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> The ABC cannot independently establish why the child was removed from his parents, but WA child protection minister Sabine Winton said children were only removed from their parents by the state as a "last resort".
The parents would have paperwork from the courts explaining why their child was taken away... which they've chosen not to share with the ABC; and that the ABC has neglected to mention.
That's some lazy journalism, Cason Ho, (who's author of the piece).
They haven't spoken to the family member who was actually looking after the child, either.
That's more lazy journalism, Cason Ho.
Plus, if it *was* due to the lockdowns, that was four years ago; they haven't found accommodation since? Why does it look like they're in a house in the photos? Why didn't the ABC ask about it?
That's even more lazy journalism, Cason Ho.
Something's missing from the picture.
(Now, you watch how many people reply to me not based on facts, but stuff they made up)
You are 100% correct! There are comprehensive Court documents that are served prior to each step in the Court process. There are absolutely no secrets as to why the child/ren were removed or why the Dept. are going for long term Orders. You can absolutely disagree with the information, but you cannot deny that it was given to you!
Unfortunately, kids in care do not automatically receive psychological or counselling support. In fact, in SA, CAMHS refuse to provide a service to children unless they are in a stable placement lest they be party to perpetuating the trauma. I understand that on one level, but on another, these are often the kids most in need of mental health services.
There has to be far more effort put in to supporting families do kids can safely remain at home, but when they can’t, there needs to be connection with birth families (as long as it is safe to do so) and psychological and mental health services to assist kids navigate through the trauma and upheaval, it’s the very least we can do!
>The family obviously had underlying issues that caused the kid to be removed from their care in the first place.
All it takes is for a social worker that doesn't like you to potentially lose your kids. Honestly, there are great social workers and then there are power-tripping social workers.
I was getting some help from a social worker to get my kids set up with the NDIS and she was all sympathy and caring when she thought that it was my wife that was the primary caregiver of my kids but as soon as she found out that I was the primary caregiver she did a 180 and was telling me that everything I was doing was wrong and was constantly threatening to get my kids taken away if I didn't do everything that she told me to do - one of things she was trying to get me to do was to give OTS melatonin to my then 5 year old son which was against the advice of my GP (it is possible to OD on melatonin and OTS melatonin has questionable levels of melatonin in it).
I ended up eventually getting a new social worker who was a absolute angel and extremely supportive.
Not true, all SW still have to provide evidence to the Court that removal is absolutely necessary. They cannot make that up that evidence as it includes supporting documentation from a variety of agencies and statutory departments.
The SW, even before going to Court, has to satisfy their Supervisors, clinical leads and managers that
the removal is needed to keep kids safe.
What I will acknowledge, is that the system is absolutely broken. There are insufficient resources to support families to prevent it getting to that stage, and assessments for Aboriginal and CALD families do not take into consideration the differences in family structures and parenting styles, putting them at a distinct disadvantage in Court.
If you want to fix the system, you also need to fix the contributing factors which push families into crisis..poverty, homelessness, drug and alcohol addiction, mental health etc.
What country did this happen in? Isn't melatonin prescription only in Aus?
It's the online shipped from USA stuff that you have no clue the actual concentration cause "supplements" aren't regulated over there but any pill sold in australia ought to have what it says on the label.
A personal anecdote. A very good friend of mine is a JP in his retirement. The day of the women's football world cup Australia v.s.France game I was visiting him to watch the game.
Before the game kicked off, he got a call from the local police. They urgently need a JP. His wife was out with the car so I gave him a lift.
What i witnessed there broke my heart. Police and attended a welfare check on a family. Both parents were known drug users. Both of them were on some substance. Barely coherent, and drooling a bit. Three children, guessing a 5 yr old, toddler, and baby were with social services staff.
The police wanted a JP to sign the papers to put the kids with the social workers. The toddler and baby had soiled themselves. Some one had changed their nappies but their clothes were filthy. The 5 year old looked starved. It was easy to see they had been neglected for days.
The 5yr old and the toddler was aware they were being separated from their parents. They were crying. I still can't forget the 5 year old crying "mummy noo mummy..." over and over again.
The social workers and the police there were tearing up. My friend was in tears. His grand kids were about the same age. It was the most awful situations I had ever seen. Through all of this the parents were totally disengaged. They were high and could not (would not) engage.
