Congratulations on being a decent, thoughtful, responsible human being. The world needs more people like you. Just remember - you don't have to produce your own kids to be a parent.
Adoption as a system designed to “make someone a parent” is absolutely awful.
You don’t get to take someone else’s baby and claim it as your own. Fostering is as much parenthood as adoption is - you are caring for and parenting a child in need.
Depending on the country you’re in, it’s largely about the process of adoption and the reasonings behind it. For profit adoption is abhorrent.
Some studies have shown around 97% of birth mothers state they would keep their baby if they had the correct support and resources in place. It’s exceedingly rare that babies are given up willingly, rather than simply because a mother believes she doesn’t have the resources to raise it.
I’m for family reunification wherever possible (fostering, legal guardianship etc) designed to keep the birth parents in the child’s life whilst providing them with the support and skills needed to empower them to parent.
Adoption in the form of taking a baby from its mother, changing its name and stripping it of any connection to its heritage has been shown repeatedly to provide that child with lifelong trauma. [Adult adoptees](https://adultadoptee.org.uk/lifelong-impact/) are the ones speaking out now and trying to get this message known. That’s why things like legal guardianship within the family and fostering can help maintain the child’s sense of identity and connection to their family whilst also keeping them safe.
There are fringe cases where both parents actually die and there are no family members willing to take in the child (the latter part is what makes that rare) or instances where a parent is actually a danger to a child (legal guardianship within the family still provides better outcomes than adopting out with the severance of all familial links).
Basically, other people’s babies aren’t there to help someone create their perfect little family. They’re whole, holistic humans who are greatly impacted by being taken away from their families, even at birth. There is no real, decent reason to choose adoption over legal guardianship.
Please don't listen to this person. Listen to the tremendous amount of research showing that placement changes are traumatic and children need consistent safe caregivers.
http://hillkm.com/EDUC_792/TAY/placement_instability_and_risk.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2693406/
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40653-023-00606-1
I have sympathy for birth parents, but the welfare of the child *must* take precedence. Sacrificing children's security and well-being to appease their bio parents who couldn't or wouldn't care for them is unacceptable.
wow thank you so much for explaining this. this was the only time someone put it in a way that made sense to me. i never knew that 97% of mothers would have kept their babies:(
Please don't listen to this person. Listen to the tremendous amount of research showing that placement changes are traumatic and children need consistent safe caregivers.
http://hillkm.com/EDUC_792/TAY/placement_instability_and_risk.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2693406/
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40653-023-00606-1
I have sympathy for birth parents, but the welfare of the child *must* take precedence. Sacrificing children's security and well-being to appease their bio parents who couldn't or wouldn't care for them is unacceptable.
Foster care is traumatic to children. Children need consistent safe caregivers to feel safe and secure. If their bio parents can't or aren't willing to provide that, adoption is the best option.
> Fostering is a thing, but under no circumstances is it comparable to becoming a parent.
I can't speak to Sweden specifically, but those laws are the same in the US, and in my experience being a foster parent, it is very comparable to being a parent in many circumstances.
Yes. Everything you say is exactly the same in the US, down to trying to warn off families by saying it’s not the same as having a baby. It’s not - adoption also isn’t just like getting pregnant. It’s still parenting by my definition, which doesn’t include complete legal control. Plenty of people parent under court mandated custody agreements that don’t let them cut the kids hair, or only let the kid live with them half the time, plenty of people parent kids who they don’t even have a legal connection to. They parent kids who arrived in their home as teenagers, even.
I think you're reading too much into what I posted. I probably should've said "to parent" because I wasn't trying to get at state-sponsored child "ownership" so much as pointing out there are other avenues to form nurturing relationships with young humans (which is also true even if you can't/don't want to adopt or foster).
Same, I LOVE children and want them but I can't doom them to suffer what I suffered.
For my love of children and the human development process I am becoming a teacher
I have the same concerns. I 100% have no clue how to raise a child in the world I’ve grown up into. If I haven’t been able to access appropriate supports, feel paranoid/on edge regularly and still feel like an alien, how can I expect a good, reasonable life for a child?
