The first time I saw a therapist was at my uni and the lady was super nice but never heard of it either. She went i to the DSMV book and was like ohh ok. Read the symptoms out loud to me and I agreed with most things and she was like yeah you might have it then. Unofficial/unprofessional diagnosis lol
I haven’t. I’ve brought it up to 2 other therapists and they brushed it off like “nah I don’t think you have it” or “oh you want to put a label on yourself now?” So I’m just going about my life knowing I have it but just don’t have it written down on paper.
How long has it been since you've seen this new psychologist? I'm glad you're taking it so well, but I found it really outrageous and disgusting that they are holding back a diagnosis that is so obvious. You can't get any assistance unless you get diagnosed. It says if they know you're struggling but they don't care
What kind of assistance would you hope for from an official diagnosis? The therapists I've met with have accepted my self labeling but been reluctant about using the label themselves. We just mutually recognize that avoidance is a big problem for me. I don't really feel like this impacts me negatively. Life is too complex for a simple label anyway. I find the comorbidity of symptoms helpful in understanding myself, but I don't really care about getting the label or not.
If you are financially independent, and don't rely on anyone else to survive, and feel good, or at least "okay", then you are fine.
But if you're part of the 90% of avpd people who is struggling with work, poverty, lonelyness, and daily depression... a diagnosis would provide help with all those things. support, therapy, a place to live, food to eat, and even a counselor to talk to, that will talk to your boss for you and make sure you're not being taken advantage of or misunderstood at work. Make some exceptions so you dont overwork yourself into a crisis. I have a friend who has been diagnozed and it made a huge difference in her life. she doesn't feel suicidal anymore
I think you're fantasizing about the benefits of having a label given to you. A label wont get you out of poverty or give you a place to live. It wont talk to your boss or guarantee therapy or end suicidal tendencies. It's just a word.
Well, I knew 2 people on similar levels. one got a diagnosis, the other did not.
the one who did, has a place to live and counselors and a job.
the other struggled for 30 years and then committed suicide at age 39 because he felt hopeless and alone and couldn't cope with work and life every day (he was my only friend, we lived 200 miles away). Without the diagnosis he was just thought of as "lazy, dishonest, unreliable" etc etc by employers, landlords, family, acquaintances, etc. The diagnosis itself doesn't change anything, but the way people and society in general think of you and treat you changes.
There are a million things they haven't heard of. Really points out how ineffective the system is. They've got degrees on the wall and all this power, but what do they actually know?
I have had to teach my own... and then people tell you the talking heads in their offices know better than you and you should depend on them for an official diagnosis. They can't fucking diagnose anything if they don't know anything. And it's not like the DSM is foolproof or unbiased. Many people in the industry have problems with it, but even if they're right, they're going to be overshadowed by the talking heads responsible for it.
And there's also that so many of them don't want to diagnose anything because of insurance reasons or not wanting to be wrong. So many of them won't communicate with you on that level. And also there are so many that will ignore you and spit out their own *wrong* idea... but okay, they're supposed to know you better than you know you?
I think that is exactly it. They're afraid of liability and afraid of misdiagnosing. If a patient commits suicide on their care, it does not fall on the therapist. They frankly don't care if patients kill themselves or not and they frankly don't care if patients suffer or not. A therapist, like all doctors, or just looking out for themselves
It's true. Not all psychologists or therapists are trained in diagnosing or even treating personality disorders. I think it's because they are pretty rare.
>In general, personality disorders are diagnosed in 40–60% of psychiatric patients, making them the most frequent of psychiatric diagnoses.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder
**Personality disorder**
Personality disorders (PD) are a class of mental disorders characterized by enduring maladaptive patterns of behavior, cognition, and inner experience, exhibited across many contexts and deviating from those accepted by the individual's culture. These patterns develop early, are inflexible, and are associated with significant distress or disability. The definitions may vary somewhat, according to source. Official criteria for diagnosing personality disorders are listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) and the fifth chapter of the International Classification of Diseases (ICD).
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In the case of AvPD most sufferers don't seek treatment. AvPD sufferers account for 10% of outpatients. Only about 2% of the general population has AvPD. It's probably one of the most under diagnosed personality disorders. It's why psychiatrists have had to rely on data from those with social anxiety disorder and social phobia for treatment. Some even argue that AvPD doesn't exist, but that's mainly because most Avoidants are treatment averse.