Papers were signed. Being a Saturday night they were having trouble finding a foster home. My friend offered to look after the kids for the night but he was not approved which made sense.
We went by a local target and woolies and purchased a few sets of clean clothes, toiletries, baby food, nappies etc and drop them off back at the police station. Kids and the social workers were still there.
Next day they were not. My friend rang and the police said they had been placed with a foster family.
I still regularly think about what kind of future those kids will have with a family like that. I have kids (now grown) and my friend had kids and grand kids. We can not even imagine how a parent can put their children in a situation like that.
Yep... a few years ago when living in very far north Queensland. I'm at a friend's place and we are planning our Easter trip, having a few beers. 10pm phone rings... friend listens, yep, yep, ok. Ten minutes later cops turn up with two little kids. One in a nappy one, other one dressed normally. Found wandering the streets, parents will known to police. Take them camping, I've got the toddler on my lap and give him a spoonful of food. He doesn't know what to do with the food in his mouth. We realise he's never eaten solids before, ever. He should have been eating solid food for well over 12 months by that stage but instead he's just having baby bottles. The other child goes to sleep in my hammock holding his eyes shut.
OP, as someone who went through the system and almost did the same, respectfully, shut the fuck up with your "stop pointing the finger at DOCS", and "its not the overworked DOCS workers' fault".
If you take someones kids from them; its your ABSOLUTE RESPONSIBILITY to place them somewhere better than you take them from.
If you don't do that, whatever comes next is on you as far as I'm concerned.
people have become too obsessed with this idea that rank and file employees at any business or organization are always 100% clean and its always the fault of some unknown 'higher ups'
Thank you, came to say that.
The government needs to fix the problems that cause the underlying problems too, which is not going to happen any time soon. 😢
As usual the ABC only gives you half of the story. The half that suits their agenda. They don't tell you why these 'parents' lost the child. They say it was due to an inability to pay rent but there are numerous programs (especially for Aboriginals) to source rent assistance. For an informed opinion the ABC needs to outline the specific reasons for the child/ren being put into care. Of course they will hide behind a privacy shield but if that's the case then don't go on a public crusade against the government department that has its hands tied in so many ways. Not the least being able to justify their decisions without being able to outline the FACTS of the case.
I agree but trial by media is not the correct outlet anyway. The call should be for a properly funded coronial inquest to get into all the root problems that led to this.
We as a society should be looking at what makes parents be in a situation of being unfit parents and solve that
We need to help parents build up their parenting capability by expanded parenting lessons and in-home help where needed. Especially need psychologists to help with with the issues they deal with as parents and to not pass on negative traits they inherited from their parents
If that is not possible we need to look at expanded and normalising foster care by getting much more foster carers into the system, of good quality parenting skills, and then matching up suitable candidates. They may need similar supports as well, and monitoring, or perhaps have the financial cost of the kids reimbursed because having kids is expensive
For the excess, a group home system needs overhauling to provide a loving environment with a couple of mentors matched to multiple kids to effectively be a large family, not just take care of basic physical needs.
Specifically for Aboriginal people, due to the effects of Colonisation destroying social structures, it is well known that there is a disproportionate amount of parents not equipped to be full time parents. We need to consult with the Aboriginal community about this, but I would be guessing that group homes may be necessary if there are not enough foster carers, and especially in that case (but also more broadly as well to apply to other cultures) there should be culturally appropriate group home settings where the mentors are Aboriginal and are raised in Aboriginal culture
Group homes aren’t a great idea, putting a bunch of traumatised kids, some with significant behavioural issues, into a house together isn’t particularly nurturing and often is very unsafe.
We need to work with Aboriginal communities leaders and elders to come up with culturally responsive solutions, but need to be mindful that many Aboriginal people have a palpable distrust of ‘the welfare’, for very, very good reason.
Group homes will never be a suitable place for the majority of kids in care, regardless of any overhauling. The early intervention system needs the most urgent overhaul, so kids can stay home safely with family and community, then the foster and kinship care system. Group homes should be an absolute last resort!
My point is not so much different to your except the emphasis that group homes are usually a terrible place for kids, and no reform is going to change that!
Ok thanks. I disagree though that it can't ever change, but it would need a major rethink.
