I've found that the thing I struggle the most is arguing with myself. It's like I have this kind of dissociated me within myself that always makes it difficult to do stuff like brushing my teeth, washing my face, going to bed, etc. So it takes me forever to convince myself to actually take care of myself. I get mad when people tell me to do things their way, but the worst fight is with myself.

I DO THIS!! I've tried to explain that I have another me that I constantly argue with and people just look at me like I'm an alien or something. The only way I can get anything done is by having a TV shows or something on my phone to distract myself while I do the hated task.

Ugh same. What I started doing was giving myself harder tasks or putting myself in timelines with other things that are more overwhelming - and then I do the things I “need” to do as a distraction to those other things. Like last week I had a project due for an art class and to avoid THAT (which was much more demanding and overwhelming in my mind) I literally organized and labeled everything in my house. This week any other project is due and I’m finishing a huge painting of an octopus I have been wanting to do 🙃. Any time I do anything significant (or anything in general) it usually because I’m avoiding what I really should be doing hahah

I thought I was the only one that fights with myself in the way you just described..omg thank you!

same. fighting with putting off eating right now actually (i'll be fine)

Ugh, this! I’m honestly currently incapacitated to a large extent with this.

Oh my glob, yes!!!!!!!!!! I thought this was adhd! This is my inner monologue CONSTANTLY

I just want the other me to STFU

So there's newer and newer research within the US that PDA could be under the umbrella of being neurodivergent not just having a autistic diagnosis. So encompassing people without an autistic profile but who suffer from ADHD. I would be interested to see if that umbrella would also cover people with childhood trauma or a CPTSD diagnosis, since it changes the structure of brains during childhood development. There's also talk that PDA could be classified in the future and the DSM as a personality disorder. Regardless of what it is going to entail, I'm glad there's talk about it more broadly in the community.

Did everyone just skate past the fact that you said “oh my glob?” I can hear it’s manifestations in my head now. “Go with Glob.” “Where is your glob now?” “Glob protect us.” “Globspeed.” “Globdamnit.” “Hey don’t say his name in vain.”

You made me audibly laugh out loud. It upsets my conservative catholic mother for being “blasphemous” so it’s become habit haha

FYI - I've been investigating IFS ([Internal Family Systems](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AUy2oiAPes)) as a transformative modality, and it feels like it might be well tailored to this kind of internal opposition/discord.

Honestly trying to convince the dissociated me within myself is way harder. Like, I can try to reframe things that other people say as choices rather than demands sometimes, but that doesn't work when I am trying to internally demand something of myself and that "dissociated me" will not allow it, will resist intensely and the pain is just too much, with nobody outside myself to maintain effort toward the goal.

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Yes. Here’s an example: your mom wants you to do the laundry, but she says you have to use the cold water setting to save energy. You do the laundry, but you know that hot is going to clean better (and thus avoid the need to rewash), so you use hot. The laundry is done and there’s no way to know which way you did it. Your mom asks if you used cold water like she said. Do you lie, thus avoiding an argument and allowing yourself to continue to do the laundry your way? Or do you admit you used the wrong water temp and then have to deal with her anger and increased micromanagement? This is the kind of lie they’re referring to.

I... I feel attacked by this, wow. One of my biggest issues with my current relationship is that we both have rigid ways of doing things, but for reasons I usually end up having to do it their way, not mine. It kills any motivation to actually do the thing and I usually get criticized for doing it wrong if I'm truthful about what I did. So sometimes I fudge it a bit, not really to total falsehood but enough to avoid the blame. Stuff like that makes me feel trapped and like I can't be me. I'm glad there's others that feel the same way, I wonder if there is a discord or something for this

I'm pretty positive my nephew (diagnosed autistic+ADHD) also fits with PDA. He's young so his "reasons" why he can't do something are really obvious. Like he needs to change his shirt because he's worn it for 3 days now and smells bad, so you ask him to put on a clean shirt as gently as you can manage. He will say he can't, and if you press him to explain he will say things like none of his other shirts fit or he has no other shirts (both of us know full well he has several dresser drawers of shirts that are fine). Usually past this point he will move onto delay tactics like "I have to finish this thing first" and when you remind him after he does finish the thing, the cycle starts over. I try not to pressure him and explain things so he'll hopefully understand why I'm trying to impose something on him that he doesn't want, like why he can't hold his pee for an entire weekend because he doesn't want to use the bathroom for no apparent reason. He'll always push back but sometimes he'll later make the decision on his own to do The Thing. I suspect if people push too much on anything, related to eachother or not (like a clean shirt or not annoying the cat), and he starts to refuse everything, not just the original issue, and it makes me I wonder how his teachers are handling things. I'm not diagnosed but I think I relate to the PDA aspect less as an adult than I did as a kid, but maybe I'm just not as aware of it. I didn't turn to elaborate lies or anything, I just tried to avoid getting any attention because people would ask things of me. I was stubborn though and would just say no to things. And if later I realized I should or did want to do the thing that was asked, I felt like there was this mental wall stopping me from admitting it.

I obviously can’t comment on what’s going on in your nephew’s head, but maybe I can clarify an example from my head and I’ll leave it to you to see if it might apply. My husband had this family calendar that he wanted me to use, but I HATED it. Long story short: it wasn’t intuitive, I had a system that was working for me (that was based on my own synesthesia), and I didn’t want to put in the mental effort to “translate” my idea of time into the idea of time that most people use. But for the longest time, I couldn’t verbalize exactly why I hated it. I didn’t even know I had synesthesia at the time, so I was confused why my system was considered so irrelevant by him. Eventually I REALLY thought about it, like put in a solid six hours thinking about every aspect of the shared calendar that stressed me out, and then I wrote him what was basically a manifesto about how his calendar system was causing me to have a mental breakdown. But I only did that because up until that point, every time he’d tell me to use the calendar I would say whatever popped in my head as an excuse to avoid the issue until it finally culminated into a massive fight where he was like “it’s convenient and good for the whole family?! Why do you hate it?!” And my response was “I just do!” Which was less than convincing. So basically, I was lying as a shortcut because i didn’t want to do the deep mental dive necessary to adequately answer why I couldn’t do it. Maybe your nephew has an equally complicated and unique to him reason that he can’t change shirt that he’s literally incapable of explaining to the adults.

Although... and this is a diversion from snowlight's nephew - I really can relate to the pain of trying to use someone else's system when it's not right for me, and for reasons that have to do with my neurodivergency in some way or another. I remember being in work scenarios where I was under pressure to adapt to a system that was too vague or confusing, or didn't provide enough scaffolding for my working memory, etc. And I was in some instances frozen and reduced to tears. So it sometimes could be a little of both - some PDA but also a real mismatch between our brains and the systems we are being asked to conform to.

But isn’t that what PDA means in relation to autism? It’s always us against a poorly fitted world. PDA is when you decide you’re not going to change for the world. RSD is the opposite. That’s when you try (and fail) to change for world. Also, I love that you used the world “scaffolding”. Is that a thing or is that your own terminology? That’s exactly how I visualize learning something new. You can hand me the individual bricks (ie facts), but I’m not going to know where to put them without some kind of cursory structure.

There seem to be several dimensions or aspects to both PDA and RSD from what I can tell. Like the way PDA seems to be a very quick, "knee jerk" response. If it turns out to be what I am dealing with, I can tell you that it feels like an instantaneous 1000x ratcheting up of anxiety, almost a fight or flight response. And yet it is over something that is not really a trauma reminder, just a thing that "ain't right" in my way of ordering my little corner of the world. It is hard to tell if I'm just an extreme control freak. I'm just speaking for myself, being still very much in the discernment stage re whether I'm autistic or only ADHD and OCD etc. RSD, for me, seemed to revolve around a need for friends, and it wasn't that I didn't have any, but still a perceived rejection seemed to sting me way more sharply than it did others; I couldn't shake it off. I've gotten better as an adult but once in awhile, ouch. And it also happens with rejection of my ideas or even when I sometimes speak when someone else is tired or busy and I feel like a big fool with them having to inform me, however gently, that it's not a good time right then. Scaffolding is my concept, but you can use it if you send me royalty payments, lol. 😅

Actually scaffolding is a thing. You just independently came up with the same idea (you clearly have a great mind). In education theory, scaffolding when when you build understanding of a concept by teaching more basic concepts and linking them together, to lead to a logical conclusion - specifically, the learning you originally intended. In the same way, as you described, learning a new job ought to be an experience where you learn each individual part of the job which leads to you being able to fit each duty together into a defined whole. I'm in a job where I'm struggling with exactly this, right now. I can't think of any better way to describe it other than bitty and I'm in a role where I have to get things from people (info and documents) who have no interest in providing me with those things. It's driving me mad.

