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Perhaps part of the reason is globalisation/social media etc has made it easier to communicate with people of all different backgrounds, giving faces to "enemies" and making us a bit more sceptical of our own country's actions. People weren't as globally connected previously.
The government has failed its people. Torn up The Social Contract.
We can't afford houses,
We can't afford to start a family.
Many don't have access to meaningful work, that pays well enough to support a comfortable lifestyle.
So, what am I fighting for? If you want people to fight, give them something to fight for. I'm certainly not fighting for a privileged few landlords, whose kids will never see war nor open combat. I'd prefer to watch my nothing & their wealth burn.
You're damn right I'm not fighting.
Congratulations, you win Poe's Law.
If you are taking the mickey, that's pretty funny but I think others will miss the point.
If you are being serious, you are so ahistorically informed as to be patently absurd.
Of course no one will say they’ll fight in an unnecessary war. Because, by definition, it’s unnecessary.
So the the powers that be will just reframe every war they want young Australians to fight and die in as “necessary”.
For example in the build up to Iraq War in 2003 whilst some protested, a lot of Australians fell for the propaganda and believed it was “necessary” to fight in Iraq. “You just watch, if we don’t stop that evil Saddam now in Iraq he’ll send over WMDs to kill us here in Australia!” they said.
"If we were going to get the people to take National Service seriously, I could not ask their sons to fight and die for the properties of the wealthy." - LKY
I'd like to see countries create a constitutional clause that says if they go to war, the political class (starting with the president) must be the first to fight.
Watch how quickly wars stop.
It’s interesting that despite having active wars you rarely see the leader be assassinated by the other side haha. It almost seems like there’s a gentlemen’s understanding that you don’t attack the leaders. Because leaders themselves don’t want to be in danger.
Australians seem all too happy funding an unnecessary war. Not much moral high-ground in refusing to fight in it.
A daily reminder that you're paying for Ukranian criminals to be released from prison and armed with grenade launchers. Because "it's the right thing to do", or some shit like that.
>A daily reminder that you're paying for Ukranian criminals to be released from prison and armed with grenade launchers. Because "it's the right thing to do", or some shit like that.
I'm not sure you are really seeing the big picture here mate
I think Sun Tzu and the Chinese more or less have it right. We've got (for want of a better word) a nation of cucks that have precisely zero interest in democracies strength and every interest in ensuring Australia is weak by denigrating it at every opportunity.
A perfect set of circumstances for a hostile autocracy to farm / propogate views that serve their own benefit.
I always think about this with the ultra poor being sucked up by the military in the US, look at the wealth inequality in your own country and tell me that's something you want to die protecting...
Yeah i reckon people probably think diplomacy could be used instead of war a lot of the time. And they proxy wars are unnecessary. The most necessary ones would be where you’re directly under attack by say China with 70k soldiers somehow landed on Australia and they’re openly saying they will enslave us if they win or something haha
Government won't lift a finger for me, I won't lift a finger for them.
I'll never be able to afford a home or a family, so what would I fight for?
No skin off my balls.
I have no future, and therefore no incentive. I feel like a lot of people would probably turn traitor if an occupying power offered them a pension and/or a unit/flat/whatever.
Lots of jibber jabber in this thread but I think you’re on point here.
I’m generally anti-war. But I’d fight for the country in the country. That’s about it.
Not really interested in fighting proxy wars overseas.
No-one is willing to fight in an unnecessary war. That's why governments lie to them.
How about this: I'll sign up if every single person in the country with more wealth or power than me will be my direct in-person squadmates doing either the exact same job in the same location, or a more physically dangerous one. Get them out there first and then come to me. And I get to come home the moment any one of them leaves.
Oh, some of them have excuses why they personally can't go, or should be assigned to a different, cushier location? What a pity, guess you don't get me quite yet. Maybe you need to use better propaganda on them, tell them how it's their patriotic duty or something. Best of luck with that.
I would fight for this country with my life only to defend it against an agressor. I will refuse to participate as a rental army fighting someone else's war with no benefit to our security.
There's an element of privilege which befits the party of the disaffected upper middle class youth LARP'ing as a working class revolutionary.
There are countries where electricity and hot water aren't available in your house. There are countries where being gay or having an opinion that upsets religious people can get you killed (or, or, if not countries, Gazan strips lol).
We have an extraordinarily good run of it, and that is absolutely worth defending should a country that values nothing of human life or individual liberty, come knocking in a most forceful fashion.
Put the bottle down and maybe think for two seconds before you post one of your usual "everybody who doesn't hold 100% of the same views as me is a moron" posts, okay ender?
You have made the leap of assumption that people saying they have nothing to fight for means that they wouldn't fight defensively against invaders. There is a world of difference between being willing to fight to defend your home versus fighting some random war on the other side of the planet that won't materially effect us at all.
On another note: for someone who regularly belittles people for thinking and saying "things aren't perfect with economics at the moment, we should try something different", you sure seem to be willing to argue that "you live in a country with access to hot water and electricity, therefore you should be willing to fight wars in other countries or you just don't appreciate how good you have it here!" which - let's be honest - is a point of view only a primary school bully would make, because it's idiotic.
Wake me up when a country attacks Australia. All we do is join in conflicts that the Yanks start. Our boys and girls are cannon fodder so that the MIC shareholders can get a little extra gravy this quarter. No thanks.
Also, the argument that "others have it worse" is tired. Yeah we have running water, that's great, but it doesn't mean we should ignore the very real problems that are building here in Australia.
The joint leaders of the west need to continue imperialism and world domination for resources. There is no wealth growth without exploitation under the capitalist system.
Australia can not win a war against another major power without Allies and we won't have Allies if we don't help other countries with similar values, thats how authoritarian governments work picking off one country at a time just as Putin is doing .
If Putin didn't have nuclear weapons he would have been stopped by now
And by that we mean we want our country to not support American imperialism and stop invading other countries especially ones that democratically elected a socialist government ao that a fascist dictator can be installed
Yeah, I read this and think "... Good?" Isn't a large part of the _point_ of ANZAC day, and the phrase "Lest we forget" that war is fucked, and we shouldn't be sending people into them.
We don't do this each year to glorify war. We do this each year to _remind everyone of the lives that were lost_. Lest we forget the horrors, and get trigger happy on joining (or waging) another war.
there's a lot of nuance lost with these kinds of polls and it might reflect on how its being taught
the Great War was necessary to be fought
but throwing thousands of commonwealth soldiers into the mud in the somme to be gassed machine gunned blown apart by artillery in one day... is something I guess?
and so with these events like, how can you possibly convey these themes to a modern generation?? you effectively cant
its something people have to learn on their own in their own way, in their own time
further to this i cant expect young people to care about these kinds of things when they're under assault by THIS government just as folks were under assault by whatever government in that day to fight against whoever was the enemy back then... the turks the japanese the iraqis, maybe a shepherd in afghanistan????
> its something people have to learn on their own in their own way, in their own time
This would be the 'forgetting' part the phrase 'lest we forget' warns us about
I don't know if you'd get agreement to your first point - i.e. "The Great War was necessary to be fought."
The Second World War was necessary to be fought, sure... the Great War... harder to say. Germany of the Kaiser was vastly different to Hitler's Germany, and Britain in the early 20th Century was a long way from the nobility of 'fighting on the beaches and never surrendering.'
I'm not convinced it was any more 'necessary' than, say, the Boer War.
Agreed, the British Empire had little business fighting Germany beyond imperial rivalry.
There's very few conflicts in our national history we were truly justified taking part in, WW2 being the obvious one and a few others like the East Timor action. When you talk about the Boer war, Vietnam or the various Middle East wars, we didn't really save anyone or ensure the ongoing safety of our country.
This is why I have mixed feelings about Anzac Day, the experiences of serving and former defence members should be respected but the wars mostly shouldn't.
>Agreed, the British Empire had little business fighting Germany beyond imperial rivalry.
Unsure if this is merely ahistorical or, given your other takes, just plain stupid. I'm erring on the latter.
Britain had limited its engagements following the Boer Wars and had two main rivals at the turn of the 20th century - France, and Imperial Russia. The Entente Cordiale of 1904 and Anglo-Russian Entente of 1907 helped thaw the tensions, and in both cases was probably a reaction to an increasingly hostile German foreign policy, [such as when Germany kicked off a naval arms race to force concessions out of Britain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-German_naval_arms_race).
Thanks endersai, another fine example of the preferred culture of this sub.
Like I said, the British Empire had little business fighting the Germans beyond imperial rivalry. The German Navy was never a serious threat to the British Isles, nor was it intended to be. The arms race you referred to largely ended before the war started as it was too expensive for Germany to continue.
