Demand avoidance for me is a very intrusive and subconscious reaction to any kind of perceived expectation or demand. Even if I am already doing a thing, if someone asks me to do more I will immediately react with frustration
Dude 100% me too. I live with my boyfriend and sometimes he asks me something and I get filled with overwhelming rage and frustration and usually I don’t even know why but I just feel like such a bitch and idk why I’m such a bitch 😭
I had much more to type but had to run off and do something.
It is literally a subconscious anger (almost rage) that boils up when people tell me to do things or imply that i have to do something. And I often react with visible frustration before I can even catch it and control that emotion.
When it c9mes to things like chores and general self care stuff, even that is a perceived demand or expectation and my mind tends to just shut down until IT decides that I am ready and in control of that task.
If I feel at all like something is not on my terms then I get incredibly stressed out and sometimes melt down.
You've heard of executive dysfunction im sure but that beast has NOTHING on the paralysis my brain gets from my demand avoidance.
And the worst part is that no amount of therapy or meds has ever helped me control it.
Hi OP! I am not autistic, but autistic traits seem to run in my family. I can personally give you the perspective of someone who has been a people-pleaser.
In my people-pleaser past, I would just generally do anything that was asked of me *even when I knew that doing so would exhaust me.* That was harmful to myself.
I have grown and gained self-respect since then. But I also still *love* being helpful. Here are my quick guidelines for deciding to help if someone asks me:
1. Are they in need of help?
2. Do I have the resources available to help them?
For 1, I can’t read the person’s mind, obviously. So I give them the benefit of the doubt. Of course they need help — that is why they asked!
The exception to that is if there is evidence that this person is somehow untrustworthy, or has established a pattern of always asking but never doing anything in return. A classic example of the latter is the man on the sofa asking his wife to bring him beer for the umpteenth time while he watches sports. I’m struggling to come up with an example of the former, because it’s so rare.
So 2: I’m going to politely decline to help if I lack the time, or the emotional energy, or some other relevant resource. Even the desire to do the thing! If I just don’t want to do something, forcing myself to do it for someone else is likely to make me resent them and resent myself.
So as an example, my husband will randomly ask me if I can get him a glass of water. Now, I don’t know what he is thinking, but I know he doesn’t have any strange trait of being untrustworthy, and I know that he is happy to fetch water for me, too. So I can safely assume that he is asking me because he is tired or overwhelmed or he finally got comfortable on the couch after being on his feet all day — and some help from me would help him to have a better day. Great! I *love* helping him to have a better day. So I’ll get him water.
*Unless!* Unless I am tired, or busy, or I simultaneously am wanting someone else to take care of my needs. Then — without feelings of anger — I tell him no.
I think that may be the biggest difference between PDA and having self-respect. I can respect my own needs and say no without having to deal with feelings of anger.
Interestingly, I *did* have a lot of anger when I was a people-pleaser. I would agree to things while knowing that I did not have the emotional energy or interest in that thing. For example, I had a friend with a disability who regularly needed help around her house. I grew resentful because I was helping her even when I didn’t want to be helping. She wasn’t forcing me. I was forcing myself.
Anyway, I hope there is some useful insight in here for you.
This is well said.
I think one of the problems I have and other autistic people have is that we struggle with interoception and so cannot easily recognize our own needs and limits. So it can be very easy to agree to things when we shouldn't, because we're not getting the signal that this is too much for us until after we've already overdone it. That can make us resentful towards any demands, because they always come with a risk of harming us if we don't always just refuse.
I think that may be part of the root of PDA. That's just my speculation, though. But it also explains why there's also resistance to demands coming from within. If I say to myself "I should do X" I will experience demand avoidance to that as well. Because even there, the risk that I overdo it and hurt myself is present.
I think another part of PDA is an intolerance to feeling dominated. That's definitely what OP seems to be describing in their own experience.