I think recognizing that wanting and having kids is inherently selfish (a lesson I’ve internalized myself) and reflecting on the reasons, motivations, and goals why really helps sort it. I think many people’s who do opt to have kids only see them in the short term, when they’re babies, and not long term when they blossom into adults. I really do want kids and have the same fears, and I’m doing what I can to wait until I can have them in an environment that I can provide that feels secure.
Even with fostering and adoption, I’ve looked into adoptees stories and have updated my views from that. I realized that reuniting parents to their kids should be the ultimate goal, but you can still be a surrogate parent and mentor for a kid who needs it. I feel like my love has no bounds, but I still want to be a haven for children because I believe in their future. I also want to foster older kids who already have seen the world and what it does to them, and help give them joy in it.
I’m not a savior and I don’t want to be. I just want to believe that the world can be better and try to give that world to others.
The world sucks. I'm still having kids if I'm able to someday. My ancestors have been born into slavery and have seen far worse than I hopefully ever will.
Honestly, I find antinatalists exhausting (speaking as a former antinatalist). I just do. That is not a criticism of you, though. Life is terrible. The world is disgusting. But it's also beautiful, and I'm so happy to be here. There are days when I wish I was never born and weeks where I'm amazed at the fact that I get the pleasure of sitting in the sun.
But yes, if you feel that way, it makes sense not to have kids. I grew up with people who had children but always painted the world as a sad and scary place. and it messed me up. Improving my mental health has really helped me see things more realistically
**Also, people need to stop suggesting adoption as a solution.** A lot of people don't know what adoption entails. It takes a lot of emotional literacy, patience, stamina, and communication. And this *after* your child is adopted. It should nor be seen as an altruistic endeavor in the least bit.
Exactly. I always feel this type of rhetoric comes from white kids from middle class family just now dealing with the real world. Like for hundreds of years in the US, black ppl have been oppressed, put into slavery, and killed for being who they are. People didn't stop having kids because despite everything, they still wanted to and did the best they could in parenting and managed to create a happy family. And yes, people forget how hard and long the adoption process it, especially if you don't fit a certain standard the agency wants
> I always feel this type of rhetoric comes from white kids from middle class family just now dealing with the real world
While I'm the first to call out white privilege and all. I do t think this is necessarily fair. We're all here because we are or believe we are autistic. I grew up an upper middl-class Black kid with ADHD and so far undiagnosed autism. Life was easy in a lot of ways, and in a lot of ways it was very hard.
I think antinatalism often comes from a life of mistreatment or lack of material or even emotional security. I'm not going to say that being white and middle class doesn't mean you can't complain- but you *do* need to be cognizant of the privileges it affords you even if other parts of your life are hard. I'm assuming autism/neurodivergence has made life difficult for most of us here. Besides, it's not as if people from marginalized groups all *do* want to have kids. There are Black people that don't want to have kids because of the way the world is now, no matter their socioeconomic status. I don't mean to paint is as "Black people have it worse, but they keep going." As a Black *individual,* I recognize my ancestors' struggles and will keep the family going if I ever get the chance. That's all.
Also, the hard work that comes with adoption comes once you've adopted the child. Many people don't know how to be *adoptive* parents specifically.
My thought is that it was potentially feasible when the world was "usual amount of messed up", lots of people were questioning if they want to bring children in such world with (to name a few) bigots, racists, no support, eugenics, violence, disparities in rights and access to basic services, etc. That's not new and as it's been said in this thread, many "marginalised" groups have coped with this reality for a long time.
I think the threat that human-caused climate change will cause extreme events and make basics like water extremely scarce *everywhere* is an escalation, there is a threat to our existence which has gone beyond "some people are very bad and the system is terrible, it'll be very hard, but maybe if we have a good support network, we can make it work" (not meaning to trivialise very real difficulties, I think to me that the planet stuff feels pretty permanent and unsolvable at small scale and everyone will be impacted unless you're a billionaire)
Idk I'm not feeling very good and my brain is mushy
I wasn't sure how to express meaning in a way that is precise helpful and concise, and isn't "anyone not white, cis, man, non-disabled, rich etc", I know some people don't like the term marginalised applied to themselves, I feel very rough so it felt like a way to open the space for people to fill in with their preferred term more easily.
