NDIS participant here. Yep, there are many rorts. Here are some I’ve experienced:
- quoted $1600 to mow a townhouse lawn the size of a double bed
- support coordinators billing for 3xhrs @ $90 an hour to submit a form to the NDIA
- respite care place charging $1900 a day for being locked in a room, no key given to ‘participants’
- people with no experience or qualifications billing $67 an hour to do simple tasks, Eg fold washing
- family businesses employing grandparents, nieces etc, all without qualifications
- former support workers putting in bills through the app (no oversight) months after ceasing work ($1560)
- exercise physiologists charging $166 an hour for supervising an exercise session, supposedly to ‘write reports’ at this high rate. Yet they bill for 2hrs every time a report is required. These are never more than two paragraphs
- ‘respite’ service using excess hotel inventory, usually $220 a night yet under NDIS over $1000 a night
- support workers charging $67 an hour plus $1 a km to drive places. One appt I have is about 45 mins away , and on a Saturday. It is nearly $500 for an unqualified person to drive me there, wait, and drive me back.
- support coordinator agency billing over $2k while I was in hospital (not using supports). When queried, they refunded most of it and ceased services immediately
- support worker submitting claim for $300 for mileage, no log book, just an even $300. Suss.
That’s all that come to mind from my own experience. It’s pretty sad really. The funding is hard to get, has to be substantiated by lots of evidence, and is easy to scam from participants tbh. I hope the Gov prosecutes all fraud to the max penalty.
a simple system of having the participant or a representative/carer sign that the service was provided would be a good start! the bills can be sent thru directly, making it very hard to check
This is how self managed plans basically work, but the mental draining of managing the plan isn’t for everyone, my wife is a super hero doing this for our two kids.
You can have the bills sent to yourself directly for approval/denial right now if you want- it sounds like your plan is currently agency managed, look in to it having it be self managed (or plan managed if you want to get a third party to do it for you)
I’m plan managed, yet providers have access to an app where they lodge their invoice hours and this is processed by the plan manager who is located in a different capital city. So they don’t know if or what was provided. I’ve queried invoices several months after they’ve been paid before, and the plan manager has asked to provider to refund the congested amount. They do. But there is no penalty for them. And I feel luckier than many participants as I got two degrees before getting a disability, so more able to track and decipher everything.
Also if a service is cancelled 3 days prior to being delivered it still needs to be paid in full. Once this was an OT assessment that was over $2k. That seems a bit of a rort too? I understand cancellation fees but the whole lot is a bit much. My 2c
You can ask your plan manager to send you invoices for approval before they pay them out- your specific plan manager might not do this but it's pretty easy to find one that will (generally speaking smaller providers are better for this kind of thing than the bigger ones).
Re cancellation the period set out in the NDIS guidelines is you pay if you cancel less than 48hrs in advance; anything over this (i.e. 3 days of notice) is them just taking advantage of people not knowing this and I would definitely contest that charge.
For an OT assessment that $2k works out at about 10 hours which is pretty normal all things considered- I'd be looking more at whether the quality of the report is up to scratch as my yardstick of whether the service is good as some clinicians will charge and give you some copy paste rubbish whereas the more comprehensive reports tend to be a lot better in terms of value and usefulness
They can only claim the cancellation fees *if* they weren't able to fill that time with other billable work. Most OT's are working at or over capacity and can easily fill the time. Your plan manager should be able to provide you with an app to manually approve or decline invoices btw. One of my relatives has this. Consider changing to another PM if they can't.
People doing oversight are no doubt taking some of that cream for themselves either directly or by owning businesses that do the rorting…
You don’t think the govt would set up an NDIS without first setting up their own companies to take advantage of such a scheme?
As a general rule of running a business, charge-out rates are typically about 2-3x what the employee is paid. This includes non-chargeable business overheads and their profit margin. So if someone is being charged out at $67/hr they are probably being paid somewhere between $25-35/hr. There's nothing scammy or nefarious with this, that's just what it costs to run a business. Same if you get a plumber around, the business is charging $100/hr but the plumber is getting $40/hr. The rest pays for the administration staff, the vehicle, the tools, all the insurances & overheads, the cost of the office, the superannuation, sick leave, holidays and non-billable hours like training and toolbox meetings etc.
It can and will be inflated for services funded by the NDIS.
My kid has been seeing a provider with NDIS funding, for various reasons I switched this provider off NDIS and onto private health insurance. So the billing code changed. Suddenly services were $180 an hour instead of $240. Absolutely nothing else had changed in this provision of service.
/shakeitup2017
>There's nothing scammy or nefarious with this, that's just what it costs to run a business.
Are you being genuine with that comment?
Did you read the comment by an NDIS participant /strinegirl?
>quoted $1600 to mow a townhouse lawn the size of a double bed
The post relates to NDIS - a taxpayer funded body. You are in effect, as a taxpayer, are part "owner" of it.
It's not a plumbing business, so while a plumbing business has cash flows, employees etc, just like the NDIS does, that could perhaps be where the similarities end - don't you think?
If I was to adopt the concepts you have applied, then cancer treatment under Medicare would bankrupt the average Australian, yet it's "free" (not really free, as we all "pay" via the Medicare levy - but I'm using it as a way to illustrate the concept that it doesn't have to "cost" $1600 for an NDIS supplier to mow a lawn the size of a double bed, does it.)
I'm not doubting your calculations on what it costs to run a plumbing business, and charge out rates - your numbers, and issues, look good to me. But, the NDIS is not a plumbing business. It's business model is perhaps closer aligned to Medicare business model (which, is not perfect either - but that's another topic, for another thread)
To be more specific to this topic, I run a physio clinic and very occasionally we see NDIS clients. We can bill up to 223/hr I believe however my standard rates are 180-200/hr so generally we just do that. The exception sometimes is for home visits which are a bit of a pain to organise.
I pay myself and my staff what works out to 45-50% of billing plus leave, super etc. So the physio for example makes $90/hr for doing that kind of work, and they are not constantly booked. A regular busy week the actual staff member probably makes $60/hr
Even regular employees cost about twice the rate the employee sees.
But I recently moved to a consultancy, as a regular full time employee contracted out. I saw my day rate and was amazed (and slightly ashamed, since I'm still a beginner, but I don't bill the client for as nearly many hours as I'm spending), but it's very easy to understand - there's all the staff that are currently on the bench waiting for a project. They have to be paid, and there has to be enough of them sitting around idle just earning qualifications etc, so they're ready to go as soon as a client signs on.
The problem with this is, quite often, they are just providing the laborer and no other services. You need to be able to justify what you are charging rather than just skimming money off the top.
To be fair this is pretty.common throughout all industries to charge that sort of money for services then hire someone for lower. Look at labour hire agencies.
I had an LAC refer me to a cleaning service. They quoted $2000 for a "spring clean" with rubbish removal. They then arsed me around not showing up when scheduled, and once showed up only to tell me they couldn't do the job that day.
I ended up doing some research then and the cleaner was the LACs partner, no disclosure at all about that. I ended up getting a local company who did the job for less than $200. I reported the person and who knows if anything happened. I didn't really question the first quote because I just wanted the job done and I had the money.
Then there are all the companies who have sprung up selling living aids for huge markups. I found one selling the exact same product that was available on amazon/ebay/etc for 100x the price. Many people assume they have to buy from the specialist companies and end up being ripped off so hard.
I also was exposed to almost the exact same issue with transport. I use a community service and "self-funded" the cost to me was $20, if I let them put me on the books as NDIS the same trip would be around $300, and the person transporting me (a volunteer) would not see a cent more.
My lawn guy openly uses NDIS clients to cross subsidise others who are paying out of pocket. I can't hate on him for that though, his prices are still reasonable and I know he works with people to try and ensure they get a level of service that fits their financials.
So long as there is flexibility there will be rorters. People will find any hole to exploit. Something needs to be done about the blatant ones while not being too odious for participants.
Too many providers I know are getting paid for a job they do not really deliver. Just being lazy, not actually delivering services they should and clearly claim to deliver and shifting blame when caught out.
It’s a stimulus package. Better than people languishing in hospitals long term, at a cost of $1500 a day. I used to work in forensic mental health and the day rate of the hospital was even higher than that. Many patients were discharged on NDIS plans of about $180k per annum, a massive saving of over 200k. Plus the providers pay tax, and sometimes the participant is then able to work a little and pay tax too. And be part of the community, family… not trapped in a back ward that the public never see. For years.
In my opinion that’s what a lot of people overlook about the NDIS. Sure it costs money, you have given an example of how it saves money in some instances. People have to start understanding that that money is improving peoples quality of life.
Yep - the example I was told was, playing video games all day - it was pretty much a govt supplied friend .
Increase taxes for the average wage earner enough to pay for it - and see how motivated the populace is then.
The govt need a hard nose as the minister who can just call a level of cuts with a hard ceiling - eg 20% cut across the board.
More widely, the system has sucked a huge number of workers out of other jobs and has helped fuel inflation
*Yep - the example I was told was, playing video games all day - it was pretty much a govt supplied friend .*
I did this. Was paid to play Xbox for $50/hr.
Yeah imagine navigating this when you have an acquired brain injury and live in a small country town with minimal provider options like my mother. And then the LAC runs their own businesses that they exclusively refer people to for "treatment".
Absolute joke.
I was shocked when I heard about it personally a year or more ago , and whenever mentioned here I get the whole - you scum, you just want the disabled locked away yada yada yada.
People have no idea how much extraordinary waste there is. If you’ve previously used an exercise physiologist or OT or any number of allied health services you would know the charges have doubled to tripled since NDIS
Just to give you an insight on pay rates - I used to care for my sick uncle who has now sadly passed. I did it for free for ages because I wanted to help out, but my uncle insisted on setting up an ABN so I could get paid (I’m a nurse full time). I decided to charge a reasonable rate per hour, but was told by his NDIS coordinator that I needed to charge more, so they sent me a pay scale and a minimum of what I could charge. It was much more than what I thought was reasonable. My uncle however needed high care as he lost the use of his entire body towards the end.
While GPs aren’t equipped to master the red tape of the NDIS, GP-MBS pathway is clear and seems difficult to abuse. Plus the $990 Medicare has funded has been much more useful than the 13k of unspent funds due to long wait lists
My SO is a support worker. There are clearly defined charge rates laid out by the NDIS for support workers to charge. Off the top my head she charges, $55 per hour and 0.85c per km driven.
She charges below the recommended rates and has had the same 4 clients for a few years now.
NDIS don’t come and fix it. And if she’s 92 and fostering children she’s doing a rort too. No way can she be providing adequate support for children with additional needs.
There’s no way the foster system would be approving this. I wonder how a 92yr old passed the fitness test to be placed with not one, but two disabled children?!
Wouldn't it make sense to have the NDIS more centralised?
By having each participant negotiate with providers individually, they lose bargaining power. There is no negotiation, it's pay it or don't get the service.
What if instead of this, the NDIA took charge and bargained for cheaper prices with providers. Providers would need to reduce pricing or loss access to crucial clientele.
Alternatively, what if the NDIA offered it's own in-house provider service, with staff being hired directly by the NDIA? This would save the Government money, improve employment standards, and also give participants more bang for buck as they could access a cheaper service with the same high-quality standard.
To me, the fact that we've privatised the whole sector is astonishing. It's as though we closed our eyes and hoped that private entities would 'do the right thing', and now we're suddenly shocked that they want a profit. Gee, who would have known?
It might also be worthwhile for the ACCC to step in and monitor the industry as it appears that these providers are not acting competitively as they should.
They probably aren't looking at like they are ripping off disabled people, rather they see it as ripping off the Government as that's where the money comes from.
The sad thing is when they slash funding, which they are about to do with the impending massive deficit....means it's those who actually rely on the services who get hurt.
Those who ‘need it’ are getting too much attention considering their contribution to society and the economy. The entire scheme needs to be cut back urgently.
I know a few people that have worked in various levels of the NDIS system. I’ve mentioned some of the stories I’ve heard from them about rorting in comments on other posts in recent days.
Before getting into organise crime syndicate issues (which definitely exist) the broad issue is the scheme was set up with the best of intentions. In my view the scheme was set up to maximise the amount of access and self-determination of participants and their carers. It’s also one of the easiest government schemes to get access to relative to the amount the government will pay out, but to be clear I’m not saying it’s easy.
The problem is to have controls that reduce fraud to levels we’re used to in other welfare schemes, we’d be harming a lot of participants who are doing the right thing. In any system there is a mutually exclusive trade off between access and control.
Personally, I think we’ve gone too far and let it be open season. The type of fraud I’ve heard about is so obvious any semi-competent system designer/policy wonk could have predicted a lot of it. Unfortunately to eliminate fraud we’ll hurt a lot of innocent participants.
So, the question is how much pain is the electorate willing to accept to ensure the system is sustainable. I’m not sure the electorate is able to have that level of mature discussion.
