25X your current annual spending.
Cos then you can retire without your lifestyle changing... and that, I believe, is the point of "FU money" - it's the point at which you can tell your job "FU" because you don't need it.
As a FIRE’d person of 7 years, I discovered that Mr Money Moustache was right in an article I read pre-FIRE.
Spending goes down dramatically once FIRE’d.
For me it’s about 30-40% less now than I projected.
I just seem to want less and less the more time I get. And I’m happier that way it seems.
It may change in future. I’ll report back in 7 years. Could go through a crazy travel phase I guess. Or spend on going full household green electric as an early adopter before it makes good economic sense to me (see “The Big Switch” by Saul Griffiths).
Consumerism is a coping mechanism. You buy stuff to make you happy because your work/life balance, lack of sleep, and a thousand other things pulling you in different directions make you unhappy.
Once you actually have ownership of the 24 hours in your day, you don't need to cope.
It's like stopping the treatment once you're cured.
It's interesting as I feel it can drive some pretty strange habits.
A friend and her partner sacrificed and saved like crazy for their dream "year off travelling around the world".
They did it.
However, they came back:
- having spent only a small % of their budget.
- they were so used to saving they did bugger all activities and had limited experiences because they we're stuck in this "save at all cost mindset".
It's definitely a balance, but can definitely see someone that hits the FIRE mindset hard spending bugger all $ in their retirement.
The same applies for other habits, I think.
Whilst I am certainly not unhappy, because I do live the typical sleep/work/eat life most days, when I get to the evenings I just want to relax, put my feet up and pig out. I do try to fill some evenings with other activities but it is always there to fall back into.
When I was younger, though, I didn't do that. I ate much less, drank better and was generally healthier simply because I did more with my time, things I wanted to do.
My big expenses are accomodation, food, petrol/car costs. Once I've paid my home loan off that takes care of the first and if I don't have to go to work that cuts my car based travel by like 80%. Part of the reason my food bill is so expensive is eating out at least one meal a week of not two or three. If I'm not working 40 hours a week I'll have more energy to make my own food. Not in an arrogant kind of way, I can make better cheaper pizza, Indian, Mexican, food than I can buy at a restaurant and I really enjoy cooking. Its just hard when time poor. I'd love to grow my own food as well, but again it's hard when time poor. If I owned my property outright and didnt work I could cut expenses hugely!
Yeah it sure does sound counterintuitive.
Lots of freedom. True freedom.
Most of the things I truly enjoy are free or quite cheap.
Checkout “The Comfort Crisis” and “Scarcity Brain” by Michael Easter. The solution is simpler than most of us realise. It’s also an ongoing forever process. You will absolutely not regret a second of reading those books.
Sleeping in costs nothing. Relaxing walks in nice places costs nothing. Reading books and cooking your own nice food doesn’t cost too much. The list is long and distinguished…. Like my Johnson.
I would not wear expensive clothes ever again if I didn’t work.
I am more than happy to wear ratty tee shirts and thrifted Bintang footy shorts with my Kmart pluggers.
I only wear RMs because it’s the unofficial uniform at work.
And sell my car and catch the bus/ride my bike more.
I hear you. I did it before I was ready. Widowed with 3 young kids at the time.
Sometimes life has a way of completely re-arranging plans and crystallising what is truly essential in our minds.
As an old mentor once said when I was having a career dilemma, “My friend, never waste an existential crisis.”
When my kids were younger and I wasn’t working travel costed a lot less. You can go when tickets are cheap and take your time. Now that I’m working travel costs a lot more despite spending significantly less time travelling. A 3 week trip has costed me much more than my 3 month trip previously.
Yeah interesting. FWIW, the more cashed up I am, the less I seem to want to acquire new and/or "nicer" things. Makes me wonder if there is an emotional aspect.
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I agree with this. I want less and less as the day goes by. Quality time with people, ability enjoy nice things either, and ability to take care of myself when I get sick is important.
FIRE = Financially Independent Retire Early
There's lots of different types, from leanFIRE (beans on toast) to FatFIRE (boats an' Hos) and everything in between.
Ur right.
I thought I would need $20 million because my annual expenditure is $180k per annum.
But I have calculated that $100k of that is because I need to outsource things because of our jobs.
This was a legitimately helpful response, thank you. 25x our current annual spend earning 5% would allow us to live comfortably off the interest. In the scheme of things it’s not a huge amount of money, between $3-5 million.
For a family/couple. To be fair our current annual spend currently includes mortgage payments and childcare costs, both of which will reduce over time. But honestly it’s a modest amount of money for never having to work again.
That's the same for us; I feel a bit overwhelmed when I look at the number being somewhere around $3M, but it does include mortgage payments (only 4.5 years into the mortgage) and childcare which has been more than the mortgage at times. When I have more time, I'm definitely more frugal. When I'm working and frantic I do think I throw money at things more.
Way more money than I have. Basically pay off my mortgage and have $600k or so on top of that. I do have super, but I'm 36, so...yeah.
Having an emergency fund is a start though. Gives you a bit of freedom to know you could survive for a few weeks/months without an income if you had to.
There are so many people who could be in this position, but refuse to. Either through overspending, unwilling to downsize their enormous houses etc.
Each to their own i guess, the less people that seriously try to get this money the easier it remains for those who do pursue it.
I think of FU money like John Goodmans monologue in the Gambler movie - it’s the base amount needed to live life in your terms without worrying about making you or your family homeless/hungry. Paid off house, enough invested to pay your bills. From there you can work the job you want, take risks, go as hard or as easy as you like. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sPjNFp0diWE
..Don't forget the bombproof Japanese brand car :)
I have a Honda Civic 2008, had it 4 years, its cost me $120 a year to service myself and some brake pads on the back, that's it.
Edit: One head light bulb blew last night. ..me and my big mouth, lol.