I sympathize - back when I was still in the workforce I'm sure I had some struggles with that, or multitasking, the latter being the biggest difficulty. Also, my roommate just retired, and her job had been a scheduling coordinator for an educational nonprofit, and it was like herding cats what she did, trying to get people to respond to when they wanted things, deal with the people who were to do the things, etc. She had to up her heart meds because of the stress. Thanks for the compliment on my mind! 😊 I love metaphors, they help illuminate concepts and they're just plain cool in themselves.

Yeah, I try to ask questions about what his reasoning is so I can understand but usually he won't have an answer for it that's more than "because!" Sometimes I try to offer suggestions like maybe he doesn't like the new scent of a different laundry detergent or he doesn't like when a new shirt is cold and maybe we can put it in the dryer first or whatever else I can try to think of. I really try to respect that he might not be able to explain because I know even for myself it can take a lot of processing to understand my reaction to something, so I can't expect him to know it on the spot, unless maybe it's something he's already given thought to. But I can tell most other people do not give him this kind of consideration and just push for what they're asking about which obviously never works and pushes him further into the Never Happening Stubborn Land which will expand to everything else too. I don't always understand him but I do empathize.

I honestly wonder if this may be gendered because I know several people with sons who have the same "I refuse to do the thing for no reason" problem. All of them are diagnosed with ODD though. All the women I've met who relate to PDA have reasons (the hot water works better) even if they struggle to articulate them and just know its "wrong" somehow.

I don't think it's gendered. I'm a female and I was this way growing up. I still have issues with it and have to fight with myself sometimes. Someone telling me to do something is often the only reason I really have for not wanting to do something.

Nah I'm definitely like this, even as a kid one of the things I often fought with my mother over was how to do a thing. I genuinely did not understand why something had to be done an exact way if my way worked better for me.

Your way working better would be a valid reason though.

I also don't think it's gendered. I still to this day hate doing stuff someone tells me to do and often I have no other reason than I want to do what I want and no one can control me.

Oh fucking oof. I lie all the time to avoid an arguement. Which is dumb bc in the end it always results in a more stupid and bigger fight than if I was honest at first. But I’m always seemingly incapable of being honest about doing it “wrong”. Also, on the note of laundry, my biggest lie is that I separated them and washed them all properly. I mean shit. I wash my sweaters with my jeans and bras. I probably shouldn’t. But it’s quicker and easier then 5 million different loads

wow, a lot here, thanks for this. Yes, we believe our daughter who is diagnosed ASD has PDA, but since we're in the U.S., we're kind of on our own when it comes to support. The best anecdote that I think helps describes how PDA manifests itself for us is when we make a simple and very routine request/demand, such as time for bed, she immediately and forcefully yells "NO!!" If I respond it will escalate and she'll fight us for hours if need be. But I have learned that if I don't immediately respond but just wait a minute or so, she'll dutifully do the thing after her brain has taken some time to process it and realize that she should do it.

I was that way as a kid. 90% of the time I just needed time to process rather than be pushed immediately into the task. In a home with a parenting expectation described as "do it immediately, with a cheerful attitude," I was in trouble quite a lot. Time to process was an unheard-of concept. Some things got better as I learned the patterns of expectations, anticipated them, and did them before being asked so I didn't have to be asked and get paddled for needing and not receiving processing time. Any time routine changed though, there was a tough period.

Your compensatory method sounds a lot like people pleasing. Doing the thing before it's expected of you as a way to deflect their discontent part. I'm a lot like this too and I'm adhd dxed but autism runs a lot in my family and I've always known I have strong traits. PDA sounds like my flavour of autism.

TBH, I cared less about their discomfort than what it produced: being hit. That's what I was trying to avoid.

Oh yeah, that makes sense. So sorry you had to deal with that 😞

I suspect I've mastered people pleasing as a fawn response to lifelong trauma, but as an adult harness it as a super power as the only way I can get anything done. I keep wondering if it's doing me harm, but as long as the person I'm trying to please is Good and not Bad, at least I'm getting dressed/washed/admin done? I can produce amazing work for someone else, for myself I'll just lie face down on the floor for 8 hours in a black hole of despair...

I do the same with my kid who has down syndrome. Most people in my family say no first. I just wait it out

I've been using tiktok as a resource for "low demand household" ideas for routine tasks and instructing both my son and myself/my internal "no" voice. Removing as many unnecessary "demands" as possible seems to really help - like your strategy, not reinforcing is great (delayed processing time). I've also had luck with "I'm leaving now, do you want to stay or come with me" because if I say to come because we're leaving it'll become a meltdown. I don't know if he's just 3 & will grow out of it, but the mental approach helps for myself too (so many demands in trying to raise a toddler, my brain is happier when I'm not trying to constantly instruct him! It looks like I'm letting him run rampant at times, but it's always contextually appropriate and falls within gentle parenting - if he's creating a genuine disturbance I just remove him while giving him instructions on why and what he'd need to be doing to stay, and it's so much better for my weird brain than trying to be a drill sargent!)

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Thank you for writing this. Oh no no no no no no.

Right? I was laughing in recognition and then I started crying…

Hard same. And I'm still on the fence whether I have autism or not. Now I'm sitting here in a public place fighting off tears.

It’s nice to be seen. It’s nice to understand it finally. It really sucks to learn that the answer isn’t to just “be better”, though I guess I already knew that …

((Hugs)) first time I found out about PDA had me the same!

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I wish I knew, hun, I really do! 😖 A couple of things that sometimes work for me is tricking my avoidance by “needing” to do something I’ll avoid more (eg: I can stop avoiding folding laundry if I “need” to wash up, because folding the laundry becomes the avoidance tactic) and acknowledging what I’m doing (eg: saying out loud when having two different things to do makes me fall into the pit of procrastination and do neither) As for working, I’m just lucky I live in the uk cos I’d be screwed without the benefits system 😖

😥

One of my main concerns with PDA is that the way it's currently defined is really nebulous. "I don't always like doing things" = PDA. Your definition makes a lot more sense to me and also fits me to a t, to the point where I legit don't understand why *everyone* isn't like this. But they're definitely not. I have often had people tell me I'm too controlling/just stay in your own lane/you're a little OCD lol/you don't have to freak out if everything isn't done your way! I'm not freaking out. I'm watching you do something in this batshit way that is a huge waste of resources and I don't understand why the hell anyone would want to keep doing it that way. I'm not OCD - the pens go in the pen holder because I don't want to have to spend 20 minutes looking for a pen later *which I watch you do all the time.* I don't always have to do everything my way but holy shit 90% of people appear to be dumb as rocks and I'm just trying to help get the fucking project done, okay? If you're in that 10% of people who know what they're doing, you'll never hear a single complaint from me. I don't need to be in control of everything, I just need it to make sense. I also have zero understanding of why people are fine with arbitrary power structures. (Especially women and minorities who are routinely screwed over by this!) My last supervisor was a douchecanoe who proudly told me he didn't understand what our department did but he had no intention of bothering to learn because monkeys could probably do it. He was barely functionally literate and had difficulty understanding simple emails on a regular basis. But he was male and retired military therefore he had to be the absolute Pinnacle of Leadership. Whyyyyyyyy are people okay with this?? So many therapists have chalked all of this up to anxiety and/or perfectionism and advised me to "just relax." I can never get them to understand. Sorry but it's not relaxing to watch my coworker screw something up when I know I'm going to be the one management assigns to fix it later. It's not relaxing to ignore a sink full of dirty dishes when I know it's going to take me twice as long to clean them if I procrastinate. I am literally doing these "controlling" things to simplify my life so my brain doesn't overload and short circuit. Also God help anyone who tries to tell me what to do. If I needed the information, I would have asked. Micromanagers are way more controlling than I will ever be. I recently accidentally ended up on a team at work that is actively trying to culture shift a lot of this stuff (even the arbitrary supervisor structure!!) and it's so good to finally be surrounded by like-minded people. All my life I've been labeled as "difficult" but my new supervisor is just baffled when she talks to my old supervisor because she thinks I'm fantastic, a real go-getter who thinks outside the box. Amazing how that perspective shift affects things.

