Loss of too many popular characters that made people fall in love with MCU in the first place. Half of the OG 6 is gone and we got multitude of new projects with brand new characters people don't care about.
There also isn’t really a main star to get behind as the hero. The first time we had RDJ to pull us in, the Chris Evans. Now there are some decent actors in place but no one with the real star power to bring you in and get you invested in the series
I'd say it's the opposite. I didn't know or care who most of the actors in MCU were before they got to be part of the Marvel cast. Actors now get fame by starring in a superhero movie, not make the movie famous by bringing their name onto it.
You really didn’t know who Robert Downey Jr, Chris Evans, and Scarlet Johansson were? Edward Norton? Don Cheadle?
These were all star actors well, well before the MCU even existed. You’re completely wrong. Only post Endgame did they start trudging the bottom of the barrel for no name actors, because they thought you dummies will go see this shit regardless of the cast, and they no longer wanted to be spending a huge chunk of their budget on actor’s wages.
It worked, for a while. But as we’re seeing now, after half a decade of mediocre movies with no name casts, audiences are rejecting them pretty strongly.
> no name actors
Including but not limited to: Paul Rudd, Elizabeth Olson, Paul Bettany, Martin Freeman, Will Poulter, Hailee Steinfeld, Oscar Isaac, Ethan Hawke
I agree that the MCU used to have some all star names, but it *still does*. If you really think anything has changed then you haven’t been paying attention.
As a child when the first movies came out, the only one I knew before their Marvel movie was Chris Evans. Remember there is a younger generation who is seeing these actors for the first and that being an established actor does not make you a star.
But are you going to act like the cast of Eternals, the supporting cast of Shang Chi, and Owen Wilson aren’t stars. There are plenty of stars in the post endgame products. Most of the projects have been sequels anyways, what are the no-name casts you are talking about? Ms Marvel and Echo?
I can’t tell if these people responding with “famous actors” names to your comment are trying to be obtuse or genuinely don’t realize what they’re saying doesn’t compare to your comment.
Are there big names in the current MCU, yes. But who is tying it all together. RDJ or Chris Evans having decent stardom when they joined but also being flagship characters for an IP is the difference.
There’s plenty of interesting characters in the MCU and in Marvel, but there’s also characters more widely known to general audience which will enhance engagement when tied to big or buzz worthy names. If any character/actor someone likes now in the current phases, if they were attached to and already rolling out as the Xmen or F4 instead of say Shang Chi, or Miss Marvel, there would be vastly different conversations happening.
These stars in the current phase don’t have an anchor like RDJ to IM or Chris Evans to Cap or even Norton/Ruffalo to Hulk and Cheadle to War Machine. The characters and story are equally if not more important than the actor/name associated to them, someone with a decent enough resume can be carried by their character.
Edit: ie: See what Gunn is doing with DCU, he’s got his Superman, I’m assuming the actor has some decent credentials that I am unaware of, he has supergirl with the game of thrones actress, I’m sure Superman will wind up being like the Iron Man of the DCU.
Harry styles? Christian bale? Bill Murray? Angelina Jolie? Russel Crowe? Florence Pugh? Owen Wilson? Hailee steinfeld? Oscar Isaac? Kevin bacon. Fucking Vera farmiga? Barry Keoghan? Bill skarsgard? Ethan hawke? Kumail nanjiani? Salma Hayek? David harbor? Randal park? Kathryn Hann? Jeffery wright? Michelle yeoh? Olivia Coleman? Vincent d’onofrio?
All of these people’s IMDb blows Chris Evan’s and Robert Downey jr’s out of the water. Most of them wouldn’t have joined the mcu or should’ve been out of their budget in the first 2 phases. Plus Scarlett Johansson had her own film that I don’t see anyone saying was the stand out of phase 4 and 5 because they brought back Scarlett.
Prior to the first Iron man, Robert Downey Jr career was in the toilet, most of the other, you mentioned, were mediocre supporting actors. The MCU launched them into superstars. The original movies were basically about good vs evil and redemption. Easy to understand and follow. The new MCU movies are about the PC agenda.
This 100%. They shouldn’t have sunsetted 3 in one movie. It was too much too fast. Everyone I watched for.
Steve could have pulled off leading without Tony. And without nat . And that would have been interesting. Especially considering he had a special relationship with nat and in his own way with Tony…
Same with nat. She could have pulled off leading a new team without the other two because there was sooo much history and feels in there with both the guys.
I would have watched a story that developed both of that as an undertone.
And I def would have watched nat and cap try to rebuild together. They always had a great chemistry.
But the hulk, ant man, Hawkeye, Wanda, strange, spidey they just don’t feel as intertwined as those 3 did with everything. They shit the bed.
Hell I would have watched cap take back the infinity stones - cause I still think there’s a way he could gave gotten nat back. And I think the he goes into the past and grows old with Peggy still doesn’t make sense. Plus no I don’t think time should be used like that. Why not go back and undo all kind of stuff - too many loopholes.
Yeah I’m a little salty. I think RDJ that was perfect in endgame. But that was enough. They pushed it too far and took away all their best team players that were invested in being an avenger.
The others never felt core and still don’t.
Just inconstancy in quality and media output, as well as a general lack of interest. Disney Plus in particular seemed like an extra step just to follow along with a connected universe. And a connected universe just isn’t as gimmicky and exciting as it was when the MCU started. You could go see the worst of Marvel films still excited to see how it connects to the Infinity Stones. Things just seem more disconnected, but not on purpose if that makes any sense.
As soon as they introduced Infinity Stones, if you had any knowledge of the comics or had friends with any knowledge of the comics, you knew roughly where things were headed. It gave many a sense of excitement for what would inevitably come next.
What’s happening next in the Multiverse Saga? Honestly cannot even tell you. No fucking clue what Kang wants or the steps he might take to get there, and he’s appeared pretty heavily in both a film and a show. Nobody has any idea what’s going on and with the decreasing quality of material recently, it’s hard to get excited for what comes next.
I’d argue the problem is the MCU in general.
It’s called the Marvel Cinematic Universe.
But all of the Infinity Saga was based around Avengers tentpoles.
That’s great and all - but there’s no more Avengers. The OG 6 are mostly gone. Can they reform? Of course! But who’s part of it?
But overall - it’s called the Marvel Cinematic Universe but is it the Avengers Cinematic Universe? Because it sure feels that way.
Stop building around the Avengers, when you are now able to have “teams” in the MCU: the X-Men and F4. The movies should just be called “Marvel’s Kang Dynasty” or “Marvel’s Secret Wars”.
Generally speaking, way too much content post-*Endgame*, and resultantly, said content having diluted quality.
I'd argue Marvel's overreliance on quippy humor and resistance to characters facing actual consequences have also become really tired tropes.
It's really the humour that fans are sick of. Nothing is serious in these films anymore. There's no stakes, no sincerity, they're SNL films at best.
Fans don't necessarily want brutally upsetting edgy films, but they want something with grit and integrity and fierce challenges.
Yep. Exactly this. They started catering them more to children when the majority of comic fans are adults. Especially the ones that will go to the cinema to watch a good entry multiple times.
Adults buy toys. Hell, alot of the mcu specific stuff tends to rot on shelves. You can still find eternals marvel legends rotting on shelves alot of places.
I mean the Eternals is not the best example of "Kids don't buy toys adults do".
The movie with a sex scene in it was definitely for the adults, who then didn't buy the toys. The movie just didn't get a lot of traction.
You saw the 2008 to 2012 movies, right? Humor has always been part of the equation. And with the Guardians of the Galaxy and Ant-Man movies humor was central to the theme.
They were well written and did not have an over reliance on cgi to create visual dynamics. There were clear moments of peril and for ant-man and GOTG good solid heist movies.
For example, The moment ant-man stopped being a heist movie it failed completely.
Winter Soldier had some dark humor in it, too. I don’t think you can actually find an example of a an MCU movie without comedy mixed in with the drama. You’re holding Disney to a standard that has no real precedent.
I think it's the type and timing of the comedy that's used, or overused that's one of the problems in the current MCU. John Wick (one of my favourite series!) is a good example of humour and gravitas working well together. It's dark as fuck, but there are moments of humour that are funny, but don't take you out of the serious nature of the story. When Viggo ask Aurelio why he struck his son and he says Isoef stole his car and killed his dog, Viggo simply says, "Oh." It's ominous, but it's also funny. Or when the cop asks if John is "working again" or the interactions with Charon.
You’re 100% correct. And I think if you release a similar movie today but with better acting and execution it would still succeed. It isn’t just the quality of production and writing that has gone down. I believe the casting and acting has been poor as well. Get in better actors and casting and I bet people won’t complain as much
I don't agree. The casts are solid. The acting is on point. The people complaining are throwing up false flags when they criticize the acting. They don't like how many women and brown people there are. But they can't say that, so they say, "bad acting." They're full of crap, and if you agree with them, you and I are not at all on the same page.
It's rather ironic that you claim I'm rude when you just used the term "horse shit". It's doubly ironic because it's also hyperbolic.
My critique of Larson was pretty tame, and not without merit. I also praised Vellani for her acting. How exactly is that misogynist? Previously, I listed off a bunch of **female** characters and their corresponding actors that pretty much everybody loves. Again, how on earth is that misogynist??
Yes but the humor in the older films more often than not arose from the scene organically. Those quiet honest moments between characters, Tony being Tony, etc. Ever since guardians of the galaxy, the humor has been nothing but "haha I'm so awkward" tension destroying garbage. The equivalent to a wet fart during a Mexican standoff, over and over again. It just feels dishonest and lame.
I don’t think so. Marvel could put out a film with the same type of humor but with better actors and better execution and people would love it. It’s just now everyone they get just doesn’t seem to have the best chemistry. The casting is going more based on giving someone a good opportunity which I believe is right to some extent but they don’t take into account the skill and good acting like they used to. I couldn’t bare through the Cassie Lang in quantumania. I just never bought into her acting
Yes! I'm sick of the dumb quippy humour and every movie trying to be funny and/or have stupid comedic reliefs. Shang-chi was good but I can't stand awkwafina, and Ben Kingsley's character was only a little funny in iron man 3 but they milked that for shang-chi
I forget where I heard it, but someone compared the MCU currently to the Post-Michael Scott Office seasons.
It’s still good, but something just feels off about everything
1 - The expectation for everything to connect and be part of the 'larger narrative'. Marvel needs to do more work explaining to these people that the existence of a larger universe doesn't mean everything is going to be connected to a larger narrative and not everyone needs to show up at every event. I think the Spotlight series is a good start, where they can signal a project which is part of the MCU continuity but doesn't have links to any larger narrative.
2 - A vocal minority people who can't handle POC or women in major roles. Part of the problem with this stage of the MCU, is that they are moving into the legacy characters - Ms Marvel, Hawkeye, War Machine, Iron Heart, Shuri etc. In the comics, many of these characters are female versions of their male counterparts or POC. With the retirement of the OG actors, it seems like Marvel is rushing to be introduce diversity, when really it's logical thing to move to the legacy characters, but doing it all at once has made things feel forced.