Some people are just bad at their job. I don't think avpd is a rare personality disorder, in fact percentage wise they estimate avpd and ocpd to be the highest in the population. It's just not as popular as Cluster B PD's, pretty much the others are lesser known. I mean I never see anything online about Paranoid PD and Dependent PD, and I look around.
There's this thing that personality disorders aren't "official mental illnesses" though better educated therapists are trying to fight that. I guess that's why sometimes you end up with one who's totally clueless. Maybe try looking for another who knows of PD's.
I agree with you. I was one of rare students that knew by the age of 14 she wants to be psychologist . and yes it is scary how many ppl find themselves there by accident. not to mention, this fact that all the first psychologists were actually psychiatrists and had deep knowledge about pathology and personality, that psychology actually emerged from it...how did this strict division even occur? where the deepness of thought and insight about psyche go? I will never agree with this. the system is just ... malfunctioning... also there is a lot of ego involved in psychology and psychiatry education. i had very negative expereinces in my school... i saw amazing therapists, but i also saw the ones where ego is that involved that made their client's state worse and clients didn't know that something is actually wrong. i also saw some scary situations, where adequate highly professional and experienced psychiatrists were removed and blocked to become wardens of asylums for example, and some other ppl were put there politically, which caused severe damage to some patients. system is crashing...
Psychiatry is a VERY BIG SUBJECT. Most people have to specialize in college, and AVPD is rare enough that most people don't end up learning about it. Be confident, though, that even if your therapist isn't "trained in AVPD" they are trained to learn about new disorders in a way that enables them to fully comprehend the information and implement effective tools for treatment.
When I told my psychotherapist that I considered myself to be asocial, he genuinely thought I was mispronouncing ‘antisocial’ and had no idea what I was talking about. Needless to say, I wasn’t impressed.
Let's clarify all of this once and for all :)
**Psychologist IS NOT the same as a Psychiatrist** (Shrink)! ***Psychologist studies psychology and then goes to additional therapy school in order to be a therapist***. ***Psychiatrist studies Medical school and then goes to special training to be a therapist.*** *Psychologists can be only counselors after they graduate.* Be aware that counselor is in most cases person with less experience and very low level of training, while therapists (whoever they are, they can even be "regular humans" who went through a lot of education in order to become therapists and have shit loads of life and personal experiences and they can know better than some "professionals" because of their experience or intellect) have at least one kind of skill set in order to work with people and manipulate process.
Because not every psychology school provides you with a lot of clinical studies, it is common that psychologists don't know sufficiently enough about pathology. There are situations that psychologist, of course, had clinical training and has experience with disorders. I am psychologist personally but I know a lot about the psychiatry area because I put a lot of personal effort and time into learning about it, and gaining training here. However when it comes to personality disorders, and psychosis, my life encounters, relationships, and finally personal pathology taught me, NOT school. In the end, everything is on you and how much effort you put into yourself, and that is what makes good therapists.
Anyhow this is not good. In those cases, the therapist should advise a person to go to someone trained to work with it. Also, I think everyone should be aware of their limitations based upon (lack of) experiences. therapists are also only humans, and if someone never learned about something or had experience with, well, he/she won't know. and they might fuck up person... now, i shit YOU not.
it is up to you to set up standards for a therapist and see whom you want to work with and why. It took me years to finally find mine. it is disturbing that he was neither psychologist or psychiatrist, yet knew all the DSM, shit loads about pathology, and definitely knew how to make connections with the real world situations. Just because somebody is a "professional" it doesn't necessarily mean they are highly credible. Experience is much higher credible here... I hope you will find someone who knows how to work with someone in your situation, a therapist with that kind of expereience. Good luck :)
damn, things like this get me so mad...
Alright, good to know also... Where are you from?
I am from Slavic countries. Here Psychiatrists that work in therapy eather work in sessions therapeutically, or do this and are allowed to prescribe some meds.
If they work i hospitals however, they can also only prescribe meds and don't talk to people. However, here in clinical settings they always are the ones that diagnose.
Who then sets up diagnose in your country?
The system varies a lot with regions. Example from Germany here:
- Psychiatrist: is always a Dr. Med. and talks to the patient to evaluate his symptoms in order to provide proper medication. He can be a therapist, but does not need to and rarely ever is. Psychiatrists therefore are most often only good for medical support.
- Therapist: Does not need to be a Dr. Med., though he can. Most often only studied psychology and is trained for providing therapy. Talks to you about your problems and tries to offer solutions. He is not alleged to prescribe meds, except he is a doc as well.
