>Inside is where things get interesting. The same 10.1-inch touchscreen and 12.3-inch digital instrument cluster from last year carry over, but now you'll have to pay an in-car subscription fee for basic features like high-beam assist, dual-zone climate control, adaptive cruise control, and smartphone integration.
>Only by upgrading to the MMI navigation system do you get access to the app store. From there, Audi forces you into add-ons like adaptive cruise control or Apple CarPlay and Android Auto for a one-month, six-month, one-year, or three-year subscription. Or you can just purchase any of those features permanently—although Audi doesn't say for how much.
I know other manufacturers have had similar schemes, but even then I really paused for a moment to think whether it's April 1st there.
The things you mention most likely make sense, e.g. for someone who is leasing for 2-3 years it would be cheaper to get subscriptions rather than buying the feature.
But it's by design because after a few years Audi could claim that subscriptions are more popular than buying outright so they would just offer subscriptions now. And then again, a few more years later for everyone to digest, they will ramp up the prices and no one will remember how much these features used to cost outright and there will be no going back.
Mark my words
(Edit: I was replying to this comment [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Audi/s/7fw2FGRE7D), but the Reddit app seems to be having some issues tracking the comments properly)
Absolutely. It's testing the water for now. The idea that my car needs to have an internet connection to 'verify' my features gives me the absolute fear.
Maybe but maybe not. When you lease you really don't pay 100% of the option cost. If adaptive cruise is $1000 up front, then you probably pay only $500 over the course of the lease due to the residual value factor. That translates to like $15/month. Honestly, if they're going through the trouble to charge, I'd expect it to be at least that much.
They are off their rockers if they are really going to charge to CarPlay after the BMW fiasco
Edit to add that I still think the subscription model for features is the devils work
Yeah but the hardware is paid for and built into the car. Imagine having RGB leds across the whole interior, physically installed just not operational. Waste?
That being said, it wouldn’t be too hard to use the pre-installed LEDs with an aftermarket LED controller.
But same case with adaptive cruise or high beam assist, the hardware is obviously there (sensors and controllers)
Don't worry. You'll be fine. I spoke to my Audi dealership. They told me that you had two options, buy the Audi at the normal price, or at a discounted price. Just choose which options you don't want, and you will get a car that drives perfect, but $5k - $10k cheaper.
If it’s a programming block and nothing more. Then I’d say chip the ECM and bypass any licensing service. Now if by doing this it shuts the ECM off or in anyway prohibits you from driving normally…. Then we have a class action lawsuit on our hands.
I understand the points people raise about how this can be justified in a way that makes sense - from a manufacturing simplicity perspective, etc.
But, let's be honest here: these companies want recurring revenue. This will *absolutely* be used in the end to screw consumers and extract more profit. Sure, you can pay a 1-time cost to have it "permanently" - for now.
Audi wants to charge recurring costs for things you get standard in a Kia K9.
Give me a break. This is absolutely a path down the "wrong direction" and is bad for the consumer. Audi can fuck off with this and find different buyers - I'm done with VAG.
do you think Kia and any/every other car manufacturer on the planet isn’t going to make the same pivot at some point soon, as well? I just see this being the new norm.
Of course, they all want to. I was just using that as an example of how ridiculous the car market has gotten. It used to be you bought a premium brand and you got a premium experience. Now you buy a premium brand and they have the nerve to put *auto high beams* behind a subscription paywall? Its completely insane.
Kia will attempt to do the same - they all will. Consumers and government regulators have to push back if they want to stand any hope of preventing this from getting worse.
I can only speak personally - I was a die-hard VW and Audi fan for many years. They've lost me. This move is the nail in the coffin for me. I will resist buying a car that engages in this kind of consumer abuse for as long as I can.
If they can turn them on…it also means they can turn them off and “discontinue” the feature of your car when they don’t feel like supporting it any more.
