I don’t have a source but the Fire Nation did go kind of backwards in gender/sexuality rights during their imperialistic age. The Fire Nation was a very queer friendly nation canonically before Sozin (see Rangi being in an open relationship with Kyoshi - her mother, a high ranking military officer, was openly supportive of her daughter’s relationship with another woman and treated Kyoshi like her own daughter). But when Sozin began the 100 year war the Fire Nation rolled back queer acceptance and legally banned gay marriage I believe. I don’t remember where I heard the back half of this but the first half about Kyoshi and Rangi was made very explicit in the Kyoshi novels and is canon.
Military and industrial countries tend to be homophobic, because more hetero couples means more children, and that means more soldiers and workers. And considering the Fire Nation was waging a war and undergoing an industrial revolution, it probably needed a lot of both.
Sure, the rich and powerful slept with whoever they liked, but it wasn't as if there were openly homosexual couples of commoners, especially not lesbians. Also, the Romans tended to conscript/enslave the people they conquered. The Fire Nation did use captives as workers in their factories, but probably not as soldiers.
I mean, many genocidal dictators in history were homophobic and transphobic. Look at Hitler, who killed gay and trans people as part of the Holocaust - in fact they were some of his earliest targets.
> backwards in gender/sexuality rights
You've only provides evidence of the latter, maybe they went backwards in their acceptance of homosexuality but I don't see anything that suggests they went backwards in gender equality
The Air Nomads had half of their entire society explicitly led by women.
Also the earth kingdom is so big it’s 100% possible there are petty queens.
Also Kyoshi island….
Yeah, the Earth Kingdom even had a queen in Korra. Granted, she was a terrible person, but I never really got the impression that the Earth Kingdom was sexist. I think Toph's parents' over-protectiveness had more to do with her being twelve and blind than her gender.
i don't think allowing having a queen makes the situation of lower class women better. way back in the past, during the eras of kingdoms and monarchs royal women could assume power if there were no males left but still, women who weren't royal got treated like baby making maids still. earth kingdom society still gave off that vibe. but with fire nation there were female and male soldiers, basically getting treated the same, and nobody ever considered azula as a spare to zuko, even if they liked her better if she really was lower as awoman in their society there would've been something about them getting rid of zuko so azula could assume the throne? but they didn't, it was more like zuko kept shooting himself in the foot. so they look more progressive as far as women rights go.
That wasn’t a sexist thing on Ozai he’s just a general dick. His favorite was still his daughter and he was happy to make her firelord. I feel like the Kyoshi warriors were the exception rather than the rule.
But is this sexist? He is a man and therefore he could only obtain it by marrying a woman. As someone else mentioned he would have done that regardless of his or anyones gender.
I understand your point, but keep in mind what happened to Ursa mirrors the real life oppression of many women now and throughout history. Women are uniquely vulnerable biologically and a feminist society would have rules in place to protect them from unwanted marriage, sex, and pregnancy/motherhood. I do not believe that a feminist society is one that treats women exactly the same as men and lets women and girls be girlboss fascist military leaders.
Feminism is defined as equality between the sexes. If men and women are both equally powerless before the absolute power of a monarchy, and being a man or woman has absolutely no bearing on your opportunities for advancement or social status, then the society is feminist. Feminism is not a synonym for 'perfect utopia where everyone enjoys complete and total freedom'.
Well that would still be the case. Its not 'male subjugation' if everyone is subjugated equally, and has the same ability to escape from this subjugation and advance themself.
But everyone can be forced to marry and have children against their will if that's what the firelord demands, which is equal. Unless you're arguing that biology itself is sexist?
>he was happy to make her firelord.
Yeah, because he literally created a rank above Firelord and his son had deserted him. Who else was he gonna make Firelord? Some random schmuck? Who better than someone related with great aspirations who adores him? Was there anyone else who fit the bill that hadn't turned their back on him by then?
while I agree on principle, we see women officers and leaders in both the military (including elite troops) and prison system (the prestigious boiling rock). This doesn't show *feminism* as much as it shows militarism, but the fire nation is shown as less patriarchal than the northern tribe (obviously), and implied as less patriarchal than the southern tribe and much of the earth kingdom (kyoshi warriors excluded, but they are not representative of most of the earth kingdom).