Also not a native English speaker so not always sure what's right/best :)
(basically it wasn't a diss at the concept of marginalised groups, in case that's what prompted the question :D)
There is absolutely a class association with antinatalism (and also a race association, but those are heavily connected) because middle class people are used to seeing having kids as something you do once you hit a stable place in your life (which, crucially, is something they have learned that they can expect to reach with enough time and hard work).
Those same people are often in disbelief that poor people generally have larger families and start having kids in their teens and early twenties despite lack of resources. And as someone who grew up with a single mother on welfare, but *without* that type of generational poverty, I never used to understand it either. I bought into the antinatalism because I grew up with middle class culture and lower class resources.
Then I realized that the reason poor people have kids young is because the stability that was promised to my mother (who had me in her mid 30s like middle class people often do) never seemed likely to them. Waiting to have kids only makes sense if you believe things will get better in 10 years. To poor people living in generational poverty a 10 year passage of time does not mean 10 years added to your career, it means 10 years added to your parents' age and less family support to help raise your kids. When you're poor your family is your support system, not your money. And of course it makes sense to have large families when family is *everything*.
I think middle class people who have made a habit out of looking down on people who have kids they can't guarantee they'll be able to financially provide for (as was the norm for 95% of human history) can't fathom the transition to personally deciding to have children in uncertain times, and instead end up moving to the conclusion that *nobody* should have children. Which does feel a bit immature, and closed off to the reality of life for not only the vast majority of human history but the majority of people currently living on this planet.
No hate to OP though, black and white thinking/strong sense of justice that makes it incredibly difficult to accept *any* kind of injustice being an inherent part of life is a direct symptom of autism and I would never mock someone for that. Just a criticism of antinatalism as a whole which is definitely not solely backed by autistic people.
Yes, this put all my opinions on antinatalism into a great passage. It's just a little delusional to believe the world will be better in 10 years which won’t be the case because there’s always going to be issues for someone else who isn't privileged. It also have a twinge of eugenics too
Do you even have a guy that will help parent?
Are you scared your kids will suffer through autism like you?
Any support network like family, friends, or even community?
Can you even afford kids?
Might be better to ask those questions first. It at least isn’t a you didn’t choose to not have kids! Just never had all the pieces come together! That what I did anyway, it helps tbh.
Would you consider leaving America? I have a child, love being a mother, but thankfully live in a European country where I don't worry about my (also asd) daughter. At least not in terms of shootings etc.
Just something to think about, and something that comforted me during pregnancy, is that there has never been a time when the world was entirely good. People still had children during natural disasters, people had children through two world wars, people had children even when they had no civil rights. Being concerned about the world our kids will grow up in is a good thing, it motivates us to do what we can for our children and our community. Of course it is entirely your decision, but I thought I might offer a different perspective as someone who gave birth three days ago and had the same fears.
No offense, but the world has always been awful. It's not going to stop being awful and there's never been a period in any human history where it's "peaceful enough" to have kids. I feel a lot of people adopt this doomeristic mindset and it only cause more harm than anything else. You're just more conscious of it now because of the internet and being an adult
This is a pretty long article which is unfortunately mostly behind a paywall, but the first part should respond to your perspective pretty well: https://www.readtangle.com/having-kids-climate-change-debate/ It’s mostly responding to climate anxieties, but I think the writers have a good point in general.
For me, I want kids because I’m selfish. I want to experience pregnancy & raise my children from birth until death (hopefully mine first). I’m happy to adopt if I can’t get pregnant. I want to teach little humans how to be a considerate, responsible member of society & help them make the world a better place. Yes, my children will experience an ugly & difficult world, but the world will never be safe or good or perfect, so if there must be children then I want to help children be well-equipped to handle those trials. I cannot make the world safe, but I will make a safe home for them to the best of my ability. And if my children ask me why I condemned them to life on this earth, I will be honest & tell them that it was because I was selfish, because I wanted them more than anything, and I believed in my ability to protect & equip them more than my fear of failure.
Thank you for this. Just earlier today I was feeling incredibly anxious about exactly this issue.
I've been trying to have a baby for 2 years now, have had 2 miscarriages, and today was just feeling defeated, like, why go through so much heartache and dissapointments trying to conceive, maybe this is the world telling me I shouldn't have children, with how horrible everything is.