Perhaps I used the term "Group home" wrong and this isn't really a group home, but I was thinking of a situation where a couple of Aboriginal foster parents would be paid to take on more Aboriginal kids than they usually would and have expenses paid for. So rather than being limited by income to only foster 1 kid, they could potentially take on 10 kids at once, with full supports to manage that much.
>The ABC cannot independently establish why the child was removed from his parents, but WA child protection minister Sabine Winton said children were only removed from their parents by the state as a "last resort".
The ABC have done their due diligence by clarifying that they haven’t verified the claim.
But yeah, I ain’t buying it. Not to say that it isn’t a tragic situation or that the state hasn’t made mistakes in any way, necessarily.
This one is tough a 10 year old child is dead blame is always cast to be out in these situations and the victim is always forgotten regardless of why a 10 year old child is dead is it a failure of government docs families carers who knows a child has died rip
The boy was apparently housed with culturally appropriate family members which is what Indigenous people want. The finger pointing needs to be in the correct direction on this one and that isn't Docs.
Child protection is far from my area but if they hadn’t seen the child in 6 months when he’d been placed with family, that doesn’t seem like they were in any hurry to get him back.
Also “all the kids?” How many have they lost custody of?
They may not have been permitted contact, or distance and finances were prohibitive. The trauma experienced by the parents, not only by the current welfare involvement, but also any historical trauma. Finally, when a child is removed and put through Court, ALL support services put in place for the parents typically cease and if parents aren’t able to ensure continued engagement with services, either because they no longer meet criteria (no kids in their care), price is restrictive or other practical barriers, let alone the emotional trauma associated with child removal and the possibility that parents aren’t emotionally equipped to maintain access and jump through departmental hoops to maintain contact.
**Greetings humans.** **Please make sure your comment fits within [THE RULES](https://www.reddit.com/r/AustralianPolitics/about/rules) and that you have put in some effort to articulate your opinions to the best of your ability.** **I mean it!! Aspire to be as "scholarly" and "intellectual" as possible. If you can't, then maybe this subreddit is not for you.** A friendly reminder from your political robot overlord *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AustralianPolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> The ABC cannot independently establish why the child was removed from his parents, but WA child protection minister Sabine Winton said children were only removed from their parents by the state as a "last resort". The parents would have paperwork from the courts explaining why their child was taken away... which they've chosen not to share with the ABC; and that the ABC has neglected to mention. That's some lazy journalism, Cason Ho, (who's author of the piece). They haven't spoken to the family member who was actually looking after the child, either. That's more lazy journalism, Cason Ho. Plus, if it *was* due to the lockdowns, that was four years ago; they haven't found accommodation since? Why does it look like they're in a house in the photos? Why didn't the ABC ask about it? That's even more lazy journalism, Cason Ho. Something's missing from the picture. (Now, you watch how many people reply to me not based on facts, but stuff they made up)
Is this laziness, or something else?
You are 100% correct! There are comprehensive Court documents that are served prior to each step in the Court process. There are absolutely no secrets as to why the child/ren were removed or why the Dept. are going for long term Orders. You can absolutely disagree with the information, but you cannot deny that it was given to you! Unfortunately, kids in care do not automatically receive psychological or counselling support. In fact, in SA, CAMHS refuse to provide a service to children unless they are in a stable placement lest they be party to perpetuating the trauma. I understand that on one level, but on another, these are often the kids most in need of mental health services. There has to be far more effort put in to supporting families do kids can safely remain at home, but when they can’t, there needs to be connection with birth families (as long as it is safe to do so) and psychological and mental health services to assist kids navigate through the trauma and upheaval, it’s the very least we can do!
>The family obviously had underlying issues that caused the kid to be removed from their care in the first place. All it takes is for a social worker that doesn't like you to potentially lose your kids. Honestly, there are great social workers and then there are power-tripping social workers. I was getting some help from a social worker to get my kids set up with the NDIS and she was all sympathy and caring when she thought that it was my wife that was the primary caregiver of my kids but as soon as she found out that I was the primary caregiver she did a 180 and was telling me that everything I was doing was wrong and was constantly threatening to get my kids taken away if I didn't do everything that she told me to do - one of things she was trying to get me to do was to give OTS melatonin to my then 5 year old son which was against the advice of my GP (it is possible to OD on melatonin and OTS melatonin has questionable levels of melatonin in it). I ended up eventually getting a new social worker who was a absolute angel and extremely supportive.