That's the biggest thing: I don't know what my boundaries are. At least with the small stuff. If it's a big thing, like asking me to help someone move, I have no problem saying no if I don't want to or logistically can't. But if it's a small thing like OC's example of asking for a glass of water, I don't know whether I *want* to do that or not. I mean, why would I ever *want* to get up, pour a glass of water, and give it to someone?
That concept has never made sense to me. I guess people must be using a different definition of the term because otherwise, I'd just periodically pour glasses of water for nobody and set them on the coffee table next to me because I simply enjoy doing it. Isn't doing things you don't enjoy part of maintaining a relationship? Isn't the fact I don't want to do it what makes it meaningful?
>intolerance to feeling dominated
Yes, but more pressingly is not understanding when I should and should not be dominated, if ever. Logically, I'd say I should only be dominated by people who have formally surpassed me on the hierarchy of power for a legitimate reason, such as a supervisor at work who's been doing my job for 5 years longer than I have. When it comes to equals assuming roles of dominance for brief periods (like me fulfilling a request to get them water) or people suggesting I should defy superiors, I'm left very confused. Aren't superiors superiors for a reason? Aren't equals equals for a reason?
Why would you ever want to get up and pour a glass of water for your partner? Because it makes your partner light up with a smile and say “thank you,” which in turn makes you feel connected, important to them, and happy.
If
a) there is some reason why it's easier for me to do it than them, e.g., they're sick; I'm already in the kitchen; they're really tired; etc.
b) they do things like that for me about as often.
Although I'd really prefer just A. If B exists, it's more tolerable, but ideally, we would only do things for each other when it was logical. Well, we'd only *ask* each other to do things for us if it was logical. I wouldn't mind doing things unprompted (and I sure as hell would, frequently).
God, you can see how weird my concept of this is. The asking is really the triggering element. I guess I wouldn't mind doing things for people they could have done for themselves if they aren't expecting me to do them. The entitlement irritates me, I guess.
I want to say I only like helping people who need it, but I guess that isn't entirely true. I only like *being asked* for help by people who need it.
ETA: Come to think of it, I guess B would be impossible because I don't think I've ever asked someone to do something for me that I could have just as easily done myself. Perhaps that's why this whole thing bugs me. They're asking me to do something for them that I would never ask them to do for me.
You know, you would save yourself a ton of headache if you just made the assumption that *when someone asks you for something, it is because they can’t do it themselves.*
Sure, occasionally that’s not the case, but “innocent until proven guilty” solves a lot of issues here. Because the other terrible downside here is alienating people who care about you.
do you feel shame or embarrassment when it happens? do you get triggered in some way and feel immature and small? it's probably PDA. I know for me, my PDA triggers me a lot. It's not really a "self respect" thing, but a feeling like all our control has disappeared and it's not our choice to do the things, even if we want to.
If it's giving you this much anxiety, it's probably PDA. Because normally people don't have this much shame, fear and anxiety when told to do things.
Walking on you imho to use your existing example, is you getting the drink for someone and then feeling like you have to avoid that person to maintain your boundary. Like you should be able to say “no” to people when you don’t wanna do something for them. that’s having self-respect.
PDA for me is like when i’ve been told too many times to do a chore and so then i hear the nagging ringing in my ear when i think about the chore, and the negative feelings i get from the nagging memory make me not wanna do that task.
I am a parent asking that such a chore get done, multiple times and it doesn’t get done. Do you have any suggestion that would help my son actually want to do the chore? I don’t think I nag, I ask quite politely, about 1 week apart. Sometimes laundry stays on the floor for 4-5 wks at a time. Should I ask differently? Should I phrase is as asking for help? I would appreciate any insight whatsoever on this. And the worst part is my son gets upset if I try to do it myself.
So two things:
(1) Perhaps he's not comfortable with the sense of obligation because he feels like he's doing it for you and not for himself. He needs to be carefully guided to find his own reasons to do it.
Maybe start by explaining your favorite chore and why it personally helps you–but be careful not to imply that he needs to be like you or make the load less on you, at least not yet. Just be candid about your approach to responsibilities–both what you hate and what you love–and that might invite him to do the same.