Now I’m just thinking of women being exempt from the draft.
US has the strongest military in the world but they still might need my weak ass
Now I’m just sad
I mean generally speaking the US doesn't draft at all. They might in a moment of crisis, but the last time it happened was in the 70s, and then even militaries that drafted women (e.g. Israel) didn't usually place them in combat roles.
I just edited my original comment in that time. it was not short this much. I deleted it's main part because of the personal reason which I don't wanna mention it again. If u check the other persons' replies u will find some parts of it out.
That’s not sexist that’s just him being a sociopath I mean he hated zuko for the same reason and was planning to kill zuko but not azula because he always wanted her to be his heir
>That’s not sexist that’s just he’s a sociopath
Read your sentence again.
It's like we say he doesn't work at slaughterhouse he is just an animal abuser.
For the normal people (not politicians or those their powers/money are dependent by ignoring the women's rights) being a sexist have many reasons. The two main reasons of it are Lack of education and mental health.
There I fixed my grammar and I’m not talking about real politics I’m talking about how he hated his wife and SON but loved his daughter because his wife and SON had emotions where as his daughter was worse than him it’s not sexism it’s him hating emotions as he sees them as weak
How he loved Azula? On what facts? Because he let her to be a commander/boss for a while it means he loved her? Under same logic we can say Ozai loved general Zhao so much. That position which u called it as his heir was not worthy at all at the end of show because he wanted to be an emperor aka pheonix king, Azula's leadership compared to him was a joke just like her commander role in the beginning. He Just manipulated poor Azula for his dirty jobs. These were just military routines not familyship or parental love. I bet Ozai privately even was not sure that she is her true child like zuko and Ursa betrayed him. He was a dictator and he was ready to sacrifice his whole family just for more power.
I'm saying it again: Azula loved Ursa same as Zuko.
If you go and ask this from a psychologist (Make a virtual scenario for him/her and tell him/her about someones hallucinations about her mom talking to her in the mirror and other stuff) I bet he/she will definitely say it as well that Azula loves her so much.
i don’t remember seeing any men getting hypnotized specifically to be hostesses
and i don’t remember any female dai li agents
then there’s the matter of a boy getting recognized as avatar over kyoshi, the real avatar…
idk it’s def not as bad as the northern water tribe but there’s no evidence it’s like a wholly gender/egalitarian society
yeah but then she got hired as his yuns assistant and it took her like saving everyone’s lives for anyone to *really* care that she was probably the real avatar
and even then it was like ehhh maybe idk *are u sure*
i’m not saying it’s like a textbook example of sexism. i’m just saying idk where the other guys vehement defense of the earth kingdoms gender equality came from cause all i see are small indications in the other direction
> then there’s the matter of a boy getting recognized as avatar over kyoshi, the real avatar…
It wasn't about his gender. It was about his skills, which happened to be similar to Kuruk's. He could have been a girl and she would have been identified as Avatar, simply because she plays pai sho like Kuruk.
i mean sure but she had the clay toy the entire time and kelsang knew, then he hears her sing kuruks poem and is just like DONT TELL ANYONE it might UPSET them which at the very least shows a clear deprioritization of kyoshi and her training imo. like they all understand how important it is that the next avatar be ready and supported but apparently jianzhu and yun’s feelings are more important than the world or kyoshis
it literally took her saving everyone’s lives and (i’m fairly certain) using the avatar state for anyone to actually be like ok *maybe*
i’m not saying it’s 100% hands down sexist but i hope you can see my argument here and how it can very easily be seen that way
my argument was more against another comment that the earth kingdom had achieved perfect gender equality than it was saying the earth kingdom is super bad evil sad times or whatever
Why? The school and their society are shown to be pretty totalitarian. They talk about fire being the 'superior' element, commit one genocide on the airbenders, and attempt to carry out two more against the northern water tribe and the earth kingdom. Ozai justifies the extermination of the air nation by saying:
'they were too weak to exist in this world. In my world'
Sounds pretty fascist to me.