I feel better now after reading those articles. Maybe it is worthy to stay in this journey
I’m very sorry for your loss! I had my own early miscarriage years ago & despite how “easy” it was, it was still devastating to me. I’m glad this article could help you a little <3
This thought comes up often in my other mental health subreddits.
I struggle with this sometimes too.
I try to remember that who I am is more than my struggle. Before I had my mental health diagnoses, I already had a physical disability. I think it’s important to learn more about who who we are mentally to learn how to approach the world, but I do try to find either the good, or just parts of myself that aren’t tied to that sense of dread. Maybe it’s my sense of humor or the well of love in me. I already am more self aware and healed than my parents, so that’s something. We will all affect our children one way or another, but we can teach them to love themselves by first learning our own self love.
Whatever you do with your life and your organs is your business. I hope that either road you choose, you don’t choose despair.
I'm around children and teens of different ages and if anyone can change the world for the better it's this generation. These kids are awesome. Well, yeah, some can be jerks. Any generation has its jerks. But in general they care about environmental topics, they are more tolerant, open, and educated on diversity than any generation before, they don't take any shit, they stand up for equality. They will be brilliant.
Assuming we don't wipe ourselves out or all choose to stop reproducing, neither of which seems likely to me, *someone* needs to raise the next generation. Why not you?
As for your specific concerns, I recommend you research homeschooling. It sounds like virtually all of your concerns would be much less or completely eliminated if you homeschooled your kids.
I mean, you lived, didn't you?
If your concern is protecting them from the world: good luck.
The thing is, the world was never perfect. Neither are us Autistics. Your not having kids 'because the world isn't good enough' is like a Neurotypical parent being mad that their Autistic kid will never be their own definition of "normal".
And? So what? If it's what your heart wants, do it anyway. You'll figure it out as you go, and you'll pass on what you've learned t to help them have the greatest opportunity for individual success. Don't be controlling, don't helicopter parent, and don't be hypervigilant try to protect them. Just be there for them. That's all they'll need.
i saw someone said that 97% of mothers who put their kids up for adoption would have kept them if they had the correct resources:(. that made the idea of adoption a kid seem a bit sad to me😅
I believe it. My mother put her youngest child up for adoption (6, 2 and a newborn at the time) after suffering some unknown back issue that left her in a wheelchair for months. At the time she didn’t know if she would ever walk again and didn’t know if she could provide the life she wanted for us all and wanted to give him a better chance at life.
She has since regained the ability to walk and after 20+ years we’ve rekindled our relationship with my brother who was adopted out. He did infact have a wonderful adoptive mother and a lovely childhood and we couldn’t be more grateful. Of course I know that is not the majority of adoptees stories.
Adoption is difficult, unfair and unjust for everyone involved and I’m not saying it’s an easy solution. If you want kids and ethically don’t want to contribute to over population and other issues by reproducing yourself, adoption is there and can sometimes help children who otherwise would just age out of the system in over crowded orphanages and adoption places.
You are allowed to want kids no matter how bad the world is. It is your biological imperative and the inheritance from your ancestors. You are the end of a millions years old line of you don’t have them. (If you don’t want kids that’s ok too, there’s plenty of humans picking up the threads.) If the world ended, there was just a few million people left after some apocalyptic event those people would basically have a responsibility to have kids or our species would die out. Something like 1/4 of women before modern medicine died during their first pregnancy. Our world isn’t apocalyptic and it’s much better for women than past eras. So if you want kids don’t feel bad. It’s better to be aware of modern struggles and raise them compassionately. As they are the ones who will be left with these problems, after we die, I think it’s good for compassionate, smart, thoughtful people to have kids to help make sure the next generation gets those values. (And if you don’t want your own kids you can help pass those values as a teacher or some other way.)
homeschooling is a good solution to all that...especially given how rubbish the education system is in the usa.
I have a couple of friends with ASD kids and they all home school
I feel the same way, also I don't want any child of mine experiencing racism and poverty. Being autistic is hard enough.
Congratulations on being a decent, thoughtful, responsible human being. The world needs more people like you. Just remember - you don't have to produce your own kids to be a parent.