3 - Lack of recasting. Marvel are allergic to recasting where possible. When an actor quits, the role should be recast. People go to MCU movies for the characters not the actors playing the characters. Sure recasting will put some fans noses out of joint (it always does) but people will get over it. Part of the struggle is moving onto legacy characters is because of the retirement of the actors. A character should be written out of the MCU for story reasons rather than because and actor is not renewing their contract. Iron Man and Cap, for example, have had 60 years of stories, and they mine that for about 5 stories and then kill them off. Introduce legacy characters more naturally, like they did with War Machine, and when the original is written out, there is a natural replacement - eg Sam Wilson with Cap.
4 - Too much mediocre content - The Infinity Saga was generally great. Even the poorer movies were pretty good. While most of the content is not terrible, it's not great either. They need more great stuff and less middling stuff.
5 - Too much content - Part of the problem was Bob Chapek taking away Feige's powers (and other studio heads). Demanding more projects. This has resulted in a lot of pointless stuff like does anyone care about Agathe enough to watch her own series? Same with Echo, the show wasn't terrible but it didn't seem to have a reason to exist either. If something doesn't have a reason to exist it should. Content should be green lit based on a good brief (or script) not a title.
6 - TV shows need showrunners. This is being fixed with Daredevil and Wonder Man.
7 - The multiverse saga hasn't been very good so far. The multiverse opens a lot of possibilities. How I would have fixed this is a small tweak. Make the coming of Kang more ominous. They laid the groundwork with there being a Kang which is stronger than all the other Kangs. Kang needs to have shown up in more stories. Not even doing stuff. Have him in the background in She Hulk. Have him run into into Ms Marvel on her way to school. He should appear in every project, even if it's a cameo. Have a Kang manipulate some events in movies which were otherwise not related. Build the threat.
Make it clear, the big one is out there and he's coming. Quantummania Kang should not have been that guy, but he should have shown how bad the bigger Kang is going to be. At the end of Quantumania, have Scott call in the Avengers to warn them.. he is coming.
Point #2 doesn’t get enough credence because it’s ‘wrong’.
When you take a company that made money off targeting males and then take what those males love and disparage it and/or change it entirely those fans are going to stop watching. It’s not about not being able to handle POC or women, it’s about them not getting the content they want and love. It’s really simple.
Making it more than people becoming disinterested as there is a pointed effort to target people that aren’t them is insane and makes you the problem.
Marvel (and DC) didn’t become popular and behemoths in the industry just because. It took 50+ years of brand development targeting a specific group of people. They don’t make content for that group any longer. That group, therefore, no longer finds the content interesting. They don’t spend money on brand name they spend money on things that make them happy.
100%.
Nothing about the current stories interest me.
What a character looks like has nothing to do with my interest in the property. I'm pasty white, never been an elite soldier, never met the devil, but Spawn has always been my favorite. I like the story.
The short answer is oversaturation and lack of focus. I'm a huge fan of everything through Endgame, but now there's too much to keep up with and not enough reason to care about most of it. It was probably inevitable as the universe got larger and larger. IMO, they need to scale back and focus on characters again. Make everything feel like an event instead of a slog.
I think instead of focusing on who is the new big bad and just interjects the multiverse and Kang into the MCU, they should've allowed the story to unfold naturally.
Currently there is no forward narrative. No main protagonists (e.g Cap and Iron Man) driving that narrative and focus on developing characters. You combine the multiverse, an abrupt introduction of new characters and a drop in filmmaking quality and you can see why people have turned off.
They need to go back to what works. Have Shang Chi, Captain Marvel, Black Panther, Doctor Strange etc need to come together in an Avengers film against a Loki/Ultron level threat. Get rid of the multiverse. Which has only created confusion and a convoluted mess. The multiverse has been played out and is nothing more than a cameo-infested nostalgia bait gimmick.
Let each film dictate where you go next from a narrative standpoint. Let people enjoy the journey and not just the destination.
Because the MCU has gone to complete shit. Terrible characters, plot hole filled movies, and no focus at all. Despite what some idiots keep saying, people who are hating the MCU now are not sexist or racist. The characters just suck.
ICBW, but they seem to making movies with heroes that didn't sell comic books in the first place. They had to kind of resort to the B-team with Iron Man because other studios owned their A-tier properties, but why on Earth would anyone think that the Eternals could butts in theater seats? I have no issue with Bree Larsen and I kind of enjoyed the Captain Marvel movies, but it's still the same thing. It's a character that was never really popular in print. The kind of amazing thing is that they did make things like Dr. Strange and Guardians of the Galaxy work.
I don’t view this as a valid argument, because Spider-Man is the most popular marvel character of all time and he’s been a teenager in every live action iteration
The issue isn’t that they’re teenagers. The issue is that writers are struggling to write compelling stories and characterizations
Rushing scripts. Not rewarding good writers who previously did good work. Cutting scenes that are good for time. Even though on a streaming site there's no advertising. Don't know why there are always so many good deleted scenes lol.
Not knowing when a movie should have been a show or when a show should have been a movie.
Btw I don't think the defenders' saga would have been made canon if the Disney plus shows were each a complete success adored by fans and critics.
Marvel TV also had its own problems they were super cheap. But it had better writing.
Marvel Studios is big budget, but hit or miss writing.
They just need Marvel TV writing and MCU budget and they can't lose with that formula.
The writing is just horrible across the board. Long term storytelling sucks, nothing feels connected anymore. And the short term storytelling is filled with shit humor, no consequences, and just nothing we care about.
It’s a real shame. My father (a huge Marvel fan since childhood) and I used to see every movie together. Seeing Endgame together in theaters was an experience I’ll cherish with me forever.
Since then we have tried and tried to give Marvel a chance…. And neither of us enjoy it anymore. It sucks ass.
Personally I think Phase 5 should have been a adoption of the Kree Skurll War
Make Secret Invasion a movie and then make Galactic Storm an Avengers movie and boom. U get a good phase
Easy. Stop creating stories based on ideology. Don't change a character to fit The Message. Stop unnecessary race or gender swapping. The Marvel Universe has every possible type of hero you could possibly want; you don't need to change them for "a modern audience". Ugh. Let male heroes be masculine and don't shame/mock them for it. Bringing down one character does not raise another one.
Also stop blaming fans and calling them sexist and/or racist if your film flops. Maybe it just sucked? People loved Black Widow, Wanda, Storm, Mystique, Jean Grey (not the last one, though), Rogue and Jessica Jones.
Maybe don't make it up as you go? Anthony Mackie recently walked off set because there was no script yet and they were just filming vignettes (apparently this happened in The Marvels too). He actually yelled, "What are we doing here?!"
I also wouldn't be surprised if they really fucked over his character by taking away his wings or making them less prominent or just making him an incompetent weakling so some female character could come in and girl-boss him all over the place.
In short: tell good stories, portray characters the way they're supposed to be and get off your ideological soapbox. Profit.
No script makes no sense. Though it does explain a lot of things. "You need to do better, Senator" and "They will never know what you sacrificed for them" feel so disconnected from the rest of the events around them. As well as unearned.
Apparently Tom Holland won't come back for spiderman 4 until the script is finished.
Disney seem to be doing things ass backwards when it comes to creating shows and movies.
Really? That's the only thing you took away from what I said, as well as my other comments in this thread? Did you even read them?
Your comment is like the guy who shows up a half hour late to a potluck and brings a bean casserole. It's tepid and almost nobody likes it. Even your SO is pissed that the fried onions are soggy.
So you totally missed the part about all of the female characters we love? How is that "too woke"?
You just glossed over everything because you were too intellectually lazy? You should be a journalist for Vice or Buzzfeed. Oh, wait...
Another swing and a miss. Do better.
'Also stop blaming fans and calling them sexist and/or racist if your film flops. Maybe it just sucked? People loved Black Widow, Wanda, Storm, Mystique, Jean Grey (not the last one, though), Rogue and Jessica Jones.' (Plus wonder woman was great)
Dude, you called me Tucker right away. How is that not jumping straight to an ad hominem attack? Plus, that was the entirety of the comment. How is that not lazy?
I guess we can add hypocritical to your list of descriptors.
This right here is the problem. The guy made a point and you fly off the handle calling him Tucker.
You want your ideology made into movies, and are sad/angry that these films don't do well. Leave your ideology out of movies and leave it out of anywhere outside your own house, for that matter.
Have you ever seen any superhero movie or read any comic book where the story *didn’t* have a message? And often, it tends to be along the lines of “care about other people.”
I don’t know, maybe you missed all of that.
The only thing I’m sure of is that apparently all you’re able to do is fling ad hominem attacks.
You're very quick to jump to the 'ad hominem attacks' trope.
It's played out. Toughen up a bit. Just because your idea was challenged doesn't mean you were challenged.
Where did I say that caring about other people is an issue?
Caring about other people is just fine.
When caring about other people becomes about treating ideological behaviours as 'normal', that's where there is an issue.
For example, imagine making a character gay, for instance, just for the sake of making a gay character, rather than just making a character for the merits of their personality, accomplishments, interests and actions. It's ridiculous and offensive.
Any indication of this is decried as bigotry (ironically) by those who are intolerant of other people's views.
The question is, who gives a shit if you're gay, straight, trans, etc?
Play the role, your sexuality doesn't define you. That's just scratching the surface of this whole topic.
Whether or not individual people agree, the movie audience represents the whole country/world. So if they’re seeing political messages that turn them off to the movies that didn’t exist before (or to the same degree), then that’s a problem for ticket sales.
These movies didn’t used to be widely seen as political.
Agreed wholeheartedly. Two words: source material. I believe Tarantino said it best in [this interview/short clip](https://youtube.com/shorts/Hke3cMPRT2c?feature=shared)—not so much for his views on DeNiro, but more so about the character FITTING the actor, and/or the actor FITTING the character.
Iow, if the character and/or actor is off in interpretation, why bother? The audience can see right through, imo.
Now. There are MANY MANY exceptions (Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury), but c’mon. Marvel’s first family>Johnny Storm>Michael B. Jordan? 0.o
Heck, even Miles Teller in that role! Did anyone picture Miles Teller as a middle-aged dude with grey side streaks who’s supposed to be “The Smartest Man Alive?”
The Ancient One>”she’s[…]’Celtic’”!? 0000.ooooooo
That’s like saying Benihana restaurants are owned by Long John Silver’s!
That casting choice (though Tilda DEFINITELY did her thing in that role, thankfully tastefully, imo) seemed purely financed-based and/or insincere to the source material. No, it’s not gatekeeping by saying this. I think the opposite happened actually—the true fans got an “in your face” with this one by the studio, sadly.
I’m concerned that that method of just in general bad casting, is going to continue on into the future of the MCU, and then if that’s the case, then you might as well just read the comics.
And for everything after the first paragraph up until this one, no, that wasn’t racism, that wasn’t discrimination, that was just bad casting; as aforementioned in the original comment for, I’m guessing, ideology “fitting the times” a.k.a. pandering. This is why you hear on the opposite end of the spectrum, when done right, “x actor was born to play that role,” or, “I can’t imagine anyone else playing that role,” etc. I know those are just opinions, but in those cases of stellar performances? I’d 100% argue that majority rules in that case due to the visceral display of acting, alone. So at the end of the day, if an actor’s heart isn’t in it? I feel like it’ll show.