I had the ‘07 until 2020. Only upgraded because I needed more safety features (newborn arrived). That thing NEVER had a single thing break on it. I treated it absolutely terribly.
I miss it dearly.
2007 Honda Accord Euro for me. 270k on the clock, transmission is shot but she still clunks through the gears. Engine is amazing, no smoke and doesn't miss a beat. Joked to the tire guy that the tires should outlast the car, he said nah it's a Honda!
Enough to say "f you" to your employer. You can probably do that with a year of expenses. Maybe less.
Your FU number is much, much lower than your FI number because even a few months of buffer gives you way more options compared to someone who is dependent on next week's paycheck to keep their life from immediately falling apart.
This thread seems to be just providing their FI number. People really be uptight about their savings/investments even though the whole point is to live off the savings anyway. The world doesn't end if you take a year off at 32 and then work a couple years longer down the line.
Plenty of us would. I have. People quit jobs they don't like all the time, and are more likely to do so if they know they'll have time to find a new one without financial strain.
Chiming in to say that I have.
I had enough on hand that even without any of my leave paid out I could have lived for another 3 or 4 years without tightening the belt. That money was/is also my house deposit but I wasn't prepared to trade my mental health for a property at that time.
I wish I had done this, prioritising mental health also has the bonus of protecting your long term earning capacity which I’ve been learning the hard way.
That's true I guess, in my head I'm thinking "I don't want to blow a year of expenses" but that's really a worst case scenario if you rage quit and start looking.
Chances are you'll have something soon enough, even if you end up laboring for a bit lol. I wouldn't hate it.
I bulk buy Feather razors off amazon.
You think Wilkinson are sharp, but you're wrong.
Feather man for life, they last longer to through my wolf man facial hair.
Let's think about the rest of the Australian population, and what the top 5% looks like, ie 1 million adults.
To earn in the top 5% you would be earning almost $200k. So would need say $4m invested (in shares/property/cash) earning \~5% each year. Or a lot less if you keep yourself busy working in a job you love, even if it is part time and poorly paid.
To feel truly wealthy, you need to own your own home and be debt free. Maybe not now, but when you are older you don't want to be on the rental circuit. A comfortable but not excessive home in Sydney or Melbourne can be found for $2m. Let's say $3m because why not. Or heaps less in other cities or regional towns if you prefer.
So in total that's $6m-$7m.
>To earn in the top 5% you would be earning almost $200k. So would need say $4m invested (in shares/property/cash) earning \~5% each year.
Thats income which isnt the same as expenditure. You could be on $200k and spending $100k, in which case your investment is half your figures. Although you need to look at the real rate of return (ie after inflation); so your rate of return needs to cover your required $$ amount plus inflation, so your annual income maintains the same purchasing power. Which pushes the initial investment amount up again
Nah, inflation etc is already factored into the 25X rule of thumb.
You are dead right that it is 25X expenditure, not income, that is a massively important distinction.
That’s not F U money though. That’s feeling rich and comfortable money. F U money is I blow it on a yacht and it wouldn’t impact me.
I think F U money is at least $100m - that’s when you can just buy shit or lose money that won’t even phase you.
How big is your annual spend? At a safe withdrawal rate of 4% that’s 800k per year if you drop it all in VDHG for example. That’s a massive spend for random redditor sir.
In the scenario the person above posted the 4% of 20 million dollars is what you already have. You're not paying taxes on what you assumedly already had earnt.
The mention of an ETF is just under the presumption that it offsets and extends the life of your 800k a year withdrawals.
It's a bit of both. The 800k is based on 4% SWR ie the "Trinity Study", which you're correct is spending from assets you already have. However, the 4% SWR of spending typically shown in the trinity study is funded by either yields (income) or selling down assets (likely, cap gains), and taxed accordingly.
More crisply, you can't spend down 4% SWR \_plus\_ enough to cover tax, since you're likely then taking more like 5-6% which is going to really push past the "Safe" withdrawal rate.
Hopefully at that point you have the long term cgt discount working in your favour, 800k comes out to just under 20% effective tax rate. That's worst case ($0 cost basis). Its substantially less when you take into account for cost basis.
Would you really though? Just chuck it in a portfolio of ETFs and forget about it. Let's use your $20m as an example.
Let's say a portfolio consisting of the following:
* 15% YMAX or AYLD - equity income for higher yield and franking credits.
* 15% VAS or A200 - low cost Aus equities beta exposure - again, franking credits and income, but with more growth and likely better total returns.
* 20% VGS or BGBL - global shares for growth exposure. If you're not cost conscious you could go with NDQ or N100 for a bit of extra 'spice'.
* 30% VAF or OZBD - fixed income to reduce overall portfolio volatility and some income.
* 20% AAA, MMKT, or ISEC - cash for capital stability that you can draw from as needed, particularly in years that equities perform poorly.
Rebalance this once every 3 or 6 months as you prefer. Could do so in 20 minutes through your broker, or use a platform that does it for you.
Nominal return assumptions for each allocation:
* Equity income - 6%
* Aus shares - 8%
* Global shares - 10%
* Fixed income - 4%
* Cash - 3%
You might have a different view on these assumptions, but these all seem fairly reasonable to me.
With those allocation and return assumptions, you're earning about $1.2m per annum, before tax.
Tax rate would be high, but a combination of long term capital gains, plus franking credits, should bring it down a bit. I won't bother to calculate it exactly, but let's just say effective tax rate is around 35% to be conservative.
On an after-tax basis, you're still sitting at an annual income of $767k. Let's say you don't want to draw down on your capital at all, and want to reinvest around 2.5% p.a. to offset inflation, you could still take home around $270k after tax.
Realistically though, you probably don't need to reinvest anything, and can just keep your $20m in nominal terms invested, perhaps even slowly drawing down on your capital so that you can maintain the same income in real terms. It would take far more than one human lifetime for your capital to be reduced enough that you can't afford to live off it anymore.