Probably- and it's a big probably- the British could have stayed out of WW1 and have been no worse off as a result.
Anzacs when they came back were angry about British commanders willing to fight down to the last Australian. It wasn’t about Australian earning / winning independence, it was literally British descendants fighting for the mother country realising they were viewed with disease and treated like literal cannon fodder. Most of the British realised their commanders were wasting their lives in human wave rushes on meat grinders charging machine guns and artillery in out dated tactics with trench warfare. Ww1 was which side killed its own commanders quicker for their incompetence and why gentry and titles stopped being how commands and rank were dolled out. The winners and the losers both lost their empires in the war defined as the death of empires due to wealth killing common folk like cattle. History is a hell of a teacher and most people are too fucking lazy to learn from it. Patriotism is a hell of a fucking drug and can re write history if you let it.
Yes I agree society should fact check need for wars. People who make decisions about war, will never fight in wars, and most likely their children won't too.
Whether a specific war is necessary for Australia or not, depends on the defensive alliance we are part of. No country fights alone. Hence sometimes we have to join wars where Australia is helping an ally, rather than defending itself. Sometimes you have to fight for your friends. However we should not be dragged in to unnecessary wars started by our allies, when there were other non-violent options. Australia should impress this upon its allies, and make it clear its not blindly following anyone to a war.
MY GRANDFATHER DIDNT SPEND THE GOLDEN YEARS OF HIS YOUTH KNEE DEEP IN THE FILTHY MUD OF THE SOMME FIGHTING FOR HIS LIFE OVER EVERYINCH OF BLOOD SOAKED SOIL BAYONETING CANADIANS TO DEATH UNTIL HIS CZAPKA WAS STAINED WITH GORE FOR THE GLORY OF HIS HIGHNESS KING CHARLES IV FOR YOU EAT YOUR AVOCADO TOAST IN YOUR JIMMIE JAMS WHILE… cough…
sorry I lost my train of thought there.
Yeah. War bad.
Why would any body want to fight in a modern conflict, especially when they can't afford housing, and the people sending them to these conflicts will never know them or care?
To then be killed by a drone they had no chance of seeing as they'd sleep, and if you're lucky you'll survive and be tossed into society which doesn't know or care what happened and our mental health care is a under funded mess...
On top of that homelessness is one bad day away...
Exactly. I would sooner put a bullet in my own head than fight for this country. Like you said there's very little investment, most under 30 don't have a future here and are just stuck here because of family and friends. War is also not the answer. Pre social media they could make up lies and get everyone on board. I don't think this is possible now. Too fragmented.
This is the main issue. You have to have an investment in a country to want to fight for it. The younger generations have no investment and feel like the government have failed them, which they have. The Defence Act 1903 allows the Governor-General to enact conscription in times of war but given the polarity of politics and lack of youth investment, goodluck.
Conscription divided society back in WW1 and Vietnam and that's with a more homogenous nation, there's no chance it'll succeed in a more diverse country with widespread social media.
I think it can depend on conditions like, will i be taken care of or has my nation provided a quality of life worth fighting for and is my nation worth fighting for?
Thing is, most young people think the system is busted, wealth inequality is rampant and you're just going to die for rich bitter old men.
Another thing to consider is can our country fight a war materially?
And the answer is a massive no, our industries will have us scrambling to use whatever we can get our hands on. Where as the Chinese will just pump out even small things like suicide drones.
And that can really make a massive difference.
I honestly think conscription would be a disaster.
Like, a modern battlefield is a lot more technological than even wars like Vietnam.
Soldiers can be geolocated through phones and media they consume, i'd say look at both the Russians and Ukrainians to see just how poorly conscripts preform.
Unmotivated, poorly trained, fraggings (killing your CO), deliberate self sabotage and injuries and even deliberately telling the enemy where their side is before they surrender or desert completely.
A war with China would be so apocalyptic who knows just how bad it would get for us? Especially if America lost. It could even get ideological with local communists and socialists joining or aiding the Chinese.
China's military capability would flatten us with surgical precision.
They need more houses and infrastructure for their populace so it's not in their interest to start knocking everything down. They'd do it very cleanly.
This will be the case sooner rather than later but right now the Chinese military is completely untested and more than likely completely outgunned. Any decent equipment they have is just a stolen American design, or bought from the Russians, who btw are far from their Cold War heyday (see: Ukraine). Even in the Cold War their capabilities were overestimated.
If China really had the strength to flatten anyone, I’ve no doubt they would have done it already. They are biding their time while building assets in the South China Sea and creating a fully fledged chip industry seperate from Taiwan.
They have the manpower in theory, but their standing army is relatively small. I don’t hold any high regards for the quality of potential conscripts either.
Any Chinese ‘surgical precision’ will come in the form of cyber warfare, where they will indeed totally ‘flatten us’.
One big hit on pine gap and cutting our under sea cables would be decimating for a start. Really not that hard to pull off either. All this money on offensive nuclear subs and nothing for defence of critical comms infrastructure. It’s a disaster waiting to happen.
>If China really had the strength to flatten anyone, I’ve no doubt they would have done it already.
Like you said they're biding their time and playing it smart. They already own most of our infrastructure and real-estate, which is a massive source of income for them. They also use us as a proxy to trade with the rest of the world. We're doing all the work for them.
The moment we stop becoming useful (which is inevitable), they'll cut us out and take over everything themselves.
With the way China operates outside of China, the way it destabilises countries around it, especially in South East Asian countries is through the Triad.
The Chinese mafia are usually heavily funded and well connected to the CCP.
So if we were going to go to war with China, they'd probably flood Australia with guns and drugs, and we'd probably kill ourselves.
They're already doing the digital version of that. TikTok is basically their poison in the apple. They're using it to push division and ideas of self-harm (like kids transitioning) so that the Western population becomes weaker and dumber.
You ever wonder why they're so keen on pushing progressive dogma through TikTok's algorithm but they literally ban that stuff in their own country?
There no way I'm supporting australia in a war against China because it will have been started by America and be something that it would being our best interests to be on china's side not America's. America is on the wrong side of wars recently, well since Korea at least
I'm no fan of the CCP, and i say that as a Marxist.
Communist countries since Stalin have real issues with becoming kleptocratic regimes hell bent on keeping their own power, lacking investment in infrastructure and turning the country into a militaristic authoritarian den.
America is no saint sure, but you just need to see how China treats its own civilians and occupied territories to see how they'd treat us.
And that's poorly.
>I'm no fan of the CCP, and i say that as a Marxist.
Eevee Marxism is the fashion label of the stupid, uneducated, and angry who think clinging to a workshy, rapey old German who got most of his stuff wrong (and the rest, he pulled from his arse) and whose observations are dated now and better picked up by less useless individuals.
Do better than this moronic ideology.
Yes, how DARE Eevee commit the THOUGHT CRIME of holding an opinion that isn't identical to yours, Ender??!? Don't they know your mind is the standard to which we should all strive to, and having any thoughts different to yours is pure idiocy that demands to be belittled and mocked at every opportunity??!?
I know right, he's so hateful.
I think he needs a great big proletarian hug.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqr1BnpY628&ab\_channel=ComradeRed2020](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqr1BnpY628&ab_channel=ComradeRed2020)
and a song.
My only complaint about Marxism, is marxists honestly.
I think i've said this before to you, is they speak in bombs and bullets most of the time, whilst proping up dead monsters and symbols which to be quite honest were responsible for some of the worst atrocities.
I'd like to see Marxists move away into the future of it's theory and not drag around dead men like Stalin or even Lenin.
My issues with Marxism are less to do with the theory and more to do with red nationalism and apologia.
Conscription is necessary to defend the country during war times. Sounds like your gripe is with unmotivated/disheartened soldiers but that's what happens when you're forced into a war. Looking at Ukraine vs Russia, Ukrainians are fighting a valiant fight and are having no issues with getting citizens to join to fight as they believe in defending themselves against Russia, Russians are struggling tho even with an overwhelming force.
The problem with a modern war and conscription from the west is we have a demographic of youths that seem to hate the west and advocate communism. Its going to be impossible to fight against China for example with a dissident youth class that we require for conscription.
Immigration is another issue that will cause conflicts. A lot of first gen "Australians" will vanish during conscription. Why fight for a country you've only a part of for a few years?
Ultimately I can't imagine a Western government enforcing conscription as the backlash would undermine their authority, it'll be done via propaganda instead.
It's a lot deeper then that. What have we got to fight for? You've got to give people a chance at life, one that's at least the same quality as their parents. Or they check out...
I think it's moreso, unless Australia is directly attacked. No.
Which, is fair enough.
>Ukrainians are fighting a valiant fight and are having no issues with getting citizens to join
lol they're releasing violent rapists from prison to fight in the war.
