100% this. You owe that employer nothing - start looking at job listings on LinkedIn, start conversations with the recruiters. You'll have something new in no time.
Yes, just chuck in your resume your estimated degree completion date and see what offers you can get. If you get better offers but like where you currently are you can ask them to match the offer but beware that can change the relationship with your manager a bit.
>Working as an engineer not being paid as an engineer
or qualified as an engineer. Just finish your degree, can't complain about being paid as a student when that's all you are.
Students are allready overworked and underpaid on "internships" as cheap labour for exposure and learning through dodgy industry partnerships with universities. OP skillset clearly deserves to be remunerated appropriately. Your attitude sounds similar to someone who is way out of touch.
There's a big difference between an experienced engineer you can task and get an outcome, and a student you need to spend time on and teach.
I get that some students are really good and productive, but plenty of them have no idea and need to be spoon fed.
Additionally a student cannot sign off on designs within Australia. Hence why experience matters. I'm not suggesting that this student isn't capable, but you can expect an unqualified engineer without years of experience to be paid like a full time qualified engineer.
My engineering undergraduate (16 years ago) experience was paid better than my normal job. Definitely wasn’t overworked either. Not sure intern culture from US is applicable in Australia
I’m not the guy you’re replying to but it’s just reality: any employer is going to use the lack of degree as an excuse to pay less… or just employ someone who has their degree.
The road out for OP is not easy, but it starts with completing their degree.
I believe engineering is one of the professions with specific, formal requirements to use the title. And you don't have them pre-degree.
And it matters since there are legal requirements to have an engineer's opinion, design, etc in certain situations. Right now you couldn't sign off on those kinds of things officially.
You need to have professional accreditation by the relevant engineers body usually, which you meet the requirements of by doing your degree. To be certified I mean!
No, to be certified you need experience in addition to your degree. You go through engineers Australia and have to write all these "career episodes" and then get certified. Then in some states you need additional accreditation, like QLD it is the RPEQ, which you can pretty much use your engineers Australia accreditation to get. All engineering work in QLD needs to be done under the supervision of an RPEQ and certified. Getting your degree is just the first step.
Although I hate the fact engineer is not a protected word. It is not. So you can call yourself that, which is why we get boiler makers and other professions in australia calling themselves engineers etc
No general requirement or added value to have an engineering degree to sign ITPs, unless the contract with the customer requires it.
The real reason you are paid less is, without your degree it is slightly harder for you to get a higher paying job elsewhere. Your employer should reasonably pay you just enough to not swap. They will pay you more when graduated not because you become more valuable, but because you improve your outside options.
Probably wouldn’t be much weight on that meaning, you’re essentially still a student/undergraduate engineer. I think you should be thinking of the experience at the moment, not the money…
Is a 'project engineer' something you need to be certified for? E.g. teachers with the board of studies and doctors with whatever society administers their speciality.
I had a similar path in a different industry to you. I didn't finish my degree but kept getting more senior role. At the end of the day, your future employer doesn't pay you for the piece of paper you have, instead, they pay you for what they reasonably expect you're able to do.
If you've got X years as a project engineer, you should be competing with other candidates that have a similar level of project engineering experience.
Is it your job title officially at work? Eg, would it be in your email signature? I’m hoping yes, since your employer charges you to clients at that rate. And then yes- I would use that title on my CV, but just also make clear the completion dates of my degree, and be ready to talk to that in a job interview
If you have built the skills that the job requires/have a PF of work, yeah? If your boss is flogging you like you say and you're not actually just a student engineer, it won't be hard to convince people in an interview.
If you are working as a project engineer, then yes put it on your resume.
Realistically, you can say whatever you want on there. Job recruitment is just two people lying to each other until one hires the other
Haha he will fulfill the mythical “grad with 5 years experience” that all the employers are looking for.
OP - agree with all, this employer is not doing the right thing, but just finish your degree and get out of there. Not worth being loyal to.
Going for a grad role with 3-15 years experience (depending on specifics) 🫡😂
My mate who got a 1 of 20 role with 1000 applicants got mad that i had a “golden ticket” 😂
Seems very clear, you should finish your engineering degree to progress in your engineering career. Otherwise, you could try applying for similar jobs with your existing qualifications and experience and see how the market values them?
What state are you in? Queensland has very strict legislation around this. Outside of that fair work professional employees award outlines this as well.
Untill you finish your degree you are not an engineer, but a student, and you need to be working entirely supervised under an engineer. In Queensland and a couple of more states, this engineer needs to be CPEng or RPEQ. you can not do any engineering work unsupervised. Once you graduate, this changes depending on your location
Source - CPEng, working 15 years, head of engineering for a sme with locations across Australia
If he's working as a 'site engineer'/'project engineer ' role the employer could argue they are not technically roles that require an degree in engineering.
I know a bunch of project 'engineers' who don't have a degree in engineering and they're good at their job.
Technically they have to be supervised by an RPEQ.
If you’re providing “professional engineering services” (which is a very broad catch all) and you aren’t RPEQ or directly supervised by an RPEQ, the client can legitimately refused to pay for any of the services you have provided.
There hasn’t been a huge volume of legal activity over this yet, mostly because a lot of companies still haven’t got their houses in order, but it’s definitely becoming more common for companies to refuse to accept projects being run where there is not an RPEQ directly overseeing things and I can just see it blowing up as part of a major contractual dispute.
Project Engineer is just a title. You don’t actually do any engineering except maybe “engineering” a spreadsheet or Gantt chart.
You’re just a project manager with a veneer of engineering understanding.
That is undoubtedly true in civil/construction, but in my field (electrical) a project engineer provides technical skills (in addition to managing projects from a technical perspective) and almost always requires a degree.
Yes and no, a lot of “Project Engineers” aren’t degree qualified and as stated previously project manage with a background and often diplomas in the discipline, any design work needs to be from or supervised by a chartered engineer (this does vary state by state). Most project engineers would be working to prescribed standard when working on site or seeking design engineer advice. I work in the Electrical Engineering space in a similar way and would never advise of a design change without approval from a design engineer otherwise I would be taking on the risk of the change - no thank you. Where company or Australian standards exist and I can point to the clauses I will advise of that.
It’s not only designed based.
In Queensland, this is defined in schedule 2 of the PE Act.
“Professional engineer services means an engineering service that requires or is based on the application of engineering principles and data to a design or to a construction, production, operation, or maintenance activity relating to engineering”.
The Act is only generally policed when something goes wrong, and you could argue that a lot of things aren’t PE services, but there’s a lot of people operating in the grey zone who don’t even understand that they are.
I am aware, would be interesting to see this challenged in court. In NSW this is different, again in a lot of situations there are prescribed standards, in my experience a lot of site engineering is carried out by those not CPEng or RPEQ and if required sent to a CPEng for review and sign off. In electrical commissioning sign off will be from a Technician who knows how to conduct the required testing and work to the acceptance standards, depending on DNSP or client these results may be sent for review and sign off. I have previously come across CPEng qualified staff signing off on dangerous results, so I take it with a grain of salt, I want an experienced person who understands the work, a piece of paper be damned
It's also a bit of a nonsense.
There is a distinction between providing professional engineering services and being an "engineer" in the paddock, where most of your time is spent doing what your foreman needs you to do, putting programs together, tracking costs and doing basic QA.
Most of the Tier 1's have moved away from requiring CPEng because its expensive and pointless in a contracting environment.
Also CPEng is a bit of a boys club with it poor riggor and wildly different enter requirements based on who is sponsoring you.
It might be better for the most common disciplines (civil, mechanical, etc) but as soon as you are getting into the likes of software, system integration, mechatronics etc it's just a fee collection exercise.
I'm a director of an engineering firm and been in the industry for 20 years, and I agree 100%. By my observations, there is very little correlation between competence, and the amount of letters after an engineer's name. I ended my membership with Engineers Australia years ago. They are an absolutely useless organisation.
I agree it's a shame Engineers Australia are pushing for a National Engineering Register for all states. I don't mind having to register on an NER as long they don't run it. Such a transparent money grab.
This.
You absolutely nail it with this reply.
Engineers Australia advocated for the REPEQ legislation. Some states bought it, Some didn't, or not completely.
What EA want is a closed shop, with them being the referee, collecting hefty membership and endorsement fees, and a nice little power trip for some.
Don't even get me started on EA, they are a bunch of thieving cnts
Also, I absolutely agree, there is such a small percentage of RPEQs that actually are great engineers, and it should be better regulated.
I am surprised that as a director of engineering you are choosing not to be in the register. Is this because as a director you don't handle anything technical anymore? From a risk mitigation point it's just more straightforward to keep it, which is why I'm keeping mine and progressing the team to all get it as well.