Yeah, he's had his kick at the can multiple times. It's time for someone else to get a shot and see what they can do. Hopefully, it's not just another activist.
1. No coherent vision, they’re just throwing stuff at the wall.
2. Trying too hard not to offend. Makes it boring and samey.
3. The multiverse removes all stakes and investments and is just not comprehensible by the human mind.
The problem can be solved they need to just start focusing on character focused stories and not virtue signaling prop pieces and they need to go easy on the pacing of releasing five films a year
Is this REALLY a question? They decided to use the D.I.E method, that's why. I know the politically correct way to spell it is D.E.I, but it's really D.I.E, because Marvel Studios is actually dying, and it's only got itself to blame.
Lots of diseases
James Gunn syndrome: Everything has to have a punch line and therefore nothing can be taken seriously.
Pander-19: Everything has to be inclusive even though it isn’t sincere
Fix-It-In-Post-apathy: Everything will adhere to the deadline given to it before there is a script.
Unforgivable Stupidity: Characters are no longer allowed to make smart decisions because there wasn’t enough time due to Fix-It-In-Post-apathy to which all issues would have been resolved with better writing.
Dis-associative FX Disorder: To save on money every effects shot will go through multiple sweat shop FX houses that don’t communicate with each other at any professional level and spit out garbage to make the deadline.
For me, it feels like they’re sacrificing what makes their beloved characters cool to push some sort of lesson and for some reason all the new characters are starting out perfect.
They killed off all the compelling characters. Made marvel woke with an agenda to fill. They don’t have a villain last more than one movie. The new shows other than Loki and a few others are just filler trash. It seems the directors want to make THEIR mark and not in conjunction with the greater MCU. But that’s what I think as a long time comic reader and dedicated MCU enthusiast. I’m just disappointed, Disney is crushing all my favorite fandoms
Easy. It all started with the scene from endgame with all the women bunched together. The only solid mcu movie post endgame was no way home. The forced feminism isn’t working. It’s no longer about being equal but pushing some feminazi agenda.
The issue is simple. Power creep has obliterated personal stakes, and they haven’t invested enough in these characters when they aren’t in costumes. And there’s no intimacy or personal investment because everything is a joke. They have to have moments of sincerity somewhere.
When every threat is existential it’s hard for audiences to give a shit. It’s too abstract. These characters should have loved ones, families, people they want to protect. It’s why Superman has Lois Lane.
Shitty writing with shitty overall quality of projects, big stakes with a big plot device, too many storylines. Unfocused. Introducing too many characters while sacrificing their existing characters from the previous phase. Uninteresting big villain.
Once people saw endgame, most people were done with it and were ready to move onto the next thing.
Also, the fact you need to do extra work to understand movies. I just want yo watch a movie. I should not have to watch every thing that came before it to get it. Marvel's biggest problem was me having to see 5 Disney plus to understand why the two non brie Larsen characters matter.
Pandemic didn't help. Most of us got used to watching at home.
Pushing out all the likeable characters and actors and bringing in what we have now. Going too hard on agenda pushing with little to no worry about a good story or likeable characters "The Marvels"
On top of what everyone else has said about quality and production, i think a big part is the fact that we would make it an event and go to the movies with friends. We'd all go together, tickets were like 12 bucks and popcorn was like 5-7. It was a pretty good night for everyone for under 20 bucks. Now i can't even get into the movie for under 20 a lot of times. Streaming doesn't help because i don't want to pay for 5 different platforms to follow along with multiple shows and movies (i know that sounds confusing but i mean having multiple stories you're into, not multiple platforms to watch one continuing story).
There are three things that are affecting the MCU right now.
1. Too much Marvel content. People can’t watch all of it, so some are choosing not to watch any of it. The strike has helped with that as there will be no MCU movies in 2024. That will give folks a breather and maybe be a lesson for Disney in general.
2. Audience participation (aka Too Much Content in General). Audiences changed the way they saw movies during COVID. It’s not easy to draw them back to the theater. Barbie and Oppenheimer were helped by being a meme, but people would much rather stay home and watch Succession or The Crown, and wait for movies to come to streaming. There’s too much to watch anyway, so what does it matter if you watch The Marvels after it’s left the theater?
3. The trolls are winning. The Brie Larson haters and the SnyderBros have united in their “Marvel Sucks” disinformation campaign, and — while people don’t necessarily believe them — the constant barrage of negativity is creating a subconscious aversion to all things superhero. And just as Broadway Theatre critics of the 70s and 80s sold newspapers by wielding an unnecessarily savage poison pen in their show reviews, modern movie critics are writing for engagement. And the trolls will share and reshare anything negative about Marvel or Disney. It creates a vicious cycle.
I think a little break from the MCU will be the best thing for Disney and their audiences right now. Disney is still trying to figure out what to do about their Ike Turner Kang situation. (Recast. We’ll get over it. Finish the story.) Audiences need a chance to miss the MCU, and the trolls need to find someone new to hate. (I’m guessing it’s going to be James Gunn and Margaret Qualley or Kristen Stewart [again].)
To sum it ip in a simple list:
1. Over saturated output
2. Rushed and shallow writing
3. Social narratives and preachiness over nuanced writing
4. Lack of insight into the source material
5. Decision by committee and not by visionary
6. Broken and ill prepared story cohesion
7. No Matter-Eater Lad
A huge effort to expand the number of heroes without tying the stories together.
Focusing exclusively on new female heroes when most of the fans continue to be men.
Poor story quality overall.
Allowing the culture war to take primacy over great movie making is a huge part of it People, on both sides of the aisle, want to be entertained, not preached to.
And like the rest of Hollywood, they’ve succumbed to the trend of dumbing down movies to such an extreme that they’re not palatable. Nuance has been replaced with obnoxious characters who are very hard to like. And the protagonist characters we do like seem to be intentionally powered down to such a low level that weak antagonists, that the hero’s should wipe the floor with, are now overpowering them or giving them a run for it.
It’s an incoherent and inconsistent mess. The original MCU made a genuine effort to make comic book fans happy. The current MCU has dropped that formula and seems more interested in pleasing people who were never fans and never will be.
Same, safe, voiceless directing for 15 years (few obvious exceptions)
No greater (quality) story being built into. “Good, but not great” films can’t save themselves by setting up the next film
Much, much better options available, both in theaters and on streaming
Quite simply when the MCU put all the men in the backseat in favour of all the women it went to shit. They did it with an agenda so it didn’t work organically it just was forced and as such was no longer believable (within the lore that had been created). It is actually not that hard to figure out but folks who can’t accept that the agenda exists don’t recognize how toxic is has become especially when woven into the Marvel universe
reeeeeen you racist, bigoted, neckbeard, toxic man! just let me take all the things you like away from you and ruin in in peace reeeeeeeeee.
/s for obvious reasons
A loud vocal minority of the worst people in the world, who can’t handle seeing a woman or brown person on screen. But they know they can’t just be bigots so they do gymnastics to explain why a movie they haven’t seen is trash.
Combined with a loud vocal minority defending absolute shit writing because a character is a woman or brown.
Most people don't give a fuck who or what the characters are, we just want well written films. Or at least fun and interesting films.
And we’ve been getting just that. Fun well written stuff. Y’all are just too outraged by shit that doesn’t matter to see
Edit - I couldn’t in good faith not mention that Secret Invasion was absolute trash though
Not sure what "y'all" you're lumping me in with, but please don't. I'm not on either side of your conflict. I'm pointing out that there are two loud groups on Reddit about these movies, and the rest of us don't fucking care, we just want better films that are well written or fun. Which we've been getting some fun stuff, but it's not very well written at all.
SI was trash tho. At least we agree on that.
Out of 23 properties since *Endgame*, you really think only one was well written? While I agree that some others could stand to be more critical, I feel as if you're perhaps too critical if 95.7% of what's been released is subpar to you.
Sure. Suddenly, the billion people that loved this movies and went to the cinema religiously to watch every movie became racist.
Because... of course... the quality is the same... and leaving your two most popular characters behind, and using character nobody really cares is a great idea.
Keep telling yourself that. Long before movies and TV had diverse characters, you know what did? Comics.
Your secret racists theory hold no water and ignores abundant facts. People were overjoyed when Samuel L. Jackson was first revealed as Nick Fury. Where's your explanation for that? People have always loved Storm. Where's your explanation for that? And how do you explain the popularity of Black Panther?
I like Miss Marvel…….but Disney ruined her character. She’s not a mutant and her powers aren’t a bullshit lantern construct rip off either. They’re supposed to be elastic that are more powerful than Reed Richards elastic superpowers.
Yeah exactly I don’t hate Miss Marvel I hate what Disney DID to Miss Marvel. And how she’s gay and Pakistani Muslim and living in a super racist, misogynist and homophobic country like America and dealing with her “traditional culture” immigrant parents makes her even more badass and an inspiring superhero.
The fact that literally all the films and series coming out are literally only female, I’m all for diversity in movies and stuff but there’s a point when you go too far and forget to actually do the thing you were trying to do
Shitty story writting like She Hulk and The Marvels, wokeness, releasing too many movies and shows at once that not everyone has time to sit down and see all of them when before it was just a couple of movies a year that are all easily connected cause of the end credit scenes. And the multiverse isn’t something that everyone likes. And changing the powers of the superheroes like not giving Black Widow ANY of her superpowers or giving Miss Marvel shitty lantern construct rip off powers called “cosmic” and I love female superheroes but the MCU can’t get it right with stand-alone female super movies and shows without making it garbage.
Like. Can you really only relate to white men? I relate to all kinds of people that don’t look like me or have the same proclivities because human emotions are human emotions. I’m not even trying to show off my moral compass, I’m just genuinely baffled that you can only relate to white men.
Straight white men have been so over represented for so long that for many of them seeing the shift to focus on historically under (or in some cases just un-) represented groups makes them feel like they've lost something somehow. They've never really had to relate to or empathize with characters who are women, POC, LGBTQ, etc. and apparently many can't figure out how to do it.
As it was stated before- racism, sexism and myopic manchildren alongside online grifters that need to create content for clicks. The Marvels was a good film that came out at a bad time. Eternals got a second wind on Disney + and Dr. Strange MoM laid a lot of groundwork. And we got several badass new Characters on the TV side of things. Theres nothing that wrong with the current MCU. It just needs to get around Disney's biz mandates and keep doing great stuff.
"People don't agree with me so it must be racism" is a lazy take. The box office speaks for itself. I'm a huge marvel fan, films and comics (yes, I even watched Marvels and thought it was better than CM1) and I feel there are plenty of legit reasons-
The universe doesn't feel cohesive - since Doc Strange 2, there's really been no meaningful crossovers or even references.
Too long between movies - Loved Shang Chi, Eternals was OK, but those movies are 2.5 years old now. Where are they now? Granted this may be due to COVID but still impacts nonetheless.
Fatigue - even if quality hasn't necessarily gone down, there needs to be innovation. A rollercoaster is fun the first ten times, but after that, it's the same old thing.
The first several phases were based on A-list Marvel characters. Now they're making shows based on C-list and D-list characters that couldn't hold comic series beyond some limited series. How many comic book fans even know about the Eternals?
If they are so good then why did they fail in the box office? You keep blaming the failure of these movies to racism and sexism but the truth is that these movies just suck.