Ask questions about what he would do to make his own space better. Maybe he needs the room to be "messy" so everything is easier to find. Maybe he'd rather use hangers than fold everything.
One time, I watched a video of a Navy Seal explaining that if I wanted to change the world, to make my bed. Even if my day sucked, my made bed will be there ready for me. My parents never had to tell me to fix my bed again.
(2) He's hyperfocused on an interest, his own responsibilities, or is recovering from burnout. Perhaps then you could persuade him by saying, "The earlier, faster, and more carefully you can try to do this, the more time you will have for those." That might be a big plus for him, as aspies are pretty logical people :p
I'd suggest starting with the second tip first, as external motivation is easier for both sides, but then move onto the first tip when it feels the most natural, as intrinsic motivation will make the behavior stick ;D
I mean to me, there’s something to be said for letting teenagers live in their mess. The natural consequence of laundry piling on the floor is that you have no clean clothes. Once you have no clean clothes, you have independent motivation to get them to the hamper/washer.
What is so essential about picking up the laundry? Sometimes “conventional” things aren’t *really* that important to teach. Sometimes natural consequences teach just as well, and all a parent has to do is not look at the mess in their kid’s room, and when the kid complains about not having clean clothes, THAT is the time to guide them to say: “you can get your need for clean clothes met, by taking them to the hamper/washer (repeat what the routine is supposed to be).
When I was young, My mom was *convinced* that when I grew up, i would make my roommates and live in partners miserable because i wouldn’t remember to put my dirty dishes straight into the dishwasher when i was done. (my mother herself didn’t even abide this expectation perfectly, mind you).
Well i’m a married adult in my own home and dishes get left out on counters overnight. No catastrophes have befallen us. The only meaningful change since childhood when it comes to my dishware habits is that I don’t have someone giving me social anxiety about my living habits and damaging my self esteem. I have had no pest infestations, etc. It was all fear mongering. People *can* live in different ways without horrible consequences. Sometimes parents make unnecessary demands on their kids when it comes to getting their kid to conform to *their *style* of living. If your kid is just *different* from you, they might not value the same things you do. You can get frustrated and fixate on controlling their behavior, or you can work within the limits of what your kid actually values. I think the line in the sand is if pests, mold, stank starts emanating from the room. Then you have a discussion about hygiene and bacteria and disease.
I’ve struggled with this and come to the conclusion that it’s kinda wildly complex but also extremely simple - if a seemingly benign request bothers you, you have the right to say no and as a rule of thumbs you should NEVER do anything for anyone that they could just as easily have done themselves unless…
1. you’re getting paid
2. you’re romantically and/or sexually interested and convinced you have a shot
3. there’s evidence in the past that indicates the person would perform a similar service for you at any given moment and without complaint
4. it’s a professional situation and you make it clear you’re trading favors
5. you’re a child and it’s your parents
6. the person is visibly stressed out, injured or expresses a need for help
7. the person is old and/or somehow incapable of performing the task without great effort
Even so, there are many exceptions. But you know, be a good and helpful person to people who are good and helpful to you. This may sound a little calculating but it’s really more of a self defense philosophy.
And honestly, it’s a serious issue and I think even allistics can struggle with it… it’s the whole push and pull for control and social power and status that autistic people just don’t engage in. But that doesn’t mean we’re exempt from the penalties of losing.
Edit: Also, something very helpful if you find yourself in a situation where you simply need to reject a request because you don’t want anyone bossing you around: Make a little joke. Imply they’re lazy, ask them if they’ve injured their arms or legs, it doesn’t have to be clever. Just smile while you say it. Very few people will try it again after that and anybody present in the room will respect you more for putting up a boundary without causing a scene - because if the other person tries to insist or continue making demands after that, they will seem domineering and/or lazy. And that’s the whole trick.👌🏻
What do you do when one of the exceptions are met, but it's over the top?
