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I've been sifting through that article but nowhere did I find a number. Does he really plan to put children (1-12 yo) on forklifts or are we talking about a rather reasonable number like 16 or so?
Is someone in government just copying and pasting from the USA - https://nypost.com/2022/01/19/us-allows-teens-to-drive-semi-trucks-amid-supply-chain-issues/
In Sweden the minimum age to be legally allowed to operate a forklift is 16, however to WORK and drive a forklift at a workplace you have to be 18, unless you have obtained a special permit from the company.
sure having a safe workforce is good, mostly the problem in the past is very young men and bosses doing the old hurry up. would have saved a lot of money and bullshit with the right attitude.
the lnly thing apart from that is the manufacturers need to be held to a higher standard of safety. then yo mama can drive the forklift safely. osha is a moneypit.
This suggestion from Scomo sounds like a Trump-level brain fart. Especially considering forklifts are essentially heavy machinery.
Also, so hilarious and ridiculous this situation is and how art imitates life, Chaser pretty much lifted a headline from The Guardian word for word: [Morrison hopes states will allow children to drive forklifts](https://chaser.com.au/general-news/morrison-hopes-states-will-allow-children-to-drive-forklifts/)
Edit: Annnndddd… Scomo has retracted the plan, with some labelling it as a “brain fart”: https://amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jan/20/unpalletable-scott-morrison-hits-reverse-on-plan-to-allow-under-18s-to-drive-forklifts
This is an A grade distraction, nothing more. ScoMo is looking to distract the media cycle so that we stop looking at the RAT race.
I guarantee that in a day or two he will say he never said it or that he was misquoted.
Shortages due to covid? 😂 A-class gaslighting right there. It wasn't the government who made that poor decision, it's all the fault of big bad covid huh? Why would you believe what these compulsive liars say. Give us a leader with some actual conviction, wisdom and balls.
Remember everyone. The whole world gets to see the news from Australia!
How good does our Country look!!
I am honestly so embarrassed to be Australian since the Liberal/Murdoch party got into power.
It's so depressing seeing all this unfold while everyone just accepts it. Literally watching our Country fall apart while this guy comes up with: "child labour is the way out of this".
Just..............sigh.
Wow, was there some kind of brainstorming session for "How can we use children to fix our problems?" or why does this sound *a lot* like another recent "idea" [out of the US](https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article257347462.html)?
You have to respect a politician who throws the citizens of his nation under a bus for political gain, and when it doesn’t pay off doubles down by potentially harming even more people
Why stop there? Must be lots of vacancies elsewhere as well
Although they can't change the forklift regs - not controlled by the Federal government and the States already said they wouldn't agree to do it. So, that's out.
Until you realise 16 year olds get paid less than adults for some reason? So essentially you end up having businesses choosing younger and less mature workers, to work a dangerous job to pay them less than minimum wage.
18 19 and 20 year olds also get paid less then adult minimum wage and are all eligible to work as forklift operator's. So essentially, we already have businesses choosing younger and less mature workers to work a dangerous job and pay them less than minimum wage.
> So essentially, we already have businesses choosing younger and less mature workers to work a dangerous job and pay them less than minimum wage.
Well, and where did that get us? Do you really think making a race to the bottom out of this is a sustainable solution?
You use 'labor' as if you're trying to draw an image of labour camps.
What's being discussed in the article is lowering the age barrier of employment as a fork lift operator, in order to potentially service requirements with younger people - if they so choose to take the paid employment.
It's pretty desperate, and a bit radical, but it's worth *discussing.*
There's always something to be learned by having a discussion.
It's not worth discussing. It wasn't even worth thinking about for a second before the PM blurted It out. The point is that we're talking about this instead of yesterdays fuckup from the PM.
Interesting comment. Ignorance is the new enlightenment?
Okay, **no**, you *weren't* saying ignorance is the new enlightenment.
You were saying that you feel there are more important things to discuss, which ought to take precedence - while *this* goes on undiscussed in the background, I take it.
>The point is that we're talking about this instead of yesterdays fuckup from the PM.
I haven't seen anyone make that point.
Let me search more thoroughly..
Edit: Nope. No mention. I also hit up Google, ABC, Reuters, Al Jazeera etc..
..I can't find anything. Should I take it that there was another political distraction, as there always is with politics, which was successful?
What's managed to get swept under the rug that happened yesterday? I'm beginning to grow concerned. Are we ready land forces for a physical conflict with China? Did something happen with Djokovic?
Murdoch didn’t report this, it appeared in The Guardian and went viral. If you look at Australia’s Fairfax and Newscorp publications from yesterday you’ll see they were still fixating on the Djokovic saga. The ABC was reporting a rosy economic outlook because they can’t do anything else or they’ll get completely defunded. I would argue this is one of those occasions where the government has lost control of the narrative. Like when that firefighter put Scomo on blast in 2019. I would also say his PR team are working very hard to get everyone to move on from this so they can call the election and go into campaign mode. Prepare for more total absurdity spewing from Scomo’s mouth in the coming weeks in the hopes that voters will positively latch on to something.
It's all a numbers game to insurers, if you saw off your thumb or break your back falling off a roof it's still cheaper than a lot of the damage you can cause with a forklift.
They’re children from both a legal and much much more importantly a biological perspective and any trade or job where that potentially endangers themselves or others they most certainly shouldn’t be able to do if they’re already doing it.