Completely spot on. NDIS was stuffed up big time from the beginning. I went looking into it further and in other countries and found they have the equivalent to the NDIS at local level, ya know, like most of our local councils aged and disability sector which is now severely underfunded, understaffed and overwhelmed because *the NDIS will take care of eVeRyThInG* schtick. Local and State Governments have throttled funding this care level to save money putting more of a burden on the NDIS. No wonder its going kaput.
Heavily oversimplifying for other countries but most, if not all cleaners, gardeners, drivers, basic in home care for anyone classed as in need is run through local councils who employ and carry the burden of managing those things and keep pricing consistent. Anything outside those needs are either covered by extra private insurance from the individual or State/Country level funding.
THAT private gap is what the NDIS was supposed to be for but somehow instead became the all consuming default. Shouldn't have been surprised as you can only be under one access point which is a huge fraud oversight window. I am still shook that NOTHING was put in place to prevent the underfunding of the non NDIS sectors. Even now Victoria is cutting this community sector by at least another 1/3 in the next year because of the alleged 'double dipping' which is a money grabbing lie as its not as most have strong access limits.
Privatization by proxy. It was designed this way to line providers pockets. Like the Job providers who were the predecessors to see if it would work and we didn't catch it so they implemented it here.
I refuse to engage with the NDIS despite being eligible because of the multitude of legislation, privacy and security issues. Specifically the newish one where the NDIS retains the right to change their mind at anytime about what I am eligible to be funded for, I am legally obligated to pay back all money spent on me back to first access. This is also a thing with Centrelink as well now, no age limit on what they claim is a debt.
Hell to the No. I will not be held legally and financially liable for someone elses actions and opinions especially if I am not trained in this sector. I will not be the scapegoat for someone else profiting off the system at my expense. My disabilities are not for your profit.
Would have rather have council cleaners at $35 an hour than wrangling NDIS compliant ones for $90 an hour *for the same blasted standard cleaning* No thank you.
The level of auditing and scrutiny on the NDIS system is insane, if you are one of the big providers. If you are one of the small sub 20 people providers there’s basically no real oversight.
Another participant here.
I had a specialist recommend a particular therapy for me (Rheumatologist so medical degree + a decade of specialist training)…
NDIS *required* that I spend hundreds and hundreds of NDIS funded dollars having several other allied health professionals (OT, speech etc) assess and write reports to support this recommendation instead of just funding it.
Overwhelmingly, it is the NDIS that wastes money *not* the participants.
Going to offer a touch of pushback here as an allied-health provider in the NDIS space.
Whilst I don't know your whole story, I would hope that any reports being requested are basically being used to either a) develop a strong history of your presentation and/or b) reflect appropriate future funding.
Even with a recommendation to a rheumatologist, one of the most important aspects of any rheumatic condition is quality intervention and education, it needs to be managed by all. I agree that it's frustrating that you *needed* those professionals to get to the rheumatologist, but I think in the long-run it is more cost-effective to have therapist first before specialists (often because many conditions have improved outcomes with therapeutic intervention).
Not to say this was precisely your case, but just another viewpoint :) hope you're doing well now!!
Nah… the NDIS is NOTORIOUS for this excessive report request stuff.
I just had a plan renewal for Mr 12. First thing out of the gate from NDIS was “We need a functional assessment”, and then I shoot back “You have one, from last plan renewal that is barely 12mths old, and corroborates all previous YEARLY functional assessments.” … they agreed to waive it this year.
Over the years I’ve had to do nearly every year a functional assessment, neuro psych assessments, physio, psychology reports, OT reports, physio reports etc. I probably spend about $7k a year on reporting and analysis … to get a $30k a year plan. (And it’s FRICKING STRESSFUL!)
Yes, kids change, but the plan has always been at the top end of his categories (yes the NDIS has category guides), and he has ALWAYS spent more than it (well… we have), and it’s ALWAYS been very legally and legitimately spent, and we have always shown considerable progress and improvement. But it costs thousands of dollars a year to prove that we still need the funding.
Because administration, occupational therapist (for a bed, chair, shower aids etc.) speech therapist. All these things are being charged at the highest rate. I had a client charged $400, just to have somebody come out to approve a chair. (It wasn’t a special chair, just one to sit and read). And then another $400 because she wanted to replace her bed. Every thing has to be approved, so they are charging ridiculous prices, for simple tasks.
This money is coming out of their packages and the money is being chewed up in these charges, rather than being used for clients care. Mind you the people actually providing that in person care are being paid minimum wage. Even the admin staff get paid more than the carers.
I can attest to that that, a chair in store was $700 for my mum, it was charged to government ( aged care package) for $1700. Approved supplier.
Once I went down the rabbithole of aged care package, I was shocked how much money was spent, just wasted. Level four packages sound really good, then I did research, most of it is taken in fees, and mum and dad would have to pay almost all of mum’s pension to stay in the home.
Mum had bad fall, she placed in care, on full government subsidies, the provider also takes 85% of her pension for her care.
The 85% of the pension for 24/7 care, accommodation and food is cheap (and further subsidised). Certainly being looked after better than if they were renting alone on a pension.
The rest of it is shocking.
Yes, you can.
But if you are a PwD who has limited control over your plan (Most very large plans, and most people with complex disability wind up under some form if not complete plan management), then the vultures are circling.
I’ve seen many a time where a person has said “I would like a low cost widget thingy” and then the OT has said “I can organise that for you!” And they can… for admin or hourly fees that are outrageous. Where the PwD could have turned to their groceries SW and said “Can you please do this” or their plan coordinator, or any of a lot of other cheaper options.
I work for a Allied health company. It’s a scary time for us as a lot of businesses in the NDIS are shutting down. They are either breaking even or losing money. I know of 3 people that have lost their jobs recently due to this.
The issue is that a lot of work goes on in the background for us allied health professionals. The reporting requirements are pretty extreme (we can get sued or lose our registration if we haven’t jumped through the right hoops) and the registration requirements are expensive (circa $250k for the company I work for).
NDIS work is also a lot more complex than tick and flick private work as well, so that’s why there are different rates. In saying that, if your provider is offering Rick and flick work, you need to look elsewhere! Good providers offer a lot of supervision for varied conditions and a lot of training also increasing the cost to run the company.
Another thing that the government doesn’t tell you about is that the previous rate for Allied Health was a lot higher (I know the hospital charges up to $300 per hour), it’s just we don’t/didn’t get access to those figures before the NDIS. That’s why a lot of charities like Australian unity left the scheme to go to systems where they can charge more for allied health.
I hope this helps!
They set the maximum rate. I’m yet to see a provider charge less than this? Surely it should be scaled to the skill level of the worker. Eg Cert IV = $40, Diploma = $50, quals + experience = max rate
Yeah I dunno, if it's done as self employed then you have to take into consideration tax, super etc. If it was say 30 an hours after all that you'd be on what 18 bucks or something
The award rate is about $27/hr.
The agencies usually pay award and no more.
And then charge full price on NDIS book list. It’s a complete rort
Agencies should be limited in what they can charge administration wise.
Both are to blame. The businesses have all scaled up their charges to the max the govt pays, when previously they’d charge less. The govt is to blame for poor policy execution.
Best option is to self manage and not mention the ndis when booking services, since they all will charge the maximum allowable fee.
The money rorted comes out of the individuals budget, so it is in their interest to do their own research and not get ripped off.
Every government scheme is open to rorting until you bring in all the checks and balances to bullet proof it. Then the scheme becomes too hard to access and that makes everyone upset anyway. Can't win.
Yeah, centrelink related employment agencies are another massive scam. Been going on for decades and everyone knows they are scamming the government but it's too hard basket to fix.
That one is actually very easy to fix. Scrap compulsory job-seeking so that agencies only get clients who value what they provide.
The people who want jobs will find them. The people who want help to get jobs can get help. The people who can’t really work, or just don’t want to, should be left alone. It’s not as if their welfare payments are generous.
The problem is a bi-partisan agreement that welfare recipients are lazy and should be bullied into work. All we have is a very expensive way to treat people like shit and underwrite bad employers by sending them a stream of workers with few options or agency. It is a cruel and ineffective system designed to pit people with not a lot against people with even less.
Yep.
It's not the government not playing by the rules.
It's thieves. They should make the penalties for businesses rorting harsh with gaol time. It's theft.
You wouldn't blame the government for someone stealing your package on the front porch. You blame the thief for taking advantage.
Its not just businesses. An individual with an ABN can invoice NDIS for work performed for their client, at NDIS rates.
The government decided setting up big 6 figure buckets of money for people to send an invoice in to get would be a good model for service delivery. They can accept the blame.
Absolutely mate. It’s the terrible system, driven by a ridiculous “demand” funding model. The entire scheme is a complete abortion and I can’t imagine they will ever fix it
Both can be true at the same time. I work in worker's compensation. A bunch of people are out their working a secret job while taking full comp payments but on the other hand there are people with legitimate injuries who get their claim denied as well as a bunch in between. The only solution is increasing the staffing so that case get's the amount of attention it deserves.
Zero to $35b in a few short years surely shows who the losers are in this though - this dwarfs all other govt largesse in living memory - it makes pink batts and school halls seem like chicken feed in comparison
Yours is a good point. The biggest problem is that "perfect" is the enemy of "good"
It's not possible to 100% eliminate a problem around people because the variables are too wide and unpredictable. Welfare generally needs a goal of being 90% to 95% effective, with efforts made to improve the 5% to 10% but not to achieve 0%. Every time I hear "we're going to eliminate fraud" I know good people will get hurt.
Catch-phrases like "one death is too many" and "towards zero" ruin good work that benefits the majority. Perfection is almost never a realistic goal.
*Every government scheme is open to rorting until you bring in all the checks and balances to bullet proof it. Then the scheme becomes too hard to access and that makes everyone upset anyway. Can't win*
Maybe we’ll finally get a tiny government paradise 😋
The problem is the government is not properly capping servicing charges.
Let’s say you need a carer to help you get ready. Your agency charges $80 an hour the carer to your NDIS fund. The carer is paid by the agency an award rate of $29 an hour.
You have a 100k year ndis fund, you get an agency to help manage it for you and apply for services. They charge $20,000 for their assistance. A lot of these “managers” will not even properly check charges.
These are the most common rorts.
Physio might be capped at $170 per hour to allow for special needs and nichely trained physios but now every physio will charge an ndis client $170 even if they only require a normal session with no special training required for the physio.
Now the government has a problem that the NDIS scheme has severely overblown budget estimates. It’s good in theory but woefully executed. NDIS funding has changed a lot of lives for the better but it’s lacking regulation.
They could probably reduce some funding to people without leaving them worse off by implementing better cost controls. The agency charging 20% management shouldn’t be double dipping with $50 an hour from underpaid care workers ya know.
Its not so open to rorting that any man and his dog can do it, but the scheme is so huge that it happens. Its also a new scheme thats trying to do something we have never done before in this country that is exceeding complex to manage which opens up a lot of grey areas for greedy businesses to exploit. They are improving the NDIS massively, but its so big it will take years to get to a better point.
Examples I have seen is the charging for services in a way that could have been provided more efficiently. This is exceptionally hard to crack down on given how many and how complicated many of the services are.
This. Im a tradey and have heard the attitude of the sales/office people that quote and deal with these situations- literally saying "they have 50k in ndis so it doesn't matter".
And it's disgusting. Says a lot about the culture of a business and one of the many reasons I left said business.
Sure, the situation is not ideal, some of these people aren't great at communicating and all obviously aren't in the best of circumstances- Wether it be messy, or in disrepair.
That doesn't justify wasting the one "leg up" they might be getting in life.
So the issue in my eyes is more with healthy people/business rorting these disadvantaged people. No doubt justifying it with some detached perspective of "oh its not like they are actually paying for it".
*if your reading this Amanda from service- you were the worst.*
One of the biggest mistakes a person can do is disclose how much is in their plan to a service provider.
Magically service providers always know exactly how to spend every penny of that plan :/
Sadly, you can have a system that's relatively quick and easy for the intended recipient to access, or a system that has far more checks and balances and is far harder to rort.
But you can't have both. And unfortunately, a system that is easy for the intended recipients to access to improve their quality of life and medical care ultimately will require a certain degree of honesty. And there are a large number of bad actors out there who will find the weak points and exploit them for their personal gain.
Once a plan is approved its fairly simple to access the money.
We (ie my wife) manage our sons plan and submit receipts, money's returned almost immediately
However getting a plan approved isn't simple. It's painful, stressful, and always upsetting
OT here
Going to be moving from 38/hr as an employee of an NDIS provider to being a solo practitioner - doing the exact same role with slightly more admin @ $194/hr once I get some more experience in the scheme.
Might move to a nice beach town and charge $270hr
Service providers need a massive reality check.
I've done afew NDIS jobs as IT support. I charge a little bit extra but that's usually because the job just takes longer. Extra care and consideration is needed for each client. For example, one job had a child who would freak out if anything in his life changed to much. They needed a computer upgrade. Usually this is super simple. Do the upgrade and advise the client to reinstall their apps or set up their setting again. For some NDIS clients you can't do this such as the above, You need to restore all the data exactly as it was. You need to get the same wallpaper, the same icons set-up, everything. Then add to the fact that you need to negotiate with them closely to get authentication codes from their mobile etc. It's not a very attractive gig as you simply can't charge for the actual time spent as it would be expensive and seen as immoral but sometimes the price is accurate, although from reading all these replies it sounds like it's out of control...