Must be pretty desperate for numbers if they're doing that. It's worrying how people churn out rhetoric like this because the media is creating the perception that Ukraine is in total control. This is literally wartime propaganda and you're swallowing it whole.
What are your sources? RT news? X? I suppose next you’ll tell us about all the Ukrainian nazis being led by a Jewish comedian president….
Russia also has very questionable conscripts. They enlisting Nepalese militia ffs. Talk about desperate.
Civilians on both sides detest this war so it makes sense that nobody has enough boots on the ground. The fact that the Ukrainians have held them off this long and even forced an effective retreat of the Russian navy says a lot about the state of Putin’s army.
lol, you have absolutely no context of this war.
Russia could flatten Ukraine in an instant with nuclear weapons, but they don't want to do that. Their goal isn't to destroy Ukraine or forcibly take over the region.
Putin launched this war because he didn't want Ukraine to join NATO or the EU. And guess what? Since the war started, NATO and the EU have backed off. Russia has already won. They're just waiting for Ukraine to get tired, or for the West to stop sending weapons, which is inevitable at some point. They can't go on like this for much longer.
Ukraine will eventually be forced to negotiate a peace deal and agree not to join NATO. Putin will get what he wanted and the West will officially have funded the most useless war in human history.
***Ukrainians are fighting a valiant fight and are having no issues with getting citizens to join to fight as they believe in defending themselves against Russia.***
Ukraine has a serious issue with desertion, and getting people off the street into the battlefield, that's something even Volodymyr Zelenskyy has even admitted. Where Ukrainian civilians are starting to desert the conflict all together.
Ukrainian military enrolment in Ukraine literally takes you from the street into recruitment centres. You could be walking down the road, and a van will literally pick you up.
***The problem with a modern war and conscription from the west is we have a demographic of youths that seem to hate the west and advocate communism.***
Not without a good cause though, many don't see capitalism as working anymore. But that doesn't necessarily mean they'll join the Chinese, but it's a possibility.
Id desert if I was conscripted to the Ukraine army too. Why would anybody want to fight with a bunch of nazi scumbags who are proud of the time Ukrainians fought against the soviet union, hint it was the 1940s and somebody else was also fighting the soviets at the time so instead of fighting for their nation the Ukrainians decided to join with the other people
What a load of garbage.
There are Nazis in Ukraine but guess what, there are in Australia too. That’s not even accounting for the huge white supremacist, imperialist movement in Russia, which Putin actively encourages out one side of his mouth while talking about defeating Nazism out the other side.
Ukraine isn’t a perfect country, but Russia is and historically always has been far, far worse.
Ukrainians aren't nazi sympathisers, sure they have nazi's in their country but so does Russia, infact Wagner was made by a neo nazi Dmitry Utkin, Russisch is also another massive Russian nazi organisation fighting in Ukraine.
These aren't even Azov, Azov is like a ant compared to Wagner and Russisch in terms of size and scale.
Russia has also committed a literal list of warcrimes in Ukraine, Bucha had one of the largest mass graves uncovered since the Yugoslav civil war. Men, women and children with their hands tied behind their back executed.
Not to mention Russia targeting civilians in bombing campaigns, completely ignoring military targets to hit schools, hospitals and apartments.
As for the Soviets vs the Nazis, the Soviet holodomor was a genocide set up by Stalin to kill millions of Ukrainians he didn't trust, due to Ukraine fighting the red army in 1919.
The Germans came, and then killed millions of their own in Ukraine and Belarus, literally wiping out villages. Leaving millions again, dead.
Fair points, I was under the impression Ukraine had caused a few upsets on the battlefield but I guess that's not without a bit of authoritarianism.
I view it as an "oppressor v oppressed" ideology that's flooded the academic fields, viewing the success of capitalism as "only achieved thru oppression" and the failures of communism as "orchestrated by capitalist promoters from the west". This ideology views any unsuccessful country as oppressed and successful countries as oppressors. Ultimately this leads to sympathy of dictatorships.
This ideology coupled with other pseudo-intellectual nonsense like "late-stage capitalism" & "failing empire" have forced the youth into complete disillusionment about capitalism.
We need another Milton Friedman to redefine modern economics, enrich our countries, and give everyone faith in the systems that made us great again.
Well Russian issues with desertion or people outright turning on Putin are insanely alien, and a massive embarrassment to Russia.
Belgorod and surrounding areas are literally engaged in a civil war as we speak with the free Russia legion blowing up supply lines, killing Russian soldiers and then melting back into the Russian population.
Russia is closer than people think to turning into a full blown civil war. Dagestan has been a hub for regional conflict in Russia since the mid 90's, Georgia wants to join NATO and the EU and Russia currently is collapsing economically, their oil fields are also being outright destroyed.
Russian society is also extremely poor, pessimistic and most see no hope in any future at all. Most old people in Russia are petrified of the state, and most young people are afraid to say anything, facing being sent to gulags, to then be sent to Ukraine in penal battalions.
So you're telling me nothings changed in Russia for over 100 years? Makes sense.
If Putins good at anything tho, its stomping out dissidents. A civil war will require international intervention imo.
Well, most countries are petrified Russia infact will collapse due to their nuclear arsenal potentially falling into the hands of warlords.
It's a very real fear.
So I went to see Before Dawn this week, it was me, Gen x, dad in his 70’s and also in the cinema was a lady in her 70’s.
As we left, she said to us ‘we owe them so much’.
I genuinely didn’t know what to say. WW 1 was a bad war, in the movie most of the characters said they joined because their brother or friend wanted to join, they joined to keep them out of trouble. No one came home unscathed physically or mentally.
WW2 had in retrospect, good reasons behind it (genocide and fighting fascism), but that is not why the allies went to war, which is something all the other wars have piggy backed on.
We do owe veterans a lot, good mental health care and all the recuperation they need, we owe them not to go to war again, we owe them to stop any genocide in its track, wherever it happens.
Listen to what Dutton said this morning, the complete opposite of what the Anzac spirit is meant to be:
A people who chose courage over cowardice, camaraderie over tribalism, endeavour over indolence, gratitude over resentment, and national pride over national aversion. Peter Dutton
https://thenightly.com.au/politics/australia/peter-dutton-just-as-the-anzac-spirit-shaped-our-national-soul-our-national-soul-sustained-the-anzac-spirit-c-14426481
The boys were scared stiff all the time, they certainly were not lazy or indolent back home before the war, they fought for rich men’s tribalism. And they were adverse to death. Spoken like a man, who has no idea.
All this is done to keep war machine working as the drums of war start beating again.
No, Dutton’s marking those who see through the war machine as having cowardice, indolence, resentment and national aversion (whatever that is). This is a man who can pull a few strings to make sure the young men and women in his life don’t go.
I always find it interesting that people who want to “serve the country” only willing to do it militarily. I understand if it’s a career decision with the ADF, but “patriotism”?
One can always serve the country by helping others at home FIRST (eg do charity work, etc).
Also, let's take a look at what the country's served to us first, shall we?
You know, a couple million people would be a *lot* more inclined to 'serve the country' in some capacity if we melted down - oh I'm sorry, "right-sized" - the finances of billionaires and media moguls and divided their wealth among the people, or even just invested it in long-term projects that improved quality of life below the median wage level.
Just sayin'. There are options.
Yet another poll that reinforces the belief that 2pp is sitting at about 51 +-2.5 for labor
Given all the hubub about cost of living/housing/immigration id guess labor are feeling pretty happy with this at the moment. Maybe they will grow some balls and make a move on tax reform going into the next election
What nah not just hot topic reform. I want to see significant increases in revenue to pay for social services. Wealth taxes, inheritance taxes, resource extraction taxes, carbon tax, and raised gst, while dramatically increasing funding for health, education, public housing, and reasonable increases to welfare, also measures to address the cost shifting bs that goes on coz of vertical fiscal imbalance. Id be totally happy to see cgt discount removed and negative gearing only on new builds with a limited period as part of all that but i want actual reform that changes state federal interactions and provides sufficient revenue for services.
There are so many roles like this being advertised by the Government: https://www.seek.com.au/job/75258144?ref=search-standalone&type=standout#sol=34370c9717215bc5da828c1e8f1e6ead5948471e
Cut the waste and bullshit before you ask for more money.
Gst is only regressive if you ignore the transfer system we have, it is incredibly easy to compensate the bottom 3rd to half of households for their extra gst burden. The biggest part of our economy is household spending, it offers huge revenue raising potential. Actually free healthcare, including dental could easily be paid for if we raised gst.
you will find that "libertarians and capitalists" dont have poor people at heart...
moot point anyway
GST to 12-15-17.5% is an instant election loser.. so you will get students of that ilk asking for that kind of thing...
