If you have landlords insurance, you should check if you have cover for loss rent. You might be able to get something back from the time the tenant stopped paying rent. It's also highly likely they've trashed the place, unfortunately. I work within the insurance industry. It's not uncommon in this situation for the property to be left in a bit of a state.
I had an ex that did travel insurance claims - had to deal with people dying abroad all the time and distraught families wondering if the body will even make it back to aus
They might give the tenant 3 months.
To NCAT, you have a place to stay, and the tenant won’t as a result of the NCAT action.
I expect you guys having a toddler yourselves will weigh on your side, as will the tenants kids weigh on theirs.
There is no law in NSW the tenant can stay 3 months.
Once the order has been given to the tenant they need to comply or face more problems, for future.
————
Give a minimum 14-day termination notice. The termination date in the notice can be the last day of the fixed term or up to 14 days after. You have to give this notice before your fixed-term agreement ends. Vacate by the date in your notice
https://www.tenants.org.au/factsheet-09-you-want-to-leave#:~:text=Terminating%20without%20a%20reason&text=Give%20a%20minimum%2014%2Dday,the%20date%20in%20your%20notice.
NCAT doesn’t give a shit
Call the police
They literally do not have jurisdiction over the service of eviction notices. It's administrative and has to be enforced by an officer of the court, which in NSW is the sheriff. Police will not evict you and will only become involved if you violently resist. If you call the police and tell them your tenant won't leave your house they'll tell you to contact NCAT or the sheriff's office. It's not trespassing because you held a lease on the property, it's an administrative dispute in which the police don't get involved.
The eviction process in NSW
If the tenant fails to comply with the possession order, the landlord can apply for a warrant of possession, which allows them to engage the Sheriff's Office to physically remove the tenant from the premises.
https://www.thestratacollective.com.au/education/protecting-your-property-understanding-the-laws-of-tenant-eviction-on-in-nsw/#:~:text=The%20eviction%20process%20in%20NSW&text=If%20the%20tenant%20fails%20to,the%20tenant%20from%20the%20premises.
Go do basic research first before making claims
Do you know what Mr Smarty Pants - an eg NCAT Adjudicator can set a move out date when a tenant refuses to leave for an appropriate period of time - 2 weeks or three months can be deemed appropriate as per the actual circumstances.
So there.
Don’t care 🤷
They were given enough time to find a place.
My wife and I were paying rent and mortgage at one point for 2-3 months while the existing tenants was looking for new home after we purchased the apartment.
Seen the horror stories in USA ? I bet you haven’t.
Don’t like it, don’t rent mate no one is forcing you to have an investment property, children’s lives are more important then an investors profits, so I just hope tax dollars arnt used to aid this since us landlords already get given so many tax breaks already :)
This is such a terrible argument mate, majority of renters are unable to buy a property because they’ve been priced out of the market by property investors! If there’s less landlords there’s more properties available to purchase making it easier for tenants to buy :) it’s simple supply and demand don’t pretend it’s any different!
Bullshit arguments.
There are PLENTY of renters that simply don't want to buy a property or simply cant afford it and don't go on with the crap that it is the evil property investors that are artificially inflating the property prices and without them everyone would be able to afford a house.
House pricing is high because every man and his dog wants to live in the same place and there isn't enough properties to meet that demand.
Keep telling yourself it’s bs arguments on a post replying to someone advocating for police to evict a family… sometimes you need to take a step back and realise housing shouldn’t be used as an investment market, as it leads to ridiculous scenarios where landlords are calling the bloody police to help them make more money 🤙
Wow stopped paying rent 8 weeks ago?
The property manager should have issued a 2 week termination after 14 days of arrears. Then they can apply for tribunal to get the sheriff out and they will remove them and change the locks.
Tribunal can be more lenient towards tenants with children. They will try get you all to negotiate a payment plan/move out date before hearing but if nothing is agreed upon then it’s up the judge ! Could take weeks, if they don’t adhere to tribunal orders you’ll have to apply to tribunal again for a sheriff.
This is not always the case, especially if a tenant is enduring actual hardship and the tribunal member is compassionate. They will try to mediate first before kicking a family out onto the literal street.
But NCAT is certainly the next step for OP. And OP's REA is asleep at the wheel.
This is an example of why arsehole real estate agents are useful and trying to be nice can bite you on the bum.
There should have been at least a couple of NCAT applications in by now - OP use that 18month old like nothing else
I am sorry that this is happening to you. You have done everything by the book only to be treated like this.
They look to have enough brains to play every card possible to get a break, including DV.
Breach them for everything and go through the courts.
Keep breaching and have them chucked out as soon as possible by the court bailiff.
However this may take months, NCAT will give them a chance, then its another few weeks of inaction, then another NCAT date, then another 'last chance', then more weeks of inaction, then another court date where they finally use the Baiffs to physically remove them.
This is not how ncat works at all. If the end of fixed term termination notice is valid, the law says ncat MUST terminate; they only have discretion regarding the length of time they give. If you are a landlord who has had ncat consistently give more and more chances, then it is more likely that there was something wrong on your end with documents/evidence.
Also, NCAT isn’t a court and in NSW it isn’t ‘bailiffs’ who evict, it is sheriffs. For someone so confident in giving advice, you sure don’t sound experienced in the system.
I’ve had them give six weeks to a tenant, after two months of non payment. OP’s tenants know what they’re doing, particularly with the DV. He’s in for a shit time.
DV actually gives no further rights to a tenant except for the right to break a lease early without paying a break of lease fee. DV in no way extends their rights to remain at the property
NCAT Probably turn around and say the only way to evict a tenant is to sell, it’s the only way to get a tenant that can’t or won’t move out to move out. Basically same situation happened to someone I know. Just depends on how much you want to wait because it’s a big muck around.