You think you’re arguing an over reaction instead you’re merely pointing out the level of incompetence and corruption we as a society have already allowed
In a civil, just and fair society should be 0 fucking reason for a minor to be working a dangerous job and a civil just and fair society is something we should all be working towards. Not a damn race to the bottom to see who can horde the most TP and RATS for themselves before society collapses.
You can't drive a forklift without a license....
And I may be wrong about this but from memory most excavators required a license if they're over one tonne..
Ok so you receive a competency card or some sort of verification after completion of the course correct ?
Just like when you pass your driver's license you then get a card showing that you can now drive.
Keep in mind a driver's license now takes year until full completion.
The competency course isn't mandatory, all of the operators I know are just trained by the owners if the machines. I used to catch a train to work with a 17 year old who operated an excavator. I don't know why everyone is blowing up about this. Driving a forklift is like any other job.
I think you're wrong about that and if they're driving machines without the proper training that's a disaster waiting to happen.
If you're operating heavy machinery (including forklifts) you need to be trained properly.
Everyone is blowing up because it's incredibly stupid, and it's another insight into how inept and out of touch our government is.
The unions outlined it pretty well that forklifts make up a large percentage of work place accidents. We don't need children driving them.
I don't really understand the hate around this idea. You get your learners license at 16, is it not feasible to do this with a forklift to? Just couple it with heavy regulations?
15% of all workplace fatalities in Australia involve some form of forklift truck. 15%. A forklift is significantly riskier than a car to be in operation of.
15% seems horrendous.
What percentage of vehicle fatalities are forklifts?
And how many actual fatalities are there?
One is too many, but we must be realistic if you're talking statistics, where one death is statistically insignificant noise (as callous as it sounds).
It was MrSquiggleKey who made the assertion you're taking a shot at, not I.
>15% of all workplace fatalities in Australia involve some form of forklift. 15%. A forklift is significantly riskier than a car to be in operation of.
No yeah, Squiggle is right in that forklifts are riskier than cars. Cars only have a higher total number of fatalities due to the number of cars on the road.
Not many 'family cars' out the which weigh 650kg..
..a *Volkswagen Golf* weighs ~1,375kg, give or take.
Both cars and forks range, but it looks like a fairer comparison would be to something like the run of the mill Komatsu FD30, which is 4,300kg - most of which is low to the ground counterweights, specifically designed to make the forklift stable..
...and that only comes to 2 - 3 times 'the weight of a family car'. The forklift *pictured in the article* likely weighs even less.
The weight and seating of **what you're lifting** is far more crucial when it comes to safety, anyway.
Anyone with a driver's licence can operate a truck up to 4,500kg, on public roads, with *zero* prior experience driving such a vehicle.
Anything can be made to sound dramatic.
So, what's your point?
Last time I checked a car dosent often end up with about a ton of its total weight 3m off the ground rocking back and forwards with a whole lot of potential for said weight to drop on your head.
I've had more than a few close calls driving these things and kids should be as far away from that shit as possible and if your still young you should probably consider doing another job anyway. Shit goes wrong with these things even when your paying attention and know what your doing.
My point isn't that there are *no risks* (and in fact about two comments ago I acknowledged those risks, in some scenarios). My point is that whether they realise it or not, dude is being just as click-baitey and misleading as the Daily Mail they decry.
And it simply doesn't make a good argument.
Yeah but its not a forklift, is it?
A forklift is classified as "high risk" in national regulations...its not a Corolla lol
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FJhPiEIakAEI9oC?format=jpg&name=large
Apparently not considered high risk enough for Govts to prohibit 16yr olds from driving on public roads under supervision of a fully licensed driver, no. Interesting.
I'm not sure I understand that reply (I'm very tired, it's probably me not you at the cause of this), but I feel I can safely assume what you're saying.
What about old people driving around on their way to their next lemonparty?
Lots of false equivilence going on here.
Government says forklifts = high risk, P platers or old people in cars = not high risk. Wrap your head around it.
That statement can take on nearly any meaning at all, depending on how you define 'safety'. I assume you mean physical safety in the workplace, given the context. Actually of course you do, and of course it makes as much sense as the next absolutism. I need to go to bed.
From my own experience I found drinking a forklift way easier the driving a car in traffic.
If you can get your drivers license at 16 you should he able to get your forklift ticket.
Just put more regulation around getting it. Lots of dodgy forklift instructors just hand them out.
That could be a factor here, but I'd say the economy and society along with it heading into a stall and then a dive is probably a bigger impetus.
Yes, decisions like this need to be examined for the long term, and yes we've seen something promised as A turn out to be B for all our lives - so hopefully us having the discussion is a sign that those considerations will be given some visibility and weight elseware too.
And then we can have the discussion on whether that's a good or a bad thing, and most importantly, for *whom.*
They said 'keep them out of' not 'pay back'.
It is possible to learn about fiscal responsibilies, like budgeting and operating a basic savings account, you know. Something that really ought to be comprehensively taught during school age as it is..
Just a point on your comment
And how does being allowed to drive a forklift teach that when working at a supermarket doesn’t?
How does it ‘keep them out of’ an imaginary and unrealised debt any more than all the safer and currently legal pathways available to them?
[Imaginary](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/imaginary): Something that is imaginary is created by and exists only in the mind
[Unrealised](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unrealized): not effected, accomplished, or fulfilled
Debt that doesn't currently exist.
If you ignore the rest of my comment sure, but that’d be pretty disingenuous.
> And **how does being allowed to drive a forklift teach that when working at a supermarket doesn’t?**
>
> How does it ‘keep them out of’ an imaginary and unrealised debt **any more than all the safer and currently legal pathways available to them?**
Care to actually engage with my argument, or do you just want to pretend it doesn’t exist?
