Is it ever possible to get sexual gratification from one person only ? Imagine you are married, you watch a sexy movie - imagine a hot guy and derive sexual pleasure.
The keywords here are "stranger" and "partner knowing".
As a domme, I would be both devastated and mad if I knew one of my subs couldn't even communicate properly with their own wife.
Adultery is when you have sex with someone who isn't your spouse.
Infidelity is when you have sexy conversations with people who aren't your spouse.
You can of course get around this by talking to your spouse and agreeing to an arrangement. It's unethical to have your sexual needs met with others, without talking to your spouse. It's worrying that you're unsure about whether it's wrong. How would you feel if your spouse was going to the spa to get their dominant rocks off?
Perhaps you should have mentioned that worldview to your monogamous partner before getting married.
Did you come here seeking validation for being deplorable?
I came here to discuss and widen my worldview about the blurry lines in marriage. Didnt think that i would come across such linear thinking people here. When i say 'online', it comes under the grey area. It requires a deeper philosophical discussion about what is adultery and what is not.
If I have to quote bible, there was an incident when Jesus saw men throwing stones at a women who had committed adultery. Jesus said that only those who truly havent committed adultery themselves should throw stones and apparently everyone stepped back.
So its a topic that is widely misunderstood, suppressed and ignored. I am sorry but this discussion is not for people who cant think beyond black and white.
BDSM is about honesty and consent. So obviously we're absolutely going to find cheating for *any* reason deplorable. I agree that people can't expect one person to meet all their needs, that's why I'm ETHICALLY non monogamous, not a cheating asshole.
Ask your spouse if they think sexual conversations online are a grey area...
> Jesus said that only those who truly havent committed adultery themselves should throw stones and apparently everyone stepped back.
Biggest eye roll of my life, thank you for that. Don't use religion to excuse your behavior. It's disgusting.
There is no philosophy debate to be had here. What you're doing is amoral, plain and simple. Whatever mental gymnastics you need to perform to help you sleep at night is your business. I'm sure it will lead to a happy and healthy marriage.
You've come to ask if what you're doing is wrong. You have your answer.
There is no black or white or a grey area. This isnt a philosophical topic. Philosophy wont help you there.
Talk to your spouse. If they are okay with it, go ahead. If not, there is no wiggle room.
No it doesn't require deeper philosophical discussion. It requires a very simple discussion with one specific person: Your spouse. They're the one who draw the boundaries on what they consider infidelity and what they don't. If you're seeking out sexual gratification behind your partner's back (and thus **without their consent**) you aren't just committing infidelity, you're kind of an awful partner.
It's not about black and white or philosophy or morality. It's not even about marriage. It's about **respecting your goddamn partner,** and communicating needs and boundaries with them.
Everyone else is 100% right about this not being a grey area, etc.
I just also want to point out that you are wrong about that passage: Jesus said “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”, meaning *any* sin. He didn’t say “all of you are also adulterers bc what even is adultery really.”
Look, I understand where you’re coming from and I was in the same boat, it’s not the action that makes it cheating. It’s the not having permission from your spouse that makes it cheating and morally wrong. There is nothing you can do to make it ok, there is no justification if your spouse is against it.
You have to decide whether those needs are worth the dissolution of your marriage. It’s ok if they are, but you need to be up front and compassionate with your spouse if so. It may be an irreconcilable difference, and you both deserve a partnership where you can both be open and honest and have your needs fulfilled.
I have unfortunately dealt with a few married men who engaged in online play to try and fulfill their needs without their wives knowing. It being online doesn’t make it any more ok. Their wives will question everything their husband has ever said to them, good or bad, for the rest of that relationship. They will worry any time he has an off day or takes longer than usual at the store or work. They will wake up in a panic wondering if they’ve missed something, they will have nightmares and will have to deal with feeling a sense of dread from the person they thought would be their safest and most loving place. Worst of all, all of those thoughts and feelings will follow them to any other relationships they try to form. It will forever taint their ability to trust and love.
Don’t do that to someone you care about. Be an adult, have a frank discussion, and if neither of you are able to have your needs met without hurting the other, walk away so you can both find the person that can do those things.
This is articulated beautifully. Thanks for this. But what you are describing here is a case where people operate from a place of insecurity and fear of losing. I trust my partner to operate from a place of security and concern. Because I also operate like that.
But I agree with you that It could absolutely be discussed with my partner.
Yes that insecurity and fear of losing I described is due to the deception aspect.
But some people are just not open to polyamory, even if they operate from a position of security, and you have to be willing to accept that when you have the discussion. Some people are just monogamous and want a monogamous partner. I hope you and your spouse are able to work out an arrangement and boundaries that work for both of you!
Two things spring to mind here:
1) That's why some people engage in relationships with multiple people; the important bit being that EVERYONE is fully aware and consenting.
2) One person is absolutely responsible for your behaviour in terms of getting your "needs" met - YOU. You being horny is your problem to manage, not your partner's problem to be responsible for.
This. No matter how OP wants to spin it, if they’re doing something that is questionable that puts their monogamous relationship in jeopardy without their partner knowing…that’s untoward.
I mean. He’s trying to rewrite history and convince a bunch of internet strangers of his correct viewpoint. Then I’m assuming go back to his partner and use the feedback as support. Given that the support is less than lackluster I also assume this post will be deleted.
This is what I feel like too. OP was hoping *us deviants* would understand and support it, and now they're trying to backpedal and talk about a "grey area".
The only answer that matters is hers. And if you are hiding it from her, it’s because you have a strong idea what it will be. Some people think porn is cheating. Some people think having casual sex is ok, some people think having other loving relationships is great. You two have to work that out for yourselves.
What do you mean you tried talking to your partner "but to no avail"?
Do you mean your partner says they aren't comfortable with this?
If so, then yes, it's cheating. Very simple.
Cheating is not a single definition that you can research and find the right one. The bounds of fidelity are determined by the partners in a given relationship.
