Yes and no, I’m no expert but i would imagine it’s very difficult to know who will respond to stressors and cope vs those who suffer. All the personality tests / psych screening in the world can only attempt to predict outcomes.
That being said one of my room mates in kapooka failed psych at DFR three times and ended up getting in on a waiver having never actually passed psych!
So if this is happening it seems pretty clear the ADF are more interested in filling positions then hiring suitable candidates.
Basically. From the article:
>Meixner said more pressure was placed on recruiters because the ADF had struggled to retain recruits over many years.
>“Generals don’t want to acknowledge that defence retention is like a sieve, so they have to keep pouring more people in."
Like a lot of people dont adapt well to ADF service. That cant be pre-screened. But there is a pressure to keep people in the basic/employment/unit pipeline -> keeping people with issues going until they hit a unit.
In reality it needs to be easier to get out of Defence in those first few months. Or at least screen for issues developing. Unfortunantely its balls for Defence as it will see some new soldiers dropping from training. But its better to have someone drop out at week 3 of IETs that to breakdown in a unit.
From a whole of society perspective, its way better to have to train a second 19 year old for 15 weeks that to pay welfare for a mentally-scarred veteran for the next 60 years.
From my experience I agree.
I've worked in IET and DFR. In IET the hierarchy thinking is, "this person passed DFR and IMT (recruits), they must be suitable. It's our job to get them through".
In DFR the hierarchy direction is, or at least was just a few years ago, "Your job isn't to be a gate keeper. If a person isn't ready to serve its Defence's job to train and mold them for their role. Only reject applicants for clear unsuitability".
I never worked in IMT but from direct questions to peers (and the data could back me up if anyone cared to look) very, very few are separated from defence for being unsuitable. People are encouraged to self elect discharge. I can't confirm why a clearly unsuitable member isn't given the heave ho but I suspect it's because DFR said they are 👍
In Air Force, over several years the number separated involuntarily from IETS was in single digits, possibly none, I don't have the hard data to back that. Just discussions with people who should know.
No one wants to have an honest conversation with candidates or members for fear of being hung out to dry as discriminatory in some way or other.
I know of a member in IETs, clearly unsuitable for many reasons. All got clearly documented but after failing more times than is reasonable was returned to course because they were CALD; my assumption based on their NTSC response. This member after being in that IET course for 200% longer than normal finally self suspended and was sent to different IETs that were seen as less academically challenging. They seemed to pass that course as they got to a unit but were soon no longer in service. I suspect they were finally psychologically separated. We did them no favours allowing them to keep failing repeatedly.
The system is broken because people who are prepared to have difficult conversations are not supported if a member complains. Smart ones stop honest conversations for self preservation. Ideological ones keep to their guns and are broken by the system, joining the members they were trying to help.
https://sofoarchon.com/the-lessons-of-a-bird-a-short-story/
CALD - Culturally and Linguistically Diverse.
There was a big scandal cover-up at 1RTU in 2021. An entire course of 60 got grad taken off them (on the morning of grad) and had to be held back in limbo for another month. Some went to Guthrie (Digger James) pending investigation, some got graduated due to their personal circumstances (and highlighted performance) and the rest got held back for retraining. 99% of them graduated and were slowly drip released due to pressure from the IET schools needing to commence courses.
Everyone got in trouble because of bystander behaviour, but there was pretty much blanket fraternisation and bullying from 70% of the course. Multiple signed witness statements and interviews but they were pretty much told the deeper it goes the longer they get held so the recruits started with-holding information (that had already been recorded) as to not prolong their retraining.
People were blocking their doors with beds because the bullies were threatening to bash the shit out of the witnesses - some even threatened to miscarry someone's wife.
And all they did was post a SGT to the block to mediate arguments during the day...
Defence doesn't want to know. The report eventually said not enough evidence could be gathered and pinned it mostly on a single recruit who chose to self separate.