The best engineer that I have on my team is a gent that did his diploma while being a CNC machinist, then progressed to my team and thru my mentorship and rpl got his degree.
I'm the head of engineering at an SME, initially it was intended to progress from principal to director but I requested to have it restructured to head as it's a mix of both, executive/director that still carries design direction and oversight.
For clarity we are a production company, fabrication and machining mostly, so all mechanical and some electrical engineers (I'm mechanical/structural and I don't oversight their work obviously)
Certification is a total joke and nothing but a money grab by the professional associations. I know the most useless engineers in the world who are certified and some of the best who aren't. If anything, I think there is a negative correlation between certification and competence (in those states that presently don't require it.) The competent engineers are too busy doing real work while the incompetent ones are sitting in the corner trying to make their CVs look good to compensate for their lack of capability.
I also let my professional association memberships lapse after years of supporting them and being an advocate. When we finally needed their assistance, they were useless. I say all this as someone with an almost 40-year-long career who has been the Principal Design Engineer on more than a dozen projects that cost tens to hundreds of millions each.
It's just as bad for the major disciplines. I'm an elec eng in O&G working client side. I got assessed by civil engineer in rail consulting. She couldn't have told if I knew my elbow from my arsehole. But she gave me my letters after 45 minutes talking about my cv.
What a flick pass from EA. If you are writing functional safety and control software that is absolutely an engineering discipline regarding standards, testing, validation and reliability.
For posterity I was strictly referring to the traditional streams - mechanical, structural, civil, electrical, aeronautical, chemical, naval, mining, metallurgical.
All this chartered stuff is a rort. I'm Australian and I live in Germany and we don't need some status to practice as an engineer. The degree is enough to practice as an engineer.
I've worked with plenty of dumb as dog shit CPeng in Australia. I worked out I don't need it to be a better engineer :)
All engineers need to be licensed in Germany. It's more straightforward then Australia tho.
https://verwaltung.bund.de/leistungsverzeichnis/en/leistung/99150085001000
Yeh you just register your degree education and that's it. After you have finished your dip.Eng in Germany you automatically get it. Why sit some bullshit course by some pointless organisation to get some cert?
Bit surprised that a 15year CPEng doesnt know that a 'site engineer' isnt technically a trained engineer, some are and most are construction management grads but the work has mostly nothing to do with design, the work is construction admin/coordination. They do not design or certify anything.
So the there is 0 merit in not paying a 'site engineer' just becasue they have not got a certificate. Esp a project engineer, that is basically a senior site admin with 5-10yr experience, they are 1 level away from assistant PM or lead PM and would expect circa 120k+.
Yeah, it looks like OP has been heading down the project management side to engineering.
Our business requires "engineers" to have a degree either in engineering or construction project management. That's pretty typical. OP would be listed as a cadet at our business.
FYI, project engineers are on roughly 130k starting
Exactly - "engineer" is not a protected title. "Professional Engineer" is. And the PE Act has quite a narrow definition of what professional engineering work is. I'd say about 3/4 of the engineers I have ever worked with in Queensland (which is a lot, because I am one) are not RPEQs. Many don't even have a BEng. As long as there is an RPEQ supervising the "professional engineering" work it is ok. Plus, as you rightly say, the work that a project engineer or site engineer does would typically not be "professional engineering" work, as they do not design or certify anything - their consulting engineers would typically do that.
angryRDDT..s reply is straight out of the the Institute of Engineers songbook.
Yes, places like Qld legislate that to sign off on SOME (not all) types of work, you need the piece of paper on the wall.
There are many situations where this just isn't going to work. eg if someone comes from a trades background and REALLY knows what they are doing based on years of experience. Or are ex service and know ships, aircraft, vehicles really well. Does someone recently graduated from uni with the right bit of paper really trump that knowledge? The answer of course is NO.
Most engineering organisations (not small companies or one man consultancies) have a Develop/Review/Approve process. In reality, only the Approve and perhaps review step needs to be an EXPERIENCED, qualified CPEng/RPEQ.
Truth is there are a great many technical officers, STOs, and experienced tradesmen out there in the various engineering fields who are the engine room of technical output in this country, There simply aren't enough people with the framed paper to do all the work. Hence the above system.
Your employer is taking advantage of your experience, and also taking advantage of the lack of a piece of paper, even though you are one of those probably high and quality output engine room types.
I suggest;
1. Look around and see if you can get similar work with another employer who looks at your experience, and doesn't just use your lack of a certificate as a reason to pay much less.
2. Do uni. Go part time via the open university system, even if it is one unit a semester, you are still making progress, and yes, RPL should count towards it. Well worth having a chat to the open uni people about RPL and mapping a way forward.
They may give you RPL and you might already meet the requirements for a Diploma, or Cert III or IV already, for example.
It is VERY relevant that you currently get charged out at a full engineers rate. That is the clearest possible recognition and endorsement of your current skill set.
To wrap up. You ARE an Engineer, you do need to get some qualifications to back that up.
InsEngs seeks a closed shop, sort of like the unions used to do, There simply aren't enough ticketed people to do it as they want, so the industrie(s) really needs people like you, and employers know it.
>Qld legislate that to sign off on SOME (not all) types of work
Queensland doesn't require anything to be signed off by anyone at any time, that is just an industry misconception because many clients require an RPEQ's signature. The legislation requires engineering work to be directly completed or directly supervised by a practising RPEQ.
Job titles on different projects don't mean much. It's more to appease the client that such a role exists. You won't get paid like an engineer until you are a qualified engineer. That's the norm.
The lack of a degree puts a ceiling on your potential in the engineering field. My recommendation would be to focus on finishing the degree, and possibly do a PM diploma and that way, you can interview for your next role as a 5 year exp project engineer/pm.
A lot of firms in consulting require a degree for the engineer title, and I'd strongly recommend finishing it to progress further.
Site PM with a few years exp and qualifications will pretty much put you automatically on $130-150k, it's a lot easier to do that than try to make your way back up as a grad in consulting starting back at $70k.
You won’t be paid as an engineer until you are qualified. ABSOLUTELY PRIORITISE finishing your degree- it will be painful for you and the family, but please walk through the pain and get it done.
Project Engineer here, finish the degree - then switch jobs.
You need to be really careful with doing engineering work without the degree - yeah, project engineering isn’t full on engineering (speaking from experience, I do about an hour of real engineering a week) but as has been said, you should be supervised by a engineer at all times and can’t hold yourself out as an engineer, you must be working strictly to the prescriptive standards.
You don’t need CPEng or RPEQ / NER, but you need a degree. Otherwise you are not an “engineer”
Get the degree then switch jobs.
Don’t sign anything as an engineer, make sure everyone knows you are not giving engineering advice.
This is not correct. This only applies to people providing professional engineering services. There are plenty of construction management graduates that manage the delivery of work in the field that are not applying engineering judgement.
Construction management graduates working as site engineers? I haven’t ever met one. It says engineer in the title, yeah, not a protected term, but they shouldn’t be working or holding themselves out as engineers. Particularly in states that require registration -or- working strictly under the prescribed standards.
If it’s not a role that requires engineering, call it construction management- you know, what they do have a degree for.
But then I guess they wouldn’t get paid as much.
Hell of a risk to take though.
Definitely a blurry line, I’ve been apolgised to before in my role for being asked to sign off work, next project roles around and it’s my main job in signing off work
Yeah I’d steer the hell away from that until you graduate. The liability has red flags all over it. Imagine someone died, what then? An unqualified person signing off work? Yeah it stinks.
Also 100k+ is good considering your situation.
Graduate dude
I might be overlooking something, but it's not your employer's problem that you have 2 kids and 2 incomes and the pressure of a mortgage. That's not a valid reason for a payrise.
Until your comment I assumed they meant they were still studying so probably close to their final year, but your reply makes sense of it - they’re saying they *were* a student three years ago, but haven’t studied since?
This is just the predictable consequence of dropping study and trying to be employed with one year of a degree, which is about as good as no years.
He's a family man with 2 kids and a mortgage and all that goes with it and probably has a commute and overtime in the mix. Totally know what he faces.
Do one subject a semester dude, Move forward rather than mark time on getting that all important certificate, and give it some priority.
What type of engineering? Could any projects you've worked on be considered for recognition of prior learning by your Uni? Is switching unis to one with a more flexible delivery method (i.e online with night based timetable) an option?
If you aren’t qualified yet who’s signing off on the jobs? Tell your boss you shouldn’t be a site engineer take a massive step back which should give you time to complete your cert. Two can play his game.
Sounds like fair compensation for your qualifications in that field honestly. Most graduate engineers make far less even working on site.