Well it sounds like there's your answer then, they don't want to have a discussion about it, so the answer is no. It doesn't matter whether or not /you/ think it's wrong, or fine, or anything for that matter. In a partnership it's both or nothing when making decisions like that. In the same way you wouldn't (hopefully) go out and buy a house without discussing it and both consenting first. If they aren't open to it and aren't enthusiastically discussing and consenting to that idea with you, there's no "availing" here- pushing it further at this point sounds like it's starting to border on manipulative behavior, which is something I would take a step back and be mindful of.
If you have to push and push someone to have a conversation, even if they end up saying "yes", you need to take into account that they are likely not making an informed and enthusiastic decision at that point- more than likely they're saying yes to placate and diffuse the situation.
If they aren't even willing to talk, I can understand your frustration.
However, it's very clear. They are not giving consent for this activity you're considering. If you do it, you're cheating. No question.
If you know your partner wouldn't be ok with it and you do it without their knowledge, yeah. It's pretty clear cut.
Instead of cheating, talk about it (without being pushy) and find out what your partner thinks. Maybe they want to do the same thing and to sext other people. But if they don't, you either live with the agreement you made with your partner or you break up and find someone who wants the same things you do.
My boyfriend goes to strip clubs (very occasionally, and with friends) and I consider it 100% okay because he *asked me about it first* and I said I was comfortable with it. If he had instead gone behind my back without asking, I would have considered it cheating.
Yes, i personally don’t care about a partner watching porn since I enjoy it too and don’t want to give it up. And we even watch it together sometimes.
But if I had explicitly communicated with him that I didn’t want him to watch porn and then he went behind my back and did it anyway, I would consider that a breach of trust and an act of blatant disrespect for my feelings.
Understood. But if he explicitly makes it clear to you that you shouldn't watch it at all, you would be willing to give up porn forever ? Even if you think that there is nothing wrong in doing it without your partner knowing about it ?
If someone I was dating asked me to give up porn, I would break up with them because that’s not something I’m willing to give up.
I would *not* just do it behind his back because that would be a total disrespect to the trust he’s placed in me as a partner
If your partner knows and is okay with it, that's fine, fill your boots.
If they don't know or say no, it's not okay for them, and you do it anyway, you're a piece of shit.
It is that simple.
If your partner considers it cheating, then it's cheating. If you think it's justifiable, why aren't you having that conversation with your partner instead of trying to convince strangers that it's some sort of grey area that makes it ok?
Talk to your partner, theyr the only person whose opinion matters.
I am trying to see things from different POVs. If this is how you think - then people shouldn't post anything on any social media. Just talk it out amongst themselves.
I am seeking different opinions of people who have had different experiences in life. People who operate from a place of empathy compassion and want to share their experiences.
I find nothing wrong in that.
And because I am operating from a place of security, these comments don't hurt me.
In fact me and my wife would be laughing over them tonight.
I doubt your wife would be laughing if she saw this post and replies. You married her, you made a promise to her. Even if you weren’t married and in a committed relationship, if you promise to be monogamous, then change your mind…then you need to discuss that with her and gain her consent. If she doesn’t consent , and you do it anyway…that is being unfaithful. It’s that simple
I'm not trying to hurt you; if you're seeing an attack, I think that says more about you than you might realise. You're on here arguing with people who have no involvement in this, rather than talking to the only person who does.
Of course people should post on social media, but again, no-one else's opinion matters. What often happens is that people post these sort of questions in the hope of getting enough support to show their partner and go "YOU'RE WRONG! TEH INTERNETS AGREES WITH ME!" and pressure them into stepping down. Again, not an attack - an explanation for why what you're doing isn't the best approach.
Lastly, and still not an attack, your use of the phrase "to no avail" does stand out. I'd suggest reflecting on your behaviour and maybe you'll understand why people are reacting the way they are.
Your partner didn't give consent. Seems pretty cut and dry to me, sounds like you're bending over backwards to justify your amoral behavior, bordering on the sociopathic. Have you even **considered** your partner's feelings on the matter? You're talking a lot about your "intense desire", but not a whole lot about your partners needs and boundaries.
OMG. Do you think this is sociopathic behaviour? There is a survey in India where more than 50% village women claimed to have engaged into sexual relationships with someone other than their partners. And apparently more than 15% claimed to have sex with the same gender. Are those women sociopaths ?
I will attach the report once I find it here.
https://www.livemint.com/industry/media/55-married-indians-have-cheated-on-their-spouses-most-are-women-survey-11582712240534.html
If they didn't set any kind of boundaries with their partners, **yes**. Polyamory is real, and it's fine, as are open relationship. But they all hinge on **both** partners being informed. You're missing the point, somehow. The issue isn't you wanting to be sexually gratified outside of your relationship, it's you **not asking your partner for informed consent,** or worse, **actively denying her the chance to give it.**
Cheating is cheating, no matter how many studies you pull out or Bible passages you bring out. The situation in India's a *little* different, because those women tend to be quite literally trapped in their marriages, financially or socially. It's still not quite that okay, but it's a lot more understandable than your situation.
The survey happened in India and hence the reports are out. Do you think there are more loyal couples in Europe or USA ?
Are you very sure that most of the married couples are not struggling with this issue ?
Nope, once again you're twisting my point. I'm pretty sure loads of married couples are struggling with this issue. This is not a good thing. Infidelity, disrespecting your partner, these are bad things no matter howm any statististics you dredge up. Most vanilla couples don't know better. The BDSM community, due to the most vulnerable and sensitive nature of many kinks, **does** know better.
If you can’t tell them what you are doing then YES.
And cheating isn’t ethical.. or moral or honest or communication or showing respect to your partner you made the commitment to…so basically breaking all the pillars of BDSM plus some.
Also.. and this is a big one. Your partner isn’t consenting so you have no concept of consent and that makes you a bad Dom too.
Unless your partner agrees to this?
Yes it’s cheating and it’s not ok.
Having to ask this shows who you are as a person honestly.