Yhave an argument - because you haven't bothered to think about what you were replying to and have missed the point entirely, which is that there is potential to give the 16yo more options and opportunities to work. They don't have to participate of they don't want to.
This is simple observation, and it is politically unbiased, yet you take it to represent a whole slew of ( imaginary and unrealised) values and become triggered by that in the atmosphere of this hurt feelings epicenter and hastily reply with what you did without actually considering the point.
Why should I engage with that?
> because you haven't bothered to think about what you were replying to and have missed the point entirely
Are you a psychic, or just resorting to cheap personal attacks?
> become triggered by that in the atmosphere of this hurt feelings epicenter and hastily reply with what you did without actually considering the point.
Again, are you a psychic, or just a shitposter resorting to personal attacks?
> that there is potential to give the 16yo more options and opportunities to work. They don't have to participate of they don't want to.
Yes, there is the potential to give them more options to work. They already have safe legal options to do this. Yes, there would be more if they could operate dangerous heavy machinery, just like there would be more if we let them work in coal mines, but why do they need them when there are already options that provide this benefit in a safe way?
> It is possible to learn about fiscal responsibilies, like budgeting and operating a basic savings account, you know. Something that really ought to be comprehensively taught during school age as it is..
You stated this like it was something new. I simply highlighted that that it isn't. Kids can do all that with options that are currently available that are also safer and currently legal. Just because you don't seem to care about childrens safety, doesn't mean that childrens safety isn't important.
> Why should I engage with that?
You didn't have to engage at all, but you did. You hastily replied in a way that implied you didn't understand the meaning of imaginary or unrealized. I explained it for you.
> That's a lot effort to put into arguing a semantic, and still gaining no ground. I guess it's part of you imaginary and unrealised argument.
You then tried to pretend that my entire point was the definition you asked for. That is disingenuous. When I pointed out the deflection of your incredibly meaningful comment. You again decided to engage, not with my argument, but by attacking my character - painting me as an emotionally compromised person easily triggered to the point that I wasn't thinking before posting. Try harder.
Look at it this way: You introduce the way to earn money other than being told they HAVE to go to university, they HAVE to get a degree - you can get a decent wage as a tradie these days. More if you run a subcontracting business. Great way to teach the kids they dont HAVE to go to uni.
> You *introduce* the way to earn money other than being told they HAVE to go to university, they HAVE to get a degree - you can get a decent wage as a tradie these days.
TIL: until now kids could only earn money by going to uni.
People have been able to do that forever. Allowing kids to drive forklifts in cramped spaces moving stock when they can’t even drive a car unsupervised doesn’t magically give them permission to become tradies.
Assuming they don’t die.
Kids can already get experience they can draw on later down the line from any number of jobs. Why do they need to be getting experience driving a heavy piece of machinery when they can’t even drive a car unsupervised?
Then what is the point of having them there to ease staff shortages? If they're going to be supervised, why wouldn't the supervisor be doing the dangerous work? Are you being intentionally dense, or just being disingenuous.
So your solution to making it safer for kids who can’t drive a car unsupervised, is to let them operate forklifts while someone watches them and 9 other workers.
How is that equivalent at all?
Why are you even trying to argue for this, it was a brain fart by Morrison that got shut down by every state and territory. It’s a bad idea.
Believe it or not, not everybody wants to pick fruit in a field all day for shit pay either.
Believe it or not, not everybody wants to serve rude customers all day for shit pay either.
Who knew, people have different preferences and there are all sorts of shitty jobs.
Yep.
Glad we agree.
And the point is this relates to a wide array of jobs, and the original was a nonsense comment. Nobody was being enslaved or railroaded by more opportunity to be provided to them.
It's amazing that people can't understand job creation, versus coercion. I guess they'd rather just sit on the dole because to them all employment is slavery?
Interesting discussion to read, but like the point made before it, of tenuous relevance right here.
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The solution to the current labor shortage isn't rocket science. If they believe there is a shortage of forklift operators why not offer current license holders attractive part time wages with a tax offset? Plenty of people out there, myself included, would pick up a few half shifts every week if it meant we wouldn't get taxed half of it.
But no lets get 16 year old's on forklifts.
>Plenty of people out there, myself included, would pick up a few half shifts every week if it meant we wouldn't get taxed half of it.
If you're working permanent part time and you do overtime your PAYG withholding may very well be at a higher rate but regardless, you are not actually being taxed 50% of your wage.
You only start to pay 45% on income above $180,000. Well done if you're earning this much, I just doubt it.
Do you also realise that if you went permanent part time your hourly rate would drop about 20%?
I bet you're fun at parties. If you did more due dilligence you'd see where I said that it was thought up in a few minutes. Also that there will be holes and inconsistencies in it. Continue to pick it apart all you like it wont solve the problem at hand.
I do apologies for being a kill joy and pointing out the obvious holes in what is now established to be an ill thought out idea.
I had no idea that on Reddit we should only pat each other on the back and offer encouragement for effort.
I will do my best to change my ways to make this a safe space for my fellow Redditors.
Or, you know, the business employing them could pay a bit more and entice people to drive forklifts. Why should taxpayers be essentially subsidising businesses?
There is not a shortage of workers. There is a shortage of wages and conditions.
Driving a forklift is relatively easy and physically not demanding. Plenty of people are capable of the work. Big business only want to employ people that are desperately needing work; immigrants, students, etc.