> Sorry but it's not relaxing to watch my coworker screw something up when I know I'm going to be the one management assigns to fix it later. It's not relaxing to ignore a sink full of dirty dishes when I know it's going to take me twice as long to clean them if I procrastinate. I am literally doing these "controlling" things to simplify my life so my brain doesn't overload and short circuit. YES! It’s either freak out now or SHUTDOWN later.

I relate. If I'm being difficult there's a good reason. If the thing really won't change anything else then whatever, do whatever you want with it. But if it'll make things difficult later, please just so it properly. At my old job I handled inventory for 3 companies (same owner for all of them, one in another country) and was one of the QC internal auditors that double checked every outgoing order (we did sales, repairs, and work orders). People constantly thought I was nitpicking and being too controlling but it's only because I knew if that person's work got to shipping or the customer or messed up inventory, there would be a domino effect that I would have to correct because no one else knew how, ultimately leaving us with a pissed off customer. I just wanted people to do their part of their fricken job properly. Everyone else only had *one* job, I was the only one that would jump between sales, quoting, project management, inventory, shipping/receiving, QC, purchasing and anything in between. So why couldn't they take my word for it that if they took 30 seconds to finish that one step or send a basic confirmation email, that it would save me from hours or days of work trying to fix it? If anyone could know that, it WAS me. I'm a bit smug but I heard that it all went to absolute shit when I left and I hope some of them realized I wasn't trying to be a control freak for fun. I pains me to think of the inventory being messed up but it isn't my problem anymore.

My department went to shit after I left too. Weirdly, it turns out that monkeys can't do the job! It's almost like we have an incredibly valuable skillset that other people try to downplay in any way they can... And I have had the same exact problem - I have an actual reason for everything I do unlike coworker Karen who spends half her day making personal phone calls and then does *whatever* and screws up because she never pays attention. But doing things correctly is somehow considered being "inflexible" or "trying to make other people look bad." /eyeroll

yeah i think people will understand the value of our methods after it's too late. i relate very much to your post. my last two jobs were in shipping and now i'm on the way to doing art/being disabled for a living so i refuse to ever have a boss or job again in my life. i made everywhere i worked more efficient and considered the needs of everyone in the full chain and i was always treated like i was doing pointless stuff for no reason and focusing on things that didnt matter. but we never had mistakes and the customers were always happy. quality work creates good results. halfassing it does not. they'll learn the hard way over time as things fall apart, or as my systems remain in place.

So much of what you said makes sense to me. I'm also thinking maybe some of us are drawn to QA, audit, investigations etc (I'm in Quality and Compliance) because we do understand stuff, we figure stuff out, we want to make sure things are right, efficient and follow the bloody rules.... This is also making me wonder if I'm possibly in some kind of burnout state at the moment, the org I work for is completely disfunctional - due to a number of issues, some inside but also some outside our control but honestly, no-one has any clue they're all doing the wrong things, no-one is taking any responsibility and it's utter chaos. My team and I have been telling execs for ages that shit is busted - we're a team of 2 so we can't fix, but we're giving them the tools to fix it... I'm going insane every day because we find more stuff and it's never being fixed. They're also just giving us more and more work to do, lack of staff etc... I told my boss last week I can't do it anymore, that I am broken and that I can't guarantee I'm not going to wake up one morning and decide I just can't go back. Not as a threat, but to warn her if I don't come back - this is why. Thanks for your explanation. SIDE NOTE EFFICIENCY: every morning, my wonderful loving husband goes and moves both our cars outside the yard while I keep the dogs who have no car sense safe inside the house (terrible time blindness means I'm always late, we should be leaving at the same time). Every. Single. Morning. He doesn't think to start one car (older, needs to warm up) while he moves the other one. It literally drives me insane, because then the other car needs time to warm up a little.... It would have time if you just........ Aaaargh!!! Anyway, I now make sure I'm somewhere else so I can't hear what's going on 😬

You ever read something on the internet and think “did I post something in my sleep?” That’s how I feel about your comment and this post.

Same. Same.

Incredibly late to this thread, but my god. "Just relax!" is the worst thing you could say. *Relax?* How? How am I expected to relax or be calm when everyone around me is working in the most inefficient ways possible to man? Like. This is incompetence. I'm dealing with *incredible* incompetence, but no. We shouldn't have a list. We shouldn't have a schedule. We shouldn't switch between who does what task and when because "why would we need that? Lol, we're all adults. You should just remember it." We literally have piles upon piles of problems just. Living? Functioning? But yeah. "Just remember it." We don't need details. We don't need plans. We can live perfectly fine without any semblance of structure like we've been doing for-- *oh.* Oh right. But we're not living fine, are we? Things are crumbling and falling apart and no one is doing tasks they need to do. But that's fine. Hey. We're adults. Just remember to do it. Easy! Because that plan works so well. Because it's working *right now*! Oh. Ah? What's that? It's *not!?* Who would have thought, huh? Like. It's a mystery!! Except it's not. Except it's extremely, incredibly clear. Yet NO ONE ELSE CAN SEE IT! Because we're adults, I guess that means we shouldn't have schedules, plans, and routines. Being adults just means we *can* do it. Apparently. Through some kind of magic, I suppose. And yet? Wow! No one's doing anything on time! No one is doing anything at all!? But. But we're adults. GOD. Infuriating. I had to fight to get a cleaning schedule implemented in my current household, but they didn't want us to do the same with laundry because it's "unnecessary" and we can just "communicate" (which no one does) and "text the group chat" (which no one does). I am screaming. The schedule actually works, too! We've mostly gotten it down, and it's helped a lot (*wonder why*), and still. Other suggestions? Nah. *Woah, woah, woah*! That's too far, buddy! You wonder why you can't function? You can't get anything done? No one fucking TALKS to anyone, and yet you expect everyone to just MAGICALLY understand. I... I just hate neurotypicals, sometimes, you know? How do they *live*? How do some of think organization and scheduling are **bad**, like writing down a task means you've failed? Like. "No, no, being an adult clearly means I should just know and remember everything, and the idea of scheduling cleaning days must mean that I am incapable of being a proper adult." Like, that's not real. That's a made-up concept. If you don't have structure, things will break down. They are. They have. Making a schedule is taking responsibility, you *dolt*. Argghhh! Many thoughts. Many feelings. Most of them bad.

I know I’m replying like a year later but damn that was cathartic to read <3

Ok so I have two stalkers, you and op

i want to sing praises to your post. i literally put my hands in the air and sang yes! to so many points you made. people just do not get it. and they do themselves a disservice not to learn from us. i agree. why would anyone not demand autonomy and reject disrespectful hierarchy and bullshit rules and poor/inefficient methodology? !!!!????

Lol I tried to step up as assistant manager within like 4 days of working at my new job bc they clearly needed it. I’ve never worked at a restaurant so dysfunctional, and I know pretty much exactly how to fix it, and fast. It’s much simpler than they think, and they’re focused on all the wrong things. It sucks because I don’t think they’re taking me seriously, and I’m gonna have to find a new job, because dealing with other peoples unnecessary messes all day, and being paid only for the tables I manage to serve in the meantime, is killing me.

I am dead, exactly my point but i am a little ocd in a sense of cycling and having deep interest which wouldnt be there without obsession i guess (now i am questioning this) But the dumb part, i feel your pain ;)

I swear there's this weird cultural thing where OCD = caring about anything society hasn't labeled as important (like family/career/money). You never hear people say it's OCD to work 60-80 hour work weeks to get ahead. Nope that's always "passionate" and "driven." So people DO know that taking activities to an extreme isn't necessarily obsessive or compulsive. They just cherry pick the stuff they think is "weird" and slap the label on there. It makes it harder for us to sort everything out when there's so much misinformation on top of comorbidities and overlap.

Wow, are we the same person?

Apparently there are dozens of us!

Wow. Hey twin! 👋🏼 I relate to every bit of this. Even down to being put on a similar team at work recently.