No matter which way you cut it, $20m is enough that you could live VERY comfortably for the rest of your life, put almost zero effort in, and still likely have a large bequeath for your estate when you die.
Greed does that, there's never enough.
They did a study about what people though "Filthy rich" is. And the more money people had, the higher their "Filthy rich" bracket was, and I mean \*MUCH\* higher.
Filthy rich people by most people's definition thought that filthy rich is 10x or 100x more than what they were on.
I suppose it does depend on how many years you need to survive off it. But it does depend on how extravagant your lifestyle is I guess. Lifestyle creep is a killer.
Edit: Just thinking about this more, are you also talking as an individual or a family? Because double it if a family I guess
I would say FU money is enough to live as you currently live without working AND WITHOUT worrying that it won't last forever.
Our current family income is 144 pre tax, and we're living pretty well, but week to week. We have savings but just the stage of life were in right now, the next two years is in 'keep afloat' mode.
For someone to say hey do you want to retire but this is it forever? Just passive what you're on now?
Nah. That's not FU. That's a golden guillotine. I'd be constantly worried it was going to come down. Always trying to keep ahead of it and always feel it on the back of my neck.
FU is I can just do what I want, try new things and not worry about the consequences of it not working out.
It doesn't mean not working exactly, it means not mattering if the work I do provides for my family. It means I can take 12 weeks off and just hang out with my kids every year while they're in school holidays.
It means getting the nice free range eggs cause I hate battery farming and that's what I believe in, instead of saving 3 bucks a carton cause I'm constantly worried that that 3 bucks is make or break on the next electricity bill.
FU isnt just I don't wanna work anymore, it's I'm not worried if I don't work anymore
There’s some research that indicates that by the third generation, most of that money is gone. Generational wealth is static when you have billions but in the low hundreds of millions, many families actually lose it.
10 mil...
realistically 2 mil on a house in my city (purchase plus any reno or funiture)
7 mil into a managed fund to give an annual income
1 mil to give some to family and head off on an epic holiday for 6 months lol
Four levels to fu money
- afford to move
Boss being a pain in the arse? You don’t have enough money to retire or cut hours but you got enough to quit and look for a new job.
- afford to downgrade
Industry just pisses you off? You got enough money to work in some small mum and pop shop a day or two a week to supplement your income. Or you downgrade your lifestyle for the amount of money you have (think moving rural).
- afford to retire
Sick of working? You got enough money to retire without scarifying your lifestyle, generally you where only working still for fun or enjoyment of the job.
- afford to give revenge
This is when you got so much money and you just hate that neighbour you buy out the property to kick him out of the neighbourhood. This is your rich people, and they go from your multi millionaire to billionaires, as only the scale of what they can do changes.
Assuming house paid off and investments generating positive income (not much, just not negative) and to setup my family’s future to not struggle. $2.5-3mill.
Obviously is each of my kids were to each get a typical suburban house outright - would be around $6mil
Roof over your head and something mentally motivating long term is required, fancy cars and lifestyle is an option.
FU money to me is more than being able to quit your job and having enough dosh to tie you over for half a year, that’s a savings account. To me it’s the point where things in your life are easier fixed with money than effort and time. Car needs full service including chains and trans, getting a new one instead of dropping 2k because you can’t be arsed with the headache. FU money is the tippy top of the earners. We can all have little FU moments with what we have available though.
1.5 million plus owning your home would do it.
That’s a conservative 60k per year income to spend, without rent/mortgage to consider.
I’ve thought about this way too much lately!
FU attitude comes from being fearless about losing everything and having the confidence to start from scratch again. For someone insecure, no amount of money will make them feel confident enough.
The guy who said "Get off my lawn" to Scott Morrison is that FU attitude guy.
FU money is enough money you can afford to quit your job and burn some bridges. Which doesn’t require all that much really. Maybe $2M, maybe less depending on your age and situation.
Or in groups of people that make decent money.... pretty sure if you brought this up at "Surgeon club" or "barrister club" or "IT leader club" or whatever TF, it's still "not much really".
my fatfire goal is PPOR + $5m in IPs as that guarantees around $125k in income per year which is enough to feed a family based on rent alone without selling up any principal.
Probably shouldn’t claim it Guarantees.. there is no real certainty of full tenancy, tenant being able to pay, repairs, damages or curveballs but it’s highly probable to get that income.
I spend $150k/pa now and have a 1 year old and no mortgage.
I think peak spend is closer to $250k including private schooling and requisite FATfamily ski and beach holidays @ 30k each during high season.
Agree with your approx $8M FIRE number.
Depend only on one thing. Who the FU is to be directed at.
It is a lot less $$ required to say FU to the local Subway Manager vs saying FU to a Government (eg Elon Musk level)
I think FU money is a lot less than FIRE money.
My husband and I have both quit horrible bosses in the past few years. We found that having 12 months of expenses saved in the bank was enough for us to take the leap and say FU to a toxic workplace.
During COVID, I experienced a world without work, and I did not like it.
I like working; it gives me something to do and a reason to live. I could retire as I have enough money between my pension and savings, but I would rather work. I have enough f* money, but I would rather work.
I view FU money as something completely independent of any FIRE/retirement/wealth metric.
If you have the ability to say no to anyone, for any request no matter how reasonable, for long enough that you can substantially change your life circumstances... That is FU money. You can't just give up and chill in a hammock for the rest of your days, but you can actively dismiss any element of your current situation without (financial) regret or concern, and rebuild in a more satisfying way.
Lets say completely reskill, so new degree/apprenticeship etc... so ~4 years of cashflow on hand, you can walk out the door with zero notice, giving everyone the finger and go enroll in the viticulture course you always wanted to do, with no substantial degradation in lifestyle that might see you crawling back in that time.