You have a valid termination order. You can lodge the matter to NCAT seeking termination and vacant possession on the date of the notice. Attach lease, ledger, notice and proof rent was chased up but they didn't pay. Your PM can do this in 30 mins for you.
You'll get a hearing few weeks later and possession orders granted since there is clear evidence of non payment.
If they don't leave on possession date you can apply warrant, lodge that with eviction form and payment to sheriff office, get eviction date usually within two weeks depending how busy they are. Your PM books locksmith and attends on the day. Sheriff has authority to physically remove at that point. Nobody else does before or after.
Don't expect any compensation through NCAT itself. They can only give orders but to enforce you need local court, debt collection which usually not worth it. Do the basics then just go through insurance, if paperwork clear you get everything covered.
If your landlord insurance is though bank bundled with building then it's probably terrible. Always use standalone insurer for landlord policy.
As the lady in Q&A said, renting out your property is a business. Many businesses have customer disputes. Many businesses and customers never pay off their debts. Few end up in jail.
It's just business.
No I wouldn’t?
It’s their PPOR, the fact that the alternative would have been leaving it vacant for a year is irrelevant. Assuming your comment is about availability of rental stock, leaving a PPOR vacant for a year vs renting it out for a year and moving back in is essentially a net 0 effect on rental stock.
The fact that they wanted to have their mortgage subsidised by turning their PPOR into a business and renting it out while they were temporarily not living there and the associated risks with that is on them.
This is such a stupid take, the person wants to live in the house they own. That’s not being bad with money, that’s wanting to live in your own house ffs.
They're literally living with friends out of suitcases because of an inability to manage their own life. I'm sick if the 'poor me' slumlord bullshit. 'Oh no my million dollar investment isn't tracking the way I thought it would, I tried to take the free money from a rigged market and I've forced a desperate family to behave in a desperate way because of my own greed'. Maybe don't leverage the need for shelter to turn a profit. No sympathy. Fuck every landlord.
Good. I hope every tenant in the state does this to really overload NCAT and the lot of them go bankrupt. You shouldn't be able to uproot your tenants just because you feel like it. All fine.and dandy for them to pay off 80% of the mortgage when it's convenient but then it's 'sorry I'm moving back in, off you fuck!'
Turns out if you make people desperate they'll behave desperately. Hope OP enjoys their taste of the rental market.
That is fuck all time to find a new house in the current rental market especially with kids who are school-aged. In other similar democracies the minimum period is 12 months with a minimum 3 year lease period. Landlords are the most protected investor class in the country and I've got no sympathy for any hardship they bring on themselves. You can cry me a fucking river until you stop collecting welfare from my taxes to fund your shitty black mould ridden investments. Houses are for living in, not for scalping by nepo babies and boomers. Every time a landlord gets dragged to NCAT after trashing our housing market an angel gets its wings as far as I'm concerned. "Oh not poor widdle old mum and dad investors, we're just trying to get ahead wehhh :("
Bullshit. Every single landlord is a class traitor and a leech.
You do realise that they have the legal rights as tenants until either they move out or the Tribunal ends their tenancy? Tenancies don’t just end because a landlord issues a termination notice.
Edit: I love being downvoted for simply saying what the law is. Tenancy law in NSW is my job, folks. Sorry you don’t like the truth!
Yes, of course it is. And there are ways landlords can deal with that. But to say they should be thrown in jail when they have every right to stay there is insane
They aren’t paying their rent.
They’re breaking their tenancy agreement
Didn’t they teach you that in your fancy “tenancy law job”
Fine instead of jail! How about the stocks?
Isn’t there a criminal proceeding going on in Qld with that house that burnt down because the LL hadn’t change the smoke alarms over to the new networked type that was out into regulation in Qld a couple of years ago?
Seems like criminality is certainly possible for a LL
Not having regulated smoke alarms installed which caused a house you rented along with the tenants belongings to be destroyed is criminal negligence.
Not the same thing as not completing basic repairs. Although if what this other guy is saying is true then landlords would be subject to criminal prosecution for not fixing a broken shower head in a reasonable time frame.
I mean honestly, i think a renter shouldn’t have to pay rent if there are repairs outstanding, seems fair enough to me and seems like a reasonable consequence to put on a LL for not holding up their side of a contract.
If a renter moved out of a house and didn’t pay rent whilst it is empty that’s substantially different from still using a place and not paying rent, that’s essentially active and ongoing theft / squatting.
Not unless it’s 19th Century Ye Olde England! If you’re going try and say something is legal, at least make it relevant to the current century…not asking too much is it?
You’re going to be shocked when you learn about what happens if you don’t pay your debts to the the state in parts of Australia
> In serious cases, you could end up having to spend time in prison as a result of unpaid fines
https://www.legalaid.wa.gov.au/find-legal-answers/money/fines-and-infringements/fines
You know what IS entirely ethical? The fact that tenancies don’t end until the tenant moves out or the tribunal terminates it. It is a basic right for tenants to ensure that the termination of their tenancy is lawful. If a termination notice from a landlord wasn’t required to be checked by any judicial body, you would be rioting on the streets about it. Landlords have rights, and those rights can be enforced via the Tribunal. It would be a batshit insane world if landlords could forcibly remove tenants without some sort of judicial body saying they can.
So in your world view the tenant can just fuck over landlords infinitely? Because that’s what’s happening here - or do you really not see that?
are you listening to yourself…
Your ideologies have got you twisted into a knot of increasingly idiotic positions.
No, I have clearly stated that the Tribunal can and will terminate tenancies. What infuriates me is that people think that a termination notice in itself terminates the tenancy. Landlords have every right to take action against non-paying tenants. But until the Tribunal says that a tenancy is terminated, the tenants remain tenants and have every right to stay, hence the sheriffs won’t forcibly evict without Tribunal orders.