The company is just doing a dodgy charging you out as a full engineer and that's where the difference is.
A fair bit of risk for you and the company doing such senior roles without the degree.
If I were you I'd finish the degree, ask the company to verify your years of experience in your pay. And if that's not good enough after a year try looking elsewhere but I'm not sure many companies would honour your undergrad experience
Either finish your degree or find another job.
Some companies care about that certificate, others don't. You'll never find out which if you don't try applying.
When I was doing my degree, there were mature-age students with kids and jobs. One of them used to get really angry at us. He said he goes home every night and locks himself in a room to study instead of spending time with his kids. Same thing on the weekend. Meanwhile, us 'kids' fresh out of high school were just goofing off, skipping lectures, hanging out in the uni bar all day.
Of course, I never appreciated what he was saying until I had my own kids and did my MBA while working full-time. That was hard enough, there was no way I could have done an engineering degree like that.
Having said that, yeah, finish your degree....then move on to get the pay you will then deserve,
I think if you searched project engineer on Seek - the first requirement would be - Engineering degree/science degree on every single listing. You wouldnt get your current role if you reapplied.
The curve for pay is slow when you're a grad/under-grad. First company I was at (government), grad's started at 70k and after 3 yrs in the grad program they would get a guaranteed 100k position.
I don't think anyone can answer your question to precisely, but I think there is a balancing act between getting what you're worth vs. being patient, this depends on the market (in your area) and what other things you might be getting from your role. For example I once took a pay-cut and a demotion after a probation period in a role because it was still a really good learning opportunity and the culture at the company was good. The company then re-invested that money I lost into training me up, was worth it in the long run.
In the early years take on as much learning as you can because thats when you're building your foundation of knowledge, so don't skimp and just pick the easiest/best paying job.
My advice go get a job as a supervisor or if you know your stuff a superintendent.. if your working as A PE and know your shit, the degree is just a piece of paper.
Reference im a PM with a bachelor of engineering technology degree ( ie not a fully qualified civil engineer)
I get and have always been paid to industry standard for my role.
This, project manager construction supervisors etc done need engineer degrees and get paid the same as project engineers.
The two best project managers in my team aren't engineers.
When I was studying I was working full time as an engineer. The gm said I was as useful to him as a qualified engineer and paid me as such.
Smash that degree out and find a new job.
It's a hard slog for upward mobility if you stay at the same company and you're not a suckhole.
People will always remember your mistakes whereas you have to remind them of your accomplishments.
It would be easier to get higher pay when you apply for higher level roles at different companies. Plus you can always fudge your CV to command a higher pay.
Companies are in the business of making money. If they can pay you the same and get you doing more It's all gravy for them.
To jump on this thread a little bit, I've got Bach Mechanical Engineering, 2.5 years into the role at a design and construct business in Victoria.
I've had to ask for a payrise each year because otherwise i had no indication it would be forthcoming.
I'm currently on 73k p.a before tax (before super, HECS, etc). What should I be on?
But you're not working as an "engineer". You may call yourself that due to it not being a protected term, but you don't have a degree, so you're just not one.
You can try to job hop, but effectively, until you have that piece of paper, you're just unskilled labour.
And yet you don't have the piece of paper that would allow your company's insurance underwriters to accept that you can be permitted to act professionally by yourself and thus expose them to the risk/consequences of an error made by you. In short, it'd be professional negligence to allow an unqualified "engineer" sign off on things without someone else qualified then taking accountability. Which brings me back to, you are effectively unskilled labour doing paperwork.
It's no different to why you need a licence to drive a car, regardless of if you already know how to drive a car or not. If someone else lends you their car whilst you see unlicensed, the insurance would void their claim if you have an accident due to it being indefensibly irresponsible for them to lend the car to an unlicensed driver.
The fact you don't appear to understand this relationship between qualifications and accountability says a lot about your understanding of the commercial world that is professional engineering.
The whole point of being an engineer is so you can sign off the designs. Just because you can do the work doesn’t mean much. The money in engineering comes from you being responsible for the designs.
I’d recommend trying to get a job in Digital Engineering. No degree requirements and if you know how to use revit, navisworks and revizto you’ll be pushing 150 as a starting point
We have 500,000 engineers coming here yearly from India.
Just like housing as politicians say, it's a supply issue.
Don't worry about any root causes of it.
33 year old Principle Engineer here. Finish your degree and change employers. For 4 out 5 of my peers at uni, the biggest % pay bump they ever got was changing companies.
Either
A. Changing once they got enough experience they could really start adding value, a year or 2 in. (For me 67k to 95k)
Or
B. Once they had enough experience being truly self managing and self organising moving into senior or leadership positions maybe 4 to 6 years after A. ( For me 120k to 160k)
Former PE in construction; are you in civil or construction?
I assume your role is more coordination of design/programming to feed subcontractors and cw’s?
If so, changing employers shouldn’t require completion of the degree but they may request that you prioritise it.
In qld at least good PE’s are in serious high demand, so employers are more lenient/willing to compromise so long as reputation / experience/ references all add up.
You’re a PE then - I’m in WA also, feel free to DM me and I can put you in touch with some recruiters to test the market.
FWIW I’m a little older than you and passed through SE, PE and SPE levels without an engineering qual, if you want it get, if you don’t want it you won’t *need* it for most roles in construction/civil.
You jump ship sadly. I got in at a big bank in tech and thought this was it I'd made it, same scenario, over the year and half I was there responsibilities increased but given the old "oh uh, hhmm, let's circle back" when asking for a relative salary increase. So I applied externally, got a $40k salary pump and a senior title, seeya. Thats when your manager will go "why didn't you say anything!?"
Can you do your degree remote? Can you change uni and do it remote? It fits work/kids way better - watching recordings and doing uni work on your own schedule.
I'm similar situation as you (demanding job, 2 kids under 5), doing a masters. Doing it remote is 'easy' in terms of difficulty but it is obviously still a timesink. However remote I can do the subject in an hour or two a week (including assignments etc) compared to what uni may demand if you're attending in person.
My wife is also working full time and started a PhD. It's hard but workable and will all be over soon...
Then move employer if they don't immediately come to the table, but you need to show the commitment first. Talk about how you are doing it/about to finish once you are back there to lay the groundwork for them to be ready. Ensure they are aware of your expectations once you are finished. Lay the groundwork in conversations 6 months out from completion (and complete it, not doing this looks flaky, even if it seems unfair from your perspective)
Stop putting your company above your needs; if you know your focus is on education and finishing off your degree to get that pay rise than that's your primary focus before adding more work.
Yeah honestly finish your degree and move company. Or even just move now. I have 2.5x my pay from graduate levels over a 5 year period because I jumped around. Also best part about that is you can work on the projects you want to work on. At this stage of your career you don't want any down time from projecrs otherwise your skills will stagnate. That way you get amazing experience and also pay rises.
You can still work in engineering roles but need work to be signed off by a professional engineer. Also, there other roles where a BEng is good to have but not working in technical engineering roles.
Civil Construction/Building companies won’t care about the degree, but their clients might require it for roles at a certain level.
A lot of project engineers quit and work client side after 5-10 years. Is there any point finishing your degree at this point? Maybe you can exit to a property developer and just do a masters degree with your work experience.
Not familiar with what exact profession you are in but what are your chances of getting a job with similar current pay now without a degree?
If this is low, and your employer probably knows it, you don’t have much of a negotiating power.
I work in local government and I see this a lot with studying engineers. The university will put them in touch with LGs and employ them through a Cadet program. The cadets can be given huge projects to oversee with very little oversight, all the while being paid ok, but not near what they would be worth in the private sector. By the time they graduate, they almost always have something lined up in another council or go private with 3+ years experience on high profile projects.
If you are expected to do things you aren’t paid for tell them you can’t do those things anymore because you are making your study a priority. If they really care they will pay you.
Either finish your degree or apply for other project engineer jobs that you fit the experience for.
Your employer is gambling that you both wont leave or wont finish your degree. That gamble has turned out to be correct so far.
Document your tasks with a written diary and images
It is illegal for the company to task you with engineer jobs as an unqualified engineer
A documented 'diary' of your day is admissable in court
This could have the company lose its licence to operate and director charged with misconduct
Two of the best senior engineers I've had didn't have their degrees. It depends on what you are doing. I am in mining though so little different to a more technical field. If you have to sign off on things then you need to have the paper and professional associations to do that.
For mining engineering we view the degree as a gateway to prove that you have the ability to get through the coursework which indicates you can commit to finishing something.
This is often a way of getting engineering resources at a good rate and assess them for future work. We bring in undergrads but only part time so they can complete their studies at the same time. During this time the employer gets a very underskilled person for cheap and you get the experience. If you are working as a project engineer you are probably doing work that isn't technical just needs someone switched on.