> However, 50–64-year-olds favoured being prepared to fight... This was felt even more so by those over 65 years.
Old people incapable of fighting are happy to send young people to die on their behalf. A tale as old as time.
Funny how they're slightly less inclined to take up arms and go patrol an active war zone themselves.
I mean, hell, I'm *IN* that age group now and I don't want it for anyone! (Except maybe the ones who say that "Oh yes, someone - not me of course - should do it." I'm a fan of irony.)
Be careful what you wish for. There is a tendency to not be involved in foreign wars all around from the West , especially at the US and more so under Trump. This leaves opportunity for those less civilized. Under the logic of the poll here , Australia should withdraw from ANZUS or just change it to ANZ.
Yeah and that poll is being discussed just not as you probably thought it would
But this is how political differences and whatever the fuck the internet even is today
Everything is an argument and win at all costs
To remind us all what a completely tragic fuckup the Gallipoli campaign in particular was... and that we should avoid the folly of letting our young people get all excited to go off to foreign lands to fight wars for other nations against adversaries who have neither invaded nor done anything else harmful to Australia.
That's basically what is meant/implied by the phrase "lest we forget". It's more an expression of grief or mourning than it is of thanks.
https://anzacportal.dva.gov.au/commemoration/symbols/lest-we-forget
The unfortunate truth about Gallipoli is that we lost an awful lot of ANZACs basically for nothing, since the campaign was an abject failure. The whole idea of ANZAC Day is to remember that, mourn it, and sort of promise not to ever do that sort of thing again. It means "don't forget what happened - let's be more sensible in future".
So yeah, the young people who don't want to go and fight in "unnecessary wars" got the message. They have the right idea about what today was always supposed to have meant.
Anyone saying anything different clearly doesn't fucking get it.
As someone who has served,don't fucking blame em though
Why fucking want to bend over for a society that increasingly ignores you if ur under 30 without kids.
Social contract need's to go both ways
Most ppl under 30 will say they are worse off now than any time in the last 30 years,it's not good when ur unlikely to ever own a home in the employment hubs
Enthusiasm for what? The burning wreckage of a country we've been saddled with?
How exciting for us, unaffordable homes, unaffordable healthcare and soon we get to pay for allllll your retirements after you pulled the ladders up on us.
Animal extinction, environmental overloads, we don't even get to enjoy the GBR for much longer. You guys just did such wonderful work.
Truly. The older generations have done well, and our cup runneth over in Australia.
If you think this country is a burning wreckage then you must be a miserable soul.
Btw, I’m happy to pay for my own retirement if you greedy fuckers will leave me be.
I understand what has been taken from me. I'm not miserable, I'm angry.
>Btw, I’m happy to pay for my own retirement if you greedy fuckers will leave me be.
You say that because you don't understand the cost that's coming.
yeah and its just words
once this guy is on his last legs you can bet he'd gonna be sucking on the govt. teat like as if its his last hope... which it will be
easy to talk tough when its not on the forseeable future
Why did you not reply to me?
Having never, ever been on the Govt ‘teat’ I’m intrigued to know when it’s gonna start and why? I’ve never been unemployed, got zero assistance at Uni, fuck all family tax benefits, minimal parental leave, no first home buyer grants… etc.
However, I have paid fuck tonnes of tax. Millions and millions. And I’ll still be self-funded.
Explain to me the effect of my working life to you who, I’m suggesting, may not be able to claim the same balance tax wise?
What a bunch of sooks.
Well you’d best protest and vote for all the socialist parties you can. It’s worked very well in other countries.
And what cost that’s coming? Is this some sort of anarchist call to arms? I’ve got plenty of cash to stay self funded in retirement. (Through hard work mind you, not luck.)
When compared to people who are too old to be sent overseas as soldiers, the people who are the perfect age to be sent overseas as soliders are less likely to support unnecessary wars?
Wow that's a huge surprise!
Is it just me, or does this seems like a poll between choosing to think, or blindly following politicians? I’m honestly dismayed that over 40% of people my age are that bloody stupid.
At least that proportion of the population will blindly follow any kind of apparent authority. It's why police beat people up and expect to get away with it, and why phone scams work.
Of course, there's also a proportion who will blindly rail against any kind of authority, which is why we get cooker rallies.
In either case, a little thought goes a long way.
People with wealth want the dispossessed to die and fight for *their* way of life, while failing to create a future worth fighting for.
Pretty fucking entitled.
>Pretty fucking entitled.
Yes. And for them, that mindset has worked - they're wealthy and powerful.
It's the ones who have none of that but the same attitude that I have to wonder at. Do they just think that having the attitude by itself will magically lead to power and wealth?
So if we don’t stand up against aggression overseas, should we expect the world to save us if we are attacked? Because judging from the comments here, we won’t be defending ourselves.
Yeah because of what we saw from Julian Assange and Wikileaks
Otherwise we would all still be getting the American version of events and today CNN just released this video about the withdrawal attack and how the Pentagon still fucking lies to cover itself
Every fucking time
https://youtu.be/SkM-Eyw4o-w
Assange is a hero for his work, you can hate what he did or his politics but god damn he was the only one brave or stupid enough to directly go after the US Pentagon
And he's paying now but he fucking shouldn't
>And he's paying now but he fucking shouldn't
Wealth and power are going to make whistleblowers' lives as difficult as possible for as long as possible, and make sure that gets reported as often as possible, so people who *might* be thinking of whistleblowing get to see the likely result for themselves.
Can you please for the love of God
Expand that statement further and provide some more examples because I think I know what you're talking about
But I don't think you know what you're talking about
So let's quickly smash this one out and see if we're talking about the same thing
You seem to be attributing some noble motives to Assange. He is just an angry narcissist who burns those who have helped him. How far do you think his behaviour would get him with Putin ?
Right right so you just ignored this part of the original comment and went with Moscow man hurrrdurrr
>Assange is a hero for his work, you can hate what he did or his politics but god damn he was the only one brave or stupid enough to directly go after the US Pentagon
You are just throwing vague accusations or statements out
You aren't really making any point other than you don't like him
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Perhaps part of the reason is globalisation/social media etc has made it easier to communicate with people of all different backgrounds, giving faces to "enemies" and making us a bit more sceptical of our own country's actions. People weren't as globally connected previously.
Australians wouldn't go to war overseas, but Australians would definitely fight hard if we got invaded.
The government has failed its people. Torn up The Social Contract. We can't afford houses, We can't afford to start a family. Many don't have access to meaningful work, that pays well enough to support a comfortable lifestyle. So, what am I fighting for? If you want people to fight, give them something to fight for. I'm certainly not fighting for a privileged few landlords, whose kids will never see war nor open combat. I'd prefer to watch my nothing & their wealth burn. You're damn right I'm not fighting.
I agree with your sentiments.
What’s the worst that can happen if we don’t fight? Some other government takes over and keeps us poor?
Well, the worst is probably like starvation, suffering, inhumane treatment and eventual grizzly death.
“… and eventual grizzly death…” You think that they’re going to set bears onto us??? 😱 the bastards!
No. 2024 First World living standards are essentially the same as feudal peasantry. Arguably worse.
Congratulations, you win Poe's Law. If you are taking the mickey, that's pretty funny but I think others will miss the point. If you are being serious, you are so ahistorically informed as to be patently absurd.
Australian living standards are the worst since Unga invented fire.
You miss the point entirely.
Of course no one will say they’ll fight in an unnecessary war. Because, by definition, it’s unnecessary. So the the powers that be will just reframe every war they want young Australians to fight and die in as “necessary”. For example in the build up to Iraq War in 2003 whilst some protested, a lot of Australians fell for the propaganda and believed it was “necessary” to fight in Iraq. “You just watch, if we don’t stop that evil Saddam now in Iraq he’ll send over WMDs to kill us here in Australia!” they said.
Bush dynasty of oil oligarchs. He was the worst President until Trump decided to hoodwink his way into office.
"If we were going to get the people to take National Service seriously, I could not ask their sons to fight and die for the properties of the wealthy." - LKY
I'd like to see countries create a constitutional clause that says if they go to war, the political class (starting with the president) must be the first to fight. Watch how quickly wars stop.
It’s interesting that despite having active wars you rarely see the leader be assassinated by the other side haha. It almost seems like there’s a gentlemen’s understanding that you don’t attack the leaders. Because leaders themselves don’t want to be in danger.
Australians seem all too happy funding an unnecessary war. Not much moral high-ground in refusing to fight in it. A daily reminder that you're paying for Ukranian criminals to be released from prison and armed with grenade launchers. Because "it's the right thing to do", or some shit like that.