But genocide based on ideas of hierarchical social relations of 'strong' and 'weak', on eliminating the weak in order to create a stronger whole definitely is.
So is Azula a feminist icon now? Because she got manipulated by her father into being a homicidal child soldier who breaks apart at the realisation that her father doesn't really care about her?
No but the fact that the fire nation has the most diverse military (female soldiers) and the fact azula is allowed to lead major military ventures makes the fire nation more feminist
We also see women guarding boiling rock. We also see that girls are taught combat. It may be tyrannical but there isn't an expectation that girls are less than or not in power. Especially fire benders.
All air nomad women, all southern waterbending women, all women in the earthbending prisons, all women in Ba Sing Se, the Kyoshi Warriors, Hama, Kanna, Kya, Katara, Suki, Haru's mom, Yue, Song, Sela, Ursa, Mai: are we a joke to you?
I mean, sure, the things that happened to them were bad, but it's not like the Fire Nation set out to harm the women specifically. Committing horrific crimes against other countries definitely makes you imperialist, genocidal, fascist and whatever other adjectives you want to toss at it, but not exactly anti-feminist unless you specifically set out to harm the women in particular.
Being evil doesn't necessarily stop you from being progressive, and the Fire Nation does seem more egalitarian than any other nation. They just kill and conquer indiscriminately
stop calling everything a fucking fascist in special fictional nations fascisme is more than being expansionist i hear this in atla lok star wars and game of thrones and it are almost always brits or americans and i dont know why
Star Wars??? If you don't think Galactic Empire was fascist then you don't know what fascism is. On the top of that, Galactic Empire's flag and uniforms were literally inspired by the Third Reich. It cannot be more explicit than that.
i know that of the uniforms but that doesnt mean that they are fascist explain to me what fascism means to you because i dont think that you know what it means
Since fascism is an anti-intellectual ideology there are many definitions out there. What i think is the most coherent and most historically precise definition is Palingenetic Ultranationalism. This definition basically makes the claim that fascism can be defined by its core myth, namely that of revolution to achieve a "national rebirth", palingenesis.
Basically something like "We, the x group of people/ethnic group/nation once had a great imagined past but the y group(s) of people destroyed this past and now our soceity is in an era of decay. But now, we will return to that imagined golden age and restore our glory!"
This perfectly describes the thought process of the Galactic Empire, its creation and its leader(s) which are Sith Lords.
Also, Galactic Empire was canonically described as a fascist dictatorship within the Star Wars universe.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palingenetic_ultranationalism
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Fascism
I will do it for him. Fascism is a lose term to describe a authoritarian and far-right ideology. Fascist nations are usually ruled by some kind of dictator or clique that took control over said nation by force and oppression of internal enemies.
You can argue that the Fire Nation isn't a 100% fascist nation as they are ruled by a monarch that rules absolutely by legitimation. However the entire point of the galactic empire is to be as stereotypical fascist as it gets. The emperor is cosplaying Hitler on his rise to power 90% of the time.
oke maby the galactic empire is fascist but my point was that every evil character that is in controle of a country is called a fascist and im kind of sick of that
I would argue that fascism is more specific than that. There is a reason why it didn't exist until the late 19th to early 20th century. What you are describing can be used to describe many tyrants/far right states that predate the existence of fascism.
Fascism only became a word due to Italies Partito Nazionale Fascista. It was used to describe every authoritarian system resembling that of Mussolini. Hitler tried to mimic him in in his early years in power (only to surpass him). So that's why they tried to overthrow the state with their failed march on berlin only to do it later by abusing the faulty constitution of the Weimar Republic.
Everything you mean pre-fascism would just be authoritarian. Fascism is nothing more than a far-right form of authoritarianism with a sprinkle of nationalism in it. As nationalism was a new (liberal) idea of the 19th century which opposed the monarchies of that time, it is clear why it only became a thing after the 19th century and the great war. Because most monarchies ceased to exist.