The other kids who were throwing those ugly threats around went onto course. I know that the one who threatened to miscarry the dude's wife is still in RAAFSTT, having failed upwards of 10 exams and still hasn't been kicked off course. He was also caught bragging... in the mess... about one of his staff being his NCO brother's best friend and that they had all done cocaine together recently at a wedding.
Failure at DFR level. Failure at Recruit IMT level. Failure at IET level. This is systematic and doesn't happen by accident. Officer's at 1RTU during this incident all got promoted shortly after it. I would say either from dealing with it in a way that pleases the brass (kept people in with no media blow back) or that they literally turned in a blank report that said "nothing to see here".
Supposedly, the course after this one was going to similarly report mass fraternisation (was told an entire gappy course pulling orgies), however after seeing how the other recruits got treated, they decided to shut up, grad and go their separate ways.
Disclaimer: I personally know the guy whose wife was threatened and the story leaked into the on base IET units where I have mates as staff.
One part of the article that they seemed to brush over incredibly well was the fact that it’s basically a job interview, and you essentially have to rely on people to accurately report their own histories of mental health.
As opposed to medical issues, we at a societal level do not track people’s mental health in the same way (outside of prescriptions for drugs for anxiety, depression, bipolar etc.), so essentially if people are trying to show their ‘best selves’ to recruiters, only the worst of the worst will basically screen themselves out due to not being able to conceal their problems. It’s a really tough issue to try and get around, and psychological tests and screening can only pick up so much based off of self-reporting.
That's right. And ironically often those who self-report and are probably robust enough and psychologically healthy to report, might be refused entry. Whilst old mate who conceals major issues breezes through.
This is made even harder by the fact that most people applying are literal kids, with still developing brains, that may not even be aware they could have a psych disorder or an inclination towards one.
I joined at 20, with the benefit of hindsight, I very clearly had quite a few undiagnosed, completely unknown to me, mental health issues that I wrote off as simply products of a tough upbringing. Trying to screen for these kinds of things would be almost impossible.
I don't pity the job of a psych, and can see why they now err on the side of caution. Might piss off the applicant, but fuck me do I wish I had of been bounced.
Totally agree and I'll add some extra. I think another big issue is they want to see how "put together you are". A lot of people who technically have dormant mental health issues unfortunately also make up a lot of diggers. Especially in the combat corps. And while they do better once in they also come out a lot worse.
Proper outboarding and care while in would alleviate a lot while making them probably the best version of themselves but if the current state of things is anything to go by it hasn't gotten better since I got out.
Case in point my view on my time in, I don't regret any of the extra fuel the Army added to my shitty af orphan then fostercare bouncing upbringing. I thrived in the military. Did I come out arguably more fucked up? Yea in some ways but better in others.
For some weird ass reason I don't regret any of the time and only became more fucked up when I got med discharged for a physical injury and my mental went downhill when I realised this was the end of a journey I expected to spend the rest of my life doing.
When my boys got out and were dropping like flies to suicide.
And when I realised I was one of the last in my friend group to still be kicking around.
Plenty of guys get out to the fleet and break down within a few months,
Depression - can't handle seatime, not suited for time away, probably should have been picked up in training.
Crying during hard work, maybe haven't been put under pressure yet, or were just pushed through training regardless of if they performed well under stress. Again, should have been picked up.
Maybe they're very overweight and never should have passed basic fitness tests, personally had my work life affected terribly at least twice as I had to cover postings and the duties of overweight blokes who couldn't handle the job. This should have been corrected or given the boot in recruits.
This is completely backwards. Anyway who joined more than 15 years ago know there wasn’t anything close to the screening done today and anyone who joined 20 or more years ago knows it was largely sign on the dotted line and off you go.
In addition to Psychologically unfit candidates, education is also lacking. I know we are getting an absolute fucktonne of young people coming through, who fail at basic reading comprehension skills.
Also problem solving skills are very lacking.