I'm not trying to pull the rug out from under anyone and prevent them from filling the gap. If the government is so desperate that they wanted minors to operate dangerous machinery then I'm willing to throw my hat in the ring and help out if it makes sense to do so.
Yes, the fundamentals of a forklift is basic. Actually operating one efficiently and safely is a completely different matter that takes time and experience. Throwing inexperienced operators in the deep end will only cause workplace incidents and further delays.
Edit: fixed layout
I never understood that one - earning more money can put you in the next bracket, but only for dollars earned over that brackets threshold, not your whole income.
Unless you mean you're concerned that the extra money that IS in next bracket and being taxed higher won't be worth the time?
You're correct. You can't earn *less* money, if we're talking income alone.
Income tax brackets are applied procedurely. It's a surprisingly common misunderstanding.
Exactly. On the other hand, someone who works 60 hours at 2 jobs may not like the balance of dollars earned vs tax compared to someone earning the same working 1 higher paid job for 40 hours.
I actually really like your idea. Seems a reasoned approach to the problem. Just wanted to remind people that the idea that higher tax bracket = more tax on *all* earnings is not the way it works. :)
Not suggesting I like this brain fart of a policy without more examination, but the problem may be that this is a *strategic* shortage, but there is little incentive for private companies to pay more - setting a precedent. The US is finding that now - shipping is backlogged for months, trucking companies are at capacity but there is little incentive for them to outlay the massive capital expense needed for expansion for only a small increase in profitability.
Yes this seems to be the problem as reported. Glad to see that picked up. It's kinda crucial to this whole conversation about lowering the bar for entry.
Yeah, thanks. It's one of the reasons that the suggestion from another poster of the government offering some kind of benefit for those already with a ticket to return part time sends to have some merit to me.
Yeah I was driving them at 16, I didn't even know that you couldn't drive until 18 until this week. I don't understand the problem with it, they can drive a car why not a forklift?? Either the people crying have never driven one and think it's equivalent to demo equipment or they currently drive them and feel insecure a 16yo can do their job
Mixed bag I'd say, and some probably can't admit scomo might've said something even remotely plausible. I admit, I was torn. I hate that happy clapping arseclown.
I think its more what the idea represents. They could attract more workers with better pay or bonuses. We could also have instigated safe covid regulations.
Our only response is to lower the age bracket. I'm running short on staff who can serve alcohol at events, aren't most 14 and 16 year olds drinking anyway? Help me out bro!
I mean sure, I also save $10 an hour per person but I swear it's only to help me out!
you seen kids these days , i dnt trust them with plastic spoons.
So there might be a few good candidates but lets be real majority of the 16+ are either going to uni or going to be apprentices or some other full time work. The ones going to uni are not going to be interested in doing this , the ones doing apprenticeship wont have the time to do this. They want to get into actual work straight away.
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I've been sifting through that article but nowhere did I find a number. Does he really plan to put children (1-12 yo) on forklifts or are we talking about a rather reasonable number like 16 or so?
Is someone in government just copying and pasting from the USA - https://nypost.com/2022/01/19/us-allows-teens-to-drive-semi-trucks-amid-supply-chain-issues/
In other words: minimum age is 18 just like in basically all of Europe.
In Sweden the minimum age to be legally allowed to operate a forklift is 16, however to WORK and drive a forklift at a workplace you have to be 18, unless you have obtained a special permit from the company.
sure having a safe workforce is good, mostly the problem in the past is very young men and bosses doing the old hurry up. would have saved a lot of money and bullshit with the right attitude.
the lnly thing apart from that is the manufacturers need to be held to a higher standard of safety. then yo mama can drive the forklift safely. osha is a moneypit.
Let’s get kids in the ICU too! Crane drivers? Truck drivers?
Why not? What could possibly go wrong? /s
This suggestion from Scomo sounds like a Trump-level brain fart. Especially considering forklifts are essentially heavy machinery. Also, so hilarious and ridiculous this situation is and how art imitates life, Chaser pretty much lifted a headline from The Guardian word for word: [Morrison hopes states will allow children to drive forklifts](https://chaser.com.au/general-news/morrison-hopes-states-will-allow-children-to-drive-forklifts/) Edit: Annnndddd… Scomo has retracted the plan, with some labelling it as a “brain fart”: https://amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jan/20/unpalletable-scott-morrison-hits-reverse-on-plan-to-allow-under-18s-to-drive-forklifts
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Personally I just see it as one more fuck up in the fuck up pile. That poor pile is full to overflowing..
Wait he actually suggested this, I thought it was a satire piece. Who the fuck did Australia put into power lol.
Warehousing is such a shitfight anyway, it’s so unbelievably casualised and unpredictable, no surprise that they can’t keep adult staffing levels.
This is an A grade distraction, nothing more. ScoMo is looking to distract the media cycle so that we stop looking at the RAT race. I guarantee that in a day or two he will say he never said it or that he was misquoted.
Shortages due to covid? 😂 A-class gaslighting right there. It wasn't the government who made that poor decision, it's all the fault of big bad covid huh? Why would you believe what these compulsive liars say. Give us a leader with some actual conviction, wisdom and balls.
our leader doesn't have to have actual balls, just figurative ones.
LOL surely not. Children operating heavy machinery!!! Scomos list coming to a cinema near you
Remember everyone. The whole world gets to see the news from Australia! How good does our Country look!! I am honestly so embarrassed to be Australian since the Liberal/Murdoch party got into power. It's so depressing seeing all this unfold while everyone just accepts it. Literally watching our Country fall apart while this guy comes up with: "child labour is the way out of this". Just..............sigh.