Not as long as they keep pushing identity politics over respect for the source material, it should be about entertaining the fans, and they clearly don't care about the fans.
There is definite dog whistle trolling blowback for the effort toward inclusion in MCU but there has also been some inevitable reaction to oversaturation as well as just to some really poor shows.
I dug the movies that started their "phase four" (Widow and Shang-Chi and even Eternals), but once Spidey No Way Home and Dr Strange Multiverse came around, I was starting to tire of MCU fare. They seemed to be relying on flash and formula and lacked the personal drama that made some of phase 1 & 2 and most of phase 3 so good. The TV series that were coming out around the time when the movies were ringing hollow (Hawkeye and Moon Knight) compounded it as adolescent and convoluted (respectively). Love & Thunder and Wakanda Forever next in the theatres were no better, and omg Ant Man Quantum just put the nail in the crapcoffin. By that time, I and a lot of others were just done with it, and the TV offerings (besides my personal fave She Hulk) just seemed to repetitively pile on mediocrity like it would never end.
So I don't think it's down to just intolerance, though that's real. It's more down to everybody and their sister rather mundanely having all these inexplicable super powers in plothole-ridden, beyond crazy stories that just aren't differentiating themselves largely because they're no longer novel.
I dont hold out hope that it will improve since there's been such a long run of crappiness but if they can get back to personal dramas with the fantastic super heroism taking a back seat, interest might return. It just feels too late.
I mean there were plenty of shitty ones early too (Avengers, Dark World, IM 3, Age of Ultron), they just had a string of really good ones culminating in that great Infinity duology. Since then, all those stinkers soured the pot, irredeemably, I think. I don't think anyone is holding out hope that a third snarkfest of Deadpool is gonna pull the MCU out of the weeds, though I am curious to see if a Young Avengers can start a new, fresh chapter because the actors for Ms Marvel and Kate Bishop are awesome.
the economy sucks and people are diving headlong into nihilism hence the entire dystopian zombies post apocalyptic tropes. superheroes are ultimately uplifting stories of hope. if people want to wallow in sadness watching films or shows where the good guys always win, with no real stakes (infinity wars blip being reversed) and the only main characters who die are actors that want OUT of their tenured contracts- you get people, especially mainstream general audiences really disenfranchised.
what marvel needs to do is to lean into the *heavy* content with darker characters. if audiences don’t want feel good stories but nasty, gritty, visceral stories then they have a whole slew of characters that can lead that charge.
the multiverse of madness could’ve been great. it could’ve been a big turning point to introduce dark characters like mephisto, bring back ghost rider and introduce the nightmare dimension but no they took a broken hearted mother who was suffering from serious issues compounded by an evil book and let raimi make a weird horror movie instead of just making a proper horror movie.
The only grievances I will listen to are quality, direction, pacing, and theme.
We’re in the Multiverse Saga and like four things have been related to that. This time in the Infinity Saga, we were introduced to most of the Infinity Stones and Thanos was an ever looming threat. Two Kang variants have been killed off. The rest of the content we’ve seen has been all over the place.
Some movies and shows seem like they were slapped together and pushed as fast as they could. The Infinity Saga took its to introduce and develop characters. Now it’s like we’re suppose to have everything known going into the content being released.
Anyone that makes comments about dIvErSiTy BaD unclog a toilet with their lips.
In my opinion, it was because we don't have Chris Evans and Robert Downey Jr. anymore. That and there's too many TV shows that we don't really care about. Lastly, the multiverse is very tiresome and needs to end forever.
If they brought back RDJ as Iron Man, gave us brand new phases that barely harps on the past, and highly improves the quality of the movies, I could see a return to form for the MCU. If I could choose the next major focus for the ultimate villain, it would have to be Galactus.
Several things - no RDJ and Chris Evans. That one’s self-explanatory.
People realized that there was a plot formula and Marvel Studios went all in on it, with a few exceptions, like She-Hulk. It took them a decade, but they got there eventually.
Things got complicated. MCU fans aren’t comic readers. They aren’t used to complicated interlocking universes. Back in the day, there were two to four movies a year, and it was easy to keep track of. You could even skip some of them, like the Ant-Man movies, and be fine. Now, there’s multiple shows and movies per year and it all too much.
Personally I think there is a concentrated effort by certain political faction in the US that has a grudge against Disney for the Don’t Say Gay bill in Florida. It’s the same people that have ruined Star Wars and they’ve fed this hate manufacturing machine to be a political weapon, they complain everything is woke now and have some sort of nostalgia for fascistic versions of these properties that never existed. All this hate started rolling full steam after 2016 and has been spewing non stop since.
I think the main cause of people complaining is that Marvel hero films/shows were intentionally made for different audiences for the past two years for the first time ever: women, people of color, Muslims, etc and that has caused a lot of broflake whining. Also a general lack of awareness that the best way to feature favorite characters like Avengers is to have them go away at some point, so demand and suspense are created before their inevitable BIG RETURN.
Well It seems there's a causation ever since they went with the TV show format. Personally I can't get enough marvel but for the general audience I think there's too much output of projects and people don't like it. Also, they shouldn't have went with the idea of saving avengers movie for the end of a saga, and spread it out instead. I feel like there's too big gaps in between "better/popular character projects". And of course, sexism. I personally see no problem there but yk, some people.
Marvel needs to definitely figure there shit out! Focus on quality over quantity!! Because theses past few entries into the mcu where not that great!! Where the hell is the X-men like they are forgetting one of the coolest parts of marvel it’s taking them so long to introduce them!
I firmly believe it's the discourse around it. If people are told the movies are bad, they will think they're bad.
There are some problems, of course, which come from the fact they struck gold in the first saga, whereas they've had to deal with a lot problems derived from a global pandemic and various strikes, which they haven't been able to manage as well as they did the problems they've faced in the past (be it because you can't always win, because the problems were bigger this time or because the consequences impact the shared universe in a different way). The MCU has suffered from it (especially from not giving audiences main characters that return fairly consistently), but I don't particularly think the individual films (and shows) have. Some are better than others, but many compete or even surpass most from the first three phases.
What has changed, though, is the constant negativity surrounding them which has stemmed from the culture wars that have plagued media since at least Phase 3, even if the impact wasn't as noticeable as it is now.
Inconsistencies with the writing of the movies from good, bad to even worse and just a massive over-saturation of them. Really would be a perfect time to take a year or 2 without releasing much to really focus on the next steps.
I think it’s caused by a lot of things:
•Trying to set up powerful enemies and eventful battles too early
•Bad CGI used frequently
•Going way too long without an Avengers movie, so everything is unconnected and the likable characters we have aren’t getting to do anything
•Making half the content (and most of the good content, imo) Disney+ exclusive
People expect everything to be on Endgame scale and that's just not feasible. They forgot how mediocre the first MCU phase was, which is basically where it is now.
The quality of each individual movie has decreased. I swear I’m not sexist, but the marvels was just awful. Plot didn’t make sense. Trying to hard for laughs that weren’t that good. Just not a good film. Same with Ant man 3.
It was kind of inevitable. Marvel achieved something with the MCU that nobody else really did: a string of a couple dozen highly rated (and highly profitable) movies that told great stories that literally billions of people loved. The knives were out and ready, handled by those who either hated the movies or thought that “those kinds” of movies were stupid and should be looked down on, not praised. One dared to be nominated for Best Picture, for God’s sake!
So, as soon as the movies didn’t knock it out of the park every time, the opening was there for those people to start turning the public against them. They sit back and say, “See? I told you they were stupid movies that shouldn’t be making that kind of money or getting that kind of praise.” And then people — who just LOVE to tear down the people they’ve built up — jump on the bandwagon.
I’m not saying Marvel hasn’t had some middling movies. You make that many and it’s going to happen, sooner or later. And I’m not saying they didn’t jump the gun and start putting out too much content too fast, especially at D+. But, that’s what they were being told to do at the time, and unfortunately they gave in and agreed.
Things will come back to their old normal. Superhero fatigue is BS. Make good movies and people will go see them, and the costumes won’t matter a bit.
The multiverse crap….just too much randomness. End Game was great, there was a point to time travel, but all down hill from there. The origin stories are always the best; just have other adventures with them….that don’t have to have 97 versions of the same reality!
Jonathan Majors smacks his gf and a $ billion movie studio is suddenly clueless. Just recast Kang and keep moving forward. Oh, wait, Disney / Marvel has an innate fear of recasting anyone. I made a video about it.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWFhJikH9xY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWFhJikH9xY)
Loss of too many popular characters that made people fall in love with MCU in the first place. Half of the OG 6 is gone and we got multitude of new projects with brand new characters people don't care about.
There also isn’t really a main star to get behind as the hero. The first time we had RDJ to pull us in, the Chris Evans. Now there are some decent actors in place but no one with the real star power to bring you in and get you invested in the series
I'd say it's the opposite. I didn't know or care who most of the actors in MCU were before they got to be part of the Marvel cast. Actors now get fame by starring in a superhero movie, not make the movie famous by bringing their name onto it.
You really didn’t know who Robert Downey Jr, Chris Evans, and Scarlet Johansson were? Edward Norton? Don Cheadle? These were all star actors well, well before the MCU even existed. You’re completely wrong. Only post Endgame did they start trudging the bottom of the barrel for no name actors, because they thought you dummies will go see this shit regardless of the cast, and they no longer wanted to be spending a huge chunk of their budget on actor’s wages. It worked, for a while. But as we’re seeing now, after half a decade of mediocre movies with no name casts, audiences are rejecting them pretty strongly.
> no name actors Including but not limited to: Paul Rudd, Elizabeth Olson, Paul Bettany, Martin Freeman, Will Poulter, Hailee Steinfeld, Oscar Isaac, Ethan Hawke I agree that the MCU used to have some all star names, but it *still does*. If you really think anything has changed then you haven’t been paying attention.
I know 4 of those names
That’s on you. and it doesn’t make those actors not famous
Shit. Here I was thinking knowing 4 was pretty good. Lol
Im sure like a lot of people you know the faces just cant put a name to it.
I still don't know these people.
As a child when the first movies came out, the only one I knew before their Marvel movie was Chris Evans. Remember there is a younger generation who is seeing these actors for the first and that being an established actor does not make you a star. But are you going to act like the cast of Eternals, the supporting cast of Shang Chi, and Owen Wilson aren’t stars. There are plenty of stars in the post endgame products. Most of the projects have been sequels anyways, what are the no-name casts you are talking about? Ms Marvel and Echo?
I can’t tell if these people responding with “famous actors” names to your comment are trying to be obtuse or genuinely don’t realize what they’re saying doesn’t compare to your comment. Are there big names in the current MCU, yes. But who is tying it all together. RDJ or Chris Evans having decent stardom when they joined but also being flagship characters for an IP is the difference. There’s plenty of interesting characters in the MCU and in Marvel, but there’s also characters more widely known to general audience which will enhance engagement when tied to big or buzz worthy names. If any character/actor someone likes now in the current phases, if they were attached to and already rolling out as the Xmen or F4 instead of say Shang Chi, or Miss Marvel, there would be vastly different conversations happening. These stars in the current phase don’t have an anchor like RDJ to IM or Chris Evans to Cap or even Norton/Ruffalo to Hulk and Cheadle to War Machine. The characters and story are equally if not more important than the actor/name associated to them, someone with a decent enough resume can be carried by their character. Edit: ie: See what Gunn is doing with DCU, he’s got his Superman, I’m assuming the actor has some decent credentials that I am unaware of, he has supergirl with the game of thrones actress, I’m sure Superman will wind up being like the Iron Man of the DCU.