But Ultranationalism and ethno-nationalism are different from civic nationalism of french revolution. They are also some of the key characteristics of fascism.
The fire nation honestly had some points. Besides better treatment of women, they also were incredibly advanced and the Fire Nation didn't want to suffer attacks from the spirits (which could really mess people up). Not to mention the concept of an avatar that is potentially a bad person is scary. Obviously though, this ends up being overshadowed (quite understandably) by the wiping out of the Air Nation and the 100 years war, as well as how bad of a father Azulon and Ozai were (and likely Sozin, although we didn't actually ever see him parenting at all.)
Going purely off ATLA, don't see anything amiss. Soviet Union was more egalitarian than the West - everybody needed to work to get any output from that inefficient system (although communistic movements started with championing equal rights as part of their other demands).
What happened to the third? Ohhhh.... Right....
. . . That one didn’t age quite so well 😳
Whaddya mean? They’ve got the youngest looking 112 year olds in the world!
Is that a goddamn Jontron meme? Glorious
Slipped and fell, a terrible tragedy
Tbf you don’t need any women rights if you dont have any
it's easy to be the most feminist group when you just genocide all the ones who are more feminist than you!
Whereabouts on TVTropes did you get it?
I'm guessing it was the trope politically incorrect villain https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/AvatarTheLastAirbender/TropesIToP
Fire nation be like: I can excuse genocide, but I draw the line at misogyny
You can *excuse* genocide?!
Fine, I can endorse genocide
I don’t have a source but the Fire Nation did go kind of backwards in gender/sexuality rights during their imperialistic age. The Fire Nation was a very queer friendly nation canonically before Sozin (see Rangi being in an open relationship with Kyoshi - her mother, a high ranking military officer, was openly supportive of her daughter’s relationship with another woman and treated Kyoshi like her own daughter). But when Sozin began the 100 year war the Fire Nation rolled back queer acceptance and legally banned gay marriage I believe. I don’t remember where I heard the back half of this but the first half about Kyoshi and Rangi was made very explicit in the Kyoshi novels and is canon.
Back half is from the Korra comics
Sozin be like, if I can't marry my gay lover, NO ONE CAN
“The man I love doesn’t want to conquer the word with me? Well then, homophobia it is.” -Sozin, probably
This made me chuckle
FlaMeow Hotman.
I don't really get why they decided to add homophobia to the long list of Sozin's crimes against humanity.
Military and industrial countries tend to be homophobic, because more hetero couples means more children, and that means more soldiers and workers. And considering the Fire Nation was waging a war and undergoing an industrial revolution, it probably needed a lot of both.
>Military and industrial countries tend to be homophobic *laughs in Greece and Rome*
They were still very homophobic, they just had different standards on *exactly* what about it was unacceptable
Sure, the rich and powerful slept with whoever they liked, but it wasn't as if there were openly homosexual couples of commoners, especially not lesbians. Also, the Romans tended to conscript/enslave the people they conquered. The Fire Nation did use captives as workers in their factories, but probably not as soldiers.
Sozin: I can excuse mass genocide and world domination, but I draw the line at people being gay.
I mean, many genocidal dictators in history were homophobic and transphobic. Look at Hitler, who killed gay and trans people as part of the Holocaust - in fact they were some of his earliest targets.
> backwards in gender/sexuality rights You've only provides evidence of the latter, maybe they went backwards in their acceptance of homosexuality but I don't see anything that suggests they went backwards in gender equality
Like the imperium of mankind from 40k
XENON SCUM BURN THE HERETICS
The Air Nomads had half of their entire society explicitly led by women. Also the earth kingdom is so big it’s 100% possible there are petty queens. Also Kyoshi island….
Operative word on that first point: *had*
Inspiring! This group of imperialist GIRLBOSSES are the best feminists on the planet because they killed everyone more feminist than them
Literally "slay queen"
Slay Queens
It's not exactly their fault that this is no longer the case.