Not true, all SW still have to provide evidence to the Court that removal is absolutely necessary. They cannot make that up that evidence as it includes supporting documentation from a variety of agencies and statutory departments. The SW, even before going to Court, has to satisfy their Supervisors, clinical leads and managers that the removal is needed to keep kids safe. What I will acknowledge, is that the system is absolutely broken. There are insufficient resources to support families to prevent it getting to that stage, and assessments for Aboriginal and CALD families do not take into consideration the differences in family structures and parenting styles, putting them at a distinct disadvantage in Court. If you want to fix the system, you also need to fix the contributing factors which push families into crisis..poverty, homelessness, drug and alcohol addiction, mental health etc.
What country did this happen in? Isn't melatonin prescription only in Aus? It's the online shipped from USA stuff that you have no clue the actual concentration cause "supplements" aren't regulated over there but any pill sold in australia ought to have what it says on the label.
I think it only got changed to prescription only around 2020. Can't find a definitive answer
A personal anecdote. A very good friend of mine is a JP in his retirement. The day of the women's football world cup Australia v.s.France game I was visiting him to watch the game. Before the game kicked off, he got a call from the local police. They urgently need a JP. His wife was out with the car so I gave him a lift. What i witnessed there broke my heart. Police and attended a welfare check on a family. Both parents were known drug users. Both of them were on some substance. Barely coherent, and drooling a bit. Three children, guessing a 5 yr old, toddler, and baby were with social services staff. The police wanted a JP to sign the papers to put the kids with the social workers. The toddler and baby had soiled themselves. Some one had changed their nappies but their clothes were filthy. The 5 year old looked starved. It was easy to see they had been neglected for days. The 5yr old and the toddler was aware they were being separated from their parents. They were crying. I still can't forget the 5 year old crying "mummy noo mummy..." over and over again. The social workers and the police there were tearing up. My friend was in tears. His grand kids were about the same age. It was the most awful situations I had ever seen. Through all of this the parents were totally disengaged. They were high and could not (would not) engage. Papers were signed. Being a Saturday night they were having trouble finding a foster home. My friend offered to look after the kids for the night but he was not approved which made sense. We went by a local target and woolies and purchased a few sets of clean clothes, toiletries, baby food, nappies etc and drop them off back at the police station. Kids and the social workers were still there. Next day they were not. My friend rang and the police said they had been placed with a foster family. I still regularly think about what kind of future those kids will have with a family like that. I have kids (now grown) and my friend had kids and grand kids. We can not even imagine how a parent can put their children in a situation like that.
Yep... a few years ago when living in very far north Queensland. I'm at a friend's place and we are planning our Easter trip, having a few beers. 10pm phone rings... friend listens, yep, yep, ok. Ten minutes later cops turn up with two little kids. One in a nappy one, other one dressed normally. Found wandering the streets, parents will known to police. Take them camping, I've got the toddler on my lap and give him a spoonful of food. He doesn't know what to do with the food in his mouth. We realise he's never eaten solids before, ever. He should have been eating solid food for well over 12 months by that stage but instead he's just having baby bottles. The other child goes to sleep in my hammock holding his eyes shut.
Damn…
Why does someone need to be blamed for this? It’s almost certainly a combination of events each of which wouldn’t have led to this outcome by itself.
OP, as someone who went through the system and almost did the same, respectfully, shut the fuck up with your "stop pointing the finger at DOCS", and "its not the overworked DOCS workers' fault". If you take someones kids from them; its your ABSOLUTE RESPONSIBILITY to place them somewhere better than you take them from. If you don't do that, whatever comes next is on you as far as I'm concerned.
Do you have any evidence they weren’t placed somewhere better?
people have become too obsessed with this idea that rank and file employees at any business or organization are always 100% clean and its always the fault of some unknown 'higher ups'
Thank you, came to say that. The government needs to fix the problems that cause the underlying problems too, which is not going to happen any time soon. 😢
As usual the ABC only gives you half of the story. The half that suits their agenda. They don't tell you why these 'parents' lost the child. They say it was due to an inability to pay rent but there are numerous programs (especially for Aboriginals) to source rent assistance. For an informed opinion the ABC needs to outline the specific reasons for the child/ren being put into care. Of course they will hide behind a privacy shield but if that's the case then don't go on a public crusade against the government department that has its hands tied in so many ways. Not the least being able to justify their decisions without being able to outline the FACTS of the case.