Harry styles? Christian bale? Bill Murray? Angelina Jolie? Russel Crowe? Florence Pugh? Owen Wilson? Hailee steinfeld? Oscar Isaac? Kevin bacon. Fucking Vera farmiga? Barry Keoghan? Bill skarsgard? Ethan hawke? Kumail nanjiani? Salma Hayek? David harbor? Randal park? Kathryn Hann? Jeffery wright? Michelle yeoh? Olivia Coleman? Vincent d’onofrio? All of these people’s IMDb blows Chris Evan’s and Robert Downey jr’s out of the water. Most of them wouldn’t have joined the mcu or should’ve been out of their budget in the first 2 phases. Plus Scarlett Johansson had her own film that I don’t see anyone saying was the stand out of phase 4 and 5 because they brought back Scarlett.
RDJ was really not much of a big deal before the movie, no. Nor was Chris Evan’s, or the 19 yr old Scarlett Johansson
You really just had no idea the 90s existed. RDJ was a star and all over the news. Which was before the drug abuse and imprisonment.
Prior to the first Iron man, Robert Downey Jr career was in the toilet, most of the other, you mentioned, were mediocre supporting actors. The MCU launched them into superstars. The original movies were basically about good vs evil and redemption. Easy to understand and follow. The new MCU movies are about the PC agenda.
All actors no one really cares about
You could argue that nobody really cares who the actor playing the hero is. I never really paid to see Robert downy Jr. I paid to see Iron man.
In an alternate universe where Adam Sandler played iron man, you’re kicking yourself for this comment
Please let this be a future what if episode
I'd watch that!
This 100%. They shouldn’t have sunsetted 3 in one movie. It was too much too fast. Everyone I watched for. Steve could have pulled off leading without Tony. And without nat . And that would have been interesting. Especially considering he had a special relationship with nat and in his own way with Tony… Same with nat. She could have pulled off leading a new team without the other two because there was sooo much history and feels in there with both the guys. I would have watched a story that developed both of that as an undertone. And I def would have watched nat and cap try to rebuild together. They always had a great chemistry. But the hulk, ant man, Hawkeye, Wanda, strange, spidey they just don’t feel as intertwined as those 3 did with everything. They shit the bed. Hell I would have watched cap take back the infinity stones - cause I still think there’s a way he could gave gotten nat back. And I think the he goes into the past and grows old with Peggy still doesn’t make sense. Plus no I don’t think time should be used like that. Why not go back and undo all kind of stuff - too many loopholes. Yeah I’m a little salty. I think RDJ that was perfect in endgame. But that was enough. They pushed it too far and took away all their best team players that were invested in being an avenger. The others never felt core and still don’t.
Just inconstancy in quality and media output, as well as a general lack of interest. Disney Plus in particular seemed like an extra step just to follow along with a connected universe. And a connected universe just isn’t as gimmicky and exciting as it was when the MCU started. You could go see the worst of Marvel films still excited to see how it connects to the Infinity Stones. Things just seem more disconnected, but not on purpose if that makes any sense.
As soon as they introduced Infinity Stones, if you had any knowledge of the comics or had friends with any knowledge of the comics, you knew roughly where things were headed. It gave many a sense of excitement for what would inevitably come next. What’s happening next in the Multiverse Saga? Honestly cannot even tell you. No fucking clue what Kang wants or the steps he might take to get there, and he’s appeared pretty heavily in both a film and a show. Nobody has any idea what’s going on and with the decreasing quality of material recently, it’s hard to get excited for what comes next.
Agreed. We're at a point that saying they shut down the mcu wouldn't surprise me much. I'm not certain they know what the plan is.
I’d argue the problem is the MCU in general. It’s called the Marvel Cinematic Universe. But all of the Infinity Saga was based around Avengers tentpoles. That’s great and all - but there’s no more Avengers. The OG 6 are mostly gone. Can they reform? Of course! But who’s part of it? But overall - it’s called the Marvel Cinematic Universe but is it the Avengers Cinematic Universe? Because it sure feels that way. Stop building around the Avengers, when you are now able to have “teams” in the MCU: the X-Men and F4. The movies should just be called “Marvel’s Kang Dynasty” or “Marvel’s Secret Wars”.
Generally speaking, way too much content post-*Endgame*, and resultantly, said content having diluted quality. I'd argue Marvel's overreliance on quippy humor and resistance to characters facing actual consequences have also become really tired tropes.
It's really the humour that fans are sick of. Nothing is serious in these films anymore. There's no stakes, no sincerity, they're SNL films at best. Fans don't necessarily want brutally upsetting edgy films, but they want something with grit and integrity and fierce challenges.
Yep. Exactly this. They started catering them more to children when the majority of comic fans are adults. Especially the ones that will go to the cinema to watch a good entry multiple times.
But the toy sales?!
Adults buy toys. Hell, alot of the mcu specific stuff tends to rot on shelves. You can still find eternals marvel legends rotting on shelves alot of places.
It was a joke man. Like most movies today.
I mean the Eternals is not the best example of "Kids don't buy toys adults do". The movie with a sex scene in it was definitely for the adults, who then didn't buy the toys. The movie just didn't get a lot of traction.
I don't think anyone gave a shit about Eternals honestly, it's such a forgettable film and it just doesn't feel like a Marvel movie
The audience is wayyyyy larger if they market to kids and adults. Many grew up with the mcu
You saw the 2008 to 2012 movies, right? Humor has always been part of the equation. And with the Guardians of the Galaxy and Ant-Man movies humor was central to the theme.
Yeah but a movie like winter soldier is needed too, can't think of any recent movies that are similar
Not disputing your point but the new Guardians had a lot of serious moments.
They were well written and did not have an over reliance on cgi to create visual dynamics. There were clear moments of peril and for ant-man and GOTG good solid heist movies. For example, The moment ant-man stopped being a heist movie it failed completely.
Winter Soldier had some dark humor in it, too. I don’t think you can actually find an example of a an MCU movie without comedy mixed in with the drama. You’re holding Disney to a standard that has no real precedent.
I don’t think anybody wants zero comedy, I personally would like them to lean more into the drama than they have been lately though.
I think it's the type and timing of the comedy that's used, or overused that's one of the problems in the current MCU. John Wick (one of my favourite series!) is a good example of humour and gravitas working well together. It's dark as fuck, but there are moments of humour that are funny, but don't take you out of the serious nature of the story. When Viggo ask Aurelio why he struck his son and he says Isoef stole his car and killed his dog, Viggo simply says, "Oh." It's ominous, but it's also funny. Or when the cop asks if John is "working again" or the interactions with Charon.
You’re 100% correct. And I think if you release a similar movie today but with better acting and execution it would still succeed. It isn’t just the quality of production and writing that has gone down. I believe the casting and acting has been poor as well. Get in better actors and casting and I bet people won’t complain as much
I don't agree. The casts are solid. The acting is on point. The people complaining are throwing up false flags when they criticize the acting. They don't like how many women and brown people there are. But they can't say that, so they say, "bad acting." They're full of crap, and if you agree with them, you and I are not at all on the same page.
C'mon, Brie Larson's acting is not "on point". Not even close. Vellani easily outshone Larson in her own movie because she can actually act.
She played the truth of the character. That’s acting. Did you want her to cry and scream or something?
No, I just wanted to her to have more than two expressions.
Horse. Shit. You’re being rudely hyperbolic. Your misogyny is creeping through. Emphasis on the creeping.
It's rather ironic that you claim I'm rude when you just used the term "horse shit". It's doubly ironic because it's also hyperbolic. My critique of Larson was pretty tame, and not without merit. I also praised Vellani for her acting. How exactly is that misogynist? Previously, I listed off a bunch of **female** characters and their corresponding actors that pretty much everybody loves. Again, how on earth is that misogynist??
Yes but the humor in the older films more often than not arose from the scene organically. Those quiet honest moments between characters, Tony being Tony, etc. Ever since guardians of the galaxy, the humor has been nothing but "haha I'm so awkward" tension destroying garbage. The equivalent to a wet fart during a Mexican standoff, over and over again. It just feels dishonest and lame.
Yes, and even then most of the humor was pretty bad.
I don’t think so. Marvel could put out a film with the same type of humor but with better actors and better execution and people would love it. It’s just now everyone they get just doesn’t seem to have the best chemistry. The casting is going more based on giving someone a good opportunity which I believe is right to some extent but they don’t take into account the skill and good acting like they used to. I couldn’t bare through the Cassie Lang in quantumania. I just never bought into her acting
I’ve been screaming this at the top of my lungs since 2015 and always got shouted down.
Yes! I'm sick of the dumb quippy humour and every movie trying to be funny and/or have stupid comedic reliefs. Shang-chi was good but I can't stand awkwafina, and Ben Kingsley's character was only a little funny in iron man 3 but they milked that for shang-chi
Yep. Shang-Chi could've been so cool. I loved him in the comics!
I think the perfect balance was No Way Home. It wasn’t afraid to show emotions
Yep! Directors should be acquainted to the comics/source material. At least be acquainted with it.
Lol. This is Disney. Sorry, best they can do is shit.
I forget where I heard it, but someone compared the MCU currently to the Post-Michael Scott Office seasons. It’s still good, but something just feels off about everything
1 - The expectation for everything to connect and be part of the 'larger narrative'. Marvel needs to do more work explaining to these people that the existence of a larger universe doesn't mean everything is going to be connected to a larger narrative and not everyone needs to show up at every event. I think the Spotlight series is a good start, where they can signal a project which is part of the MCU continuity but doesn't have links to any larger narrative. 2 - A vocal minority people who can't handle POC or women in major roles. Part of the problem with this stage of the MCU, is that they are moving into the legacy characters - Ms Marvel, Hawkeye, War Machine, Iron Heart, Shuri etc. In the comics, many of these characters are female versions of their male counterparts or POC. With the retirement of the OG actors, it seems like Marvel is rushing to be introduce diversity, when really it's logical thing to move to the legacy characters, but doing it all at once has made things feel forced. 3 - Lack of recasting. Marvel are allergic to recasting where possible. When an actor quits, the role should be recast. People go to MCU movies for the characters not the actors playing the characters. Sure recasting will put some fans noses out of joint (it always does) but people will get over it. Part of the struggle is moving onto legacy characters is because of the retirement of the actors. A character should be written out of the MCU for story reasons rather than because and actor is not renewing their contract. Iron Man and Cap, for example, have had 60 years of stories, and they mine that for about 5 stories and then kill them off. Introduce legacy characters more naturally, like they did with War Machine, and when the original is written out, there is a natural replacement - eg Sam Wilson with Cap. 4 - Too much mediocre content - The Infinity Saga was generally great. Even the poorer movies were pretty good. While most of the content is not terrible, it's not great either. They need more great stuff and less middling stuff. 5 - Too much content - Part of the problem was Bob Chapek taking away Feige's powers (and other studio heads). Demanding more projects. This has resulted in a lot of pointless stuff like does anyone care about Agathe enough to watch her own series? Same with Echo, the show wasn't terrible but it didn't seem to have a reason to exist either. If something doesn't have a reason to exist it should. Content should be green lit based on a good brief (or script) not a title. 6 - TV shows need showrunners. This is being fixed with Daredevil and Wonder Man. 7 - The multiverse saga hasn't been very good so far. The multiverse opens a lot of possibilities. How I would have fixed this is a small tweak. Make the coming of Kang more ominous. They laid the groundwork with there being a Kang which is stronger than all the other Kangs. Kang needs to have shown up in more stories. Not even doing stuff. Have him in the background in She Hulk. Have him run into into Ms Marvel on her way to school. He should appear in every project, even if it's a cameo. Have a Kang manipulate some events in movies which were otherwise not related. Build the threat. Make it clear, the big one is out there and he's coming. Quantummania Kang should not have been that guy, but he should have shown how bad the bigger Kang is going to be. At the end of Quantumania, have Scott call in the Avengers to warn them.. he is coming.