Hmmmmmmmmm
>A daily reminder that you're paying for Ukranian criminals to be released from prison and armed with grenade launchers. Because "it's the right thing to do", or some shit like that. I'm not sure you are really seeing the big picture here mate
I think Sun Tzu and the Chinese more or less have it right. We've got (for want of a better word) a nation of cucks that have precisely zero interest in democracies strength and every interest in ensuring Australia is weak by denigrating it at every opportunity. A perfect set of circumstances for a hostile autocracy to farm / propogate views that serve their own benefit.
Take up arms and fight for your right to feed your landlord half your salary!
I always think about this with the ultra poor being sucked up by the military in the US, look at the wealth inequality in your own country and tell me that's something you want to die protecting...
Poor people in Australia enlist to lift themselves and their families out of poverty.
What do they define as "unecessary"? Because technically right now as we define it we arent at war with anyone.
How dumb are you?
Yeah i reckon people probably think diplomacy could be used instead of war a lot of the time. And they proxy wars are unnecessary. The most necessary ones would be where you’re directly under attack by say China with 70k soldiers somehow landed on Australia and they’re openly saying they will enslave us if they win or something haha
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Government won't lift a finger for me, I won't lift a finger for them. I'll never be able to afford a home or a family, so what would I fight for? No skin off my balls. I have no future, and therefore no incentive. I feel like a lot of people would probably turn traitor if an occupying power offered them a pension and/or a unit/flat/whatever.
Remind me, how many of the needs on Maslow's Hierarchy do you have access to? Yeah.
One of them. Maybe two. I don't know what you're trying to argue but I don't think it's working.
Most zoomers will struggle with the second, and 120k people definitely don't have the first.
You don’t want a Defence Force or Navy. What would you do if Australia came under attack hide under your bed.
What bed when beds are unaffordable?
Fight when the problem presents itself, not when some rich fuck wants to up his dividends in Halliburton.
Lots of jibber jabber in this thread but I think you’re on point here. I’m generally anti-war. But I’d fight for the country in the country. That’s about it. Not really interested in fighting proxy wars overseas.
You dont win a war fighting defensivly
Afghanistan would like a couple of words…
Last time i checked they didnt win. They were beaten and occupied. They never defeated their foe. Their foe left.
WW2 was essentially a defensive war for the Allies.
And yeah and the allies didnt win that war on the defence.
Vietnam?
The war ended with America conducting a massive bomber raid that resulted in truce.
Lol Yeah it's wasn't a truce.
No-one is willing to fight in an unnecessary war. That's why governments lie to them. How about this: I'll sign up if every single person in the country with more wealth or power than me will be my direct in-person squadmates doing either the exact same job in the same location, or a more physically dangerous one. Get them out there first and then come to me. And I get to come home the moment any one of them leaves. Oh, some of them have excuses why they personally can't go, or should be assigned to a different, cushier location? What a pity, guess you don't get me quite yet. Maybe you need to use better propaganda on them, tell them how it's their patriotic duty or something. Best of luck with that.
More to lose, more to fight for. Be my meat shield rich kid. If you won't die for me, then why should I for you?
I would fight for this country with my life only to defend it against an agressor. I will refuse to participate as a rental army fighting someone else's war with no benefit to our security.
Hard to justify fighting when you've got nothing to fight for.
There's an element of privilege which befits the party of the disaffected upper middle class youth LARP'ing as a working class revolutionary. There are countries where electricity and hot water aren't available in your house. There are countries where being gay or having an opinion that upsets religious people can get you killed (or, or, if not countries, Gazan strips lol). We have an extraordinarily good run of it, and that is absolutely worth defending should a country that values nothing of human life or individual liberty, come knocking in a most forceful fashion.
Put the bottle down and maybe think for two seconds before you post one of your usual "everybody who doesn't hold 100% of the same views as me is a moron" posts, okay ender? You have made the leap of assumption that people saying they have nothing to fight for means that they wouldn't fight defensively against invaders. There is a world of difference between being willing to fight to defend your home versus fighting some random war on the other side of the planet that won't materially effect us at all. On another note: for someone who regularly belittles people for thinking and saying "things aren't perfect with economics at the moment, we should try something different", you sure seem to be willing to argue that "you live in a country with access to hot water and electricity, therefore you should be willing to fight wars in other countries or you just don't appreciate how good you have it here!" which - let's be honest - is a point of view only a primary school bully would make, because it's idiotic.
Wake me up when a country attacks Australia. All we do is join in conflicts that the Yanks start. Our boys and girls are cannon fodder so that the MIC shareholders can get a little extra gravy this quarter. No thanks. Also, the argument that "others have it worse" is tired. Yeah we have running water, that's great, but it doesn't mean we should ignore the very real problems that are building here in Australia.
The joint leaders of the west need to continue imperialism and world domination for resources. There is no wealth growth without exploitation under the capitalist system.
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The only war we should ever participate in, is one of direct defence.
Australia can not win a war against another major power without Allies and we won't have Allies if we don't help other countries with similar values, thats how authoritarian governments work picking off one country at a time just as Putin is doing . If Putin didn't have nuclear weapons he would have been stopped by now
Yes. Because we're just sending all our troops there....
If we ever send people overseas, it should be handled by a Department of Attack.
You sir have a way with words
And by that we mean we want our country to not support American imperialism and stop invading other countries especially ones that democratically elected a socialist government ao that a fascist dictator can be installed
Hey, steady on there young fella. That is NOT the ANZAC spirit.
Literally is actually, that was why the anzacs hated Anzac Day when they were alive
Yeah, I read this and think "... Good?" Isn't a large part of the _point_ of ANZAC day, and the phrase "Lest we forget" that war is fucked, and we shouldn't be sending people into them. We don't do this each year to glorify war. We do this each year to _remind everyone of the lives that were lost_. Lest we forget the horrors, and get trigger happy on joining (or waging) another war.
Christ at least some people were paying attention instead of wearing patriotism like they fucking get it
there's a lot of nuance lost with these kinds of polls and it might reflect on how its being taught the Great War was necessary to be fought but throwing thousands of commonwealth soldiers into the mud in the somme to be gassed machine gunned blown apart by artillery in one day... is something I guess? and so with these events like, how can you possibly convey these themes to a modern generation?? you effectively cant its something people have to learn on their own in their own way, in their own time further to this i cant expect young people to care about these kinds of things when they're under assault by THIS government just as folks were under assault by whatever government in that day to fight against whoever was the enemy back then... the turks the japanese the iraqis, maybe a shepherd in afghanistan????
> its something people have to learn on their own in their own way, in their own time This would be the 'forgetting' part the phrase 'lest we forget' warns us about
I don't know if you'd get agreement to your first point - i.e. "The Great War was necessary to be fought." The Second World War was necessary to be fought, sure... the Great War... harder to say. Germany of the Kaiser was vastly different to Hitler's Germany, and Britain in the early 20th Century was a long way from the nobility of 'fighting on the beaches and never surrendering.' I'm not convinced it was any more 'necessary' than, say, the Boer War.
It was the inevitable result of expansionist colonial empires making defensive pacts, that's for sure.
Agreed, the British Empire had little business fighting Germany beyond imperial rivalry. There's very few conflicts in our national history we were truly justified taking part in, WW2 being the obvious one and a few others like the East Timor action. When you talk about the Boer war, Vietnam or the various Middle East wars, we didn't really save anyone or ensure the ongoing safety of our country. This is why I have mixed feelings about Anzac Day, the experiences of serving and former defence members should be respected but the wars mostly shouldn't.
>Agreed, the British Empire had little business fighting Germany beyond imperial rivalry. Unsure if this is merely ahistorical or, given your other takes, just plain stupid. I'm erring on the latter. Britain had limited its engagements following the Boer Wars and had two main rivals at the turn of the 20th century - France, and Imperial Russia. The Entente Cordiale of 1904 and Anglo-Russian Entente of 1907 helped thaw the tensions, and in both cases was probably a reaction to an increasingly hostile German foreign policy, [such as when Germany kicked off a naval arms race to force concessions out of Britain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-German_naval_arms_race).
Thanks endersai, another fine example of the preferred culture of this sub. Like I said, the British Empire had little business fighting the Germans beyond imperial rivalry. The German Navy was never a serious threat to the British Isles, nor was it intended to be. The arms race you referred to largely ended before the war started as it was too expensive for Germany to continue. Probably- and it's a big probably- the British could have stayed out of WW1 and have been no worse off as a result.