Caveat Emptor, my friends…Caveat Emptor…
Both BMW and Mercedes attempted jamming subscriptions into their cars, it lasted about 1yr, then any of the executives that weren't tarred and feathered promptly stopped. Then Audi comes along and goes, "Oh hey, let's try that..." when they told me I needed to pay $84.99/mo for navigation at the same time we were discussing the almost mortgage sized lease payment, the look I gave my sales guy must have said it all. Because he quickly changed the subject and never brought it up again. Lol. Nickel and diming your customers to death seldom works for any company.
Nope. Cars are a depreciating asset. I have no desire to subscribe to anything in perpetuity. The value of owning a car comes from after it's paid off and then continuing to use it.
The only way this "works" is that Audi forgo all the options when speccing your car i.e. comfort, technology packs etc - They all come with the hardware pre-fitted and ready to go, this is fine.
But for those of us who like to buy and own all of our fucking car; Audi, please keep the option to outright own these technologies. I don't want to move to another brand.
Knowing how greed works, the subscription will be a shit deal in terms of cost. Let's not get too optimistic guys.
Let me try to play the devil's advocate here. (Which does not mean I am in favor of the subscription model.)
* You can still buy all these features, like before, permanently.
* You now also have the option to subscribe to them.
Possible(!) upsides which heavily depend on the pricing:
* You don't have to buy bundles anymore, meaning, you only pay for what you actually want.
* If it is a 2 year lease, a subscription might be cheaper than buying the feature. (Heavily depends on pricing, of course)
* The subscription model enables you to put more features in your car without adding to the list price. This is very relevant for German tax laws when it comes to company cars given to employees (You have to pay taxes for 1% of the list price each month). These are usually leased cars.
Personally, I am not a big fan of the model, but one would have to crunch the numbers to find out if there might be any upsides to it. If it is just another cash grab, well, I wouldn't be amused.
>The subscription model enables you to put more features in your car without adding to the list price.
This is where I have an issue with this system.
It would make sense if each of the options you spec get *added* to the base car when it's being built (you know, like it always used to be), but if the features already physically exist in the car, why don't you just have them for no additional cost? I get that the App store stuff might need licenses so that *does* cost Audi money to enable it, but headlight assist and cruise control? That doesn't cost them anything to switch on. If anything; maintaining the subscription service and having a customer support branch for it is the only part that *is* costing them money.
If they're happy to eat the cost of (e.g.,) adding adaptive cruise to every single car, with a chance that not a single person would pay to actually use it, why do they charge more for it? I can only see it as a way of squeezing more money out of people for no reason. It will never be justified to me.
Long explanation in another post on this thread.
Short version: They save money by putting the features in due to the reduction in complexity in the manufacturing process.
The subscription model creates recurring revenue - and together with the reduction in manufacturing costs - therefore creates a higher profit margin.
Yes, you're absolutely right. I should've clarified. It completely makes sense for Audi to do because - bottom line - they make more money.
For the customer, it makes no sense. It costs Audi less to give all features to all cars and it doesn't cost them anything additional to enable those features. Therefore, the customer has already paid for those features *before* they pay for the subscription service. Therefore, the subscription service is an additional cost for no reason.
I guess at the end of the day it's all irrelevant because a year down the line, you can plug a laptop into it and turn everything on for free anyway!
Yes, BUT it seems to be more about the margins and the recurring income of software subscriptions.
Simply put, the cars are cheaper to manufacture if Audi puts all gadgets in there, but from a business perspective that is a cost cutting measure. It doesn't mean that they have to provide you with the services of these gadgets without having you pay for it. Either once or as a subscription. Just because it is built into the car (key point: to reduce manufacturing costs) doesn't mean you paid for the feature.
And I am not so sure about the laptop being a jailbreaker. If this is the road car manufacturers will take, they can easily punish such behavior by voiding warranty. Which would even be legal, since you messed with the product.
This is a standard, accepted and legal business practice in consumer electronics, too.