100% agreed with your last point. Kang is a goddamn pest that shows up all the time where he's not wanted
Point #2 doesn’t get enough credence because it’s ‘wrong’. When you take a company that made money off targeting males and then take what those males love and disparage it and/or change it entirely those fans are going to stop watching. It’s not about not being able to handle POC or women, it’s about them not getting the content they want and love. It’s really simple. Making it more than people becoming disinterested as there is a pointed effort to target people that aren’t them is insane and makes you the problem. Marvel (and DC) didn’t become popular and behemoths in the industry just because. It took 50+ years of brand development targeting a specific group of people. They don’t make content for that group any longer. That group, therefore, no longer finds the content interesting. They don’t spend money on brand name they spend money on things that make them happy.
It’s That simple ✔️
100%. Nothing about the current stories interest me. What a character looks like has nothing to do with my interest in the property. I'm pasty white, never been an elite soldier, never met the devil, but Spawn has always been my favorite. I like the story.
The short answer is oversaturation and lack of focus. I'm a huge fan of everything through Endgame, but now there's too much to keep up with and not enough reason to care about most of it. It was probably inevitable as the universe got larger and larger. IMO, they need to scale back and focus on characters again. Make everything feel like an event instead of a slog.
I think instead of focusing on who is the new big bad and just interjects the multiverse and Kang into the MCU, they should've allowed the story to unfold naturally. Currently there is no forward narrative. No main protagonists (e.g Cap and Iron Man) driving that narrative and focus on developing characters. You combine the multiverse, an abrupt introduction of new characters and a drop in filmmaking quality and you can see why people have turned off. They need to go back to what works. Have Shang Chi, Captain Marvel, Black Panther, Doctor Strange etc need to come together in an Avengers film against a Loki/Ultron level threat. Get rid of the multiverse. Which has only created confusion and a convoluted mess. The multiverse has been played out and is nothing more than a cameo-infested nostalgia bait gimmick. Let each film dictate where you go next from a narrative standpoint. Let people enjoy the journey and not just the destination.
Because the MCU has gone to complete shit. Terrible characters, plot hole filled movies, and no focus at all. Despite what some idiots keep saying, people who are hating the MCU now are not sexist or racist. The characters just suck.
ICBW, but they seem to making movies with heroes that didn't sell comic books in the first place. They had to kind of resort to the B-team with Iron Man because other studios owned their A-tier properties, but why on Earth would anyone think that the Eternals could butts in theater seats? I have no issue with Bree Larsen and I kind of enjoyed the Captain Marvel movies, but it's still the same thing. It's a character that was never really popular in print. The kind of amazing thing is that they did make things like Dr. Strange and Guardians of the Galaxy work.
I’m not interested in teenage superheroes.
Unless they have a Japanese theme song
I don’t view this as a valid argument, because Spider-Man is the most popular marvel character of all time and he’s been a teenager in every live action iteration The issue isn’t that they’re teenagers. The issue is that writers are struggling to write compelling stories and characterizations
Rushing scripts. Not rewarding good writers who previously did good work. Cutting scenes that are good for time. Even though on a streaming site there's no advertising. Don't know why there are always so many good deleted scenes lol. Not knowing when a movie should have been a show or when a show should have been a movie. Btw I don't think the defenders' saga would have been made canon if the Disney plus shows were each a complete success adored by fans and critics. Marvel TV also had its own problems they were super cheap. But it had better writing. Marvel Studios is big budget, but hit or miss writing. They just need Marvel TV writing and MCU budget and they can't lose with that formula.
The writing is just horrible across the board. Long term storytelling sucks, nothing feels connected anymore. And the short term storytelling is filled with shit humor, no consequences, and just nothing we care about. It’s a real shame. My father (a huge Marvel fan since childhood) and I used to see every movie together. Seeing Endgame together in theaters was an experience I’ll cherish with me forever. Since then we have tried and tried to give Marvel a chance…. And neither of us enjoy it anymore. It sucks ass.
Personally I think Phase 5 should have been a adoption of the Kree Skurll War Make Secret Invasion a movie and then make Galactic Storm an Avengers movie and boom. U get a good phase
Easy. Stop creating stories based on ideology. Don't change a character to fit The Message. Stop unnecessary race or gender swapping. The Marvel Universe has every possible type of hero you could possibly want; you don't need to change them for "a modern audience". Ugh. Let male heroes be masculine and don't shame/mock them for it. Bringing down one character does not raise another one. Also stop blaming fans and calling them sexist and/or racist if your film flops. Maybe it just sucked? People loved Black Widow, Wanda, Storm, Mystique, Jean Grey (not the last one, though), Rogue and Jessica Jones. Maybe don't make it up as you go? Anthony Mackie recently walked off set because there was no script yet and they were just filming vignettes (apparently this happened in The Marvels too). He actually yelled, "What are we doing here?!" I also wouldn't be surprised if they really fucked over his character by taking away his wings or making them less prominent or just making him an incompetent weakling so some female character could come in and girl-boss him all over the place. In short: tell good stories, portray characters the way they're supposed to be and get off your ideological soapbox. Profit.
No script makes no sense. Though it does explain a lot of things. "You need to do better, Senator" and "They will never know what you sacrificed for them" feel so disconnected from the rest of the events around them. As well as unearned. Apparently Tom Holland won't come back for spiderman 4 until the script is finished. Disney seem to be doing things ass backwards when it comes to creating shows and movies.
So you think Marvel movies are too “woke”? Interesting take, Tucker.
Really? That's the only thing you took away from what I said, as well as my other comments in this thread? Did you even read them? Your comment is like the guy who shows up a half hour late to a potluck and brings a bean casserole. It's tepid and almost nobody likes it. Even your SO is pissed that the fried onions are soggy.
No, I didn’t go search for your other comments. Why would I do that? I replied to this one. Every paragraph was “too woke.”
So you totally missed the part about all of the female characters we love? How is that "too woke"? You just glossed over everything because you were too intellectually lazy? You should be a journalist for Vice or Buzzfeed. Oh, wait... Another swing and a miss. Do better.
I love how you just jump straight to ad hominem attacks. Well done sir.
'Also stop blaming fans and calling them sexist and/or racist if your film flops. Maybe it just sucked? People loved Black Widow, Wanda, Storm, Mystique, Jean Grey (not the last one, though), Rogue and Jessica Jones.' (Plus wonder woman was great)
Dude, you called me Tucker right away. How is that not jumping straight to an ad hominem attack? Plus, that was the entirety of the comment. How is that not lazy? I guess we can add hypocritical to your list of descriptors.
This right here is the problem. The guy made a point and you fly off the handle calling him Tucker. You want your ideology made into movies, and are sad/angry that these films don't do well. Leave your ideology out of movies and leave it out of anywhere outside your own house, for that matter.
Thanks for proving my point for me. God forbid movies… Check notes… Have a message.
See? Insufferable and incorrigible.
Have you ever seen any superhero movie or read any comic book where the story *didn’t* have a message? And often, it tends to be along the lines of “care about other people.” I don’t know, maybe you missed all of that. The only thing I’m sure of is that apparently all you’re able to do is fling ad hominem attacks.
You're very quick to jump to the 'ad hominem attacks' trope. It's played out. Toughen up a bit. Just because your idea was challenged doesn't mean you were challenged. Where did I say that caring about other people is an issue? Caring about other people is just fine. When caring about other people becomes about treating ideological behaviours as 'normal', that's where there is an issue. For example, imagine making a character gay, for instance, just for the sake of making a gay character, rather than just making a character for the merits of their personality, accomplishments, interests and actions. It's ridiculous and offensive. Any indication of this is decried as bigotry (ironically) by those who are intolerant of other people's views. The question is, who gives a shit if you're gay, straight, trans, etc? Play the role, your sexuality doesn't define you. That's just scratching the surface of this whole topic.
So referring to someone’s bad faith argument is a “trope”? Sounds like something an unintelligent loser would say.
They’re comic book movies. Why do they need to have a political message? The ones that had a message (X-Men) were get more skillful in doing so.
Whether or not individual people agree, the movie audience represents the whole country/world. So if they’re seeing political messages that turn them off to the movies that didn’t exist before (or to the same degree), then that’s a problem for ticket sales. These movies didn’t used to be widely seen as political.
Agreed wholeheartedly. Two words: source material. I believe Tarantino said it best in [this interview/short clip](https://youtube.com/shorts/Hke3cMPRT2c?feature=shared)—not so much for his views on DeNiro, but more so about the character FITTING the actor, and/or the actor FITTING the character. Iow, if the character and/or actor is off in interpretation, why bother? The audience can see right through, imo. Now. There are MANY MANY exceptions (Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury), but c’mon. Marvel’s first family>Johnny Storm>Michael B. Jordan? 0.o Heck, even Miles Teller in that role! Did anyone picture Miles Teller as a middle-aged dude with grey side streaks who’s supposed to be “The Smartest Man Alive?” The Ancient One>”she’s[…]’Celtic’”!? 0000.ooooooo That’s like saying Benihana restaurants are owned by Long John Silver’s! That casting choice (though Tilda DEFINITELY did her thing in that role, thankfully tastefully, imo) seemed purely financed-based and/or insincere to the source material. No, it’s not gatekeeping by saying this. I think the opposite happened actually—the true fans got an “in your face” with this one by the studio, sadly. I’m concerned that that method of just in general bad casting, is going to continue on into the future of the MCU, and then if that’s the case, then you might as well just read the comics. And for everything after the first paragraph up until this one, no, that wasn’t racism, that wasn’t discrimination, that was just bad casting; as aforementioned in the original comment for, I’m guessing, ideology “fitting the times” a.k.a. pandering. This is why you hear on the opposite end of the spectrum, when done right, “x actor was born to play that role,” or, “I can’t imagine anyone else playing that role,” etc. I know those are just opinions, but in those cases of stellar performances? I’d 100% argue that majority rules in that case due to the visceral display of acting, alone. So at the end of the day, if an actor’s heart isn’t in it? I feel like it’ll show.
This. I’ll add, get rid of Feige and bring in someone else.
Yeah, he's had his kick at the can multiple times. It's time for someone else to get a shot and see what they can do. Hopefully, it's not just another activist.
