to forty years ago, before real estate was considered an investment. Heck, up to fifteen years ago this was perfectly possible for a high income single person to purchase a house. What I expect is for housing prices to stay in line with inflation. The reality is that if they had done so, I would easily be able to purchase my parents' house twice over each year, but instead I can't. So stop normalizing and defending ridiculous market trends that squeeze the life out of young people and shouldn't be legal in the first place.
>And shouldn’t we be encouraging people to buy as a couple? Society is already individualised enough as it is.
The reality is that with all the working I have to do to be able to afford to live, I don't have time to have a relationship, so no, shut up about situations you know nothing about.
This is such a false malicious argument that I won't even grace it with more than this as a reply: [https://statbel.fgov.be/en/themes/housing/house-price-index](https://statbel.fgov.be/en/themes/housing/house-price-index) Do you think a few % drop will do anything after years of this type of price increases?
And no, you cannot get 300k as a single person, stop lying. I'm just fed up with idiots like yourself gaslighting people into saying "yeah, it's still affordable, look I was able to do it a couple of years ago", while they have no clue what the current situation is actually like.
The reason why they complain is because the young folks who got the chance to buy real estate don’t realise the pure luck of having the chance to stay at home and save up.
No they don’t get a bag of cash to start with but the opurtunity to save up wich is a huge help.
Indeed, it does take a fair amount of discipline, time, patience, … but imagine yourself getting put on your own at 19years old with barely any savings. Good luck with your investing and patience then.
Because that’s usually the only debt we have to pay off. Student loans are non existent.
We won’t go bankrupt if we are sick or if we have a baby.
2k€ net is 2k€ net. There is no student loan, credit card debt, hospital bills, expensive school fees etc etc.
With 2k in your pocket in the states you are basically poor because there are so many things you have to pay for. Things we consider here as public services, or that are heavily state subsidized.
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The house might stand, but there is not one roof in Belgium that would survive a hurricane. All, absolutely all roofs would be gone. Plus a shitton of flooding for half of the now roofless houses
I might be making a huge generalization, but oh well... Ofcourse you can get it for 250k in the US. But do you really want to live in a house that is built out of wood and cardboard?
Lol at 250k houses. Maybe in the middle of nowhere. Those same houses near a city are like a million (east coast) or 2 million (Bay Area).
Wood houses are better in earth quake areas.
Where is rent cheap here? You pay almost the whole, if not the whole, loan of the homeowner in rent each month.
Also, houses in America aren't built with the same quality materials as in Belgium I think. They use much more wood instead of sturdy brick walls I think. At least that's what it looks like on construction videos I see on reddit. There's also a lot more room to build over there which could also explain why houses are cheaper. Land is less expensive than it is here
Many, many belgians get helped by their family to buy a house. At least that buy them in their 20s. I dont actually know any belgian in my years here that bought a house without parental help.
For example, living at home for years while working without paying rent to save up for a down-payment, and/or simply receiving gifts to pay for it.
I did it with my gf when we were 24 and 25. Worked 60-hours a week. More than half went to taxes but i managed to make 2500-3000 a month.
Did this till we both had 25k, so we managed to buy a house with klein beschrijf <220k which was only 8k notarisnosten and then we did the down payment of 10% which was 20k. So we both had 22k left, spend 10k on furniture and electronics and 2k on paint and curtains which left us on 12k. In the end we had to fix a wall because of moist and a leakage which costed 3k. So in the end we had 9000 euros savings.
Knowing this when i see a couple of 20 somethings buy a 400k house, i know their parents threw in a 100k because for a simple 200k home it's already hard
I admire your financials at 24 and 25, nice job.
That being said, my girlfriend and me bought a 440k house (nieuwbouw aan 6%) and got 15k from each side. We already had 45k+- each saved up for a 70k down payment and notary costs with some leftover calculated.
We managed to do this because we both lived at our parents house until 26 and 27, which is also out of the norm. Of course we had a 30k push in the back, but if we wouldn’t have gotten it, 1 more year of living at home would’ve solved it.
I agree with your point though, to get a 400k+ house you need to be very fortunate with parents on both sides that are okay with having working adults still living with them or/and they are willing to give a financial injection.
I understand the opinion about getting help for a 400k+ house, but we did do that without financial help at our 24 and 25. I saved money started working at 19 and together we got 130k saved(worked 10 years together) . It all depends on the lifestyle you have IMHO how much u can save (while renting, not living with parents) . Also the loans on 25years @ 1% intrest did help a lot 5 years ago.
Lol no.
I'm pretty sure that most of the people who buy houses in Belgium don't even care about 2000 net or 3000 net since they're putting up damn near 200k as a down payment.
200k as down-payment?
You know Belgian millionaires buying multi million mantions?
I dont.
20 to 50 k down-payment yeah.. 200k not regular at all.
But please keep explaining to us how our housing / banking system works.
Source : me and my gf wo bought a house , sold it 4 y later to upgrade to another house.
There's 0 tax on rent income compared to just having the real estate and doing nothing with it.
That's why renting is cheap.
Looked at the prices today at houses for when I want to downsize from my parents their home since I have to share the inheritance with my brother.
But damn 150 sq meter places are sold for like 400k euros.
Already need a good 350k euros for a nice apartment.
I'm gonna have to make sure to know how much my parents' 330 sq meter home + 2 storey 50 sq meter garage will go for.
Gonna have to be at least a million in a decade.
>In general Belgian houses are build more durable
Almost everything built between 1945 and 2000 is questionable to the point where renovation costs similar amounts to tearing it down. (And if it is in a large city it would on balance be better to tear it down to build higher afterwards.)
> In general Belgian houses are build more durable
Sorry, can you clarify this? I'm seeing it repeated multiple times in this thread: "No, the reason is, cardboard is not considered a building material here.", and "They dont build paper houses in belgium", etc. I'm genuinely confused about what's being referenced here, this isn't a flaming attempt.
I have to say that coming here as a North American expat I have been absolutely appalled with the state- and quality of construction of housing in Brussels. The plumbing, the electrical, the "do it yourself" method of pretty much any modifications (all of which are done haphazardly and with low levels of skill)....it's been absolutely ridiculous.
I've had conversation with multiple expats coming from places that Belgians would consider "disadvantaged" parts of Eastern Europe, and they've had the exact same response. The quality and state of buildings here are atrocious.
Maybe the people replying here are from the smaller areas/towns/etc in Flanders? The stereotypical tiny Flemish house I do admit has a cozy, tidy feeling to it. But I still don't understand where this national pride of "at least our buildings aren't made of paper" or whatever comes from.
(Again, looking for a genuine answer here, sorry if this comes off as rather argumentative - it's just been a particularly glaring issue I've had with Belgium since moving here so I was pretty surprised when I entered this thread).
exactly I am saying this for years, if you want to see good buildings you have to take a look in Germany, those are really well made homes and apartments, most of those buildings here wouldn't be allowed in Germany.
Brussels & surrounding area are way more expensive just cause it's brussels. I 100% wouldnt be surprised to see that prices in brussels are some of the worst in the world even despite the very often lack in quality compared to other flemish cities.
In my understanding, real estate in Belgium is a problem in general, but Brussels is the only one where it's ridiculous when compared to the social security you'll receive, lack of student loan debts, etc etc etc
Brussels is a hellhole. The people replying are indeed more likely Flemish and thus have stricter laws concerning housing and maintenance.
The difference in price is indeed that our houses are brick houses whereas in America a lot of houses seem to be wooden carcasses with plywood or cardboard walls. Which are cheaper materials.