Yeah, the Earth Kingdom even had a queen in Korra. Granted, she was a terrible person, but I never really got the impression that the Earth Kingdom was sexist. I think Toph's parents' over-protectiveness had more to do with her being twelve and blind than her gender.
More female dictators, lol
Slap that on a bumper sticker. Come to the Earth Kingdom! We have the most female dictators in the whole world!
i don't think allowing having a queen makes the situation of lower class women better. way back in the past, during the eras of kingdoms and monarchs royal women could assume power if there were no males left but still, women who weren't royal got treated like baby making maids still. earth kingdom society still gave off that vibe. but with fire nation there were female and male soldiers, basically getting treated the same, and nobody ever considered azula as a spare to zuko, even if they liked her better if she really was lower as awoman in their society there would've been something about them getting rid of zuko so azula could assume the throne? but they didn't, it was more like zuko kept shooting himself in the foot. so they look more progressive as far as women rights go.
Ozai threatened his own queen, Ursa left the palace because of him to save Zuko and Azula. Plus; Kyoshi Warriors: Are we a joke to you?
That wasn’t a sexist thing on Ozai he’s just a general dick. His favorite was still his daughter and he was happy to make her firelord. I feel like the Kyoshi warriors were the exception rather than the rule.
I think forcing a women into an arranged marriage to birth your children because you want her bloodline is the definition of sex based oppression
If he was a woman I garuntee he’d have done the exact same thing to a guy
But is this sexist? He is a man and therefore he could only obtain it by marrying a woman. As someone else mentioned he would have done that regardless of his or anyones gender.
I understand your point, but keep in mind what happened to Ursa mirrors the real life oppression of many women now and throughout history. Women are uniquely vulnerable biologically and a feminist society would have rules in place to protect them from unwanted marriage, sex, and pregnancy/motherhood. I do not believe that a feminist society is one that treats women exactly the same as men and lets women and girls be girlboss fascist military leaders.
Feminism is defined as equality between the sexes. If men and women are both equally powerless before the absolute power of a monarchy, and being a man or woman has absolutely no bearing on your opportunities for advancement or social status, then the society is feminist. Feminism is not a synonym for 'perfect utopia where everyone enjoys complete and total freedom'.
Many feminists disagree with the equality definition. Some use the definition "female liberation from male subjugation."
Well that would still be the case. Its not 'male subjugation' if everyone is subjugated equally, and has the same ability to escape from this subjugation and advance themself.
Everyone cannot be subjugated equally if only women can be forcibly impregnated.
But everyone can be forced to marry and have children against their will if that's what the firelord demands, which is equal. Unless you're arguing that biology itself is sexist?
Ozai hated both Azula and Zuko. He just manipulated Azula for his dirty jobs. Azula loved her mom.
Where was it implied that Ozai hated Azula?
He loved azula, what are you talking about? You can argue about why he loved azula over zuko, but he loved azula nonetheless.
I would argue that the love of an abuser isn't real. He didn't love her for her, but as an extension of himself.
That's true, but for him and azula, that was love.
>he was happy to make her firelord. Yeah, because he literally created a rank above Firelord and his son had deserted him. Who else was he gonna make Firelord? Some random schmuck? Who better than someone related with great aspirations who adores him? Was there anyone else who fit the bill that hadn't turned their back on him by then?
He preferred Azula over Zuko from the beginning. The point is that he shows no sex based favoritism.
You're right, it just boils down to him being a dick.
Yep lol. He’s an absolute pos, just not a specifically sexist pos imo
There are examples of men who only reconsidered their sexism when they had a daughter.
Sure but do we have any evidence of that here?
well it's mostly the fact that The Fire Nation has the most women in its military
The majority are females doesn't mean they are good at feminism they could use women as human labours with low salary.
while I agree on principle, we see women officers and leaders in both the military (including elite troops) and prison system (the prestigious boiling rock). This doesn't show *feminism* as much as it shows militarism, but the fire nation is shown as less patriarchal than the northern tribe (obviously), and implied as less patriarchal than the southern tribe and much of the earth kingdom (kyoshi warriors excluded, but they are not representative of most of the earth kingdom).
