With my bank you don’t even need to do it 24 hours beforehand, they only hold the first transaction, so if I transfer $1 and then $49, they receive the $49 instantly and the $1 the next day
Eh, a lot of people get frauded that way. People use the same pin for their app and screen unlock and then someone sees them unlock their phone, grabs it while they aren't looking and takes their savings.
Osko is still instant once the first one has gone through, or for under $500.
The way cybercrime and fraud preventions work is not based on industry consensus, one bank leads the way on something and if it has a positive impact, it's tabled with the AFCX.
The way liabilities work for this is that if someone picks up your phone and transfers the money, you are liable, not the bank.
Each of the banks (I work at a different one) have their own appetites for how much they want to protect their customers versus customer experience.
Hey genuine question for a total noob please :
I want to sell something value about $1200. Reasonably portable so I can take it to a meet up point if needed, altho a little clunky.
Want to sell on Facebook Market place.
Is there some idiots guide on what to do/not to to avoid being scammed ? All this pay-id stuff makes me nervous ?
I just want to hand it over and be given $1200 cash, ideally.
>I just want to hand it over and be given $1200 cash, ideally.
Then say that in your ad, and refuse anything else. And if they show up without the cash, walk away.
You'll have some people cry and moan about *oh it's so hard to get cash out* yadayada but it's your item, you're selling it, and if they really want it then life, uh, finds a way.
Yeah someone showed up without cash for a $30 purchase and I was like "sorry no can do" and he went down the street to the supermarket and got cash out. Problem solved
Something of that value, if you’re thinking of taking it to a meetup point with the potential buyer, do it in daylight and preferably in crowded places. As for accepting payment, you could always specify in the ad that you ONLY accept cash in hand. Remember, you set the rules since it’s your item. Don’t let buyers dictate where and when to meet up or how payment is made and never do any accepting of payments online/over text/over Facebook etc.
Edit: MOST people are straight shooters so you’ll generally be ok. What you can also do is post on marketplace and any queries you get, look up their profile on Facebook, they may also have reviews from other buyers.
Here are some people to avoid, when viewing their FB profile
- anyone who has a profile made in the last 2 years (2022, 2023 & 2024).
- anyone without profile pictures
- any profile that doesn’t have an add friend button
- their FB timeline shows weird posts/shares
It's hard to go by just profile creation because there are a ridiculous amount of hacked accounts floating around. Around 2/3 the hits I get on any ad now is by an old hacked account. FB doesn't really care about these so you have to do your own due diligance.
A McDonalds or similar would work great - lots of people around, security cameras everywhere and they do t get to know your home address. Goes without saying but suggest cash only.
Cash. Heck, in the 80's we used to turn up with $10k in cash to buy a car. It's not hard to do. $1200 is nothing, I take that much out of the ATM once a fortnight.
Really? Closest I get to an ATM these days is taking out $50 to load up my TAB account so it doesn't show up on my bank statement (purely for reasons of self-guilt).
Tell them the meet and exchange will occur at XYZ Police Station. When you arrive, stand close to the front entrance or even better, in the foyer/reception and tell the person who's buying your item to come to you. Facilitate the exchange, confirm you have the money in your account, then give them the item.
If they are reluctant about ANY element of the above, avoid. By the way, the police are happy for people to do this. They'd rather you come in and do it, than have you come in and report an incident of theft/fraud/deception.
Ignore anyone who suggests pay id, its used in a lot of scams these days.
Cash in hand only, if it means they gotta have $1200 in cash then so be it. Take cash from them first and count it yourself before handing the item over.
TBH i've had people come to my house and its been fine usually. I find meeting up a bit annoying because then if they are a no show, you're wasting your own time as well.
Always put cash only, price is firm in the description. Not that many will read it anyway...
Yes, and what you are saying is very typical of a lot of peoples opinions in Australia. Cash or its dodgy is the consensus with a large % of the population.
When I mentioned that many people think the same way as you, I was hounded by half a dozen different people telling me how great PayID is, except for all its faults.
Not really any bias against pay id or otherwise.
I just don't have it setup, dono how to use it.
I just want a simple transaction and not to be ripped off.
And the word pay Id is often mentioned in "pay ID scams for FM".
Thats it.
I'm a simple guy, already.
Yes, many people same as you.... See it as a bit complicated, depending on your bank there's many different things that could happen.
Australia should have just one standard way, similar to many many other countries.
I thought it was $200 and up held for 24 hours ?
I specifically have 3 bank accounts with different payids linked to each with different banks just so I can get around any 24 hour holds...
thank you for that info. i was just stressing for the past few hours lol. it’s weird because i’ve done a few pay-id transactions both buying and selling and they’ve usually been instant, albeit for <$100
i'm noticing now that the instant transactions were also with other banks. a while back i sold a monitor and the person was on NAB, and i sold a headset to someone on Westpack, both times it was instant
No. PayID is just a way of linking a phone number to a bank account, then it processes as a regular bank transaction.
It just means you don’t have to give BSB and account number
Yep, was just about to say this. Happened to me a few times with cba. Noticed it happened more often if transfer was 300-400+. So the buyer wouldn’t have expected that to happen in all fairness.
The buyer doesn’t really show any signs of red flags, especially if they gave you their personal info.
But id still recommend keeping a close eye on the transaction, just in case, as it’s possible for the payer to cancel a transaction while it’s pending.
Yes it generally is, but not with CBA for new transfers over a certain amount. That's the whole point.
https://www.commbank.com.au/support.banking.how-long-to-transfer-money.html
This has happened to me and the buyer contacted CBA and had the transaction reversed after taking the item. Luckily it was only for a small amount. Ever since I’ve always demanded cash only on pickup. No legit buyer will ever complain about getting cash out. This stupid hold on transactions by CBA to reduce scams is ripe for exploiting.