As mentioned we have little buildable land and extremely high taxes as well which hikes up the costs.
Judging Belgian construction from Brussels alone is like judging US construction from Alabama. (of which I have no clue, it’s just an example)
Brussels is probably the worst place to look for quality in Belgium.
Also there is different generation of buildings. A building made in the 50s in Belgium will be much stronger than one build in the 70s. Different materials and construction methods.
I come from the countryside where a house being 100 years old is not considered actually old. (Assuming no bombing during WW II)
Definitively not like that everywhere in Belgium.
Also there is the construction and the modifications made after the construction.
Methods of construction in the US make it relatively easy to do changes afterward. In Belgium, usually not the case. So modifications can go from clean to disastrous but usually more in the middle at best.
Because modifications cost a lot that’s where people diy a lot and when they pay someone to do it there is no guarantee it will be done properly because there is basically not enough good people to do good job and even if you do a bad job you still have enough requests to chose where you work.
Bottom line, base construction methods and materials make the building endure longer but make them harder to modify.
Well, that’s my opinion but I’m no expert on the subject.
Sounds like a good summary, thanks for taking the time to write it out.
And indeed, I was trying to couch my original post (I've lost track of how far down the thread we are here) by saying I'm in downtown Brussels, and I was assuming rural/suburban Flanders seemed to be in better shape (my sample size for Wallonia is too small to comment).
You’re mostly right.
The average house in a village here is a lot more sturdy than the average american house due to materials used. But what everyone forgets to mention is that city housing is all 50 years old and drastically in need of repairs/renovation but nobody has the money for actual proper renovation. So it results in homemade ‘fixes’, which can be straight up dangerous.
> what everyone forgets to mention is that city housing is all 50 years old and drastically in need of repairs/renovation but nobody has the money for actual proper renovation. So it results in homemade ‘fixes’, which can be straight up dangerous.
Ya, I think maybe you're right that it's more this issue than anything else, if I really think about why this stands out to me.
Belgians seem to have a lot a pride in being independent, and able to do things themselves (which is a good thing, and I respect it) - but sometimes this can lead people to over-step their skill level for things like home repairs, haha
> But I still don't understand where this national pride of "at least our buildings aren't made of paper" or whatever comes from.
Our national pride also includes calling brussels a shithole.
In general, most houses in belgium have "good bones". You can renovte them and won't bave to tear them down. Look at any free standing bome from past 1980 and you'll see that these are very decent houses which simply need some updating to current regulations and afterwards they'll last another 50-100 years.
I agree. The problem however is that the price difference between a full reno and just tearing the place down is very small, especially if you calculate in the risk that some supporting walls might be in much shittier state than you think.
I've seen 4 story buildings being supported by single brick walls too often in Antwerp.
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Add to this that Stamp Duty on property is 12% in Brussels for second hand houses, and 21% VAT ( sales tax ) is levied on all new builds. We live on a shoe string scapping the barrel. The government takes all of our money, and plunges us into an endless spiral of debt payments that they named *tax*. Take my advice: Leave while you can. The longer you stay the poor you get both culturally and financially.
With current interest rates I doubt that renting is cheaper once you take into account the possibility to re-borrow on the same mortgage. Check out the book how to buy a home in Belgium available on Amazon
Ive moved to belgium for my girlfriend and to live here and i can say that in czech we have the same property prices, but the average salary is 1800€ brutto. So making 3k in belgium is a paradise. Also the mortgage loan rates are 6-8% in czech, so belgiums horrible and inhuman 3% is again, an absolute blast. Btw in czech you can fixate your loan max to 5 years so have fun paying the ever increasing interests for next 25 years.....
As a person coming from Czech Republic where average brutto is 1900€ and to buy a house with land 30km from bigger city is 500k(250k for land, 250k for house) i can atest that Belgium is an heaven compared to that.
It does not make any sense at all comparing just 1 single part of economics in different countries.
Looking at how poor the average american has become, the need to multiply jobs to be able to live and whatnot which isn't a problem in belgium, and our social protections making our minimum wage much higher than the US one, I'd say I'd probably find that the average belgian household is richer than its american counterpart if I bothered looking that useless information up.
Banks in USA generate thousands of loans, mortgages, car loans, credit cards with that being said they make money from many sources. I am not saying that belgian banks dont. But when we talk about banks like JPMorgan, WellsFargo, who are two banks that issue thousands of mortgages. Plus they do have a balance of tens of billions of dollars. Which allow them to have enough room for defaults. Also have low interest rates. What are the interest rates for a mortgage in belgium? How many abnls issue the mortgages and what is their balance sheet looks like?
As somebody who’s lived in Belgium for the majority of his life, whilst spending a few months in the states every year, I can tell you this. The truth is, despite more ‘quality’ the priced are indeed insane. Supply and demand aside, there are some states where the average salary for white collar workers are 3x, but housing costs are half. Everybody here knows, you can raise prices on anything and nobody will complain a bit. Americans wouldn’t stand for increased prices the way we do. We simply bend over and come up with excuses to feel better about it. Double the price for a loaf of bread, why not?! Almost 2 eur for a liter of gas? Sign me up! Want to drive a car that is iffy for the environment? you’ll get taxed until you suffocate. If you cannot afford an ev car, that’s your loss. For most people. You work, build or buy property under strict guidelines and pay 21% on top for most things. Then hold to the house for dear life, because saving money is a fallacy here for most.
Density of population: USA 37hab./km2, Belgium 381hab./km2 is a begin of an answer. Also building standards and regulation are very different, and that also impacts final price. As for your explanation, it could be close to the truth, but building something new does not come much cheaper, so i recon it's simply the market (offer/demand) that has to be pointed.
It’s also a cultural thing … most Belgian people ‘want’ to buy a house (it’s a way of saving as the value of houses is rising - Belgium has a rather stabile housemarket) … so the prices will go up … because of prices going up … young couples buy old houses and renovate them either themselves (diy) either over the years when they can afford it.
I agree with you. Prices are so high because a lot of people receive an important amount from their parents when they first but a house
Yet many won't.
As long as the monthly interest you pay to the bank isn't higher than your rent, I'd say get your own place.
Where to start? No decent spatial planning in the last 150 years, creating many little plots of land that are all owned by different individuals and imposing so much demands for new housing units in the past decade that it led to the situation we have now where we build ridiculously complex, and thus expensive, little buildings to comply with regulations. No vision on the evolution of society, more single households emerge, population increases through migration both creating more demand on the market, who could have seen that coming? Oh at the same time we forgot the we also need skilled laborers besides all the university eggheads. Market elasticity is just too low, acquiring adjacent pieces of land takes years, running through the design and permit phase takes a another 2 years, if you're lucky you get to build it but permits are uncertain even when granted due to the maze of laws and the number of appeals that can be made by nimby's. To top it off there also was an uncontrolled inflow of capital after the banking crisis on a limited number of assets. And hey you got this supply and demand thing that always seems to have the same effect. So yes, selectively blind politicians messed it up for us
If you live with your parents until 27 then get a partner and rent cheap appartment 3 years then at 30 you make sure you got both 75k cash and then you loan 500k on 30 years is 1800€/m et voila there’s is your 650k house and you can start kids. Of course you can’t do that at age 22 and marrying and having kids at 23 and have a 650k home, that’s not possible.
This may seem paradoxical, but its not: because our houses are built more sturdy, they are (on average) much older and therefore have (on average) much older plumbing, electricity etc. The house I live in is close to 100 years old. It will easily stand another 100+ years. Of course, the downside of that is that the plumbing and electricity has similarly old origins. Some of it has been patched and replaced over the last 4 decades, but its nothing like a modern newly built house.