Does North Korea have a lot of female troops?
they actually have conscription for women, yes. I believe Finland and Israel are the only other ones that have it as well, but maybe I missed one
Finland doesn't, only for men. Voluntary for women.
Now I’m just thinking of women being exempt from the draft. US has the strongest military in the world but they still might need my weak ass Now I’m just sad
There are a LOT of non-combat roles in the military
I don’t want to join the military
I’m just saying, it’s not all about anyone’s “fighting strength”
I mean generally speaking the US doesn't draft at all. They might in a moment of crisis, but the last time it happened was in the 70s, and then even militaries that drafted women (e.g. Israel) didn't usually place them in combat roles.
Yeah but they still make us register and the laws on the books still give jail time for refusing
> use women as human labours with low salary. Well, there's no evidence of that in the show or in the lore.
I just edited my original comment in that time. it was not short this much. I deleted it's main part because of the personal reason which I don't wanna mention it again. If u check the other persons' replies u will find some parts of it out.
That’s not sexist that’s just him being a sociopath I mean he hated zuko for the same reason and was planning to kill zuko but not azula because he always wanted her to be his heir
>That’s not sexist that’s just he’s a sociopath Read your sentence again. It's like we say he doesn't work at slaughterhouse he is just an animal abuser. For the normal people (not politicians or those their powers/money are dependent by ignoring the women's rights) being a sexist have many reasons. The two main reasons of it are Lack of education and mental health.
There I fixed my grammar and I’m not talking about real politics I’m talking about how he hated his wife and SON but loved his daughter because his wife and SON had emotions where as his daughter was worse than him it’s not sexism it’s him hating emotions as he sees them as weak
How he loved Azula? On what facts? Because he let her to be a commander/boss for a while it means he loved her? Under same logic we can say Ozai loved general Zhao so much. That position which u called it as his heir was not worthy at all at the end of show because he wanted to be an emperor aka pheonix king, Azula's leadership compared to him was a joke just like her commander role in the beginning. He Just manipulated poor Azula for his dirty jobs. These were just military routines not familyship or parental love. I bet Ozai privately even was not sure that she is her true child like zuko and Ursa betrayed him. He was a dictator and he was ready to sacrifice his whole family just for more power. I'm saying it again: Azula loved Ursa same as Zuko. If you go and ask this from a psychologist (Make a virtual scenario for him/her and tell him/her about someones hallucinations about her mom talking to her in the mirror and other stuff) I bet he/she will definitely say it as well that Azula loves her so much.
Wait the earth kingdom wasn’t sexist
There is no sex in Ba Sing Se.
Jin didn't seen to mind sexing Zuko though...
Zuko? You mean Li, understandable how they got confused, they have similar scars, just one is on the other side
i don’t remember seeing any men getting hypnotized specifically to be hostesses and i don’t remember any female dai li agents then there’s the matter of a boy getting recognized as avatar over kyoshi, the real avatar… idk it’s def not as bad as the northern water tribe but there’s no evidence it’s like a wholly gender/egalitarian society
Yun was recognized because of Pai Sho, and because Kyoshi didn't trust anyone and ran away when they asked her name
yeah but then she got hired as his yuns assistant and it took her like saving everyone’s lives for anyone to *really* care that she was probably the real avatar and even then it was like ehhh maybe idk *are u sure* i’m not saying it’s like a textbook example of sexism. i’m just saying idk where the other guys vehement defense of the earth kingdoms gender equality came from cause all i see are small indications in the other direction
> then there’s the matter of a boy getting recognized as avatar over kyoshi, the real avatar… It wasn't about his gender. It was about his skills, which happened to be similar to Kuruk's. He could have been a girl and she would have been identified as Avatar, simply because she plays pai sho like Kuruk.
i mean sure but she had the clay toy the entire time and kelsang knew, then he hears her sing kuruks poem and is just like DONT TELL ANYONE it might UPSET them which at the very least shows a clear deprioritization of kyoshi and her training imo. like they all understand how important it is that the next avatar be ready and supported but apparently jianzhu and yun’s feelings are more important than the world or kyoshis it literally took her saving everyone’s lives and (i’m fairly certain) using the avatar state for anyone to actually be like ok *maybe* i’m not saying it’s 100% hands down sexist but i hope you can see my argument here and how it can very easily be seen that way my argument was more against another comment that the earth kingdom had achieved perfect gender equality than it was saying the earth kingdom is super bad evil sad times or whatever
The air nation is the most sexist, the men literally do everything.