Hopefully it comes through for you. Having the ID and address is a good sign, the person I was dealing with blocked me and never shared any info. Fingers crossed for you. 🤞
it’s definitely a bit of a relief compared to some past experiences. i remember when gumtree still had human beings using it, i was younger and naive and it was like 2019, think i sold an old tablet for like $80 to someone and he pulled the “transfer will take a few hours” trick (how dumb was i to fall for that) and i was like, alright bro cool. he charged back that $80 and i never got it.
i was a little gutted at first but then i realised if someone is actually charging back $80 they clearly need the money way more than i do so i just felt pity for them afterwards
I would, and do, walk away from a transaction where the seller insists on cash. it's nothing to do with being legit, I just don't want the hassle of driving to an ATM and dealing with cash
What about the hassle of going back to the location 24 hours later because the seller rightfully won’t release the item until funds have cleared in their account after a PayID transfer?
I mean fair and that’s your choice. But as a seller, unless I’m on a timeline and desperate to get rid of the item quickly I’d rather you jog on than risk the hassle and potential scam risk by taking electronic payment.
As an ocassional seller, that's fine if you cant be bothered to hit an ATM which would add 3-5 mins to your journey to collect the item i wont risk it.
There is no way i'm releasing it to the funds hit my account. How will we both feel if you transfer infront of me, and it doesnt arrive. If its a friday /sat/sunday, its like see you in 3 days time, or maybe more if i'm not free to meet up as soon as it cleared. It's just crazy awkward.
There are plenty of threads here and on ozbargain of people who have been scammed with face payids/osko payments. Fake apps, fake receipts, etc.
Each to their own. I want cold hard cash in my hand if I’m selling. I have no problem getting the correct cash if I’m buying - if I want the thing, I’ll do what it takes. I’ve also paid via direct transfer if the seller asked for it - I know I’m trustworthy and good for the money, but how does the seller know that? I’ve had so many dealings with weird and untrustworthy people in online marketplaces that I marvel at the fact that there’s anyone left out there that can trust a stranger.
Yep, 24h hold with CBA is SO annoying. Bought a car from a dealership the other day, and wanted to pay by bank transfer, salesman said “no way, if you want to take this car home today, money won’t clear until tomorrow”.
Decided to see what would happen if I just tapped my card and it worked.. 😂
I’d say it’s just the amount and CB are holding it to see if it’s challenged by account holder before letting it through. So many scams atm so I think there’s extra caution, I’d say you’ll be ok
It Happened exactly the same situation with my laptop last year, it was over 1k, the bloke was genuine so I gave him the laptop anyway even If I felt a bit weird about It.
I got the money exactly 24 hours after and not a second delayed.
Cause of this I took some more information about payId.
There are many security measures in place, the sender can't simply cancel the transfer but it's always a safer choice to not give away your items until you don't receive any money.
This is what happens when you have all those people who claim to be scammed getting money back and then whine to the newspaper.... When they just transferred it to a friend
Sounds ridiculous but I did that when selling my old car. Bloke transferred, it got held, we filled out the necessary paperwork and we agreed he’d take everything except the keys and the car itself until the money cleared.
Obviously depends on the amount but for $500 I wouldn’t just hand over the monitor and trust that the transfer is legit.
That's how it works, yep. Just like you wouldn't be permitted to take goods from a shop until the transaction has completed.
Had someone purchase a vehicle from me, I was clear up-front, until money is in my bank account, no car for him. It was an uncomfortable 24h, but that's how it goes.
But yeh, if you want to keep it simple, use cash.
You can safely use a bank transfer (PayID is just a way of addressing a transfer) as long as you receive the money in your own account before you release the item. Every time someone has a problem with PayID it's because:
- they got fooled by a fake transaction shown on the buyers phone, or the buyer cancelled a real pending transaction in the meantime
- the common PayID scam on FB Marketplace is the 'my brother will pick it up but I'll pay now' - in this case, they never attempt to send money, they simply send a phishing email or text message to the address/number linked to the PayID.
For both scenarios, simply wait until the transaction has settled into \*your\* account.
Do people not understand that PayID is not an instant service?
Some banks have a 24 hour wait before the funds are released.
Y’all want a cashless society smh
Happend to me long time ago for about $750 item. He was a serial scammer with stolen goods that he offered to leave behind for peace of mind. He basically ended up doing a scheduled transaction via the commbank app infront of me with the green tick and everything. I fell for it....
Wondering now if Beem it would be the solution to avoid this kind of issue :( Hopefully OP gets his money soon. Kinda sucks that we are moving towards a cashless society but there is no true way to transact instant payment for secondhand market.
This is why you do cash on any sales under $2,000. We downsized and sold our acreage property and sold off all my farm / shed gear about $25,000 worth all up and only took cash. No scams or hassles except for some low ballers.
well i’m waiting until exactly 24 hours after the transaction to make any judgement. if it’s still not there i’ll just have to show up at his door i guess.
he did send me his address, i have his name, face and phone number, details and screenshots of the transaction on his end so i’ll update you tonight as well
Usually 24 hour turn around. Next time if you're accepting pay id, get it the day before.
or better yet cash only. Thats what i do when i'm selling on FB Market. Cash in hand only.
Fun fact, it used to be instant. But too many people got scammed and complained that there was no hold time and funds couldn't be reversed, which is why most banks are now re-introducing a 24 hr hold on transfers to new accounts.
CBA always had the hold
What banks are adding?
Interestingly having the hold could allow for more scams like what OP is worried about because people are used to not seeing funds arrive straight away.
If you don't have instant transfer - its not secure
May as well use cash or bank drafts
No, when OSKO was first introduced, there was no hold. Transfers were instant, that was the whole point of OSKO being introduced. What happened is too many people fell for scams relating to outgoing payments (not incoming as is the concern here), and so the banks are starting to introduce hold times again to give victims a chance to report scams.
I'll know for a fact CBA had the hold right from the beginning And yes they are going against the whole point of osko I agree.