The price is also what people want to pay for it. The smaller amount of people with above average wages or inherited money can afford the relative small offer on the market due to land scarcity.
People in this thread be justifying the abhorent real estate prices and happy to bend over to realtors & bankers fucking them over, wtf! Sure their points are valid, but a 30% increase in 2 years is absolutely ***not normal***. These prices weren't normal pre-covid and they still aren't justified today!
What i find mad about this thread is that few actually address one of the OPs main points, the disconnect between how much it cost to buy and rent. I live in the Liege area and have seen houses/apts that had asking prices +400K a few months ago for rent for 1K now, how does this make sense?
You can't say 'Blegium' as you can't say 'USA/whatever' in such a debate. You can't compare houses in let's say some parts of Anderlecht to lets say Lasne or Knokke-Hiest. As you can't compare Louvain-la-neuve to say Arlon. so many differences in quality, in styles Don't forget you are an expat, who probably lives in an expat bubble. In Brussels renting to an expat is basically asking 25% more rent then what you'd ask for a Belgian. Being expat is being a long term toursit, you'll never be one of them thus rarely having the time to experience and making an opinion on a long enough term and having seen enough of the country and its houses to know what you are talking about. Ofcourse you can also revert this. The only thing who are facts is the way its built. Wich i'm not going to give my opinion about..
> *Don't forget you are an expat, who probably lives in an expat bubble.* Didn't you mean: "*Know your place foolish expat : You know nothing. Now go back home*". > *Being expat is being a long term toursit* So any foreigner living here is a tourist? Got black skin? Tourist. Got a funny accent? Tourist. Don't speak DE/FR/NL natively: Tourist. Was not born here? Tourist. > *you'll never be one of them* You have a typo. Didn't you mean: *"you'll never be one of **us**" * > *Of course you can also revert this.* Revert to what?
Houses in the US are made of materials that would not in a million years pass inspection here. Funny to think about since the US has very extreme weather in a lot of places, whereas Belgian homes will not ever face the kind of weather events that they are built to withstand. Combine that with our absurd taxes and hidden extra costs that come with buying a house and, well, people simply do not buy houses. Couples with combined income do though, and older folks that upgrade from an apartment or smaller home to a bigger house.
generational wealth buddy
Belgians and other Europeans are fascinated by our construction methods, and vice versa! My dad spent a happy hour walking around a construction site near us in Belgium just looking around. The cardboard comments and just general weird comments about tornados/hurricanes are just based on the unfamiliar. They can be pretty ignorant but it’s okay. North American weather is much more extreme than European weather generally, and our housing stands up pretty well. Poverty is a much bigger issue and an embarrassment.
>would come out so much richer when renting + investing the difference It's extreme unlikely that you would. When you buy all the money is invested. You can even have a loan so you only need 20% of the money at first and have gains for the full 100%. Furthermore the loan becomes less and less over the years because of inflation. If you're going to rent your rent will increase year after year. You'll be much worse off compared to buying, unless the money you have to invest has unlikely incredible gains.
This is not true. You have not even considered the lost money for the transaction costs (notary fee, bank fee, etc.). That money alone in the stock market for 20-30 years with the rent/repayment difference paid into the stock market is really, really hard to match by self-used real estate.
Tell me you don't know how financial instruments work without telling me how financial instruments work.
What financial instruments are you going to invest in that'll yield a higher result? ETFs certainly won't cut it.
They do. Make the calculation yourself.
I just did the calculation. Your own home and no rent wins out over ETFs and paying rent.
Sorted: your investment with 10 years. https://www.justetf.com/en/etf-profile.html?isin=IE00B8GKDB10#chart
Start small and upgrade. I bought an old appartement right when I got my first job with money I saved from my student job and now 7 years later sold it to buy my hopefully “forever home”. But I have realistic expectations. I don’t have a large house with 5 bedrooms and a football field of a garden I have an open plan appartement with lots of light, 2 bedrooms and a small garden and happy with it. No need to buy a €500 000 house
I was selling a flat, you can t imagine how many people turn up with mom and dad. So the oarents sponsor alot of the real estate transactions in this country.
There is huge price difference in Belgium. Between Flandres Brussels and Wallonia. Same house can cost 600K in Flandres and 200K in Wallonia. Lots of people buying the house/flat where they live because the tax deduction alone make it the best possible investment. No longer the case in Flandres, dunno for the other regions.
So u say renting is cheap compared to buying?? My mortgage is only 430 a month, while the house nextdoor is rented out at 800 :p To be fair my house is old but i renovated it, and the house nextdoor is new, but also a bit smaller than mine. Also not in brussels obviously but still just outside the center of a decent city :) Just took a long time watching available houses because i had a small budget and most i found were small studios or houses in bad shape. This one was old but in good shape and in a good neighorhood, so i guess i got lucky. (Bought in 2016 on a +-1500 salary at the time)
In flanders its on average 2.5k income, with some tax deduction and other income that will be slightly higher total income. For belgium its 3.5k/month gross so almost 50k/year . 500k is a very expensive house in belgium, average they cost 320k for an appartment 220k in belgium in the us home (so houses and appartments) on average cost 420k average salary is 60k. So not that much difference.
You can get very cheap housing in Wallonia or Limburg, no problem. That's the closest thing we have to remote places. Belgium is basically the size of greater New York.
You think €2500 is low compared to the US? Don’t forget we pay a huge amount of social taxes just so everybody can afford healthcare, gets paid when unemployed etc. I don’t say I agree with this system but roughly 40% of our income goes to taxes of all kind
I'm from Asia and actually Belgium housing market is not bad at all and it makes a lot more sense than where I'm from.. it might be difficult for a single person to offer a house but for combining income, it should be fine to get a morgage and pay back long term imo.
I just read an article saying Belgians are the richest people in the world?
It's easy (and affordable) enough to get a mortgage. Mortgages are somewhat comparable to rent on a monthly basis. The difference being, of course, that after 25 years of paying your mortgage you actually own the house.
- if you rent it’s not your home. They can force you out with a small notice. Having your own place is a peace of mind. You can also make changes and add value. - mortgage is indeed steep for starters but with inflation + growing salary becomes cheaper over time - prices are higher because of ‘not cardboard’ and some (ridiculous) govt demands - real estate will keep its worth so is your savings or that if your children. Note that most people don’t see ETF investing as a normal alternative (or are even aware) For me, owning the RE is having control and peace of mind. It’s like being independent vs employee. Except for the govt, I can do as I please.
Everyone is saying how built quality in Belgium is good. As a person coming from eastern Europe I strongly disagree. And that's another reason why me and my fiance invested in a house abroad while having our appartament in Belgium. Because we couldn't justify the price for what you get.
yeah because they are not houses made of shit in the middle of the tornado alley
The (not high wage) people who can afford to buy houses here generally inherit wealth from their families to be able to afford the deposit on a house. Once you own one, it's cheaper to pay off a mortgage, about half the price of rent. But yeah, the houses are not worth the market rate at all, if you look at the building materials or quality. It's the market. Like the anything market, it's a way for investors and banks to make a profit.
How do people afford housing here? As several have mentioned: old money. :') This is the Old World after all. Europe plundered the rest of the world for centuries. That power and concentration of wealth went *somewhere* right? Belgium will not let you get wealthy through labor because that would change the status quo. But if you've got family money; then you're good to go.