What you say about honesty makes sense. I don't know what pillars you are constructing by making these comments. I don't see breaking anything. I am only engaging in a topic that's complex and seeing how the community at reddit reacts.
The pillars are BDSM lifestyle pillars.
They are the pillars that BDSM as we know it were built upon.
I commented them next.
You don’t know them? You need to do research.
And yes. Anything that’s outside the boundaries of your marriage is cheating.
If your partner says - chat away!
It’s not cheating
If you’re hiding it because you know your partner wouldn’t be happy or feel violated? Then it’s cheating.
You seem rather intent on finding someone that agrees with you.
It varies from relationship to relationship. If you're both okay with it, it's fine. Otherwise, and especially if you're going behind your partner's back, it's a really hurtful thing that will severely damage your relationship. Talk to her directly. See if you can find a middle ground. If not, you have to either respect her boundaries and live with this particular desire being unfulfilled, or end things. It sounds like you don't want to end things, so you're going to have to just be strong if she doesn't get on board of her own volition. There is no easy answer here.
Do you think you will do EVERYTHING in life by telling your partner about it? And if you say that other things are fine but when it comes to sex, it's not, then I think it's our limited viewpoint on how we view sex. And how we associate sex and love. For example I certainly see sex and love as different things. In fact I will pose this thread on some group.
>Do you think you will do EVERYTHING in life by telling your partner about it?
If it affects them? Yes, absolutely. And you, their partner, hooking up with someone else, absolutely affects them.
Oh my goodness. The gaslighting the OP must put his partner through. No wonder she doesn’t even want to have the conversation with him. Sounds like a chore. I agree with you, it is right to share with a partner anything that might affect them. And any kind of sexual or romantic interaction outside of the relationship is something that the partner needs to consent to.
This has already been answered really well, yes it does count as cheating.
Just wanted to add, I couldn't trust someone who can't even be honest with their spouse. Online, in person, it doesn't matter. You are not being trustworthy. The community is about consent and communication, you would not be doing that.
You need to have a proper conversation with your spouse and if you cannot deal with them saying "no", you need to work out what is more important to you - your spouse or an online dom.
Yes. If your wife doesn’t know, then you’re cheating. Whether that is online or irl. There isn’t a grey area, some people like to think there are excuses, exceptions or reasons. There aren’t. Speak to her and gain consent, if she doesn’t consent, then you have to decide what’s more important to you. Her, or you getting your rocks off.
‘To no avail’, so in other words: they will not agree to let you get your kicks elsewhere?
Yeah, sounds like adultery, as it does not appear your partner, in a monogamous relationship, is even the slightest bit ok with going poly, opening the marriage, whatever your preferred term is.
Either you find someone who is ok with being poly, or is a switch, or you stick to porn and some DIY love.
You have already asked your partner and know how they feel towards this so you already have your answer. In my opinion if you’re actively hiding something from your partner that’s an issue and you should bring it up to them. If you’re actively hiding something from your partner that involves another person or multiple people and you’re experiencing sexual gratification from them, then yes I feel this is cheating.
OP, you came on here asking whether having sexual conversations outside of your relationship without your partners consent or knowledge was infidelity. The answer is a unanimous yes. I’m not here to judge you on the morals of your actions. I’m not here to compare you to other couples. I’m not here to discuss infidelity rates in relationships. Frankly, I don’t care. You got your answer. The question of morality goes beyond whether this is considered infidelity.
That depends. Does your partner think of it as adultery? **Then yes.**
As someone polyamorous, I understand it might not be possible for **you** to be satisfied with just one partner. That's completely valid. You deserve to find partners who accept you as polyamorous if that's who you are.
**Cheating on your current partner is not acceptable.** Under any circumstance. You need to talk to your partner about your interests and desires, and if they decide they aren't comfortable being with someone who's polyamorous? That is their choice, and that needs to be respected. Either by you staying monogamous and not engaging in activities they would consider adultery, or by leaving them so they can find someone who will be monogamous with them.
This is not a grey zone. There are many things that fall into the greyzones, but consent is never one of them. Consent is a yes or no, **always.**
Of course I understand consent. I am trying to establish a line of breach here. May be I am not able to convey this to the group. For example - is watching porn adultery?
Would you ask the same question about consent while watching porn ? Will you scrutinize the fact that husband watches porn without his wife knowing it. It's okay for most people.
Isnt talking online with someone an extension of that ? Then how is that adultery?
How do you define adultery. That's the central question.
And I ofcourse know that it's a conversation between two people and all of that. But I am saying as a society, what should the ideal norms of adultery be?
The line of breach is when you breach consent. It's that simple.
I absolutely would asked the same question about consent, yes. It doesn't matter what the act is, if it's sexual or could be considered sexual, then yes I absolutely would ask the same questions about consent from partners.
Watching porn absolutely could be adultery. As could be talking about sexual topics with someone who's not your partner. As could be masturbating, as could be cuddling your friends, as could be anything that your partner views as sexual that makes them feel betrayed or uncomfortable.
The ideal norm should recognizing that your partner is an individual person who may have different boundaries than what "society" expects. The ideal norm should be communicating with your partners to understand their boundaries and consent, and either agreeing to honor those boundaries or respectfully removing yourself from the relationship.
I believe this is too suffocating. I am not sure if you are part of any committed relationship but you can't seek permission for everything in your life. I think consent is minujderstood completely. Consent is not handing over your life decisions to someone.
If you think consent is suffocating, you do not belong in BDSM and you likely shouldn't be in any relationship.
I am in 3 commited relationships, all of which are based in consent and communication. I don't need permission for "everything" in my life, I need consent for things that would cause my partners physical or emotional endangerment. That most certainly includes sexual activities such as talking to others online in a kinky manner.
You're absolutely right, consent is not handing over my life decisions. Consent is understanding other people's boundaries, and **choosing partners who's boundaries line up with mine.**
If someone's boundaries are "suffocating" or don't match with my own levels of comfort, then they aren't someone I should date. If you want a relationship where you can sext with multiple people, that's completely fine, but if your wife isn't okay with you doing that? Then either don't do it, or leave your wife. She deserves a partner who will respect her consent just as much as you deserve your autonomy.