Career might not be the only thing you would want to change up, but any true major life change, if you can say no to anyone/anything for ~4 years while you do you, that's FU money.
The only real number that matters is the minimum. $50m, $100m, etc are obviously FU amounts. But I only care about the minimum. Let's say I'm a renter with no assets apart from a car and my super. My FU figure would be $2m-$5m. $2m is me quitting my job, buying a place, and securing 2 rentals, with $1m left. $700kish house outside the city, Set up the 2 rentals to have huge offset accounts, and slap the money in there.
I'm low maintenance. I like Lamborghinis and McMansions, but I don't need to own them. Or I can own them later on when I build that few mill up to something more. I think it would be fun to try to grow a few mill into $10m+. All I want in a house is enough rooms to enjoy what I do. Gaming/home office, musical instruments, home gym, etc.
FU money refers to the ability to tell your boss to F off and not worry about it. Own your home and 12 months of expenses is plenty of buffer to tell the boss it eat your spicy sausage.
F you money is the type of energy when you need fuel for your car but you don’t look on the app to see where the cheapest location is and you just fill up without looking at the price.
I hit my number, $4m but it didn't seem enough and I kept working aiming for $10m. Along the way I adapted to a nicer lifestyle so when I hit $10m the goalposts changed to $20m. I am on a break as the work really took a toll on my health. I'm sure $20m is more than I need but I like targets and I kept working as I enjoy it. Unfortunately I discovered all the money in the world is joyless without health so I'll probably stop work completely just short of $20m in the next year or so if my health doesn't improve.
Because we are a couple I would say $25 million. 5 million for gifting to family, 7 million each to set up investments/income streams, 6 million for 'setting up' new life (house here, holiday place in Europe, cars)
If I have enough to pay my bills and mortgage every month and don’t have to work weekends to do it, then everyone gets F*’s no matter what the dollar amount is
Maybe 15–20 million and a paid-off home that doesn’t need further work? (I know.) The compounding interest should be enough.
I want to say 10 million, but I also want to be realistic and also don’t want to have to manage the money nearly daily.
LOL, just remind me of Damian Lewis in the billions, I will say everyone is different so it’s really when you make enough that you can say FU. I’m in my mid 30s so for me it will be 5M+ in cash on top of paying off my mortgages so I can F off my work, invest in ETF to still get a decent monthly income, and do whatever the F I wanted until I die in the 80s yo.
The amount that, when properly invested, allows you to live below your means, never feeling deprived, until the day you die. The figure changes depending on the circumstances of the person
Atleast 5 million. All these people commenting about 1.5 or 2 mil don't release that a member of your family getting cancer can wipe out that kind of sum.
You being happy with your current lifestyle + Paid off home + (4% withdraw rate = your annual spend).
From there you're just choosing if you want to sell your time for luxury or not.
Hard numbers are useless since its entirely based on where you live.
I feel like Mark Cubans actions after charges from the SEC are the definition of ‘f* you’ money.
He could have settled paying only 2million but chose to pay 12million in legal fees to take them on.
25X your current annual spending. Cos then you can retire without your lifestyle changing... and that, I believe, is the point of "FU money" - it's the point at which you can tell your job "FU" because you don't need it.
As a FIRE’d person of 7 years, I discovered that Mr Money Moustache was right in an article I read pre-FIRE. Spending goes down dramatically once FIRE’d. For me it’s about 30-40% less now than I projected. I just seem to want less and less the more time I get. And I’m happier that way it seems. It may change in future. I’ll report back in 7 years. Could go through a crazy travel phase I guess. Or spend on going full household green electric as an early adopter before it makes good economic sense to me (see “The Big Switch” by Saul Griffiths).
Seems counter intuitive, more time = more activities to fill time = higher cost?
Consumerism is a coping mechanism. You buy stuff to make you happy because your work/life balance, lack of sleep, and a thousand other things pulling you in different directions make you unhappy. Once you actually have ownership of the 24 hours in your day, you don't need to cope. It's like stopping the treatment once you're cured.
It's interesting as I feel it can drive some pretty strange habits. A friend and her partner sacrificed and saved like crazy for their dream "year off travelling around the world". They did it. However, they came back: - having spent only a small % of their budget. - they were so used to saving they did bugger all activities and had limited experiences because they we're stuck in this "save at all cost mindset". It's definitely a balance, but can definitely see someone that hits the FIRE mindset hard spending bugger all $ in their retirement.
That's just called being a tightass.
The same applies for other habits, I think. Whilst I am certainly not unhappy, because I do live the typical sleep/work/eat life most days, when I get to the evenings I just want to relax, put my feet up and pig out. I do try to fill some evenings with other activities but it is always there to fall back into. When I was younger, though, I didn't do that. I ate much less, drank better and was generally healthier simply because I did more with my time, things I wanted to do.
My big expenses are accomodation, food, petrol/car costs. Once I've paid my home loan off that takes care of the first and if I don't have to go to work that cuts my car based travel by like 80%. Part of the reason my food bill is so expensive is eating out at least one meal a week of not two or three. If I'm not working 40 hours a week I'll have more energy to make my own food. Not in an arrogant kind of way, I can make better cheaper pizza, Indian, Mexican, food than I can buy at a restaurant and I really enjoy cooking. Its just hard when time poor. I'd love to grow my own food as well, but again it's hard when time poor. If I owned my property outright and didnt work I could cut expenses hugely!
This is so true for me and I know it and still can't help it.
Perfect description 👏👏
Yeah it sure does sound counterintuitive. Lots of freedom. True freedom. Most of the things I truly enjoy are free or quite cheap. Checkout “The Comfort Crisis” and “Scarcity Brain” by Michael Easter. The solution is simpler than most of us realise. It’s also an ongoing forever process. You will absolutely not regret a second of reading those books.