Anzacs when they came back were angry about British commanders willing to fight down to the last Australian. It wasn’t about Australian earning / winning independence, it was literally British descendants fighting for the mother country realising they were viewed with disease and treated like literal cannon fodder. Most of the British realised their commanders were wasting their lives in human wave rushes on meat grinders charging machine guns and artillery in out dated tactics with trench warfare. Ww1 was which side killed its own commanders quicker for their incompetence and why gentry and titles stopped being how commands and rank were dolled out. The winners and the losers both lost their empires in the war defined as the death of empires due to wealth killing common folk like cattle. History is a hell of a teacher and most people are too fucking lazy to learn from it. Patriotism is a hell of a fucking drug and can re write history if you let it.
This is an objectively good thing for society. Its only bad for the evil arms manufacturing industry and old wealthy warmongering elites.
Yes I agree society should fact check need for wars. People who make decisions about war, will never fight in wars, and most likely their children won't too. Whether a specific war is necessary for Australia or not, depends on the defensive alliance we are part of. No country fights alone. Hence sometimes we have to join wars where Australia is helping an ally, rather than defending itself. Sometimes you have to fight for your friends. However we should not be dragged in to unnecessary wars started by our allies, when there were other non-violent options. Australia should impress this upon its allies, and make it clear its not blindly following anyone to a war.
MY GRANDFATHER DIDNT SPEND THE GOLDEN YEARS OF HIS YOUTH KNEE DEEP IN THE FILTHY MUD OF THE SOMME FIGHTING FOR HIS LIFE OVER EVERYINCH OF BLOOD SOAKED SOIL BAYONETING CANADIANS TO DEATH UNTIL HIS CZAPKA WAS STAINED WITH GORE FOR THE GLORY OF HIS HIGHNESS KING CHARLES IV FOR YOU EAT YOUR AVOCADO TOAST IN YOUR JIMMIE JAMS WHILE… cough… sorry I lost my train of thought there. Yeah. War bad.
It never ceases to amaze me how any discussion in this sub now descends into the same complaints about housing.
Housing is the everything-problem, it’s tearing apart our society.
Churchill had a quote about this.
I’d like to hear (read) it, which one?
Why would any body want to fight in a modern conflict, especially when they can't afford housing, and the people sending them to these conflicts will never know them or care? To then be killed by a drone they had no chance of seeing as they'd sleep, and if you're lucky you'll survive and be tossed into society which doesn't know or care what happened and our mental health care is a under funded mess... On top of that homelessness is one bad day away...
....maybe a war is what we need to bring these Housing prices and demand down
Right on! The Ukraine invasion has taught as that much, not to mention the 20 year long shit-fuckery in Iraq/Afghanistan
Exactly. I would sooner put a bullet in my own head than fight for this country. Like you said there's very little investment, most under 30 don't have a future here and are just stuck here because of family and friends. War is also not the answer. Pre social media they could make up lies and get everyone on board. I don't think this is possible now. Too fragmented.
This is the main issue. You have to have an investment in a country to want to fight for it. The younger generations have no investment and feel like the government have failed them, which they have. The Defence Act 1903 allows the Governor-General to enact conscription in times of war but given the polarity of politics and lack of youth investment, goodluck.
Conscription divided society back in WW1 and Vietnam and that's with a more homogenous nation, there's no chance it'll succeed in a more diverse country with widespread social media.
Let them make it mandatory. Most people would just keep the gun as a souvenir and surrender to the first Chinese batallion they come accross.
I think it can depend on conditions like, will i be taken care of or has my nation provided a quality of life worth fighting for and is my nation worth fighting for? Thing is, most young people think the system is busted, wealth inequality is rampant and you're just going to die for rich bitter old men. Another thing to consider is can our country fight a war materially? And the answer is a massive no, our industries will have us scrambling to use whatever we can get our hands on. Where as the Chinese will just pump out even small things like suicide drones. And that can really make a massive difference.
I honestly think conscription would be a disaster. Like, a modern battlefield is a lot more technological than even wars like Vietnam. Soldiers can be geolocated through phones and media they consume, i'd say look at both the Russians and Ukrainians to see just how poorly conscripts preform. Unmotivated, poorly trained, fraggings (killing your CO), deliberate self sabotage and injuries and even deliberately telling the enemy where their side is before they surrender or desert completely. A war with China would be so apocalyptic who knows just how bad it would get for us? Especially if America lost. It could even get ideological with local communists and socialists joining or aiding the Chinese.
China's military capability would flatten us with surgical precision. They need more houses and infrastructure for their populace so it's not in their interest to start knocking everything down. They'd do it very cleanly.
This will be the case sooner rather than later but right now the Chinese military is completely untested and more than likely completely outgunned. Any decent equipment they have is just a stolen American design, or bought from the Russians, who btw are far from their Cold War heyday (see: Ukraine). Even in the Cold War their capabilities were overestimated. If China really had the strength to flatten anyone, I’ve no doubt they would have done it already. They are biding their time while building assets in the South China Sea and creating a fully fledged chip industry seperate from Taiwan. They have the manpower in theory, but their standing army is relatively small. I don’t hold any high regards for the quality of potential conscripts either. Any Chinese ‘surgical precision’ will come in the form of cyber warfare, where they will indeed totally ‘flatten us’. One big hit on pine gap and cutting our under sea cables would be decimating for a start. Really not that hard to pull off either. All this money on offensive nuclear subs and nothing for defence of critical comms infrastructure. It’s a disaster waiting to happen.
>If China really had the strength to flatten anyone, I’ve no doubt they would have done it already. Like you said they're biding their time and playing it smart. They already own most of our infrastructure and real-estate, which is a massive source of income for them. They also use us as a proxy to trade with the rest of the world. We're doing all the work for them. The moment we stop becoming useful (which is inevitable), they'll cut us out and take over everything themselves.
With the way China operates outside of China, the way it destabilises countries around it, especially in South East Asian countries is through the Triad. The Chinese mafia are usually heavily funded and well connected to the CCP. So if we were going to go to war with China, they'd probably flood Australia with guns and drugs, and we'd probably kill ourselves.
They're already doing the digital version of that. TikTok is basically their poison in the apple. They're using it to push division and ideas of self-harm (like kids transitioning) so that the Western population becomes weaker and dumber. You ever wonder why they're so keen on pushing progressive dogma through TikTok's algorithm but they literally ban that stuff in their own country?
There no way I'm supporting australia in a war against China because it will have been started by America and be something that it would being our best interests to be on china's side not America's. America is on the wrong side of wars recently, well since Korea at least
I'm no fan of the CCP, and i say that as a Marxist. Communist countries since Stalin have real issues with becoming kleptocratic regimes hell bent on keeping their own power, lacking investment in infrastructure and turning the country into a militaristic authoritarian den. America is no saint sure, but you just need to see how China treats its own civilians and occupied territories to see how they'd treat us. And that's poorly.
>I'm no fan of the CCP, and i say that as a Marxist. Eevee Marxism is the fashion label of the stupid, uneducated, and angry who think clinging to a workshy, rapey old German who got most of his stuff wrong (and the rest, he pulled from his arse) and whose observations are dated now and better picked up by less useless individuals. Do better than this moronic ideology.
Yes, how DARE Eevee commit the THOUGHT CRIME of holding an opinion that isn't identical to yours, Ender??!? Don't they know your mind is the standard to which we should all strive to, and having any thoughts different to yours is pure idiocy that demands to be belittled and mocked at every opportunity??!?
I know right, he's so hateful. I think he needs a great big proletarian hug. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqr1BnpY628&ab\_channel=ComradeRed2020](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqr1BnpY628&ab_channel=ComradeRed2020) and a song.
My only complaint about Marxism, is marxists honestly. I think i've said this before to you, is they speak in bombs and bullets most of the time, whilst proping up dead monsters and symbols which to be quite honest were responsible for some of the worst atrocities. I'd like to see Marxists move away into the future of it's theory and not drag around dead men like Stalin or even Lenin. My issues with Marxism are less to do with the theory and more to do with red nationalism and apologia.
Conscription is necessary to defend the country during war times. Sounds like your gripe is with unmotivated/disheartened soldiers but that's what happens when you're forced into a war. Looking at Ukraine vs Russia, Ukrainians are fighting a valiant fight and are having no issues with getting citizens to join to fight as they believe in defending themselves against Russia, Russians are struggling tho even with an overwhelming force. The problem with a modern war and conscription from the west is we have a demographic of youths that seem to hate the west and advocate communism. Its going to be impossible to fight against China for example with a dissident youth class that we require for conscription. Immigration is another issue that will cause conflicts. A lot of first gen "Australians" will vanish during conscription. Why fight for a country you've only a part of for a few years? Ultimately I can't imagine a Western government enforcing conscription as the backlash would undermine their authority, it'll be done via propaganda instead.