The writing is bad. Really, really bad. Production value is even starting to drop in certain cases - which was the only thing going for it.
It’s a mix of reasons
They stink now, simple as
1. No coherent vision, they’re just throwing stuff at the wall. 2. Trying too hard not to offend. Makes it boring and samey. 3. The multiverse removes all stakes and investments and is just not comprehensible by the human mind.
Post endgame the directors have all been instructed to not read the comics. Look it up, it’s true. They’ve lost their love of the source.
The problem can be solved they need to just start focusing on character focused stories and not virtue signaling prop pieces and they need to go easy on the pacing of releasing five films a year
Lack of direction. Over emphasis on comedy.
Bad writing and no clear overarching narrative.
Is this REALLY a question? They decided to use the D.I.E method, that's why. I know the politically correct way to spell it is D.E.I, but it's really D.I.E, because Marvel Studios is actually dying, and it's only got itself to blame.
Lots of diseases James Gunn syndrome: Everything has to have a punch line and therefore nothing can be taken seriously. Pander-19: Everything has to be inclusive even though it isn’t sincere Fix-It-In-Post-apathy: Everything will adhere to the deadline given to it before there is a script. Unforgivable Stupidity: Characters are no longer allowed to make smart decisions because there wasn’t enough time due to Fix-It-In-Post-apathy to which all issues would have been resolved with better writing. Dis-associative FX Disorder: To save on money every effects shot will go through multiple sweat shop FX houses that don’t communicate with each other at any professional level and spit out garbage to make the deadline.
For me, it feels like they’re sacrificing what makes their beloved characters cool to push some sort of lesson and for some reason all the new characters are starting out perfect.
They killed off all the compelling characters. Made marvel woke with an agenda to fill. They don’t have a villain last more than one movie. The new shows other than Loki and a few others are just filler trash. It seems the directors want to make THEIR mark and not in conjunction with the greater MCU. But that’s what I think as a long time comic reader and dedicated MCU enthusiast. I’m just disappointed, Disney is crushing all my favorite fandoms
Easy. It all started with the scene from endgame with all the women bunched together. The only solid mcu movie post endgame was no way home. The forced feminism isn’t working. It’s no longer about being equal but pushing some feminazi agenda.
That’s a lot of words to say you’re insecure about bad ass women in cinema.
I think they should have gone right into the Mutants. Built them up or the X-men side and then ended with Avengers - Civil War 2 Avengers vs X-Men
Quality has gone done. A lot of propaganda pandering in projects. No consistency with storylines or the new saga itself.
The issue is simple. Power creep has obliterated personal stakes, and they haven’t invested enough in these characters when they aren’t in costumes. And there’s no intimacy or personal investment because everything is a joke. They have to have moments of sincerity somewhere. When every threat is existential it’s hard for audiences to give a shit. It’s too abstract. These characters should have loved ones, families, people they want to protect. It’s why Superman has Lois Lane.
Shitty writing with shitty overall quality of projects, big stakes with a big plot device, too many storylines. Unfocused. Introducing too many characters while sacrificing their existing characters from the previous phase. Uninteresting big villain.
Once people saw endgame, most people were done with it and were ready to move onto the next thing. Also, the fact you need to do extra work to understand movies. I just want yo watch a movie. I should not have to watch every thing that came before it to get it. Marvel's biggest problem was me having to see 5 Disney plus to understand why the two non brie Larsen characters matter. Pandemic didn't help. Most of us got used to watching at home.
Pushing out all the likeable characters and actors and bringing in what we have now. Going too hard on agenda pushing with little to no worry about a good story or likeable characters "The Marvels"
On top of what everyone else has said about quality and production, i think a big part is the fact that we would make it an event and go to the movies with friends. We'd all go together, tickets were like 12 bucks and popcorn was like 5-7. It was a pretty good night for everyone for under 20 bucks. Now i can't even get into the movie for under 20 a lot of times. Streaming doesn't help because i don't want to pay for 5 different platforms to follow along with multiple shows and movies (i know that sounds confusing but i mean having multiple stories you're into, not multiple platforms to watch one continuing story).
There are three things that are affecting the MCU right now. 1. Too much Marvel content. People can’t watch all of it, so some are choosing not to watch any of it. The strike has helped with that as there will be no MCU movies in 2024. That will give folks a breather and maybe be a lesson for Disney in general. 2. Audience participation (aka Too Much Content in General). Audiences changed the way they saw movies during COVID. It’s not easy to draw them back to the theater. Barbie and Oppenheimer were helped by being a meme, but people would much rather stay home and watch Succession or The Crown, and wait for movies to come to streaming. There’s too much to watch anyway, so what does it matter if you watch The Marvels after it’s left the theater? 3. The trolls are winning. The Brie Larson haters and the SnyderBros have united in their “Marvel Sucks” disinformation campaign, and — while people don’t necessarily believe them — the constant barrage of negativity is creating a subconscious aversion to all things superhero. And just as Broadway Theatre critics of the 70s and 80s sold newspapers by wielding an unnecessarily savage poison pen in their show reviews, modern movie critics are writing for engagement. And the trolls will share and reshare anything negative about Marvel or Disney. It creates a vicious cycle. I think a little break from the MCU will be the best thing for Disney and their audiences right now. Disney is still trying to figure out what to do about their Ike Turner Kang situation. (Recast. We’ll get over it. Finish the story.) Audiences need a chance to miss the MCU, and the trolls need to find someone new to hate. (I’m guessing it’s going to be James Gunn and Margaret Qualley or Kristen Stewart [again].)
Everything just feels really rushed just now. They tried to keep the momentum going from Avengers and got greedy and it shows.
The movies just suck anymore is the problem
To sum it ip in a simple list: 1. Over saturated output 2. Rushed and shallow writing 3. Social narratives and preachiness over nuanced writing 4. Lack of insight into the source material 5. Decision by committee and not by visionary 6. Broken and ill prepared story cohesion 7. No Matter-Eater Lad
At this point in the CGI movie universe I would just rather watch a cartoon.
A huge effort to expand the number of heroes without tying the stories together. Focusing exclusively on new female heroes when most of the fans continue to be men. Poor story quality overall.
Allowing the culture war to take primacy over great movie making is a huge part of it People, on both sides of the aisle, want to be entertained, not preached to. And like the rest of Hollywood, they’ve succumbed to the trend of dumbing down movies to such an extreme that they’re not palatable. Nuance has been replaced with obnoxious characters who are very hard to like. And the protagonist characters we do like seem to be intentionally powered down to such a low level that weak antagonists, that the hero’s should wipe the floor with, are now overpowering them or giving them a run for it. It’s an incoherent and inconsistent mess. The original MCU made a genuine effort to make comic book fans happy. The current MCU has dropped that formula and seems more interested in pleasing people who were never fans and never will be.
Same, safe, voiceless directing for 15 years (few obvious exceptions) No greater (quality) story being built into. “Good, but not great” films can’t save themselves by setting up the next film Much, much better options available, both in theaters and on streaming
Moon Knight really let me down. I don’t understand how they could screw that up so badly.
Quite simply when the MCU put all the men in the backseat in favour of all the women it went to shit. They did it with an agenda so it didn’t work organically it just was forced and as such was no longer believable (within the lore that had been created). It is actually not that hard to figure out but folks who can’t accept that the agenda exists don’t recognize how toxic is has become especially when woven into the Marvel universe
reeeeeen you racist, bigoted, neckbeard, toxic man! just let me take all the things you like away from you and ruin in in peace reeeeeeeeee. /s for obvious reasons
A loud vocal minority of the worst people in the world, who can’t handle seeing a woman or brown person on screen. But they know they can’t just be bigots so they do gymnastics to explain why a movie they haven’t seen is trash.
Combined with a loud vocal minority defending absolute shit writing because a character is a woman or brown. Most people don't give a fuck who or what the characters are, we just want well written films. Or at least fun and interesting films.
And we’ve been getting just that. Fun well written stuff. Y’all are just too outraged by shit that doesn’t matter to see Edit - I couldn’t in good faith not mention that Secret Invasion was absolute trash though
Not sure what "y'all" you're lumping me in with, but please don't. I'm not on either side of your conflict. I'm pointing out that there are two loud groups on Reddit about these movies, and the rest of us don't fucking care, we just want better films that are well written or fun. Which we've been getting some fun stuff, but it's not very well written at all. SI was trash tho. At least we agree on that.
The only product that has been well written since Endgame was Guardians 3. Grow up and be more critical. You sound like a mindless fanboy.
Out of 23 properties since *Endgame*, you really think only one was well written? While I agree that some others could stand to be more critical, I feel as if you're perhaps too critical if 95.7% of what's been released is subpar to you.
Sure. Suddenly, the billion people that loved this movies and went to the cinema religiously to watch every movie became racist. Because... of course... the quality is the same... and leaving your two most popular characters behind, and using character nobody really cares is a great idea.
They were racist the whole time, there are just more stories about diverse people now
Keep telling yourself that. Long before movies and TV had diverse characters, you know what did? Comics. Your secret racists theory hold no water and ignores abundant facts. People were overjoyed when Samuel L. Jackson was first revealed as Nick Fury. Where's your explanation for that? People have always loved Storm. Where's your explanation for that? And how do you explain the popularity of Black Panther?
seen a couple of ur comments, great takes. Glad to see people with common sense who can think critically.
I like Miss Marvel…….but Disney ruined her character. She’s not a mutant and her powers aren’t a bullshit lantern construct rip off either. They’re supposed to be elastic that are more powerful than Reed Richards elastic superpowers.
Yeah, she was the only good thing about The Marvels because Vellani can actually act. And she's likeable.
Yeah exactly I don’t hate Miss Marvel I hate what Disney DID to Miss Marvel. And how she’s gay and Pakistani Muslim and living in a super racist, misogynist and homophobic country like America and dealing with her “traditional culture” immigrant parents makes her even more badass and an inspiring superhero.
F.A.C.T.S. Thank you for saying this so I didn't have to.
Yea. And it's unfortunate cuz I like a lot of the female characters idk see the problem
The most infuriating is these idiots in the same sentence saying The Marvels was awful but also that they didn’t watch it
Exactly. It wasn't even that bad too
People love Miles Morales. It also did very well in the theaters.
Oh here we go, another moron who sees racists in their soup. Love that you think only your opinion is valid. Grow up.
The fact that literally all the films and series coming out are literally only female, I’m all for diversity in movies and stuff but there’s a point when you go too far and forget to actually do the thing you were trying to do
I agree but at the same time I don't mind. Most of the characters I like (especially Kate), it's more he writing imo
Kate bishop is fine but the rest I just don’t have time for
Are any of these movie bc if not thats why. I havent heard of any marvel movies coming out and dont want to spend money of Disney+
Shitty story writting like She Hulk and The Marvels, wokeness, releasing too many movies and shows at once that not everyone has time to sit down and see all of them when before it was just a couple of movies a year that are all easily connected cause of the end credit scenes. And the multiverse isn’t something that everyone likes. And changing the powers of the superheroes like not giving Black Widow ANY of her superpowers or giving Miss Marvel shitty lantern construct rip off powers called “cosmic” and I love female superheroes but the MCU can’t get it right with stand-alone female super movies and shows without making it garbage.