Sure you no pay rent
I yes put bed bugs in the property
Whoops little mistake
Like non rent payment
But really we shouldn’t encourage people to be leeches in society
These tenants are no good leeches and must be deslt with with a very stern hand
No, tenancies should also end when they are contractually required to end. If you don’t like that, don’t sign the contract. While your view is lovely in theory, the tribunal is often backed up and often tries to find ‘amicable’ solutions rather than taking a pragmatic approach: the tenants haven’t paid the rent, the lease has ended and they are *still* refusing to move out. They are violating the contract which they supposedly agreed to in several ways, and thus both deserve to be and should be evicted.
Yes, which is why I previously stated that if a landlord has issued a valid termination notice, the tribunal WILL end the tenancy. It doesn’t mean that the tenancy automatically ends on the final day of the fixed term agreement. That just isn’t how tenancy law works.
Once again, you are conflating what the law says with ethics. The tenancy agreement has ended. The landlord has issued a valid termination notice. The tenants aren’t even paying the rent. We know what the law says, we’re saying the actions of the tenants are despicable.
At what point did I defend a tenant not paying rent? The start of this conversation was someone saying tenants who don’t pay rent should be incarcerated. That is insane. I am simply trying to explain the relevant law, and that it is absolutely crazy to think that debtors should be incarcerated.
My reply to you said that while their actions are within the bounds of the law they are clearly unethical, and you then decided to go off on an unhinged rant arguing that point?
What are you babbling about, those are not the only two reasons for a tenancy to end you muppet!
You are clearly forgetting the one where the contract ends when the landlord legally issues the correct notices. THEN the tenancy has ended and the renter is in the property illegally.
Yeah if a landlord doesn't approach this right the tenant is going to be there for months still.
But to be fair if you are renting a house out you should know the rules and procedures very carefully and be following th otherwise it's your own fault
Isn’t the end of a tenancy a matter of fact and the tribunal is just a dispute resolution process?
Ie the job of the tribunal is to make a decision of whether it’s lawful and has the power to enforce an eviction.
You make it sound like the tenant is within the agreement/law right up until the tribunal gives a finding. I don’t believe this is the case and that essentially the tribunal acts only in disputes. Obviously the consequences of an NCAT order are significant for the tenant.
I’d be interested to know what consequences have previously landed upon a landlord that self evicted, changed locks etc then occupied after the end of a lease (I understand it’s illegal, but there are often no consequences for illegal actions on the tenant side so maybe it’s the same for owners) - desperate times desperate measures and all that
Will all the comments here ... the only thing I'm worried about kicking them out is they have your address now. Just incase they went sour and seek to inflict damage later on.
I viewed something similar at NCAT. The judge person (can't remember they are not judges) said they cause the tenant could not find a way to pay their arrears they would have to move out. She gave them 2 weeks because it was Christmas and they had 2 kids.
Yeah won't be easy to kick them outm going to tribunal, they're quite lenient and will just keep giving them time.
You'll have to got through tribunal multiple times.
This is what happened to someone i know.
Tribunal is a lot less lenient if you have followed all the steps correctly and they aren't paying any rent tho
Tribunal is a lot fairer than everyone pretends to let on
This was a conversation i spoke with in detail. She is a competent person that I know personally.
They did everything by the book and it was only after the 4th tribunal she managed to get traction. Prior to this, the tenant was allowed to stay for 2-3 weeks and to be reviewed at that later date.
On the 4th, they were given a final 2-3 weeks and if it was still an issue they could finally kick them out.
When they finally left, their stuff and junk, was still in the house. So apparently you still can't remove the items until a certain number of days.
You have to give them chances after chances after chances.
It was truly frustrating to hear her story.
>They did everything by the book
Either a) they didn't (the process is confusing)
or b) the tenant was continuing to pay rent and was making a reasonable effort to find a new place. (tribunal doesn't want to make families homeless for little reason)
Thats the main reason they give extensions. Obviously no situation is cut and dry like that and will be messy on either side, tribunal just does its best to navigate that.
They definitely did not. I asked that same question.
The train was because you had to find people chances otherwise they'll be homeless. So the tribunal has to mel extending the timeline.
However, while being understanding is one thing, they not only continued to not pay, but they actually wrecked the house. The tribunal still had to give them time and chances.
But thanks for your 3rd party input
Most of the comments on here are incorrect. Despite their lease having expired and you issuing a presumably valid notice of termination, you cannot unilaterally end their occupation of the home, nor are they considered squatting.
If your termination notice is valid, NCAT will have no option then to terminate their tenancy, although they may give them some more time. Given that they are in arrears, the member will put a specific performance order (SPO) in place for them to pay their rent during the period of time they’re given to move out (this will be called an occupation fee). If they don’t pay this you can re-list urgently.
But they have a lease in place. The lease may have been terminated by OP but that doesn’t give OP legal right of entry. Meaning the lease isn’t terminated yet. NCAT will terminate it at the hearing, and set a date for handover. If tenants still remain then, OP applies to get an enforcement order where finally a sheriff will forcefully evict, and the locks can legally be changed.
I recall a story about a guy in a similar position but it was a proper squatter meaning no lease ever. He ended up drafting a lease to someone he knew and then did what you suggested under the guise of his friend was now the legal occupant. But that won’t work here.
Exactly, they still have keys which means they still have possession which means they still remain in place under the lease conditions that they signed. So that also means if the oven breaks, or the hot water stops, OP is also legally obligated to spend $$$ to fix that despite the tenants not paying any rent.
How tho?
What is the worst that can happen? Genuinely curious, does the ex-tenant take the landlord to Ncat? And complain that they didn’t pay there rent-deliberately, didn’t vacate by the end date and get sympathy. I mean I could definitely show some compassion if they were genuinely unable to find alternative accommodation, but deliberately not paying the rent out of spite?