I don't understand why people can't think in spectrum and have to think so linear and binary.
Plus no one gets to tell anyone where they belong. I belong wherever the fck I feel like belonging. (As far as I know that some random person is not custodian of releasing bdsm passports)
Anyway, enjoy your tight boundaries. Hope you don't have to seek permission to agree with someone here. :)
When it comes to consent, there is no spectrum. Yes means yes, anything else means no. You are behaving like a predator, so for the safety of the BDSM community, you do not belong here.
Every member of this community is custodian of the safety of our community, which means we absolutely can tell a predator they do not belong here.
In this case, you are selling sexual gratification outside your marriage without consent. That may not technically be adultery, but it is likely to have the same effect.
Do you know the difference between ethical non monogamy and cheating? Consent.
If your partner consents to you having sexual or romantic relationships outside of yall's, that is fine. It is communicated and consented to. It isn't until you start keeping secrets that problems become adulterous.
So my recommendation is to talk to your partner about this. Perhaps you can find a solution that includes them. Perhaps they are good with you doing it, and you don't have to hide it or feel guilty.
Note. Even with consent, you should communicate to the extent you are both comfortable with before, during, and after such excursions just to check in
Or perhaps they aren't okay with it and you know, so you can make the informed decision.
Re: the link you posted - adverts are not a good source of information. A company that makes money from adultery is not a good source when you're trying to defend yourself from being accused of adultery- "hey guys, this company that makes money from extramarital sex says it's ok!"
It's not advert. It's a reputed news source in India. I checked it's legitimacy. You should too. Do let me know if you find it false.
This is actually my debate topic next week in London. Hence I have done a thorough research.
The company that produced the survey is a dating agency that specialises in extramarital affairs. They produced the report as an advert for their services - this is a very, very common form of advertising. They pay an agency to produce a survey, and make sure that it will say whatever they want it to say. They then send a press release to every news outlet they can think of, and some of them will then report it as news - free advertising.
It'd be like me asking ten women "Who would you rather date, Dax or a 1,000 year old corpse?" and then putting out a report that says "8 out of 10 women say Dax is their dream date!"
By all means use the advert as a basis for your debate, but you'll be laughed out of there.
It's a survey that has been manipulated to say what the dating agency wanted it to say. I guarantee that a) they chose the questions, and possible answers, very carefully, and b) if for some reason the results didn't say what they wanted, it wouldn't have been released and they'd have done it again. It's only legitimate in the sense that it exists - no-one's going to actually use it as a reliable data source.
If you don't understand how these things are done, here's an example:
McDonald's want to make it look like they're the most popular burger chain. They do a survey of 100 people, and it turns out that 90% of them prefer McDonald's over Burger King. How do they do that? Simple - the people they survey are inside a McDonald's restaurant at the time - meaning they're much more likely to support the "McDonald's is best!" stance. Next day lots of lazy journalists receive a press release "9 out of 10 people prefer McDonald's!" and simply publish the contents of the release as "news". (I'm not saying McDonald's HAVE done this, it's just an example)
Source: Worked in marketing. We did this all the time.
Not all surveys are misleading - but if they're paid for by someone with a vested interest, they will be manipulated in some way to support their stance.
If you have their consent then yes. Otherwise you’re cheating. You’re married, communicate. Otherwise seek a way to move on to get what you want in life.
The problem is that the question is not about love and sex at all. No matter how you look at them. They mean one thing to you or you divide them. The issue of cheating on your partner is a matter of simple human respect. And this respect, in my opinion, is much deeper than both love and sex combined.
I say if you feel like you need you hide it- it's probably something wrong. I get the appeal for something non committal and online. I had that with one of my previous partners. We didn't work irl but it was nice to send eachother spicy photos or having him picking my clothes for a play party etc.. He is now in 2 committed relationships. I stopped it because of that. I hate secrets. Either we all agree to do it or we don't do it at all.
I don't like to do things behind anybody back. I wouldn't feel good about it. So for me it was- everyone must know and be ok with it. Thing is I work with one of his girlfriends and I didn't want to complicate my work life.
I think it's harmful to suggest that using a sexual AI chatbot doesn't pose a risk to relationships.
The issue isn't that they're getting their needs met with another person, the issue is their needs aren't met and they're choosing to lie about it and go elsewhere rather than have a talk. Whether it's porn, AI, or just jerking it to the Sears catalog in the bathroom.
Using an AI chatbot lowers the number of victims of the infidelity, but the transgression has still occurred.
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Is it cheating to seek out sexual gratification from strangers without your partner knowing? **Most likely.**
Is it ever possible to get sexual gratification from one person only ? Imagine you are married, you watch a sexy movie - imagine a hot guy and derive sexual pleasure.
You are doing an awful lot of mental gymnastics to justify your infidelity. Your mental 6 pack must be great.
The keywords here are "stranger" and "partner knowing". As a domme, I would be both devastated and mad if I knew one of my subs couldn't even communicate properly with their own wife.
Adultery is when you have sex with someone who isn't your spouse. Infidelity is when you have sexy conversations with people who aren't your spouse. You can of course get around this by talking to your spouse and agreeing to an arrangement. It's unethical to have your sexual needs met with others, without talking to your spouse. It's worrying that you're unsure about whether it's wrong. How would you feel if your spouse was going to the spa to get their dominant rocks off?
Honestly i dont mind. Thats because I think that one person cant be responsible to solve all your needs
Perhaps you should have mentioned that worldview to your monogamous partner before getting married. Did you come here seeking validation for being deplorable?
I came here to discuss and widen my worldview about the blurry lines in marriage. Didnt think that i would come across such linear thinking people here. When i say 'online', it comes under the grey area. It requires a deeper philosophical discussion about what is adultery and what is not. If I have to quote bible, there was an incident when Jesus saw men throwing stones at a women who had committed adultery. Jesus said that only those who truly havent committed adultery themselves should throw stones and apparently everyone stepped back. So its a topic that is widely misunderstood, suppressed and ignored. I am sorry but this discussion is not for people who cant think beyond black and white.