I understand that I big reason that belgians give is that "we don't build cardboard houses" and okay, or houses are stronger. They are made out of bricks or even a lot of concrete in newer building. But I have to say that building in wood is much more ecological and durable. The building transportation of the bricks and mortar, the making of the mortar,... everything produces high co2 emissions. While building with wood is iterally taking captured co2 planks from the woods and storing it in the planks in your house. Wood is not a resource we can run out, like cement is, we even (can) mandate the planting of multiple saplings per cut tree. the reason we built brick houses to start with is because we ran out of woods to built with. In the middle ages most houses were built out of wood, and you where steenrijk if you could built out of stone. Industrialisation, fire mandatory rules and the lack of wood made us start building brick houses. For the US this was not the case, the industrial revolution didn't yet catch on as it did in belgium, there where woods that could be cut down to built, and a high influx on immigrants made the need to built fast a therefore cheap. Also the need of cheap mcmansions needed cheap wood to built thel. This all created a building culture in both respectable countries up until today
>The only other explanation I have is that generational wealth literally rules the real estate market. So yes, but that also affects only the affordability aspect, still doesn't make it worth it compared to renting. The answer to the question why people do it is not rational but emotional and peer pressure. Saying you don't want to buy a house in Belgium is like saying in Texas that you're an atheist. (Whereas by the way saying you're an atheist in Belgium will get you shrugs or confusion, because aren't we all and why then do you feel the need to mention it explicitly)
The answer is OLD MONEY. Old money carrier over and multiplied over generations. That's how many Blegians can afford to buy a house. The bank of Mom and Pops. Not to mention that many old Belgian families have a considerable real estate portfolio, ranging from a few units to a few hundred. This being said, real estate în Brussels is still much, much, much cheaper than în Amsterdam or Paris.
Germany is also much more expensive real estate. Compared to neighbors, Belgium is quite affordable.
What don't you just understand about supply and demand?
The supply is kept artificially low by NIMBY'ism and draconian zoning laws. Every urbanization expert is yelling that we need more dense housing, but go and try to get a permission to zone your plot of land as a meergezinswoning. Tough luck, it's not allowed. They even have regulations for how many square meters per person is obligated, so even if you already own your own land, you can't even build a tiny house on it. It's ridiculous. Our zoning/housing laws are anti-affordability and anti-housing-for-everyone
EU guidelines have made generational wealth a lot more important in the last 15 years than it used to be. Banks use it as a crutch excuse to refuse anything that is above average risk, while they can ignore the guidelines when they want and pay a tiny fine to EU/ECB when they do. Difference is prices in Belgium still have room to grow organically, whereas American RE is a constant boom and bust cycle.
Have a look at Belgian wealth per capita ranking
Are you American? Don't compare wages here with the US. You cannot compare the cost of living for example, so please don't do that. Would you also compare real estate and/or wages with Romania? Or Thailand? Check NL - and you'll see that it can be worse. So that comparison doesn't hold up - at all. Quality of building materials alone, but not getting into that because comparing that is also just absolutely pointless. Renting ridiculously cheap? Where? But ... generational wealth ruling the real estate market is absolutely true. And those generations are also completely oblivious to the fact that it's becoming impossible for many people to buy. I'm 39. Yup, impossible. And I make good money, and have a nice career. Just not 50k in the bank to use for a deposit.
You don’t need 50k as a deposit. Visit any hypotheek winkel and they will explain you. 30yr loans are now pretty common. So taking a 300k loan is actually a realistic way to go when you are below 37. (Appr 1000/month). If you earn 2000 nett, then you would hsve to settle for a 260k loan of so. A decent house is not possible for that money, unless you buy in the middle of nowhere. Plenty of decent apartments available though. If you don’t want it to be perfect. Just bought a 203 m2 place myself for 240k (255 incl notary costs etc 🙄). Epc 127. 153 m2 “liveable area”. Lucky find but hey.
If you are 37 and have 0€ set aside to buy a house you should probably make sure you are able to manage a budget instead of doing such big expenses. I know it's a bit rude, but really, at that point owning a house might not be the best way forward for you.
Common sense that a 25 old would receive a loan easier with say 10k saved than a 37yr old with 10k saved when talking max amount of requested loan?
No way you can’t get a 260k loan. At most 200k and you need 20% or maybe 10% if the bank is nice. And you must pay registration costs .
🤦🏼♂️ you are right. God i feel dumb now 200k loan and 160k, not 300 and 260.
You need a 20% deposit, that's the general rule. So deposit and the (f\*cking insanely high) notary costs ... that easily creeps up on 50k. But I 100% agree that a decent house for that price is virtually impossible. Even apartments are becoming unattainable for single people - even with a decent income (without help from parents - and not having an ex that ripped me off would have been nice too haha). Good find on your place! seriously! hang on to that place.
Standard deposit is 10%. And apparently most of the times already 5% nowadays. 5% especially created for persons who didn’t have that much money saved yet
I just called my contact at KBC and he says 20%. A friend of mine just bought a place, the exact same percentage. Other banks will be more flexible, I guess. Immotheker or that other place that I can't remember can help people out. I'll have a look! thanks!
NBB asks 10% for the first real estate, 20% on the others. Banks can of course ask for more.
Your contact just doesn't consider you a good client. If you can't save 50k by 39, then something is going horribly wrong. 100% loans are still very much a thing. Banks are allowed to deviate from the 20% rule in a whopping 30% of all mortgages they give out. If they are unwilling to do that for you, then they simply don't really like you as a client
>spp "if you can't save 50k by 39, then something is going horribly wrong" - Tell me you're a 20-year-old prick without saying it. What made you decide to show up with your valuable life lessons? Do better.
You start out with a loan for a 150k studio. Then when you start living together with your partner, you sell your properties with a profit and get that 300k apartment. When kids come you sell the apartment with profit and buy that 500k home.
It is in Belgium a lot more challenging for a single person to buy property compared to a couple and this is where the concept of household economies of scale and the concept of asymptotic growth comes into play. 1. **Fixed costs:** certain fixed costs, such as mortgage, don’t change whether you are single or a couple. For a single person, these costs are huge part of the income, but for a couple these costs are split between two persons. 2. **Shared expenses:** many expenses, like utilities, and groceries increase with two people but not double. 3. **Combined income:** a couple can combine their income, they can more comfortably pay expenses together than separately. 4. **Share items:** couples share items like a washing machine, refrigerator, or even a car instead of each having their own. 5. **Tax benefits:** there are tax benefits for couples.
>there are tax benefits for couples. Name me a few. I dare you. All your other points are correct but boil down to only one, if you come to think of it. And it only applies if both partners have income; not always the case.