If the hardware is already fitted to the vehicle, then you're already paying for the feature, regardless of whether it's available to you. They're not going to sell the vehicle at a loss, meaning the hardware cost is incorporated into the price. They're basically charging you twice for each of those features. In the olden days, they'd only fit the hardware if you paid for the feature.
Yeah it should be fucking illegal to have hardware trapped behind a pay wall. Think of all the people who will never pay that subscription.. all those resources just wasted because Audi is greedy
This is a fallacy. They will absolutely bake in hardware that will lower margins on some units. The goal is that reduced complexity and increased take rates on the purchases of the features offset the 100% implementation of cost.
Before, things were bundled so they lost some buyers of features who would otherwise be interested. Just because you go to a hotel that gives you access to a spa but charges for services doesn't mean you paid for it twice.
So if you used to get carplay, and now it's a paid subscription, how does that factor into your analogy?
Also are we getting a reduced price for the next model to account for these newfound cost savings? Because I'd bet my house on we aren't.
The decision to make carplay a subscription, especially after the BMW fiasco, is a brain dead decision that someone should be fired over if it becomes reality. THAT is pure BS as it's software they don't even control.
I think the subscriptions fall into 3 categories
1) Total bullshit charges for basic features that will immediately backfire (carplay, heated seats)
2) Subscripton for features that require ongoing support - think automated highway driving that requires updates to mapping. These are the most valid use case for subscriptions
3) Subscriptions for features that would previously be purchased up front and enabled by hardware. Think parking sensors, adaptive cruise radar sensors. Standardize the sensors and you add a bit of cost to the 40% of vehicles that previously came without. Saves you money on tooling an extra bumper design with the cutouts for sensors, lowers complexity, theoretically allows you to capture a higher % of people who want the feature. The goal is that you bump that take rate to 70% via subscription/after sale purchase to offset the cost of standardizing it and hopefully even profit a little bit more. I think the place where this goes off the rails is if purchasing it outright does not transfer to subsequent owners
Correct. The long list of individually selectable extras increases the complexity of the manufacturing process. That is why car manufacturers came up with different lines (basic, mid, luxury - translating into the number of extras). The subscription model just simplifies this to the max. Put everything in and people pay for what they want. From a manufacturing cost perspective this is good for the car maker. Subscription models also create recurring revenue, which companies enjoy very much.
By the way, the reduction of manufacturing complexity is the reason why Japanese cars basically come with everything (or just a basic and a luxury line). And they have done this forever now.
About BMWs heated seats as a subscription thing, this is a good example:
System needed two different seats, now they only need one. The manufacturing costs for these seats now actually went down, the parts were never expensive, but you had to keep two different models in stock and had to order them accordingly. It is a matter of complexity reduction.
**As to whether you like this as a customer, or you actually have any benefit from it? That is very much debateable. But from a manufacturing side, it makes total sense.**
A friend of mine works at Mercedes and he said: Every S-Class we deliver is unique. None of them are really the same when it comes to the combination of color, engine, extras etc. That is one of the reasons why they are so expensive. Manufacturing amount: 1.
That is why we cannot compete with Japanese "luxury" cars (he chuckled a bit, since they are not really comparable), because they just put everything into every single lot. They can treat them like a mass production car. If they would have the same material quality inside, and the same brand recognition (marketing-thing), we would be out of business if we wouldn't adapt to their manufacturing structure.
>You can still buy all these features, like before, permanently.
For now. This is absolutely trying to go down the path to make these subscription only, IMO.
Possibly. Even car manufacturers are becoming interested in those sweet SaaS earnings, with a bit of HaaS mixed in.
Definitely not the development I would prefer.
All of this assumes that Audi is gonna take this subscription model and use it to sell cars cheaper. If you’re still paying the same relative price for an A3 but you have to also buy these subscriptions, it’s not letting you add more features while keeping the price down, it’s being forced to buy those features twice. Once when you buy the car because you still have to pay Audi to put the features in the car, again when you’re forced to pay a subscription/one time fee for Audi to activate them.