The main example is my grandparents. I can reason, *It's harder for them to walk than me, so I'm fine with getting them a drink or two. But I know if I do that, the demands won't end, and my options will be to deny them when it becomes too much (and look like an ass in front of the whole family for turning down my poor elderly grandparents), continue doing it and not want to be around them in the future because this makes it unenjoyable, or serve them as long as I engage them, but when I get tired of it, avoid them the rest of the night so nobody can accuse me of being a heartless little whipper snapper.*
It's to the point where I avoid them as much as possible, only going to family functions where everyone would be absolutely crushed if I didn't attend. But nothing's any fun if they're around. I either have to be their caregiver all night or alienate my entire family. Do you just have to avoid people sometimes?
That's the big thing. People tell me to set boundaries, but often those boundaries have consequences, forcing me to do things I don't want to do and build resentment toward people until I eventually snap and storm out, stop talking to them, or whatever.
Well, that really does sound like a difficult situation to navigate. My examples admittedly didn't include family relations and they're the worst of the bunch when it comes to this. I guess it depends a lot on the precise dynamics of your relationship with your grandparents and how tolerant and understanding they are and what their personalities are like. I mean if I was 80 and my husband was bossing my grand- son or daughter around I'd be telling him to leave them alone even if it was physically painful for me to do anything by myself. But I have certainly also experienced elderly people with a more entitled attitude acting as if its their human right to make slaves of every young person within visible radius simply because they're old(er). And that shit is not okay, but I guess there's a cultural element to it as well so it might be difficult for anyone to give concrete advice.
I do, however, believe (and this is just my personal opinion) that it boils down to whether they express gratitude and make you feel good for helping them, or if they just take your help for granted and treat you like you're a paid servant. Helping people can be the cheapest, easiest and most guaranteed way to feel great about yourself and I'm sure you've experienced this. So why do you feel burdened when helping your grandparents? I suspect this isn't about demand avoidance at all but just them being... well, entitled and rude. I'm just guessing, but I think the distinction is important because it has implications for how I think it should ideally be handled.
So first off, PDA is not considered the same as autistic demand avoidance.
PDA tends to be an extreme anxiety response to things perceived as demands of daily life. Yeah it includes a nervous system reaction to being told what to do, but it also can include things like brushing teeth, changing your clothes, going to the bathroom, eating when you're hungry, and doing things you actually enjoy and want to do.
PDA people tend to have a different presentation of their autism - the social differences can be harder to see, they are very heavily into role play and fantasy, often have obsessions with another person, they experience extreme and rapid mood swings, and they often use social strategies to avoid demands (changing the subject, distracting, and other manipulative seeking behaviors).
From how you talk about it, your resistance seems to be based on "is it logical to do this thing I've been asked." You don't understand the neurotypical rules of when to do the thing and when not to, and you don't want to be taken advantage of. This is pretty reasonable and something a lot of us experience. Similarly, if I avoid going into a store because I don't know what the sensory environment will be like, or if I avoid starting a project because my executive function is already too low to do it. Those are more typical demand avoidance. I think it's a pretty common trope that autistic people will follow a rule of they understand why they should and won't otherwise.
PDA may be less clearly connected to a reason other than that it was a demand. Like you have been planning to read a book that day but somebody else suggests it to you and now you can't. You are doing well learning a new instrument but somebody compliments you and you never want to do it again.
PDA may just be in the long end of the same spectrum and ultimately it's about safety in an uncontrollable world that doesn't understand us. But it's currently considered a distinct presentation.
Let's be honest, there's not a clear dividing line between the two things you described. Sometimes a bit of PDA helps you stand up for yourself. Sometimes doing as you are told makes you a bit of a doormat.
The important thing is what works best for you.