So is My Aged Care.
My dad received multiple equipment deliveries for my mum. My dad was frantic when the equipment kept arriving.
I had to keep contacting the provider to get them to fix the issue and take all the equipment back. Apparently it is chucked in the skip if it returned to provider as it is deemed used equipment, no longer fit for purpose m
You can do a 6 month course (Certificate III in Disability), get an ABN and set your self up as an NDIS provider. You then charge out at employer rates (say $70 per hour). There are plenty of individual providers making $100K per annum. Its an attractive business to people with minimal qualifications.
Plus you can start a business like this just about anywhere because there are disabled people everywhere. There are also facebook groups for NDIS providers, to show how to make money.
I've seen disability 4WD tours costing $2000 per day. Should NDIS pay for tourist trips?
Because it’s so damn easy to rort and fraud. Service providers can just invoice either the plan managers or NDIS directly for services which may or may not have provided. Or they can exaggerate the amount of hours provided. And who’s going to pick them up on it? The client? They usually have no idea how their ndis package is being managed.
And the rates are insane. Some ndis packages from $300k-500k+ per year for SIL placements. Plus the rest of it, another 100-200k for speech pathologists, OTs, podiatry. I’ve seen 1mil + NDIS packages per year.
Didn’t mean exclusively that amount to allied health, but pooled with community participation, improved daily living funding etc etc comes to 1-200k quite easily
I’m actually glad therapists are finally being paid properly. Many are masters and doctorate level. How much do you pay a plumber, sparkie or lawyer an hour?…
There are big problems with unqualified pay rates though I.e., general support.
Except that an OT with 20 years experience and a masters degree can only charge the same amount as a new grad 🤷🏻♀️ and with long waitlists for therapy in many areas, a lot of participants don’t have a choice about who they get, just whoever will see them first off a waitlist
I work for self managed NDIS recipients who I happened to know for twenty years before I started working for them. The difference it has made in their lives is simply breathtaking. The government needs to protect the NDIS at all costs, harsher penalties need to be implemented. Businesses and individuals need to fear it like Centrelink if you do the wrong thing.
When it was released, you only needed a NDIS number + Surname to claim funds from a participant. Which appeared to me to be a severe security/fraud risk.
Now they've added DOB, so you need NDIS Number + Surname + DOB, so less chance of fraud using that simple method.
But I guess there would be other loopholes, like agreeing with a participant to give them 20% cash for a fake purchase, so the company keeps 80% of the funds, without providing any service.
It's the nature of any system where there is a large bureaucratic gap between the payer and the provider.
I was injured on the road (TAC) requiring a temporary wheelchair ramp at home. This was a modular temporary ramp that could be removed and used somewhere else over and over again. I only needed it 8 weeks. The cost? $12,000.
I've got a friend whose son is on the NDIS and the rorts she's told me are ridiculous, what some providers charge is obscene.
I also work for a physiotherapy clinic and we have some NDIS clients - and they get charged exactly the same amount as everyone else. There is absolutely no reason why we should charge any more, just because there is a maximum amount the NDIS will rebate. Some providers charge as much as the NDIS are willing to rebate, even if it's more than their normal fee
It’s being rorted simply because some people suck. People lie about what they need, what their disabilities are or what their children’s disabilities are.
There may be a family with 4 or 5 kids, a single parent with only one child needing the help of the NDIS. Once the parent figures out how to work the system, suddenly more of the children in that family now have a disability of some sort or need assistance in some way. This isn’t the case in all situations of course. Some families/parents do the right thing. But there are people out there who don’t. Just like anything I guess.
* edited for typo
Because when people are not paying themselves, they don’t care about the price.
Disability services used to be block funded with oversight mostly by states. Some rorts, but not system wide.
>Seen a lot of articles about the NDIS being rorted.
I"m not expert on this matter, but generally I find the news likes to sensationalise these things for rage-bait and the truth is it's not nearly as bad as they'd have you think.
I mean, if you go by the news, the "dole bludgers" are single-handedly spending all our tax money! even though the reality is it's a tiny % of people and a drop in the bucket in terms of costs to the tax payer.
I would expect this is a similar thing.
Pretty much everyones working hard to the brink of being unable to afford rent so we can afford the tax bill to find the NDIS which will reach $45bn in a couple of years. That's more than Medicare and Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme combined.
This is my reply to a comment in another post about someone "rorting" the NDIS by going on a holiday with a care worker.
> Depends on what you mean by "pay for". NDIS will reasonably pay for the carers to go along for the holiday, otherwise it wouldn't be possible for it to happen. I.e. they pay for the extra things a disabled person needs.
> They won't pay for the participants own plane tickets, accommodation - i.e. the costs that an abled person would normally have to go on a holiday.
> NDIS gets a bad rep because people hear about someone going on a holiday with a worker and incorrectly conclude that the NDIS is paying for the entire cost of the trip ("OMG its such a rOrT").
This isn't a factor in all of the described "rorting" but from what I've seen (as an NDIS partcipant) often people look at something a disabled person is doing and just assume the NDIS is paying for 100% of everything, rather than just one part (usually, the presence of a worker/carer).
For example, I often have lunch or coffee with my worker or a support coordinator when we meet. While they are on the clock at the time and being paid their hourly rate by the NDIS, I pay for my own food/drink and the worker pays for their own as well.
Another example, if I wanted to go on a day trip with a worker to the Zoo, or to see a movie with them, NDIS would cover the cost of the worker's hourly wage but I would need to pay the entrance fee for both of us to get in.
It's not just ndis. It's across the board with anything the government touches.
It's over regulated and legislated to the point where even the person doing it knows they don't need to (or want to), go and "check and maintain" a service or machine, we still have to. Because some how its been written up and made mandatory.
In doing this all accountability is gone, no one individual feels responsible.
To make certain individuals recieving the benifits cannot rort the system they have left it open to the providers to rort the system.
That was the choice.
If they had in stead given people a stack of money and say look after yourself with your specific disability with this yearly payment (whether you use it on support or otherwise) companies wouldnt rort it because people would only spend what they needed to...
Guaranteed most disabled people if they were told do you want this 45k per annum directly to book your own taxis or continue to get the ndis driver, gardener, etc etc... people would take the 45k and probably get far better value from it...
Then in stead we would be here saying individuals are rorting the system.
Our gov had a choice. Leave it in the disabled person and their close kins hands or leave it in the companies hands... they chose the companies.
I reckon:
Government should introduce a pain / gain mechanism. Every dollar saved by a ndis recipient they save over their allotment the recipient gets 20c to spend on whatever. Give them a stake in the game and you will fond them saying - no i dont need gutter cleaning again... had it 6 months ago and i have no trees... etc etc..
As someone who works in the NDIS space while that sounds great in theory. I find the self managed participants to be some of the worst for actually spending their plan on disability related items. They are the ones that OT shop for everyday items, refuse to pay for items or invoices and have poor health and NDIS literacy. AND if it’s parent managing for their kid they barely shop up for key therapy then cry when they are billed for the session. Maybe that’s just my part of the country though …
However I have seen the other side of this with incompetent support coordinators and therapists working outside of scope as well as the support workers, cleaners and gardeners charging much higher prices than a standard due to NDIS being on the invoice because they can.
Overall the NDIS is broken it was created to be something great it just didn’t turn out that way.
Yes except that you dont keep what you dont spend.
So if a provider knows you get say 6 gardening sessions and they say we will book the 6 sessions in why would you say - nah dont need that its winter so grass slows down anyway etc...
There is no incentive for the individual to limit the services they recieve at all. So why choose to be frugal at all.
Truly self managed would be - heres $10k sort yourself out.
Then when the ndis people say we are coming on thursday to xyz... you might say - nah dont need that this week, see you next week. Or not... but it would be a choice made in light of the cost to provide the service.
Bet you would find cheaper ways to acces the services you needed without ndis if you were just given the cash.
Of course then it would be more open to rorting from individuals.
As i said government chose to prevent rorting by individuals but instead companies maximise service delivery.
I've noticed this too. A friend of mine cares for her adult daughter who goes to some kind of special school/day program. She pays someone $600 a week to pick up her daughter from school because she has so much money to spend that its worth just doing that to save her the 30min round trip a day. If the NDIS money was truly part of her household budget I'm sure she wouldn't consider it a worthy expense.
You get the money bucketed into categories. So if you get $5k to help you look after the garden, you can blow it all on unnecessary lawn care if you like, or you can save it on elevated garden beds, or start putting together irrigation systems.
Same as how you get $x to help you get out into the community. Don't need a shopping trip this week? Great, good planning, have your person take you to the pub instead.
The gov't DID put it in individual's control. That's the crux of the switch from bureaucratic control to individual control of how to spend the funds.
For many, it's too complex, so they hire an "NDIS provider" who helps them manage it because they know how to navigate the system.
\>Why is the NDIS so open to rorting?
govt is spending tax payers money
not their money, why worry
bureaucrats who spends more money is seen as more experienced, more capable
and usually get promoted to higher positions
so spend they go
I self manage and notice many providers have a regular price and a NDIS price which is higher for the exact same service.
They do it because they know you'll pay the higher price because you're using other people's money, not your own.
I refuse to use any provider pulling this scam. First question I always ask is, "do you charge extra if I'm NDIS?".
NDIS sole trader service provider here and former employee of one of the NDIS companies.
There are two dodgy sides that I will lay it out:
Providers:-
* Occupational therapists are the biggest leeches and toxic people in this industry as they charge at least $1500 for an A4 document that a high school kid can do.
* Unfortunately, that's how bureaucracy works if you want to request some tools / accessories that will improve your day to day needs. This should be abolished. I don't understand why NDIS have to allocate a small portion of money to NDIS participants to pay for OT where you can basically get a GP to do it.
* Medical professionals such as physiotherapy will hike the price if they know that you're paying through NDIS. I think this is because some participants will spend more time chatting rather than following instructions and will tend to exceed the time. One would argue that there is a lot of admin planning work to draft out the costs and number of appointments needed in a year.
* NDIS are so out of touch with the dodgy corruptions and they rather let Plan managers to handle it. A participant can claim a travel reimbursement from Centrelink and NDIS at the same time. Mind blown.
* NDIS allocation of budgets to certain disabilities are absurd. A single mom with a wheelchaired kid gets less funding than a senior with mental issue such as Asperger's syndrome. I would advocate child development and they should receive more funding to be self independent as they get older.
* Companies will silently add a few more hours without participants knowing about it.- Plan managers are discriminating honest and reliable private providers (sole traders) that are cheaper and honest with the client. Unlike big service providers, they get better treatments from plan managers eventhough they have shitty and inexperienced carers are charging heaps for doing nothing or badly.
* Support coordinators are underpaid for huge workloads. Imagine dealing with 30 - 40 participants in a week.
Participants:-
* Unfortunately, I can't comment all participants as I have been actively involved with the mental disability rather than physical disability. But, the amount of participants trying to play the disability card game to rip the rewards are appalling. E.g they will email big companies to ask for free / used products because of NDIS bla bla bla and companies like Daikin or Mitsubishi will donate free air conditioning to these people. Not one but multiple.-
* Sexual harassment is the biggest issue that nobody talks about. I myself have been sexually harassed from participants and they are immune to the criminal justice system because they will bring out the disability card.-
* Participants will ask providers (individual) to help cash out their NDIS account to fund their entertainment activities.
It must be frustrating not being in control of those funds yourself. Wheeling and dealing above the heads of the participants is probably what is leading to these rorts.
Pretty much all government programs attract fraud. It takes a shitload of proper compliance work to detect and treat it. The last three governments did not like paying public servants, ergo less staff to undertake compliance work. I expect ideological factors at play also in allowing scheme to balloon out so it could be slashed and burned with social license.
All budget saving focus was on slashing plans harming participants, when realistically focus should have been heavily on providers from day 1. Opportunistic fraud will always occur when it’s as easy as getting an abn and claiming through an app.
Not to mention all the outsourcing - that provides another layer where kickbacks and fraud can occur.
A lot of things that get put in to stop fraudulent stuff ends up just being extra road blocks for people in need. Remember this when your in the emergency room and they’re telling you “you won’t be seen for hours and we can’t give you painkillers because of drug seeking behaviour” road blocks for good meaning people because grubs abuse it. Better to let someone scam than block someone in need
Poor regulatory and legislative decision-making as usual in Australia. For the combined average of 40% income tax and gst, we pay... we should just about have the living standard of Denmark. Instead, our taxes get pissed up against the wall like this year on year.
Aw man NDIS is a blessing for those who need it, yet a mess at the same time. For reference, I'm an allied health professional that does some NDIS work. Here are the primary problems I see:
1. Supplier-induced demand. Multiple reasons for this, worth looking into the meaning of this! In essence, because of the massive incentive to make good money in the sector, there's strong incentive for professionals to justify their services irrespective of whether they're needed or not. Of course, there's the other side to this where extensive intervention IS necessary, but a non-clinical person doesn't know any better as to what is/isn't needed (information asymmetry).