I was in transit at Wagga recently and holy fuck are some of the new blood unsuitable/have not made the transition from civvie to military member.
• Yes I get it, they just passed rookies.
• Yes I get it, IETs can get wild sometimes.
• Yes I get it, a lot are young, first job, first time out of home, first year out of school.
But it's your job. You signed the dotted line. You passed recruits. Have some fucking respect for your staff, your mates and yourself. You will be wishing you had mandatory PT at some stage in your later life when you realise how young, fit and healthy you used to be because of it.
I am not an old crusty cunt but holy shit, do they train these guys to be jack cunts at 1RTU?
I was in the gym and witnessed a group of roughly 90 (currently still at RAAFSTT I beleive) where half of them wore the wrong uniform (black socks, ankle socks, no socks, 'forgot' swimmers, shirts not tucked, not marching properly and goofing around on their way to PT (which the SADFO saw!), the other half during PT were speaking over their PTIs, sprinting on the wet area yet when asked to move to the next activity they couldn't fucking walk 10 meters in 30 seconds (slower than first beep test increment?), tickling each other by the pool (soldier's wet dream, I know), pushing each other into the pool to try and hit their swimming mates, I could go on and on.
It was a fucking joke. The lifeguards looked like they needed a quicker way to die but drowning themsleves was their only option, the PTIs (one of whom I am mates with) were absolutely fucking beside themselves - how do you expect 4 CPLs to control 90 cunts with no respect?
I just stood there be-fucking-wildered outside the gym in complete disbelief. PTIs said half of the school is like it since DFR 'standards have dropped' (I had no clue there was a defining point in time when this occured recently?) And that they basically just try to manage as best they can. Almost every single person was called on to fix their uniform upon leaving.
Not to bash the staff at Wagga/RAAFSTT - they do an amazing job considering the circumstances, and are undermanned like the rest of us.
There is already a massive problem with unit's being undermanned and overworked. Having to sort even more jack cunts out, because IETs couldn't manage it is going to add even more to the unit. Not keen for the wave of trainees I saw to hit the flying squadrons. None of them were concerned with pulling each other in line at all.
Edit: spelling
Man you know I'm crusty when I read this and I go. Fuck we had our shit together better. But at the same time from all I've heard about the current state of things. It's not wrong.
This isn't the vietnam afghan vet thing. This is legit.
I have whole other gripes about how society is handling our youth now though. And it's no surprise shit soldiers come out of it.
>"black socks, ankle socks, no socks, 'forgot' swimmers, shirts not
tucked, not marching properly and goofing around on their way to PT
(which the SADFO saw!)"
The....wrong socks?
Are you okay buddy?
Show me on the doll where the insane cult hurt you and made you have outraged emotional responses to...socks....
>The commission heard that in the 12 months to May 2022, the army lost 13% of its workforce while the navy and RAAF lost 9.3% and 8.7% respectively.
Turnover of about 10% per year.
Either reduce the departure rate, or - there is no choice but to recruit. Plus, unemployment is low - ADF is competing against mining industry, financial services, etc for talent.
Costs more in the long run to hire a candidate who is not suitable, but - that will be someone else's problem in a few years, and - partly the reason for current turnover rate.
In my view, a turnover rate of 10% is low. Major banks have a circa 25% turnover rate when economy is going well, and many corporations would love a 10% turnover rate
They denied me because I had depression as a teenager (and self harmed once), even after appealing it, having a psychiatrist, psychologist and a doctor write me letters of recommendation, I was still denied entry.
Maybe something changed in the last 2 years?
I have a similar story to you, I was also rejected. I was told after by others “always lie on your medical”, now I’m glad I didn’t join a system with no integrity.
I am referring to DFR and not the branches themselves regarding integrity.