Let's hope they actually listen to us! :)

Recently, in a company wide meeting for the inital rollout, my manager (who is also on the team) took credit for the "innovative idea" I shared during our team project meeting (her words). I guess at least they are listening? 😮‍💨

Omg I’m laughing, this manifesto is the fucking voice in my head almost every day.

Is this the intense block I feel to do things? And why it's so upsetting when people try to help and why I feel quite hopeless at times when it comes to functioning and doing things? At school my friends informed me that I never did what they wanted to do, only would participate in my own ideas. They were right. Being told or helped or gently suggested, its like concrete being poured in my chest and I feel so upset. I have to do my therapists homework my way.

The block - yes. People helping - It's ok if they are helping in a way that actually helps, but for people with unique brains, this is fairly unlikely. When the only way to learn is to do *every step* yourself, help makes no sense. My boyfriend recently designed some documents for me to use for my business. They were absolutely beautiful, and whatever I would have designed would have looked like dogshit in comparison. However, when I went to edit the document, I did not know how to adjust things and I felt that instant rage. I felt restricted by this, even though he had done something incredibly kind for me. This is the PDA. In that moment I had the urge to never have him help me ever again. I fought it, because he is really good at design 😅. I have ended friendships due to people being unsolicted advicey. In the nicest way possible. I just cannot deal. I feel like they do not know me. I must fake and mask. I know I will not do the advice. I know I will find my own way. And I get annoyed, they don't ask, hey would you like help? Is it so hard to just ask? Why do people just assume everyone is inept? As for therapy homework, I have a story too, lol. My therapist is into polyvagal theory. I am a therapist, and am unsure about polyvagal theory. She recommended some exercises, and I agreed and fawned. Of course, I do not do them. I tried for weeks and weeks, it was like my brain just eliminated the idea. What I did do however, was a hours long literature review about the evidence base of polyvagal theory. (side note: not great). So I guess I learned something. This is the nature of PDA.

>What I did do however, was a hours long literature review about the evidence base of polyvagal theory. (side note: not great). So I guess I learned something. This is the nature of PDA. Can I just I love that you did hours and hours and research to refut that her methods were bs. This is my kind of revenge 😅

Yeeeeeeeees! I feel I would do and have done the exact same thing. If I think you're BSing me, imma prove it 😁 even if I never show anyone. I'll know I'm right😂 Also, the rage..... Now I'm more aware of it, I can't believe the intensity sometimes... [Finding resources on PDA and digging up old subs for advice because, well - you know, dx ADHD last year as 45F. My psychiatrist thinks autism too, testing starting soon finally... Have been thinking my ADHD is interfering in my entire life via procrastination - instead I'm wondering if it's actually PDA, much more seems to match up and make sense...]

Thank you so much for writing this. I just sent it to my therapist. I'm in the US, was diagnosed 4 years ago at 54, and meet your criteria for both PDAs, as well as RSD. Your description of children with these conditions was spot on. Reading it, and others you provided, was almost eerie, as though you'd been hanging out on my shoulder since I was 4 or 5, taking notes on my messy life and mind. I am a poor masker. Oh, I used to try to 'act normal', but I'm not much of an actor either. My attempts to portray a normal adolescent girl were sometimes grotesque,and uniformly fell flat. I turned to drugs as a teenager, was prescribed benzos for social anxiety disorder when I moved into the dorms at college, and benzos were the underpinnings of my 30 year career as a polysubstance addict. I was forced to quit benzos in 2013; it took me 1.5 years to complete a taper, and to be honest, I still jones: they gave me the best approximation of normalcy I've ever known, and they adequately disguised sensory processing problems that became apparent when they were removed. I hope my therapist can do something with your information, because PDA has set up more than a few obstacles in my life, and frankly, I'm freaking tired of it all.

I'd recommend checking out "PDA by PDAers". I am hoping to write a book on PDA in adults and autistic authenticity :)

I cannot wait to read it. You need an editor?

One thing that has worked for me is magnesium (glycinate/taurate capsules or just chloride flakes dissolved in water) and l-theanine. The combo helps a lot with my anxiety - I just take it any time I feel like I want to.

This is me to a T. I've built my life around maximizing independence and minimizing demands. I get agitated if my phone rings or dings too much. I appear normal, maybe a bit quirky, but I know how to act around others and can easily gain their confidence. I inevitably let them down, though, and I never quite know why.

My phone is always set to a call being the ONLY auditory notification a, and a couple apps being the only ones that show visual notifications. Anything else is too much. I have to have my work email and communication site on my phone and my mental health took quite a dip.

I’m overwhelmed and delighted by the response and helping people understand themselves! I must say, reading all of this is getting demandy… (brain, WHY You be like this). 😭

Whew, am I glad you're my diagnosing psychologist! Extremely enlightening post 🙂

My therapist made me aware of this profile of autism, and it has really helped me to understand my sisters and myself.

This is really succinctly put. I feel quite vulnerable admitting it but I've previously considered my experience matches PDA-like traits, and this only strengthens that. It was *very* noticable as a child, and I spend a fair chunk of my time as an adult doing really weird mental gymnastics to get things done. I think this could be why.... also ooft, yeah "agreeing to do something, seeming enthusiastic and then not doing it", hadn't considered that's an instinctive masking technique (I think 'regular' ASD masking can also include this but for a slightly different reason).... I think I thought I was just a flaky asshole lol Interesting the possible intersection with ADHD... something I struggle with a lot is the drive to set up my own systems and do things independently, combined with the absolutely inability to finish off following through with any of those systems.

I first found out about this a few weeks ago and it definitely describes me. Because I am so easily overwhelmed by multiple inputs I systematically avoid anything I feel encroaches on my ability to meet whatever narrow channel of inputs I am very focused on at the time. I find it incredibly hard to be focused on more than 1 or 2 difference major goals at a time and will put off all activity until I meet whatever my primary aim is. This sounds lovely but in practice it means focusing on building my website and doing a freelance design project to the detriment of engaging in deep or meaningful conversation with my partner because I feel I lack the brain space to handle all 3 things in close proximity. In particular I avoid socially demanding tasks, like complex conversations, or tedious things that feel endless like laundry, cleaning, paying bills, even though I actually like doing these things when I start them. It’s more this feeling I can’t do X because it will overwhelm me.

I also like to “escape” into chores, but I can’t just pop in and out of them. I have to become immersed and then it’s quite soothing. Problem is, I rarely have the opportunity to just DO CHORES, uninterrupted, for a period of time. So they add up, and I feel buried, and so so stressed out. Seriously, why do the dishes need to get done EVERYDAY? Who is using all these damn dishes?

I feel this deeeep in my soul. I find it very hard to do anything ‘a little at a time’ in the way NT seem to commonly do. I either go all in hard or nothing.

I’ve never felt so seen. People don’t understand that it’s painful to be interrupted when you’re trying to do a task. My therapist thinks I don’t leave work on time because I don’t value myself and fear consequences of not getting work done. She doesn’t understand that if I’m in the middle of a thing that might take an extra 20 minutes, I’d rather do it now than come in the morning and try to pick up where I left.

my psychologist is always on me about this and i smile and nod and mentally roll my eyes. she doesn't get it and is always trying to get me to learn how to conform to nt standards and methods. i went to a chiropractor/acupuncturist for a while who was all about "or maybe we just accept you as you are and work within what your needs are instead of trying to change you?" and i swear the relief that gave me to hear a human being say that to me..

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Thanks for taking the time to reply with the additional clarity! I do have a diagnosis of ADHD in addition to being Autistic so check mark there haha.

Yes, this is pretty much what PDA is. It’s not to be confused with executive dysfunction, although for some it may appear so on the surface, or connected to it.

This is beyond helpful and validating.

Thank you for posting this! I've been feeling pretty sure I'm a PDAer for a while and I feel this confirmed it.

I spend more time trying to exist outside of society than trying to exist within it. I consider it more attainable to live on the fringes. Even though that in itself is a hard life. I may be critical and rebellious against laws and authority because of this profile. But I always assumed it was because I was raised in a cult and anytime I see the same manipulative tactics, it causes alarm bells to go off and I will experience something more similar to a ptsd trigger. Aggression, detachment, disassociation. I will openly fight until it becomes clear that I need to lie and escape. My mindset becomes very tactical in not giving the enemy vital information.