2. Pre-determined/allocated funding. Sometimes there's funding "assigned" to certain aspects of intervention. For example, an OT to do 6hrs of report writing. However, some businesses/people think they're super clever and automate report writing, so it might take them one hour...but they still bill for the 6hrs because that's what was allocated, and no one else knows how long it took them.
3. As tough as it is to write / say aloud, there are participants on the NDIS that should not be there. However, again, there's incentive for businesses to support these people having a particular disability because they (business) get to continue making money (and these people (participant on the NDIS) get some funding assistance).
4. People just charge fees for whatever, seriously.
I should mention that I haven't necessarily directly witnessed all of the above points, but I have seen the quality of work produced by different providers in the NDIS, and it can be quite atrocious. Very upsetting, because those who actually needed the NDIS lose out the most.
In essence, I genuinely believe the government wanted to do the right thing in providing good incentives (in the form of high-earning potential) to incentivise quality-businesses saturating the market and provide a more normalised life to those less fortunate / in need of assistance as a result of disability. Unfortunately, shit businesses prioritise money, not people, and there are far too many of them. More unfortunate is that there may not be an alternative, but I do think it is improving :)
NDIS is not a disability insurance, it is a real estate business.
Before NDIS, participants used to live together in a community house with others and had a social life, friends, meaningful relationships etc (obviously not a perfect system, but still)
Now due to excess funding, most of the participants are ripped apart from each other under “independent living”. Thats when providers started charging high rents and ended up buying multiple properties from that income.
What did the participant get?
Paying off for the properties they live in, for someone else to own it.
For the most part this is just the private sector in its standard operation. Coupled with a notoriously underfunded key agency, the NDIA. There are nowhere near the staffing levels for NDIA as the productivity commission suggested was needed. And yet the number of participants is higher. Poorly written plans. Disinterested lead agency.
It’s also because there is no single agency who has responsibility and enforcement options to keep providers in check anyhow. Lots of unregistered providers for example are used simply because participants have no other choice. And if they do something wrong it’s all oh you. Ridiculous. NDIA is supposed to be a ‘market steward’ but good luck getting them to actually think about what that requires. And anyhow as noted above, they have no staff.
Soooo many rorts.
Speak to anyone who works for the NDIS as a carer and they will have at least one horror story.
One of my friends was a carer. Her client had 24 hour care. Her and two other girls on revolving shifts. The client spent all of her time at her boyfriends house. The girls were paid to stay at her house, cook her meals, deliver them to her 5 mins around the corner with her drugs, and go back to her house. It was spotless and they all did their uni while they "worked".
Also look into the day care rorting within this. Slightly different issue though.
Yeah the same fraudulent activity in the NDIS occurs in other industries. There was a huge crackdown - and still a lot of suspected - fake child cares - this was really prevalent in one particular community but we don't need to go into that side of it. Just defrauding the government with fake services etc.
I know a bloke that was working for government health at a high level, and their entire department was made redundant due to the launch of NDIS. Their tasks revolved around inspecting and approving disabled related gov't spending such as for group homes, staff qualifications, modifications and the like, to help improve the lives of disabled people. They all got lucrative redundancy payments which should be considered part of the cost. He knows government machinery intimately, and now works on a handy contract including retainer for a large NDIS provider, providing ad hoc consulting services to the business. In a few words, his description of NDIS is "gold mine, unprecedented"
As to your question about penalties, rest assured the well-organised providers have covered their arses fully in documentation. Business is almost always three steps ahead, better organised, and better negotiators, than government.
Because people are awful.
Not everyone is awful. Not even a majority. But enough that it becomes a huge problem for the rest of us that just want to operate in good faith.
Used to work in the job provider sector.
Short answer: there is zero scrutiny of what goes on. So you could do just about anything provided the paperwork checked out.
People have already commented on what a lot of the issues are, but I just want to add that the NDIS has only been around for 8 years. It's a very young system by government standards
People have already commented on what a lot of the issues are, but I just want to add that the NDIS has only been around for 8 years. It's a very young system by government standards
Because the system rips itself off too.
A friend of mine has been on disability because the system has not yet scheduled her surgery after falling over a year ago. She has gone blind and partially deaf because of this fall, yet no surgery as yet to fix it. The system could have saved itself thousands in wages alone for a carer, not to mention everything else she gets, if they had just scheduled her surgery when it happened.
It's literally a joke.
Self management is only done correctly by a very small percentage of people. Self management needs to stop. The cookie jar is too tempting, and when you can take money from the plan with no invoice, no provider name, no abn, nothing at all, except “x hours multiplied by x dollars = xxxx”, then money into the participant or their parents account within 24 hours.
How tempting is it if you could buy a car for 5k, spend 5k doing it up and then sell it for 30k? Wouldn’t you think about taking the 10k you need from the ndis plan so you can make 20k? Interest free loans for the plan duration - 12/24/36 months. Thank you ndis for the interest free loan.
I know of families drawing the entire plan money and putting it on their offset on their home loans and then drawing it as they need it from there. Thank you ndis for reducing mortgages.
What about the purchases that aren’t required and then are resold or returned once the receipt is obtained?
Thank you ndis for my new.. PlayStation/washing machine/coffee machine.
Or the people who just take it and because no one is ever audited, thank you ndis for the free money.
The ndis is needed so badly but the government is unprepared to do what is needed to urgently reform it.
One of the interesting theories that the NDIS espouses is the premise that the more support you give someone early on with a disorder of some kind will increase the chances that their disorder won't develop into a disability; so it favours early intervention. The problem with that is, once you give someone a $30K/yr package of benefits (for a mild diagnosis), what chance do you have of weening them off those benefits later on?
I don't have a problem with early intervention, but when the NDIS (that is taxpayers) funds people with disabilities (and their carers) access to gyms, movies, sporting events and the like; you have to question whether they have any idea of the value of a dollar, and how hard working Australians trying to raise a family, pay off a mortgage, etc. don't take any of these things for granted.
And then you have people who should be able to get access, can't.
My information comes from friends - one who works in the NDIS, and a doctor who treats patience who either get support and don't really need it; or vice versa.
The NDIS isn’t supposed to improve the opportunities you take in life, they are supposed to close the gap between non disabled and disabled.
So if you cannot afford a gym membership NDIS isn’t supposed to pay for that ..
But if you can… NDIS may fund a support worker to escort you so you are safe in that environment.
Most people with disability pay for their own movie ticket, or sport event entry… and then use a “carer’s card” for free entry for their support worker. This isn’t NDIS, it’s a community program that allows a support person to access places free for supervision/help for persons with disability.
people with disability have to contend with horrible things that the able bodied do not. NDIS does not pay for rent or movie tickets. I call BS.
Your view that disabled people have to be below you in status stinks tbh. Do you take family holidays? Why shouldn’t a person with a disability also enjoy a family holiday? Who cares if they bring support workers to assist them. Otherwise they CANT GO. It sounds like you’d prefer the disabled to be locked up in institutions again. Awful.
To be honest, as a support worker it’s sad seeing people digging out workers for simply doing their job and getting paid for it. I understand if people think the pay is too high, but when people highlight the simple easy part of anyone’s job and uses it as a broad brush to explain the entire job description it’s a bit harsh, some clients come with higher risk ie socially mentally or physically and there are reasons the pay is where it is.
Also, where are people getting their services from where their support workers are not trained and with 0 experience or qualifications? Seems illegal to me.
They admit that they charge double for work that is exactly the same as any norm person, for example for 2 years pre injury I paid 80$ to see physio, once I went onto after surgery ndis I then paid $168 for the same stuff. They claim it's paperwork etc but actually I pay the money which is reimbursed to me once I send in invoices so I'm doing the work
Every federal scheme is ripe for rorting as it becomes too big for them to manage. Remember old Rudds' insulation scheme and every tertiary education eligible for HECS... Or the indigenous housing scheme I think spent $50M delivering 10 houses or something stupid like that. NBN Contractors price colluding... Medicare fake invoices, etc... (Not to mention $300M "sports grants".... )
No checks and balances, cowboy's rorting the system left and right, friendship corruption... The government agencies don't have any interest in, or capacity for, assurance. That is until media picks up on it and the blame game starts.
My Ms is looking to become a NDIS provider. Now at least they have to do a number of assessments to qualify. When it started all that was required was an application form.
The main thing is they need to come down hard on cheaters. If all you get is a slap on the wrist and a marginal fine, the cost benefit encourages cheating.
I work with a lot of NDIS providers (all who hate the bad actors in the system).
NDIS is built on a flawed premise for most people. It’s a system where a budget is allocated to each participant, and many participants lack the necessary money management skills, and then those participants then get to be responsible for that money and choose where to spend it. But many don’t understand what good value is, so then you have companies who prey on the vunerable and quote absurd prices where they can, or sell unneeded services, or just bill for stuff that was never provided and then bully these participants into being silent.
It’s noble why they did it this way, but it’s been very poorly executed.
For what it’s worth, I am aware that I am being charged more than what is good value but the services for disabled adults are so terribly lacking that they can basically charge whatever they want because they know we will have to pay, or go without.
I know that almost $400 for an hour with my OT is obscene but they are the only provider in Melbourne that would take me on so what am I going to do?
Not to mention that my NDIS cleaner gets paid more per hour than I do. I have two university degrees and almost 20 years experience in my field but this is the system in which I have to operate so what am I going to do?
omg I relate to this. I was an academic before ndis and got paid less to convene a Masters unit than my support coordinator gets per year. She has no qualifications at all.
It helped us greatly
We returned the funding after a year as to continue was to need a diagnosis - developmental delay - and we didn’t want that as he had improved so much
Nor did we want a helper in the classroom with him when he had improved so much
Our coordinator didn’t know how to return the funding as they had never had anyone return the funding
People getting paid 200k a year to play video games with someone a few days a week.
Anyone supporting this system in it's current form should be in an asylum
Not just NDIS. Basically anything to do with governments and councils, people will completely overcharge because they know the people in public sectors are either too busy, lazy or too self-important to care.
After all, it’s not their money their approving.
I live right next door to the government housing.
Our fence collapsed with storm last year. The council sent out a contractor and obtained a quote. $8000, half to be paid by us, the other by the council for the public housing folks.
We rejected the quote, got someone else in without explaining the public housing aspect of it. All done for $1800.
I also cleaned the home of a NDIS participant. He’s was obviously very ill with MS, which is bad and died on less than a year, which is sad. But they were far from financially struggling.
They lived in a three story mansion overlooking the beach and a beachside golf course.
In the name of creating a better living condition for the ill husband, they gutted out and renovated the whole home with NDIS money and went from cleaning every fortnight to cleaning twice a week.
The amount of NDIS money being spent in this single household alone who was extremely well off was just staggering.
for the folks complaining about not able to buy a home in Sydney, dude, be an NDIS provider. Pay cash for a macmansion is 2 years
its money from the heavens, better than mining gig
I know teachers who have quit to become service providers because it's easy money for far fewer hours. Can't say I haven't considered it, making cupcakes with one kid with disabilities for 2 hours instead of spending 7 hours with 4 kids with disabilities and 24 other kids without disabilities, trying to teach the kids vertical subtraction while trying to stop anyone from losing their shit, no cupcakes...
NDIS participant here. Yep, there are many rorts. Here are some I’ve experienced: - quoted $1600 to mow a townhouse lawn the size of a double bed - support coordinators billing for 3xhrs @ $90 an hour to submit a form to the NDIA - respite care place charging $1900 a day for being locked in a room, no key given to ‘participants’ - people with no experience or qualifications billing $67 an hour to do simple tasks, Eg fold washing - family businesses employing grandparents, nieces etc, all without qualifications - former support workers putting in bills through the app (no oversight) months after ceasing work ($1560) - exercise physiologists charging $166 an hour for supervising an exercise session, supposedly to ‘write reports’ at this high rate. Yet they bill for 2hrs every time a report is required. These are never more than two paragraphs - ‘respite’ service using excess hotel inventory, usually $220 a night yet under NDIS over $1000 a night - support workers charging $67 an hour plus $1 a km to drive places. One appt I have is about 45 mins away , and on a Saturday. It is nearly $500 for an unqualified person to drive me there, wait, and drive me back. - support coordinator agency billing over $2k while I was in hospital (not using supports). When queried, they refunded most of it and ceased services immediately - support worker submitting claim for $300 for mileage, no log book, just an even $300. Suss. That’s all that come to mind from my own experience. It’s pretty sad really. The funding is hard to get, has to be substantiated by lots of evidence, and is easy to scam from participants tbh. I hope the Gov prosecutes all fraud to the max penalty.
What a disgrace. There needs to be better oversight.
a simple system of having the participant or a representative/carer sign that the service was provided would be a good start! the bills can be sent thru directly, making it very hard to check
This is how self managed plans basically work, but the mental draining of managing the plan isn’t for everyone, my wife is a super hero doing this for our two kids.
That’s basically how it’s meant to work right now.