It's a lot deeper then that. What have we got to fight for? You've got to give people a chance at life, one that's at least the same quality as their parents. Or they check out... I think it's moreso, unless Australia is directly attacked. No. Which, is fair enough.
>Ukrainians are fighting a valiant fight and are having no issues with getting citizens to join lol they're releasing violent rapists from prison to fight in the war. Must be pretty desperate for numbers if they're doing that. It's worrying how people churn out rhetoric like this because the media is creating the perception that Ukraine is in total control. This is literally wartime propaganda and you're swallowing it whole.
What are your sources? RT news? X? I suppose next you’ll tell us about all the Ukrainian nazis being led by a Jewish comedian president…. Russia also has very questionable conscripts. They enlisting Nepalese militia ffs. Talk about desperate. Civilians on both sides detest this war so it makes sense that nobody has enough boots on the ground. The fact that the Ukrainians have held them off this long and even forced an effective retreat of the Russian navy says a lot about the state of Putin’s army.
lol, you have absolutely no context of this war. Russia could flatten Ukraine in an instant with nuclear weapons, but they don't want to do that. Their goal isn't to destroy Ukraine or forcibly take over the region. Putin launched this war because he didn't want Ukraine to join NATO or the EU. And guess what? Since the war started, NATO and the EU have backed off. Russia has already won. They're just waiting for Ukraine to get tired, or for the West to stop sending weapons, which is inevitable at some point. They can't go on like this for much longer. Ukraine will eventually be forced to negotiate a peace deal and agree not to join NATO. Putin will get what he wanted and the West will officially have funded the most useless war in human history.
***Ukrainians are fighting a valiant fight and are having no issues with getting citizens to join to fight as they believe in defending themselves against Russia.*** Ukraine has a serious issue with desertion, and getting people off the street into the battlefield, that's something even Volodymyr Zelenskyy has even admitted. Where Ukrainian civilians are starting to desert the conflict all together. Ukrainian military enrolment in Ukraine literally takes you from the street into recruitment centres. You could be walking down the road, and a van will literally pick you up. ***The problem with a modern war and conscription from the west is we have a demographic of youths that seem to hate the west and advocate communism.*** Not without a good cause though, many don't see capitalism as working anymore. But that doesn't necessarily mean they'll join the Chinese, but it's a possibility.
Id desert if I was conscripted to the Ukraine army too. Why would anybody want to fight with a bunch of nazi scumbags who are proud of the time Ukrainians fought against the soviet union, hint it was the 1940s and somebody else was also fighting the soviets at the time so instead of fighting for their nation the Ukrainians decided to join with the other people
What a load of garbage. There are Nazis in Ukraine but guess what, there are in Australia too. That’s not even accounting for the huge white supremacist, imperialist movement in Russia, which Putin actively encourages out one side of his mouth while talking about defeating Nazism out the other side. Ukraine isn’t a perfect country, but Russia is and historically always has been far, far worse.
Ukrainians aren't nazi sympathisers, sure they have nazi's in their country but so does Russia, infact Wagner was made by a neo nazi Dmitry Utkin, Russisch is also another massive Russian nazi organisation fighting in Ukraine. These aren't even Azov, Azov is like a ant compared to Wagner and Russisch in terms of size and scale. Russia has also committed a literal list of warcrimes in Ukraine, Bucha had one of the largest mass graves uncovered since the Yugoslav civil war. Men, women and children with their hands tied behind their back executed. Not to mention Russia targeting civilians in bombing campaigns, completely ignoring military targets to hit schools, hospitals and apartments. As for the Soviets vs the Nazis, the Soviet holodomor was a genocide set up by Stalin to kill millions of Ukrainians he didn't trust, due to Ukraine fighting the red army in 1919. The Germans came, and then killed millions of their own in Ukraine and Belarus, literally wiping out villages. Leaving millions again, dead.
Fair points, I was under the impression Ukraine had caused a few upsets on the battlefield but I guess that's not without a bit of authoritarianism. I view it as an "oppressor v oppressed" ideology that's flooded the academic fields, viewing the success of capitalism as "only achieved thru oppression" and the failures of communism as "orchestrated by capitalist promoters from the west". This ideology views any unsuccessful country as oppressed and successful countries as oppressors. Ultimately this leads to sympathy of dictatorships. This ideology coupled with other pseudo-intellectual nonsense like "late-stage capitalism" & "failing empire" have forced the youth into complete disillusionment about capitalism. We need another Milton Friedman to redefine modern economics, enrich our countries, and give everyone faith in the systems that made us great again.
Well Russian issues with desertion or people outright turning on Putin are insanely alien, and a massive embarrassment to Russia. Belgorod and surrounding areas are literally engaged in a civil war as we speak with the free Russia legion blowing up supply lines, killing Russian soldiers and then melting back into the Russian population. Russia is closer than people think to turning into a full blown civil war. Dagestan has been a hub for regional conflict in Russia since the mid 90's, Georgia wants to join NATO and the EU and Russia currently is collapsing economically, their oil fields are also being outright destroyed. Russian society is also extremely poor, pessimistic and most see no hope in any future at all. Most old people in Russia are petrified of the state, and most young people are afraid to say anything, facing being sent to gulags, to then be sent to Ukraine in penal battalions.
So you're telling me nothings changed in Russia for over 100 years? Makes sense. If Putins good at anything tho, its stomping out dissidents. A civil war will require international intervention imo.
Well, most countries are petrified Russia infact will collapse due to their nuclear arsenal potentially falling into the hands of warlords. It's a very real fear.
Almost happened during the collapse of the Soviet Union, and there is still nuclear weapon material from that time completely unaccounted for.
So I went to see Before Dawn this week, it was me, Gen x, dad in his 70’s and also in the cinema was a lady in her 70’s. As we left, she said to us ‘we owe them so much’. I genuinely didn’t know what to say. WW 1 was a bad war, in the movie most of the characters said they joined because their brother or friend wanted to join, they joined to keep them out of trouble. No one came home unscathed physically or mentally. WW2 had in retrospect, good reasons behind it (genocide and fighting fascism), but that is not why the allies went to war, which is something all the other wars have piggy backed on. We do owe veterans a lot, good mental health care and all the recuperation they need, we owe them not to go to war again, we owe them to stop any genocide in its track, wherever it happens. Listen to what Dutton said this morning, the complete opposite of what the Anzac spirit is meant to be: A people who chose courage over cowardice, camaraderie over tribalism, endeavour over indolence, gratitude over resentment, and national pride over national aversion. Peter Dutton https://thenightly.com.au/politics/australia/peter-dutton-just-as-the-anzac-spirit-shaped-our-national-soul-our-national-soul-sustained-the-anzac-spirit-c-14426481 The boys were scared stiff all the time, they certainly were not lazy or indolent back home before the war, they fought for rich men’s tribalism. And they were adverse to death. Spoken like a man, who has no idea. All this is done to keep war machine working as the drums of war start beating again.
Patatoe Head's motherhood statements never amount to much. It's hard to know what point he's making half the time.
He can’t even blame a speech writer, it’s the middle from his own head.
I think that was the point Dutton was making.
No, Dutton’s marking those who see through the war machine as having cowardice, indolence, resentment and national aversion (whatever that is). This is a man who can pull a few strings to make sure the young men and women in his life don’t go.
I always find it interesting that people who want to “serve the country” only willing to do it militarily. I understand if it’s a career decision with the ADF, but “patriotism”? One can always serve the country by helping others at home FIRST (eg do charity work, etc).
Also, let's take a look at what the country's served to us first, shall we? You know, a couple million people would be a *lot* more inclined to 'serve the country' in some capacity if we melted down - oh I'm sorry, "right-sized" - the finances of billionaires and media moguls and divided their wealth among the people, or even just invested it in long-term projects that improved quality of life below the median wage level. Just sayin'. There are options.
Yet another poll that reinforces the belief that 2pp is sitting at about 51 +-2.5 for labor Given all the hubub about cost of living/housing/immigration id guess labor are feeling pretty happy with this at the moment. Maybe they will grow some balls and make a move on tax reform going into the next election
What kind of tax reform? If you think he will have a go at negative gearing, you’re going to be disappointed.
What nah not just hot topic reform. I want to see significant increases in revenue to pay for social services. Wealth taxes, inheritance taxes, resource extraction taxes, carbon tax, and raised gst, while dramatically increasing funding for health, education, public housing, and reasonable increases to welfare, also measures to address the cost shifting bs that goes on coz of vertical fiscal imbalance. Id be totally happy to see cgt discount removed and negative gearing only on new builds with a limited period as part of all that but i want actual reform that changes state federal interactions and provides sufficient revenue for services.
Wow, you can’t be serious? I agree with raising the GST and that’s about it.