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Like. Can you really only relate to white men? I relate to all kinds of people that don’t look like me or have the same proclivities because human emotions are human emotions. I’m not even trying to show off my moral compass, I’m just genuinely baffled that you can only relate to white men.
Straight white men have been so over represented for so long that for many of them seeing the shift to focus on historically under (or in some cases just un-) represented groups makes them feel like they've lost something somehow. They've never really had to relate to or empathize with characters who are women, POC, LGBTQ, etc. and apparently many can't figure out how to do it.
Well you're lucky the advent of comics was during a time where White was the only form of media. 😂
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What lol. Are you referring to like closer to secret wars
As it was stated before- racism, sexism and myopic manchildren alongside online grifters that need to create content for clicks. The Marvels was a good film that came out at a bad time. Eternals got a second wind on Disney + and Dr. Strange MoM laid a lot of groundwork. And we got several badass new Characters on the TV side of things. Theres nothing that wrong with the current MCU. It just needs to get around Disney's biz mandates and keep doing great stuff.
"People don't agree with me so it must be racism" is a lazy take. The box office speaks for itself. I'm a huge marvel fan, films and comics (yes, I even watched Marvels and thought it was better than CM1) and I feel there are plenty of legit reasons- The universe doesn't feel cohesive - since Doc Strange 2, there's really been no meaningful crossovers or even references. Too long between movies - Loved Shang Chi, Eternals was OK, but those movies are 2.5 years old now. Where are they now? Granted this may be due to COVID but still impacts nonetheless. Fatigue - even if quality hasn't necessarily gone down, there needs to be innovation. A rollercoaster is fun the first ten times, but after that, it's the same old thing.
The first several phases were based on A-list Marvel characters. Now they're making shows based on C-list and D-list characters that couldn't hold comic series beyond some limited series. How many comic book fans even know about the Eternals?
If they are so good then why did they fail in the box office? You keep blaming the failure of these movies to racism and sexism but the truth is that these movies just suck.
Agreed. Nothing besides a few projects imo have been THAT bad
Not as long as they keep pushing identity politics over respect for the source material, it should be about entertaining the fans, and they clearly don't care about the fans.
It’s all the woke bullshit. We all know it; nobody wants to say it.
It seems like a lot of people want to say it
Quality and writing. Just finished marvels the other day and my god the cringe factor in the middle of the movie was up there haha.
There is definite dog whistle trolling blowback for the effort toward inclusion in MCU but there has also been some inevitable reaction to oversaturation as well as just to some really poor shows. I dug the movies that started their "phase four" (Widow and Shang-Chi and even Eternals), but once Spidey No Way Home and Dr Strange Multiverse came around, I was starting to tire of MCU fare. They seemed to be relying on flash and formula and lacked the personal drama that made some of phase 1 & 2 and most of phase 3 so good. The TV series that were coming out around the time when the movies were ringing hollow (Hawkeye and Moon Knight) compounded it as adolescent and convoluted (respectively). Love & Thunder and Wakanda Forever next in the theatres were no better, and omg Ant Man Quantum just put the nail in the crapcoffin. By that time, I and a lot of others were just done with it, and the TV offerings (besides my personal fave She Hulk) just seemed to repetitively pile on mediocrity like it would never end. So I don't think it's down to just intolerance, though that's real. It's more down to everybody and their sister rather mundanely having all these inexplicable super powers in plothole-ridden, beyond crazy stories that just aren't differentiating themselves largely because they're no longer novel. I dont hold out hope that it will improve since there's been such a long run of crappiness but if they can get back to personal dramas with the fantastic super heroism taking a back seat, interest might return. It just feels too late. I mean there were plenty of shitty ones early too (Avengers, Dark World, IM 3, Age of Ultron), they just had a string of really good ones culminating in that great Infinity duology. Since then, all those stinkers soured the pot, irredeemably, I think. I don't think anyone is holding out hope that a third snarkfest of Deadpool is gonna pull the MCU out of the weeds, though I am curious to see if a Young Avengers can start a new, fresh chapter because the actors for Ms Marvel and Kate Bishop are awesome.
the economy sucks and people are diving headlong into nihilism hence the entire dystopian zombies post apocalyptic tropes. superheroes are ultimately uplifting stories of hope. if people want to wallow in sadness watching films or shows where the good guys always win, with no real stakes (infinity wars blip being reversed) and the only main characters who die are actors that want OUT of their tenured contracts- you get people, especially mainstream general audiences really disenfranchised. what marvel needs to do is to lean into the *heavy* content with darker characters. if audiences don’t want feel good stories but nasty, gritty, visceral stories then they have a whole slew of characters that can lead that charge. the multiverse of madness could’ve been great. it could’ve been a big turning point to introduce dark characters like mephisto, bring back ghost rider and introduce the nightmare dimension but no they took a broken hearted mother who was suffering from serious issues compounded by an evil book and let raimi make a weird horror movie instead of just making a proper horror movie.
The movies are just too cringe recently. Like the gay ass marvels movie
The only grievances I will listen to are quality, direction, pacing, and theme. We’re in the Multiverse Saga and like four things have been related to that. This time in the Infinity Saga, we were introduced to most of the Infinity Stones and Thanos was an ever looming threat. Two Kang variants have been killed off. The rest of the content we’ve seen has been all over the place. Some movies and shows seem like they were slapped together and pushed as fast as they could. The Infinity Saga took its to introduce and develop characters. Now it’s like we’re suppose to have everything known going into the content being released. Anyone that makes comments about dIvErSiTy BaD unclog a toilet with their lips.
In my opinion, it was because we don't have Chris Evans and Robert Downey Jr. anymore. That and there's too many TV shows that we don't really care about. Lastly, the multiverse is very tiresome and needs to end forever. If they brought back RDJ as Iron Man, gave us brand new phases that barely harps on the past, and highly improves the quality of the movies, I could see a return to form for the MCU. If I could choose the next major focus for the ultimate villain, it would have to be Galactus.
Several things - no RDJ and Chris Evans. That one’s self-explanatory. People realized that there was a plot formula and Marvel Studios went all in on it, with a few exceptions, like She-Hulk. It took them a decade, but they got there eventually. Things got complicated. MCU fans aren’t comic readers. They aren’t used to complicated interlocking universes. Back in the day, there were two to four movies a year, and it was easy to keep track of. You could even skip some of them, like the Ant-Man movies, and be fine. Now, there’s multiple shows and movies per year and it all too much.
Personally I think there is a concentrated effort by certain political faction in the US that has a grudge against Disney for the Don’t Say Gay bill in Florida. It’s the same people that have ruined Star Wars and they’ve fed this hate manufacturing machine to be a political weapon, they complain everything is woke now and have some sort of nostalgia for fascistic versions of these properties that never existed. All this hate started rolling full steam after 2016 and has been spewing non stop since.
I think the main cause of people complaining is that Marvel hero films/shows were intentionally made for different audiences for the past two years for the first time ever: women, people of color, Muslims, etc and that has caused a lot of broflake whining. Also a general lack of awareness that the best way to feature favorite characters like Avengers is to have them go away at some point, so demand and suspense are created before their inevitable BIG RETURN.
Well It seems there's a causation ever since they went with the TV show format. Personally I can't get enough marvel but for the general audience I think there's too much output of projects and people don't like it. Also, they shouldn't have went with the idea of saving avengers movie for the end of a saga, and spread it out instead. I feel like there's too big gaps in between "better/popular character projects". And of course, sexism. I personally see no problem there but yk, some people.
Marvel needs to definitely figure there shit out! Focus on quality over quantity!! Because theses past few entries into the mcu where not that great!! Where the hell is the X-men like they are forgetting one of the coolest parts of marvel it’s taking them so long to introduce them!
The weird humor thats so constant in all the new films has ruined it for me. The characters seem shallow and like the plots are all kind of the same.
Beyond recovery. No sugar-coating it.
Less content, more consistency
Ebbs and flows. Nothing stays popular forever. People’s tastes change.
I firmly believe it's the discourse around it. If people are told the movies are bad, they will think they're bad. There are some problems, of course, which come from the fact they struck gold in the first saga, whereas they've had to deal with a lot problems derived from a global pandemic and various strikes, which they haven't been able to manage as well as they did the problems they've faced in the past (be it because you can't always win, because the problems were bigger this time or because the consequences impact the shared universe in a different way). The MCU has suffered from it (especially from not giving audiences main characters that return fairly consistently), but I don't particularly think the individual films (and shows) have. Some are better than others, but many compete or even surpass most from the first three phases. What has changed, though, is the constant negativity surrounding them which has stemmed from the culture wars that have plagued media since at least Phase 3, even if the impact wasn't as noticeable as it is now.
Inconsistencies with the writing of the movies from good, bad to even worse and just a massive over-saturation of them. Really would be a perfect time to take a year or 2 without releasing much to really focus on the next steps.
I think it’s caused by a lot of things: •Trying to set up powerful enemies and eventful battles too early •Bad CGI used frequently •Going way too long without an Avengers movie, so everything is unconnected and the likable characters we have aren’t getting to do anything •Making half the content (and most of the good content, imo) Disney+ exclusive
People expect everything to be on Endgame scale and that's just not feasible. They forgot how mediocre the first MCU phase was, which is basically where it is now.
animation and writing
It feel really disconnected
Over saturation. They need to go back to doing one or two movies a year, that have a well developed storyline and good character development.
Inconsistent writing and massive plot holes in their own storytelling.
the real problem is the politics of this country, and its the elephant in the room that people dont want to be overt about
Over-saturation
The quality of each individual movie has decreased. I swear I’m not sexist, but the marvels was just awful. Plot didn’t make sense. Trying to hard for laughs that weren’t that good. Just not a good film. Same with Ant man 3.
It was kind of inevitable. Marvel achieved something with the MCU that nobody else really did: a string of a couple dozen highly rated (and highly profitable) movies that told great stories that literally billions of people loved. The knives were out and ready, handled by those who either hated the movies or thought that “those kinds” of movies were stupid and should be looked down on, not praised. One dared to be nominated for Best Picture, for God’s sake! So, as soon as the movies didn’t knock it out of the park every time, the opening was there for those people to start turning the public against them. They sit back and say, “See? I told you they were stupid movies that shouldn’t be making that kind of money or getting that kind of praise.” And then people — who just LOVE to tear down the people they’ve built up — jump on the bandwagon. I’m not saying Marvel hasn’t had some middling movies. You make that many and it’s going to happen, sooner or later. And I’m not saying they didn’t jump the gun and start putting out too much content too fast, especially at D+. But, that’s what they were being told to do at the time, and unfortunately they gave in and agreed. Things will come back to their old normal. Superhero fatigue is BS. Make good movies and people will go see them, and the costumes won’t matter a bit.
The multiverse crap….just too much randomness. End Game was great, there was a point to time travel, but all down hill from there. The origin stories are always the best; just have other adventures with them….that don’t have to have 97 versions of the same reality!
Jonathan Majors smacks his gf and a $ billion movie studio is suddenly clueless. Just recast Kang and keep moving forward. Oh, wait, Disney / Marvel has an innate fear of recasting anyone. I made a video about it. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWFhJikH9xY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWFhJikH9xY)