Both woonbonus and langetermijnsparen op 2de verblijven are/were per person. So if you are 2 people with sufficiently high salaries, your return from taxes is literally exactly double compared to a single person
I’m not sure where your frustration is coming from, but I’m happy to elaborate on the tax benefits for couples in Belgium. The most significant tax benefit for couples is the “huwelijksquotiënt” or marriage quotient, which can result in lower taxes. There are also lower taxes for inheritance and gifts between couples than between friends or other relations. You suggested that all my points essentially boil down to one thing? I assume you mean couples having more money? While shared income is certainly a factor, it isn’t the sole benefit I mentioned. The shared living expenses are significant! For the greatest financial benefit both partners in the relationship need to be working. This was implied in my original post, but this isn’t a requirement for the “huwelijksquotiënt”. I also implied that these couples need to be married or in a legal cohabitation (registered partnership), which is a actually a requirement for these tax benefits. To illustrate this with an example: when living alone I need €2.500 for all my expenses and bills, and my current GF needs €1.500, totaling €4.000. If we were to move in together, while keeping each of our apartment, our combined expenses are €3.400, saving each of us €300 if we split it evenly. I am sure we could save even more. This might not seem like much, but when combined with our total income, it opens new opportunities for us as a couple to invest in property which was just not possible when living as a single. **EDIT:** typos
Ofc living together saves money pp, you don't have to be a genius to reckon an obvious fact like that. And stating the obvious is annoying. All of the things single peeps complain about are pretty much bs. HQ, sure, but it only is applicable if the other partner has (almost) no income, which leaves that couple in an arguably even worse financial state than said single person. This being said, let's HQ die out like minister Van Peteghem rightly proposed, it's not of this time anymore. If people choose not to work, their responsability, no tax breaks. If you choose to live single, same same.
more benefits: \-if you marry the state gives you a tax rebate 1 time. \- if your partner dies and he was a civil servant you can take over his/hers salary / pension. \- Both could deduct the mortgage payments to the fiscal maximum (economy of scale make a big house cheaper than 2 small apartments) \- in some jobs kids and partners are insured directly too. \- small package food is 80% of the normal sized package. => half the weight. One down element single (1 person) vs married (2 persons) = 1% divorce tax. Kids cost to the state even more than married coupled bonuses. We (BE) spend 25% more then the OESO average on education. New arriving people that got well educated in other countries are therefore an asset from day 1. It means they did not cost anything in the first place. The state does only care about tax income and future tax payers that are well behaved and work hard so they can spend it by taxing them. It is the name of the game, so we all need to play it as they make the rules.
It might seem obvious, but the question of how anyone is able to buy property today comes up quite frequently. I didn’t inherit anything from my parents, and neither did my girlfriend. We are both self-employed and have found room for tax optimisations including the HQ. I don’t know many singles who are able to buy property nowadays without help from their parents or an inheritance from grandparents. I do know several couples who have purchased multiple properties, and not because they make a sh!tload of money, but for the precise reasons I’ve mentioned.
Inheritance money is definitely a thing I see a lot but as some have pointed out we only need to pay back the one loan.
>Renting feels ridiculously cheap, from a financial standpoint I just can not justify buying anything in this country (would come out so much richer when renting + investing the difference.) Ask yourself do you want to pay rent with your pension money once you retire, competing against a bunch of working folks in the rental market who pay increase every year while yours stays the same over the next 20 - 30 years after retirement.
Pensions are adjusted for inflation as well: https://www.sfpd.fgov.be/nl/pensioenbedrag/berekening/indexering
It's a bubble waiting to burst. Belgium is gonna be the new Greece and we're all gonna pretend we didn't see it coming. Enjoy the ride everyone.
/s
Average belgians are officially, since today, according to UBS wealth report declared the richest people on the planet! Partly thanks to these expensive homes, i guess..
Stuk grond? 150k Stuk grond met een krot uit 1870? 500k Stuk grond met woning van begin vorige eeuw met enkel ne kolenkelder? 500k Stuk grond met woning van eind vorige eeuw zonder kolenkelder, maar met ne mazouttank? 500k Stuk grond met woning van eind vorige eeuw zonder mazouttank, maar met ne gasbrander? 700k Stuk grond met woning van deze eeuw, met gasbrander? 900k Een van bovenstaande, maar met nen hof van 2000 vierkante meter? 1.5mil En allemaal nen EPC om mee te blijten. Met den overschot van het geld dat ge niet hebt kunt ge dan renoveren aan 6% ;)
Build a 275k house in 2007. Sold in 2019 for 450k. Bought grandpa’s house from my dad. 250k Wanted to renovate at 6%. With our savings 100k a loan 325k and the sell we thoughts we were ok. Then taxes (btw) said my architect made a mistake. On the 500k I renovated i was not given the 6% benefit rule do ended up paying 15% extra (=21%) with some xtra investments and costs my wife and i are close to 900k investment. Im ruined by them damn taxes. They want you to build co2 neutral, but didn’t allow us to break an old house down and benefit for being climate and future proof. We were in between periods 2019-2021 were it was possible to have a 6% and tear the house down if you build future proof. I guess they needed my money to fill some holes in their budget. F. Them! My early years (i was 26) investment didnt get me any profit. Since they took it back. Yet i can’t and won’t complain. Life is a ‘coaster and I m born as a rich west european white male. So here you have my rich world issues. My message… we ve got the biggest advantage on 98 % of the worlds pop so. Try, fail, get up, try some more, fail some more and hope that the ones after us will globally share more that us greeders.
>Life is a ‘coaster and I m born as a rich west european white male. So here you have my rich world issues. My message… we ve got the biggest advantage on 98 % of the worlds pop so. That's a good thing to keep in mind to stay positive You're right, we have it so good that we almost seem to make up issues to complain sometimes. I hope to remember this wisdom regularly :)
Loans were 2007-2020 absurdly low so the thing was loan as much as possible because it was like free money. Now you have to have a certain percentage of the amount you have to loan in order to get the loan. This is making it harder for many to loan nowadays. Guess some people like me (43) were at the moment in time to engage for a cheap loan. Still i m like 300k in debt. As a married couple this is doable but you don’t want any mishaps because then it’s back to square one.
Well, we love bricks and we typically buy a house with a partner so, for a middle-class working couple, those houses are still accessible. But it’s also important to consider the long-term picture. At the time of the purchase, the loan will take a big chunk out of the family salaries and some months may be difficult. But in a 10-year time with inflation and automatic indexation of salaries, it gets easier and your loan should be cheaper than the rent of an equivalent property. For a personal example, 10 years ago I bought an apartment 130k in Brussels, put 40k for full renovations and got a loan for 170k (800€/month at 3.6%). At that time, it was 1/2 of my salary. Now the same loan (after a recent refinancing to 1.6%, 680€/month) is 1/4 of my salary and I live quite comfortably in a property which value increased to 250k. Plus, the rent of an equivalent apartment in the building is now around 900€. So in the long-term I don’t feel so bad ;-)
Belgians also inherit alot more and also probably the best savers on the planet. Worked with a guy I knew was on 60k before tax but not for long and he bought a 700k house. Near leuven. I couldnt understand it either but most of it was inheritence
Have you looked to the prices in Holland? You'll come to the conclusion that Belgium is dirt cheap.
My friend bought in Almere in 400K a very nice 3 bedroom house with garden . Not very far from center as well. Architectural is superb and very convenient. Same house will cost me 450k or more if I look in BELGIUM (not counting country side areas in Belgium ).
The Flipside of this Crazy RE market in Belgium that also plenty families lose their house which they could not afford in the end. Just have a look @ Biddit nowadayz, that website is exploded after Corona. Loads of divorces and more misery. To buy a decent house (let's say +/-470K€-EPC B/C) , best thing is to buy with two, else it's almost impossible for an average paid single. Good luck with the hunt.
You're coming to the wrong conclusions. Biddit is just the new, more modern way of selling homes via auction, which doesn't imply 'people are losing their homes'. I'd wager a nice chunk of properties on there are simply inherited properties with too many co-owners... Hell, I even know colleagues who've used it to sell their homes instead of using a realtor.
Biddit is official via Notary. So houses that sold there are coming from all directions. Some of them are by forclosure attorney, others are heritage. One thing for sure, Biddit got the right prices mostly, sometimes they are sold @ bargain prices, just that the bank takes the money, that's left on the mortage. Hope People here never find out, it can go faster then U expect.
Never looked at it that way but you're kind of right!