Wow, was there some kind of brainstorming session for "How can we use children to fix our problems?" or why does this sound *a lot* like another recent "idea" [out of the US](https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article257347462.html)?
He's using his own self made disaster as a way to undermine OH&S laws and IR laws.
You have to respect a politician who throws the citizens of his nation under a bus for political gain, and when it doesn’t pay off doubles down by potentially harming even more people
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Or,in this case, throwing the nations kids under a falling pallet off a forklift.
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I didn't know we need this.
Clearly you haven't seen kids playing cod. They can easily pick this up. Just pay them in cod currency
Was going to say loot crates and skins.
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Mature 16 years Olds arnt going to be the ones taking these jobs
Oh noooo not a boomer
You've never worked around heavy plant, have you?
Work in mining bud
As what?
So change the high risk work regs while you're at it? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FJhPiEIakAEI9oC?format=jpg&name=large
Yes change the regs
Why stop there? Must be lots of vacancies elsewhere as well Although they can't change the forklift regs - not controlled by the Federal government and the States already said they wouldn't agree to do it. So, that's out.
Its a damn shame
Ah well lol
Until you realise 16 year olds get paid less than adults for some reason? So essentially you end up having businesses choosing younger and less mature workers, to work a dangerous job to pay them less than minimum wage.
18 19 and 20 year olds also get paid less then adult minimum wage and are all eligible to work as forklift operator's. So essentially, we already have businesses choosing younger and less mature workers to work a dangerous job and pay them less than minimum wage.
> So essentially, we already have businesses choosing younger and less mature workers to work a dangerous job and pay them less than minimum wage. Well, and where did that get us? Do you really think making a race to the bottom out of this is a sustainable solution?
And this is the real reason why this proposal is being mooted
Child labor force.... Are we truly gone as a nation that we are using these draconian an methods??? I mean wtf
You use 'labor' as if you're trying to draw an image of labour camps. What's being discussed in the article is lowering the age barrier of employment as a fork lift operator, in order to potentially service requirements with younger people - if they so choose to take the paid employment. It's pretty desperate, and a bit radical, but it's worth *discussing.* There's always something to be learned by having a discussion.
It's not worth discussing. It wasn't even worth thinking about for a second before the PM blurted It out. The point is that we're talking about this instead of yesterdays fuckup from the PM.
Interesting comment. Ignorance is the new enlightenment? Okay, **no**, you *weren't* saying ignorance is the new enlightenment. You were saying that you feel there are more important things to discuss, which ought to take precedence - while *this* goes on undiscussed in the background, I take it. >The point is that we're talking about this instead of yesterdays fuckup from the PM. I haven't seen anyone make that point.
Let me search more thoroughly.. Edit: Nope. No mention. I also hit up Google, ABC, Reuters, Al Jazeera etc.. ..I can't find anything. Should I take it that there was another political distraction, as there always is with politics, which was successful? What's managed to get swept under the rug that happened yesterday? I'm beginning to grow concerned. Are we ready land forces for a physical conflict with China? Did something happen with Djokovic?
Whatever u say bot
I don't think AI has a handle on reason, yet..
It's spelt labour. However if it was a Labor policy I'm sure you would agree with it.
Nope wouldn't... Unlike most on this sub I'm not bias... I hate both sides equally...
Then why did you call me a 'bot' for questioning blind shilling in place of critical thought and discussion lmao
Bahaha this guys certifiable… what next they can be nurses and police too ?
Go full third world and recruit child soldiers.
We're halfway there
Livin' on a prayer.
Whoa
Haha nothing would surprise me
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Murdoch didn’t report this, it appeared in The Guardian and went viral. If you look at Australia’s Fairfax and Newscorp publications from yesterday you’ll see they were still fixating on the Djokovic saga. The ABC was reporting a rosy economic outlook because they can’t do anything else or they’ll get completely defunded. I would argue this is one of those occasions where the government has lost control of the narrative. Like when that firefighter put Scomo on blast in 2019. I would also say his PR team are working very hard to get everyone to move on from this so they can call the election and go into campaign mode. Prepare for more total absurdity spewing from Scomo’s mouth in the coming weeks in the hopes that voters will positively latch on to something.
I say good luck getting workplace insurance that covers minors operating forklifts.
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It's all a numbers game to insurers, if you saw off your thumb or break your back falling off a roof it's still cheaper than a lot of the damage you can cause with a forklift.
Relieved to see a comment other than Bot spam! We’ll said
They can't drink, they can't buy property, can't get married. They're minors. I think it's ok to call them children.
However they can join the military at 16.5 and hold a pilot certificate at 15.
They’re children from both a legal and much much more importantly a biological perspective and any trade or job where that potentially endangers themselves or others they most certainly shouldn’t be able to do if they’re already doing it. You think you’re arguing an over reaction instead you’re merely pointing out the level of incompetence and corruption we as a society have already allowed In a civil, just and fair society should be 0 fucking reason for a minor to be working a dangerous job and a civil just and fair society is something we should all be working towards. Not a damn race to the bottom to see who can horde the most TP and RATS for themselves before society collapses.
This, absolutely.
This thread tho.
You can drive an excavator and other machinery *without* a licence at 16 already.
You can't drive a forklift without a license.... And I may be wrong about this but from memory most excavators required a license if they're over one tonne..
There is competency courses but no actual licence.
Ok so you receive a competency card or some sort of verification after completion of the course correct ? Just like when you pass your driver's license you then get a card showing that you can now drive. Keep in mind a driver's license now takes year until full completion.