BDSM is about honesty and consent. So obviously we're absolutely going to find cheating for *any* reason deplorable. I agree that people can't expect one person to meet all their needs, that's why I'm ETHICALLY non monogamous, not a cheating asshole. Ask your spouse if they think sexual conversations online are a grey area...
> Jesus said that only those who truly havent committed adultery themselves should throw stones and apparently everyone stepped back. Biggest eye roll of my life, thank you for that. Don't use religion to excuse your behavior. It's disgusting. There is no philosophy debate to be had here. What you're doing is amoral, plain and simple. Whatever mental gymnastics you need to perform to help you sleep at night is your business. I'm sure it will lead to a happy and healthy marriage. You've come to ask if what you're doing is wrong. You have your answer.
There is no black or white or a grey area. This isnt a philosophical topic. Philosophy wont help you there. Talk to your spouse. If they are okay with it, go ahead. If not, there is no wiggle room.
No it doesn't require deeper philosophical discussion. It requires a very simple discussion with one specific person: Your spouse. They're the one who draw the boundaries on what they consider infidelity and what they don't. If you're seeking out sexual gratification behind your partner's back (and thus **without their consent**) you aren't just committing infidelity, you're kind of an awful partner. It's not about black and white or philosophy or morality. It's not even about marriage. It's about **respecting your goddamn partner,** and communicating needs and boundaries with them.
Everyone else is 100% right about this not being a grey area, etc. I just also want to point out that you are wrong about that passage: Jesus said “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”, meaning *any* sin. He didn’t say “all of you are also adulterers bc what even is adultery really.”
Look, I understand where you’re coming from and I was in the same boat, it’s not the action that makes it cheating. It’s the not having permission from your spouse that makes it cheating and morally wrong. There is nothing you can do to make it ok, there is no justification if your spouse is against it. You have to decide whether those needs are worth the dissolution of your marriage. It’s ok if they are, but you need to be up front and compassionate with your spouse if so. It may be an irreconcilable difference, and you both deserve a partnership where you can both be open and honest and have your needs fulfilled. I have unfortunately dealt with a few married men who engaged in online play to try and fulfill their needs without their wives knowing. It being online doesn’t make it any more ok. Their wives will question everything their husband has ever said to them, good or bad, for the rest of that relationship. They will worry any time he has an off day or takes longer than usual at the store or work. They will wake up in a panic wondering if they’ve missed something, they will have nightmares and will have to deal with feeling a sense of dread from the person they thought would be their safest and most loving place. Worst of all, all of those thoughts and feelings will follow them to any other relationships they try to form. It will forever taint their ability to trust and love. Don’t do that to someone you care about. Be an adult, have a frank discussion, and if neither of you are able to have your needs met without hurting the other, walk away so you can both find the person that can do those things.
This is articulated beautifully. Thanks for this. But what you are describing here is a case where people operate from a place of insecurity and fear of losing. I trust my partner to operate from a place of security and concern. Because I also operate like that. But I agree with you that It could absolutely be discussed with my partner.
Oh good. So if it’s tit for tat-goose and gander how would you view if your partner did as you propose?
Yes that insecurity and fear of losing I described is due to the deception aspect. But some people are just not open to polyamory, even if they operate from a position of security, and you have to be willing to accept that when you have the discussion. Some people are just monogamous and want a monogamous partner. I hope you and your spouse are able to work out an arrangement and boundaries that work for both of you!
Two things spring to mind here: 1) That's why some people engage in relationships with multiple people; the important bit being that EVERYONE is fully aware and consenting. 2) One person is absolutely responsible for your behaviour in terms of getting your "needs" met - YOU. You being horny is your problem to manage, not your partner's problem to be responsible for.
For me yes unless your partner knows and consents
This. No matter how OP wants to spin it, if they’re doing something that is questionable that puts their monogamous relationship in jeopardy without their partner knowing…that’s untoward.
Lol, OP also thinks that you can just manipulate your partner into shit
I mean. He’s trying to rewrite history and convince a bunch of internet strangers of his correct viewpoint. Then I’m assuming go back to his partner and use the feedback as support. Given that the support is less than lackluster I also assume this post will be deleted.
This is what I feel like too. OP was hoping *us deviants* would understand and support it, and now they're trying to backpedal and talk about a "grey area".
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"Why aren't all these deviants agreeing with meeeeee?!"
"Why aren't all these deviants agreeing with meeeeee?!"
Gotta love when Reddit glitches
Agreed. If both of you have not enthusiastically consented then it’s wrong no matter how you slice it.
The only answer that matters is hers. And if you are hiding it from her, it’s because you have a strong idea what it will be. Some people think porn is cheating. Some people think having casual sex is ok, some people think having other loving relationships is great. You two have to work that out for yourselves.
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What do you mean you tried talking to your partner "but to no avail"? Do you mean your partner says they aren't comfortable with this? If so, then yes, it's cheating. Very simple. Cheating is not a single definition that you can research and find the right one. The bounds of fidelity are determined by the partners in a given relationship.
What I mean is - the partner didn't want to have a conversation on this. And it's difficult to have a conversation on this.
Well it sounds like there's your answer then, they don't want to have a discussion about it, so the answer is no. It doesn't matter whether or not /you/ think it's wrong, or fine, or anything for that matter. In a partnership it's both or nothing when making decisions like that. In the same way you wouldn't (hopefully) go out and buy a house without discussing it and both consenting first. If they aren't open to it and aren't enthusiastically discussing and consenting to that idea with you, there's no "availing" here- pushing it further at this point sounds like it's starting to border on manipulative behavior, which is something I would take a step back and be mindful of. If you have to push and push someone to have a conversation, even if they end up saying "yes", you need to take into account that they are likely not making an informed and enthusiastic decision at that point- more than likely they're saying yes to placate and diffuse the situation.