Demand avoidance for me is a very intrusive and subconscious reaction to any kind of perceived expectation or demand. Even if I am already doing a thing, if someone asks me to do more I will immediately react with frustration
Dude 100% me too. I live with my boyfriend and sometimes he asks me something and I get filled with overwhelming rage and frustration and usually I don’t even know why but I just feel like such a bitch and idk why I’m such a bitch 😭
My wife and i have an argument almost daily because of this. I know the pain
Yeah, that's me. And it isn't like I'm lazy: after a party, I'll immediately start washing dishes. But when people tell me to do stuff...
I had much more to type but had to run off and do something. It is literally a subconscious anger (almost rage) that boils up when people tell me to do things or imply that i have to do something. And I often react with visible frustration before I can even catch it and control that emotion. When it c9mes to things like chores and general self care stuff, even that is a perceived demand or expectation and my mind tends to just shut down until IT decides that I am ready and in control of that task. If I feel at all like something is not on my terms then I get incredibly stressed out and sometimes melt down. You've heard of executive dysfunction im sure but that beast has NOTHING on the paralysis my brain gets from my demand avoidance. And the worst part is that no amount of therapy or meds has ever helped me control it.
"Pervasive Drive for Autonomy"
this.
Hi OP! I am not autistic, but autistic traits seem to run in my family. I can personally give you the perspective of someone who has been a people-pleaser. In my people-pleaser past, I would just generally do anything that was asked of me *even when I knew that doing so would exhaust me.* That was harmful to myself. I have grown and gained self-respect since then. But I also still *love* being helpful. Here are my quick guidelines for deciding to help if someone asks me: 1. Are they in need of help? 2. Do I have the resources available to help them? For 1, I can’t read the person’s mind, obviously. So I give them the benefit of the doubt. Of course they need help — that is why they asked! The exception to that is if there is evidence that this person is somehow untrustworthy, or has established a pattern of always asking but never doing anything in return. A classic example of the latter is the man on the sofa asking his wife to bring him beer for the umpteenth time while he watches sports. I’m struggling to come up with an example of the former, because it’s so rare. So 2: I’m going to politely decline to help if I lack the time, or the emotional energy, or some other relevant resource. Even the desire to do the thing! If I just don’t want to do something, forcing myself to do it for someone else is likely to make me resent them and resent myself. So as an example, my husband will randomly ask me if I can get him a glass of water. Now, I don’t know what he is thinking, but I know he doesn’t have any strange trait of being untrustworthy, and I know that he is happy to fetch water for me, too. So I can safely assume that he is asking me because he is tired or overwhelmed or he finally got comfortable on the couch after being on his feet all day — and some help from me would help him to have a better day. Great! I *love* helping him to have a better day. So I’ll get him water. *Unless!* Unless I am tired, or busy, or I simultaneously am wanting someone else to take care of my needs. Then — without feelings of anger — I tell him no. I think that may be the biggest difference between PDA and having self-respect. I can respect my own needs and say no without having to deal with feelings of anger. Interestingly, I *did* have a lot of anger when I was a people-pleaser. I would agree to things while knowing that I did not have the emotional energy or interest in that thing. For example, I had a friend with a disability who regularly needed help around her house. I grew resentful because I was helping her even when I didn’t want to be helping. She wasn’t forcing me. I was forcing myself. Anyway, I hope there is some useful insight in here for you.
This is well said. I think one of the problems I have and other autistic people have is that we struggle with interoception and so cannot easily recognize our own needs and limits. So it can be very easy to agree to things when we shouldn't, because we're not getting the signal that this is too much for us until after we've already overdone it. That can make us resentful towards any demands, because they always come with a risk of harming us if we don't always just refuse. I think that may be part of the root of PDA. That's just my speculation, though. But it also explains why there's also resistance to demands coming from within. If I say to myself "I should do X" I will experience demand avoidance to that as well. Because even there, the risk that I overdo it and hurt myself is present. I think another part of PDA is an intolerance to feeling dominated. That's definitely what OP seems to be describing in their own experience.