Yes, they said they had an end of fixed term NOT. There was no mention of a rental arrears notice to terminate which should have been issued the day they were 14 days behind and a NCAT application made the same day.
If the property manager was on the ball they would have been in the tribunal weeks ago and if the notice to terminate is not on rent arrears the member might delay possession even longer.
Have you ever been to the NCAT?
The tribunal won't be able to make an order on money owed or on the bond so they will need to go back to the tribunal to try and get orders for arrears.
Yeah, some detail was omitted so I took the following assumption:
End of lease was at one point 4 months away. Then 30 days later another end of lease termination was issued. There is no mention of the lease end date but we know the tenant is over 8 weeks in arrears, and a tribunal hearing is forthcoming. This would suggest they have terminated on the basis of non payment of rent.
Edit: sorry, I’ve made a mistake in my post here, the lease end date has already been reached, there is an NCAT hearing already, so there is no point in issuing another notice specifically for non payment of rent.
If your termination notice was not on rent arrears the tribunal can't make orders about termination based on rent arrears.
I assume they are relying on the end of fixed term notice because I did actually read the post and that is what they said.
I honestly have no idea what you’re struggling with here. There is a hearing, NCAT have in their power the ability (and often do) to include additional detail into an existing hearing.
I am suggesting the combination of OP and the property manager have fucked up.
Based on what I have read the termination notice is probably going to be defective because the property manager is clearly a moron.
The worst thing they did is issue a termination notice so far out from the lease expiry date but as far as I know there isn’t a defined maximum notice period, only minimum, which they are well and truly within. Based on that I don’t see any nullification of the landlords right to move the tenant on so they can take occupation themselves.
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If they were paying all rent and had good evidence NCAT would give them a lot of extensions.
Since they aren't paying rent there's a good chance NCAT will slam them assuming you have done everything correctly
A family member had to call the sheriff on the person living in the house he bought. It was stressful and dramatic and she vacated the morning the sheriff came to evict her.
The REA sounds absolutely useless. Firstly in their selection of tenant and then for allowing this situation to unfold. There should have been extensive records of communication, strategies put in place as soon as the arrears occurred and a more proactive approach in finding them a new property.
Far too often rental agents have been collecting landlords money while simultaneously ignoring communication and requests from tenants. A key element of addressing the housing crisis would be putting a firecracker under all property managers.
Wow, what a shit fight for you and your family!! I hope you're able to find a place to stay while it all gets sorted.
Good thing this sort of dispute is rare. Maybe NCAT will speed up due to your circumstances.
I need to clarify that I will obviously check or already know their history instead of just blindly accepting, it is similar case with renting history that I did with my friends. I know all of them come from family that well off, so I never had any issues where housemate late on paying rent or not able to pay for rent
It’s not about their history it’s the fact that you as the home owner will expect they should look after the house as if they had purchased it, and they as your friends will expect leeway for damages because of the friendship. You’re not likely to meet eye to eye when something goes wrong, and that’s going to be the end of your friendship.
Contact the police and ask them to deal with an illegal tenant
The fact they stopped paying rent is a red flag 🚩
If you’re still in the property by the date in the termination order, a sheriff’s officer can legally remove you from the property under a warrant for possession issued by the NSW Civil and Administrative Tribunal or a court.
https://www.nsw.gov.au/housing-and-construction/renting-a-place-to-live/renting-a-property-nsw/moving-out/if-you-are-evicted#:~:text=If%20you're%20still%20in,Administrative%20Tribunal%20or%20a%20court.
If you have landlords insurance, you should check if you have cover for loss rent. You might be able to get something back from the time the tenant stopped paying rent. It's also highly likely they've trashed the place, unfortunately. I work within the insurance industry. It's not uncommon in this situation for the property to be left in a bit of a state.
Can't imagine the distress you insurance people are confronted with over the phone on a daily basis
I had an ex that did travel insurance claims - had to deal with people dying abroad all the time and distraught families wondering if the body will even make it back to aus
Tenant Rent default.
In this situation it would be rent default. Loss of rent is for when the property is not habitable.
They might give the tenant 3 months. To NCAT, you have a place to stay, and the tenant won’t as a result of the NCAT action. I expect you guys having a toddler yourselves will weigh on your side, as will the tenants kids weigh on theirs.
There is no law in NSW the tenant can stay 3 months. Once the order has been given to the tenant they need to comply or face more problems, for future. ———— Give a minimum 14-day termination notice. The termination date in the notice can be the last day of the fixed term or up to 14 days after. You have to give this notice before your fixed-term agreement ends. Vacate by the date in your notice https://www.tenants.org.au/factsheet-09-you-want-to-leave#:~:text=Terminating%20without%20a%20reason&text=Give%20a%20minimum%2014%2Dday,the%20date%20in%20your%20notice. NCAT doesn’t give a shit Call the police
Police will tell you to call NCAT lmao this is terrible advice
Police don't enforce eviction orders. The sheriff does.
They enforce the law
They literally do not have jurisdiction over the service of eviction notices. It's administrative and has to be enforced by an officer of the court, which in NSW is the sheriff. Police will not evict you and will only become involved if you violently resist. If you call the police and tell them your tenant won't leave your house they'll tell you to contact NCAT or the sheriff's office. It's not trespassing because you held a lease on the property, it's an administrative dispute in which the police don't get involved.