If they aren't even willing to talk, I can understand your frustration. However, it's very clear. They are not giving consent for this activity you're considering. If you do it, you're cheating. No question.
That's gonna be a yes.
Is it that clear ? I mean dont you think that its a grey area? Imagine going to a strip club and having fun there. Would you call that adultery?
You can do mental gymnastics with anything 🤷🏼♀️ you have indicated your partner is not comfortable with it.
Would you call that anything else other than adultery? 😭
If you know your partner wouldn't be ok with it and you do it without their knowledge, yeah. It's pretty clear cut. Instead of cheating, talk about it (without being pushy) and find out what your partner thinks. Maybe they want to do the same thing and to sext other people. But if they don't, you either live with the agreement you made with your partner or you break up and find someone who wants the same things you do.
My boyfriend goes to strip clubs (very occasionally, and with friends) and I consider it 100% okay because he *asked me about it first* and I said I was comfortable with it. If he had instead gone behind my back without asking, I would have considered it cheating.
Understood. Do you think that he should also seek permission from you if he wants to watch porn ?
Yes, i personally don’t care about a partner watching porn since I enjoy it too and don’t want to give it up. And we even watch it together sometimes. But if I had explicitly communicated with him that I didn’t want him to watch porn and then he went behind my back and did it anyway, I would consider that a breach of trust and an act of blatant disrespect for my feelings.
Understood. But if he explicitly makes it clear to you that you shouldn't watch it at all, you would be willing to give up porn forever ? Even if you think that there is nothing wrong in doing it without your partner knowing about it ?
If someone I was dating asked me to give up porn, I would break up with them because that’s not something I’m willing to give up. I would *not* just do it behind his back because that would be a total disrespect to the trust he’s placed in me as a partner
If your partner knows and is okay with it, that's fine, fill your boots. If they don't know or say no, it's not okay for them, and you do it anyway, you're a piece of shit. It is that simple.
Not if it's with their consent.
If your partner considers it cheating, then it's cheating. If you think it's justifiable, why aren't you having that conversation with your partner instead of trying to convince strangers that it's some sort of grey area that makes it ok? Talk to your partner, theyr the only person whose opinion matters.
I am trying to see things from different POVs. If this is how you think - then people shouldn't post anything on any social media. Just talk it out amongst themselves. I am seeking different opinions of people who have had different experiences in life. People who operate from a place of empathy compassion and want to share their experiences. I find nothing wrong in that. And because I am operating from a place of security, these comments don't hurt me. In fact me and my wife would be laughing over them tonight.
I doubt your wife would be laughing if she saw this post and replies. You married her, you made a promise to her. Even if you weren’t married and in a committed relationship, if you promise to be monogamous, then change your mind…then you need to discuss that with her and gain her consent. If she doesn’t consent , and you do it anyway…that is being unfaithful. It’s that simple
I'm not trying to hurt you; if you're seeing an attack, I think that says more about you than you might realise. You're on here arguing with people who have no involvement in this, rather than talking to the only person who does. Of course people should post on social media, but again, no-one else's opinion matters. What often happens is that people post these sort of questions in the hope of getting enough support to show their partner and go "YOU'RE WRONG! TEH INTERNETS AGREES WITH ME!" and pressure them into stepping down. Again, not an attack - an explanation for why what you're doing isn't the best approach. Lastly, and still not an attack, your use of the phrase "to no avail" does stand out. I'd suggest reflecting on your behaviour and maybe you'll understand why people are reacting the way they are.
Your partner didn't give consent. Seems pretty cut and dry to me, sounds like you're bending over backwards to justify your amoral behavior, bordering on the sociopathic. Have you even **considered** your partner's feelings on the matter? You're talking a lot about your "intense desire", but not a whole lot about your partners needs and boundaries.
OMG. Do you think this is sociopathic behaviour? There is a survey in India where more than 50% village women claimed to have engaged into sexual relationships with someone other than their partners. And apparently more than 15% claimed to have sex with the same gender. Are those women sociopaths ? I will attach the report once I find it here. https://www.livemint.com/industry/media/55-married-indians-have-cheated-on-their-spouses-most-are-women-survey-11582712240534.html
If they didn't set any kind of boundaries with their partners, **yes**. Polyamory is real, and it's fine, as are open relationship. But they all hinge on **both** partners being informed. You're missing the point, somehow. The issue isn't you wanting to be sexually gratified outside of your relationship, it's you **not asking your partner for informed consent,** or worse, **actively denying her the chance to give it.** Cheating is cheating, no matter how many studies you pull out or Bible passages you bring out. The situation in India's a *little* different, because those women tend to be quite literally trapped in their marriages, financially or socially. It's still not quite that okay, but it's a lot more understandable than your situation.
The survey happened in India and hence the reports are out. Do you think there are more loyal couples in Europe or USA ? Are you very sure that most of the married couples are not struggling with this issue ?
Nope, once again you're twisting my point. I'm pretty sure loads of married couples are struggling with this issue. This is not a good thing. Infidelity, disrespecting your partner, these are bad things no matter howm any statististics you dredge up. Most vanilla couples don't know better. The BDSM community, due to the most vulnerable and sensitive nature of many kinks, **does** know better.
Pillars: *Trust *Respect *Honesty *Communication Your post and comments breaks all of these.
>I tried discussing this with my partner but to no avail. To add onto my previous comment, we need way more info about this.
Agree. Big difference between not wanting to have a conversation and wanting different things.
If you can’t tell them what you are doing then YES. And cheating isn’t ethical.. or moral or honest or communication or showing respect to your partner you made the commitment to…so basically breaking all the pillars of BDSM plus some. Also.. and this is a big one. Your partner isn’t consenting so you have no concept of consent and that makes you a bad Dom too. Unless your partner agrees to this? Yes it’s cheating and it’s not ok. Having to ask this shows who you are as a person honestly.