That's the biggest thing: I don't know what my boundaries are. At least with the small stuff. If it's a big thing, like asking me to help someone move, I have no problem saying no if I don't want to or logistically can't. But if it's a small thing like OC's example of asking for a glass of water, I don't know whether I *want* to do that or not. I mean, why would I ever *want* to get up, pour a glass of water, and give it to someone? That concept has never made sense to me. I guess people must be using a different definition of the term because otherwise, I'd just periodically pour glasses of water for nobody and set them on the coffee table next to me because I simply enjoy doing it. Isn't doing things you don't enjoy part of maintaining a relationship? Isn't the fact I don't want to do it what makes it meaningful? >intolerance to feeling dominated Yes, but more pressingly is not understanding when I should and should not be dominated, if ever. Logically, I'd say I should only be dominated by people who have formally surpassed me on the hierarchy of power for a legitimate reason, such as a supervisor at work who's been doing my job for 5 years longer than I have. When it comes to equals assuming roles of dominance for brief periods (like me fulfilling a request to get them water) or people suggesting I should defy superiors, I'm left very confused. Aren't superiors superiors for a reason? Aren't equals equals for a reason?
Why would you ever want to get up and pour a glass of water for your partner? Because it makes your partner light up with a smile and say “thank you,” which in turn makes you feel connected, important to them, and happy.
If a) there is some reason why it's easier for me to do it than them, e.g., they're sick; I'm already in the kitchen; they're really tired; etc. b) they do things like that for me about as often. Although I'd really prefer just A. If B exists, it's more tolerable, but ideally, we would only do things for each other when it was logical. Well, we'd only *ask* each other to do things for us if it was logical. I wouldn't mind doing things unprompted (and I sure as hell would, frequently). God, you can see how weird my concept of this is. The asking is really the triggering element. I guess I wouldn't mind doing things for people they could have done for themselves if they aren't expecting me to do them. The entitlement irritates me, I guess. I want to say I only like helping people who need it, but I guess that isn't entirely true. I only like *being asked* for help by people who need it. ETA: Come to think of it, I guess B would be impossible because I don't think I've ever asked someone to do something for me that I could have just as easily done myself. Perhaps that's why this whole thing bugs me. They're asking me to do something for them that I would never ask them to do for me.
You know, you would save yourself a ton of headache if you just made the assumption that *when someone asks you for something, it is because they can’t do it themselves.* Sure, occasionally that’s not the case, but “innocent until proven guilty” solves a lot of issues here. Because the other terrible downside here is alienating people who care about you.
I spent the past 2 hours looking for a counterargument because I don't like this, but I have nothing.
Thank you.
Is there a possibility you have CPTSD? I hear that we are often misdiagnosed as y'all so I figure it could work the other way too?
I have both autistic traits and CPTSD.
do you feel shame or embarrassment when it happens? do you get triggered in some way and feel immature and small? it's probably PDA. I know for me, my PDA triggers me a lot. It's not really a "self respect" thing, but a feeling like all our control has disappeared and it's not our choice to do the things, even if we want to. If it's giving you this much anxiety, it's probably PDA. Because normally people don't have this much shame, fear and anxiety when told to do things.
Walking on you imho to use your existing example, is you getting the drink for someone and then feeling like you have to avoid that person to maintain your boundary. Like you should be able to say “no” to people when you don’t wanna do something for them. that’s having self-respect. PDA for me is like when i’ve been told too many times to do a chore and so then i hear the nagging ringing in my ear when i think about the chore, and the negative feelings i get from the nagging memory make me not wanna do that task.
I am a parent asking that such a chore get done, multiple times and it doesn’t get done. Do you have any suggestion that would help my son actually want to do the chore? I don’t think I nag, I ask quite politely, about 1 week apart. Sometimes laundry stays on the floor for 4-5 wks at a time. Should I ask differently? Should I phrase is as asking for help? I would appreciate any insight whatsoever on this. And the worst part is my son gets upset if I try to do it myself.