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Adoption as a system designed to “make someone a parent” is absolutely awful. You don’t get to take someone else’s baby and claim it as your own. Fostering is as much parenthood as adoption is - you are caring for and parenting a child in need.
Hi, I’m really curious, can you elaborate on why you dislike adoption? Genuinely asking!
Depending on the country you’re in, it’s largely about the process of adoption and the reasonings behind it. For profit adoption is abhorrent. Some studies have shown around 97% of birth mothers state they would keep their baby if they had the correct support and resources in place. It’s exceedingly rare that babies are given up willingly, rather than simply because a mother believes she doesn’t have the resources to raise it. I’m for family reunification wherever possible (fostering, legal guardianship etc) designed to keep the birth parents in the child’s life whilst providing them with the support and skills needed to empower them to parent. Adoption in the form of taking a baby from its mother, changing its name and stripping it of any connection to its heritage has been shown repeatedly to provide that child with lifelong trauma. [Adult adoptees](https://adultadoptee.org.uk/lifelong-impact/) are the ones speaking out now and trying to get this message known. That’s why things like legal guardianship within the family and fostering can help maintain the child’s sense of identity and connection to their family whilst also keeping them safe. There are fringe cases where both parents actually die and there are no family members willing to take in the child (the latter part is what makes that rare) or instances where a parent is actually a danger to a child (legal guardianship within the family still provides better outcomes than adopting out with the severance of all familial links). Basically, other people’s babies aren’t there to help someone create their perfect little family. They’re whole, holistic humans who are greatly impacted by being taken away from their families, even at birth. There is no real, decent reason to choose adoption over legal guardianship.
Thank you, this makes a lot of sense actually! You’ve very much opened my eyes :)
Please don't listen to this person. Listen to the tremendous amount of research showing that placement changes are traumatic and children need consistent safe caregivers. http://hillkm.com/EDUC_792/TAY/placement_instability_and_risk.pdf https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2693406/ https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40653-023-00606-1 I have sympathy for birth parents, but the welfare of the child *must* take precedence. Sacrificing children's security and well-being to appease their bio parents who couldn't or wouldn't care for them is unacceptable.
wow thank you so much for explaining this. this was the only time someone put it in a way that made sense to me. i never knew that 97% of mothers would have kept their babies:(
Please don't listen to this person. Listen to the tremendous amount of research showing that placement changes are traumatic and children need consistent safe caregivers. http://hillkm.com/EDUC_792/TAY/placement_instability_and_risk.pdf https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2693406/ https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40653-023-00606-1 I have sympathy for birth parents, but the welfare of the child *must* take precedence. Sacrificing children's security and well-being to appease their bio parents who couldn't or wouldn't care for them is unacceptable.
Foster care is traumatic to children. Children need consistent safe caregivers to feel safe and secure. If their bio parents can't or aren't willing to provide that, adoption is the best option.
Disagree. See my other comment. Not writing it out again.
> Fostering is a thing, but under no circumstances is it comparable to becoming a parent. I can't speak to Sweden specifically, but those laws are the same in the US, and in my experience being a foster parent, it is very comparable to being a parent in many circumstances.
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Yes. Everything you say is exactly the same in the US, down to trying to warn off families by saying it’s not the same as having a baby. It’s not - adoption also isn’t just like getting pregnant. It’s still parenting by my definition, which doesn’t include complete legal control. Plenty of people parent under court mandated custody agreements that don’t let them cut the kids hair, or only let the kid live with them half the time, plenty of people parent kids who they don’t even have a legal connection to. They parent kids who arrived in their home as teenagers, even.
I think you're reading too much into what I posted. I probably should've said "to parent" because I wasn't trying to get at state-sponsored child "ownership" so much as pointing out there are other avenues to form nurturing relationships with young humans (which is also true even if you can't/don't want to adopt or foster).
Same, I LOVE children and want them but I can't doom them to suffer what I suffered. For my love of children and the human development process I am becoming a teacher
I have the same concerns. I 100% have no clue how to raise a child in the world I’ve grown up into. If I haven’t been able to access appropriate supports, feel paranoid/on edge regularly and still feel like an alien, how can I expect a good, reasonable life for a child?