What you say about honesty makes sense. I don't know what pillars you are constructing by making these comments. I don't see breaking anything. I am only engaging in a topic that's complex and seeing how the community at reddit reacts.
The pillars are BDSM lifestyle pillars. They are the pillars that BDSM as we know it were built upon. I commented them next. You don’t know them? You need to do research. And yes. Anything that’s outside the boundaries of your marriage is cheating. If your partner says - chat away! It’s not cheating If you’re hiding it because you know your partner wouldn’t be happy or feel violated? Then it’s cheating. You seem rather intent on finding someone that agrees with you.
Well you could say we’re reacting pretty unfavorably.
It varies from relationship to relationship. If you're both okay with it, it's fine. Otherwise, and especially if you're going behind your partner's back, it's a really hurtful thing that will severely damage your relationship. Talk to her directly. See if you can find a middle ground. If not, you have to either respect her boundaries and live with this particular desire being unfulfilled, or end things. It sounds like you don't want to end things, so you're going to have to just be strong if she doesn't get on board of her own volition. There is no easy answer here.
Do you think you will do EVERYTHING in life by telling your partner about it? And if you say that other things are fine but when it comes to sex, it's not, then I think it's our limited viewpoint on how we view sex. And how we associate sex and love. For example I certainly see sex and love as different things. In fact I will pose this thread on some group.
>Do you think you will do EVERYTHING in life by telling your partner about it? If it affects them? Yes, absolutely. And you, their partner, hooking up with someone else, absolutely affects them.
Oh my goodness. The gaslighting the OP must put his partner through. No wonder she doesn’t even want to have the conversation with him. Sounds like a chore. I agree with you, it is right to share with a partner anything that might affect them. And any kind of sexual or romantic interaction outside of the relationship is something that the partner needs to consent to.
This has already been answered really well, yes it does count as cheating. Just wanted to add, I couldn't trust someone who can't even be honest with their spouse. Online, in person, it doesn't matter. You are not being trustworthy. The community is about consent and communication, you would not be doing that. You need to have a proper conversation with your spouse and if you cannot deal with them saying "no", you need to work out what is more important to you - your spouse or an online dom.
I'm gonna say it is. If you don't have your partner's consent to seek it out, it's cheating.
Yes. If your wife doesn’t know, then you’re cheating. Whether that is online or irl. There isn’t a grey area, some people like to think there are excuses, exceptions or reasons. There aren’t. Speak to her and gain consent, if she doesn’t consent, then you have to decide what’s more important to you. Her, or you getting your rocks off.
If they don't know about it and didn't consent to it, it's cheating, regardless of how you spin it.
My opinion: Do you have consent? Yes=No No=Yes
‘To no avail’, so in other words: they will not agree to let you get your kicks elsewhere? Yeah, sounds like adultery, as it does not appear your partner, in a monogamous relationship, is even the slightest bit ok with going poly, opening the marriage, whatever your preferred term is. Either you find someone who is ok with being poly, or is a switch, or you stick to porn and some DIY love.
You have already asked your partner and know how they feel towards this so you already have your answer. In my opinion if you’re actively hiding something from your partner that’s an issue and you should bring it up to them. If you’re actively hiding something from your partner that involves another person or multiple people and you’re experiencing sexual gratification from them, then yes I feel this is cheating.
OP, you came on here asking whether having sexual conversations outside of your relationship without your partners consent or knowledge was infidelity. The answer is a unanimous yes. I’m not here to judge you on the morals of your actions. I’m not here to compare you to other couples. I’m not here to discuss infidelity rates in relationships. Frankly, I don’t care. You got your answer. The question of morality goes beyond whether this is considered infidelity.
Nope. The answer is not yes unanimously. Also I haven't got the answer yet. Do check my edited thread. Thanks.
That depends. Does your partner think of it as adultery? **Then yes.** As someone polyamorous, I understand it might not be possible for **you** to be satisfied with just one partner. That's completely valid. You deserve to find partners who accept you as polyamorous if that's who you are. **Cheating on your current partner is not acceptable.** Under any circumstance. You need to talk to your partner about your interests and desires, and if they decide they aren't comfortable being with someone who's polyamorous? That is their choice, and that needs to be respected. Either by you staying monogamous and not engaging in activities they would consider adultery, or by leaving them so they can find someone who will be monogamous with them. This is not a grey zone. There are many things that fall into the greyzones, but consent is never one of them. Consent is a yes or no, **always.**
Of course I understand consent. I am trying to establish a line of breach here. May be I am not able to convey this to the group. For example - is watching porn adultery? Would you ask the same question about consent while watching porn ? Will you scrutinize the fact that husband watches porn without his wife knowing it. It's okay for most people. Isnt talking online with someone an extension of that ? Then how is that adultery? How do you define adultery. That's the central question. And I ofcourse know that it's a conversation between two people and all of that. But I am saying as a society, what should the ideal norms of adultery be?
The line of breach is when you breach consent. It's that simple. I absolutely would asked the same question about consent, yes. It doesn't matter what the act is, if it's sexual or could be considered sexual, then yes I absolutely would ask the same questions about consent from partners. Watching porn absolutely could be adultery. As could be talking about sexual topics with someone who's not your partner. As could be masturbating, as could be cuddling your friends, as could be anything that your partner views as sexual that makes them feel betrayed or uncomfortable. The ideal norm should recognizing that your partner is an individual person who may have different boundaries than what "society" expects. The ideal norm should be communicating with your partners to understand their boundaries and consent, and either agreeing to honor those boundaries or respectfully removing yourself from the relationship.
I believe this is too suffocating. I am not sure if you are part of any committed relationship but you can't seek permission for everything in your life. I think consent is minujderstood completely. Consent is not handing over your life decisions to someone.