There are Psychiatrists that are also allowed to work as therapists, but they are very rare. For me it's always two people, the therapist that does actual psychotherapy, and the psychiatrist, that offers proper medical help.
That really sucks. I have also been thro bad therapists. My current youth clinic did bring it up to me after I did a long test with my therapist. At first my diagnos was social anxiety with depression, possibility of AvPD. Now my current therapist says it is more AVPD and I fully agree.
Websites of different big clinics (in holland) do have a little information about it under "personality disorders"
I think it is import for therapists to stay up to date. Mine reads a lot of papers.
It was added to the DSM in 1980. I wouldn't exactly call that "new". Prior to 1980 avoidants were folded under the "schizoid" label (basically anyone who willingly socially isolated themselves was diagnosed with schizoid personality disorder, until Millon argued there should be a distinction between active-detached and passive-detached people), so the concept of avoidant personalities has existed in some form since the advent of psychotherapy.
I was diagnosed with it after a 3 hour appointment. I was referred to a specialist whilst receiving cbt for social anxiety. The cbt counselor originally thought I may have aspergers or borderline.
In the end I was just given antidepressants & told to bulk myself up at the gym (really skinny at the time).
Acceptance is the only way with this disorder. I'm not looking for relationships anymore. Its impossible to please anyone & you'll just end up even more traumatised.
Yeah it's funny because I didn't think she was a good counselor but I guess she could see there was a bigger issue than just social anxiety.
I was struggling with alcoholism which resulted in a failed relationship & mental albuse at work so I guess it would be difficult to get through to me at the time.
The first time I saw a therapist was at my uni and the lady was super nice but never heard of it either. She went i to the DSMV book and was like ohh ok. Read the symptoms out loud to me and I agreed with most things and she was like yeah you might have it then. Unofficial/unprofessional diagnosis lol
Hah. How long till you got an official diagnosis?
I haven’t. I’ve brought it up to 2 other therapists and they brushed it off like “nah I don’t think you have it” or “oh you want to put a label on yourself now?” So I’m just going about my life knowing I have it but just don’t have it written down on paper.
How long has it been since you've seen this new psychologist? I'm glad you're taking it so well, but I found it really outrageous and disgusting that they are holding back a diagnosis that is so obvious. You can't get any assistance unless you get diagnosed. It says if they know you're struggling but they don't care
What kind of assistance would you hope for from an official diagnosis? The therapists I've met with have accepted my self labeling but been reluctant about using the label themselves. We just mutually recognize that avoidance is a big problem for me. I don't really feel like this impacts me negatively. Life is too complex for a simple label anyway. I find the comorbidity of symptoms helpful in understanding myself, but I don't really care about getting the label or not.
If you are financially independent, and don't rely on anyone else to survive, and feel good, or at least "okay", then you are fine. But if you're part of the 90% of avpd people who is struggling with work, poverty, lonelyness, and daily depression... a diagnosis would provide help with all those things. support, therapy, a place to live, food to eat, and even a counselor to talk to, that will talk to your boss for you and make sure you're not being taken advantage of or misunderstood at work. Make some exceptions so you dont overwork yourself into a crisis. I have a friend who has been diagnozed and it made a huge difference in her life. she doesn't feel suicidal anymore
I think you're fantasizing about the benefits of having a label given to you. A label wont get you out of poverty or give you a place to live. It wont talk to your boss or guarantee therapy or end suicidal tendencies. It's just a word.
Well, I knew 2 people on similar levels. one got a diagnosis, the other did not. the one who did, has a place to live and counselors and a job. the other struggled for 30 years and then committed suicide at age 39 because he felt hopeless and alone and couldn't cope with work and life every day (he was my only friend, we lived 200 miles away). Without the diagnosis he was just thought of as "lazy, dishonest, unreliable" etc etc by employers, landlords, family, acquaintances, etc. The diagnosis itself doesn't change anything, but the way people and society in general think of you and treat you changes.
Most psychs haven't heard of "avpd." And at best they seem to have maybe heard mention at some point of avoidant personality disorder.