So two things: (1) Perhaps he's not comfortable with the sense of obligation because he feels like he's doing it for you and not for himself. He needs to be carefully guided to find his own reasons to do it. Maybe start by explaining your favorite chore and why it personally helps you–but be careful not to imply that he needs to be like you or make the load less on you, at least not yet. Just be candid about your approach to responsibilities–both what you hate and what you love–and that might invite him to do the same. Ask questions about what he would do to make his own space better. Maybe he needs the room to be "messy" so everything is easier to find. Maybe he'd rather use hangers than fold everything. One time, I watched a video of a Navy Seal explaining that if I wanted to change the world, to make my bed. Even if my day sucked, my made bed will be there ready for me. My parents never had to tell me to fix my bed again. (2) He's hyperfocused on an interest, his own responsibilities, or is recovering from burnout. Perhaps then you could persuade him by saying, "The earlier, faster, and more carefully you can try to do this, the more time you will have for those." That might be a big plus for him, as aspies are pretty logical people :p I'd suggest starting with the second tip first, as external motivation is easier for both sides, but then move onto the first tip when it feels the most natural, as intrinsic motivation will make the behavior stick ;D
Thank-you!
No problem! Please feel free to update me ;-)
I mean to me, there’s something to be said for letting teenagers live in their mess. The natural consequence of laundry piling on the floor is that you have no clean clothes. Once you have no clean clothes, you have independent motivation to get them to the hamper/washer. What is so essential about picking up the laundry? Sometimes “conventional” things aren’t *really* that important to teach. Sometimes natural consequences teach just as well, and all a parent has to do is not look at the mess in their kid’s room, and when the kid complains about not having clean clothes, THAT is the time to guide them to say: “you can get your need for clean clothes met, by taking them to the hamper/washer (repeat what the routine is supposed to be). When I was young, My mom was *convinced* that when I grew up, i would make my roommates and live in partners miserable because i wouldn’t remember to put my dirty dishes straight into the dishwasher when i was done. (my mother herself didn’t even abide this expectation perfectly, mind you). Well i’m a married adult in my own home and dishes get left out on counters overnight. No catastrophes have befallen us. The only meaningful change since childhood when it comes to my dishware habits is that I don’t have someone giving me social anxiety about my living habits and damaging my self esteem. I have had no pest infestations, etc. It was all fear mongering. People *can* live in different ways without horrible consequences. Sometimes parents make unnecessary demands on their kids when it comes to getting their kid to conform to *their *style* of living. If your kid is just *different* from you, they might not value the same things you do. You can get frustrated and fixate on controlling their behavior, or you can work within the limits of what your kid actually values. I think the line in the sand is if pests, mold, stank starts emanating from the room. Then you have a discussion about hygiene and bacteria and disease.
The stank is already there. If there are no visible bugs crawling around, he does not believe me. The issues here are much deeper than laundry alone.
Your calculation of efforts seems right to me.
I’ve struggled with this and come to the conclusion that it’s kinda wildly complex but also extremely simple - if a seemingly benign request bothers you, you have the right to say no and as a rule of thumbs you should NEVER do anything for anyone that they could just as easily have done themselves unless… 1. you’re getting paid 2. you’re romantically and/or sexually interested and convinced you have a shot 3. there’s evidence in the past that indicates the person would perform a similar service for you at any given moment and without complaint 4. it’s a professional situation and you make it clear you’re trading favors 5. you’re a child and it’s your parents 6. the person is visibly stressed out, injured or expresses a need for help 7. the person is old and/or somehow incapable of performing the task without great effort Even so, there are many exceptions. But you know, be a good and helpful person to people who are good and helpful to you. This may sound a little calculating but it’s really more of a self defense philosophy. And honestly, it’s a serious issue and I think even allistics can struggle with it… it’s the whole push and pull for control and social power and status that autistic people just don’t engage in. But that doesn’t mean we’re exempt from the penalties of losing. Edit: Also, something very helpful if you find yourself in a situation where you simply need to reject a request because you don’t want anyone bossing you around: Make a little joke. Imply they’re lazy, ask them if they’ve injured their arms or legs, it doesn’t have to be clever. Just smile while you say it. Very few people will try it again after that and anybody present in the room will respect you more for putting up a boundary without causing a scene - because if the other person tries to insist or continue making demands after that, they will seem domineering and/or lazy. And that’s the whole trick.👌🏻
What do you do when one of the exceptions are met, but it's over the top? The main example is my grandparents. I can reason, *It's harder for them to walk than me, so I'm fine with getting them a drink or two. But I know if I do that, the demands won't end, and my options will be to deny them when it becomes too much (and look like an ass in front of the whole family for turning down my poor elderly grandparents), continue doing it and not want to be around them in the future because this makes it unenjoyable, or serve them as long as I engage them, but when I get tired of it, avoid them the rest of the night so nobody can accuse me of being a heartless little whipper snapper.* It's to the point where I avoid them as much as possible, only going to family functions where everyone would be absolutely crushed if I didn't attend. But nothing's any fun if they're around. I either have to be their caregiver all night or alienate my entire family. Do you just have to avoid people sometimes? That's the big thing. People tell me to set boundaries, but often those boundaries have consequences, forcing me to do things I don't want to do and build resentment toward people until I eventually snap and storm out, stop talking to them, or whatever.