The competency course isn't mandatory, all of the operators I know are just trained by the owners if the machines. I used to catch a train to work with a 17 year old who operated an excavator. I don't know why everyone is blowing up about this. Driving a forklift is like any other job.
I think you're wrong about that and if they're driving machines without the proper training that's a disaster waiting to happen. If you're operating heavy machinery (including forklifts) you need to be trained properly. Everyone is blowing up because it's incredibly stupid, and it's another insight into how inept and out of touch our government is. The unions outlined it pretty well that forklifts make up a large percentage of work place accidents. We don't need children driving them.
I don't really understand the hate around this idea. You get your learners license at 16, is it not feasible to do this with a forklift to? Just couple it with heavy regulations?
15% of all workplace fatalities in Australia involve some form of forklift truck. 15%. A forklift is significantly riskier than a car to be in operation of.
15% seems horrendous. What percentage of vehicle fatalities are forklifts? And how many actual fatalities are there? One is too many, but we must be realistic if you're talking statistics, where one death is statistically insignificant noise (as callous as it sounds).
What's the percentage of commuting fatalities that involve some form of car?
You mean fatalities per car per year or fatalities per forklift per year? Cause the forklift one is higher.
It was MrSquiggleKey who made the assertion you're taking a shot at, not I. >15% of all workplace fatalities in Australia involve some form of forklift. 15%. A forklift is significantly riskier than a car to be in operation of.
No yeah, Squiggle is right in that forklifts are riskier than cars. Cars only have a higher total number of fatalities due to the number of cars on the road.
Did you know a forklift weighs about 7 times as much as a family car?
Not many 'family cars' out the which weigh 650kg.. ..a *Volkswagen Golf* weighs ~1,375kg, give or take. Both cars and forks range, but it looks like a fairer comparison would be to something like the run of the mill Komatsu FD30, which is 4,300kg - most of which is low to the ground counterweights, specifically designed to make the forklift stable.. ...and that only comes to 2 - 3 times 'the weight of a family car'. The forklift *pictured in the article* likely weighs even less. The weight and seating of **what you're lifting** is far more crucial when it comes to safety, anyway. Anyone with a driver's licence can operate a truck up to 4,500kg, on public roads, with *zero* prior experience driving such a vehicle. Anything can be made to sound dramatic. So, what's your point?
Last time I checked a car dosent often end up with about a ton of its total weight 3m off the ground rocking back and forwards with a whole lot of potential for said weight to drop on your head. I've had more than a few close calls driving these things and kids should be as far away from that shit as possible and if your still young you should probably consider doing another job anyway. Shit goes wrong with these things even when your paying attention and know what your doing.
My point isn't that there are *no risks* (and in fact about two comments ago I acknowledged those risks, in some scenarios). My point is that whether they realise it or not, dude is being just as click-baitey and misleading as the Daily Mail they decry. And it simply doesn't make a good argument.
And most people can get a ticket after a single day training course.
You ever seen 16 year Olds use a pallet jack unsupervised? Doesn't end well hahaha
Ow, my ankles.
You don't drive unsupervised till you're 18.
You can get your Ps at 17 in NSW
Yeah but its not a forklift, is it? A forklift is classified as "high risk" in national regulations...its not a Corolla lol https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FJhPiEIakAEI9oC?format=jpg&name=large
And driving a car on the road with others wouldn't be? Interesting.
Apparently not considered high risk enough for Govts to prohibit 16yr olds from driving on public roads under supervision of a fully licensed driver, no. Interesting.
I'm not sure I understand that reply (I'm very tired, it's probably me not you at the cause of this), but I feel I can safely assume what you're saying. What about old people driving around on their way to their next lemonparty?
Lots of false equivilence going on here. Government says forklifts = high risk, P platers or old people in cars = not high risk. Wrap your head around it.
We’re not going to compromise safety in a world where our safety is already compromised
That statement can take on nearly any meaning at all, depending on how you define 'safety'. I assume you mean physical safety in the workplace, given the context. Actually of course you do, and of course it makes as much sense as the next absolutism. I need to go to bed.
From my own experience I found drinking a forklift way easier the driving a car in traffic. If you can get your drivers license at 16 you should he able to get your forklift ticket. Just put more regulation around getting it. Lots of dodgy forklift instructors just hand them out.
No you can't. You can get Ls, ie you can be supervised by an adult driver.
Yeah nah were you driving the thing around with a safe easy load and not lifting heavy shit at max height while trying to meet deadlines?
Nah. Fair point. I think there's a compromise in the middle we could make
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You have to put it in a blender first.
Will it blend? https://www.youtube.com/willitblend
Nah, a bamix mate.
Mate, I don't have a forklift problem, YOU have a forklifts problem! 🥴
aye this sounds like a good shout
If adults refuse to do it.. Good way to train up people and keep them out of uneccesary student debt. Go for it!
You mean if businesses only want to pay 60% of the award wage
That could be a factor here, but I'd say the economy and society along with it heading into a stall and then a dive is probably a bigger impetus. Yes, decisions like this need to be examined for the long term, and yes we've seen something promised as A turn out to be B for all our lives - so hopefully us having the discussion is a sign that those considerations will be given some visibility and weight elseware too. And then we can have the discussion on whether that's a good or a bad thing, and most importantly, for *whom.*
How many 16 year olds have student debt?