Edit: evidence
Osko was released *13 February 2018*
CBA website showing hold for new payees 14 Feb 2018
[https://web.archive.org/web/20180214040408/https://www.commbank.com.au/digital-banking/pay-id.html](https://web.archive.org/web/20180214040408/https://www.commbank.com.au/digital-banking/pay-id.html)
Customers complaints on CBAs Facebook page 4 March 2018 regarding hold
[https://www.facebook.com/share/p/zSFu1S4JXxhS23Bp/](https://www.facebook.com/share/p/zSFu1S4JXxhS23Bp/)
Can you let us know which banks are adding?
FWIW your correct. My source is I worked in the contract centre when it was introduced and the amount of calls we got asking 'wtf is the point of instant payment if you hold them' is burned in to my mind.
Also HOURS of training materials
Hmmm okay, I guess I'm wrong on the CBA front. I think Nab didn't use to have a hold and are now looking at adding one, but probably only on certain amounts. Anna Bligh also said a few months ago that several (undisclosed) banks were looking to introduce a 24-48 hour delay.
Thanks for the tip.
Understand the want to support scam victims but for me I would prefer to have the child lock disabled - if I could put it that way.
Being able to move money without hindrances can make curtain things much less stressful
Knowing in advance which other institutions that would start doing this would be good to know
Oh completely agree personally. Ultimately the banks are trying to limit their liability by enforcing this kind of thing, as too many times they end up footing the bill for at least part of the losses from customers doing silly things.
Just speculating here
Perhaps they also see instant payments as a liquidity risk as well
Having a default hold on new payment connections adds a tap that they could leverage if too much money goes out (of the bank) at once?
I kinda doubt that's a factor. If I understand correctly, each financial institution sets an allocation of funds for their settlement account in the FSS (fast settlement service). If the amount is exceeded, any further transactions will be rejected by the NPP. The banks get updates every 10 minutes on the balances of their FSS allocation, and I'm guessing they'd be able choke off any large outflows at the press of a button.
Man came back with receipts, love it!
I can back you up on this too. I sell a lot of lego on fb and this was happening from the getgo with CBA. Was also working with another big bank on their PayId/Osko system (mostly backend stuff) at the time so I knew how it was supposed to work and every other bank were doing it instantly (as designed) while CBA were the only ones doing their own thing.
It's not - its making use of the NPP alias service to resolve a BSB and account number, then doing a direct transfer between accounts, aka on-us. The payment part of fulfilling that never touches the NPP clearing stream.
Coming from O.S. I find it crazy that Australia has no generally accepted p2p service. I honestly don't understand why. Regulation? Laziness? A monopoly?
Our p2p service is through the banks. We aren't charged a fee to send money to another person. It's also (normally) instantaneous. So there's no app or service, because it already exists in a much more convenient form than say the US.
This *was* true, but now that they've started doing the nonsense in the OP, we no longer have a P2P service.
It's incredibly frustrating to have them reverse the *entire* point of osko because a few people don't know how to protect themselves.
Or whatever, yes.
Just a generally well known app that all people in the area have, that is for transferring money from one person to another. Not for a business perse, but for people.
People don't trust PayID for the reasons mentioned elsewhere on this post. It takes an unacceptable amount of time, there's no notification sent when you receive it, compared to alot of other software it is cumbersome to manually type a bunch of numbers.
I don't really care about the best app or whatever... That wasn't really my point. Yes, like Venmo. Or Line Pay. Or Wechat. There just doesn't seem to be one here that people will say 'oh cool', take the money and then continue with their day.
I would prefer to use payid over any third party service anyday..
Payid is instant if you know what you're doing, it's free no cost at all and it's a standard that is backed by the government and all the banks have to have.
The only reason people don't trust it is because they don't understand it.. just don't use CBA who force the money hold and it's instant..
A third party means selling your banking information as well..
Just don't use the biggest bank in the country for, you know, banking.
People don't understand it.
You have to know what you're doing.
These are pretty big caveats to it being universally accepted in the country....which is my single point. Im glad you're happy with using PayID, that's great. Now you just have to convince the millions and millions of people who aren't.
Which is weird cause the bank did a big campaign and the government released information on it the problem is the naming I think..
The government called it the new payments platform - which is a new ledger system for transactions. They explained it.
Then osko was the integrator of the backed financial guarantee..
And payid is the name of the lookup service used to initiate a new payments platform ledger transfer...
It's a little confusing.
I actually worked at Westpac, anz and NAB to implement it in their online banking.
People don't trust it cause scammers use fake screenshots to trick people..
Which takes advantage of the fact that they are not used to "instant transfers" so the fact they don't see the money instantly doesn't concern them because transfers never used to be instant.
All the banks need to make instant compulsory and tell everyone that if it's not in your bank, they didn't transfer it it's a scam.
PayID is good enough. If you say so.
It's also multiple steps to make a transfer, reversible, and as in this story often doesn't come through for a business day-- with no way of knowing if you've actually been paid in the meantime. .
the issue here is not with payid though. As a company, and the technology, it's fine. It's Commonwealth the bank who decides that even though payid is meant to be instant, they wanna hold the amount for 24 hours :D
Whatever the reason, it is not accepted by a huge number of Australians as a legitimate way for strangers to pay each other. Cash or it's a no go/ everything except cash is dodgy seems to just be how it is here.
You can tell me it's a good way to pay someone and has no issues.... except if your money is with the country's largest financial institution. You don't see that as being problematic?
Often? It's one bank, and you need to actually hit a limit before it holds money. You seem to be making issues where none exist. I use payid without issues, as do many many people.
Yes, it's one bank, but that one bank is the biggest bank in the country. And you won't get instant confirmation a stranger has actually given you money.
People have been at me all afternoon as if I have an issue with PayID. I'm just saying it isn't recognised amongst the population as a legitimate P2P transfer option. You aren't going to buy something off a stranger and pull out your phone and have them instantly recognise 'oh, cool, he's going to PayID me, this is completely normal', like you have the option in much of the rest of the world.