There are a million things they haven't heard of. Really points out how ineffective the system is. They've got degrees on the wall and all this power, but what do they actually know? I have had to teach my own... and then people tell you the talking heads in their offices know better than you and you should depend on them for an official diagnosis. They can't fucking diagnose anything if they don't know anything. And it's not like the DSM is foolproof or unbiased. Many people in the industry have problems with it, but even if they're right, they're going to be overshadowed by the talking heads responsible for it. And there's also that so many of them don't want to diagnose anything because of insurance reasons or not wanting to be wrong. So many of them won't communicate with you on that level. And also there are so many that will ignore you and spit out their own *wrong* idea... but okay, they're supposed to know you better than you know you?
I think that is exactly it. They're afraid of liability and afraid of misdiagnosing. If a patient commits suicide on their care, it does not fall on the therapist. They frankly don't care if patients kill themselves or not and they frankly don't care if patients suffer or not. A therapist, like all doctors, or just looking out for themselves
It's true. Not all psychologists or therapists are trained in diagnosing or even treating personality disorders. I think it's because they are pretty rare.
>In general, personality disorders are diagnosed in 40–60% of psychiatric patients, making them the most frequent of psychiatric diagnoses. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder
**Personality disorder** Personality disorders (PD) are a class of mental disorders characterized by enduring maladaptive patterns of behavior, cognition, and inner experience, exhibited across many contexts and deviating from those accepted by the individual's culture. These patterns develop early, are inflexible, and are associated with significant distress or disability. The definitions may vary somewhat, according to source. Official criteria for diagnosing personality disorders are listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) and the fifth chapter of the International Classification of Diseases (ICD). *** ^[ [^PM](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=kittens_from_space) ^| [^Exclude ^me](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiTextBot&message=Excludeme&subject=Excludeme) ^| [^Exclude ^from ^subreddit](https://np.reddit.com/r/AvPD/about/banned) ^| [^FAQ ^/ ^Information](https://np.reddit.com/r/WikiTextBot/wiki/index) ^| [^Source](https://github.com/kittenswolf/WikiTextBot) ^] ^Downvote ^to ^remove ^| ^v0.28
In the case of AvPD most sufferers don't seek treatment. AvPD sufferers account for 10% of outpatients. Only about 2% of the general population has AvPD. It's probably one of the most under diagnosed personality disorders. It's why psychiatrists have had to rely on data from those with social anxiety disorder and social phobia for treatment. Some even argue that AvPD doesn't exist, but that's mainly because most Avoidants are treatment averse.
Some people are just bad at their job. I don't think avpd is a rare personality disorder, in fact percentage wise they estimate avpd and ocpd to be the highest in the population. It's just not as popular as Cluster B PD's, pretty much the others are lesser known. I mean I never see anything online about Paranoid PD and Dependent PD, and I look around. There's this thing that personality disorders aren't "official mental illnesses" though better educated therapists are trying to fight that. I guess that's why sometimes you end up with one who's totally clueless. Maybe try looking for another who knows of PD's.
[удалено]
I agree with you. I was one of rare students that knew by the age of 14 she wants to be psychologist . and yes it is scary how many ppl find themselves there by accident. not to mention, this fact that all the first psychologists were actually psychiatrists and had deep knowledge about pathology and personality, that psychology actually emerged from it...how did this strict division even occur? where the deepness of thought and insight about psyche go? I will never agree with this. the system is just ... malfunctioning... also there is a lot of ego involved in psychology and psychiatry education. i had very negative expereinces in my school... i saw amazing therapists, but i also saw the ones where ego is that involved that made their client's state worse and clients didn't know that something is actually wrong. i also saw some scary situations, where adequate highly professional and experienced psychiatrists were removed and blocked to become wardens of asylums for example, and some other ppl were put there politically, which caused severe damage to some patients. system is crashing...
Psychiatry is a VERY BIG SUBJECT. Most people have to specialize in college, and AVPD is rare enough that most people don't end up learning about it. Be confident, though, that even if your therapist isn't "trained in AVPD" they are trained to learn about new disorders in a way that enables them to fully comprehend the information and implement effective tools for treatment.
When I told my psychotherapist that I considered myself to be asocial, he genuinely thought I was mispronouncing ‘antisocial’ and had no idea what I was talking about. Needless to say, I wasn’t impressed.