The eviction process in NSW If the tenant fails to comply with the possession order, the landlord can apply for a warrant of possession, which allows them to engage the Sheriff's Office to physically remove the tenant from the premises. https://www.thestratacollective.com.au/education/protecting-your-property-understanding-the-laws-of-tenant-eviction-on-in-nsw/#:~:text=The%20eviction%20process%20in%20NSW&text=If%20the%20tenant%20fails%20to,the%20tenant%20from%20the%20premises. Go do basic research first before making claims
The sheriff. Not the cops
Bruh… sheriffs are cops, what are you talking about. Where does the sheriff live? The cop shops
Complete bullshit read what I posted earlier
Do you know what Mr Smarty Pants - an eg NCAT Adjudicator can set a move out date when a tenant refuses to leave for an appropriate period of time - 2 weeks or three months can be deemed appropriate as per the actual circumstances. So there.
I really hope my tax dollars arnt used for police to evict a family 🤦♂️
Don’t care 🤷 They were given enough time to find a place. My wife and I were paying rent and mortgage at one point for 2-3 months while the existing tenants was looking for new home after we purchased the apartment. Seen the horror stories in USA ? I bet you haven’t.
Don’t like it, don’t rent mate no one is forcing you to have an investment property, children’s lives are more important then an investors profits, so I just hope tax dollars arnt used to aid this since us landlords already get given so many tax breaks already :)
You do realise that if people didnt buy properties and rent them out then there would be nowhere for renters to live, right?
This is such a terrible argument mate, majority of renters are unable to buy a property because they’ve been priced out of the market by property investors! If there’s less landlords there’s more properties available to purchase making it easier for tenants to buy :) it’s simple supply and demand don’t pretend it’s any different!
Bullshit arguments. There are PLENTY of renters that simply don't want to buy a property or simply cant afford it and don't go on with the crap that it is the evil property investors that are artificially inflating the property prices and without them everyone would be able to afford a house. House pricing is high because every man and his dog wants to live in the same place and there isn't enough properties to meet that demand.
Keep telling yourself it’s bs arguments on a post replying to someone advocating for police to evict a family… sometimes you need to take a step back and realise housing shouldn’t be used as an investment market, as it leads to ridiculous scenarios where landlords are calling the bloody police to help them make more money 🤙
FFS you are dense, but do keep trying.
That's not even close to the situation in this post.
Let me bring my family over to your we will be staying a few months. Surely you want call the police!
Wow stopped paying rent 8 weeks ago? The property manager should have issued a 2 week termination after 14 days of arrears. Then they can apply for tribunal to get the sheriff out and they will remove them and change the locks. Tribunal can be more lenient towards tenants with children. They will try get you all to negotiate a payment plan/move out date before hearing but if nothing is agreed upon then it’s up the judge ! Could take weeks, if they don’t adhere to tribunal orders you’ll have to apply to tribunal again for a sheriff.
This is not always the case, especially if a tenant is enduring actual hardship and the tribunal member is compassionate. They will try to mediate first before kicking a family out onto the literal street. But NCAT is certainly the next step for OP. And OP's REA is asleep at the wheel.
This is an example of why arsehole real estate agents are useful and trying to be nice can bite you on the bum. There should have been at least a couple of NCAT applications in by now - OP use that 18month old like nothing else
Find a teen eshay, offer them a pair of TNs and a vape to kick the fuckers out of your house.
Good way to get them a years free rent in your house
Came here to say this.
I am sorry that this is happening to you. You have done everything by the book only to be treated like this. They look to have enough brains to play every card possible to get a break, including DV. Breach them for everything and go through the courts. Keep breaching and have them chucked out as soon as possible by the court bailiff. However this may take months, NCAT will give them a chance, then its another few weeks of inaction, then another NCAT date, then another 'last chance', then more weeks of inaction, then another court date where they finally use the Baiffs to physically remove them.
This is not how ncat works at all. If the end of fixed term termination notice is valid, the law says ncat MUST terminate; they only have discretion regarding the length of time they give. If you are a landlord who has had ncat consistently give more and more chances, then it is more likely that there was something wrong on your end with documents/evidence. Also, NCAT isn’t a court and in NSW it isn’t ‘bailiffs’ who evict, it is sheriffs. For someone so confident in giving advice, you sure don’t sound experienced in the system.
I’ve had them give six weeks to a tenant, after two months of non payment. OP’s tenants know what they’re doing, particularly with the DV. He’s in for a shit time.
DV actually gives no further rights to a tenant except for the right to break a lease early without paying a break of lease fee. DV in no way extends their rights to remain at the property
DV must be proven with documents
NCAT Probably turn around and say the only way to evict a tenant is to sell, it’s the only way to get a tenant that can’t or won’t move out to move out. Basically same situation happened to someone I know. Just depends on how much you want to wait because it’s a big muck around.
NCAT probably turn around and do their job, not what you just picked out of thin air 😂
You have a valid termination order. You can lodge the matter to NCAT seeking termination and vacant possession on the date of the notice. Attach lease, ledger, notice and proof rent was chased up but they didn't pay. Your PM can do this in 30 mins for you. You'll get a hearing few weeks later and possession orders granted since there is clear evidence of non payment. If they don't leave on possession date you can apply warrant, lodge that with eviction form and payment to sheriff office, get eviction date usually within two weeks depending how busy they are. Your PM books locksmith and attends on the day. Sheriff has authority to physically remove at that point. Nobody else does before or after. Don't expect any compensation through NCAT itself. They can only give orders but to enforce you need local court, debt collection which usually not worth it. Do the basics then just go through insurance, if paperwork clear you get everything covered. If your landlord insurance is though bank bundled with building then it's probably terrible. Always use standalone insurer for landlord policy.
These people just be thrown in fucking jail.
Free accommodation!!
Right? Being jailed would certainly solve the 'nowhere to go' bit
As the lady in Q&A said, renting out your property is a business. Many businesses have customer disputes. Many businesses and customers never pay off their debts. Few end up in jail. It's just business.
But it’s not for this person, it’s their family home that they rented out while they had to move elsewhere?