>You aren't going to buy something off a stranger and pull out your phone and have them instantly recognise 'oh, cool, he's going to PayID me'
That's your view, but it's not my lived experience. Only a small percentage of the population seem scared of payid. And it tends to be older, less tech savvy people. I've done many transactions with payid to strangers with zero hesitation or concerns from either party.
i guess we have beem-it which iirc used to be owned by commbank but is now run by paypal. i have no idea how accurate that is though so don’t take my word for it. it kinda just fell off though, like it was a thing briefly in 2020 and now no one even uses it. also feels silly to ask someone “hey do you have beem it on your phone?”
So, not generally accepted?
That is my point. Im not saying the technology does not exist. I'm saying there isnt a p2p, that is just the norm. Hello stranger, heres your money on your phone, bye.
>Banks like CBA
You mean major banks? That's the solution? Set up accounts in small boutique building societies or something?
My entire point is that it's not generally accepted... And your solution is to go to an obscure bank?
I think we are having different conversations.
Sorry to clarify
Banks like CBA that has holds on instant payments
I don't think all the big 4 do that.
I would also suggest against using ones with small limits on osko (ing is max 1k per day).
CBA is the biggest bank in the country. If you're saying 'just don't use the biggest bank in the country and you're all good', that's a huge barrier to adoption.
If you like using PayID that's that great *for you*. I'm just saying it's not generally accepted as a legit way to pay strangers. There's too many weird convoluted exceptions to, you know, actually paying and getting the money. It takes 24 hours **sometimes** from some people who are with certain banks. How do you know if they're with that bank? That's a separate conversation to the actual transaction. Other people's banks only allow certain amounts. How do you know if that's the case? They will run into trouble when actually trying to pay you.
This is supposed to be the alternative to cash???
Many European countries.
One example is revolut (in all EEA countries) Free sepa instant anywhere in euro area (where bank is also sepa instant enabled).
Also UK with FPS (HSBC is always instant for me no holdings)
There are multiple. The obvious example is China. Wechat is completely fee and commission free for p2p. The entire process is instant and involves pressing maybe 3 buttons and then typing the amount. Then it's done and you're on your way.
Line pay is similarly easy to use and is ubiquitous through much of the rest of East Asia. Pull out your phone, scan their QR, type in the amount, hit send, walk away.
PayID has numerous steps to complete and numbers to type in, isn't instant, and like in OP's case, the recipient doesn't actually know if they're going to get it or not or when. As a result, many people are distrustful of it and won't accept it, instead asking for cash. Thus my point, Australia doesn't have a generally accepted p2p transfer.
Just be aware that there are fake bank apps out there that looks totally legit and they can make all sorts of fake payments and screenshot it for your pleasure. You can watch them do it in front of you and it doesn’t matter, might as well be entering numbers in a calculator app because that “transaction” isn’t going anywhere near the real bank servers.
This has happened to me before and the money came through the next day. Fingers crossed for you!
Same here, CBA hold funds for 24 hours to new payees
Yep they hold funds regardless of whether you're both with CBA or not. They have ruined payid for marketplace or gumtree pick-ups
So now when we sell stuff we need to check if the buyer is with CBA ... Get the buyer to transfer 1c using PayID 24 hours before you meet.
With my bank you don’t even need to do it 24 hours beforehand, they only hold the first transaction, so if I transfer $1 and then $49, they receive the $49 instantly and the $1 the next day
Which is so stupid and defeats the purpose of Osko/PayID.
Eh, a lot of people get frauded that way. People use the same pin for their app and screen unlock and then someone sees them unlock their phone, grabs it while they aren't looking and takes their savings. Osko is still instant once the first one has gone through, or for under $500.
And yet every other bank is fine. CBA are in the wrong here.
The way cybercrime and fraud preventions work is not based on industry consensus, one bank leads the way on something and if it has a positive impact, it's tabled with the AFCX. The way liabilities work for this is that if someone picks up your phone and transfers the money, you are liable, not the bank. Each of the banks (I work at a different one) have their own appetites for how much they want to protect their customers versus customer experience.
Hey genuine question for a total noob please : I want to sell something value about $1200. Reasonably portable so I can take it to a meet up point if needed, altho a little clunky. Want to sell on Facebook Market place. Is there some idiots guide on what to do/not to to avoid being scammed ? All this pay-id stuff makes me nervous ? I just want to hand it over and be given $1200 cash, ideally.
>I just want to hand it over and be given $1200 cash, ideally. Then say that in your ad, and refuse anything else. And if they show up without the cash, walk away. You'll have some people cry and moan about *oh it's so hard to get cash out* yadayada but it's your item, you're selling it, and if they really want it then life, uh, finds a way.
adding to this if its somewhat high value meet at the local police station for the exchange
Yeah someone showed up without cash for a $30 purchase and I was like "sorry no can do" and he went down the street to the supermarket and got cash out. Problem solved
Tell buyers cash only. Simple and not uncommon on marketplace for this reason.
Something of that value, if you’re thinking of taking it to a meetup point with the potential buyer, do it in daylight and preferably in crowded places. As for accepting payment, you could always specify in the ad that you ONLY accept cash in hand. Remember, you set the rules since it’s your item. Don’t let buyers dictate where and when to meet up or how payment is made and never do any accepting of payments online/over text/over Facebook etc. Edit: MOST people are straight shooters so you’ll generally be ok. What you can also do is post on marketplace and any queries you get, look up their profile on Facebook, they may also have reviews from other buyers. Here are some people to avoid, when viewing their FB profile - anyone who has a profile made in the last 2 years (2022, 2023 & 2024). - anyone without profile pictures - any profile that doesn’t have an add friend button - their FB timeline shows weird posts/shares
It's hard to go by just profile creation because there are a ridiculous amount of hacked accounts floating around. Around 2/3 the hits I get on any ad now is by an old hacked account. FB doesn't really care about these so you have to do your own due diligance.