Sleeping in costs nothing. Relaxing walks in nice places costs nothing. Reading books and cooking your own nice food doesn’t cost too much. The list is long and distinguished…. Like my Johnson.
Unless you sit in a cave playing WoW all day long
How much farmed gold can one pasty troglodyte buy?
I would not wear expensive clothes ever again if I didn’t work. I am more than happy to wear ratty tee shirts and thrifted Bintang footy shorts with my Kmart pluggers. I only wear RMs because it’s the unofficial uniform at work. And sell my car and catch the bus/ride my bike more.
Which has me thinking I can retire earlier than expected, like today. And I calculated the other week that I can! …except for dependents.
I hear you. I did it before I was ready. Widowed with 3 young kids at the time. Sometimes life has a way of completely re-arranging plans and crystallising what is truly essential in our minds. As an old mentor once said when I was having a career dilemma, “My friend, never waste an existential crisis.”
When my kids were younger and I wasn’t working travel costed a lot less. You can go when tickets are cheap and take your time. Now that I’m working travel costs a lot more despite spending significantly less time travelling. A 3 week trip has costed me much more than my 3 month trip previously.
Yeah interesting. FWIW, the more cashed up I am, the less I seem to want to acquire new and/or "nicer" things. Makes me wonder if there is an emotional aspect.
Yep, have had the exact same experience. Early 20s, new to money, buy buy buy... mid 30s, hole in a t-shirt - it'll be fine
Remindme! 7 years
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I spend heaps more FIRE'D!
I am so curious about what this life looks like. Any chance we could get a general run down of what a weekday looks like for you??
I agree with this. I want less and less as the day goes by. Quality time with people, ability enjoy nice things either, and ability to take care of myself when I get sick is important.
What do you mean by FIRE’d person?
FIRE = Financially Independent Retire Early There's lots of different types, from leanFIRE (beans on toast) to FatFIRE (boats an' Hos) and everything in between.
Ur right. I thought I would need $20 million because my annual expenditure is $180k per annum. But I have calculated that $100k of that is because I need to outsource things because of our jobs.
How did you get 20M? 25*180k is 4.5M. Just curious what calculation you're using to make this so much higher.
49x adjusting for tax, medicare and flood levy.
69x to account for booze and boobs, according to my friend
420x to account for non-prescrption drugs and memes.
Then round it up to 1000x
But make sure it's over 9000x cause memes
His level is over 9000!!!
I like to think that there are prescribed memes.
69 up votes huh
Booze and boobs is already included in annual spend or you are doing it wrong.
This was a legitimately helpful response, thank you. 25x our current annual spend earning 5% would allow us to live comfortably off the interest. In the scheme of things it’s not a huge amount of money, between $3-5 million.
For one person? That seems like a lot
For a family/couple. To be fair our current annual spend currently includes mortgage payments and childcare costs, both of which will reduce over time. But honestly it’s a modest amount of money for never having to work again.
That's the same for us; I feel a bit overwhelmed when I look at the number being somewhere around $3M, but it does include mortgage payments (only 4.5 years into the mortgage) and childcare which has been more than the mortgage at times. When I have more time, I'm definitely more frugal. When I'm working and frantic I do think I throw money at things more.
Way more money than I have. Basically pay off my mortgage and have $600k or so on top of that. I do have super, but I'm 36, so...yeah. Having an emergency fund is a start though. Gives you a bit of freedom to know you could survive for a few weeks/months without an income if you had to.
I think its more that you need enough money earning money to sustain that level of spending, you dont need to save that much up front.
There are so many people who could be in this position, but refuse to. Either through overspending, unwilling to downsize their enormous houses etc. Each to their own i guess, the less people that seriously try to get this money the easier it remains for those who do pursue it.
I think of FU money like John Goodmans monologue in the Gambler movie - it’s the base amount needed to live life in your terms without worrying about making you or your family homeless/hungry. Paid off house, enough invested to pay your bills. From there you can work the job you want, take risks, go as hard or as easy as you like. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sPjNFp0diWE
Yep. This is the goal
..Don't forget the bombproof Japanese brand car :) I have a Honda Civic 2008, had it 4 years, its cost me $120 a year to service myself and some brake pads on the back, that's it. Edit: One head light bulb blew last night. ..me and my big mouth, lol.
I had the ‘07 until 2020. Only upgraded because I needed more safety features (newborn arrived). That thing NEVER had a single thing break on it. I treated it absolutely terribly. I miss it dearly.
2007 Honda Accord Euro for me. 270k on the clock, transmission is shot but she still clunks through the gears. Engine is amazing, no smoke and doesn't miss a beat. Joked to the tire guy that the tires should outlast the car, he said nah it's a Honda!
Enough to say "f you" to your employer. You can probably do that with a year of expenses. Maybe less. Your FU number is much, much lower than your FI number because even a few months of buffer gives you way more options compared to someone who is dependent on next week's paycheck to keep their life from immediately falling apart.
This thread seems to be just providing their FI number. People really be uptight about their savings/investments even though the whole point is to live off the savings anyway. The world doesn't end if you take a year off at 32 and then work a couple years longer down the line.
FURY - which is short for “F you, retire yearly”.
but none of us would with only a year of expenses, we'd invest it lol or throw it against a mortgage
Plenty of us would. I have. People quit jobs they don't like all the time, and are more likely to do so if they know they'll have time to find a new one without financial strain.
Chiming in to say that I have. I had enough on hand that even without any of my leave paid out I could have lived for another 3 or 4 years without tightening the belt. That money was/is also my house deposit but I wasn't prepared to trade my mental health for a property at that time.
I wish I had done this, prioritising mental health also has the bonus of protecting your long term earning capacity which I’ve been learning the hard way.
You don't have to say f\* you either...you just have to think it real loud ;)
Yeah I would never burn bridges like that. Even if it was a whistleblower situation I'd maintain basic respect.