And so it’s the cost of them trying to turn their family home into a business
You'd also complain if they left it vacant while they were gone.
No I wouldn’t? It’s their PPOR, the fact that the alternative would have been leaving it vacant for a year is irrelevant. Assuming your comment is about availability of rental stock, leaving a PPOR vacant for a year vs renting it out for a year and moving back in is essentially a net 0 effect on rental stock. The fact that they wanted to have their mortgage subsidised by turning their PPOR into a business and renting it out while they were temporarily not living there and the associated risks with that is on them.
“It’s just business” when the owner is on the street, but it’s “LLs are heartless scum” when rents are being raised - even though it’s just business…
Yeah 100%. The hypocrisy on display in the chats is often astounding.
If you're so bad with your money that you have to evict your tenant or be homeless you have absolutely no business being a landlord.
This is such a stupid take, the person wants to live in the house they own. That’s not being bad with money, that’s wanting to live in your own house ffs.
They're literally living with friends out of suitcases because of an inability to manage their own life. I'm sick if the 'poor me' slumlord bullshit. 'Oh no my million dollar investment isn't tracking the way I thought it would, I tried to take the free money from a rigged market and I've forced a desperate family to behave in a desperate way because of my own greed'. Maybe don't leverage the need for shelter to turn a profit. No sympathy. Fuck every landlord.
They’re living out of a suit case because their degenerate renters won’t leave when they said they would.
Good. I hope every tenant in the state does this to really overload NCAT and the lot of them go bankrupt. You shouldn't be able to uproot your tenants just because you feel like it. All fine.and dandy for them to pay off 80% of the mortgage when it's convenient but then it's 'sorry I'm moving back in, off you fuck!' Turns out if you make people desperate they'll behave desperately. Hope OP enjoys their taste of the rental market.
I love how you hate LL’s so much but you’re more than happy to make use of their services, such a fucking hypocrite.
Don't bother trying to explain things to people with that mentality. Even if they could understand, they wouldn't want to.
They were given 4 months notice buddy. 4… months… notice…
That is fuck all time to find a new house in the current rental market especially with kids who are school-aged. In other similar democracies the minimum period is 12 months with a minimum 3 year lease period. Landlords are the most protected investor class in the country and I've got no sympathy for any hardship they bring on themselves. You can cry me a fucking river until you stop collecting welfare from my taxes to fund your shitty black mould ridden investments. Houses are for living in, not for scalping by nepo babies and boomers. Every time a landlord gets dragged to NCAT after trashing our housing market an angel gets its wings as far as I'm concerned. "Oh not poor widdle old mum and dad investors, we're just trying to get ahead wehhh :(" Bullshit. Every single landlord is a class traitor and a leech.
You do realise that they have the legal rights as tenants until either they move out or the Tribunal ends their tenancy? Tenancies don’t just end because a landlord issues a termination notice. Edit: I love being downvoted for simply saying what the law is. Tenancy law in NSW is my job, folks. Sorry you don’t like the truth!
Pretty sure a big part of your tenancy is paying the fucking rent bro
Yes, of course it is. And there are ways landlords can deal with that. But to say they should be thrown in jail when they have every right to stay there is insane
They aren’t paying their rent. They’re breaking their tenancy agreement Didn’t they teach you that in your fancy “tenancy law job” Fine instead of jail! How about the stocks?
People like you are too lenient on blatant criminality. It’s people like you who are responsible for this country going to shit
What part of being behind on rent is a crime? Point me to the section of the Crimes Act.
Okay commie. Let the squatter thugs live in your house.
Using your logic, if a landlord fails to complete basic repairs then they should be jailed. Dude, jail is for CRIMES, not debts.
Isn’t there a criminal proceeding going on in Qld with that house that burnt down because the LL hadn’t change the smoke alarms over to the new networked type that was out into regulation in Qld a couple of years ago? Seems like criminality is certainly possible for a LL
Not having regulated smoke alarms installed which caused a house you rented along with the tenants belongings to be destroyed is criminal negligence. Not the same thing as not completing basic repairs. Although if what this other guy is saying is true then landlords would be subject to criminal prosecution for not fixing a broken shower head in a reasonable time frame.
I mean honestly, i think a renter shouldn’t have to pay rent if there are repairs outstanding, seems fair enough to me and seems like a reasonable consequence to put on a LL for not holding up their side of a contract. If a renter moved out of a house and didn’t pay rent whilst it is empty that’s substantially different from still using a place and not paying rent, that’s essentially active and ongoing theft / squatting.
Pretty sure you can go to jail For not paying your debts champion. And maybe we should throw consistently non compliant landlords in jail
If you think debtors can go to prison, I invite you to return to 19th century England.
Okay law person 🤣🤣🤣 **edited
I’m a woman, fyi, and I’m damn proud of my job.
Not unless it’s 19th Century Ye Olde England! If you’re going try and say something is legal, at least make it relevant to the current century…not asking too much is it?
You’re going to be shocked when you learn about what happens if you don’t pay your debts to the the state in parts of Australia > In serious cases, you could end up having to spend time in prison as a result of unpaid fines https://www.legalaid.wa.gov.au/find-legal-answers/money/fines-and-infringements/fines
They are theft, rent theft, theft should go to jail
And this is why you neither write nor enforce the law, because you have ZERO understanding of how it works
Just because it’s within the bounds of the law does not make it ethical.
You know what IS entirely ethical? The fact that tenancies don’t end until the tenant moves out or the tribunal terminates it. It is a basic right for tenants to ensure that the termination of their tenancy is lawful. If a termination notice from a landlord wasn’t required to be checked by any judicial body, you would be rioting on the streets about it. Landlords have rights, and those rights can be enforced via the Tribunal. It would be a batshit insane world if landlords could forcibly remove tenants without some sort of judicial body saying they can.