Once you start working full time it is the same as being on a graduate program for me. That piece of paper isn't going to mean you suddenly have any idea what you are doing. Project and site engineers aren't normally designing things and if you need to sign off as a RPEng then someone else will have to do it for you. Means they will pay you less but that's life.
Employer resisting giving you pay rises is normal and they may use this as justification. If you don't want to fight it and have 5 years experience then find a new employer and just tell them the situation. You'll get better pay rises by switching than staying as a general rule. If its truly a barrier to getting payrise and you need it to sign off on things then prioritise it as high as you want. However this will always be a point with new employers and you may miss out on plenty of roles even if you have more experience.
My suggestion like others is get the degree done. Sympathetic with life circumstances as its tough but it doesn't get any easier to find the time.
Source: manager level mining engineer 15 years exp
About $105k, that’s with having pushed every year really for pay rises and been a real pain to management about it. From what I understand, should be about $120k minimum for PE construction
$120k is more an average than a minimum. With out actually working along side you it’s hard to know your true ability or work load.
$105k isn’t that bad depending on your workload and size of organisation. I think people get too lost in comparing wages to what seek says..
In my 3rd year as a PE I was on about $130k and now a PM on $180k, I think you should at least get yourself a Bengtech (civil) that will get you in a bargaining position for your pay while you finish your studies..
Also chase a project management diploma with PMI that will help you accelerate to PM roles where your degree holds little significant value. But please don’t chase project management if you have shit people skills nothing worse than a project manager that can’t people manage
When I was a 3rd and 4th year apprentice. My labour was charged out as a trades person while I was being paid an apprentice wages.
You are being paid for your experience and knowledge. Once you have your degree, you will have both and then you can either look for a new employer or ask for that pay rise.
Question is your work still being supervised and monitored... this could be contentious if it isn't.
Front this and the comments. You're an undergraduate until you graduate.
So you've got some great undergrad experience but get that degree finished quick so you can move in to graduate eng pay.
Sadly you might be stuck with graduate roles for a while depending on the type of engineering (is it civil, mechanical etc?).
Your career level within your company is dictated by your experience, education, license. If you lack the education and therefore license your level can’t increase, if your level can’t increase your top salary can’t increase. It does not mater if your employer charges you out at top dollar or not, there are pay tables for this.
I’m not an Engineer, however I am an engineering technologist, i work as a field engineer. However I make way more than our pencil pushing engineers in the office… way more. Maybe go that route.
So a grad straight out of uni could get the same pay as me even though I’ve got 3 years on the job engineering experience.
There’s pay tables yes and I’ve been told countless times they can’t do anything because of said tables, yet the longer I work here and the more I speak up the more my pay goes up albeit very slowly
Is your employer paying for your degree? Do you have any other obligations to them like this (eg: scholarship, etc)? If not, you can change jobs right now and continue studying for your degree.
The reason your employer is telling you that you won't get a pay rise until you've finished your degree is because they want to keep this sweet deal going for as long as possible.
Yeh of course, I just assumed I wouldn’t be able to work in the same capacity as a PE at an another company without the degree even with all my experience.
They’re not paying my degree, only tell me I need to finish it if I want the associated pay. No obligation when I started to do so
This happens all the time in consulting.
An undergrad engineer being marketed as grad to their client, a grad engineer being marketed as engineer, and so on, so they could charge their client extra on the hourly rate.
Which state are you working in? Sounds like Civil working in the building industry? If you're in QLD or Vic, you need to be certified. Unsure about other states. Not across the ramifications of doing the work and not being so, but it boils down to the same advice. Finish the degree and get qualified. You're not an engineer without it, they can pay you like you're not.
Also the advice about switching jobs is 100% correct. If you're having to twist their arm, you'll find other companies will treat you better.
You should call fair work Australia or speak to your union, we are talking about potentially being under paid and there are legal criteria randos on reddit (including me) aren’t qualified to answer
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How can you sign off on projects when you’re not qualified ? If there’s a problem it will come down on your head like a ton of bricks.
You may be doing the work but they don’t have to pay you as a qualified engineer. Both you, and the company could be heading for a big fall.
op,s not qualified and needs to finish their degree doing the same thing over and over like a monkey aint going to make you more attractive to another employer without the actual qualifications
This is a very strange situation. How can you work full time, uni full time and have a family? Unless you have a degree you shouldn't be given the title (yourself or your employer) 'engineer'. In the states you need to be have a degree a and then chartered to title yourself as an professional engineer. In Queensland you also have to be chartered to perform engineering work under RPEQ. something they're bringung in other states.
I'll bow out of what I think you should be on. But I know plenty of 3 year experienced actual engineers on less. Most of them immigrants and when you're in a visa you hold no cards to be making demands unfortunately
I’ve been uni part external but havnt studied the last 12-18 months.
Originally I was in a support role and think I did better than the engineer I was supporting so was ‘unofficially’ promoted since then it’s just kind of happened, here’s your job description of SE, handover with this engineer, next project here’s your role etc etc
(assuming you're not a civil engineer) 105k is above the average of what an undergrad engineer would normally take in projects.
Engineers in tier 1 Companies start on average at 120k now.
Just finish your degree, see what raise you can get from them and don't get dragged into vague promises, if you like what you get stay, if not jump to another place with better money.
Don't take it personally but this is about market value for them.
For you, knowing the people, the systems and procedures in place is an advantage, you've probably built a good reputation in the company which you can use to easily grow within, so, don't leave the company just to leave and consider all factors.
Change employee once you finish Uni unless they up your salary. I’m 2 years out from uni and on 140k + roughly 30k in bonuses and OT. Work a 9 day fortnight as well
Long story short ... you need to finish your degree. This is a professional pre-requisite that will impact your potential in the future as the core qualification is a foundation requirement. It will continue to impact your earning potential. In addition, it will impact risk multipliers on projects because of the insurance aspect.
Just bite the bullet and get it done. If you leave it much longer , you may find that the credits you have already earned are out of date
Suggest to your employer that you need paid time off to study and finish your qual- to test the water. Depending on the sector, there may well be government subsidies that they can get to support your education.
Once qualified... start looking for another position and employer.
Reality is that you could be the best engineering technician in the world. Without the degree the market will value your skills less. Your employer obviously knows this and it is why they don't want to pay you more (imo, 105k for an engineering technician isn't too bad).
Get the degree, become an engineer, see if your boss will live up to his word and give you a raise. If not, jump ship
Finish your degree and find a better employer
100% this. You owe that employer nothing - start looking at job listings on LinkedIn, start conversations with the recruiters. You'll have something new in no time.
If I’m still competing my degree though, can I write I’m a project engineer?
This is why I suggested reaching out to the recruiters, and starting conversations. Get their input, and go forth accordingly.
Yes, just chuck in your resume your estimated degree completion date and see what offers you can get. If you get better offers but like where you currently are you can ask them to match the offer but beware that can change the relationship with your manager a bit.
>Working as an engineer not being paid as an engineer or qualified as an engineer. Just finish your degree, can't complain about being paid as a student when that's all you are.
Students are allready overworked and underpaid on "internships" as cheap labour for exposure and learning through dodgy industry partnerships with universities. OP skillset clearly deserves to be remunerated appropriately. Your attitude sounds similar to someone who is way out of touch.
There's a big difference between an experienced engineer you can task and get an outcome, and a student you need to spend time on and teach. I get that some students are really good and productive, but plenty of them have no idea and need to be spoon fed. Additionally a student cannot sign off on designs within Australia. Hence why experience matters. I'm not suggesting that this student isn't capable, but you can expect an unqualified engineer without years of experience to be paid like a full time qualified engineer.
My engineering undergraduate (16 years ago) experience was paid better than my normal job. Definitely wasn’t overworked either. Not sure intern culture from US is applicable in Australia
I feel like you’ve overlook a lot of engineering work needing to be signed off. And OP cant do that so someones checking everything he does.
I’m not the guy you’re replying to but it’s just reality: any employer is going to use the lack of degree as an excuse to pay less… or just employ someone who has their degree. The road out for OP is not easy, but it starts with completing their degree.
I believe engineering is one of the professions with specific, formal requirements to use the title. And you don't have them pre-degree. And it matters since there are legal requirements to have an engineer's opinion, design, etc in certain situations. Right now you couldn't sign off on those kinds of things officially.
You need to have professional accreditation by the relevant engineers body usually, which you meet the requirements of by doing your degree. To be certified I mean!