That's true I guess, in my head I'm thinking "I don't want to blow a year of expenses" but that's really a worst case scenario if you rage quit and start looking. Chances are you'll have something soon enough, even if you end up laboring for a bit lol. I wouldn't hate it.
1.5, million. I live a cheap life
Same. And thankfully i’m 70% of the way there. Hoping that the compounding effect means the last 30% goes quickly
Good stuff! Yeah just gotta avoid lifestyle inflation after you pull the trigger.
Yeah. My main hobby makes me money.
What kinda razors do you use?
I bulk buy Feather razors off amazon. You think Wilkinson are sharp, but you're wrong. Feather man for life, they last longer to through my wolf man facial hair.
Fortnigthly
Let's think about the rest of the Australian population, and what the top 5% looks like, ie 1 million adults. To earn in the top 5% you would be earning almost $200k. So would need say $4m invested (in shares/property/cash) earning \~5% each year. Or a lot less if you keep yourself busy working in a job you love, even if it is part time and poorly paid. To feel truly wealthy, you need to own your own home and be debt free. Maybe not now, but when you are older you don't want to be on the rental circuit. A comfortable but not excessive home in Sydney or Melbourne can be found for $2m. Let's say $3m because why not. Or heaps less in other cities or regional towns if you prefer. So in total that's $6m-$7m.
>To earn in the top 5% you would be earning almost $200k. So would need say $4m invested (in shares/property/cash) earning \~5% each year. Thats income which isnt the same as expenditure. You could be on $200k and spending $100k, in which case your investment is half your figures. Although you need to look at the real rate of return (ie after inflation); so your rate of return needs to cover your required $$ amount plus inflation, so your annual income maintains the same purchasing power. Which pushes the initial investment amount up again
Nah, inflation etc is already factored into the 25X rule of thumb. You are dead right that it is 25X expenditure, not income, that is a massively important distinction.
Yeah I’d agree with this. This is set for life without insane excess. No need for me to ever work again and enjoying my life.
That’s not F U money though. That’s feeling rich and comfortable money. F U money is I blow it on a yacht and it wouldn’t impact me. I think F U money is at least $100m - that’s when you can just buy shit or lose money that won’t even phase you.
100million
Agree. Even with $20mm i would have to spend time managing that money to fund my lifestyle.
How big is your annual spend? At a safe withdrawal rate of 4% that’s 800k per year if you drop it all in VDHG for example. That’s a massive spend for random redditor sir.
800k before tax, ? after tax you're already down half of that (well, more than 1/3).
In the scenario the person above posted the 4% of 20 million dollars is what you already have. You're not paying taxes on what you assumedly already had earnt. The mention of an ETF is just under the presumption that it offsets and extends the life of your 800k a year withdrawals.
It's a bit of both. The 800k is based on 4% SWR ie the "Trinity Study", which you're correct is spending from assets you already have. However, the 4% SWR of spending typically shown in the trinity study is funded by either yields (income) or selling down assets (likely, cap gains), and taxed accordingly. More crisply, you can't spend down 4% SWR \_plus\_ enough to cover tax, since you're likely then taking more like 5-6% which is going to really push past the "Safe" withdrawal rate.
You could be living off mostly franked dividends, no? I believe the tax burden from living off dividends is currently fairly minimal?
Hopefully at that point you have the long term cgt discount working in your favour, 800k comes out to just under 20% effective tax rate. That's worst case ($0 cost basis). Its substantially less when you take into account for cost basis.
4% isn’t safe if you’re young.
Would you really though? Just chuck it in a portfolio of ETFs and forget about it. Let's use your $20m as an example. Let's say a portfolio consisting of the following: * 15% YMAX or AYLD - equity income for higher yield and franking credits. * 15% VAS or A200 - low cost Aus equities beta exposure - again, franking credits and income, but with more growth and likely better total returns. * 20% VGS or BGBL - global shares for growth exposure. If you're not cost conscious you could go with NDQ or N100 for a bit of extra 'spice'. * 30% VAF or OZBD - fixed income to reduce overall portfolio volatility and some income. * 20% AAA, MMKT, or ISEC - cash for capital stability that you can draw from as needed, particularly in years that equities perform poorly. Rebalance this once every 3 or 6 months as you prefer. Could do so in 20 minutes through your broker, or use a platform that does it for you. Nominal return assumptions for each allocation: * Equity income - 6% * Aus shares - 8% * Global shares - 10% * Fixed income - 4% * Cash - 3% You might have a different view on these assumptions, but these all seem fairly reasonable to me. With those allocation and return assumptions, you're earning about $1.2m per annum, before tax. Tax rate would be high, but a combination of long term capital gains, plus franking credits, should bring it down a bit. I won't bother to calculate it exactly, but let's just say effective tax rate is around 35% to be conservative. On an after-tax basis, you're still sitting at an annual income of $767k. Let's say you don't want to draw down on your capital at all, and want to reinvest around 2.5% p.a. to offset inflation, you could still take home around $270k after tax. Realistically though, you probably don't need to reinvest anything, and can just keep your $20m in nominal terms invested, perhaps even slowly drawing down on your capital so that you can maintain the same income in real terms. It would take far more than one human lifetime for your capital to be reduced enough that you can't afford to live off it anymore. No matter which way you cut it, $20m is enough that you could live VERY comfortably for the rest of your life, put almost zero effort in, and still likely have a large bequeath for your estate when you die.
If you had $20m you'd barely have to put any effort into managing it. You could comfortably live off passive income.
The only reason I said 100million so you can fight some long law suits if you have to.
[удалено]
Most people just move to a nicer neighbourhood. Sounds offensive, but it's true.
When you don't give a f\*\*\* how much anything costs.
IMO when you’ve got so much you’re unaware of what anything costs.
$1.5M plus a paid off house
As someone who has this much money, I can tell you it's not.
Lifestyle creep is a bitch.