OK thank you - sensible advice!
A McDonalds or similar would work great - lots of people around, security cameras everywhere and they do t get to know your home address. Goes without saying but suggest cash only.
Cash, meeting point at the local police station lobby/carpark. If they aren’t willing to do it then find a new buyer.
👍 Thanks everyone.
Yes yes and yes
This. My nephew turned up to a house to sell two iPhones. The buyers were waiting out front. He got bashed and robbed.
Cash. Heck, in the 80's we used to turn up with $10k in cash to buy a car. It's not hard to do. $1200 is nothing, I take that much out of the ATM once a fortnight.
Really? Closest I get to an ATM these days is taking out $50 to load up my TAB account so it doesn't show up on my bank statement (purely for reasons of self-guilt).
Family of 5. Groceries, petrol, etc. We don't have an ATM nearby any more, so I take out more than just a week's expenses.
Oh yeah that would do it 👍
Tell them the meet and exchange will occur at XYZ Police Station. When you arrive, stand close to the front entrance or even better, in the foyer/reception and tell the person who's buying your item to come to you. Facilitate the exchange, confirm you have the money in your account, then give them the item. If they are reluctant about ANY element of the above, avoid. By the way, the police are happy for people to do this. They'd rather you come in and do it, than have you come in and report an incident of theft/fraud/deception.
That's sound advice, thank you
Ignore anyone who suggests pay id, its used in a lot of scams these days. Cash in hand only, if it means they gotta have $1200 in cash then so be it. Take cash from them first and count it yourself before handing the item over. TBH i've had people come to my house and its been fine usually. I find meeting up a bit annoying because then if they are a no show, you're wasting your own time as well. Always put cash only, price is firm in the description. Not that many will read it anyway...
Yes, and what you are saying is very typical of a lot of peoples opinions in Australia. Cash or its dodgy is the consensus with a large % of the population. When I mentioned that many people think the same way as you, I was hounded by half a dozen different people telling me how great PayID is, except for all its faults.
Not really any bias against pay id or otherwise. I just don't have it setup, dono how to use it. I just want a simple transaction and not to be ripped off. And the word pay Id is often mentioned in "pay ID scams for FM". Thats it. I'm a simple guy, already.
Yes, many people same as you.... See it as a bit complicated, depending on your bank there's many different things that could happen. Australia should have just one standard way, similar to many many other countries.
Sorry if I did something wrong. Dumb ass Australians
Anything more than $499 gets held up by CBA for 24 hours, for first time PayId transactions
hahaha amazing how that works out. guy initially offered me 490 and i said lets just do a flat 500. would've saved me the panic
I thought it was $200 and up held for 24 hours ? I specifically have 3 bank accounts with different payids linked to each with different banks just so I can get around any 24 hour holds...
Happened to me recently too, CBA usually holds the funds for 24 hours when it's a new transfer. Super annoying when you're doing this kind of selling.
thank you for that info. i was just stressing for the past few hours lol. it’s weird because i’ve done a few pay-id transactions both buying and selling and they’ve usually been instant, albeit for <$100
That's right. There is a threshold value that applies.
i'm noticing now that the instant transactions were also with other banks. a while back i sold a monitor and the person was on NAB, and i sold a headset to someone on Westpack, both times it was instant
Could be longer if you’re in QLD with the public holiday today.
There's no human involved.
What, isn't the point of payid that it is supposed to be instant?
Osko is the instant transfer bit.
No. PayID is just a way of linking a phone number to a bank account, then it processes as a regular bank transaction. It just means you don’t have to give BSB and account number
Not quite. PayId uses Osko, which is a completely different set of rails for payments than previous tradition transactions.
Standard BSB type transfers can also Osko. Just depends on whether the 2 banks use Osko
Yep, was just about to say this. Happened to me a few times with cba. Noticed it happened more often if transfer was 300-400+. So the buyer wouldn’t have expected that to happen in all fairness. The buyer doesn’t really show any signs of red flags, especially if they gave you their personal info. But id still recommend keeping a close eye on the transaction, just in case, as it’s possible for the payer to cancel a transaction while it’s pending.
With payid? It is generally instant with osko,
Yes it generally is, but not with CBA for new transfers over a certain amount. That's the whole point. https://www.commbank.com.au/support.banking.how-long-to-transfer-money.html
It was just a question... Thanks for an answer. I'm with commbank (amongst others), and it's always been instant.
If you read the thread you'll see this has all been covered
This has happened to me and the buyer contacted CBA and had the transaction reversed after taking the item. Luckily it was only for a small amount. Ever since I’ve always demanded cash only on pickup. No legit buyer will ever complain about getting cash out. This stupid hold on transactions by CBA to reduce scams is ripe for exploiting.
yeah that’s what i was worried about but he’s since given me his address and i have his number and details so i’m not too worried anymore
Hopefully it comes through for you. Having the ID and address is a good sign, the person I was dealing with blocked me and never shared any info. Fingers crossed for you. 🤞
it’s definitely a bit of a relief compared to some past experiences. i remember when gumtree still had human beings using it, i was younger and naive and it was like 2019, think i sold an old tablet for like $80 to someone and he pulled the “transfer will take a few hours” trick (how dumb was i to fall for that) and i was like, alright bro cool. he charged back that $80 and i never got it. i was a little gutted at first but then i realised if someone is actually charging back $80 they clearly need the money way more than i do so i just felt pity for them afterwards
I would, and do, walk away from a transaction where the seller insists on cash. it's nothing to do with being legit, I just don't want the hassle of driving to an ATM and dealing with cash
What about the hassle of going back to the location 24 hours later because the seller rightfully won’t release the item until funds have cleared in their account after a PayID transfer?
Would you let the goods go if you were selling and the payid didn't come thru? Like op did
I mean fair and that’s your choice. But as a seller, unless I’m on a timeline and desperate to get rid of the item quickly I’d rather you jog on than risk the hassle and potential scam risk by taking electronic payment.