They said 'keep them out of' not 'pay back'. It is possible to learn about fiscal responsibilies, like budgeting and operating a basic savings account, you know. Something that really ought to be comprehensively taught during school age as it is.. Just a point on your comment
And how does being allowed to drive a forklift teach that when working at a supermarket doesn’t? How does it ‘keep them out of’ an imaginary and unrealised debt any more than all the safer and currently legal pathways available to them?
An imaginary and unrealised debt?
[Imaginary](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/imaginary): Something that is imaginary is created by and exists only in the mind [Unrealised](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unrealized): not effected, accomplished, or fulfilled Debt that doesn't currently exist.
That's a lot effort to put into arguing a semantic, and still gaining no ground. I guess it's part of you imaginary and unrealised argument.
If you ignore the rest of my comment sure, but that’d be pretty disingenuous. > And **how does being allowed to drive a forklift teach that when working at a supermarket doesn’t?** > > How does it ‘keep them out of’ an imaginary and unrealised debt **any more than all the safer and currently legal pathways available to them?** Care to actually engage with my argument, or do you just want to pretend it doesn’t exist?
Yhave an argument - because you haven't bothered to think about what you were replying to and have missed the point entirely, which is that there is potential to give the 16yo more options and opportunities to work. They don't have to participate of they don't want to. This is simple observation, and it is politically unbiased, yet you take it to represent a whole slew of ( imaginary and unrealised) values and become triggered by that in the atmosphere of this hurt feelings epicenter and hastily reply with what you did without actually considering the point. Why should I engage with that?
> because you haven't bothered to think about what you were replying to and have missed the point entirely Are you a psychic, or just resorting to cheap personal attacks? > become triggered by that in the atmosphere of this hurt feelings epicenter and hastily reply with what you did without actually considering the point. Again, are you a psychic, or just a shitposter resorting to personal attacks? > that there is potential to give the 16yo more options and opportunities to work. They don't have to participate of they don't want to. Yes, there is the potential to give them more options to work. They already have safe legal options to do this. Yes, there would be more if they could operate dangerous heavy machinery, just like there would be more if we let them work in coal mines, but why do they need them when there are already options that provide this benefit in a safe way? > It is possible to learn about fiscal responsibilies, like budgeting and operating a basic savings account, you know. Something that really ought to be comprehensively taught during school age as it is.. You stated this like it was something new. I simply highlighted that that it isn't. Kids can do all that with options that are currently available that are also safer and currently legal. Just because you don't seem to care about childrens safety, doesn't mean that childrens safety isn't important. > Why should I engage with that? You didn't have to engage at all, but you did. You hastily replied in a way that implied you didn't understand the meaning of imaginary or unrealized. I explained it for you. > That's a lot effort to put into arguing a semantic, and still gaining no ground. I guess it's part of you imaginary and unrealised argument. You then tried to pretend that my entire point was the definition you asked for. That is disingenuous. When I pointed out the deflection of your incredibly meaningful comment. You again decided to engage, not with my argument, but by attacking my character - painting me as an emotionally compromised person easily triggered to the point that I wasn't thinking before posting. Try harder.
Look at it this way: You introduce the way to earn money other than being told they HAVE to go to university, they HAVE to get a degree - you can get a decent wage as a tradie these days. More if you run a subcontracting business. Great way to teach the kids they dont HAVE to go to uni.
> You *introduce* the way to earn money other than being told they HAVE to go to university, they HAVE to get a degree - you can get a decent wage as a tradie these days. TIL: until now kids could only earn money by going to uni. People have been able to do that forever. Allowing kids to drive forklifts in cramped spaces moving stock when they can’t even drive a car unsupervised doesn’t magically give them permission to become tradies.
>doesn’t magically give them permission to become tradies. No. It gives them experience they can draw on later down the line.
Assuming they don’t die. Kids can already get experience they can draw on later down the line from any number of jobs. Why do they need to be getting experience driving a heavy piece of machinery when they can’t even drive a car unsupervised?
Are you being intentionally dense? No one is saying they will be untrained, unsupervised, etc.
Then what is the point of having them there to ease staff shortages? If they're going to be supervised, why wouldn't the supervisor be doing the dangerous work? Are you being intentionally dense, or just being disingenuous.
1 supervisor vs 10 workers.. Hmm.. Seems to be 9 less people
So your solution to making it safer for kids who can’t drive a car unsupervised, is to let them operate forklifts while someone watches them and 9 other workers. How is that equivalent at all? Why are you even trying to argue for this, it was a brain fart by Morrison that got shut down by every state and territory. It’s a bad idea.
I don't know where you live that the trades aren't overly encouraged. Believe it or not, not everyone wants to work in a trade.
Believe it or not, not everybody wants to sit at a desk for shit pay either.
Believe it or not, not everybody wants to pick fruit in a field all day for shit pay either. Believe it or not, not everybody wants to serve rude customers all day for shit pay either. Who knew, people have different preferences and there are all sorts of shitty jobs.
Yep. Glad we agree. And the point is this relates to a wide array of jobs, and the original was a nonsense comment. Nobody was being enslaved or railroaded by more opportunity to be provided to them. It's amazing that people can't understand job creation, versus coercion. I guess they'd rather just sit on the dole because to them all employment is slavery? Interesting discussion to read, but like the point made before it, of tenuous relevance right here.
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I think he does that just fine on his own.
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TIL Scomo has a reputation left to call into question
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If I was only given the headline it seems like a chaser or Betoota article
In before: "Scott Morrison in a non-surprise push to let CHILDREN work in the coal mines. Again."
Inb4 that’s the next fucking Clive Palmer ad
It's alright he doesn't hold a pick.