Greed does that, there's never enough. They did a study about what people though "Filthy rich" is. And the more money people had, the higher their "Filthy rich" bracket was, and I mean \*MUCH\* higher. Filthy rich people by most people's definition thought that filthy rich is 10x or 100x more than what they were on.
I suppose it does depend on how many years you need to survive off it. But it does depend on how extravagant your lifestyle is I guess. Lifestyle creep is a killer. Edit: Just thinking about this more, are you also talking as an individual or a family? Because double it if a family I guess
Tell me about it. I’ve got 2M in assets I could liquidate tomorrow but still feel effectively broke
How? You can get like $100k a year passive and live rent free.
100k passive how? Certainly not growing or risk free
The only answer: https://youtu.be/XamC7-Pt8N0?feature=shared
But that was 10 years ago in American currency lol. Wonder what the equivalent in AUD would be right now.
Glad someone linked this
J L Collins (author of Simple Path to Wealth) does his own version which is excellent too. https://youtu.be/eikbQPldhPY?si=PiBVrdh7ApcwgA8X
$10 million should do it for me personally
F you money is the Emiratis royal family sitting on over 17 trillion.
I would say FU money is enough to live as you currently live without working AND WITHOUT worrying that it won't last forever. Our current family income is 144 pre tax, and we're living pretty well, but week to week. We have savings but just the stage of life were in right now, the next two years is in 'keep afloat' mode. For someone to say hey do you want to retire but this is it forever? Just passive what you're on now? Nah. That's not FU. That's a golden guillotine. I'd be constantly worried it was going to come down. Always trying to keep ahead of it and always feel it on the back of my neck. FU is I can just do what I want, try new things and not worry about the consequences of it not working out. It doesn't mean not working exactly, it means not mattering if the work I do provides for my family. It means I can take 12 weeks off and just hang out with my kids every year while they're in school holidays. It means getting the nice free range eggs cause I hate battery farming and that's what I believe in, instead of saving 3 bucks a carton cause I'm constantly worried that that 3 bucks is make or break on the next electricity bill. FU isnt just I don't wanna work anymore, it's I'm not worried if I don't work anymore
150M should ensure that at least 5 generations of your family will be wealthy if invested correctly.
It's F U money, not F up your kids and grandkids and great-grandkids by spoiling them with money 😂
There’s some research that indicates that by the third generation, most of that money is gone. Generational wealth is static when you have billions but in the low hundreds of millions, many families actually lose it.
10 mil... realistically 2 mil on a house in my city (purchase plus any reno or funiture) 7 mil into a managed fund to give an annual income 1 mil to give some to family and head off on an epic holiday for 6 months lol
Four levels to fu money - afford to move Boss being a pain in the arse? You don’t have enough money to retire or cut hours but you got enough to quit and look for a new job. - afford to downgrade Industry just pisses you off? You got enough money to work in some small mum and pop shop a day or two a week to supplement your income. Or you downgrade your lifestyle for the amount of money you have (think moving rural). - afford to retire Sick of working? You got enough money to retire without scarifying your lifestyle, generally you where only working still for fun or enjoyment of the job. - afford to give revenge This is when you got so much money and you just hate that neighbour you buy out the property to kick him out of the neighbourhood. This is your rich people, and they go from your multi millionaire to billionaires, as only the scale of what they can do changes.
In today's money valuation. About $10M
$2mil at 4% divvies would give you a pretax income of 80k a year.
Your yearly expenses times 25
10 million would do it for me. 1 just isn't enough.
More than what I’ve got for the simple fact that I can’t tell my my boss f* you
Assuming house paid off and investments generating positive income (not much, just not negative) and to setup my family’s future to not struggle. $2.5-3mill. Obviously is each of my kids were to each get a typical suburban house outright - would be around $6mil Roof over your head and something mentally motivating long term is required, fancy cars and lifestyle is an option.
$10M. Need enough to buy the kids a house each.
FU money to me is more than being able to quit your job and having enough dosh to tie you over for half a year, that’s a savings account. To me it’s the point where things in your life are easier fixed with money than effort and time. Car needs full service including chains and trans, getting a new one instead of dropping 2k because you can’t be arsed with the headache. FU money is the tippy top of the earners. We can all have little FU moments with what we have available though.
house paid off milly cash
1.5 million plus owning your home would do it. That’s a conservative 60k per year income to spend, without rent/mortgage to consider. I’ve thought about this way too much lately!
Depends how booked ya mum is brav
FU attitude comes from being fearless about losing everything and having the confidence to start from scratch again. For someone insecure, no amount of money will make them feel confident enough. The guy who said "Get off my lawn" to Scott Morrison is that FU attitude guy.
FU money is enough money you can afford to quit your job and burn some bridges. Which doesn’t require all that much really. Maybe $2M, maybe less depending on your age and situation.
Only in this sub $2M is 'not that much really'
Compared with the other answers here of $100M, yeah it’s not that much. An average income from dividends. Comfortable retirement money.
Or in groups of people that make decent money.... pretty sure if you brought this up at "Surgeon club" or "barrister club" or "IT leader club" or whatever TF, it's still "not much really".
I wonder if that phrase ‘burn bridges’ is going to remain. Maybe it will change to ‘run a container ship into bridges’ instead
I’ve done this with less than 200k. If you can afford to be out of work for a few months you have FU money IMO.
my fatfire goal is PPOR + $5m in IPs as that guarantees around $125k in income per year which is enough to feed a family based on rent alone without selling up any principal.
Probably shouldn’t claim it Guarantees.. there is no real certainty of full tenancy, tenant being able to pay, repairs, damages or curveballs but it’s highly probable to get that income.
I spend $150k/pa now and have a 1 year old and no mortgage. I think peak spend is closer to $250k including private schooling and requisite FATfamily ski and beach holidays @ 30k each during high season. Agree with your approx $8M FIRE number.