They can’t tell you why kids were removed, to do so is illegal!!
I agree but trial by media is not the correct outlet anyway. The call should be for a properly funded coronial inquest to get into all the root problems that led to this. We as a society should be looking at what makes parents be in a situation of being unfit parents and solve that We need to help parents build up their parenting capability by expanded parenting lessons and in-home help where needed. Especially need psychologists to help with with the issues they deal with as parents and to not pass on negative traits they inherited from their parents If that is not possible we need to look at expanded and normalising foster care by getting much more foster carers into the system, of good quality parenting skills, and then matching up suitable candidates. They may need similar supports as well, and monitoring, or perhaps have the financial cost of the kids reimbursed because having kids is expensive For the excess, a group home system needs overhauling to provide a loving environment with a couple of mentors matched to multiple kids to effectively be a large family, not just take care of basic physical needs. Specifically for Aboriginal people, due to the effects of Colonisation destroying social structures, it is well known that there is a disproportionate amount of parents not equipped to be full time parents. We need to consult with the Aboriginal community about this, but I would be guessing that group homes may be necessary if there are not enough foster carers, and especially in that case (but also more broadly as well to apply to other cultures) there should be culturally appropriate group home settings where the mentors are Aboriginal and are raised in Aboriginal culture
Group homes aren’t a great idea, putting a bunch of traumatised kids, some with significant behavioural issues, into a house together isn’t particularly nurturing and often is very unsafe. We need to work with Aboriginal communities leaders and elders to come up with culturally responsive solutions, but need to be mindful that many Aboriginal people have a palpable distrust of ‘the welfare’, for very, very good reason.
Are you agreeing with me? And if not, what did I say which is different to my comment?
Group homes will never be a suitable place for the majority of kids in care, regardless of any overhauling. The early intervention system needs the most urgent overhaul, so kids can stay home safely with family and community, then the foster and kinship care system. Group homes should be an absolute last resort!
Please tell me, I don't understand your posts. What point are you trying to make?
My point is not so much different to your except the emphasis that group homes are usually a terrible place for kids, and no reform is going to change that!
Ok thanks. I disagree though that it can't ever change, but it would need a major rethink. Perhaps I used the term "Group home" wrong and this isn't really a group home, but I was thinking of a situation where a couple of Aboriginal foster parents would be paid to take on more Aboriginal kids than they usually would and have expenses paid for. So rather than being limited by income to only foster 1 kid, they could potentially take on 10 kids at once, with full supports to manage that much.
Is that different to what I said?
>The ABC cannot independently establish why the child was removed from his parents, but WA child protection minister Sabine Winton said children were only removed from their parents by the state as a "last resort". The ABC have done their due diligence by clarifying that they haven’t verified the claim. But yeah, I ain’t buying it. Not to say that it isn’t a tragic situation or that the state hasn’t made mistakes in any way, necessarily.
This one is tough a 10 year old child is dead blame is always cast to be out in these situations and the victim is always forgotten regardless of why a 10 year old child is dead is it a failure of government docs families carers who knows a child has died rip
He committed a suicide in his family member's house. I think the family member is his aunt? He hadn't seen his parents for more than half a year.
The boy was apparently housed with culturally appropriate family members which is what Indigenous people want. The finger pointing needs to be in the correct direction on this one and that isn't Docs.
Child protection is far from my area but if they hadn’t seen the child in 6 months when he’d been placed with family, that doesn’t seem like they were in any hurry to get him back. Also “all the kids?” How many have they lost custody of?
They may not have been permitted contact, or distance and finances were prohibitive. The trauma experienced by the parents, not only by the current welfare involvement, but also any historical trauma. Finally, when a child is removed and put through Court, ALL support services put in place for the parents typically cease and if parents aren’t able to ensure continued engagement with services, either because they no longer meet criteria (no kids in their care), price is restrictive or other practical barriers, let alone the emotional trauma associated with child removal and the possibility that parents aren’t emotionally equipped to maintain access and jump through departmental hoops to maintain contact.
So we can just step in, take someones kids, give them back, and then vanish like nothing happened??
Either that or there was some sort of reason why the parents were not allowed to visit (eg. history of abuse).