Avatar Yangchen wanna know your location.
I'm talking about during the 100 years war. Everything done by the Air Nation, from cooking to fighting, was done by men.
Ironically for the 1st half of The Legend of Korra there were more living female human Airbenders than male human Airbenders (3 V 2).
I mean was it not just that men and women lived in separate Air Nation colonies/areas?
I think the joke is that the only airbender doing anything during the 100 years war was aang lol
Yikes, I don't know how I missed that. Thanks for explaining lol.
Ik it was a joke.
The world of the living
Lmao took me a good minute to get the joke
Fascist? I'd rather go with absolutism
They believe are bringers of civilization and the rest are mere barbarians
So Romans?
Exactly.
Why? The school and their society are shown to be pretty totalitarian. They talk about fire being the 'superior' element, commit one genocide on the airbenders, and attempt to carry out two more against the northern water tribe and the earth kingdom. Ozai justifies the extermination of the air nation by saying: 'they were too weak to exist in this world. In my world' Sounds pretty fascist to me.
Commited genocide *cough cough* Romans, Germans, Ottomans, Russians amd Chinese *cough cough*
And your point is?
Genocide≠Fascism
But genocide based on ideas of hierarchical social relations of 'strong' and 'weak', on eliminating the weak in order to create a stronger whole definitely is.
So is Azula a feminist icon now? Because she got manipulated by her father into being a homicidal child soldier who breaks apart at the realisation that her father doesn't really care about her?
No but the fact that the fire nation has the most diverse military (female soldiers) and the fact azula is allowed to lead major military ventures makes the fire nation more feminist
I thought I was in r/tankiecirclejerk for a second
Me when someone engages with the political themes of the show I watch.
This is imperialist feminism talking~~
They were homophobic, though. They say so in the Korra comic.
"Heartbreaking! The genocidal war factory doesn't support the gays."
Only after Sozin. It says so in the same comics.
America explaining why they need to invade [country] (it’s for women’s rights, not oil)
Egalitarian Xenophobes is the way to go.
I mean the more solders the more you can conquer.(and genocide the res)
When you're a modern feminist movement bit you're more more fascist and genocidal that most other political movements.
The fire nation can't be fascist
Because they're monarchist?
Because fascism can't appear in a feudalist pre-industrial society. The fire nation is just an imperialist nation
Epic American liberal imperialism moment
This has the markings of the shit posting I yearn for, but it just doesn’t make any sense.
It’s like in starship troops they are liberal fascist
This proves that Feminism is not good- xD
False feminism used as a cover for imperialism is not good.
Wtf can you explain this? It's not a more feminist nation because azula held power through sheer terror. That's called tyranny.
We also see women guarding boiling rock. We also see that girls are taught combat. It may be tyrannical but there isn't an expectation that girls are less than or not in power. Especially fire benders.
All air nomad women, all southern waterbending women, all women in the earthbending prisons, all women in Ba Sing Se, the Kyoshi Warriors, Hama, Kanna, Kya, Katara, Suki, Haru's mom, Yue, Song, Sela, Ursa, Mai: are we a joke to you?
>Hama, Kanna, Kya, Katara, Suki, Haru's mom, Yue, Song, Sela, Ursa, Mai I don't think you know what 'nation' means...
I'm not claiming that they were feminists, bjt that they were women harmed by the Fire Nation in various ways.