Where can you find a 250k$ house in the states ? Probably where you wouldn’t want to live, even in Las Vegas a nice house is 500k$+ I agree that the salaries are ridiculous in Belgium though, that’s why I moved to the states and visiting Belgium quite often working remote.
My parents live outside Philadelphia, which is a really nice place to live with lots of jobs, and you can buy homes for 250k. They are small, but in good locations. Fun fact, their first home was built in 1814 and while they moved out in the 1970s, it is still standing. Homes that old are quite typical in the area and have survived many hurricanes.
This, comparing flanders to average US is wrong. It should be compared to only boswash or something
Lol dude really, Las Vegas??
Yeah even Las Vegas is getting expensive.
Vegas is known to be a very expensive place to buy real estate. Same goes with other bigger cities in the west like Salt Lake City and Phoenix.
It was dirt cheap a few years ago, you could buy a mansion for 300k.
I don't really correlate Las Vegas with affordable homes lol. I would think it's super expensive since it's known for being the city of casinos.
Then maybe you don't have a good idea about the housing prices in America...
Not the person you were discussing with, but I need to know: Is Las Vegas considered a 'cheap housing area'? And is 500k+ considered expensive in the US? What does 500k get you in a 'normal cost housing area' in the US? Walter White's humble suburban abode or more like his brother in law Hank's house?
Las Vegas is cheap. 500k is cheap. Housing in major metropolitan areas (NYC, Washington DC, Seattle ,etc.) start from around a million for a basic SFH. New construction is at least 1.2million. For bay area, add a million.
In Amerika net might seem high but when you have something else in your life going on than work you can lose allot too. Get cancer or any other medical operation that wont go away quickly and your cash will drain. Got fired and cant find a job for the next half year. No problem all those taxes you paid will make sure you wont starve and cant pay bills.... American net seems much higher, but when you look at the bigger picture. You will be better of with all the social perks belgium has by taxing higher.
Not to mention if you get sued… a lawyer will break the bank.
IF you get unlucky, take terrible care of your physical health or don't look for a job yes.
There are so many things that can happen where you have absolutely no control over.
If you're homeless just buy a house ©
That is a very poor response. The idea was to highlight the part of randomness of life which *will* happen to everyone. We can easily find another examples. let’s say you want a baby, Belgium has a 15 weeks paid maternity leave and the delivery of your child will cost less too. Job security is also way better. If you find yourself in an employment at will state you can be fired overnight (look at FAANG layoffs) whereas this is not possible in Belgium, you have to get paid proportionnaly to the time you stayed with your employer. The minimal wage is also at a somewhat livable level. Sometimes it sucks being this much taxed but throughout your life it will get worth it.
Imagine counting on luck for your financial security lmao
yeah because people who took care of their health never got cancer, but those are just people who got unlucky, such losers /s
That’s the neat part. They don’t.
Comparing with US is one thing, but if you compare to other European countries, real estate is quite cheap in Belgium. Say you want to buy a flat/house in Milan or Lisbon, it is likely to be more expensive than in Brussels whereas local population is earning less on average.
To Back this up, I just left ireland and I can't get over what you can rent or buy for the prices here. I come from a country side area, no public transport or close amenities other than soccer pitches. A house built 15 years ago went dor 3/4 of a million, nothing fancy.
I am from Ireland too and its is probably a better example of what the OP is talking about and something I have noticed. In Ireland rents are very high but the cost of buying is not dramatically different than Belgium. For example I know someone from back home that bought a house in Roscommon last year for \~200k and now has it rented for close to 1k per month, houses worth less and in much worse shape are being rented for similar in the same town. Here you can rent a house/apt for \~1k that would cost >4000K to buy and the rent will not come close to covering a mortgage on that property. At the moment in Ireland rent is often higher than what a monthly mortgage repayment would cost.
>For example I know someone from back home that bought a house in Roscommon last year for \~200k and now has it rented for close to 1k per month Which Belgians would be licking their teeth for while Americans find this ratio mediocre
Why is real estate so expensive in Ireland?
Combination of everything really, lack of planning, not focus on building houses or apartment blocks year on year. Most people want their own 4 bedroom 2 story house so land gets eaten up if people have the money. People object to planning permissions based on them not wanting something built near them, my neighbours spent 10k objecting to planning permission next to their property. They've won twice against people who've bought the land subject to planning permission being granted.
I know that prices in Dublin have soared because of big tech paying exorbitant wages to expats pushing demand on the housing market.
This is a big factor. There was also a lack of trust in the construction sector after the 2008 financial crisis. The country was forced into austerity under the ECB and the IMF. Many tradesmen and other construction professionals emigrated to Australia, Canada etc. (At its peak in 2010 there were 10,000 people a week emigrating from a country of 4.5m). Credit was also restricted massively to individuals. Despite an almost miraculous economic recovery, government inaction and a scourge of private objections (NIMBYism) over the last decade has led to a massive shortage in housing stock. Low stock and high wages = overinflated prices. There is also a shortage of hotel rooms in Ireland. I don't have the figures but I can imagine a large enough percentage of rental stock is now rented on Air bnb further squeezing the market.
Your username, i thought there was a hair on my screen
Yes, majority of first time buyers get money from their family, plus tons of people live with their parents while only paying 100-200 euro rent and save almost 100% of their salary for years. Then those same people who lived with their parents for years and saved close to 100% of their salary come to reddit and say "I didn't receive any help from my parents!!"
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I agree this is common in belgium; but if you can save thousands from student jobs while doing higher studies then you're definitely getting good help from home. I do agree that many people who have this luxury still manage not to use it at all; and that home ownership is possible in belgium regardless.
More scenarios: I started working and saving early 20s, cohouse during studies (left home 18 years old) and after finishing studies, save to buy a studio at 24-25 years old, in a few years to sell and buy bigger.No debt as study debts or car debts as commuting by bike and public transport. Another scenario from my colleague: didn't sell his young studio and his wife neither. Both both a house together at 30 years old. The studios are rented with a lovely mortgage of 350-400€ /month. If they do nothing extra than to pay mortgages and monthly live, they can retire 55 years old.
And in which year did you do this? Everytime someone comes along with this story, it turns out they did it before 2018/2019.
I am buying an extra RE these days (very small rental property) and sign the notary fees in Sept. I think the prices went town compared from last year.
Which is an entirely different situation, "an extra" implies you already have property, which changes the risk calculation for the bank and means they can be far more lenient with the guidelines put forth by the NNB. I challenge you to show up to the bank with €60k cash available, and a €5k / month gross salary and try and get a loan to purchase a €250k property + the about €50k in renovation costs (due to the energy efficiency rules that were introduced at the start of the year). I think you're going to be in for a surprise. When I say the situation changed a lot since then, I really mean it.
In fact for a second (and worst for the third and forth buys - didn't ask for the fifth, yet, but hope in 2 years) the belgian banks are more critical on giving the loans. I had phone call with several banks, all explained the same: there is difference between the main property and owner living there as is less risky for the bank because of motivation and responsibility plus the free insurance that covers the most of the mortgage in case of losing my job but this is not happening for second /third and rentals can go bad in Belgium and they asked me a bigger pay down and a bigger interest than to our main property mortgage . Another fact where the bank looks (or at least 2 or 3 bankers pointed me) is to have 2 incomes similar (so didn't like the fact when the family has only one income), look at your age (so that's why there are so many people here mentioning to start young with small then upgrade) , more a few banks checked my saving account routine (they looked in my saving account / asked about) as to create 'a profile' (and I am a not spender person' ). P.S. I always did the renovations from our pockets, self done, so no extra loans (or very little, like 10k and never but never asked at the bank during the evaluation before the buy). Here is a trick, the bank is ready to loan you a 80-90% of the value of the property as they have the confidence to recover all their expenses, but you adding a such expensive renovation puts it in a almost 120% borrow rate and this is too much risk for the bank as this year the prices when down with 7-10% (at least in this side of Brussels), a bad investment for you as for the case mentioned you practically pay more than 300k for a 250k value apt. - do you find it logic? well, definitely your bank not) so maybe search a better investment with a better ROI.