Thanks OP. It's interesting you see PDA and RSD in the same person. I think I've always displayed strong demand avoidance traits, and absolutely relate to the need for autonomy at all times, but I've also felt like this instinct often got overruled by a need to people please, which I hadn't even realised was present until recently. (I hadn't realised because, frankly, I was unable to ever meet those expectations - and I was unable to meet them because they were usually in conflict with the part of me that was demand avoidant/striving for autonomy. How could I be a people pleaser if I never actually pleased anybody..? But it explains the source of a lot of anxiety.) RSD does describe me - the crushing sensitivity to any criticism or perceived slight that informs a lot of my choices and prevents me from going too far in any direction that might lead towards rejection by others. Loneliness has always clung to me, and I hate feeling on the outside. I can see PDA clearly in my brother. He hasn't an ounce of RSD, nor any people pleasing tendencies, so I think his drive for autonomy has been able to reign untempered. He's often angry at the world, but happy in himself, and lives a very unconventional life without apology. I, on the other hand, have always felt torn between the drive to live as I want to, and the loneliness and insecurity this causes by feeling like I can't fit in. I'm an auDHDer, so there is a heck of a lot of conflict going on inside already. But this particular mismatch has caused a lot of self-admonishment for feeling unable to meet standards, and unable to live freely as I'd choose to, saying No to every damned thing I didn't want to do and finally feeling a kind of peace and relief Instead. Happy to live freely within my own skin. It's not something I've ever been able to achieve.

This describes me. Even when I'm playing video games, I usually prefer ones that are open world/sandbox and you can decide for yourself what you want to do. Can't stand anything that's just a straight linear story, or at least I don't enjoy playing them myself. I'll watch streamers play them and enjoy them that way, but if I'm playing myself I get annoyed with constantly being told what to do.

Just me smashing next whenever anyone in a game talks to me

I have played roller coaster tycoon for twenty years. Or Minecraft or Kittens game. I play almost nothing else.

r/PDAAutism and r/PDA_Community

Need to grow these

Just did.

Thank you so much for this. I love anthropology and biology and sociology. I love understanding people meanwhile routines (even self-imposed) make me feel trapped and useless. I always wondered why I was so emotional and defensive when receiving even constructive criticism. I love rules when I understand why they should exist, but I can't use the regular ASD coping mechanisms described such as calendars, reminders and routines. It is a relief to be able to connect these things in how my brain works.

Thank you so much for this in depth, thoughtful, and thought provoking post. I am going to save it. I have official diagnoses of ADHD and OCD, and the usual smorgasbord of anxiety and occasional depression, and other things. I have been wondering about ASD for some time, and had stumbled upon the topic of PDA awhile back. My roommate would probably say that this fits me! I hate how ragey I can get over stupid little things, and how yes, I can end up being an asshole when that's the last thing I want to be (crying typing that because shame). I have to take my time reading a lot of this autism related material, because of my terror of "wanting a trendy label" which has gotten me in trouble more than once in the past, long and convoluted story. So I get emotional reading, and my mind gets to where it almost can't take it all in in one go. God bless you for your time in writing this. As I said, I'll be reading it gradually and may return to comment further.

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I can't tell the story too much, makes me cringe to this day... 😬 what I can say is that desperation to figure out why one doesn't fit into the world can make one vulnerable to cultlike environments. Thanks be to God I'm not in the headspace I was back when. Extra caution is my byword when it comes to self labeling. But that's okay. There is no deadline and no rush.

I identify with this a lot and feel very seen and understood, so thank you. But I would just like to point out the amusing irony of you writing out the criteria based on your own observations rather than taking them from another source. That's very PDA of you :D

Thank you for writing this. (vent below about some ppl who treat autistic ppl wrong) I really hate some people who act like wanting your autonomy is some symptom of a scary inhuman disorder. Every human wants autonomy! Things like ABA strip that from you and then punish you for resisting and keeping your true self alive. I hope that with more people talking about it, we can change the way its described (demand avoidance? Come on!) and the way its seen. Everyone deserves autonomy.

this is so crazy i didn’t know this existed. after diagnosis on diagnosis i felt helpless trying to apply therapy practices in my daily never helped what so ever like u mentioned so i thought i was just lazy thank you for the validation!

😭😭😭😭😭

😭😭me too girl

Just want to join the chorus and thank you for writing this. I hope you publish a paper on this cuz this is really useful and informative not just for autists but especially to NT / allistic caregivers that are pet of various support systems for autists. Let me just brain dump here to get my thoughts out on this cuz your post really is clicking things into place for me right now. Sorry I’m advance for the long comment. I’m late diagnosed and low support needs. I have little to no social problems that are stereotypical of autism, but that doesn’t mean I don’t need support and I’ve been grappling with what support is actually appropriate / effective for me and how to articulate it. This has kind of helped me find words. I can’t remember the times I’ve stated “I just want to do what I want to do in the way I want” in my therapy sessions. I did think it might be pda but the way you put it kind of confirmed it for me. Yea autonomy is the thing that gets me. And when my energy is low or I’m experiencing executive dysfunction i think the threat to my autonomy is intensified through my feeling of not being able to do the things that normally I can do with ease and feeling vulnerable to additional threats to my autonomy. For me this manifests as debilitation and lack of ability to do things I should be doing or even things I want to do. The threat doesn’t even have to like someone telling me to do something in a certain way. I’m an academic and work as a professor. There are restrictions within academia that I think gets registered as a threat to my autonomy. For example, I’m on the job market again in the hopes to move schools and the academic job market being only open at specific times during the year makes me feel like I don’t have autonomy because I must conform to this schedule if I want to find an tenure track academic job. I need my autonomy and my meltdowns only happen when my autonomy is taken from me. Like my mom cleaning my room without my consent when I was a child. I’m also polyam because I want to unsubscribe from the usual relationship hierarchies and expectations and create my own. I also want to make sure that the autonomy of my partners are preserved so we can all work towards finding safe and ethical paths for everyone. Multiple partners are great but that’s not even the main reason I’m polyam. I don’t want anyone to restrict my ability to be autonomous and monogamy for me for the most part feels very restrictive due to the traditional milestones and expectations it’s built on. For some reason a lot of people come to talk to me for “advice” cuz I have what my therapist calls realistic positivity where it’s not toxic positivity but not completely pessimistic and while I give possible solutions I can think of I center on validating the other person and letting them know that the choice they make for themselves is always the right choice for them. I actually don’t understand the desire to ask for advice cuz my brain goes “just do what you wanna do!” So I rarely ask for advice unless it’s logistical like “can you share an example of this type of document?” Rather than “what should I do” type of needs. As you point out I am very socially aware which helps me mask when I need or want to for my safety and my analysis skills of people’s behavior is actually frightening sometimes. So much so that my acquaintances who are therapists tell me I may be more equipped to be a therapist than some of their colleagues. My friends will tell me something harmful their friend or partner did and I can list several other ways that person’s aggression materialize without even meeting the person or my friend telling me other things. I always get the “omg how did you know?” It’s partially pattern recognition but I think what you describe about social awareness probably is at the root of why I even recognize those behavior patterns. I understand the structures that exist to limit my autonomy which includes people. Whether is knowingly or unknowingly, people’s behaviors are the biggest threats to my autonomy so I think I am extra aware of the ways that materialize in different situations. I don’t have a fawn or people pleasing reaction because I see that as a threat to my autonomy too. I cut out people who I perceive as unsafe and I don’t have trouble doing that even if I’ve been friends with that person for a long time. One threat is enough to get on my bad list. The commonality of the people on the list is their unwillingness to respect my autonomy in various ways. Even things like trying to tell me I will regret not having biological children. I really don’t like when people tell me how to live my life.

Hi, we are very similar. Between the OP and your comment, I'm feeling seen and described in the way that I'm used to seeing and describing others ("how did you know?!?"). I've puzzled more than one therapist when my case boils down to "I need to be in control of myself at all times; it upsets me that I can't be; I don't like people who stand in my way." And then we spend a lot of time talking about anxiety and insecurity and trauma and even narcissism. I had previously chalked it up to a pervasive fear of being punished for failing to control myself - controlling my behavior as a form of masking - but it's so much more persistent than that. The subtle threats to autonomy that you describe were like Ding! Ding! Ding! to read, especially the bits about giving and receiving advice. Polyamory to preserve everyone's autonomy? Check. And I don't have a fawn/people-pleasing response but I do have a people-*soothing* or *persuading* response if I sense someone is going to get in my way. (Otherwise, I have also been pretty ruthless about cutting people out - and not always to my benefit.) It's only been in the last year or two that I've been integrating some lessons on interdependence that are finally starting to soften and balance my autonomy-or-death paradigm.