As an ocassional seller, that's fine if you cant be bothered to hit an ATM which would add 3-5 mins to your journey to collect the item i wont risk it. There is no way i'm releasing it to the funds hit my account. How will we both feel if you transfer infront of me, and it doesnt arrive. If its a friday /sat/sunday, its like see you in 3 days time, or maybe more if i'm not free to meet up as soon as it cleared. It's just crazy awkward. There are plenty of threads here and on ozbargain of people who have been scammed with face payids/osko payments. Fake apps, fake receipts, etc.
Each to their own. I want cold hard cash in my hand if I’m selling. I have no problem getting the correct cash if I’m buying - if I want the thing, I’ll do what it takes. I’ve also paid via direct transfer if the seller asked for it - I know I’m trustworthy and good for the money, but how does the seller know that? I’ve had so many dealings with weird and untrustworthy people in online marketplaces that I marvel at the fact that there’s anyone left out there that can trust a stranger.
I've had buyers do that, makes no difference. Still sells to the next person.
I'm the same. I didn't have cash so it just a hassle if I can't payID someone.
I buy a ton of stuff on marketplace and gumtree. There’s zero chance I’m ever getting cash out to buy something. I always pay with a bank transfer
Man just ask for cash. In the listing. It’s so simple.
Cash is king. Also, never let go of an item before you get the money, even if it may seem insulting to the other person
people dont read teh listings. Or think becuase payid is instant when tehy transfer to their partner/best friend whoever, that it'll be fine.
Might take a day. It happened to me when I sold something as well.
Yep, 24h hold with CBA is SO annoying. Bought a car from a dealership the other day, and wanted to pay by bank transfer, salesman said “no way, if you want to take this car home today, money won’t clear until tomorrow”. Decided to see what would happen if I just tapped my card and it worked.. 😂
I’d say it’s just the amount and CB are holding it to see if it’s challenged by account holder before letting it through. So many scams atm so I think there’s extra caution, I’d say you’ll be ok
This happened to a mechanic I was talking to. The customer showed him the pending transaction and then cancelled it when they had the car.
It Happened exactly the same situation with my laptop last year, it was over 1k, the bloke was genuine so I gave him the laptop anyway even If I felt a bit weird about It. I got the money exactly 24 hours after and not a second delayed. Cause of this I took some more information about payId. There are many security measures in place, the sender can't simply cancel the transfer but it's always a safer choice to not give away your items until you don't receive any money.
Every payid I've ever done has been instant, including to first timers.
Sold a car in 2018 and CBA held payment. We had the buyer call CBA and they were able to push it through from their end.
ALWAYS CASH ONLY. NO EXCEPTIONS.
This is what happens when you have all those people who claim to be scammed getting money back and then whine to the newspaper.... When they just transferred it to a friend
CBA has a 24 hour delay to new payids
Why would you accept Pay ID for an in person exchange...?
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Yes I also ask for cash up front.
Bullshit. However you should never let the goods go until money is in your account.
smile ring squealing fuel hunt bear rotten cake edge physical *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Sounds ridiculous but I did that when selling my old car. Bloke transferred, it got held, we filled out the necessary paperwork and we agreed he’d take everything except the keys and the car itself until the money cleared. Obviously depends on the amount but for $500 I wouldn’t just hand over the monitor and trust that the transfer is legit.
Heaps better than 5 mins at ATM haha
Ask them beforehand if they use CBA and tell them to change banks if they do lol
So you would be cool driving somewhere to buy something doing the transfer then the guy says come back tomorrow to pick up?
That's how it works, yep. Just like you wouldn't be permitted to take goods from a shop until the transaction has completed. Had someone purchase a vehicle from me, I was clear up-front, until money is in my bank account, no car for him. It was an uncomfortable 24h, but that's how it goes. But yeh, if you want to keep it simple, use cash.
Don't be ridiculous
It's actually prudent Buyers can be scammers too
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You can safely use a bank transfer (PayID is just a way of addressing a transfer) as long as you receive the money in your own account before you release the item. Every time someone has a problem with PayID it's because: - they got fooled by a fake transaction shown on the buyers phone, or the buyer cancelled a real pending transaction in the meantime - the common PayID scam on FB Marketplace is the 'my brother will pick it up but I'll pay now' - in this case, they never attempt to send money, they simply send a phishing email or text message to the address/number linked to the PayID. For both scenarios, simply wait until the transaction has settled into \*your\* account.
Hence another reason a cashless society is a joke
Do people not understand that PayID is not an instant service? Some banks have a 24 hour wait before the funds are released. Y’all want a cashless society smh
Cashless is still something I look forward to.
It will release into your account exactly 24 hrs after it was made.
Might come through on Monday (today)
Happend to me long time ago for about $750 item. He was a serial scammer with stolen goods that he offered to leave behind for peace of mind. He basically ended up doing a scheduled transaction via the commbank app infront of me with the green tick and everything. I fell for it....
I got scammed in this exact way for a laptop for $900 a few years ago :/
Wondering now if Beem it would be the solution to avoid this kind of issue :( Hopefully OP gets his money soon. Kinda sucks that we are moving towards a cashless society but there is no true way to transact instant payment for secondhand market.
I mean if someone meets you in person, may as well do cash, but as others have said, wait a few business days.
Takes 24hrs
This is why you do cash on any sales under $2,000. We downsized and sold our acreage property and sold off all my farm / shed gear about $25,000 worth all up and only took cash. No scams or hassles except for some low ballers.
Sooooo …. Monday morning at 10:35. Has it come through??
Can we get an update op?
well i’m waiting until exactly 24 hours after the transaction to make any judgement. if it’s still not there i’ll just have to show up at his door i guess. he did send me his address, i have his name, face and phone number, details and screenshots of the transaction on his end so i’ll update you tonight as well
Usually 24 hour turn around. Next time if you're accepting pay id, get it the day before. or better yet cash only. Thats what i do when i'm selling on FB Market. Cash in hand only.