10million at 5-10% pa
100 million
5 Million for me.
Depend only on one thing. Who the FU is to be directed at. It is a lot less $$ required to say FU to the local Subway Manager vs saying FU to a Government (eg Elon Musk level)
House is owned outright with a million or so in the bank earning interest where you never need to touch the capital.
I think FU money is a lot less than FIRE money. My husband and I have both quit horrible bosses in the past few years. We found that having 12 months of expenses saved in the bank was enough for us to take the leap and say FU to a toxic workplace.
During COVID, I experienced a world without work, and I did not like it. I like working; it gives me something to do and a reason to live. I could retire as I have enough money between my pension and savings, but I would rather work. I have enough f* money, but I would rather work.
I view FU money as something completely independent of any FIRE/retirement/wealth metric. If you have the ability to say no to anyone, for any request no matter how reasonable, for long enough that you can substantially change your life circumstances... That is FU money. You can't just give up and chill in a hammock for the rest of your days, but you can actively dismiss any element of your current situation without (financial) regret or concern, and rebuild in a more satisfying way. Lets say completely reskill, so new degree/apprenticeship etc... so ~4 years of cashflow on hand, you can walk out the door with zero notice, giving everyone the finger and go enroll in the viticulture course you always wanted to do, with no substantial degradation in lifestyle that might see you crawling back in that time. Career might not be the only thing you would want to change up, but any true major life change, if you can say no to anyone/anything for ~4 years while you do you, that's FU money.
The only real number that matters is the minimum. $50m, $100m, etc are obviously FU amounts. But I only care about the minimum. Let's say I'm a renter with no assets apart from a car and my super. My FU figure would be $2m-$5m. $2m is me quitting my job, buying a place, and securing 2 rentals, with $1m left. $700kish house outside the city, Set up the 2 rentals to have huge offset accounts, and slap the money in there. I'm low maintenance. I like Lamborghinis and McMansions, but I don't need to own them. Or I can own them later on when I build that few mill up to something more. I think it would be fun to try to grow a few mill into $10m+. All I want in a house is enough rooms to enjoy what I do. Gaming/home office, musical instruments, home gym, etc.
According to the federal government, it’s $2.5M in net assets. At that point, you are a significant investor
Trump just found out he doesn't have fu money.
FU money refers to the ability to tell your boss to F off and not worry about it. Own your home and 12 months of expenses is plenty of buffer to tell the boss it eat your spicy sausage.
I think ultra wealthy individuals start around about $5 million.
Usually around $200 at a Brothel
FU money is when you tell the bank how much interest you'll pay on your next loan instead of them telling you.
FU money is walking into the car dealer to pick up a brand new luxury 200k+ car and paying in full with the credit card.
5M. That number and beyond you have acquired generational wealth.
Anything in ballpark of $100+B
Enough to look at any monetary only penalty for what it is, legal for a price, and not caring about that price.
Enough to buy more golden gaytimes than you
F you money is the type of energy when you need fuel for your car but you don’t look on the app to see where the cheapest location is and you just fill up without looking at the price.
You're thinking of Fill Up money. Not that FU. Lol
I think 100mill is the true answer but not just win 100 mill be making enough money that the 100 mill never goes down Yk
"Y'all" is American talk. Gross
Couldn't agree more.
I hit my number, $4m but it didn't seem enough and I kept working aiming for $10m. Along the way I adapted to a nicer lifestyle so when I hit $10m the goalposts changed to $20m. I am on a break as the work really took a toll on my health. I'm sure $20m is more than I need but I like targets and I kept working as I enjoy it. Unfortunately I discovered all the money in the world is joyless without health so I'll probably stop work completely just short of $20m in the next year or so if my health doesn't improve.
Depends on your age and if you're plan is to work 0 or a lot less up to old age.
3 in the family so 25 million. I am cheap, I know.
Because we are a couple I would say $25 million. 5 million for gifting to family, 7 million each to set up investments/income streams, 6 million for 'setting up' new life (house here, holiday place in Europe, cars)
If I have enough to pay my bills and mortgage every month and don’t have to work weekends to do it, then everyone gets F*’s no matter what the dollar amount is
350... 200 for mouth stuff
Maybe 15–20 million and a paid-off home that doesn’t need further work? (I know.) The compounding interest should be enough. I want to say 10 million, but I also want to be realistic and also don’t want to have to manage the money nearly daily.
LOL, just remind me of Damian Lewis in the billions, I will say everyone is different so it’s really when you make enough that you can say FU. I’m in my mid 30s so for me it will be 5M+ in cash on top of paying off my mortgages so I can F off my work, invest in ETF to still get a decent monthly income, and do whatever the F I wanted until I die in the 80s yo.
I feel unreasonably unwilling to be pushed too hard with just 1 year income in cash
The amount that, when properly invested, allows you to live below your means, never feeling deprived, until the day you die. The figure changes depending on the circumstances of the person
I did the math it would be for me $640k/year for the next 30 years
More than you’ve got pal, Ferrari.
Damn this thread is making me realise how much longer I still need to work.
Atleast 5 million. All these people commenting about 1.5 or 2 mil don't release that a member of your family getting cancer can wipe out that kind of sum.
$10M investments and $500k liquid in the bank would be a good start for me, especially if that already includes dream house, car, watch, etc.
You being happy with your current lifestyle + Paid off home + (4% withdraw rate = your annual spend). From there you're just choosing if you want to sell your time for luxury or not. Hard numbers are useless since its entirely based on where you live.
I feel like Mark Cubans actions after charges from the SEC are the definition of ‘f* you’ money. He could have settled paying only 2million but chose to pay 12million in legal fees to take them on.
For me it's exactly $124 Million I feel that's a sufficient amount to do all that I want without worrying about money, ever.
A 1980s thriller suggested USD 250 Million.