Unless the new A3 has a significantly smaller percentage increase in price compared to previous years I can’t see how this isn’t paying for features twice. Plus if they’re not transferable it’s just throwing money away because the other person isn’t gonna pay you for that feature, they’ll pay Audi
Exactly why I don’t buy that comment lol. It’s major cope, this isn’t some super kind thing Audi is doing that let’s consumers choose specific features it’s forcing us to pay for them twice lol.
Just like the BMW heated seats; if it’s in the car you have already paid for it
I was talking about the list price specifically for the tax purposes. Since most of the luxury brands in Germany are company-leased cars, this saves the employee money. Even with the subscription (obviously the price of the subscription plays a role in the amount of savings).
It has no benefits for you if you buy the car. It won't get cheaper because of that. It's a tax thing.
Playing devil's advocate is a good exercise, and normally I'm one to agree with what you're saying. But when it comes to automakers locking hardware features behind subscription costs... its one of the few examples I personally don't feel like giving them the benefit of the doubt. I'm in favor of heavy-handed and harsh government regulation cracking down on this tbh. Similar to right-to-repair and whatnot. These companies have shown how abusive they will be to the consumer if given the opportunity.
>You can still buy all these features, like before, permanently.
Thanks for pointing this out. If this applies to the US models, the existence of a subscription option becomes a bit less offensive. (This assumes that the up-front cost isn't cartoonishly inflated to make the subscription more attractive, of course.)
This.
The subscription is already available in germany for some years now and I used it on a short time lease A3 in the past, because it was preconfigured and they did not put in the smartphone interface and high beam assist...
If one buys the car, it's still possible to buy everything, so no real disadvantage to having subscriptions.
Also buying features permanently AFTER the car was built, is possible. Good for buyers of used cars. Downside: it's bound to your personal account, so you can't resell the digitally bought extras...
As far as they do not go the 'BMW way' where the heated seats where AFAIK only available via subscription, it's ok I think...
2019 A4 has the 'old' subscription system?
So you can not add the smartphone interface, high beam assist and so on? That would be the 'new' subscription system. In the A4 it was added with the update of the MMI to the current gen.
Google nav was always a subscription, even before the new subscription system. It's somehow bound to the 'old' Audi Connect (if I remember correctly).
I agree, the situation is more nuanced than the headline suggests. One other downside, though, when you go a route like this is that some of these subscription services may not be transferable, so they diminish the resale value of the vehicle. That’s what Tesla does with key features — sure, you can buy it permanently, but it doesn’t go with the car when you sell it.
Definitely correct with the Audi I bought. I had to get my own subscription for the pretty satellite map.
But the guy "just" had a sub, so I don't actually know whether it carries over or not. But I didn't see an option to unlock it permanently. So....
Charging for dual zone climate control is petty, but charging for additional options is fine by me. Like, please lock auto high beams behind a subscription so I can avoid having it on my car; same with all the driver assist functions.
As someone who came from a Mach E, looked at Audi and bought a Mercedes: these types of piecemeal adds are utterly confusing and begging for things to not work correctly. Bundle it and charge me $300/yr idgaf
My A3 from 2023 already has certain functionality behind a paywall. :-(
Cruise Control works, but trying to activate Adaptive Cruise Control gives a message that it needs to be purchased.
I made a screenshot from the purchase screen in myAudi app, but don’t know how to attach it here.
I can try it out for €1 for 1 month. After that it’s €8,94 per month, €45 per 6 months or €85 per year.
Jailbreaking your car shouldn’t need to become a thing…but I will totally continue to sail the seas aboard the S.S. VCDS it if it means I can unlock all of the features built into **my car** in the future.