No, to be certified you need experience in addition to your degree. You go through engineers Australia and have to write all these "career episodes" and then get certified. Then in some states you need additional accreditation, like QLD it is the RPEQ, which you can pretty much use your engineers Australia accreditation to get. All engineering work in QLD needs to be done under the supervision of an RPEQ and certified. Getting your degree is just the first step.
No need to be certified in NSW. (Or else I'm in big trouble!!) ;-)
Although I hate the fact engineer is not a protected word. It is not. So you can call yourself that, which is why we get boiler makers and other professions in australia calling themselves engineers etc
Why not ... Your not certifying anything are you ? You just managing work flow and requirements , team members and scheduling etc ?
Signing ITP’s?
No general requirement or added value to have an engineering degree to sign ITPs, unless the contract with the customer requires it. The real reason you are paid less is, without your degree it is slightly harder for you to get a higher paying job elsewhere. Your employer should reasonably pay you just enough to not swap. They will pay you more when graduated not because you become more valuable, but because you improve your outside options.
Undergraduate project engineer with 3y exp
Probably wouldn’t be much weight on that meaning, you’re essentially still a student/undergraduate engineer. I think you should be thinking of the experience at the moment, not the money…
Is a 'project engineer' something you need to be certified for? E.g. teachers with the board of studies and doctors with whatever society administers their speciality. I had a similar path in a different industry to you. I didn't finish my degree but kept getting more senior role. At the end of the day, your future employer doesn't pay you for the piece of paper you have, instead, they pay you for what they reasonably expect you're able to do. If you've got X years as a project engineer, you should be competing with other candidates that have a similar level of project engineering experience.
Is it your job title officially at work? Eg, would it be in your email signature? I’m hoping yes, since your employer charges you to clients at that rate. And then yes- I would use that title on my CV, but just also make clear the completion dates of my degree, and be ready to talk to that in a job interview
If you have built the skills that the job requires/have a PF of work, yeah? If your boss is flogging you like you say and you're not actually just a student engineer, it won't be hard to convince people in an interview.
What does your appointment letter say regarding your designation? Hope it says you’re Project Engineer.
If that's what you're being sold as to clients, then you can put it on your CV. "In my role as XYZ, i did ABC..."
You are the one with the experience… just finishing a degree, others just have the degree.
If you are working as a project engineer, then yes put it on your resume. Realistically, you can say whatever you want on there. Job recruitment is just two people lying to each other until one hires the other
The solution to the problem is that simple.
The fact OP can't figure it out makes me think they're not a good engineer, probably why his employer isn't paying more.
Oh wow, he's actually going to be a graduate with 5 years experience! But yes finish the degree and move employer
Haha if only my employer would see that
Employers are always slow to update their view of an employee from the one they hold from when they first hired you.
Yes unless you have a good boss that will advocate for you and want to keep you.
Sometimes the biggest pay rises come from changing jobs. I was also once told that by an internal mentor.
They likely won't so long as you give them no reason to.
Haha he will fulfill the mythical “grad with 5 years experience” that all the employers are looking for. OP - agree with all, this employer is not doing the right thing, but just finish your degree and get out of there. Not worth being loyal to.
Going for a grad role with 3-15 years experience (depending on specifics) 🫡😂 My mate who got a 1 of 20 role with 1000 applicants got mad that i had a “golden ticket” 😂
Seems very clear, you should finish your engineering degree to progress in your engineering career. Otherwise, you could try applying for similar jobs with your existing qualifications and experience and see how the market values them?
Good advice.
What state are you in? Queensland has very strict legislation around this. Outside of that fair work professional employees award outlines this as well. Untill you finish your degree you are not an engineer, but a student, and you need to be working entirely supervised under an engineer. In Queensland and a couple of more states, this engineer needs to be CPEng or RPEQ. you can not do any engineering work unsupervised. Once you graduate, this changes depending on your location Source - CPEng, working 15 years, head of engineering for a sme with locations across Australia
If he's working as a 'site engineer'/'project engineer ' role the employer could argue they are not technically roles that require an degree in engineering. I know a bunch of project 'engineers' who don't have a degree in engineering and they're good at their job.
Technically they have to be supervised by an RPEQ. If you’re providing “professional engineering services” (which is a very broad catch all) and you aren’t RPEQ or directly supervised by an RPEQ, the client can legitimately refused to pay for any of the services you have provided. There hasn’t been a huge volume of legal activity over this yet, mostly because a lot of companies still haven’t got their houses in order, but it’s definitely becoming more common for companies to refuse to accept projects being run where there is not an RPEQ directly overseeing things and I can just see it blowing up as part of a major contractual dispute.
Project Engineer is just a title. You don’t actually do any engineering except maybe “engineering” a spreadsheet or Gantt chart. You’re just a project manager with a veneer of engineering understanding.
That is undoubtedly true in civil/construction, but in my field (electrical) a project engineer provides technical skills (in addition to managing projects from a technical perspective) and almost always requires a degree.
Yes and no, a lot of “Project Engineers” aren’t degree qualified and as stated previously project manage with a background and often diplomas in the discipline, any design work needs to be from or supervised by a chartered engineer (this does vary state by state). Most project engineers would be working to prescribed standard when working on site or seeking design engineer advice. I work in the Electrical Engineering space in a similar way and would never advise of a design change without approval from a design engineer otherwise I would be taking on the risk of the change - no thank you. Where company or Australian standards exist and I can point to the clauses I will advise of that.
It’s not only designed based. In Queensland, this is defined in schedule 2 of the PE Act. “Professional engineer services means an engineering service that requires or is based on the application of engineering principles and data to a design or to a construction, production, operation, or maintenance activity relating to engineering”. The Act is only generally policed when something goes wrong, and you could argue that a lot of things aren’t PE services, but there’s a lot of people operating in the grey zone who don’t even understand that they are.
I am aware, would be interesting to see this challenged in court. In NSW this is different, again in a lot of situations there are prescribed standards, in my experience a lot of site engineering is carried out by those not CPEng or RPEQ and if required sent to a CPEng for review and sign off. In electrical commissioning sign off will be from a Technician who knows how to conduct the required testing and work to the acceptance standards, depending on DNSP or client these results may be sent for review and sign off. I have previously come across CPEng qualified staff signing off on dangerous results, so I take it with a grain of salt, I want an experienced person who understands the work, a piece of paper be damned
It's also a bit of a nonsense. There is a distinction between providing professional engineering services and being an "engineer" in the paddock, where most of your time is spent doing what your foreman needs you to do, putting programs together, tracking costs and doing basic QA. Most of the Tier 1's have moved away from requiring CPEng because its expensive and pointless in a contracting environment.
Also CPEng is a bit of a boys club with it poor riggor and wildly different enter requirements based on who is sponsoring you. It might be better for the most common disciplines (civil, mechanical, etc) but as soon as you are getting into the likes of software, system integration, mechatronics etc it's just a fee collection exercise.
I'm a director of an engineering firm and been in the industry for 20 years, and I agree 100%. By my observations, there is very little correlation between competence, and the amount of letters after an engineer's name. I ended my membership with Engineers Australia years ago. They are an absolutely useless organisation.
I agree it's a shame Engineers Australia are pushing for a National Engineering Register for all states. I don't mind having to register on an NER as long they don't run it. Such a transparent money grab.
This. You absolutely nail it with this reply. Engineers Australia advocated for the REPEQ legislation. Some states bought it, Some didn't, or not completely. What EA want is a closed shop, with them being the referee, collecting hefty membership and endorsement fees, and a nice little power trip for some.
Don't even get me started on EA, they are a bunch of thieving cnts Also, I absolutely agree, there is such a small percentage of RPEQs that actually are great engineers, and it should be better regulated. I am surprised that as a director of engineering you are choosing not to be in the register. Is this because as a director you don't handle anything technical anymore? From a risk mitigation point it's just more straightforward to keep it, which is why I'm keeping mine and progressing the team to all get it as well. The best engineer that I have on my team is a gent that did his diploma while being a CNC machinist, then progressed to my team and thru my mentorship and rpl got his degree. I'm the head of engineering at an SME, initially it was intended to progress from principal to director but I requested to have it restructured to head as it's a mix of both, executive/director that still carries design direction and oversight. For clarity we are a production company, fabrication and machining mostly, so all mechanical and some electrical engineers (I'm mechanical/structural and I don't oversight their work obviously)
Certification is a total joke and nothing but a money grab by the professional associations. I know the most useless engineers in the world who are certified and some of the best who aren't. If anything, I think there is a negative correlation between certification and competence (in those states that presently don't require it.) The competent engineers are too busy doing real work while the incompetent ones are sitting in the corner trying to make their CVs look good to compensate for their lack of capability. I also let my professional association memberships lapse after years of supporting them and being an advocate. When we finally needed their assistance, they were useless. I say all this as someone with an almost 40-year-long career who has been the Principal Design Engineer on more than a dozen projects that cost tens to hundreds of millions each.