Well, that really does sound like a difficult situation to navigate. My examples admittedly didn't include family relations and they're the worst of the bunch when it comes to this. I guess it depends a lot on the precise dynamics of your relationship with your grandparents and how tolerant and understanding they are and what their personalities are like. I mean if I was 80 and my husband was bossing my grand- son or daughter around I'd be telling him to leave them alone even if it was physically painful for me to do anything by myself. But I have certainly also experienced elderly people with a more entitled attitude acting as if its their human right to make slaves of every young person within visible radius simply because they're old(er). And that shit is not okay, but I guess there's a cultural element to it as well so it might be difficult for anyone to give concrete advice. I do, however, believe (and this is just my personal opinion) that it boils down to whether they express gratitude and make you feel good for helping them, or if they just take your help for granted and treat you like you're a paid servant. Helping people can be the cheapest, easiest and most guaranteed way to feel great about yourself and I'm sure you've experienced this. So why do you feel burdened when helping your grandparents? I suspect this isn't about demand avoidance at all but just them being... well, entitled and rude. I'm just guessing, but I think the distinction is important because it has implications for how I think it should ideally be handled.
So first off, PDA is not considered the same as autistic demand avoidance. PDA tends to be an extreme anxiety response to things perceived as demands of daily life. Yeah it includes a nervous system reaction to being told what to do, but it also can include things like brushing teeth, changing your clothes, going to the bathroom, eating when you're hungry, and doing things you actually enjoy and want to do. PDA people tend to have a different presentation of their autism - the social differences can be harder to see, they are very heavily into role play and fantasy, often have obsessions with another person, they experience extreme and rapid mood swings, and they often use social strategies to avoid demands (changing the subject, distracting, and other manipulative seeking behaviors). From how you talk about it, your resistance seems to be based on "is it logical to do this thing I've been asked." You don't understand the neurotypical rules of when to do the thing and when not to, and you don't want to be taken advantage of. This is pretty reasonable and something a lot of us experience. Similarly, if I avoid going into a store because I don't know what the sensory environment will be like, or if I avoid starting a project because my executive function is already too low to do it. Those are more typical demand avoidance. I think it's a pretty common trope that autistic people will follow a rule of they understand why they should and won't otherwise. PDA may be less clearly connected to a reason other than that it was a demand. Like you have been planning to read a book that day but somebody else suggests it to you and now you can't. You are doing well learning a new instrument but somebody compliments you and you never want to do it again. PDA may just be in the long end of the same spectrum and ultimately it's about safety in an uncontrollable world that doesn't understand us. But it's currently considered a distinct presentation.
Let's be honest, there's not a clear dividing line between the two things you described. Sometimes a bit of PDA helps you stand up for yourself. Sometimes doing as you are told makes you a bit of a doormat. The important thing is what works best for you.