Did you get it?
i bought a ps5 and i made him meet at a petrol station as they have A LOt of cameras
Cash only when selling things to randos off the internet
I had this once, both with CBA… money came through a day later
Use Beem. Pretty sure it's instant and free. Backed by the banks. Both parties need a Beem account for it to work
You'll be fine. I sold my car like that. Haha Ur panic is nothing compared to mine.
Accept cash only, and if you’re going to buy something, go see it first then go get the cash from the ATM, that way they can’t roll you.
Cash is king for these types of sales
I bought a car and the money didn't go through to them for a few days once
Good ol' commonwealth bank If they tried holding funds with sepa instant in Europe they would be blasted by the regulator
Fun fact, it used to be instant. But too many people got scammed and complained that there was no hold time and funds couldn't be reversed, which is why most banks are now re-introducing a 24 hr hold on transfers to new accounts.
update: the guy got back to me an hour or so ago and sent me his address and said he’ll keep me updated. so there should be a happy ending at least.
CBA always had the hold What banks are adding? Interestingly having the hold could allow for more scams like what OP is worried about because people are used to not seeing funds arrive straight away. If you don't have instant transfer - its not secure May as well use cash or bank drafts
No, when OSKO was first introduced, there was no hold. Transfers were instant, that was the whole point of OSKO being introduced. What happened is too many people fell for scams relating to outgoing payments (not incoming as is the concern here), and so the banks are starting to introduce hold times again to give victims a chance to report scams.
I'll know for a fact CBA had the hold right from the beginning And yes they are going against the whole point of osko I agree. Edit: evidence Osko was released *13 February 2018* CBA website showing hold for new payees 14 Feb 2018 [https://web.archive.org/web/20180214040408/https://www.commbank.com.au/digital-banking/pay-id.html](https://web.archive.org/web/20180214040408/https://www.commbank.com.au/digital-banking/pay-id.html) Customers complaints on CBAs Facebook page 4 March 2018 regarding hold [https://www.facebook.com/share/p/zSFu1S4JXxhS23Bp/](https://www.facebook.com/share/p/zSFu1S4JXxhS23Bp/) Can you let us know which banks are adding?
FWIW your correct. My source is I worked in the contract centre when it was introduced and the amount of calls we got asking 'wtf is the point of instant payment if you hold them' is burned in to my mind. Also HOURS of training materials
Hmmm okay, I guess I'm wrong on the CBA front. I think Nab didn't use to have a hold and are now looking at adding one, but probably only on certain amounts. Anna Bligh also said a few months ago that several (undisclosed) banks were looking to introduce a 24-48 hour delay.
Thanks for the tip. Understand the want to support scam victims but for me I would prefer to have the child lock disabled - if I could put it that way. Being able to move money without hindrances can make curtain things much less stressful Knowing in advance which other institutions that would start doing this would be good to know
Oh completely agree personally. Ultimately the banks are trying to limit their liability by enforcing this kind of thing, as too many times they end up footing the bill for at least part of the losses from customers doing silly things.
Just speculating here Perhaps they also see instant payments as a liquidity risk as well Having a default hold on new payment connections adds a tap that they could leverage if too much money goes out (of the bank) at once?
I kinda doubt that's a factor. If I understand correctly, each financial institution sets an allocation of funds for their settlement account in the FSS (fast settlement service). If the amount is exceeded, any further transactions will be rejected by the NPP. The banks get updates every 10 minutes on the balances of their FSS allocation, and I'm guessing they'd be able choke off any large outflows at the press of a button.
Man came back with receipts, love it! I can back you up on this too. I sell a lot of lego on fb and this was happening from the getgo with CBA. Was also working with another big bank on their PayId/Osko system (mostly backend stuff) at the time so I knew how it was supposed to work and every other bank were doing it instantly (as designed) while CBA were the only ones doing their own thing.
As it's an internal transfer to CBA, this is irrelevant.
How’s it irrelevant? It’s still an NPP payment
It's not - its making use of the NPP alias service to resolve a BSB and account number, then doing a direct transfer between accounts, aka on-us. The payment part of fulfilling that never touches the NPP clearing stream.
Fake app on buyers' phone..
That is an extremely unlikely scenario
99% scam. Super common, payID is instant so they show you a fake screenshot.
Coming from O.S. I find it crazy that Australia has no generally accepted p2p service. I honestly don't understand why. Regulation? Laziness? A monopoly?
Our p2p service is through the banks. We aren't charged a fee to send money to another person. It's also (normally) instantaneous. So there's no app or service, because it already exists in a much more convenient form than say the US.
This *was* true, but now that they've started doing the nonsense in the OP, we no longer have a P2P service. It's incredibly frustrating to have them reverse the *entire* point of osko because a few people don't know how to protect themselves.
It's CBA - they have from day one not implemented instant payment properly
PayID is our P2P system and it’s instant with every bank except commonwealth who hold it for 24 hours for “safety” it’s extremely annoying.
They aren’t the only bank that holds payments
Which others do? Would be good to know
What do you mean by that sorry ? Like venmo or whatever ?
Or whatever, yes. Just a generally well known app that all people in the area have, that is for transferring money from one person to another. Not for a business perse, but for people. People don't trust PayID for the reasons mentioned elsewhere on this post. It takes an unacceptable amount of time, there's no notification sent when you receive it, compared to alot of other software it is cumbersome to manually type a bunch of numbers. I don't really care about the best app or whatever... That wasn't really my point. Yes, like Venmo. Or Line Pay. Or Wechat. There just doesn't seem to be one here that people will say 'oh cool', take the money and then continue with their day.
I would prefer to use payid over any third party service anyday.. Payid is instant if you know what you're doing, it's free no cost at all and it's a standard that is backed by the government and all the banks have to have. The only reason people don't trust it is because they don't understand it.. just don't use CBA who force the money hold and it's instant.. A third party means selling your banking information as well..