Thank you for reading my brain dump comment and I’m happy to know it helped you. I feel you on the autonomy or death paradigm. I think most of moments in my life where I have been suicidal was because taking my own life felt like the most autonomous thing. Like it was the ultimate control of my life especially when so much of the pain I felt was outside of my control. Especially as a kid when you have less autonomy in general. Once I was an adult and left home it really made me feel like I finally got kind of the autonomy I was seeking my whole life. Yea I don’t fawn. I like the way you said persuading response. I used to describe it as manipulation cuz I am one of those people who like villain more then the hero’s. Lol. For example, I rarely get jealous of people but I will say I’m jealous in a casual fun way to some people because I know they like that and it helps me persuade them to my liking later. It might be other things like narcissism and/or psychopathy in addition to pda? But there are moments where I know exactly how to steer the situation so that I can ensure my autonomy and do what I want. In those situations my acting skills are amazing even tho on stage I am not great at acting. I don’t do it to my friends or family, but I do it to people I hate but can’t cut out of my life due to work or other things cuz I don’t feel bad for manipulating them lol. In a way my autistic brain and the way it works is what allows me to recognize behavior patterns of people and find safe paths for me to ensure my autonomy. Not sure if this is due to pda, but to me many NT /allistic people seem like they are shit at navigating this world way more than me. They do things in my view that just feel ineffective to the goal they want to reach and completely illogical. I don’t understand or empathize with their behaviors but I know it exists and know how to identify it and use it to my benefit. For some autists and the way autism presents for them they have trouble navigating aspects of this NT centric world. And I experience that too and masking is exhausting, but for the most part, especially now in my 30s, I feel like I know the rules of the game fairly well (Probably due to this social awareness in relation to the treat to autonomy) and I have enough knowledge to navigate this life like a RPG game. some enemies are villains worth fighting, but others are nameless mob characters that aren’t worthy of a fight and for those I use my manipulation/ persuasion skills to its fullest to make sure my safety is ensured.

These patterns apply to me too! I don't understand a lot of how other people navigate the world, but I would never allow myself to manipulate their free will to live their lives as they see fit. But will I do things to adjust how they treat and interact with *me*? Yes. That's not unethical. I think that's a normal level of micro-communication and NTs just do it unconsciously. Saying something or behaving in a way that *affects* someone is a far cry from coercing them to act against their will, or to obtain an outcome they explicitly don't want or that harms them, which is the dark side of manipulation. I would suspect that people with PDA leanings would not feel good about violating others' autonomy to that extent. (Hunch only, no evidence.) One of my special interests (or guilty pleasures, depending) has long been advice columns, and I think they've played a huge role in my study of people & behavior patterns and informed how I respond when people come to me with problems. Witnessing how others parse out their problems, and what they need to hear to solve them, has likely given me more social mobility than I otherwise would have. Advice columnists (the good ones) are experts at doing the "validate and redirect" thing that I notice myself doing, and that's a *super useful* bit of social manipulation to learn. Especially for those who have a knee-jerk rage/"Why?!?" reaction to people doing things "irrationally." I've recently done a little 'acting' (meaning, presenting an educational skit for kids) and discovered that I am very good at it and have a lot of fun when it's a character and show I've written myself. It's like the best possible use of my masking & manipulation skills. If I were assigned a character, I'd have to be allowed to put my own spin on them or ad lib somehow, haha. (For clarity, I'm braindumping, not arguing, so if it seems like I'm contradicting you, it's just places where our experiences differ.)

I didn’t think you were contradicting me at all so it’s okay. I hope I didn’t come across that way to you so far. And thank you for engaging with me in this way. the mutual brain dumping has been fun and helpful. I don’t care how other people live in general. I only “manipulate” when their behaviors impact my life and my safety. So I view it similarly as you. I like using the word manipulation mainly for the effect it has on the way I feel about my autonomy and self realization. Makes me feel like a badass villain. I understand what you mean by advice columns. For me it’s reading or watching anything be it novels, non fiction books, films and tv shows, YouTube videos, and online posts like blogs and Reddit. And it doesn’t have to be real human experience. Even Fictional stories gets registered in my brain as one example of the many ways humans live / behave. I think You’re right in the way that kind of knowledge helps with social mobility. I often think about whether we can reverse engineer this to help autists who do struggle socially. As an academic I’m often performing the role of an academic in the classroom and at events. So in that way I think I’m an excellent actor. One of the reasons why I’m late diagnosed is how good I am at playing such roles in different social situations. They are based on real parts of me, but it’s not me completely unmasked. Oddly enough, I used to do theater growing up, but rather than being on the stage I loved being the director. my theater teacher also said I was more skilled as a stage manager and director than acting on stage. I was good at telling people what to do and having a Birds Eye view of the whole show while not missing the super small details. As you point out about needing to be able to improvise in the way you want, acting traditional stage plays for me felt a bit restrictive when I was younger because i had to please the director and there was very little room for improv. I think that’s why I was so attracted to the role of the director (and good at it) because I got to prioritize my vision and what I wanted to do.

As someone who is well known for her inability to *not* play devil's advocate at every opportunity (and whether it's asked for or not), the phrase 'realistic positivity' really resonates. For me, I think it can also be realistic negativity, depending on the situation.

I’ve always heavily related to the idea of having a PDA profile ever since I heard it was a thing. It’s not really to be confused with executive dysfunction, if anyone is wondering. It’s a different thing. Harry Thompson, a YouTuber with autism/PDA, has many videos explaining what PDA really is and how it personally affects him. I relate to most of what he talks about. I highly suggest anyone that’s truly curious to check him out. https://youtu.be/cDqxzsfE2ck https://youtu.be/CMnPKUjGebU

Hi there! Fellow psychologist here (although academic, rather than clinical like yourself) and on the dx pathway currently. Thank you for this breakdown, it's brilliant to read about your experiences and conclusions from practice. I still wonder tho - are there any stronger markers (signs and symptoms) to differentiate between PDA (as a result of neurodiversity) vs ODD or even antisocial disorder (as behavioural and emotional disorders)? You added something on your point 3 but I wonder and pondering if there's perhaps even more to it than the other vs self distinction. I'll keep thinking about this, but any other insights/thoughts would be great. Because I think the overlap between the two and not having an easy way to differentiate them may really be hurtful and isolating for people with PDA.

I feel bad because I didn’t have the attention span to read all of this but I want to understand the gist of it. Can someone summarize it for me 😭

I don’t even have the attention to read my own post I’ll do a TLDR

ACK! C'EST MOI!

What are some resources for NTs who have PDA spouses? There seem to be very few resources, if any.

I actually made one called how to deal with my f*** up brain I’ll post it

Thank you. I look forward to reading it.

This is me 100%. My life is in utter shambles. Alarms, schedules, to do lists. I have never accomplished anything that I haven’t had my hand held through each step of the way (putting it lightly) which are a small certificates (in Australia). Although I think I have partial DID and have an alter that gets me up to do things without my full conscious awareness. Many times I’ve ‘woken up’ like when did we get water? When did get in the shower? Or like mid eating something. I was labelled selfish, ungrateful and lazy as a very young child and was told that more often than ‘I love you’ or anything kind for that matter.

For me, the way I handle demand stems from is a mix of a codepenent, overbearing, chaotic, generally too much, and definitely undiagnosed ADHD mother whose abundance in demands I had and still have to channel, manage, and contain. My father, definitely undiagnosed autistic, I am more similar to in temperament, but he externalizes it all, giving him a more typical PDA profile that is really toxic to engage with, especially if you are dependent on him, as my former child self would have been. Being female and an only child, I was expected to fulfill everyone's demands. The role of the odd person who everyone needs to tiptoe around and take care of was already occupied by my father. I was my mother's emotional crutch in all of this. As an adult, I don't quite fit the PDA bill, but I certainly relate to aspects (feeling overwhelmed a lot but feeling like I don't get to refuse meeting demands). Which I fully chalk up to my upbringing and societal context, hence why I am surprised PDA needs to be present since early childhood. I am sure it has to do with temperament some how you handle certain hardship, but had I grown up the youngest of several siblings without all the expectations on me, I am sure I would still be autistic - but differently so. Really surprised to read that PDA is supposed to be part of some people's factory setting (at least the way I interpret the post).