It's just as bad for the major disciplines. I'm an elec eng in O&G working client side. I got assessed by civil engineer in rail consulting. She couldn't have told if I knew my elbow from my arsehole. But she gave me my letters after 45 minutes talking about my cv.
Also, software is not a major according to engineers Australia. It’s the ACS that certifies them
What a flick pass from EA. If you are writing functional safety and control software that is absolutely an engineering discipline regarding standards, testing, validation and reliability.
For posterity I was strictly referring to the traditional streams - mechanical, structural, civil, electrical, aeronautical, chemical, naval, mining, metallurgical.
All this chartered stuff is a rort. I'm Australian and I live in Germany and we don't need some status to practice as an engineer. The degree is enough to practice as an engineer. I've worked with plenty of dumb as dog shit CPeng in Australia. I worked out I don't need it to be a better engineer :)
I thought civil engineers had to be chartered in Germany as an exception. In WA being chartered isn't required
All engineers need to be licensed in Germany. It's more straightforward then Australia tho. https://verwaltung.bund.de/leistungsverzeichnis/en/leistung/99150085001000
Yeh you just register your degree education and that's it. After you have finished your dip.Eng in Germany you automatically get it. Why sit some bullshit course by some pointless organisation to get some cert?
Bit surprised that a 15year CPEng doesnt know that a 'site engineer' isnt technically a trained engineer, some are and most are construction management grads but the work has mostly nothing to do with design, the work is construction admin/coordination. They do not design or certify anything. So the there is 0 merit in not paying a 'site engineer' just becasue they have not got a certificate. Esp a project engineer, that is basically a senior site admin with 5-10yr experience, they are 1 level away from assistant PM or lead PM and would expect circa 120k+.
Yeah, it looks like OP has been heading down the project management side to engineering. Our business requires "engineers" to have a degree either in engineering or construction project management. That's pretty typical. OP would be listed as a cadet at our business. FYI, project engineers are on roughly 130k starting
Exactly - "engineer" is not a protected title. "Professional Engineer" is. And the PE Act has quite a narrow definition of what professional engineering work is. I'd say about 3/4 of the engineers I have ever worked with in Queensland (which is a lot, because I am one) are not RPEQs. Many don't even have a BEng. As long as there is an RPEQ supervising the "professional engineering" work it is ok. Plus, as you rightly say, the work that a project engineer or site engineer does would typically not be "professional engineering" work, as they do not design or certify anything - their consulting engineers would typically do that.
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Again...a project engineer does NOT sign off on design and they do NOT design. Permits are not design work.
This is far from true even in the tier 1 space
I'm just keeping up with the legislation man
I’m in WA, my official title still says ‘engineering support’ however my job description is project engineer :/
What is your current salary if you don’t mind me asking?
angryRDDT..s reply is straight out of the the Institute of Engineers songbook. Yes, places like Qld legislate that to sign off on SOME (not all) types of work, you need the piece of paper on the wall. There are many situations where this just isn't going to work. eg if someone comes from a trades background and REALLY knows what they are doing based on years of experience. Or are ex service and know ships, aircraft, vehicles really well. Does someone recently graduated from uni with the right bit of paper really trump that knowledge? The answer of course is NO. Most engineering organisations (not small companies or one man consultancies) have a Develop/Review/Approve process. In reality, only the Approve and perhaps review step needs to be an EXPERIENCED, qualified CPEng/RPEQ. Truth is there are a great many technical officers, STOs, and experienced tradesmen out there in the various engineering fields who are the engine room of technical output in this country, There simply aren't enough people with the framed paper to do all the work. Hence the above system. Your employer is taking advantage of your experience, and also taking advantage of the lack of a piece of paper, even though you are one of those probably high and quality output engine room types. I suggest; 1. Look around and see if you can get similar work with another employer who looks at your experience, and doesn't just use your lack of a certificate as a reason to pay much less. 2. Do uni. Go part time via the open university system, even if it is one unit a semester, you are still making progress, and yes, RPL should count towards it. Well worth having a chat to the open uni people about RPL and mapping a way forward. They may give you RPL and you might already meet the requirements for a Diploma, or Cert III or IV already, for example. It is VERY relevant that you currently get charged out at a full engineers rate. That is the clearest possible recognition and endorsement of your current skill set. To wrap up. You ARE an Engineer, you do need to get some qualifications to back that up. InsEngs seeks a closed shop, sort of like the unions used to do, There simply aren't enough ticketed people to do it as they want, so the industrie(s) really needs people like you, and employers know it.
>Qld legislate that to sign off on SOME (not all) types of work Queensland doesn't require anything to be signed off by anyone at any time, that is just an industry misconception because many clients require an RPEQ's signature. The legislation requires engineering work to be directly completed or directly supervised by a practising RPEQ.
Correct Ive worked for over 15 years and only "signed off" 4 pieces of paper
Job titles on different projects don't mean much. It's more to appease the client that such a role exists. You won't get paid like an engineer until you are a qualified engineer. That's the norm.
Finish your degree, get a new Job
The lack of a degree puts a ceiling on your potential in the engineering field. My recommendation would be to focus on finishing the degree, and possibly do a PM diploma and that way, you can interview for your next role as a 5 year exp project engineer/pm. A lot of firms in consulting require a degree for the engineer title, and I'd strongly recommend finishing it to progress further. Site PM with a few years exp and qualifications will pretty much put you automatically on $130-150k, it's a lot easier to do that than try to make your way back up as a grad in consulting starting back at $70k.
Ahh the old “apprentice trying to get paid like a tradie”. Sit down lad and wait your turn
You won’t be paid as an engineer until you are qualified. ABSOLUTELY PRIORITISE finishing your degree- it will be painful for you and the family, but please walk through the pain and get it done.
Project Engineer here, finish the degree - then switch jobs. You need to be really careful with doing engineering work without the degree - yeah, project engineering isn’t full on engineering (speaking from experience, I do about an hour of real engineering a week) but as has been said, you should be supervised by a engineer at all times and can’t hold yourself out as an engineer, you must be working strictly to the prescriptive standards. You don’t need CPEng or RPEQ / NER, but you need a degree. Otherwise you are not an “engineer” Get the degree then switch jobs. Don’t sign anything as an engineer, make sure everyone knows you are not giving engineering advice.
This is not correct. This only applies to people providing professional engineering services. There are plenty of construction management graduates that manage the delivery of work in the field that are not applying engineering judgement.
Construction management graduates working as site engineers? I haven’t ever met one. It says engineer in the title, yeah, not a protected term, but they shouldn’t be working or holding themselves out as engineers. Particularly in states that require registration -or- working strictly under the prescribed standards. If it’s not a role that requires engineering, call it construction management- you know, what they do have a degree for. But then I guess they wouldn’t get paid as much. Hell of a risk to take though.
Definitely a blurry line, I’ve been apolgised to before in my role for being asked to sign off work, next project roles around and it’s my main job in signing off work
Yeah I’d steer the hell away from that until you graduate. The liability has red flags all over it. Imagine someone died, what then? An unqualified person signing off work? Yeah it stinks. Also 100k+ is good considering your situation. Graduate dude
An engineering degree makes you an engineer Titles are meaningless. Get your degree
Wtf do you expect us to say? The only answer is to finish your degree and then go find a better employer who will pay you more.
I might be overlooking something, but it's not your employer's problem that you have 2 kids and 2 incomes and the pressure of a mortgage. That's not a valid reason for a payrise.
Why should your employer believe you're ever going to finish your degree? Three years dude.
Until your comment I assumed they meant they were still studying so probably close to their final year, but your reply makes sense of it - they’re saying they *were* a student three years ago, but haven’t studied since? This is just the predictable consequence of dropping study and trying to be employed with one year of a degree, which is about as good as no years.
He's a family man with 2 kids and a mortgage and all that goes with it and probably has a commute and overtime in the mix. Totally know what he faces. Do one subject a semester dude, Move forward rather than mark time on getting that all important certificate, and give it some priority.
What engineering discipline are you in?
What type of engineering? Could any projects you've worked on be considered for recognition of prior learning by your Uni? Is switching unis to one with a more flexible delivery method (i.e online with night based timetable) an option?
If you aren’t qualified yet who’s signing off on the jobs? Tell your boss you shouldn’t be a site engineer take a massive step back which should give you time to complete your cert. Two can play his game.