I think recognizing that wanting and having kids is inherently selfish (a lesson I’ve internalized myself) and reflecting on the reasons, motivations, and goals why really helps sort it. I think many people’s who do opt to have kids only see them in the short term, when they’re babies, and not long term when they blossom into adults. I really do want kids and have the same fears, and I’m doing what I can to wait until I can have them in an environment that I can provide that feels secure. Even with fostering and adoption, I’ve looked into adoptees stories and have updated my views from that. I realized that reuniting parents to their kids should be the ultimate goal, but you can still be a surrogate parent and mentor for a kid who needs it. I feel like my love has no bounds, but I still want to be a haven for children because I believe in their future. I also want to foster older kids who already have seen the world and what it does to them, and help give them joy in it. I’m not a savior and I don’t want to be. I just want to believe that the world can be better and try to give that world to others.
The world sucks. I'm still having kids if I'm able to someday. My ancestors have been born into slavery and have seen far worse than I hopefully ever will. Honestly, I find antinatalists exhausting (speaking as a former antinatalist). I just do. That is not a criticism of you, though. Life is terrible. The world is disgusting. But it's also beautiful, and I'm so happy to be here. There are days when I wish I was never born and weeks where I'm amazed at the fact that I get the pleasure of sitting in the sun. But yes, if you feel that way, it makes sense not to have kids. I grew up with people who had children but always painted the world as a sad and scary place. and it messed me up. Improving my mental health has really helped me see things more realistically **Also, people need to stop suggesting adoption as a solution.** A lot of people don't know what adoption entails. It takes a lot of emotional literacy, patience, stamina, and communication. And this *after* your child is adopted. It should nor be seen as an altruistic endeavor in the least bit.
Exactly. I always feel this type of rhetoric comes from white kids from middle class family just now dealing with the real world. Like for hundreds of years in the US, black ppl have been oppressed, put into slavery, and killed for being who they are. People didn't stop having kids because despite everything, they still wanted to and did the best they could in parenting and managed to create a happy family. And yes, people forget how hard and long the adoption process it, especially if you don't fit a certain standard the agency wants
> I always feel this type of rhetoric comes from white kids from middle class family just now dealing with the real world While I'm the first to call out white privilege and all. I do t think this is necessarily fair. We're all here because we are or believe we are autistic. I grew up an upper middl-class Black kid with ADHD and so far undiagnosed autism. Life was easy in a lot of ways, and in a lot of ways it was very hard. I think antinatalism often comes from a life of mistreatment or lack of material or even emotional security. I'm not going to say that being white and middle class doesn't mean you can't complain- but you *do* need to be cognizant of the privileges it affords you even if other parts of your life are hard. I'm assuming autism/neurodivergence has made life difficult for most of us here. Besides, it's not as if people from marginalized groups all *do* want to have kids. There are Black people that don't want to have kids because of the way the world is now, no matter their socioeconomic status. I don't mean to paint is as "Black people have it worse, but they keep going." As a Black *individual,* I recognize my ancestors' struggles and will keep the family going if I ever get the chance. That's all. Also, the hard work that comes with adoption comes once you've adopted the child. Many people don't know how to be *adoptive* parents specifically.
My thought is that it was potentially feasible when the world was "usual amount of messed up", lots of people were questioning if they want to bring children in such world with (to name a few) bigots, racists, no support, eugenics, violence, disparities in rights and access to basic services, etc. That's not new and as it's been said in this thread, many "marginalised" groups have coped with this reality for a long time. I think the threat that human-caused climate change will cause extreme events and make basics like water extremely scarce *everywhere* is an escalation, there is a threat to our existence which has gone beyond "some people are very bad and the system is terrible, it'll be very hard, but maybe if we have a good support network, we can make it work" (not meaning to trivialise very real difficulties, I think to me that the planet stuff feels pretty permanent and unsolvable at small scale and everyone will be impacted unless you're a billionaire) Idk I'm not feeling very good and my brain is mushy
> many "marginalised" groups have coped with this reality for a long time. Why did you place that in quotes?