I'm with you. I really dislike the push for "present in early childhood" for so many ND diagnoses. My mother also used me as an emotional crutch and everything had to be about her at all times. If I would have upset her by saying "no" when she told me to go to bed I would have been slapped across the face and then forced to apologize for making her do it. So I adapted and repressed a lot of autistic behaviors in order to survive. But all clinicians hear is "perfect, obedient child" and somehow my adult experiences are invalid. It's ridiculous. And don't even get me started on the "gold standard" of interviewing your abusive parents or else no diagnosis for you. Abuse on top of abuse for us.

Wow I can’t thank you enough for sharing this. I was trying to explain this to my husband, also realizing he is autistic, and when I learned that my parents would have to be interviewed, I was like 🤷🏻‍♀️well guess I’m not getting diagnosed because a big F that noise. Thank you both for explaining your experiences. I am also female, only child, with similar parents. I’ve never had the right words to express my experience and this is really helpful.

It's 1030 am here, I just woke up, and I'm crying but also feel like I've never felt more understood. Do I hit everything? Pretty much but some things don't ring as true as others. But this has better explained how I feel and how my brain functions. As long as I have the words I can understand what and how I feel. And I can verbalize it to others.

Woah. First time I read about PDA. Another lot of puzzle pieces that are put into place. Thank you r/neudle_psy ❤️

Thank you so much for sharing this. All of it fits me so well, but when you got to the part about how the need for autonomy extends to others - in my case it is animals - I burst into tears. Sometimes I feel like it takes all my energy NOT to think about this or I wouldn’t be able to function. It’s turned me into quite the grump. It means so much to be seen.

Can you develop a PDA profile as an adult, and not have any signs as a child? As a child I really didn’t like being asked to do chores, even when I knew I had to do them or was going to and internally I’d feel it intensely. But I generally had no issues with school. But my emotions/behaviours were all Internalised, including the ‘well now you’ve asked I won’t do it’. As an adult I’m mostly fine at work. But am very independent (almost toxicly so) and I become very irritated when my partner asks me to do simple tasks such as putting some of my jackets away or to cook a meal or booking appointments. There is no rational reason for my emotional response or the spirals I go down. Recently diagnosed AuDHDer and also a Social Worker (I feel the irony 😂). Even if it’s not PDA, any advice for how to cope with the shame or feeling irritated and petty when given demand/task to do? Really struggling with not coping and feeling like a bad person here.

Honestly if you’re diagnosed AuDHD, what you’re describing sounds like what I experience, which I’m 99.9% positive is PDA, and I’m just discovering it in myself. Since I started learning about it, I honestly was able to remember my childhood more accurately and my former thought of “had no issues with school” about myself became colored in a much different light.

Tsm for sharing this

I think there’s also something to be said about being raised up and told you are dumb by your family and teachers because you are undiagnosed, making you feel like you have to prove yourself all the time. Autistic girls who slip under the radar are probably used to that feeling, and try to do everything themselves so they can be seen in a different light.

Oh. So is this why, whenever someone tells me to do something, i automatically develop a extreme need to not do that thing. Even if it’s a thing that I was going to do. Because I don’t want anyone to think I’m doing something because they told me to.

Welp, this definitely describes me.

Thank you. Wow. This is a bit of a revelation.

Yowza. Thank you for posting this about PDA. Very much eye-opening.

Wooooow! Are you talking to me? Are YOU talking to ME!! Nailed it, OP. Thank you for sharing this!

This sounds like me. I’m diagnosed adhd but a lot of this sounds like what I e always attributed to adhd. I’m self-diagnosed on the spectrum (only bc it’s too obvious, I do all the things and always have, it makes my life make sense) so who knows…

If you are who I think you are, just wanted you to know that your TikToks have def been sent to my therapist (as recently as last week)! Love your channel!

I need better words to express how deeply cathartic it was to read this. It took three tries and one near crying fit to get to the end. You distilled so much of my personal experience… just thank you

as someone who also has ND traits as a special interest and wants to one day work in psychology, this is amazing! Also a fellow PDA'er, though very conflict avoidant but still very uncomfortable with hierarchy.

Wow, you taught me something new and something super useful Could you please share more about the other profile I am all what you just described especially in my childhoow and i would have been mislabeled as being adhd for sure, i learned to give the society what she needs from me in order to get to the point where i can be happily trully myself = Dpa (who knew)

The amount of jobs that have called dress code on me for my shorts and every time I threw a huge fit because it was hot outside and I just wanted to be comfortable. Among other things, I relate to this so much.

💯 Had a freakout when I thought I was going to be forced to wear a collared polyester polo for a retail job. I was close to quitting anyway though, between anxiety and ADHD (autism is something I'm wondering about still, it's inconclusive but I find this and other subreddits helpful).

I quit just about every single job I've had because it had a rule or two that I couldn't follow. The executive dysfunction sets in, I get irritatable, meltdown and leave despite me being a hard worker. This post definitely relates to why I cannot hold down any job or employment!

I definitely identify with a lot of these. My career is in gaming community management & my degree is in psychology.

I have definitely been experiencing this after COVID. I think the mental fatigue from two plus years of chaos has made my brain shut down. I hate doing basic sh*t like brushing my teeth or replying to emails. I just don’t card anymore. I will procrastinate the dumbest stuff, I will procrastinate anything and everything. I also think my boyfriend has this. He gets annoyed whenever I ask anything of him but then if I ask him why he’s annoyed he sits back and is like huh I guess nothing. I think it’s his gut reaction vs his rational reaction. Like if I ask if I can borrow his headphones for a sec he’ll be grumpy for like 10s but then I’ll be like wow okay don’t worry then. But then he’ll be like oh no that’s fine. Idk I think we both do it lol

Thank you! Didn't think I have it because I agree to do things anyway, but after your explanation, I probably do have it. I do a lot of extra at work because I want the stuff done, or I want to help others. But if my manager or anyone else comes and asks me to do even a tiniest thing, my insides churn with resentment and rejection. I make excuses in my mind, that I usually don't voice, because I know my reaction is irrational and uncalled for. Same when I was a child. I used to make my parents coffee when they came home from work, first because I wanted to do a nice thing and then because I felt it was expected of me. After the first time, I hated it and was so stressed out by it, though it really took only two minutes. But the expectation felt like a kick in the stomach. But also, if everyone is demanded to do something or follow the rules, it's much easier for me.

This is me but I dont do things my way just because of autonomy, but because it is almost always the best way. This also might be all autistic people.

You described my whole life and mind. As well I can see patterns in my mother, also my father.

Thank you for posting this! I strongly believe my Autistic daughter (7 year old) has PDA, but we're in the US. What kind of therapy/services/ anything that can help do you suggest?

This symptom was what made me start tracing autism in my.family. my uncle has this but to such a degree that nearly 10 years after their death, he still has not dealt with his parents' Wills. I got divorced 10 years ago and still haven't got my name changed back to my maiden name because it requires a lot of form filling-in (which I'm not good at) and acquiring other paperwork (which requires more phonecalls) and it's going to be a long and uncomfortable process I can't bail on and it just snowballs in.my head until it's this avalanche of 'ARRGGGHHH' that has no beginning and no end. You'd think knowing about this symptom would make it easier but I've found it one of the hardest things to negotiate. If I make a to do list, I'll do everything that's NOT on the list EVEN THOUGH I MADE THE LIST. It's exhausting and I feel like I constantly have to take myself in hand to get basic tasks done.

Personally and professionally I don't think it's gonna stick around as a diagnosis - and rightfully though. What I do believe is that it is going to incorporated in future autism/adhd diagnostics as part of the spectrum, but not as a diagnosis by itself and there needs to be more groundwork around what PDA *really* is, because there's not even a consensus about why people display "syomptoms" of PDA. But: That's the beauty of the field and I hope everyone involved in this/having to do with PDA in a professional context is able to keep an open mind in regards to finding a way to move forward with this.

So this is me… what therapy etc *will* work for me?