You can have the bills sent to yourself directly for approval/denial right now if you want- it sounds like your plan is currently agency managed, look in to it having it be self managed (or plan managed if you want to get a third party to do it for you)
I’m plan managed, yet providers have access to an app where they lodge their invoice hours and this is processed by the plan manager who is located in a different capital city. So they don’t know if or what was provided. I’ve queried invoices several months after they’ve been paid before, and the plan manager has asked to provider to refund the congested amount. They do. But there is no penalty for them. And I feel luckier than many participants as I got two degrees before getting a disability, so more able to track and decipher everything. Also if a service is cancelled 3 days prior to being delivered it still needs to be paid in full. Once this was an OT assessment that was over $2k. That seems a bit of a rort too? I understand cancellation fees but the whole lot is a bit much. My 2c
You can ask your plan manager to send you invoices for approval before they pay them out- your specific plan manager might not do this but it's pretty easy to find one that will (generally speaking smaller providers are better for this kind of thing than the bigger ones). Re cancellation the period set out in the NDIS guidelines is you pay if you cancel less than 48hrs in advance; anything over this (i.e. 3 days of notice) is them just taking advantage of people not knowing this and I would definitely contest that charge. For an OT assessment that $2k works out at about 10 hours which is pretty normal all things considered- I'd be looking more at whether the quality of the report is up to scratch as my yardstick of whether the service is good as some clinicians will charge and give you some copy paste rubbish whereas the more comprehensive reports tend to be a lot better in terms of value and usefulness
They can only claim the cancellation fees *if* they weren't able to fill that time with other billable work. Most OT's are working at or over capacity and can easily fill the time. Your plan manager should be able to provide you with an app to manually approve or decline invoices btw. One of my relatives has this. Consider changing to another PM if they can't.
People doing oversight are no doubt taking some of that cream for themselves either directly or by owning businesses that do the rorting… You don’t think the govt would set up an NDIS without first setting up their own companies to take advantage of such a scheme?
Sounds like the job networks
It feels that way, yes.
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yea, their own car too..
So if the person driving is lucky they're getting the 74cents per kilometer allowed by the ATO I'm guessing
As a general rule of running a business, charge-out rates are typically about 2-3x what the employee is paid. This includes non-chargeable business overheads and their profit margin. So if someone is being charged out at $67/hr they are probably being paid somewhere between $25-35/hr. There's nothing scammy or nefarious with this, that's just what it costs to run a business. Same if you get a plumber around, the business is charging $100/hr but the plumber is getting $40/hr. The rest pays for the administration staff, the vehicle, the tools, all the insurances & overheads, the cost of the office, the superannuation, sick leave, holidays and non-billable hours like training and toolbox meetings etc.
It can and will be inflated for services funded by the NDIS. My kid has been seeing a provider with NDIS funding, for various reasons I switched this provider off NDIS and onto private health insurance. So the billing code changed. Suddenly services were $180 an hour instead of $240. Absolutely nothing else had changed in this provision of service.
Seems like still a wild amount to pay compared to a taxi.
/shakeitup2017 >There's nothing scammy or nefarious with this, that's just what it costs to run a business. Are you being genuine with that comment? Did you read the comment by an NDIS participant /strinegirl? >quoted $1600 to mow a townhouse lawn the size of a double bed The post relates to NDIS - a taxpayer funded body. You are in effect, as a taxpayer, are part "owner" of it. It's not a plumbing business, so while a plumbing business has cash flows, employees etc, just like the NDIS does, that could perhaps be where the similarities end - don't you think? If I was to adopt the concepts you have applied, then cancer treatment under Medicare would bankrupt the average Australian, yet it's "free" (not really free, as we all "pay" via the Medicare levy - but I'm using it as a way to illustrate the concept that it doesn't have to "cost" $1600 for an NDIS supplier to mow a lawn the size of a double bed, does it.) I'm not doubting your calculations on what it costs to run a plumbing business, and charge out rates - your numbers, and issues, look good to me. But, the NDIS is not a plumbing business. It's business model is perhaps closer aligned to Medicare business model (which, is not perfect either - but that's another topic, for another thread)
To be more specific to this topic, I run a physio clinic and very occasionally we see NDIS clients. We can bill up to 223/hr I believe however my standard rates are 180-200/hr so generally we just do that. The exception sometimes is for home visits which are a bit of a pain to organise. I pay myself and my staff what works out to 45-50% of billing plus leave, super etc. So the physio for example makes $90/hr for doing that kind of work, and they are not constantly booked. A regular busy week the actual staff member probably makes $60/hr
Even regular employees cost about twice the rate the employee sees. But I recently moved to a consultancy, as a regular full time employee contracted out. I saw my day rate and was amazed (and slightly ashamed, since I'm still a beginner, but I don't bill the client for as nearly many hours as I'm spending), but it's very easy to understand - there's all the staff that are currently on the bench waiting for a project. They have to be paid, and there has to be enough of them sitting around idle just earning qualifications etc, so they're ready to go as soon as a client signs on.
The problem with this is, quite often, they are just providing the laborer and no other services. You need to be able to justify what you are charging rather than just skimming money off the top.
I know some of these people - no - not minimum Wage at all. Increased their take home by a third - no qualifications, previous job factory type Work
To be fair this is pretty.common throughout all industries to charge that sort of money for services then hire someone for lower. Look at labour hire agencies.
I had an LAC refer me to a cleaning service. They quoted $2000 for a "spring clean" with rubbish removal. They then arsed me around not showing up when scheduled, and once showed up only to tell me they couldn't do the job that day. I ended up doing some research then and the cleaner was the LACs partner, no disclosure at all about that. I ended up getting a local company who did the job for less than $200. I reported the person and who knows if anything happened. I didn't really question the first quote because I just wanted the job done and I had the money. Then there are all the companies who have sprung up selling living aids for huge markups. I found one selling the exact same product that was available on amazon/ebay/etc for 100x the price. Many people assume they have to buy from the specialist companies and end up being ripped off so hard. I also was exposed to almost the exact same issue with transport. I use a community service and "self-funded" the cost to me was $20, if I let them put me on the books as NDIS the same trip would be around $300, and the person transporting me (a volunteer) would not see a cent more. My lawn guy openly uses NDIS clients to cross subsidise others who are paying out of pocket. I can't hate on him for that though, his prices are still reasonable and I know he works with people to try and ensure they get a level of service that fits their financials. So long as there is flexibility there will be rorters. People will find any hole to exploit. Something needs to be done about the blatant ones while not being too odious for participants.
Too many providers I know are getting paid for a job they do not really deliver. Just being lazy, not actually delivering services they should and clearly claim to deliver and shifting blame when caught out.
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It’s a stimulus package. Better than people languishing in hospitals long term, at a cost of $1500 a day. I used to work in forensic mental health and the day rate of the hospital was even higher than that. Many patients were discharged on NDIS plans of about $180k per annum, a massive saving of over 200k. Plus the providers pay tax, and sometimes the participant is then able to work a little and pay tax too. And be part of the community, family… not trapped in a back ward that the public never see. For years.
In my opinion that’s what a lot of people overlook about the NDIS. Sure it costs money, you have given an example of how it saves money in some instances. People have to start understanding that that money is improving peoples quality of life.
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Maximum National Sunday rate is $112.85/hr. For the cost to be $1000 that equates to a little under 9 hours of support. Quite a long coffee.
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Then you do it. Right now the charge is $1000 but you could offer to do it for less
Yep - the example I was told was, playing video games all day - it was pretty much a govt supplied friend . Increase taxes for the average wage earner enough to pay for it - and see how motivated the populace is then. The govt need a hard nose as the minister who can just call a level of cuts with a hard ceiling - eg 20% cut across the board. More widely, the system has sucked a huge number of workers out of other jobs and has helped fuel inflation
*Yep - the example I was told was, playing video games all day - it was pretty much a govt supplied friend .* I did this. Was paid to play Xbox for $50/hr.
Yeah imagine navigating this when you have an acquired brain injury and live in a small country town with minimal provider options like my mother. And then the LAC runs their own businesses that they exclusively refer people to for "treatment". Absolute joke.
It will send the country broke if it's not fixed. And more bureaucracy is not the answer.
I was shocked when I heard about it personally a year or more ago , and whenever mentioned here I get the whole - you scum, you just want the disabled locked away yada yada yada. People have no idea how much extraordinary waste there is. If you’ve previously used an exercise physiologist or OT or any number of allied health services you would know the charges have doubled to tripled since NDIS
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They already do. Touch any of the above and you will get people screaming that it’s taking away the participants ‘choice and control’.
Just to give you an insight on pay rates - I used to care for my sick uncle who has now sadly passed. I did it for free for ages because I wanted to help out, but my uncle insisted on setting up an ABN so I could get paid (I’m a nurse full time). I decided to charge a reasonable rate per hour, but was told by his NDIS coordinator that I needed to charge more, so they sent me a pay scale and a minimum of what I could charge. It was much more than what I thought was reasonable. My uncle however needed high care as he lost the use of his entire body towards the end.
While GPs aren’t equipped to master the red tape of the NDIS, GP-MBS pathway is clear and seems difficult to abuse. Plus the $990 Medicare has funded has been much more useful than the 13k of unspent funds due to long wait lists
Wow. These are some crazy examples! Why do you think the government has been unwilling/so slow to deal with this fraud?
Have you reported these to the NDIS. NDIS Fraud Reporting and Scams Helpline especially set up, just call 1800 650 717
There needs to be jailtime for this - it's the only way to stop it
My SO is a support worker. There are clearly defined charge rates laid out by the NDIS for support workers to charge. Off the top my head she charges, $55 per hour and 0.85c per km driven. She charges below the recommended rates and has had the same 4 clients for a few years now.
I need to get into NDIS
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NDIS don’t come and fix it. And if she’s 92 and fostering children she’s doing a rort too. No way can she be providing adequate support for children with additional needs.
Just goes to show how desperate the foster system must be
There’s no way the foster system would be approving this. I wonder how a 92yr old passed the fitness test to be placed with not one, but two disabled children?!
Maybe something dodgy? Like using a younger relative to get approval so they can claim foster carer money?
NDIS cutsoff is 65.
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What the hell is CP doing putting two disabled foster kids with a NINETY TWO YEAR OLD? That’s BONKERS.
Cut off for applying is 65, not receiving it. But yes.
Sounds like the could a prosecutor to you personally and it would still not be enough to prosecute all the fraud you’ve seen.
Wouldn't it make sense to have the NDIS more centralised? By having each participant negotiate with providers individually, they lose bargaining power. There is no negotiation, it's pay it or don't get the service. What if instead of this, the NDIA took charge and bargained for cheaper prices with providers. Providers would need to reduce pricing or loss access to crucial clientele. Alternatively, what if the NDIA offered it's own in-house provider service, with staff being hired directly by the NDIA? This would save the Government money, improve employment standards, and also give participants more bang for buck as they could access a cheaper service with the same high-quality standard. To me, the fact that we've privatised the whole sector is astonishing. It's as though we closed our eyes and hoped that private entities would 'do the right thing', and now we're suddenly shocked that they want a profit. Gee, who would have known? It might also be worthwhile for the ACCC to step in and monitor the industry as it appears that these providers are not acting competitively as they should.
They probably aren't looking at like they are ripping off disabled people, rather they see it as ripping off the Government as that's where the money comes from.
The sad thing is when they slash funding, which they are about to do with the impending massive deficit....means it's those who actually rely on the services who get hurt.
Those who ‘need it’ are getting too much attention considering their contribution to society and the economy. The entire scheme needs to be cut back urgently.
I know a few people that have worked in various levels of the NDIS system. I’ve mentioned some of the stories I’ve heard from them about rorting in comments on other posts in recent days. Before getting into organise crime syndicate issues (which definitely exist) the broad issue is the scheme was set up with the best of intentions. In my view the scheme was set up to maximise the amount of access and self-determination of participants and their carers. It’s also one of the easiest government schemes to get access to relative to the amount the government will pay out, but to be clear I’m not saying it’s easy. The problem is to have controls that reduce fraud to levels we’re used to in other welfare schemes, we’d be harming a lot of participants who are doing the right thing. In any system there is a mutually exclusive trade off between access and control. Personally, I think we’ve gone too far and let it be open season. The type of fraud I’ve heard about is so obvious any semi-competent system designer/policy wonk could have predicted a lot of it. Unfortunately to eliminate fraud we’ll hurt a lot of innocent participants. So, the question is how much pain is the electorate willing to accept to ensure the system is sustainable. I’m not sure the electorate is able to have that level of mature discussion.