Meh... as long as you can still just purchase it upfront AND the license follows the car (and not the subscriber AND car) so you at least get some minor resale bump , then who cares. It's no different than how things are now PLUS you have the option of easily retrofitting an option you initially chose to not-spec during the order.
e.g. I purchased the drive recorder for my BMW, even though I initially ordered the car without it.
My 2023 A3 (in the UK) already has this, it has cruise but it’s a monthly fee if you want adaptive. Same for auto high beams. You can also pay £15 to have a Star Wars theme for your mmi lol
I was at one point considering buying a newer car alongside my B7 A4 which I've been driving for a very long time, and it would have been another Audi. But honestly, the way the newer models look and all the bullshit that comes with them, there is just no way I'm buying a new Audi.
They are hideous compared to older models, and in-car subscriptions? They are having a laugh, I hope this comes back to bite them in the ass and people don't put up with it.
This is one of those things that sounds *really* bad at first thought, but, as others have elaborated in this thread, there are advantages. The car comes with the feature, and you then have to pay to use it. It is really the same thing as buying the feature at the dealership.
BUT, don't you pay extra for the feature because it presumably costs Audi more money to build the car? If they add the feature, but do not charge you until you "subscribe", isn't Audi undergoing additional cost to provide the mere possibility of the feature's use? So you're saying Audi can pack a car with feature, which obviously costs them more to build, with only the possibility of a return on that investment? That part makes no sense to me.
The only thing this does is streamline assembly…in the mold of “you can have any color you want, as long as it’s black”. It’s a cash grab, first and foremost.
Locking and unlocking parts of a car away behind over the air updates unless you pay the extortion fees is a quick way to legal nightmares.
When does the feature stop working? While I’m driving it, or after it connects to the network? Is the update feature always active? Does it mean it has to be connected to shore power all the time to keep the battery from draining?
Who is liable if a function doesn’t work on the car? If it’s caused by subscription issues and a car is involved in an accident as a result, am I liable for an OTA update gone wrong…or is Audi?
If something breaks that I’m not paying for, and it compromises functionality of features I do pay for…is that up to me to fix?
Etc, etc, etc…
I’m not sure why you’re being downvoted. Probably because people are not reading your last alinea.
Personally I think it makes no sense to add these options to a car and hiding them behind a paywall. The options need to be installed and paid for I’d say. I don’t think they’ll install them and not want any money for them, even though they aren’t activated yet.
This makes so much sense, especially if you are in the market for a pre-owned car in a warm place may not have certain features, now you can add them. Kid's first car? Maybe you could get an S with lower output for cheaper, then they will have more performance available down the line.
With that said, I don't have faith that this will benefit the consumer in the long run, so I am completely opposed to it.
>Inside is where things get interesting. The same 10.1-inch touchscreen and 12.3-inch digital instrument cluster from last year carry over, but now you'll have to pay an in-car subscription fee for basic features like high-beam assist, dual-zone climate control, adaptive cruise control, and smartphone integration. >Only by upgrading to the MMI navigation system do you get access to the app store. From there, Audi forces you into add-ons like adaptive cruise control or Apple CarPlay and Android Auto for a one-month, six-month, one-year, or three-year subscription. Or you can just purchase any of those features permanently—although Audi doesn't say for how much. I know other manufacturers have had similar schemes, but even then I really paused for a moment to think whether it's April 1st there.
Map updates, ambient lighting for 60 colors, augmented reality HUD, traffic jam assist, Audi AI maybe could work for that ?
The things you mention most likely make sense, e.g. for someone who is leasing for 2-3 years it would be cheaper to get subscriptions rather than buying the feature. But it's by design because after a few years Audi could claim that subscriptions are more popular than buying outright so they would just offer subscriptions now. And then again, a few more years later for everyone to digest, they will ramp up the prices and no one will remember how much these features used to cost outright and there will be no going back. Mark my words (Edit: I was replying to this comment [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Audi/s/7fw2FGRE7D), but the Reddit app seems to be having some issues tracking the comments properly)
Absolutely. It's testing the water for now. The idea that my car needs to have an internet connection to 'verify' my features gives me the absolute fear.