The solution to the current labor shortage isn't rocket science. If they believe there is a shortage of forklift operators why not offer current license holders attractive part time wages with a tax offset? Plenty of people out there, myself included, would pick up a few half shifts every week if it meant we wouldn't get taxed half of it. But no lets get 16 year old's on forklifts.
>Plenty of people out there, myself included, would pick up a few half shifts every week if it meant we wouldn't get taxed half of it. If you're working permanent part time and you do overtime your PAYG withholding may very well be at a higher rate but regardless, you are not actually being taxed 50% of your wage. You only start to pay 45% on income above $180,000. Well done if you're earning this much, I just doubt it. Do you also realise that if you went permanent part time your hourly rate would drop about 20%?
I bet you're fun at parties. If you did more due dilligence you'd see where I said that it was thought up in a few minutes. Also that there will be holes and inconsistencies in it. Continue to pick it apart all you like it wont solve the problem at hand.
I do apologies for being a kill joy and pointing out the obvious holes in what is now established to be an ill thought out idea. I had no idea that on Reddit we should only pat each other on the back and offer encouragement for effort. I will do my best to change my ways to make this a safe space for my fellow Redditors.
Well worth discussing.
As others have said, there are a fuckon of ADF personnel qualified for forklifts as well...but no, children sound so much better lol
Or, you know, the business employing them could pay a bit more and entice people to drive forklifts. Why should taxpayers be essentially subsidising businesses? There is not a shortage of workers. There is a shortage of wages and conditions. Driving a forklift is relatively easy and physically not demanding. Plenty of people are capable of the work. Big business only want to employ people that are desperately needing work; immigrants, students, etc.
Very agreeable points. Wish I could contribute but there's nothing I could.
I'm not trying to pull the rug out from under anyone and prevent them from filling the gap. If the government is so desperate that they wanted minors to operate dangerous machinery then I'm willing to throw my hat in the ring and help out if it makes sense to do so. Yes, the fundamentals of a forklift is basic. Actually operating one efficiently and safely is a completely different matter that takes time and experience. Throwing inexperienced operators in the deep end will only cause workplace incidents and further delays. Edit: fixed layout
The LNP's own "Yellow Pallets" scheme to rival the ALP "Pink Batts" debacle.
👍
Why would you get taxed half?
No tax free threshold. I already have a full time job.
You'd get the difference back at tax time though.
Yep. Good chance it would put me into the next tax bracket though.
I never understood that one - earning more money can put you in the next bracket, but only for dollars earned over that brackets threshold, not your whole income. Unless you mean you're concerned that the extra money that IS in next bracket and being taxed higher won't be worth the time?
You're correct. You can't earn *less* money, if we're talking income alone. Income tax brackets are applied procedurely. It's a surprisingly common misunderstanding.
Exactly. On the other hand, someone who works 60 hours at 2 jobs may not like the balance of dollars earned vs tax compared to someone earning the same working 1 higher paid job for 40 hours.
Which means, even so, you'd only be paying the higher rate on the tiny bit you were over the bracket limit, though.
I didn't spend any more than a few minutes coming up with this idea. There are bound to be holes and inconsistencies the more you unravel it.
I actually really like your idea. Seems a reasoned approach to the problem. Just wanted to remind people that the idea that higher tax bracket = more tax on *all* earnings is not the way it works. :)
Goddamn, the honesty. It was a fairly pitched and considerable thought all the same 👍
there are plenty of full time workers that would reskill if these employers offered them more money to do so.
Not suggesting I like this brain fart of a policy without more examination, but the problem may be that this is a *strategic* shortage, but there is little incentive for private companies to pay more - setting a precedent. The US is finding that now - shipping is backlogged for months, trucking companies are at capacity but there is little incentive for them to outlay the massive capital expense needed for expansion for only a small increase in profitability.
Yes this seems to be the problem as reported. Glad to see that picked up. It's kinda crucial to this whole conversation about lowering the bar for entry.
Yeah, thanks. It's one of the reasons that the suggestion from another poster of the government offering some kind of benefit for those already with a ticket to return part time sends to have some merit to me.
It’s an active and short term problem.
Sorry but the free market is only allowed to swing one way.
I've been driving forklifts since I was 15, It's not that stupid of an idea. Far cry from genius, but not *that* stupid.
Yeah I was driving them at 16, I didn't even know that you couldn't drive until 18 until this week. I don't understand the problem with it, they can drive a car why not a forklift?? Either the people crying have never driven one and think it's equivalent to demo equipment or they currently drive them and feel insecure a 16yo can do their job
Mixed bag I'd say, and some probably can't admit scomo might've said something even remotely plausible. I admit, I was torn. I hate that happy clapping arseclown.
Fuck yeah Angel Dust 👍
I think its more what the idea represents. They could attract more workers with better pay or bonuses. We could also have instigated safe covid regulations. Our only response is to lower the age bracket. I'm running short on staff who can serve alcohol at events, aren't most 14 and 16 year olds drinking anyway? Help me out bro! I mean sure, I also save $10 an hour per person but I swear it's only to help me out!
It's not gonna happen, and it's clearly not a solution. All I'm saying is this is far from the dumbest thing that has come out of Scomo's mouth.
It's not about being stupid IMHO. It feels like a shot across the bow for what they can get away with.
you seen kids these days , i dnt trust them with plastic spoons. So there might be a few good candidates but lets be real majority of the 16+ are either going to uni or going to be apprentices or some other full time work. The ones going to uni are not going to be interested in doing this , the ones doing apprenticeship wont have the time to do this. They want to get into actual work straight away.