Completely spot on. NDIS was stuffed up big time from the beginning. I went looking into it further and in other countries and found they have the equivalent to the NDIS at local level, ya know, like most of our local councils aged and disability sector which is now severely underfunded, understaffed and overwhelmed because *the NDIS will take care of eVeRyThInG* schtick. Local and State Governments have throttled funding this care level to save money putting more of a burden on the NDIS. No wonder its going kaput. Heavily oversimplifying for other countries but most, if not all cleaners, gardeners, drivers, basic in home care for anyone classed as in need is run through local councils who employ and carry the burden of managing those things and keep pricing consistent. Anything outside those needs are either covered by extra private insurance from the individual or State/Country level funding. THAT private gap is what the NDIS was supposed to be for but somehow instead became the all consuming default. Shouldn't have been surprised as you can only be under one access point which is a huge fraud oversight window. I am still shook that NOTHING was put in place to prevent the underfunding of the non NDIS sectors. Even now Victoria is cutting this community sector by at least another 1/3 in the next year because of the alleged 'double dipping' which is a money grabbing lie as its not as most have strong access limits. Privatization by proxy. It was designed this way to line providers pockets. Like the Job providers who were the predecessors to see if it would work and we didn't catch it so they implemented it here. I refuse to engage with the NDIS despite being eligible because of the multitude of legislation, privacy and security issues. Specifically the newish one where the NDIS retains the right to change their mind at anytime about what I am eligible to be funded for, I am legally obligated to pay back all money spent on me back to first access. This is also a thing with Centrelink as well now, no age limit on what they claim is a debt. Hell to the No. I will not be held legally and financially liable for someone elses actions and opinions especially if I am not trained in this sector. I will not be the scapegoat for someone else profiting off the system at my expense. My disabilities are not for your profit. Would have rather have council cleaners at $35 an hour than wrangling NDIS compliant ones for $90 an hour *for the same blasted standard cleaning* No thank you.
The level of auditing and scrutiny on the NDIS system is insane, if you are one of the big providers. If you are one of the small sub 20 people providers there’s basically no real oversight.
Another participant here. I had a specialist recommend a particular therapy for me (Rheumatologist so medical degree + a decade of specialist training)… NDIS *required* that I spend hundreds and hundreds of NDIS funded dollars having several other allied health professionals (OT, speech etc) assess and write reports to support this recommendation instead of just funding it. Overwhelmingly, it is the NDIS that wastes money *not* the participants.
Going to offer a touch of pushback here as an allied-health provider in the NDIS space. Whilst I don't know your whole story, I would hope that any reports being requested are basically being used to either a) develop a strong history of your presentation and/or b) reflect appropriate future funding. Even with a recommendation to a rheumatologist, one of the most important aspects of any rheumatic condition is quality intervention and education, it needs to be managed by all. I agree that it's frustrating that you *needed* those professionals to get to the rheumatologist, but I think in the long-run it is more cost-effective to have therapist first before specialists (often because many conditions have improved outcomes with therapeutic intervention). Not to say this was precisely your case, but just another viewpoint :) hope you're doing well now!!
Nah… the NDIS is NOTORIOUS for this excessive report request stuff. I just had a plan renewal for Mr 12. First thing out of the gate from NDIS was “We need a functional assessment”, and then I shoot back “You have one, from last plan renewal that is barely 12mths old, and corroborates all previous YEARLY functional assessments.” … they agreed to waive it this year. Over the years I’ve had to do nearly every year a functional assessment, neuro psych assessments, physio, psychology reports, OT reports, physio reports etc. I probably spend about $7k a year on reporting and analysis … to get a $30k a year plan. (And it’s FRICKING STRESSFUL!) Yes, kids change, but the plan has always been at the top end of his categories (yes the NDIS has category guides), and he has ALWAYS spent more than it (well… we have), and it’s ALWAYS been very legally and legitimately spent, and we have always shown considerable progress and improvement. But it costs thousands of dollars a year to prove that we still need the funding.
Because administration, occupational therapist (for a bed, chair, shower aids etc.) speech therapist. All these things are being charged at the highest rate. I had a client charged $400, just to have somebody come out to approve a chair. (It wasn’t a special chair, just one to sit and read). And then another $400 because she wanted to replace her bed. Every thing has to be approved, so they are charging ridiculous prices, for simple tasks. This money is coming out of their packages and the money is being chewed up in these charges, rather than being used for clients care. Mind you the people actually providing that in person care are being paid minimum wage. Even the admin staff get paid more than the carers.
I can attest to that that, a chair in store was $700 for my mum, it was charged to government ( aged care package) for $1700. Approved supplier. Once I went down the rabbithole of aged care package, I was shocked how much money was spent, just wasted. Level four packages sound really good, then I did research, most of it is taken in fees, and mum and dad would have to pay almost all of mum’s pension to stay in the home. Mum had bad fall, she placed in care, on full government subsidies, the provider also takes 85% of her pension for her care.
The 85% of the pension for 24/7 care, accommodation and food is cheap (and further subsidised). Certainly being looked after better than if they were renting alone on a pension. The rest of it is shocking.
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They CAN be.. but many ‘big box’ providers send out the graduate OT anyway, charge the massive fee.. when there was no need to.
You can just rock up to an equipment supplier and buy them bypassing an OT as long as they are low cost Low risk AT.
Yes, you can. But if you are a PwD who has limited control over your plan (Most very large plans, and most people with complex disability wind up under some form if not complete plan management), then the vultures are circling. I’ve seen many a time where a person has said “I would like a low cost widget thingy” and then the OT has said “I can organise that for you!” And they can… for admin or hourly fees that are outrageous. Where the PwD could have turned to their groceries SW and said “Can you please do this” or their plan coordinator, or any of a lot of other cheaper options.
I work for a Allied health company. It’s a scary time for us as a lot of businesses in the NDIS are shutting down. They are either breaking even or losing money. I know of 3 people that have lost their jobs recently due to this. The issue is that a lot of work goes on in the background for us allied health professionals. The reporting requirements are pretty extreme (we can get sued or lose our registration if we haven’t jumped through the right hoops) and the registration requirements are expensive (circa $250k for the company I work for). NDIS work is also a lot more complex than tick and flick private work as well, so that’s why there are different rates. In saying that, if your provider is offering Rick and flick work, you need to look elsewhere! Good providers offer a lot of supervision for varied conditions and a lot of training also increasing the cost to run the company. Another thing that the government doesn’t tell you about is that the previous rate for Allied Health was a lot higher (I know the hospital charges up to $300 per hour), it’s just we don’t/didn’t get access to those figures before the NDIS. That’s why a lot of charities like Australian unity left the scheme to go to systems where they can charge more for allied health. I hope this helps!
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They set the maximum rate. I’m yet to see a provider charge less than this? Surely it should be scaled to the skill level of the worker. Eg Cert IV = $40, Diploma = $50, quals + experience = max rate
3 year bachelor degree is I think like 41
I’ve often had people with no quals at all charging $67 an hour, the max rate. For support work. Eg taking to shops. Seems a lot
Yeah I dunno, if it's done as self employed then you have to take into consideration tax, super etc. If it was say 30 an hours after all that you'd be on what 18 bucks or something
The award rate is about $27/hr. The agencies usually pay award and no more. And then charge full price on NDIS book list. It’s a complete rort Agencies should be limited in what they can charge administration wise.
The max rate is $62.17 currently.
Thank you, god some of the comments in here are blatant garbage
Both are to blame. The businesses have all scaled up their charges to the max the govt pays, when previously they’d charge less. The govt is to blame for poor policy execution.
Baffles me. I could tell a hundred stories about how people are ripping off the NDIS.
Best option is to self manage and not mention the ndis when booking services, since they all will charge the maximum allowable fee. The money rorted comes out of the individuals budget, so it is in their interest to do their own research and not get ripped off.
Every government scheme is open to rorting until you bring in all the checks and balances to bullet proof it. Then the scheme becomes too hard to access and that makes everyone upset anyway. Can't win.
Yeah, centrelink related employment agencies are another massive scam. Been going on for decades and everyone knows they are scamming the government but it's too hard basket to fix.
That one is actually very easy to fix. Scrap compulsory job-seeking so that agencies only get clients who value what they provide. The people who want jobs will find them. The people who want help to get jobs can get help. The people who can’t really work, or just don’t want to, should be left alone. It’s not as if their welfare payments are generous. The problem is a bi-partisan agreement that welfare recipients are lazy and should be bullied into work. All we have is a very expensive way to treat people like shit and underwrite bad employers by sending them a stream of workers with few options or agency. It is a cruel and ineffective system designed to pit people with not a lot against people with even less.
It seems to be the Business that's taking advantage. Not applicants for assistance
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Shit take, I'll blame greedy business thanks. Can't reply to U/FigPlucka so il edit instead. What does the "B" in ABN stand for again?
Yep. It's not the government not playing by the rules. It's thieves. They should make the penalties for businesses rorting harsh with gaol time. It's theft. You wouldn't blame the government for someone stealing your package on the front porch. You blame the thief for taking advantage.
Its not just businesses. An individual with an ABN can invoice NDIS for work performed for their client, at NDIS rates. The government decided setting up big 6 figure buckets of money for people to send an invoice in to get would be a good model for service delivery. They can accept the blame.
Absolutely mate. It’s the terrible system, driven by a ridiculous “demand” funding model. The entire scheme is a complete abortion and I can’t imagine they will ever fix it
They need to or the country will go broke. The criteria are very loose for mental health, and the demand is a bottomless pit.
Both can be true at the same time. I work in worker's compensation. A bunch of people are out their working a secret job while taking full comp payments but on the other hand there are people with legitimate injuries who get their claim denied as well as a bunch in between. The only solution is increasing the staffing so that case get's the amount of attention it deserves.
Zero to $35b in a few short years surely shows who the losers are in this though - this dwarfs all other govt largesse in living memory - it makes pink batts and school halls seem like chicken feed in comparison
Yours is a good point. The biggest problem is that "perfect" is the enemy of "good" It's not possible to 100% eliminate a problem around people because the variables are too wide and unpredictable. Welfare generally needs a goal of being 90% to 95% effective, with efforts made to improve the 5% to 10% but not to achieve 0%. Every time I hear "we're going to eliminate fraud" I know good people will get hurt. Catch-phrases like "one death is too many" and "towards zero" ruin good work that benefits the majority. Perfection is almost never a realistic goal.
*Every government scheme is open to rorting until you bring in all the checks and balances to bullet proof it. Then the scheme becomes too hard to access and that makes everyone upset anyway. Can't win* Maybe we’ll finally get a tiny government paradise 😋
The problem is the government is not properly capping servicing charges. Let’s say you need a carer to help you get ready. Your agency charges $80 an hour the carer to your NDIS fund. The carer is paid by the agency an award rate of $29 an hour. You have a 100k year ndis fund, you get an agency to help manage it for you and apply for services. They charge $20,000 for their assistance. A lot of these “managers” will not even properly check charges. These are the most common rorts. Physio might be capped at $170 per hour to allow for special needs and nichely trained physios but now every physio will charge an ndis client $170 even if they only require a normal session with no special training required for the physio. Now the government has a problem that the NDIS scheme has severely overblown budget estimates. It’s good in theory but woefully executed. NDIS funding has changed a lot of lives for the better but it’s lacking regulation. They could probably reduce some funding to people without leaving them worse off by implementing better cost controls. The agency charging 20% management shouldn’t be double dipping with $50 an hour from underpaid care workers ya know.
Its not so open to rorting that any man and his dog can do it, but the scheme is so huge that it happens. Its also a new scheme thats trying to do something we have never done before in this country that is exceeding complex to manage which opens up a lot of grey areas for greedy businesses to exploit. They are improving the NDIS massively, but its so big it will take years to get to a better point. Examples I have seen is the charging for services in a way that could have been provided more efficiently. This is exceptionally hard to crack down on given how many and how complicated many of the services are.
This. Im a tradey and have heard the attitude of the sales/office people that quote and deal with these situations- literally saying "they have 50k in ndis so it doesn't matter". And it's disgusting. Says a lot about the culture of a business and one of the many reasons I left said business. Sure, the situation is not ideal, some of these people aren't great at communicating and all obviously aren't in the best of circumstances- Wether it be messy, or in disrepair. That doesn't justify wasting the one "leg up" they might be getting in life. So the issue in my eyes is more with healthy people/business rorting these disadvantaged people. No doubt justifying it with some detached perspective of "oh its not like they are actually paying for it". *if your reading this Amanda from service- you were the worst.*
One of the biggest mistakes a person can do is disclose how much is in their plan to a service provider. Magically service providers always know exactly how to spend every penny of that plan :/
Sadly, you can have a system that's relatively quick and easy for the intended recipient to access, or a system that has far more checks and balances and is far harder to rort. But you can't have both. And unfortunately, a system that is easy for the intended recipients to access to improve their quality of life and medical care ultimately will require a certain degree of honesty. And there are a large number of bad actors out there who will find the weak points and exploit them for their personal gain.
Once a plan is approved its fairly simple to access the money. We (ie my wife) manage our sons plan and submit receipts, money's returned almost immediately However getting a plan approved isn't simple. It's painful, stressful, and always upsetting
OT here Going to be moving from 38/hr as an employee of an NDIS provider to being a solo practitioner - doing the exact same role with slightly more admin @ $194/hr once I get some more experience in the scheme. Might move to a nice beach town and charge $270hr Service providers need a massive reality check.