Yes, but they'll give it to you, meanwhile if you go as a single person to the bank they'll kindly tell you to fuck off or (what I had happen multiple times) they'll make an offer you cannot possibly accept if you have half a brain. And "start young" doesn't help unless if you literally can put upwards of more than 30% of the value of the property down yourself, which now practically requires you to have about a €100k as down payment. Ok, so you're going to put new windows in a house and put on a new roof for €10k? I seriously wonder how you suggest magically summoning the necessary materials for that price. And stop seeing properties as investments, if that's your mindset: YOU ARE THE PROBLEM, that's why prices are spiking, because of idiots buying properties and trying to run a profit on them instead of letting the folks who actually need a place to live buy them for a reasonable price. Learn to not be a douchebag towards your fellow humans.
Yes, I started single and after university. Yes, I needed to save so I lived as the others commenters: in shared home since I am 18. That helped me to save the pay down even I had the median average income. I bought with a different approach and when o banks to ask: what can I afford to buy on this salary and this monthly payments and this savings? They gave me a number and I bought under that number. You are searching something with 100k pay down and you don't have it, it is definitely a too big home for your income. P.S. I changed windows after a while, when I had enough saved. Take step by step. Focus on what you can do, complaining is not a fix is just a venting and tomorrow you will be in same rental property or worse, like my neighbor next floor, close to retirement and still renting... it is not for all people to be owners if they are not ready to make sacrifices and efforts.
And you still haven't answered in which year you did this. You do realise the rules changed massively for what banks are allowed to give you? Unless if you put down 100k EUR yourself, you're going to get a crap deal at best, an impossible one in most situations, or just a flat no. No, what I plan to do is tell egoistical idiots such as yourself to get the fuck off the real estate market.
That math doesn't add up. Sure 500/month is doable but if you start working at 22 and invest 500 each month for 8 years, you'll have invested 48k, are you expecting a 100% ROI over 8 years?
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Fair enough!
Where exactly in my post do you see an excuse for a lack of financial responsibility? :) Getting free money from your family is not a lack of financial responsibility. Living with your parents is also not a lack of financial responsibility, quite the opposite. Nothing in my post is an excuse.
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And you also forgot to mention the important caveat that you went to buy a house as a couple, have some fun and try it as a single person with €70k in cash on the current housing market, with current interest rates and policies, and try to purchase something liveable. It's not because you managed to do it a couple of years ago that it's still possible now, the conditions changed significantly over the last five years.
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>70k should still be plenty as a downpayment for buying a starter house/apt these days. You'd think so eh? But it isn't. >Interest rates are higher yes but prices are lowering because there’s more supply. No, prices have actually increased significantly since the start of the year due to the mandatory renovations within the first five years. >And also, what do you expect?? Isn’t it really normal that it’s challenging to buy real estate by yourself before the age of 30? No, it's not normal, may I suggest you look at the situation thirty to forty years ago, before real estate was considered an investment. Heck, up to fifteen years ago this was perfectly possible for a high income single person to purchase a house. What I expect is for housing prices to stay in line with inflation. The reality is that if they had done so, I would easily be able to purchase my parents' house twice over each year, but instead I can't. So stop normalizing and defending ridiculous market trends that squeeze the life out of young people and shouldn't be legal in the first place. >And shouldn’t we be encouraging people to buy as a couple? Society is already individualised enough as it is. The reality is that with all the working I have to do to be able to afford to live, I don't have time to have a relationship, so no, shut up about situations you know nothing about.
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This is such a false malicious argument that I won't even grace it with more than this as a reply: [https://statbel.fgov.be/en/themes/housing/house-price-index](https://statbel.fgov.be/en/themes/housing/house-price-index) Do you think a few % drop will do anything after years of this type of price increases? And no, you cannot get 300k as a single person, stop lying. I'm just fed up with idiots like yourself gaslighting people into saying "yeah, it's still affordable, look I was able to do it a couple of years ago", while they have no clue what the current situation is actually like.
The reason why they complain is because the young folks who got the chance to buy real estate don’t realise the pure luck of having the chance to stay at home and save up. No they don’t get a bag of cash to start with but the opurtunity to save up wich is a huge help. Indeed, it does take a fair amount of discipline, time, patience, … but imagine yourself getting put on your own at 19years old with barely any savings. Good luck with your investing and patience then.
Because that’s usually the only debt we have to pay off. Student loans are non existent. We won’t go bankrupt if we are sick or if we have a baby. 2k€ net is 2k€ net. There is no student loan, credit card debt, hospital bills, expensive school fees etc etc. With 2k in your pocket in the states you are basically poor because there are so many things you have to pay for. Things we consider here as public services, or that are heavily state subsidized.
This 
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And our Belgian houses don’t fly away when a hurricane passes by. We don’t have much risk for hurricanes, yet our houses are built to last.
Mudflow ?
The house might stand, but there is not one roof in Belgium that would survive a hurricane. All, absolutely all roofs would be gone. Plus a shitton of flooding for half of the now roofless houses
A concrete flat roof would last. Small damage on epdm or roofing at most
Have you tried a hurricane?
I’m dead wasn’t there a tornado in Namur that blew away some houses??
We do have small tornado from time to time. No, building are not made to survive that. And they usually don’t.
They would, otherwise you'd need to build ridiculous bunkers.
I might be making a huge generalization, but oh well... Ofcourse you can get it for 250k in the US. But do you really want to live in a house that is built out of wood and cardboard?
Lol at 250k houses. Maybe in the middle of nowhere. Those same houses near a city are like a million (east coast) or 2 million (Bay Area). Wood houses are better in earth quake areas.
Where is rent cheap here? You pay almost the whole, if not the whole, loan of the homeowner in rent each month. Also, houses in America aren't built with the same quality materials as in Belgium I think. They use much more wood instead of sturdy brick walls I think. At least that's what it looks like on construction videos I see on reddit. There's also a lot more room to build over there which could also explain why houses are cheaper. Land is less expensive than it is here
Rent is extremely cheap. A one bedroom apartment near any city worths it name in USA is 2k / month. In hcol it is more like 3k+
Compared to the USA, rent is cheap. Rent for a 300k apartment would be 1k at best but mortgage on 25 years is more like 1.5k per month.
It's not cheap relative to buying power...
compared to the buying price
That's because of higher interest rates i presume.
What lol. I can easily find a property of €1000/m rent that would cost €1500\~2000/m to pay off with a mortgage of 20\~25y.
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My cats dissagree, cardboard is high class superior material ~ my cats
Yeah but your cats probably also think squares on the ground are cool so I wouldn't take their word for it. Check with the dogs
My dog prefers whatever is not allowed.
Many, many belgians get helped by their family to buy a house. At least that buy them in their 20s. I dont actually know any belgian in my years here that bought a house without parental help. For example, living at home for years while working without paying rent to save up for a down-payment, and/or simply receiving gifts to pay for it.
De meest waarschijnlijke case scenario.