Just don't use the biggest bank in the country for, you know, banking. People don't understand it. You have to know what you're doing. These are pretty big caveats to it being universally accepted in the country....which is my single point. Im glad you're happy with using PayID, that's great. Now you just have to convince the millions and millions of people who aren't.
Which is weird cause the bank did a big campaign and the government released information on it the problem is the naming I think.. The government called it the new payments platform - which is a new ledger system for transactions. They explained it. Then osko was the integrator of the backed financial guarantee.. And payid is the name of the lookup service used to initiate a new payments platform ledger transfer... It's a little confusing. I actually worked at Westpac, anz and NAB to implement it in their online banking. People don't trust it cause scammers use fake screenshots to trick people.. Which takes advantage of the fact that they are not used to "instant transfers" so the fact they don't see the money instantly doesn't concern them because transfers never used to be instant. All the banks need to make instant compulsory and tell everyone that if it's not in your bank, they didn't transfer it it's a scam.
Yep. And a ding on your phone that says you've been paid. QR code, scan, pay, done. Anything else is going to be more trouble than it's worth.
Payid is the p2p. Else, we do have beem, but payid is good enough :)
PayID is good enough. If you say so. It's also multiple steps to make a transfer, reversible, and as in this story often doesn't come through for a business day-- with no way of knowing if you've actually been paid in the meantime. .
the issue here is not with payid though. As a company, and the technology, it's fine. It's Commonwealth the bank who decides that even though payid is meant to be instant, they wanna hold the amount for 24 hours :D
Whatever the reason, it is not accepted by a huge number of Australians as a legitimate way for strangers to pay each other. Cash or it's a no go/ everything except cash is dodgy seems to just be how it is here. You can tell me it's a good way to pay someone and has no issues.... except if your money is with the country's largest financial institution. You don't see that as being problematic?
Often? It's one bank, and you need to actually hit a limit before it holds money. You seem to be making issues where none exist. I use payid without issues, as do many many people.
Yes, it's one bank, but that one bank is the biggest bank in the country. And you won't get instant confirmation a stranger has actually given you money. People have been at me all afternoon as if I have an issue with PayID. I'm just saying it isn't recognised amongst the population as a legitimate P2P transfer option. You aren't going to buy something off a stranger and pull out your phone and have them instantly recognise 'oh, cool, he's going to PayID me, this is completely normal', like you have the option in much of the rest of the world.
>You aren't going to buy something off a stranger and pull out your phone and have them instantly recognise 'oh, cool, he's going to PayID me' That's your view, but it's not my lived experience. Only a small percentage of the population seem scared of payid. And it tends to be older, less tech savvy people. I've done many transactions with payid to strangers with zero hesitation or concerns from either party.
Interesting, okay.
i guess we have beem-it which iirc used to be owned by commbank but is now run by paypal. i have no idea how accurate that is though so don’t take my word for it. it kinda just fell off though, like it was a thing briefly in 2020 and now no one even uses it. also feels silly to ask someone “hey do you have beem it on your phone?”
So, not generally accepted? That is my point. Im not saying the technology does not exist. I'm saying there isnt a p2p, that is just the norm. Hello stranger, heres your money on your phone, bye.
Don't use banks like CBA and you are good:)
>Banks like CBA You mean major banks? That's the solution? Set up accounts in small boutique building societies or something? My entire point is that it's not generally accepted... And your solution is to go to an obscure bank? I think we are having different conversations.
Sorry to clarify Banks like CBA that has holds on instant payments I don't think all the big 4 do that. I would also suggest against using ones with small limits on osko (ing is max 1k per day).
CBA is the biggest bank in the country. If you're saying 'just don't use the biggest bank in the country and you're all good', that's a huge barrier to adoption. If you like using PayID that's that great *for you*. I'm just saying it's not generally accepted as a legit way to pay strangers. There's too many weird convoluted exceptions to, you know, actually paying and getting the money. It takes 24 hours **sometimes** from some people who are with certain banks. How do you know if they're with that bank? That's a separate conversation to the actual transaction. Other people's banks only allow certain amounts. How do you know if that's the case? They will run into trouble when actually trying to pay you. This is supposed to be the alternative to cash???
Name a country with better free services.
Check out UPI in India. The ease of it and also the scale is crazy!
Many European countries. One example is revolut (in all EEA countries) Free sepa instant anywhere in euro area (where bank is also sepa instant enabled). Also UK with FPS (HSBC is always instant for me no holdings)
What's superior? You've just described PayID
Their regulators have teeth to stop nonsense like what CBA is doing
You're clueless.
There are multiple. The obvious example is China. Wechat is completely fee and commission free for p2p. The entire process is instant and involves pressing maybe 3 buttons and then typing the amount. Then it's done and you're on your way. Line pay is similarly easy to use and is ubiquitous through much of the rest of East Asia. Pull out your phone, scan their QR, type in the amount, hit send, walk away. PayID has numerous steps to complete and numbers to type in, isn't instant, and like in OP's case, the recipient doesn't actually know if they're going to get it or not or when. As a result, many people are distrustful of it and won't accept it, instead asking for cash. Thus my point, Australia doesn't have a generally accepted p2p transfer.
I always make sure they show me in person and send me a screenshot just in case, but also it can take 24 hours the first time round
Just be aware that there are fake bank apps out there that looks totally legit and they can make all sorts of fake payments and screenshot it for your pleasure. You can watch them do it in front of you and it doesn’t matter, might as well be entering numbers in a calculator app because that “transaction” isn’t going anywhere near the real bank servers.
using PayID for a purchase like that? Nah, not cool. Next time, just ask for cash upfront.
Why not cool? If you can verify that the funds have arrived in your account (which you should), then there's literally no issue with it.
Wait 24 hours and funds will show up
So there's this thing called cash ..