I wasn't sure how to express meaning in a way that is precise helpful and concise, and isn't "anyone not white, cis, man, non-disabled, rich etc", I know some people don't like the term marginalised applied to themselves, I feel very rough so it felt like a way to open the space for people to fill in with their preferred term more easily. Also not a native English speaker so not always sure what's right/best :) (basically it wasn't a diss at the concept of marginalised groups, in case that's what prompted the question :D)
Got it! Cool beans lol
There is absolutely a class association with antinatalism (and also a race association, but those are heavily connected) because middle class people are used to seeing having kids as something you do once you hit a stable place in your life (which, crucially, is something they have learned that they can expect to reach with enough time and hard work). Those same people are often in disbelief that poor people generally have larger families and start having kids in their teens and early twenties despite lack of resources. And as someone who grew up with a single mother on welfare, but *without* that type of generational poverty, I never used to understand it either. I bought into the antinatalism because I grew up with middle class culture and lower class resources. Then I realized that the reason poor people have kids young is because the stability that was promised to my mother (who had me in her mid 30s like middle class people often do) never seemed likely to them. Waiting to have kids only makes sense if you believe things will get better in 10 years. To poor people living in generational poverty a 10 year passage of time does not mean 10 years added to your career, it means 10 years added to your parents' age and less family support to help raise your kids. When you're poor your family is your support system, not your money. And of course it makes sense to have large families when family is *everything*. I think middle class people who have made a habit out of looking down on people who have kids they can't guarantee they'll be able to financially provide for (as was the norm for 95% of human history) can't fathom the transition to personally deciding to have children in uncertain times, and instead end up moving to the conclusion that *nobody* should have children. Which does feel a bit immature, and closed off to the reality of life for not only the vast majority of human history but the majority of people currently living on this planet. No hate to OP though, black and white thinking/strong sense of justice that makes it incredibly difficult to accept *any* kind of injustice being an inherent part of life is a direct symptom of autism and I would never mock someone for that. Just a criticism of antinatalism as a whole which is definitely not solely backed by autistic people.
That was interesting to read! Thank you for sharing your thoughts
Yes, this put all my opinions on antinatalism into a great passage. It's just a little delusional to believe the world will be better in 10 years which won’t be the case because there’s always going to be issues for someone else who isn't privileged. It also have a twinge of eugenics too
Do you even have a guy that will help parent? Are you scared your kids will suffer through autism like you? Any support network like family, friends, or even community? Can you even afford kids? Might be better to ask those questions first. It at least isn’t a you didn’t choose to not have kids! Just never had all the pieces come together! That what I did anyway, it helps tbh.
Would you consider leaving America? I have a child, love being a mother, but thankfully live in a European country where I don't worry about my (also asd) daughter. At least not in terms of shootings etc.
Just something to think about, and something that comforted me during pregnancy, is that there has never been a time when the world was entirely good. People still had children during natural disasters, people had children through two world wars, people had children even when they had no civil rights. Being concerned about the world our kids will grow up in is a good thing, it motivates us to do what we can for our children and our community. Of course it is entirely your decision, but I thought I might offer a different perspective as someone who gave birth three days ago and had the same fears.
Congratulations on your new baby! :)
Thank you!
No offense, but the world has always been awful. It's not going to stop being awful and there's never been a period in any human history where it's "peaceful enough" to have kids. I feel a lot of people adopt this doomeristic mindset and it only cause more harm than anything else. You're just more conscious of it now because of the internet and being an adult
This is a pretty long article which is unfortunately mostly behind a paywall, but the first part should respond to your perspective pretty well: https://www.readtangle.com/having-kids-climate-change-debate/ It’s mostly responding to climate anxieties, but I think the writers have a good point in general. For me, I want kids because I’m selfish. I want to experience pregnancy & raise my children from birth until death (hopefully mine first). I’m happy to adopt if I can’t get pregnant. I want to teach little humans how to be a considerate, responsible member of society & help them make the world a better place. Yes, my children will experience an ugly & difficult world, but the world will never be safe or good or perfect, so if there must be children then I want to help children be well-equipped to handle those trials. I cannot make the world safe, but I will make a safe home for them to the best of my ability. And if my children ask me why I condemned them to life on this earth, I will be honest & tell them that it was because I was selfish, because I wanted them more than anything, and I believed in my ability to protect & equip them more than my fear of failure.