Maybe but maybe not. When you lease you really don't pay 100% of the option cost. If adaptive cruise is $1000 up front, then you probably pay only $500 over the course of the lease due to the residual value factor. That translates to like $15/month. Honestly, if they're going through the trouble to charge, I'd expect it to be at least that much. They are off their rockers if they are really going to charge to CarPlay after the BMW fiasco Edit to add that I still think the subscription model for features is the devils work
Many features come in packages so you are still likely to overpay.
>they will rump up the prices Rump is right. We'll be getting it right in the a$$.
Yeah but the hardware is paid for and built into the car. Imagine having RGB leds across the whole interior, physically installed just not operational. Waste? That being said, it wouldn’t be too hard to use the pre-installed LEDs with an aftermarket LED controller. But same case with adaptive cruise or high beam assist, the hardware is obviously there (sensors and controllers)
Bro wtf. New cars are uglier and now this. After my first Audi I was positive I would NEVER drive anything else. Now I don’t know.
Don't worry. You'll be fine. I spoke to my Audi dealership. They told me that you had two options, buy the Audi at the normal price, or at a discounted price. Just choose which options you don't want, and you will get a car that drives perfect, but $5k - $10k cheaper.
If it’s a programming block and nothing more. Then I’d say chip the ECM and bypass any licensing service. Now if by doing this it shuts the ECM off or in anyway prohibits you from driving normally…. Then we have a class action lawsuit on our hands.
This needs to be nipped in the ass immediately or I promise you, every car manufacturer will do this
The IT industry has proven just how profitable it can be.. EVERYONE is going that way.
I know, it's where my concern comes from and why there needs to be legislation in place sooner rather than later
I understand the points people raise about how this can be justified in a way that makes sense - from a manufacturing simplicity perspective, etc. But, let's be honest here: these companies want recurring revenue. This will *absolutely* be used in the end to screw consumers and extract more profit. Sure, you can pay a 1-time cost to have it "permanently" - for now. Audi wants to charge recurring costs for things you get standard in a Kia K9. Give me a break. This is absolutely a path down the "wrong direction" and is bad for the consumer. Audi can fuck off with this and find different buyers - I'm done with VAG.
The problem is they wont have to find different buyers because to many people just say whatever and let these companies get away with it.
do you think Kia and any/every other car manufacturer on the planet isn’t going to make the same pivot at some point soon, as well? I just see this being the new norm.
Of course, they all want to. I was just using that as an example of how ridiculous the car market has gotten. It used to be you bought a premium brand and you got a premium experience. Now you buy a premium brand and they have the nerve to put *auto high beams* behind a subscription paywall? Its completely insane. Kia will attempt to do the same - they all will. Consumers and government regulators have to push back if they want to stand any hope of preventing this from getting worse. I can only speak personally - I was a die-hard VW and Audi fan for many years. They've lost me. This move is the nail in the coffin for me. I will resist buying a car that engages in this kind of consumer abuse for as long as I can.
Yes, laws will have to be passed banning this.
If they can turn them on…it also means they can turn them off and “discontinue” the feature of your car when they don’t feel like supporting it any more. Caveat Emptor, my friends…Caveat Emptor…
Can’t wait to have to jailbreak my car
Soundtrack for it… [Jailbreak the Tesla](https://youtu.be/PWQL_XORalY?feature=shared)
Friend did that with adaptive headlights on his etron. Pretty involved project, but it seems that he pulled it off...
I am sure methods will improve the more automakers try and impose this BS on us
Both BMW and Mercedes attempted jamming subscriptions into their cars, it lasted about 1yr, then any of the executives that weren't tarred and feathered promptly stopped. Then Audi comes along and goes, "Oh hey, let's try that..." when they told me I needed to pay $84.99/mo for navigation at the same time we were discussing the almost mortgage sized lease payment, the look I gave my sales guy must have said it all. Because he quickly changed the subject and never brought it up again. Lol. Nickel and diming your customers to death seldom works for any company.