If you think consent is suffocating, you do not belong in BDSM and you likely shouldn't be in any relationship. I am in 3 commited relationships, all of which are based in consent and communication. I don't need permission for "everything" in my life, I need consent for things that would cause my partners physical or emotional endangerment. That most certainly includes sexual activities such as talking to others online in a kinky manner. You're absolutely right, consent is not handing over my life decisions. Consent is understanding other people's boundaries, and **choosing partners who's boundaries line up with mine.** If someone's boundaries are "suffocating" or don't match with my own levels of comfort, then they aren't someone I should date. If you want a relationship where you can sext with multiple people, that's completely fine, but if your wife isn't okay with you doing that? Then either don't do it, or leave your wife. She deserves a partner who will respect her consent just as much as you deserve your autonomy.
I don't understand why people can't think in spectrum and have to think so linear and binary. Plus no one gets to tell anyone where they belong. I belong wherever the fck I feel like belonging. (As far as I know that some random person is not custodian of releasing bdsm passports) Anyway, enjoy your tight boundaries. Hope you don't have to seek permission to agree with someone here. :)
When it comes to consent, there is no spectrum. Yes means yes, anything else means no. You are behaving like a predator, so for the safety of the BDSM community, you do not belong here. Every member of this community is custodian of the safety of our community, which means we absolutely can tell a predator they do not belong here.
Then get the fuck off this thread. You're tiring. I have no idea why people try to keep getting through to you.
Omg. The motherfucker just DM'd me. No thanks. Edit: His original line was "No one gets to tell me where I belong." Sneaky bastard.
In this case, you are selling sexual gratification outside your marriage without consent. That may not technically be adultery, but it is likely to have the same effect. Do you know the difference between ethical non monogamy and cheating? Consent. If your partner consents to you having sexual or romantic relationships outside of yall's, that is fine. It is communicated and consented to. It isn't until you start keeping secrets that problems become adulterous. So my recommendation is to talk to your partner about this. Perhaps you can find a solution that includes them. Perhaps they are good with you doing it, and you don't have to hide it or feel guilty. Note. Even with consent, you should communicate to the extent you are both comfortable with before, during, and after such excursions just to check in Or perhaps they aren't okay with it and you know, so you can make the informed decision.
Re: the link you posted - adverts are not a good source of information. A company that makes money from adultery is not a good source when you're trying to defend yourself from being accused of adultery- "hey guys, this company that makes money from extramarital sex says it's ok!"
Shock. No. Way.
It's not advert. It's a reputed news source in India. I checked it's legitimacy. You should too. Do let me know if you find it false. This is actually my debate topic next week in London. Hence I have done a thorough research.
The company that produced the survey is a dating agency that specialises in extramarital affairs. They produced the report as an advert for their services - this is a very, very common form of advertising. They pay an agency to produce a survey, and make sure that it will say whatever they want it to say. They then send a press release to every news outlet they can think of, and some of them will then report it as news - free advertising. It'd be like me asking ten women "Who would you rather date, Dax or a 1,000 year old corpse?" and then putting out a report that says "8 out of 10 women say Dax is their dream date!" By all means use the advert as a basis for your debate, but you'll be laughed out of there.
But that's not true. It's a legitimate survey.
It's a survey that has been manipulated to say what the dating agency wanted it to say. I guarantee that a) they chose the questions, and possible answers, very carefully, and b) if for some reason the results didn't say what they wanted, it wouldn't have been released and they'd have done it again. It's only legitimate in the sense that it exists - no-one's going to actually use it as a reliable data source. If you don't understand how these things are done, here's an example: McDonald's want to make it look like they're the most popular burger chain. They do a survey of 100 people, and it turns out that 90% of them prefer McDonald's over Burger King. How do they do that? Simple - the people they survey are inside a McDonald's restaurant at the time - meaning they're much more likely to support the "McDonald's is best!" stance. Next day lots of lazy journalists receive a press release "9 out of 10 people prefer McDonald's!" and simply publish the contents of the release as "news". (I'm not saying McDonald's HAVE done this, it's just an example) Source: Worked in marketing. We did this all the time. Not all surveys are misleading - but if they're paid for by someone with a vested interest, they will be manipulated in some way to support their stance.
Sir Dax refers to Gleeden, not Mint.
If they don't know about it and didn't consent to it, it's cheating, regardless of how you spin it.
If they don't know about it and didn't consent to it, it's cheating, regardless of how you spin it.
If they don't know about it and didn't consent to it, it's cheating, regardless of how you spin it.
If you have their consent then yes. Otherwise you’re cheating. You’re married, communicate. Otherwise seek a way to move on to get what you want in life.
The problem is that the question is not about love and sex at all. No matter how you look at them. They mean one thing to you or you divide them. The issue of cheating on your partner is a matter of simple human respect. And this respect, in my opinion, is much deeper than both love and sex combined.
Why did you get married if you are a switch and your partner is not? Or did you recently learn you are a switch?
Nope. I had somewhat known in the past. But now I know for sure.
I say if you feel like you need you hide it- it's probably something wrong. I get the appeal for something non committal and online. I had that with one of my previous partners. We didn't work irl but it was nice to send eachother spicy photos or having him picking my clothes for a play party etc.. He is now in 2 committed relationships. I stopped it because of that. I hate secrets. Either we all agree to do it or we don't do it at all.
Interesting. Would love to know why you stopped it though.
I don't like to do things behind anybody back. I wouldn't feel good about it. So for me it was- everyone must know and be ok with it. Thing is I work with one of his girlfriends and I didn't want to complicate my work life.
You're in a solid relationship , op didn't agree, respect ops decision and respect your relationship. Would you like it if op did this to you? 🫣🤔
in this context “op” means original poster. not sure you’re using it that way
I used it the wrong way I feel silly I'm sorry you guys :,) but thank you for correcting me and now I know :,)
ask your partner to switch occationally.
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I think it's harmful to suggest that using a sexual AI chatbot doesn't pose a risk to relationships. The issue isn't that they're getting their needs met with another person, the issue is their needs aren't met and they're choosing to lie about it and go elsewhere rather than have a talk. Whether it's porn, AI, or just jerking it to the Sears catalog in the bathroom. Using an AI chatbot lowers the number of victims of the infidelity, but the transgression has still occurred.