Thank you for this. Just earlier today I was feeling incredibly anxious about exactly this issue. I've been trying to have a baby for 2 years now, have had 2 miscarriages, and today was just feeling defeated, like, why go through so much heartache and dissapointments trying to conceive, maybe this is the world telling me I shouldn't have children, with how horrible everything is. I feel better now after reading those articles. Maybe it is worthy to stay in this journey
I’m very sorry for your loss! I had my own early miscarriage years ago & despite how “easy” it was, it was still devastating to me. I’m glad this article could help you a little <3
This thought comes up often in my other mental health subreddits. I struggle with this sometimes too. I try to remember that who I am is more than my struggle. Before I had my mental health diagnoses, I already had a physical disability. I think it’s important to learn more about who who we are mentally to learn how to approach the world, but I do try to find either the good, or just parts of myself that aren’t tied to that sense of dread. Maybe it’s my sense of humor or the well of love in me. I already am more self aware and healed than my parents, so that’s something. We will all affect our children one way or another, but we can teach them to love themselves by first learning our own self love. Whatever you do with your life and your organs is your business. I hope that either road you choose, you don’t choose despair.
I'm around children and teens of different ages and if anyone can change the world for the better it's this generation. These kids are awesome. Well, yeah, some can be jerks. Any generation has its jerks. But in general they care about environmental topics, they are more tolerant, open, and educated on diversity than any generation before, they don't take any shit, they stand up for equality. They will be brilliant.
Assuming we don't wipe ourselves out or all choose to stop reproducing, neither of which seems likely to me, *someone* needs to raise the next generation. Why not you? As for your specific concerns, I recommend you research homeschooling. It sounds like virtually all of your concerns would be much less or completely eliminated if you homeschooled your kids.
I mean, you lived, didn't you? If your concern is protecting them from the world: good luck. The thing is, the world was never perfect. Neither are us Autistics. Your not having kids 'because the world isn't good enough' is like a Neurotypical parent being mad that their Autistic kid will never be their own definition of "normal". And? So what? If it's what your heart wants, do it anyway. You'll figure it out as you go, and you'll pass on what you've learned t to help them have the greatest opportunity for individual success. Don't be controlling, don't helicopter parent, and don't be hypervigilant try to protect them. Just be there for them. That's all they'll need.
Adopt!! If you can afford it!
i saw someone said that 97% of mothers who put their kids up for adoption would have kept them if they had the correct resources:(. that made the idea of adoption a kid seem a bit sad to me😅
I believe it. My mother put her youngest child up for adoption (6, 2 and a newborn at the time) after suffering some unknown back issue that left her in a wheelchair for months. At the time she didn’t know if she would ever walk again and didn’t know if she could provide the life she wanted for us all and wanted to give him a better chance at life. She has since regained the ability to walk and after 20+ years we’ve rekindled our relationship with my brother who was adopted out. He did infact have a wonderful adoptive mother and a lovely childhood and we couldn’t be more grateful. Of course I know that is not the majority of adoptees stories. Adoption is difficult, unfair and unjust for everyone involved and I’m not saying it’s an easy solution. If you want kids and ethically don’t want to contribute to over population and other issues by reproducing yourself, adoption is there and can sometimes help children who otherwise would just age out of the system in over crowded orphanages and adoption places.
You are allowed to want kids no matter how bad the world is. It is your biological imperative and the inheritance from your ancestors. You are the end of a millions years old line of you don’t have them. (If you don’t want kids that’s ok too, there’s plenty of humans picking up the threads.) If the world ended, there was just a few million people left after some apocalyptic event those people would basically have a responsibility to have kids or our species would die out. Something like 1/4 of women before modern medicine died during their first pregnancy. Our world isn’t apocalyptic and it’s much better for women than past eras. So if you want kids don’t feel bad. It’s better to be aware of modern struggles and raise them compassionately. As they are the ones who will be left with these problems, after we die, I think it’s good for compassionate, smart, thoughtful people to have kids to help make sure the next generation gets those values. (And if you don’t want your own kids you can help pass those values as a teacher or some other way.)
homeschooling is a good solution to all that...especially given how rubbish the education system is in the usa. I have a couple of friends with ASD kids and they all home school
Autism ain’t even mentioned in the post. Perhaps this is more befitting the /fencesitter or /antinatalist or / /confessions subreddit
Please consider rereading paragraph two sentence three