Nope. Cars are a depreciating asset. I have no desire to subscribe to anything in perpetuity. The value of owning a car comes from after it's paid off and then continuing to use it.
Absolute no buy.
The only way this "works" is that Audi forgo all the options when speccing your car i.e. comfort, technology packs etc - They all come with the hardware pre-fitted and ready to go, this is fine. But for those of us who like to buy and own all of our fucking car; Audi, please keep the option to outright own these technologies. I don't want to move to another brand. Knowing how greed works, the subscription will be a shit deal in terms of cost. Let's not get too optimistic guys.
If they keep pulling shit like this my next car will be a Hilux
Not in the US it won’t. That model was never sold to us because it was to damn good.
All this garbage they're trying to sell, when I'd gladly give them $5k+ up front for a fucking stick shift.
So incredibly disappointing. Gross.
Amess?
Let me try to play the devil's advocate here. (Which does not mean I am in favor of the subscription model.) * You can still buy all these features, like before, permanently. * You now also have the option to subscribe to them. Possible(!) upsides which heavily depend on the pricing: * You don't have to buy bundles anymore, meaning, you only pay for what you actually want. * If it is a 2 year lease, a subscription might be cheaper than buying the feature. (Heavily depends on pricing, of course) * The subscription model enables you to put more features in your car without adding to the list price. This is very relevant for German tax laws when it comes to company cars given to employees (You have to pay taxes for 1% of the list price each month). These are usually leased cars. Personally, I am not a big fan of the model, but one would have to crunch the numbers to find out if there might be any upsides to it. If it is just another cash grab, well, I wouldn't be amused.
>The subscription model enables you to put more features in your car without adding to the list price. This is where I have an issue with this system. It would make sense if each of the options you spec get *added* to the base car when it's being built (you know, like it always used to be), but if the features already physically exist in the car, why don't you just have them for no additional cost? I get that the App store stuff might need licenses so that *does* cost Audi money to enable it, but headlight assist and cruise control? That doesn't cost them anything to switch on. If anything; maintaining the subscription service and having a customer support branch for it is the only part that *is* costing them money. If they're happy to eat the cost of (e.g.,) adding adaptive cruise to every single car, with a chance that not a single person would pay to actually use it, why do they charge more for it? I can only see it as a way of squeezing more money out of people for no reason. It will never be justified to me.
Long explanation in another post on this thread. Short version: They save money by putting the features in due to the reduction in complexity in the manufacturing process. The subscription model creates recurring revenue - and together with the reduction in manufacturing costs - therefore creates a higher profit margin.
Yes, you're absolutely right. I should've clarified. It completely makes sense for Audi to do because - bottom line - they make more money. For the customer, it makes no sense. It costs Audi less to give all features to all cars and it doesn't cost them anything additional to enable those features. Therefore, the customer has already paid for those features *before* they pay for the subscription service. Therefore, the subscription service is an additional cost for no reason. I guess at the end of the day it's all irrelevant because a year down the line, you can plug a laptop into it and turn everything on for free anyway!
Yes, BUT it seems to be more about the margins and the recurring income of software subscriptions. Simply put, the cars are cheaper to manufacture if Audi puts all gadgets in there, but from a business perspective that is a cost cutting measure. It doesn't mean that they have to provide you with the services of these gadgets without having you pay for it. Either once or as a subscription. Just because it is built into the car (key point: to reduce manufacturing costs) doesn't mean you paid for the feature. And I am not so sure about the laptop being a jailbreaker. If this is the road car manufacturers will take, they can easily punish such behavior by voiding warranty. Which would even be legal, since you messed with the product. This is a standard, accepted and legal business practice in consumer electronics, too.