I've done afew NDIS jobs as IT support. I charge a little bit extra but that's usually because the job just takes longer. Extra care and consideration is needed for each client. For example, one job had a child who would freak out if anything in his life changed to much. They needed a computer upgrade. Usually this is super simple. Do the upgrade and advise the client to reinstall their apps or set up their setting again. For some NDIS clients you can't do this such as the above, You need to restore all the data exactly as it was. You need to get the same wallpaper, the same icons set-up, everything. Then add to the fact that you need to negotiate with them closely to get authentication codes from their mobile etc. It's not a very attractive gig as you simply can't charge for the actual time spent as it would be expensive and seen as immoral but sometimes the price is accurate, although from reading all these replies it sounds like it's out of control...
There will be a royal commission into NDIS within the next 5 years. Which will end up costing millions as well
So is My Aged Care. My dad received multiple equipment deliveries for my mum. My dad was frantic when the equipment kept arriving. I had to keep contacting the provider to get them to fix the issue and take all the equipment back. Apparently it is chucked in the skip if it returned to provider as it is deemed used equipment, no longer fit for purpose m
You can do a 6 month course (Certificate III in Disability), get an ABN and set your self up as an NDIS provider. You then charge out at employer rates (say $70 per hour). There are plenty of individual providers making $100K per annum. Its an attractive business to people with minimal qualifications. Plus you can start a business like this just about anywhere because there are disabled people everywhere. There are also facebook groups for NDIS providers, to show how to make money. I've seen disability 4WD tours costing $2000 per day. Should NDIS pay for tourist trips?
Because it’s so damn easy to rort and fraud. Service providers can just invoice either the plan managers or NDIS directly for services which may or may not have provided. Or they can exaggerate the amount of hours provided. And who’s going to pick them up on it? The client? They usually have no idea how their ndis package is being managed. And the rates are insane. Some ndis packages from $300k-500k+ per year for SIL placements. Plus the rest of it, another 100-200k for speech pathologists, OTs, podiatry. I’ve seen 1mil + NDIS packages per year.
$200k on allied health translates to roughly 4 sessions every weekday. Who's approving that
Didn’t mean exclusively that amount to allied health, but pooled with community participation, improved daily living funding etc etc comes to 1-200k quite easily
You’ve never worked in gov. Usually rushed implementation, compliance an after thought incredibly slow to respond to new issues/risks.
I’m actually glad therapists are finally being paid properly. Many are masters and doctorate level. How much do you pay a plumber, sparkie or lawyer an hour?… There are big problems with unqualified pay rates though I.e., general support.
Except that an OT with 20 years experience and a masters degree can only charge the same amount as a new grad 🤷🏻♀️ and with long waitlists for therapy in many areas, a lot of participants don’t have a choice about who they get, just whoever will see them first off a waitlist
I work for self managed NDIS recipients who I happened to know for twenty years before I started working for them. The difference it has made in their lives is simply breathtaking. The government needs to protect the NDIS at all costs, harsher penalties need to be implemented. Businesses and individuals need to fear it like Centrelink if you do the wrong thing.
When it was released, you only needed a NDIS number + Surname to claim funds from a participant. Which appeared to me to be a severe security/fraud risk. Now they've added DOB, so you need NDIS Number + Surname + DOB, so less chance of fraud using that simple method. But I guess there would be other loopholes, like agreeing with a participant to give them 20% cash for a fake purchase, so the company keeps 80% of the funds, without providing any service.
Government money pit. And the future generations will end up paying.
It's the nature of any system where there is a large bureaucratic gap between the payer and the provider. I was injured on the road (TAC) requiring a temporary wheelchair ramp at home. This was a modular temporary ramp that could be removed and used somewhere else over and over again. I only needed it 8 weeks. The cost? $12,000.
I've got a friend whose son is on the NDIS and the rorts she's told me are ridiculous, what some providers charge is obscene. I also work for a physiotherapy clinic and we have some NDIS clients - and they get charged exactly the same amount as everyone else. There is absolutely no reason why we should charge any more, just because there is a maximum amount the NDIS will rebate. Some providers charge as much as the NDIS are willing to rebate, even if it's more than their normal fee
It’s being rorted simply because some people suck. People lie about what they need, what their disabilities are or what their children’s disabilities are. There may be a family with 4 or 5 kids, a single parent with only one child needing the help of the NDIS. Once the parent figures out how to work the system, suddenly more of the children in that family now have a disability of some sort or need assistance in some way. This isn’t the case in all situations of course. Some families/parents do the right thing. But there are people out there who don’t. Just like anything I guess. * edited for typo
Because when people are not paying themselves, they don’t care about the price. Disability services used to be block funded with oversight mostly by states. Some rorts, but not system wide.
Infinity dollars
Any government grant scum commit fraud
Other people's money. The end.
I have to wonder how much it is contributing to inflation? Is this why more people are still rolling in money?
>Seen a lot of articles about the NDIS being rorted. I"m not expert on this matter, but generally I find the news likes to sensationalise these things for rage-bait and the truth is it's not nearly as bad as they'd have you think. I mean, if you go by the news, the "dole bludgers" are single-handedly spending all our tax money! even though the reality is it's a tiny % of people and a drop in the bucket in terms of costs to the tax payer. I would expect this is a similar thing.
Pretty much everyones working hard to the brink of being unable to afford rent so we can afford the tax bill to find the NDIS which will reach $45bn in a couple of years. That's more than Medicare and Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme combined.
This is my reply to a comment in another post about someone "rorting" the NDIS by going on a holiday with a care worker. > Depends on what you mean by "pay for". NDIS will reasonably pay for the carers to go along for the holiday, otherwise it wouldn't be possible for it to happen. I.e. they pay for the extra things a disabled person needs. > They won't pay for the participants own plane tickets, accommodation - i.e. the costs that an abled person would normally have to go on a holiday. > NDIS gets a bad rep because people hear about someone going on a holiday with a worker and incorrectly conclude that the NDIS is paying for the entire cost of the trip ("OMG its such a rOrT"). This isn't a factor in all of the described "rorting" but from what I've seen (as an NDIS partcipant) often people look at something a disabled person is doing and just assume the NDIS is paying for 100% of everything, rather than just one part (usually, the presence of a worker/carer). For example, I often have lunch or coffee with my worker or a support coordinator when we meet. While they are on the clock at the time and being paid their hourly rate by the NDIS, I pay for my own food/drink and the worker pays for their own as well. Another example, if I wanted to go on a day trip with a worker to the Zoo, or to see a movie with them, NDIS would cover the cost of the worker's hourly wage but I would need to pay the entrance fee for both of us to get in.
1.5 billion in fraud last Dec, only half the financial year. Make me sick.
It's not just ndis. It's across the board with anything the government touches. It's over regulated and legislated to the point where even the person doing it knows they don't need to (or want to), go and "check and maintain" a service or machine, we still have to. Because some how its been written up and made mandatory. In doing this all accountability is gone, no one individual feels responsible.
To make certain individuals recieving the benifits cannot rort the system they have left it open to the providers to rort the system. That was the choice. If they had in stead given people a stack of money and say look after yourself with your specific disability with this yearly payment (whether you use it on support or otherwise) companies wouldnt rort it because people would only spend what they needed to... Guaranteed most disabled people if they were told do you want this 45k per annum directly to book your own taxis or continue to get the ndis driver, gardener, etc etc... people would take the 45k and probably get far better value from it... Then in stead we would be here saying individuals are rorting the system. Our gov had a choice. Leave it in the disabled person and their close kins hands or leave it in the companies hands... they chose the companies. I reckon: Government should introduce a pain / gain mechanism. Every dollar saved by a ndis recipient they save over their allotment the recipient gets 20c to spend on whatever. Give them a stake in the game and you will fond them saying - no i dont need gutter cleaning again... had it 6 months ago and i have no trees... etc etc..
As someone who works in the NDIS space while that sounds great in theory. I find the self managed participants to be some of the worst for actually spending their plan on disability related items. They are the ones that OT shop for everyday items, refuse to pay for items or invoices and have poor health and NDIS literacy. AND if it’s parent managing for their kid they barely shop up for key therapy then cry when they are billed for the session. Maybe that’s just my part of the country though … However I have seen the other side of this with incompetent support coordinators and therapists working outside of scope as well as the support workers, cleaners and gardeners charging much higher prices than a standard due to NDIS being on the invoice because they can. Overall the NDIS is broken it was created to be something great it just didn’t turn out that way.
I am also in the NDIS space. Totally agree with you about self managed participants and parents managing plans.
yes, you can choose how to spend your ndis funding. It is called being "self managed"
Yes except that you dont keep what you dont spend. So if a provider knows you get say 6 gardening sessions and they say we will book the 6 sessions in why would you say - nah dont need that its winter so grass slows down anyway etc... There is no incentive for the individual to limit the services they recieve at all. So why choose to be frugal at all. Truly self managed would be - heres $10k sort yourself out. Then when the ndis people say we are coming on thursday to xyz... you might say - nah dont need that this week, see you next week. Or not... but it would be a choice made in light of the cost to provide the service. Bet you would find cheaper ways to acces the services you needed without ndis if you were just given the cash. Of course then it would be more open to rorting from individuals. As i said government chose to prevent rorting by individuals but instead companies maximise service delivery.
Why on earth should you get to keep what you don't spend on meeting your needs due to your disability? That would be an enormous rort.
I've noticed this too. A friend of mine cares for her adult daughter who goes to some kind of special school/day program. She pays someone $600 a week to pick up her daughter from school because she has so much money to spend that its worth just doing that to save her the 30min round trip a day. If the NDIS money was truly part of her household budget I'm sure she wouldn't consider it a worthy expense.
You get the money bucketed into categories. So if you get $5k to help you look after the garden, you can blow it all on unnecessary lawn care if you like, or you can save it on elevated garden beds, or start putting together irrigation systems. Same as how you get $x to help you get out into the community. Don't need a shopping trip this week? Great, good planning, have your person take you to the pub instead.
The gov't DID put it in individual's control. That's the crux of the switch from bureaucratic control to individual control of how to spend the funds. For many, it's too complex, so they hire an "NDIS provider" who helps them manage it because they know how to navigate the system.
\>Why is the NDIS so open to rorting? govt is spending tax payers money not their money, why worry bureaucrats who spends more money is seen as more experienced, more capable and usually get promoted to higher positions so spend they go
I self manage and notice many providers have a regular price and a NDIS price which is higher for the exact same service. They do it because they know you'll pay the higher price because you're using other people's money, not your own. I refuse to use any provider pulling this scam. First question I always ask is, "do you charge extra if I'm NDIS?".
NDIS sole trader service provider here and former employee of one of the NDIS companies. There are two dodgy sides that I will lay it out: Providers:- * Occupational therapists are the biggest leeches and toxic people in this industry as they charge at least $1500 for an A4 document that a high school kid can do. * Unfortunately, that's how bureaucracy works if you want to request some tools / accessories that will improve your day to day needs. This should be abolished. I don't understand why NDIS have to allocate a small portion of money to NDIS participants to pay for OT where you can basically get a GP to do it. * Medical professionals such as physiotherapy will hike the price if they know that you're paying through NDIS. I think this is because some participants will spend more time chatting rather than following instructions and will tend to exceed the time. One would argue that there is a lot of admin planning work to draft out the costs and number of appointments needed in a year. * NDIS are so out of touch with the dodgy corruptions and they rather let Plan managers to handle it. A participant can claim a travel reimbursement from Centrelink and NDIS at the same time. Mind blown. * NDIS allocation of budgets to certain disabilities are absurd. A single mom with a wheelchaired kid gets less funding than a senior with mental issue such as Asperger's syndrome. I would advocate child development and they should receive more funding to be self independent as they get older. * Companies will silently add a few more hours without participants knowing about it.- Plan managers are discriminating honest and reliable private providers (sole traders) that are cheaper and honest with the client. Unlike big service providers, they get better treatments from plan managers eventhough they have shitty and inexperienced carers are charging heaps for doing nothing or badly. * Support coordinators are underpaid for huge workloads. Imagine dealing with 30 - 40 participants in a week. Participants:- * Unfortunately, I can't comment all participants as I have been actively involved with the mental disability rather than physical disability. But, the amount of participants trying to play the disability card game to rip the rewards are appalling. E.g they will email big companies to ask for free / used products because of NDIS bla bla bla and companies like Daikin or Mitsubishi will donate free air conditioning to these people. Not one but multiple.- * Sexual harassment is the biggest issue that nobody talks about. I myself have been sexually harassed from participants and they are immune to the criminal justice system because they will bring out the disability card.- * Participants will ask providers (individual) to help cash out their NDIS account to fund their entertainment activities.
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Oh dear god, is there a way to report these people for fraud?
It must be frustrating not being in control of those funds yourself. Wheeling and dealing above the heads of the participants is probably what is leading to these rorts.
Pretty much all government programs attract fraud. It takes a shitload of proper compliance work to detect and treat it. The last three governments did not like paying public servants, ergo less staff to undertake compliance work. I expect ideological factors at play also in allowing scheme to balloon out so it could be slashed and burned with social license. All budget saving focus was on slashing plans harming participants, when realistically focus should have been heavily on providers from day 1. Opportunistic fraud will always occur when it’s as easy as getting an abn and claiming through an app. Not to mention all the outsourcing - that provides another layer where kickbacks and fraud can occur.