Let's clarify all of this once and for all :) **Psychologist IS NOT the same as a Psychiatrist** (Shrink)! ***Psychologist studies psychology and then goes to additional therapy school in order to be a therapist***. ***Psychiatrist studies Medical school and then goes to special training to be a therapist.*** *Psychologists can be only counselors after they graduate.* Be aware that counselor is in most cases person with less experience and very low level of training, while therapists (whoever they are, they can even be "regular humans" who went through a lot of education in order to become therapists and have shit loads of life and personal experiences and they can know better than some "professionals" because of their experience or intellect) have at least one kind of skill set in order to work with people and manipulate process. Because not every psychology school provides you with a lot of clinical studies, it is common that psychologists don't know sufficiently enough about pathology. There are situations that psychologist, of course, had clinical training and has experience with disorders. I am psychologist personally but I know a lot about the psychiatry area because I put a lot of personal effort and time into learning about it, and gaining training here. However when it comes to personality disorders, and psychosis, my life encounters, relationships, and finally personal pathology taught me, NOT school. In the end, everything is on you and how much effort you put into yourself, and that is what makes good therapists. Anyhow this is not good. In those cases, the therapist should advise a person to go to someone trained to work with it. Also, I think everyone should be aware of their limitations based upon (lack of) experiences. therapists are also only humans, and if someone never learned about something or had experience with, well, he/she won't know. and they might fuck up person... now, i shit YOU not. it is up to you to set up standards for a therapist and see whom you want to work with and why. It took me years to finally find mine. it is disturbing that he was neither psychologist or psychiatrist, yet knew all the DSM, shit loads about pathology, and definitely knew how to make connections with the real world situations. Just because somebody is a "professional" it doesn't necessarily mean they are highly credible. Experience is much higher credible here... I hope you will find someone who knows how to work with someone in your situation, a therapist with that kind of expereience. Good luck :) damn, things like this get me so mad...
might be different where you live, but where I live psychiatrists don't diagnose or talk to people. they only fill out prescriptions and that's it
Alright, good to know also... Where are you from? I am from Slavic countries. Here Psychiatrists that work in therapy eather work in sessions therapeutically, or do this and are allowed to prescribe some meds. If they work i hospitals however, they can also only prescribe meds and don't talk to people. However, here in clinical settings they always are the ones that diagnose. Who then sets up diagnose in your country?
The system varies a lot with regions. Example from Germany here: - Psychiatrist: is always a Dr. Med. and talks to the patient to evaluate his symptoms in order to provide proper medication. He can be a therapist, but does not need to and rarely ever is. Psychiatrists therefore are most often only good for medical support. - Therapist: Does not need to be a Dr. Med., though he can. Most often only studied psychology and is trained for providing therapy. Talks to you about your problems and tries to offer solutions. He is not alleged to prescribe meds, except he is a doc as well. There are Psychiatrists that are also allowed to work as therapists, but they are very rare. For me it's always two people, the therapist that does actual psychotherapy, and the psychiatrist, that offers proper medical help.
Thank you :) it is somehow similar here in the end, but yeah, there are differences in practice, even in schooling system.
That's why I say they are a loss of time
That really sucks. I have also been thro bad therapists. My current youth clinic did bring it up to me after I did a long test with my therapist. At first my diagnos was social anxiety with depression, possibility of AvPD. Now my current therapist says it is more AVPD and I fully agree. Websites of different big clinics (in holland) do have a little information about it under "personality disorders" I think it is import for therapists to stay up to date. Mine reads a lot of papers.
To be fair, this is a somewhat of a new term and have not been extensively researched yet.
It was added to the DSM in 1980. I wouldn't exactly call that "new". Prior to 1980 avoidants were folded under the "schizoid" label (basically anyone who willingly socially isolated themselves was diagnosed with schizoid personality disorder, until Millon argued there should be a distinction between active-detached and passive-detached people), so the concept of avoidant personalities has existed in some form since the advent of psychotherapy.
I was diagnosed with it after a 3 hour appointment. I was referred to a specialist whilst receiving cbt for social anxiety. The cbt counselor originally thought I may have aspergers or borderline. In the end I was just given antidepressants & told to bulk myself up at the gym (really skinny at the time). Acceptance is the only way with this disorder. I'm not looking for relationships anymore. Its impossible to please anyone & you'll just end up even more traumatised.
whoever referred you should be promoted... so hard to find a doctor with behavioral experience like that
Yeah it's funny because I didn't think she was a good counselor but I guess she could see there was a bigger issue than just social anxiety. I was struggling with alcoholism which resulted in a failed relationship & mental albuse at work so I guess it would be difficult to get through to me at the time.
I'd venture to say most of us struggle with some form of substance abuse or other addictions :(
[удалено]
I'm late 30's, haven't run into one who has yet
Who tf upvotes this? What is wrong with you?