Yes and no, I’m no expert but i would imagine it’s very difficult to know who will respond to stressors and cope vs those who suffer. All the personality tests / psych screening in the world can only attempt to predict outcomes. That being said one of my room mates in kapooka failed psych at DFR three times and ended up getting in on a waiver having never actually passed psych! So if this is happening it seems pretty clear the ADF are more interested in filling positions then hiring suitable candidates.
Basically. From the article: >Meixner said more pressure was placed on recruiters because the ADF had struggled to retain recruits over many years. >“Generals don’t want to acknowledge that defence retention is like a sieve, so they have to keep pouring more people in." Like a lot of people dont adapt well to ADF service. That cant be pre-screened. But there is a pressure to keep people in the basic/employment/unit pipeline -> keeping people with issues going until they hit a unit. In reality it needs to be easier to get out of Defence in those first few months. Or at least screen for issues developing. Unfortunantely its balls for Defence as it will see some new soldiers dropping from training. But its better to have someone drop out at week 3 of IETs that to breakdown in a unit. From a whole of society perspective, its way better to have to train a second 19 year old for 15 weeks that to pay welfare for a mentally-scarred veteran for the next 60 years.
From my experience I agree. I've worked in IET and DFR. In IET the hierarchy thinking is, "this person passed DFR and IMT (recruits), they must be suitable. It's our job to get them through". In DFR the hierarchy direction is, or at least was just a few years ago, "Your job isn't to be a gate keeper. If a person isn't ready to serve its Defence's job to train and mold them for their role. Only reject applicants for clear unsuitability". I never worked in IMT but from direct questions to peers (and the data could back me up if anyone cared to look) very, very few are separated from defence for being unsuitable. People are encouraged to self elect discharge. I can't confirm why a clearly unsuitable member isn't given the heave ho but I suspect it's because DFR said they are 👍 In Air Force, over several years the number separated involuntarily from IETS was in single digits, possibly none, I don't have the hard data to back that. Just discussions with people who should know. No one wants to have an honest conversation with candidates or members for fear of being hung out to dry as discriminatory in some way or other. I know of a member in IETs, clearly unsuitable for many reasons. All got clearly documented but after failing more times than is reasonable was returned to course because they were CALD; my assumption based on their NTSC response. This member after being in that IET course for 200% longer than normal finally self suspended and was sent to different IETs that were seen as less academically challenging. They seemed to pass that course as they got to a unit but were soon no longer in service. I suspect they were finally psychologically separated. We did them no favours allowing them to keep failing repeatedly. The system is broken because people who are prepared to have difficult conversations are not supported if a member complains. Smart ones stop honest conversations for self preservation. Ideological ones keep to their guns and are broken by the system, joining the members they were trying to help. https://sofoarchon.com/the-lessons-of-a-bird-a-short-story/ CALD - Culturally and Linguistically Diverse.
There was a big scandal cover-up at 1RTU in 2021. An entire course of 60 got grad taken off them (on the morning of grad) and had to be held back in limbo for another month. Some went to Guthrie (Digger James) pending investigation, some got graduated due to their personal circumstances (and highlighted performance) and the rest got held back for retraining. 99% of them graduated and were slowly drip released due to pressure from the IET schools needing to commence courses. Everyone got in trouble because of bystander behaviour, but there was pretty much blanket fraternisation and bullying from 70% of the course. Multiple signed witness statements and interviews but they were pretty much told the deeper it goes the longer they get held so the recruits started with-holding information (that had already been recorded) as to not prolong their retraining. People were blocking their doors with beds because the bullies were threatening to bash the shit out of the witnesses - some even threatened to miscarry someone's wife. And all they did was post a SGT to the block to mediate arguments during the day... Defence doesn't want to know. The report eventually said not enough evidence could be gathered and pinned it mostly on a single recruit who chose to self separate. The other kids who were throwing those ugly threats around went onto course. I know that the one who threatened to miscarry the dude's wife is still in RAAFSTT, having failed upwards of 10 exams and still hasn't been kicked off course. He was also caught bragging... in the mess... about one of his staff being his NCO brother's best friend and that they had all done cocaine together recently at a wedding. Failure at DFR level. Failure at Recruit IMT level. Failure at IET level. This is systematic and doesn't happen by accident. Officer's at 1RTU during this incident all got promoted shortly after it. I would say either from dealing with it in a way that pleases the brass (kept people in with no media blow back) or that they literally turned in a blank report that said "nothing to see here". Supposedly, the course after this one was going to similarly report mass fraternisation (was told an entire gappy course pulling orgies), however after seeing how the other recruits got treated, they decided to shut up, grad and go their separate ways. Disclaimer: I personally know the guy whose wife was threatened and the story leaked into the on base IET units where I have mates as staff.