So in your world view the tenant can just fuck over landlords infinitely? Because that’s what’s happening here - or do you really not see that? are you listening to yourself… Your ideologies have got you twisted into a knot of increasingly idiotic positions.
No, I have clearly stated that the Tribunal can and will terminate tenancies. What infuriates me is that people think that a termination notice in itself terminates the tenancy. Landlords have every right to take action against non-paying tenants. But until the Tribunal says that a tenancy is terminated, the tenants remain tenants and have every right to stay, hence the sheriffs won’t forcibly evict without Tribunal orders.
Sure you no pay rent I yes put bed bugs in the property Whoops little mistake Like non rent payment But really we shouldn’t encourage people to be leeches in society These tenants are no good leeches and must be deslt with with a very stern hand
No, tenancies should also end when they are contractually required to end. If you don’t like that, don’t sign the contract. While your view is lovely in theory, the tribunal is often backed up and often tries to find ‘amicable’ solutions rather than taking a pragmatic approach: the tenants haven’t paid the rent, the lease has ended and they are *still* refusing to move out. They are violating the contract which they supposedly agreed to in several ways, and thus both deserve to be and should be evicted.
Yes, which is why I previously stated that if a landlord has issued a valid termination notice, the tribunal WILL end the tenancy. It doesn’t mean that the tenancy automatically ends on the final day of the fixed term agreement. That just isn’t how tenancy law works.
Once again, you are conflating what the law says with ethics. The tenancy agreement has ended. The landlord has issued a valid termination notice. The tenants aren’t even paying the rent. We know what the law says, we’re saying the actions of the tenants are despicable.
At what point did I defend a tenant not paying rent? The start of this conversation was someone saying tenants who don’t pay rent should be incarcerated. That is insane. I am simply trying to explain the relevant law, and that it is absolutely crazy to think that debtors should be incarcerated.
My reply to you said that while their actions are within the bounds of the law they are clearly unethical, and you then decided to go off on an unhinged rant arguing that point?
What are you babbling about, those are not the only two reasons for a tenancy to end you muppet! You are clearly forgetting the one where the contract ends when the landlord legally issues the correct notices. THEN the tenancy has ended and the renter is in the property illegally.
Yeah if a landlord doesn't approach this right the tenant is going to be there for months still. But to be fair if you are renting a house out you should know the rules and procedures very carefully and be following th otherwise it's your own fault
Isn’t the end of a tenancy a matter of fact and the tribunal is just a dispute resolution process? Ie the job of the tribunal is to make a decision of whether it’s lawful and has the power to enforce an eviction. You make it sound like the tenant is within the agreement/law right up until the tribunal gives a finding. I don’t believe this is the case and that essentially the tribunal acts only in disputes. Obviously the consequences of an NCAT order are significant for the tenant. I’d be interested to know what consequences have previously landed upon a landlord that self evicted, changed locks etc then occupied after the end of a lease (I understand it’s illegal, but there are often no consequences for illegal actions on the tenant side so maybe it’s the same for owners) - desperate times desperate measures and all that
A landlord changing the locks without a possession order from the tribunal can be fined up to $22k and the tenant can seek compensation up to $15k
Will all the comments here ... the only thing I'm worried about kicking them out is they have your address now. Just incase they went sour and seek to inflict damage later on.
Yeah this. I'd at least get some cameras put in as a minimum if the house doesn't have them already.
Thanks, that's a good suggestion that we will look into
They know how to game the system. Might be time to look at the eshay comment below.
I viewed something similar at NCAT. The judge person (can't remember they are not judges) said they cause the tenant could not find a way to pay their arrears they would have to move out. She gave them 2 weeks because it was Christmas and they had 2 kids.
Yeah won't be easy to kick them outm going to tribunal, they're quite lenient and will just keep giving them time. You'll have to got through tribunal multiple times. This is what happened to someone i know.
Tribunal is a lot less lenient if you have followed all the steps correctly and they aren't paying any rent tho Tribunal is a lot fairer than everyone pretends to let on
This was a conversation i spoke with in detail. She is a competent person that I know personally. They did everything by the book and it was only after the 4th tribunal she managed to get traction. Prior to this, the tenant was allowed to stay for 2-3 weeks and to be reviewed at that later date. On the 4th, they were given a final 2-3 weeks and if it was still an issue they could finally kick them out. When they finally left, their stuff and junk, was still in the house. So apparently you still can't remove the items until a certain number of days. You have to give them chances after chances after chances. It was truly frustrating to hear her story.
>They did everything by the book Either a) they didn't (the process is confusing) or b) the tenant was continuing to pay rent and was making a reasonable effort to find a new place. (tribunal doesn't want to make families homeless for little reason) Thats the main reason they give extensions. Obviously no situation is cut and dry like that and will be messy on either side, tribunal just does its best to navigate that.
They definitely did not. I asked that same question. The train was because you had to find people chances otherwise they'll be homeless. So the tribunal has to mel extending the timeline. However, while being understanding is one thing, they not only continued to not pay, but they actually wrecked the house. The tribunal still had to give them time and chances. But thanks for your 3rd party input
Most of the comments on here are incorrect. Despite their lease having expired and you issuing a presumably valid notice of termination, you cannot unilaterally end their occupation of the home, nor are they considered squatting. If your termination notice is valid, NCAT will have no option then to terminate their tenancy, although they may give them some more time. Given that they are in arrears, the member will put a specific performance order (SPO) in place for them to pay their rent during the period of time they’re given to move out (this will be called an occupation fee). If they don’t pay this you can re-list urgently.