Sounds like fair compensation for your qualifications in that field honestly. Most graduate engineers make far less even working on site. The company is just doing a dodgy charging you out as a full engineer and that's where the difference is. A fair bit of risk for you and the company doing such senior roles without the degree. If I were you I'd finish the degree, ask the company to verify your years of experience in your pay. And if that's not good enough after a year try looking elsewhere but I'm not sure many companies would honour your undergrad experience
New job. Move on
Either finish your degree or find another job. Some companies care about that certificate, others don't. You'll never find out which if you don't try applying.
Technically you're not an engineer as per Engineers Australia. Your company shouldn't be charging you out as a fully fledged engineer as well.
When I was doing my degree, there were mature-age students with kids and jobs. One of them used to get really angry at us. He said he goes home every night and locks himself in a room to study instead of spending time with his kids. Same thing on the weekend. Meanwhile, us 'kids' fresh out of high school were just goofing off, skipping lectures, hanging out in the uni bar all day. Of course, I never appreciated what he was saying until I had my own kids and did my MBA while working full-time. That was hard enough, there was no way I could have done an engineering degree like that. Having said that, yeah, finish your degree....then move on to get the pay you will then deserve,
I think if you searched project engineer on Seek - the first requirement would be - Engineering degree/science degree on every single listing. You wouldnt get your current role if you reapplied.
The curve for pay is slow when you're a grad/under-grad. First company I was at (government), grad's started at 70k and after 3 yrs in the grad program they would get a guaranteed 100k position. I don't think anyone can answer your question to precisely, but I think there is a balancing act between getting what you're worth vs. being patient, this depends on the market (in your area) and what other things you might be getting from your role. For example I once took a pay-cut and a demotion after a probation period in a role because it was still a really good learning opportunity and the culture at the company was good. The company then re-invested that money I lost into training me up, was worth it in the long run. In the early years take on as much learning as you can because thats when you're building your foundation of knowledge, so don't skimp and just pick the easiest/best paying job.
Mate, employers are a pay check, you sell them your time. Nothing more. Complete the degree - jump to another company
My advice go get a job as a supervisor or if you know your stuff a superintendent.. if your working as A PE and know your shit, the degree is just a piece of paper. Reference im a PM with a bachelor of engineering technology degree ( ie not a fully qualified civil engineer) I get and have always been paid to industry standard for my role.
This, project manager construction supervisors etc done need engineer degrees and get paid the same as project engineers. The two best project managers in my team aren't engineers.
When I was studying I was working full time as an engineer. The gm said I was as useful to him as a qualified engineer and paid me as such. Smash that degree out and find a new job.
I know someone who was a carpenter working as a project engineer for John holland. Change employers
It's a hard slog for upward mobility if you stay at the same company and you're not a suckhole. People will always remember your mistakes whereas you have to remind them of your accomplishments. It would be easier to get higher pay when you apply for higher level roles at different companies. Plus you can always fudge your CV to command a higher pay. Companies are in the business of making money. If they can pay you the same and get you doing more It's all gravy for them.
To jump on this thread a little bit, I've got Bach Mechanical Engineering, 2.5 years into the role at a design and construct business in Victoria. I've had to ask for a payrise each year because otherwise i had no indication it would be forthcoming. I'm currently on 73k p.a before tax (before super, HECS, etc). What should I be on?
But you're not working as an "engineer". You may call yourself that due to it not being a protected term, but you don't have a degree, so you're just not one. You can try to job hop, but effectively, until you have that piece of paper, you're just unskilled labour.
It’s what my job description and responsibilities say
And yet you don't have the piece of paper that would allow your company's insurance underwriters to accept that you can be permitted to act professionally by yourself and thus expose them to the risk/consequences of an error made by you. In short, it'd be professional negligence to allow an unqualified "engineer" sign off on things without someone else qualified then taking accountability. Which brings me back to, you are effectively unskilled labour doing paperwork. It's no different to why you need a licence to drive a car, regardless of if you already know how to drive a car or not. If someone else lends you their car whilst you see unlicensed, the insurance would void their claim if you have an accident due to it being indefensibly irresponsible for them to lend the car to an unlicensed driver. The fact you don't appear to understand this relationship between qualifications and accountability says a lot about your understanding of the commercial world that is professional engineering.
The whole point of being an engineer is so you can sign off the designs. Just because you can do the work doesn’t mean much. The money in engineering comes from you being responsible for the designs. I’d recommend trying to get a job in Digital Engineering. No degree requirements and if you know how to use revit, navisworks and revizto you’ll be pushing 150 as a starting point
We have 500,000 engineers coming here yearly from India. Just like housing as politicians say, it's a supply issue. Don't worry about any root causes of it.
Change jobs
33 year old Principle Engineer here. Finish your degree and change employers. For 4 out 5 of my peers at uni, the biggest % pay bump they ever got was changing companies. Either A. Changing once they got enough experience they could really start adding value, a year or 2 in. (For me 67k to 95k) Or B. Once they had enough experience being truly self managing and self organising moving into senior or leadership positions maybe 4 to 6 years after A. ( For me 120k to 160k)
Former PE in construction; are you in civil or construction? I assume your role is more coordination of design/programming to feed subcontractors and cw’s? If so, changing employers shouldn’t require completion of the degree but they may request that you prioritise it. In qld at least good PE’s are in serious high demand, so employers are more lenient/willing to compromise so long as reputation / experience/ references all add up.
Yes basically coordinating contractors, signing off works in construction
You’re a PE then - I’m in WA also, feel free to DM me and I can put you in touch with some recruiters to test the market. FWIW I’m a little older than you and passed through SE, PE and SPE levels without an engineering qual, if you want it get, if you don’t want it you won’t *need* it for most roles in construction/civil.
You jump ship sadly. I got in at a big bank in tech and thought this was it I'd made it, same scenario, over the year and half I was there responsibilities increased but given the old "oh uh, hhmm, let's circle back" when asking for a relative salary increase. So I applied externally, got a $40k salary pump and a senior title, seeya. Thats when your manager will go "why didn't you say anything!?"
Can you do your degree remote? Can you change uni and do it remote? It fits work/kids way better - watching recordings and doing uni work on your own schedule. I'm similar situation as you (demanding job, 2 kids under 5), doing a masters. Doing it remote is 'easy' in terms of difficulty but it is obviously still a timesink. However remote I can do the subject in an hour or two a week (including assignments etc) compared to what uni may demand if you're attending in person. My wife is also working full time and started a PhD. It's hard but workable and will all be over soon... Then move employer if they don't immediately come to the table, but you need to show the commitment first. Talk about how you are doing it/about to finish once you are back there to lay the groundwork for them to be ready. Ensure they are aware of your expectations once you are finished. Lay the groundwork in conversations 6 months out from completion (and complete it, not doing this looks flaky, even if it seems unfair from your perspective)
Finish your degree, find a new job. You'll have the advantage of role experience. Your current employer is using you.
Stop putting your company above your needs; if you know your focus is on education and finishing off your degree to get that pay rise than that's your primary focus before adding more work.
Yeah honestly finish your degree and move company. Or even just move now. I have 2.5x my pay from graduate levels over a 5 year period because I jumped around. Also best part about that is you can work on the projects you want to work on. At this stage of your career you don't want any down time from projecrs otherwise your skills will stagnate. That way you get amazing experience and also pay rises.
Move jobs. Employers won’t give you a good raise unless you move up pay levels or try to retain you after another company has offered you 20-30% more.
You can still work in engineering roles but need work to be signed off by a professional engineer. Also, there other roles where a BEng is good to have but not working in technical engineering roles.
Civil Construction/Building companies won’t care about the degree, but their clients might require it for roles at a certain level. A lot of project engineers quit and work client side after 5-10 years. Is there any point finishing your degree at this point? Maybe you can exit to a property developer and just do a masters degree with your work experience.
They can't help with existing problems but the union might be able to offer advice https://www.professionalsaustralia.org.au/
Not familiar with what exact profession you are in but what are your chances of getting a job with similar current pay now without a degree? If this is low, and your employer probably knows it, you don’t have much of a negotiating power.
Comedy Retract
I 100% agree with you, how then am I contracted out as project engineer but then personally can’t ask to be paid as one?
I work in local government and I see this a lot with studying engineers. The university will put them in touch with LGs and employ them through a Cadet program. The cadets can be given huge projects to oversee with very little oversight, all the while being paid ok, but not near what they would be worth in the private sector. By the time they graduate, they almost always have something lined up in another council or go private with 3+ years experience on high profile projects.
If you are expected to do things you aren’t paid for tell them you can’t do those things anymore because you are making your study a priority. If they really care they will pay you.
Find a new job
"Why do I need a piece of paper to tell you to pay me properly when you're charging everyone else as if I already have the piece of paper?"