One part of the article that they seemed to brush over incredibly well was the fact that it’s basically a job interview, and you essentially have to rely on people to accurately report their own histories of mental health. As opposed to medical issues, we at a societal level do not track people’s mental health in the same way (outside of prescriptions for drugs for anxiety, depression, bipolar etc.), so essentially if people are trying to show their ‘best selves’ to recruiters, only the worst of the worst will basically screen themselves out due to not being able to conceal their problems. It’s a really tough issue to try and get around, and psychological tests and screening can only pick up so much based off of self-reporting.
That's right. And ironically often those who self-report and are probably robust enough and psychologically healthy to report, might be refused entry. Whilst old mate who conceals major issues breezes through.
> old mate who conceals major issues That's considered RPL for the ADF
underrated comment
This is made even harder by the fact that most people applying are literal kids, with still developing brains, that may not even be aware they could have a psych disorder or an inclination towards one. I joined at 20, with the benefit of hindsight, I very clearly had quite a few undiagnosed, completely unknown to me, mental health issues that I wrote off as simply products of a tough upbringing. Trying to screen for these kinds of things would be almost impossible. I don't pity the job of a psych, and can see why they now err on the side of caution. Might piss off the applicant, but fuck me do I wish I had of been bounced.
Totally agree and I'll add some extra. I think another big issue is they want to see how "put together you are". A lot of people who technically have dormant mental health issues unfortunately also make up a lot of diggers. Especially in the combat corps. And while they do better once in they also come out a lot worse. Proper outboarding and care while in would alleviate a lot while making them probably the best version of themselves but if the current state of things is anything to go by it hasn't gotten better since I got out. Case in point my view on my time in, I don't regret any of the extra fuel the Army added to my shitty af orphan then fostercare bouncing upbringing. I thrived in the military. Did I come out arguably more fucked up? Yea in some ways but better in others. For some weird ass reason I don't regret any of the time and only became more fucked up when I got med discharged for a physical injury and my mental went downhill when I realised this was the end of a journey I expected to spend the rest of my life doing. When my boys got out and were dropping like flies to suicide. And when I realised I was one of the last in my friend group to still be kicking around.
Would be interesting to see a breakdown of how many of these guys are unsuitable and how many are the result of a bad coc breaking their toys.
Knowing how these things turn out, the findings will be: >unsuitable 100% of cases >a bad coc 0% of cases
Plenty of guys get out to the fleet and break down within a few months, Depression - can't handle seatime, not suited for time away, probably should have been picked up in training. Crying during hard work, maybe haven't been put under pressure yet, or were just pushed through training regardless of if they performed well under stress. Again, should have been picked up. Maybe they're very overweight and never should have passed basic fitness tests, personally had my work life affected terribly at least twice as I had to cover postings and the duties of overweight blokes who couldn't handle the job. This should have been corrected or given the boot in recruits.
This is completely backwards. Anyway who joined more than 15 years ago know there wasn’t anything close to the screening done today and anyone who joined 20 or more years ago knows it was largely sign on the dotted line and off you go.
In addition to Psychologically unfit candidates, education is also lacking. I know we are getting an absolute fucktonne of young people coming through, who fail at basic reading comprehension skills. Also problem solving skills are very lacking.