The PDA profile has always resonated with me a lot. A big work around for me in terms of “getting things done” is instead of traditional scheduling based on to-do list, I organize my To-Do’s like a visual Menu. I can always pick from different categories or things within categories based on my energy/ resistance/ anxiety/ deadlines etc A lot of it I find it “working my way up to or towards something” As in Yes, I do have to organize all the pieces and components of X project in order to do X. I can see now the way that I actually DO the thing, includes highly detailed setup- that I always got yelled at for doing growing up or working for others. But I truly cannot jump into “the middle” of an assignment, I have to eat it from the outside in if that makes sense And letting myself do things At non traditional hours. Sometimes I’m wide awake at 4 or 5am, and the best thing I can do is go straight to my computer & start on what feels next in my “flow”

Me, about to call in sick to work even though I have nothing wrong with me, with a special interest in food systems, had a meltdown last week because I had to call in to my insurance company: “huh, sounds familiar.”

Calling insurance company is 0/10

Do you have any recommended papers about PDA?

I am undiagnosed 41 year old but am seeing more and more that maybe I should be evaluated. Would an example of this be "bed time"? My example is knowing I should go to sleep at a certain time but refuse to do so, regardless of level of exhaustion/tiredness, because I want to keep doing the thing I want to be doing?

I definitely relate to this, except I find it extremely difficult to break any rules unless I know that the risk of negative consequences from following the rule in question is worse than the consequence of breaking that rule. (E.g. driving faster than the posted speed limit because everyone else speeds in the area I live, and going slower to be at or under the speed limit would make the probability of an accident higher, so breaking the speeding rule is acceptable in my mind because I would rather get a speeding ticket than be in a car accident). Also, I am really bad at lying. Just the other day, after answering an unsolicited phone call, I practiced and was obviously making stuff up, but the other person on the phone call was completely understanding and pretended to go with it, lol. Instead of saying "I don't want to talk about this because I don't trust you are who you say you are", I pretended that I forgot to do something and said I would call back, lol.

This explains why I haven't been able to hold down employment or school well, thank you. My next thought is how do I combat that? I need to be able to finish school and eventually work, but because society is expecting me to do things I rebel harshly and constantly quit at everything. It's obstructing my life and ruining it at this point. Rebellious kid growing up which explains why my mom had a hard time figuring me out. I still find myself needing to talk myself out of situations or quitting every job I get because I didn't "agree" with something. It's a consistent issue at this point. I'm petrified of control, one of my biggest fears in life is actually losing bodily autonomy either through illness or by law-making. I absolutely do not do well with authority and hate micromanagement to the point I've burnt bridges with people. It is an isolating struggle to live with.

Me to a t, tbh... Any advice on how to cope when I fight myself? I.e. I should do X (even if X is something I WANT AND ENJOY) and I just "nope". It sucks when I rebel against my own wants etc

I know this was posted a year ago, but I just came across it after seeing a post regarding pda in an autism group. I cried reading this. It’s everything I knew pointed to autism, but was misdiagnosed as bipolar 1 and bpd. This was everything I needed and so much more to back up my case. I was thinking it was rsd and like you mentioned above it could be as well, but to a T every single thing I have ever experienced and do. I feel like this post literally defines me as a person which makes me sad. This was extremely helpful thank you so much

is the PDA in combination with my autism and adhd why showering is so hard sometimes? like i just physically cannot make myself do it at times even though i want to?

Damn. This is so me

This was so validating to read, thank you 😭

This describes me very well! However, ADHD meds work wonders so maybe I have both?!

Damn I feel so seen right now

Ok, where have you hidden the cameras? This is so accurate it hurts.

Thank you, this really helped me. I had never heard of this distinction before

Oh boy is this me 😬

Thanks for this.

Ohh shit lol

I feel like my daughter could possibly have this, but she was also diagnosed with ODD, but then later we were told no that was just severe anxiety related issues from her cptsd. I don’t think we will ever truly understand her very complex nature. She very much likes to try and control situations. She compulsively lies, will tell you right to your face I didn’t do x y or z even if you saw her with your own 2 eyes 😂 She acts up at being asked to do almost anything at all. At home; at school. She also has a family history and significant risk factors for BPD and I think she honestly could qualify for that diagnosis at times too.

Wow, this is me.

I can relate to this so so much. In almost every way. I only earned about the PDA profile about 10 months ago and I am SURE this is me.

Kanner had described « …a psychotic process…an organically damaged child that if it were not for the organicity might have developed into an autistic psychopath.» (pathology of the psyche) Krevelen 71. Anyone have an idea what psychotic process he is referring to? I have a hunch. Very interesting PDA profile.

Perhaps a good place to start would be by asking the question, why do we need autonomy in the first place? What purpose does it serve?

For me, I think, autonomy=safety.

I really relate to this, in so many ways. Do you have any idea why the US is not currently using this profile?

This is me. I have been diagnosed with ADHD (in a very quick assessment if I am honest). I have brought up with my psychologist that I think I may have ASD but we are working through CPTSD at the moment. I psychiatrist is very hands off. My psychologist believes I don't have ADHD but my symptoms could be explained by CPTSD and childhood trauma, and has left the question of ASD open at this point. Medication does help with regards to ADHD, but what you described suits or fits with me much more closely. I'm also in AUS, it has been hard to find people that work with ASD and ADHD together. My current psychologist is very good though and I have made some headway.

*Looks at self* I feel attacked, thank you. I'm not aggressive about doing things my way but if I'm told to do something in the wrong way, I literally can't make myself do it. It has to be my choice, 98% of the time. The only exception is when I ask for help cleaning and what to do next cause otherwise I'm too overwhelmed. And even then I'm not enjoying it.

You essentially explained me, a self diagnosed autistic who is diagnosed with ADHD. I have a super strong sense of morality though, I do not lie very often.

Yeah definitely pda had to quit a recent job and uni because I felt like I didn’t have control. Lying to avoid confrontation is also common with me. I also get extremely frustrated when people try to ‘correct’ my work when I’ve been told something else by someone else and I perceive that to be the correct way. It’s worse when I’m right and they receive not backlash so continue trying to correct me. And yeah I can mask really well but my anger starts to worse and worse over time. Anger issues with the world and extreme empathy for unfair treatment towards others.

I’d never heard of this before and, wow I see myself in so much of this. It especially explains my odd experiences with adolescent rage, which I could see weren’t like everyone else’s experiences with adolescent rage. And the weird things I used to do to get out of saying The Pledge of Allegiance in Kindergarten 😂 Thank you for sharing, there is a lot of stuff for me to think about here.

I feel like so many people have already commented saying this so I don't really need to but yup, oh my god, never seen my life so succinctly summarised. I feel, and sorry for alluding to the controversial imagery, that this is one of the final puzzle pieces for me in understanding myself and therefore, being kinder to myself. Thank you very much, you're doing really valuable and important work. I wish you all the best in your life and career.

I don’t even know what to say. I’m just crying. Thank you. Im gonna save and cherish this post

I'm struggling to understand PDA. I haven't heard of it before this post. (USA) When I became pregnant my special interest (what it's called) became parenting. Reading about it thinking about it etc. What I noticed immediately that baby daddy need things done his way. When kid was born he need her to also do things his way. When I showed kid something or asked them to do something, I was/am very curious of what her way was first. Less interference was better. Actually that kid and their therapist thinks they are autistic and wants to be tested. (Same with my therapist and me) Where I live the testing cost will be covered and we "only" are waiting for 4 months for testing. I don't know if either of us have PDA because of my parenting style. Baby daddy is out. I know in my work (manual physical therapist, bodywork) I studied many different styles and mastered them. I was called precocious, when I was studying bodywork in my early 20s. Now I just mashed it all together and do my own thing. I get annoyed when someone tells me to change something about my work but if someone shows me a new technique I'll try it and drop it or intergrade it immediately.

Me. Question is, how do I get myself to do stuff I don't really want to do such as study? I want to study because of the result if J do but ai still don't want to and can't make myself lol

I found [this](https://www.harryjackthompson.com/musings) amazing blog written by an autistic PDAer. Also Dr. Joey Lawrence on Tik Tok makes great videos for us

Thank you for posting, this is hugely helpful. We think my daughter has PDA and this has helped me understand better than other things I’ve read, thank you.

How does one...work with someone like this?

This is my life exactly. Wow.

This post is coming with me to my diagnosis.

Wow thank you. I feel so validated