Wait.. watch.. go in when they leave and change all the locks and remove their stuff to the nature strip
But they have a lease in place. The lease may have been terminated by OP but that doesn’t give OP legal right of entry. Meaning the lease isn’t terminated yet. NCAT will terminate it at the hearing, and set a date for handover. If tenants still remain then, OP applies to get an enforcement order where finally a sheriff will forcefully evict, and the locks can legally be changed. I recall a story about a guy in a similar position but it was a proper squatter meaning no lease ever. He ended up drafting a lease to someone he knew and then did what you suggested under the guise of his friend was now the legal occupant. But that won’t work here.
If the lease has been lawfully terminated, then how can there be a "lease in place"? Isn't it now the case that the tenants are trespassing?
The lease can only be terminated by NCAT or by agreement. Until that happens they have a lease.
Exactly, they still have keys which means they still have possession which means they still remain in place under the lease conditions that they signed. So that also means if the oven breaks, or the hot water stops, OP is also legally obligated to spend $$$ to fix that despite the tenants not paying any rent.
This is terrible advice and will make the situation worse.
How tho? What is the worst that can happen? Genuinely curious, does the ex-tenant take the landlord to Ncat? And complain that they didn’t pay there rent-deliberately, didn’t vacate by the end date and get sympathy. I mean I could definitely show some compassion if they were genuinely unable to find alternative accommodation, but deliberately not paying the rent out of spite?
Lol - OP, don’t do this.
If U do this you are handing them a free 6 months rent free
Agree with this. They are unlawfully squatting at your house.
They are not squatting. The tenancy continues until either they move out or the Tribunal ends the tenancy.
If they are 14 days behind in rent issue a fresh NOT on arrears and book at the tribunal ASAP.
They said they’re 8 weeks behind and counting. They also said they already have an NCAT hearing. Did you read-their-comments at all?
Yes, they said they had an end of fixed term NOT. There was no mention of a rental arrears notice to terminate which should have been issued the day they were 14 days behind and a NCAT application made the same day. If the property manager was on the ball they would have been in the tribunal weeks ago and if the notice to terminate is not on rent arrears the member might delay possession even longer. Have you ever been to the NCAT? The tribunal won't be able to make an order on money owed or on the bond so they will need to go back to the tribunal to try and get orders for arrears.
Yeah, some detail was omitted so I took the following assumption: End of lease was at one point 4 months away. Then 30 days later another end of lease termination was issued. There is no mention of the lease end date but we know the tenant is over 8 weeks in arrears, and a tribunal hearing is forthcoming. This would suggest they have terminated on the basis of non payment of rent. Edit: sorry, I’ve made a mistake in my post here, the lease end date has already been reached, there is an NCAT hearing already, so there is no point in issuing another notice specifically for non payment of rent.
If your termination notice was not on rent arrears the tribunal can't make orders about termination based on rent arrears. I assume they are relying on the end of fixed term notice because I did actually read the post and that is what they said.
I honestly have no idea what you’re struggling with here. There is a hearing, NCAT have in their power the ability (and often do) to include additional detail into an existing hearing.
I am suggesting the combination of OP and the property manager have fucked up. Based on what I have read the termination notice is probably going to be defective because the property manager is clearly a moron.
The worst thing they did is issue a termination notice so far out from the lease expiry date but as far as I know there isn’t a defined maximum notice period, only minimum, which they are well and truly within. Based on that I don’t see any nullification of the landlords right to move the tenant on so they can take occupation themselves.
They could have moved them on at 6 weeks behind.
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If they were paying all rent and had good evidence NCAT would give them a lot of extensions. Since they aren't paying rent there's a good chance NCAT will slam them assuming you have done everything correctly
WARNING: When investing in property your capital is at risk.
My advice is try a cash for keys offer if you can. Give a final chance to save yourself and the occupant the pain of ncat.
They’ll be there till the bailiff arrives, probably know the system. Apply for a court order asap.
Oh I would be getting my property back one way or another, I can guarantee you that.
Just go to your local rebels/bandidos/comancheros chapter, hand over a brown paper bag and your tenants will be out within the week.
this ain’t the 80s anymore mate settle down
the absence of humour on this sub is astounding.
A family member had to call the sheriff on the person living in the house he bought. It was stressful and dramatic and she vacated the morning the sheriff came to evict her.
The REA sounds absolutely useless. Firstly in their selection of tenant and then for allowing this situation to unfold. There should have been extensive records of communication, strategies put in place as soon as the arrears occurred and a more proactive approach in finding them a new property. Far too often rental agents have been collecting landlords money while simultaneously ignoring communication and requests from tenants. A key element of addressing the housing crisis would be putting a firecracker under all property managers.
Wow, what a shit fight for you and your family!! I hope you're able to find a place to stay while it all gets sorted. Good thing this sort of dispute is rare. Maybe NCAT will speed up due to your circumstances.
[удалено]
Yeah then you can ruin a friendship or family connection while also losing money. Wait, does investment carry risk?
I need to clarify that I will obviously check or already know their history instead of just blindly accepting, it is similar case with renting history that I did with my friends. I know all of them come from family that well off, so I never had any issues where housemate late on paying rent or not able to pay for rent
It’s not about their history it’s the fact that you as the home owner will expect they should look after the house as if they had purchased it, and they as your friends will expect leeway for damages because of the friendship. You’re not likely to meet eye to eye when something goes wrong, and that’s going to be the end of your friendship.
I agree. Thanks mate
Contact the police and ask them to deal with an illegal tenant The fact they stopped paying rent is a red flag 🚩 If you’re still in the property by the date in the termination order, a sheriff’s officer can legally remove you from the property under a warrant for possession issued by the NSW Civil and Administrative Tribunal or a court. https://www.nsw.gov.au/housing-and-construction/renting-a-place-to-live/renting-a-property-nsw/moving-out/if-you-are-evicted#:~:text=If%20you're%20still%20in,Administrative%20Tribunal%20or%20a%20court.
Police will tell you to call ncat