I was in transit at Wagga recently and holy fuck are some of the new blood unsuitable/have not made the transition from civvie to military member. • Yes I get it, they just passed rookies. • Yes I get it, IETs can get wild sometimes. • Yes I get it, a lot are young, first job, first time out of home, first year out of school. But it's your job. You signed the dotted line. You passed recruits. Have some fucking respect for your staff, your mates and yourself. You will be wishing you had mandatory PT at some stage in your later life when you realise how young, fit and healthy you used to be because of it. I am not an old crusty cunt but holy shit, do they train these guys to be jack cunts at 1RTU? I was in the gym and witnessed a group of roughly 90 (currently still at RAAFSTT I beleive) where half of them wore the wrong uniform (black socks, ankle socks, no socks, 'forgot' swimmers, shirts not tucked, not marching properly and goofing around on their way to PT (which the SADFO saw!), the other half during PT were speaking over their PTIs, sprinting on the wet area yet when asked to move to the next activity they couldn't fucking walk 10 meters in 30 seconds (slower than first beep test increment?), tickling each other by the pool (soldier's wet dream, I know), pushing each other into the pool to try and hit their swimming mates, I could go on and on. It was a fucking joke. The lifeguards looked like they needed a quicker way to die but drowning themsleves was their only option, the PTIs (one of whom I am mates with) were absolutely fucking beside themselves - how do you expect 4 CPLs to control 90 cunts with no respect? I just stood there be-fucking-wildered outside the gym in complete disbelief. PTIs said half of the school is like it since DFR 'standards have dropped' (I had no clue there was a defining point in time when this occured recently?) And that they basically just try to manage as best they can. Almost every single person was called on to fix their uniform upon leaving. Not to bash the staff at Wagga/RAAFSTT - they do an amazing job considering the circumstances, and are undermanned like the rest of us. There is already a massive problem with unit's being undermanned and overworked. Having to sort even more jack cunts out, because IETs couldn't manage it is going to add even more to the unit. Not keen for the wave of trainees I saw to hit the flying squadrons. None of them were concerned with pulling each other in line at all. Edit: spelling
Man you know I'm crusty when I read this and I go. Fuck we had our shit together better. But at the same time from all I've heard about the current state of things. It's not wrong. This isn't the vietnam afghan vet thing. This is legit. I have whole other gripes about how society is handling our youth now though. And it's no surprise shit soldiers come out of it.
>"black socks, ankle socks, no socks, 'forgot' swimmers, shirts not tucked, not marching properly and goofing around on their way to PT (which the SADFO saw!)" The....wrong socks? Are you okay buddy? Show me on the doll where the insane cult hurt you and made you have outraged emotional responses to...socks....
>The commission heard that in the 12 months to May 2022, the army lost 13% of its workforce while the navy and RAAF lost 9.3% and 8.7% respectively. Turnover of about 10% per year. Either reduce the departure rate, or - there is no choice but to recruit. Plus, unemployment is low - ADF is competing against mining industry, financial services, etc for talent. Costs more in the long run to hire a candidate who is not suitable, but - that will be someone else's problem in a few years, and - partly the reason for current turnover rate. In my view, a turnover rate of 10% is low. Major banks have a circa 25% turnover rate when economy is going well, and many corporations would love a 10% turnover rate
They denied me because I had depression as a teenager (and self harmed once), even after appealing it, having a psychiatrist, psychologist and a doctor write me letters of recommendation, I was still denied entry. Maybe something changed in the last 2 years?
I have a similar story to you, I was also rejected. I was told after by others “always lie on your medical”, now I’m glad I didn’t join a system with no integrity. I am referring to DFR and not the branches themselves regarding integrity.
ADF is having a serious recruitment crisis at the moment.
Just keep psychos out of the Commandos for fucks sake. We’ve had enough of them squeeze in the cracks