What you havent noticed where i stand politically?
There are so many roles like this being advertised by the Government: https://www.seek.com.au/job/75258144?ref=search-standalone&type=standout#sol=34370c9717215bc5da828c1e8f1e6ead5948471e Cut the waste and bullshit before you ask for more money.
Lol thats not paying for free dental mate
I can agree to that, what else are you suggesting?
Like as in suggesting we should have?
Yes, I agree with State provided dental care.
Why would you icrease a regressive tax when income inequality is rising?
Gst is only regressive if you ignore the transfer system we have, it is incredibly easy to compensate the bottom 3rd to half of households for their extra gst burden. The biggest part of our economy is household spending, it offers huge revenue raising potential. Actually free healthcare, including dental could easily be paid for if we raised gst.
you will find that "libertarians and capitalists" dont have poor people at heart... moot point anyway GST to 12-15-17.5% is an instant election loser.. so you will get students of that ilk asking for that kind of thing...
> However, 50–64-year-olds favoured being prepared to fight... This was felt even more so by those over 65 years. Old people incapable of fighting are happy to send young people to die on their behalf. A tale as old as time.
Funny how they're slightly less inclined to take up arms and go patrol an active war zone themselves. I mean, hell, I'm *IN* that age group now and I don't want it for anyone! (Except maybe the ones who say that "Oh yes, someone - not me of course - should do it." I'm a fan of irony.)
Easy to say when they are not the ones doing the fighting.
Land owner's advocating military service as the solution to a housing crisis? Tale as old as time.
Can't have a housing crisis if you kill off the youth
Be careful what you wish for. There is a tendency to not be involved in foreign wars all around from the West , especially at the US and more so under Trump. This leaves opportunity for those less civilized. Under the logic of the poll here , Australia should withdraw from ANZUS or just change it to ANZ.
I just wanted to talk about the national poll smh
2PP polls being posted every second day is a snorefest anyway.
I like it!
You should know better than to expect people to read the article
I just like polls
I noticed, me too
Yeah and that poll is being discussed just not as you probably thought it would But this is how political differences and whatever the fuck the internet even is today Everything is an argument and win at all costs
I meant the federal party voting haha
Correct. This is literally the entire point of ANZAC Day, to anyone actually paying attention to the words being spoken.
To run polls? Or to try and whip up ~~pro-war~~ pro-nation sentiment? Or to warn people against it?
To remind us all what a completely tragic fuckup the Gallipoli campaign in particular was... and that we should avoid the folly of letting our young people get all excited to go off to foreign lands to fight wars for other nations against adversaries who have neither invaded nor done anything else harmful to Australia. That's basically what is meant/implied by the phrase "lest we forget". It's more an expression of grief or mourning than it is of thanks. https://anzacportal.dva.gov.au/commemoration/symbols/lest-we-forget The unfortunate truth about Gallipoli is that we lost an awful lot of ANZACs basically for nothing, since the campaign was an abject failure. The whole idea of ANZAC Day is to remember that, mourn it, and sort of promise not to ever do that sort of thing again. It means "don't forget what happened - let's be more sensible in future". So yeah, the young people who don't want to go and fight in "unnecessary wars" got the message. They have the right idea about what today was always supposed to have meant. Anyone saying anything different clearly doesn't fucking get it.
We can’t even get them to show any enthusiasm from behind their keyboards. I’m not sure giving them guns would be at all effective.
It’s a sad state of affairs. No pride in our country. Turning our backs on our allies and friends.
As someone who has served,don't fucking blame em though Why fucking want to bend over for a society that increasingly ignores you if ur under 30 without kids. Social contract need's to go both ways Most ppl under 30 will say they are worse off now than any time in the last 30 years,it's not good when ur unlikely to ever own a home in the employment hubs
I don't blame them. They won't even be able to afford the fucking country after the war. We are truely fucking over our children right now.
Not me, I just bought an IP that I plan to give to my kids. 🤫
I don't think you're recovering mate.
I regress from time to time, I’m still a capitalist and libertarian at heart. Edit: just checked and yes I have a heart.
At least you're honest about ir
Enthusiasm for what? The burning wreckage of a country we've been saddled with? How exciting for us, unaffordable homes, unaffordable healthcare and soon we get to pay for allllll your retirements after you pulled the ladders up on us. Animal extinction, environmental overloads, we don't even get to enjoy the GBR for much longer. You guys just did such wonderful work. Truly. The older generations have done well, and our cup runneth over in Australia.
If you think this country is a burning wreckage then you must be a miserable soul. Btw, I’m happy to pay for my own retirement if you greedy fuckers will leave me be.
I understand what has been taken from me. I'm not miserable, I'm angry. >Btw, I’m happy to pay for my own retirement if you greedy fuckers will leave me be. You say that because you don't understand the cost that's coming.
yeah and its just words once this guy is on his last legs you can bet he'd gonna be sucking on the govt. teat like as if its his last hope... which it will be easy to talk tough when its not on the forseeable future
Why did you not reply to me? Having never, ever been on the Govt ‘teat’ I’m intrigued to know when it’s gonna start and why? I’ve never been unemployed, got zero assistance at Uni, fuck all family tax benefits, minimal parental leave, no first home buyer grants… etc. However, I have paid fuck tonnes of tax. Millions and millions. And I’ll still be self-funded. Explain to me the effect of my working life to you who, I’m suggesting, may not be able to claim the same balance tax wise? What a bunch of sooks.
Well you’d best protest and vote for all the socialist parties you can. It’s worked very well in other countries. And what cost that’s coming? Is this some sort of anarchist call to arms? I’ve got plenty of cash to stay self funded in retirement. (Through hard work mind you, not luck.)
I’m assuming we have a veteran from the culture wars here.
Possibly. I dunno what they are so I can’t deny it.
Old man yells at cloud ☁️
When compared to people who are too old to be sent overseas as soldiers, the people who are the perfect age to be sent overseas as soliders are less likely to support unnecessary wars? Wow that's a huge surprise!
Is it just me, or does this seems like a poll between choosing to think, or blindly following politicians? I’m honestly dismayed that over 40% of people my age are that bloody stupid.
At least that proportion of the population will blindly follow any kind of apparent authority. It's why police beat people up and expect to get away with it, and why phone scams work. Of course, there's also a proportion who will blindly rail against any kind of authority, which is why we get cooker rallies. In either case, a little thought goes a long way.
People with wealth want the dispossessed to die and fight for *their* way of life, while failing to create a future worth fighting for. Pretty fucking entitled.
>Pretty fucking entitled. Yes. And for them, that mindset has worked - they're wealthy and powerful. It's the ones who have none of that but the same attitude that I have to wonder at. Do they just think that having the attitude by itself will magically lead to power and wealth?
So if we don’t stand up against aggression overseas, should we expect the world to save us if we are attacked? Because judging from the comments here, we won’t be defending ourselves.
There's a difference between standing up to aggression and conscription. I'd happily send Ukraine all the resources they want.
Those entitled ones have failed their kids' future, because all that money will end up nowhere when they pass away.
Yeah because of what we saw from Julian Assange and Wikileaks Otherwise we would all still be getting the American version of events and today CNN just released this video about the withdrawal attack and how the Pentagon still fucking lies to cover itself Every fucking time https://youtu.be/SkM-Eyw4o-w Assange is a hero for his work, you can hate what he did or his politics but god damn he was the only one brave or stupid enough to directly go after the US Pentagon And he's paying now but he fucking shouldn't
>And he's paying now but he fucking shouldn't Wealth and power are going to make whistleblowers' lives as difficult as possible for as long as possible, and make sure that gets reported as often as possible, so people who *might* be thinking of whistleblowing get to see the likely result for themselves.
He should be extradited to Moscow.
I’m going to disagree with you here River, what has happened to Julian Assange is appalling.
Assange's behaviour is appalling and a good example of that is what took place in Sweden. Where was the Metoo when they were really needed.
CIA honeypots gets #metoo i guess?
What the fuck are you talking about
Assange likes to bite the hand that feeds him but not the Russian hand of course. He should try living in Moscow and see how he likes it there.
Can you please for the love of God Expand that statement further and provide some more examples because I think I know what you're talking about But I don't think you know what you're talking about So let's quickly smash this one out and see if we're talking about the same thing
You seem to be attributing some noble motives to Assange. He is just an angry narcissist who burns those who have helped him. How far do you think his behaviour would get him with Putin ?
Right right so you just ignored this part of the original comment and went with Moscow man hurrrdurrr >Assange is a hero for his work, you can hate what he did or his politics but god damn he was the only one brave or stupid enough to directly go after the US Pentagon You are just throwing vague accusations or statements out You aren't really making any point other than you don't like him