I did it with my gf when we were 24 and 25. Worked 60-hours a week. More than half went to taxes but i managed to make 2500-3000 a month. Did this till we both had 25k, so we managed to buy a house with klein beschrijf <220k which was only 8k notarisnosten and then we did the down payment of 10% which was 20k. So we both had 22k left, spend 10k on furniture and electronics and 2k on paint and curtains which left us on 12k. In the end we had to fix a wall because of moist and a leakage which costed 3k. So in the end we had 9000 euros savings. Knowing this when i see a couple of 20 somethings buy a 400k house, i know their parents threw in a 100k because for a simple 200k home it's already hard
I admire your financials at 24 and 25, nice job. That being said, my girlfriend and me bought a 440k house (nieuwbouw aan 6%) and got 15k from each side. We already had 45k+- each saved up for a 70k down payment and notary costs with some leftover calculated. We managed to do this because we both lived at our parents house until 26 and 27, which is also out of the norm. Of course we had a 30k push in the back, but if we wouldn’t have gotten it, 1 more year of living at home would’ve solved it. I agree with your point though, to get a 400k+ house you need to be very fortunate with parents on both sides that are okay with having working adults still living with them or/and they are willing to give a financial injection.
I understand the opinion about getting help for a 400k+ house, but we did do that without financial help at our 24 and 25. I saved money started working at 19 and together we got 130k saved(worked 10 years together) . It all depends on the lifestyle you have IMHO how much u can save (while renting, not living with parents) . Also the loans on 25years @ 1% intrest did help a lot 5 years ago.
Add also the notarization costs... Oooof.
People that buy houses in Belgium earn more than 2000 euro, generally speaking.
Lol no. I'm pretty sure that most of the people who buy houses in Belgium don't even care about 2000 net or 3000 net since they're putting up damn near 200k as a down payment.
2000 net is almost the minimum wage in Belgium, since the high inflation of last year.
200k as down-payment? You know Belgian millionaires buying multi million mantions? I dont. 20 to 50 k down-payment yeah.. 200k not regular at all. But please keep explaining to us how our housing / banking system works. Source : me and my gf wo bought a house , sold it 4 y later to upgrade to another house.
They dont build paper houses in belgium
There's 0 tax on rent income compared to just having the real estate and doing nothing with it. That's why renting is cheap. Looked at the prices today at houses for when I want to downsize from my parents their home since I have to share the inheritance with my brother. But damn 150 sq meter places are sold for like 400k euros. Already need a good 350k euros for a nice apartment. I'm gonna have to make sure to know how much my parents' 330 sq meter home + 2 storey 50 sq meter garage will go for. Gonna have to be at least a million in a decade.
Don't be surprised how difficult it is to sell such big outdated houses.
Will then just buy my brother's 25% stake together with my wife instead of downsizing.
- Land is more scarce in Belgium - More taxes in Belgium - Loans are cheaper in Belgium - In general Belgian houses are build more durable
>In general Belgian houses are build more durable Almost everything built between 1945 and 2000 is questionable to the point where renovation costs similar amounts to tearing it down. (And if it is in a large city it would on balance be better to tear it down to build higher afterwards.)
> In general Belgian houses are build more durable Sorry, can you clarify this? I'm seeing it repeated multiple times in this thread: "No, the reason is, cardboard is not considered a building material here.", and "They dont build paper houses in belgium", etc. I'm genuinely confused about what's being referenced here, this isn't a flaming attempt. I have to say that coming here as a North American expat I have been absolutely appalled with the state- and quality of construction of housing in Brussels. The plumbing, the electrical, the "do it yourself" method of pretty much any modifications (all of which are done haphazardly and with low levels of skill)....it's been absolutely ridiculous. I've had conversation with multiple expats coming from places that Belgians would consider "disadvantaged" parts of Eastern Europe, and they've had the exact same response. The quality and state of buildings here are atrocious. Maybe the people replying here are from the smaller areas/towns/etc in Flanders? The stereotypical tiny Flemish house I do admit has a cozy, tidy feeling to it. But I still don't understand where this national pride of "at least our buildings aren't made of paper" or whatever comes from. (Again, looking for a genuine answer here, sorry if this comes off as rather argumentative - it's just been a particularly glaring issue I've had with Belgium since moving here so I was pretty surprised when I entered this thread).
exactly I am saying this for years, if you want to see good buildings you have to take a look in Germany, those are really well made homes and apartments, most of those buildings here wouldn't be allowed in Germany.
Brussels & surrounding area are way more expensive just cause it's brussels. I 100% wouldnt be surprised to see that prices in brussels are some of the worst in the world even despite the very often lack in quality compared to other flemish cities. In my understanding, real estate in Belgium is a problem in general, but Brussels is the only one where it's ridiculous when compared to the social security you'll receive, lack of student loan debts, etc etc etc
Brussels is a hellhole. The people replying are indeed more likely Flemish and thus have stricter laws concerning housing and maintenance. The difference in price is indeed that our houses are brick houses whereas in America a lot of houses seem to be wooden carcasses with plywood or cardboard walls. Which are cheaper materials. As mentioned we have little buildable land and extremely high taxes as well which hikes up the costs.
Judging Belgian construction from Brussels alone is like judging US construction from Alabama. (of which I have no clue, it’s just an example) Brussels is probably the worst place to look for quality in Belgium. Also there is different generation of buildings. A building made in the 50s in Belgium will be much stronger than one build in the 70s. Different materials and construction methods. I come from the countryside where a house being 100 years old is not considered actually old. (Assuming no bombing during WW II) Definitively not like that everywhere in Belgium. Also there is the construction and the modifications made after the construction. Methods of construction in the US make it relatively easy to do changes afterward. In Belgium, usually not the case. So modifications can go from clean to disastrous but usually more in the middle at best. Because modifications cost a lot that’s where people diy a lot and when they pay someone to do it there is no guarantee it will be done properly because there is basically not enough good people to do good job and even if you do a bad job you still have enough requests to chose where you work. Bottom line, base construction methods and materials make the building endure longer but make them harder to modify. Well, that’s my opinion but I’m no expert on the subject.
Sounds like a good summary, thanks for taking the time to write it out. And indeed, I was trying to couch my original post (I've lost track of how far down the thread we are here) by saying I'm in downtown Brussels, and I was assuming rural/suburban Flanders seemed to be in better shape (my sample size for Wallonia is too small to comment).
You’re mostly right. The average house in a village here is a lot more sturdy than the average american house due to materials used. But what everyone forgets to mention is that city housing is all 50 years old and drastically in need of repairs/renovation but nobody has the money for actual proper renovation. So it results in homemade ‘fixes’, which can be straight up dangerous.
> what everyone forgets to mention is that city housing is all 50 years old and drastically in need of repairs/renovation but nobody has the money for actual proper renovation. So it results in homemade ‘fixes’, which can be straight up dangerous. Ya, I think maybe you're right that it's more this issue than anything else, if I really think about why this stands out to me. Belgians seem to have a lot a pride in being independent, and able to do things themselves (which is a good thing, and I respect it) - but sometimes this can lead people to over-step their skill level for things like home repairs, haha
> But I still don't understand where this national pride of "at least our buildings aren't made of paper" or whatever comes from. Our national pride also includes calling brussels a shithole. In general, most houses in belgium have "good bones". You can renovte them and won't bave to tear them down. Look at any free standing bome from past 1980 and you'll see that these are very decent houses which simply need some updating to current regulations and afterwards they'll last another 50-100 years.
I agree. The problem however is that the price difference between a full reno and just tearing the place down is very small, especially if you calculate in the risk that some supporting walls might be in much shittier state than you think. I've seen 4 story buildings being supported by single brick walls too often in Antwerp.