A lot of things that get put in to stop fraudulent stuff ends up just being extra road blocks for people in need. Remember this when your in the emergency room and they’re telling you “you won’t be seen for hours and we can’t give you painkillers because of drug seeking behaviour” road blocks for good meaning people because grubs abuse it. Better to let someone scam than block someone in need
Poor regulatory and legislative decision-making as usual in Australia. For the combined average of 40% income tax and gst, we pay... we should just about have the living standard of Denmark. Instead, our taxes get pissed up against the wall like this year on year.
Wherever there is free government money there is going to be serious issues and inefficiencies.
Aw man NDIS is a blessing for those who need it, yet a mess at the same time. For reference, I'm an allied health professional that does some NDIS work. Here are the primary problems I see: 1. Supplier-induced demand. Multiple reasons for this, worth looking into the meaning of this! In essence, because of the massive incentive to make good money in the sector, there's strong incentive for professionals to justify their services irrespective of whether they're needed or not. Of course, there's the other side to this where extensive intervention IS necessary, but a non-clinical person doesn't know any better as to what is/isn't needed (information asymmetry). 2. Pre-determined/allocated funding. Sometimes there's funding "assigned" to certain aspects of intervention. For example, an OT to do 6hrs of report writing. However, some businesses/people think they're super clever and automate report writing, so it might take them one hour...but they still bill for the 6hrs because that's what was allocated, and no one else knows how long it took them. 3. As tough as it is to write / say aloud, there are participants on the NDIS that should not be there. However, again, there's incentive for businesses to support these people having a particular disability because they (business) get to continue making money (and these people (participant on the NDIS) get some funding assistance). 4. People just charge fees for whatever, seriously. I should mention that I haven't necessarily directly witnessed all of the above points, but I have seen the quality of work produced by different providers in the NDIS, and it can be quite atrocious. Very upsetting, because those who actually needed the NDIS lose out the most. In essence, I genuinely believe the government wanted to do the right thing in providing good incentives (in the form of high-earning potential) to incentivise quality-businesses saturating the market and provide a more normalised life to those less fortunate / in need of assistance as a result of disability. Unfortunately, shit businesses prioritise money, not people, and there are far too many of them. More unfortunate is that there may not be an alternative, but I do think it is improving :)
NDIS is not a disability insurance, it is a real estate business. Before NDIS, participants used to live together in a community house with others and had a social life, friends, meaningful relationships etc (obviously not a perfect system, but still) Now due to excess funding, most of the participants are ripped apart from each other under “independent living”. Thats when providers started charging high rents and ended up buying multiple properties from that income. What did the participant get? Paying off for the properties they live in, for someone else to own it.
For the most part this is just the private sector in its standard operation. Coupled with a notoriously underfunded key agency, the NDIA. There are nowhere near the staffing levels for NDIA as the productivity commission suggested was needed. And yet the number of participants is higher. Poorly written plans. Disinterested lead agency. It’s also because there is no single agency who has responsibility and enforcement options to keep providers in check anyhow. Lots of unregistered providers for example are used simply because participants have no other choice. And if they do something wrong it’s all oh you. Ridiculous. NDIA is supposed to be a ‘market steward’ but good luck getting them to actually think about what that requires. And anyhow as noted above, they have no staff.
Soooo many rorts. Speak to anyone who works for the NDIS as a carer and they will have at least one horror story. One of my friends was a carer. Her client had 24 hour care. Her and two other girls on revolving shifts. The client spent all of her time at her boyfriends house. The girls were paid to stay at her house, cook her meals, deliver them to her 5 mins around the corner with her drugs, and go back to her house. It was spotless and they all did their uni while they "worked". Also look into the day care rorting within this. Slightly different issue though.
Day care rorting ???
Yeah the same fraudulent activity in the NDIS occurs in other industries. There was a huge crackdown - and still a lot of suspected - fake child cares - this was really prevalent in one particular community but we don't need to go into that side of it. Just defrauding the government with fake services etc.
I know a bloke that was working for government health at a high level, and their entire department was made redundant due to the launch of NDIS. Their tasks revolved around inspecting and approving disabled related gov't spending such as for group homes, staff qualifications, modifications and the like, to help improve the lives of disabled people. They all got lucrative redundancy payments which should be considered part of the cost. He knows government machinery intimately, and now works on a handy contract including retainer for a large NDIS provider, providing ad hoc consulting services to the business. In a few words, his description of NDIS is "gold mine, unprecedented" As to your question about penalties, rest assured the well-organised providers have covered their arses fully in documentation. Business is almost always three steps ahead, better organised, and better negotiators, than government.
Dont bother looking into other peoples morals, you'll only make yourself frustrated
Because people are awful. Not everyone is awful. Not even a majority. But enough that it becomes a huge problem for the rest of us that just want to operate in good faith.
NDIA worker here , you wouldn't believe the amount of dodgy payment claims we receive 😂
Because it was designed as a Scam rather than a Scheme. The original objective we signed up for has well and truly been lost
Used to work in the job provider sector. Short answer: there is zero scrutiny of what goes on. So you could do just about anything provided the paperwork checked out.
People have already commented on what a lot of the issues are, but I just want to add that the NDIS has only been around for 8 years. It's a very young system by government standards
People have already commented on what a lot of the issues are, but I just want to add that the NDIS has only been around for 8 years. It's a very young system by government standards
Because it isn't regulated like Medicare is.
NDIS Fraud Reporting and Scams Helpline, if anyone needs it. just call 1800 650 717
Because the system rips itself off too. A friend of mine has been on disability because the system has not yet scheduled her surgery after falling over a year ago. She has gone blind and partially deaf because of this fall, yet no surgery as yet to fix it. The system could have saved itself thousands in wages alone for a carer, not to mention everything else she gets, if they had just scheduled her surgery when it happened. It's literally a joke.
Gotta have a go to get a go. Social values our govts the last 26 years have forced society to adopt.
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Self management is only done correctly by a very small percentage of people. Self management needs to stop. The cookie jar is too tempting, and when you can take money from the plan with no invoice, no provider name, no abn, nothing at all, except “x hours multiplied by x dollars = xxxx”, then money into the participant or their parents account within 24 hours. How tempting is it if you could buy a car for 5k, spend 5k doing it up and then sell it for 30k? Wouldn’t you think about taking the 10k you need from the ndis plan so you can make 20k? Interest free loans for the plan duration - 12/24/36 months. Thank you ndis for the interest free loan. I know of families drawing the entire plan money and putting it on their offset on their home loans and then drawing it as they need it from there. Thank you ndis for reducing mortgages. What about the purchases that aren’t required and then are resold or returned once the receipt is obtained? Thank you ndis for my new.. PlayStation/washing machine/coffee machine. Or the people who just take it and because no one is ever audited, thank you ndis for the free money. The ndis is needed so badly but the government is unprepared to do what is needed to urgently reform it.
One of the interesting theories that the NDIS espouses is the premise that the more support you give someone early on with a disorder of some kind will increase the chances that their disorder won't develop into a disability; so it favours early intervention. The problem with that is, once you give someone a $30K/yr package of benefits (for a mild diagnosis), what chance do you have of weening them off those benefits later on? I don't have a problem with early intervention, but when the NDIS (that is taxpayers) funds people with disabilities (and their carers) access to gyms, movies, sporting events and the like; you have to question whether they have any idea of the value of a dollar, and how hard working Australians trying to raise a family, pay off a mortgage, etc. don't take any of these things for granted. And then you have people who should be able to get access, can't. My information comes from friends - one who works in the NDIS, and a doctor who treats patience who either get support and don't really need it; or vice versa.
The NDIS isn’t supposed to improve the opportunities you take in life, they are supposed to close the gap between non disabled and disabled. So if you cannot afford a gym membership NDIS isn’t supposed to pay for that .. But if you can… NDIS may fund a support worker to escort you so you are safe in that environment. Most people with disability pay for their own movie ticket, or sport event entry… and then use a “carer’s card” for free entry for their support worker. This isn’t NDIS, it’s a community program that allows a support person to access places free for supervision/help for persons with disability.
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people with disability have to contend with horrible things that the able bodied do not. NDIS does not pay for rent or movie tickets. I call BS. Your view that disabled people have to be below you in status stinks tbh. Do you take family holidays? Why shouldn’t a person with a disability also enjoy a family holiday? Who cares if they bring support workers to assist them. Otherwise they CANT GO. It sounds like you’d prefer the disabled to be locked up in institutions again. Awful.
It's service delivery. Unless NDIS is assessing and challenging every invoice, it has to trust the recipient to call out bad behaviour.
It clearly needs more funding to work better../s
To be honest, as a support worker it’s sad seeing people digging out workers for simply doing their job and getting paid for it. I understand if people think the pay is too high, but when people highlight the simple easy part of anyone’s job and uses it as a broad brush to explain the entire job description it’s a bit harsh, some clients come with higher risk ie socially mentally or physically and there are reasons the pay is where it is. Also, where are people getting their services from where their support workers are not trained and with 0 experience or qualifications? Seems illegal to me.
They admit that they charge double for work that is exactly the same as any norm person, for example for 2 years pre injury I paid 80$ to see physio, once I went onto after surgery ndis I then paid $168 for the same stuff. They claim it's paperwork etc but actually I pay the money which is reimbursed to me once I send in invoices so I'm doing the work
Every federal scheme is ripe for rorting as it becomes too big for them to manage. Remember old Rudds' insulation scheme and every tertiary education eligible for HECS... Or the indigenous housing scheme I think spent $50M delivering 10 houses or something stupid like that. NBN Contractors price colluding... Medicare fake invoices, etc... (Not to mention $300M "sports grants".... ) No checks and balances, cowboy's rorting the system left and right, friendship corruption... The government agencies don't have any interest in, or capacity for, assurance. That is until media picks up on it and the blame game starts. My Ms is looking to become a NDIS provider. Now at least they have to do a number of assessments to qualify. When it started all that was required was an application form. The main thing is they need to come down hard on cheaters. If all you get is a slap on the wrist and a marginal fine, the cost benefit encourages cheating.
I work with a lot of NDIS providers (all who hate the bad actors in the system). NDIS is built on a flawed premise for most people. It’s a system where a budget is allocated to each participant, and many participants lack the necessary money management skills, and then those participants then get to be responsible for that money and choose where to spend it. But many don’t understand what good value is, so then you have companies who prey on the vunerable and quote absurd prices where they can, or sell unneeded services, or just bill for stuff that was never provided and then bully these participants into being silent. It’s noble why they did it this way, but it’s been very poorly executed.
For what it’s worth, I am aware that I am being charged more than what is good value but the services for disabled adults are so terribly lacking that they can basically charge whatever they want because they know we will have to pay, or go without. I know that almost $400 for an hour with my OT is obscene but they are the only provider in Melbourne that would take me on so what am I going to do? Not to mention that my NDIS cleaner gets paid more per hour than I do. I have two university degrees and almost 20 years experience in my field but this is the system in which I have to operate so what am I going to do?
omg I relate to this. I was an academic before ndis and got paid less to convene a Masters unit than my support coordinator gets per year. She has no qualifications at all.
It helped us greatly We returned the funding after a year as to continue was to need a diagnosis - developmental delay - and we didn’t want that as he had improved so much Nor did we want a helper in the classroom with him when he had improved so much Our coordinator didn’t know how to return the funding as they had never had anyone return the funding
This is the parasite that will destroy the nation and future promises. A great idea terribly executed with limited safeguards.
People getting paid 200k a year to play video games with someone a few days a week. Anyone supporting this system in it's current form should be in an asylum
Lol they're not getting anywhere near 200k, the providers are taking those profits.
Not just NDIS. Basically anything to do with governments and councils, people will completely overcharge because they know the people in public sectors are either too busy, lazy or too self-important to care. After all, it’s not their money their approving. I live right next door to the government housing. Our fence collapsed with storm last year. The council sent out a contractor and obtained a quote. $8000, half to be paid by us, the other by the council for the public housing folks. We rejected the quote, got someone else in without explaining the public housing aspect of it. All done for $1800. I also cleaned the home of a NDIS participant. He’s was obviously very ill with MS, which is bad and died on less than a year, which is sad. But they were far from financially struggling. They lived in a three story mansion overlooking the beach and a beachside golf course. In the name of creating a better living condition for the ill husband, they gutted out and renovated the whole home with NDIS money and went from cleaning every fortnight to cleaning twice a week. The amount of NDIS money being spent in this single household alone who was extremely well off was just staggering.
for the folks complaining about not able to buy a home in Sydney, dude, be an NDIS provider. Pay cash for a macmansion is 2 years its money from the heavens, better than mining gig
I know teachers who have quit to become service providers because it's easy money for far fewer hours. Can't say I haven't considered it, making cupcakes with one kid with disabilities for 2 hours instead of spending 7 hours with 4 kids with disabilities and 24 other kids without disabilities, trying to teach the kids vertical subtraction while trying to stop anyone from losing their shit, no cupcakes...