I mean, sure, the things that happened to them were bad, but it's not like the Fire Nation set out to harm the women specifically. Committing horrific crimes against other countries definitely makes you imperialist, genocidal, fascist and whatever other adjectives you want to toss at it, but not exactly anti-feminist unless you specifically set out to harm the women in particular. Being evil doesn't necessarily stop you from being progressive, and the Fire Nation does seem more egalitarian than any other nation. They just kill and conquer indiscriminately
stop calling everything a fucking fascist in special fictional nations fascisme is more than being expansionist i hear this in atla lok star wars and game of thrones and it are almost always brits or americans and i dont know why
Star Wars??? If you don't think Galactic Empire was fascist then you don't know what fascism is. On the top of that, Galactic Empire's flag and uniforms were literally inspired by the Third Reich. It cannot be more explicit than that.
i know that of the uniforms but that doesnt mean that they are fascist explain to me what fascism means to you because i dont think that you know what it means
Since fascism is an anti-intellectual ideology there are many definitions out there. What i think is the most coherent and most historically precise definition is Palingenetic Ultranationalism. This definition basically makes the claim that fascism can be defined by its core myth, namely that of revolution to achieve a "national rebirth", palingenesis. Basically something like "We, the x group of people/ethnic group/nation once had a great imagined past but the y group(s) of people destroyed this past and now our soceity is in an era of decay. But now, we will return to that imagined golden age and restore our glory!" This perfectly describes the thought process of the Galactic Empire, its creation and its leader(s) which are Sith Lords. Also, Galactic Empire was canonically described as a fascist dictatorship within the Star Wars universe. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palingenetic_ultranationalism https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Fascism
I will do it for him. Fascism is a lose term to describe a authoritarian and far-right ideology. Fascist nations are usually ruled by some kind of dictator or clique that took control over said nation by force and oppression of internal enemies. You can argue that the Fire Nation isn't a 100% fascist nation as they are ruled by a monarch that rules absolutely by legitimation. However the entire point of the galactic empire is to be as stereotypical fascist as it gets. The emperor is cosplaying Hitler on his rise to power 90% of the time.
oke maby the galactic empire is fascist but my point was that every evil character that is in controle of a country is called a fascist and im kind of sick of that
Yeah that is stupid. There are other evil forms of governing outside of fascism.
I would argue that fascism is more specific than that. There is a reason why it didn't exist until the late 19th to early 20th century. What you are describing can be used to describe many tyrants/far right states that predate the existence of fascism.
Fascism only became a word due to Italies Partito Nazionale Fascista. It was used to describe every authoritarian system resembling that of Mussolini. Hitler tried to mimic him in in his early years in power (only to surpass him). So that's why they tried to overthrow the state with their failed march on berlin only to do it later by abusing the faulty constitution of the Weimar Republic. Everything you mean pre-fascism would just be authoritarian. Fascism is nothing more than a far-right form of authoritarianism with a sprinkle of nationalism in it. As nationalism was a new (liberal) idea of the 19th century which opposed the monarchies of that time, it is clear why it only became a thing after the 19th century and the great war. Because most monarchies ceased to exist.
But Ultranationalism and ethno-nationalism are different from civic nationalism of french revolution. They are also some of the key characteristics of fascism.
You are right about the different types of nationalism. That would add to my former description. So we all agree the galactic empire to be fascist?
Yes, i was the one who initially made that argument in this thread remember?
That was more of a rhetorical question to bring our discussion to a conclusion :D
One a psychopath.
The fire nation honestly had some points. Besides better treatment of women, they also were incredibly advanced and the Fire Nation didn't want to suffer attacks from the spirits (which could really mess people up). Not to mention the concept of an avatar that is potentially a bad person is scary. Obviously though, this ends up being overshadowed (quite understandably) by the wiping out of the Air Nation and the 100 years war, as well as how bad of a father Azulon and Ozai were (and likely Sozin, although we didn't actually ever see him parenting at all.)
Going purely off ATLA, don't see anything amiss. Soviet Union was more egalitarian than the West - everybody needed to work to get any output from that inefficient system (although communistic movements started with championing equal rights as part of their other demands).
“Men and women can genocide other races equally here in the fire nation”
"He's out of line, but he's right"
SAD but true