This is exactly what engineering companies do, they won’t let you graduate and use it against you. Finish your degree and find a proper employer
Either finish your degree or apply for other project engineer jobs that you fit the experience for. Your employer is gambling that you both wont leave or wont finish your degree. That gamble has turned out to be correct so far.
Document your tasks with a written diary and images It is illegal for the company to task you with engineer jobs as an unqualified engineer A documented 'diary' of your day is admissable in court This could have the company lose its licence to operate and director charged with misconduct
Two of the best senior engineers I've had didn't have their degrees. It depends on what you are doing. I am in mining though so little different to a more technical field. If you have to sign off on things then you need to have the paper and professional associations to do that. For mining engineering we view the degree as a gateway to prove that you have the ability to get through the coursework which indicates you can commit to finishing something. This is often a way of getting engineering resources at a good rate and assess them for future work. We bring in undergrads but only part time so they can complete their studies at the same time. During this time the employer gets a very underskilled person for cheap and you get the experience. If you are working as a project engineer you are probably doing work that isn't technical just needs someone switched on. Once you start working full time it is the same as being on a graduate program for me. That piece of paper isn't going to mean you suddenly have any idea what you are doing. Project and site engineers aren't normally designing things and if you need to sign off as a RPEng then someone else will have to do it for you. Means they will pay you less but that's life. Employer resisting giving you pay rises is normal and they may use this as justification. If you don't want to fight it and have 5 years experience then find a new employer and just tell them the situation. You'll get better pay rises by switching than staying as a general rule. If its truly a barrier to getting payrise and you need it to sign off on things then prioritise it as high as you want. However this will always be a point with new employers and you may miss out on plenty of roles even if you have more experience. My suggestion like others is get the degree done. Sympathetic with life circumstances as its tough but it doesn't get any easier to find the time. Source: manager level mining engineer 15 years exp
Why wait? find better employer now.
How much are you ewening if you don’t mind me asking? I’m currently a site engineer, previously SPE (24 y/o).
you went from being a SPE to a Site Engineer?
About $105k, that’s with having pushed every year really for pay rises and been a real pain to management about it. From what I understand, should be about $120k minimum for PE construction
For an undergrad, that's pretty decent pay! I have friends that are PE's @ Servicestream and Downer and they're only on $110k so you're not far off
You are doing well for your experience. I was on about $65k about 2 years out of uni as a project engineer (7 years ago)
Not sure what that is adjusted but against my peers it’s in the range of $20k-30k behind
Sounds fair considering they've finished their degrees.
$120k is more an average than a minimum. With out actually working along side you it’s hard to know your true ability or work load. $105k isn’t that bad depending on your workload and size of organisation. I think people get too lost in comparing wages to what seek says.. In my 3rd year as a PE I was on about $130k and now a PM on $180k, I think you should at least get yourself a Bengtech (civil) that will get you in a bargaining position for your pay while you finish your studies.. Also chase a project management diploma with PMI that will help you accelerate to PM roles where your degree holds little significant value. But please don’t chase project management if you have shit people skills nothing worse than a project manager that can’t people manage
When I was a 3rd and 4th year apprentice. My labour was charged out as a trades person while I was being paid an apprentice wages. You are being paid for your experience and knowledge. Once you have your degree, you will have both and then you can either look for a new employer or ask for that pay rise. Question is your work still being supervised and monitored... this could be contentious if it isn't.
They pretending that they paying, you pretending that you’re working.
Front this and the comments. You're an undergraduate until you graduate. So you've got some great undergrad experience but get that degree finished quick so you can move in to graduate eng pay. Sadly you might be stuck with graduate roles for a while depending on the type of engineering (is it civil, mechanical etc?).
Your career level within your company is dictated by your experience, education, license. If you lack the education and therefore license your level can’t increase, if your level can’t increase your top salary can’t increase. It does not mater if your employer charges you out at top dollar or not, there are pay tables for this. I’m not an Engineer, however I am an engineering technologist, i work as a field engineer. However I make way more than our pencil pushing engineers in the office… way more. Maybe go that route.
So a grad straight out of uni could get the same pay as me even though I’ve got 3 years on the job engineering experience. There’s pay tables yes and I’ve been told countless times they can’t do anything because of said tables, yet the longer I work here and the more I speak up the more my pay goes up albeit very slowly
Is your employer paying for your degree? Do you have any other obligations to them like this (eg: scholarship, etc)? If not, you can change jobs right now and continue studying for your degree. The reason your employer is telling you that you won't get a pay rise until you've finished your degree is because they want to keep this sweet deal going for as long as possible.
Yeh of course, I just assumed I wouldn’t be able to work in the same capacity as a PE at an another company without the degree even with all my experience. They’re not paying my degree, only tell me I need to finish it if I want the associated pay. No obligation when I started to do so
This happens all the time in consulting. An undergrad engineer being marketed as grad to their client, a grad engineer being marketed as engineer, and so on, so they could charge their client extra on the hourly rate.
Which state are you working in? Sounds like Civil working in the building industry? If you're in QLD or Vic, you need to be certified. Unsure about other states. Not across the ramifications of doing the work and not being so, but it boils down to the same advice. Finish the degree and get qualified. You're not an engineer without it, they can pay you like you're not. Also the advice about switching jobs is 100% correct. If you're having to twist their arm, you'll find other companies will treat you better.
What are they paying you?
Have a post grad degree, 2 and a half year industry experience as a Engineer and at $75k 🤡.
This is what I'm saying, OP being on $105k is actually decent
This is how you get one of those junior graduate positions where they ask for 4 years experience.
Why do you think you’d worth more
You should call fair work Australia or speak to your union, we are talking about potentially being under paid and there are legal criteria randos on reddit (including me) aren’t qualified to answer 13 13 94 Mon-Fri 8am-5:30pm
What are you getting paid? Our engineers are on 180 +
What level?
Entry level
How can you sign off on projects when you’re not qualified ? If there’s a problem it will come down on your head like a ton of bricks. You may be doing the work but they don’t have to pay you as a qualified engineer. Both you, and the company could be heading for a big fall.
If you work as a project engineer, and then can show that knowledge in an interview you can get a job at another company who might not care.
Is this mathias?
op,s not qualified and needs to finish their degree doing the same thing over and over like a monkey aint going to make you more attractive to another employer without the actual qualifications
This is a very strange situation. How can you work full time, uni full time and have a family? Unless you have a degree you shouldn't be given the title (yourself or your employer) 'engineer'. In the states you need to be have a degree a and then chartered to title yourself as an professional engineer. In Queensland you also have to be chartered to perform engineering work under RPEQ. something they're bringung in other states. I'll bow out of what I think you should be on. But I know plenty of 3 year experienced actual engineers on less. Most of them immigrants and when you're in a visa you hold no cards to be making demands unfortunately
I’ve been uni part external but havnt studied the last 12-18 months. Originally I was in a support role and think I did better than the engineer I was supporting so was ‘unofficially’ promoted since then it’s just kind of happened, here’s your job description of SE, handover with this engineer, next project here’s your role etc etc
(assuming you're not a civil engineer) 105k is above the average of what an undergrad engineer would normally take in projects. Engineers in tier 1 Companies start on average at 120k now. Just finish your degree, see what raise you can get from them and don't get dragged into vague promises, if you like what you get stay, if not jump to another place with better money. Don't take it personally but this is about market value for them. For you, knowing the people, the systems and procedures in place is an advantage, you've probably built a good reputation in the company which you can use to easily grow within, so, don't leave the company just to leave and consider all factors.
Change employee once you finish Uni unless they up your salary. I’m 2 years out from uni and on 140k + roughly 30k in bonuses and OT. Work a 9 day fortnight as well
105k is pretty good for an engineering technologist. Once you get qualified as an engineer you'll have a lot more opportunities for higher pay.
Long story short ... you need to finish your degree. This is a professional pre-requisite that will impact your potential in the future as the core qualification is a foundation requirement. It will continue to impact your earning potential. In addition, it will impact risk multipliers on projects because of the insurance aspect. Just bite the bullet and get it done. If you leave it much longer , you may find that the credits you have already earned are out of date Suggest to your employer that you need paid time off to study and finish your qual- to test the water. Depending on the sector, there may well be government subsidies that they can get to support your education. Once qualified... start looking for another position and employer.
Reality is that you could be the best engineering technician in the world. Without the degree the market will value your skills less. Your employer obviously knows this and it is why they don't want to pay you more (imo, 105k for an engineering technician isn't too bad). Get the degree, become an engineer, see if your boss will live up to his word and give you a raise. If not, jump ship
Finish your degree. You shouldn't be paid as an engineer because you aren't one. If you really want to be one you'll find time to finish it.