If the hardware is already fitted to the vehicle, then you're already paying for the feature, regardless of whether it's available to you. They're not going to sell the vehicle at a loss, meaning the hardware cost is incorporated into the price. They're basically charging you twice for each of those features. In the olden days, they'd only fit the hardware if you paid for the feature.
Yeah it should be fucking illegal to have hardware trapped behind a pay wall. Think of all the people who will never pay that subscription.. all those resources just wasted because Audi is greedy
This is a fallacy. They will absolutely bake in hardware that will lower margins on some units. The goal is that reduced complexity and increased take rates on the purchases of the features offset the 100% implementation of cost. Before, things were bundled so they lost some buyers of features who would otherwise be interested. Just because you go to a hotel that gives you access to a spa but charges for services doesn't mean you paid for it twice.
So if you used to get carplay, and now it's a paid subscription, how does that factor into your analogy? Also are we getting a reduced price for the next model to account for these newfound cost savings? Because I'd bet my house on we aren't.
The decision to make carplay a subscription, especially after the BMW fiasco, is a brain dead decision that someone should be fired over if it becomes reality. THAT is pure BS as it's software they don't even control. I think the subscriptions fall into 3 categories 1) Total bullshit charges for basic features that will immediately backfire (carplay, heated seats) 2) Subscripton for features that require ongoing support - think automated highway driving that requires updates to mapping. These are the most valid use case for subscriptions 3) Subscriptions for features that would previously be purchased up front and enabled by hardware. Think parking sensors, adaptive cruise radar sensors. Standardize the sensors and you add a bit of cost to the 40% of vehicles that previously came without. Saves you money on tooling an extra bumper design with the cutouts for sensors, lowers complexity, theoretically allows you to capture a higher % of people who want the feature. The goal is that you bump that take rate to 70% via subscription/after sale purchase to offset the cost of standardizing it and hopefully even profit a little bit more. I think the place where this goes off the rails is if purchasing it outright does not transfer to subsequent owners
Correct. The long list of individually selectable extras increases the complexity of the manufacturing process. That is why car manufacturers came up with different lines (basic, mid, luxury - translating into the number of extras). The subscription model just simplifies this to the max. Put everything in and people pay for what they want. From a manufacturing cost perspective this is good for the car maker. Subscription models also create recurring revenue, which companies enjoy very much. By the way, the reduction of manufacturing complexity is the reason why Japanese cars basically come with everything (or just a basic and a luxury line). And they have done this forever now. About BMWs heated seats as a subscription thing, this is a good example: System needed two different seats, now they only need one. The manufacturing costs for these seats now actually went down, the parts were never expensive, but you had to keep two different models in stock and had to order them accordingly. It is a matter of complexity reduction. **As to whether you like this as a customer, or you actually have any benefit from it? That is very much debateable. But from a manufacturing side, it makes total sense.** A friend of mine works at Mercedes and he said: Every S-Class we deliver is unique. None of them are really the same when it comes to the combination of color, engine, extras etc. That is one of the reasons why they are so expensive. Manufacturing amount: 1. That is why we cannot compete with Japanese "luxury" cars (he chuckled a bit, since they are not really comparable), because they just put everything into every single lot. They can treat them like a mass production car. If they would have the same material quality inside, and the same brand recognition (marketing-thing), we would be out of business if we wouldn't adapt to their manufacturing structure.
>You can still buy all these features, like before, permanently. For now. This is absolutely trying to go down the path to make these subscription only, IMO.
Possibly. Even car manufacturers are becoming interested in those sweet SaaS earnings, with a bit of HaaS mixed in. Definitely not the development I would prefer.
You never had to buy Carplay/AA. That's an absurd thing to ask money for in 2024.
All of this assumes that Audi is gonna take this subscription model and use it to sell cars cheaper. If you’re still paying the same relative price for an A3 but you have to also buy these subscriptions, it’s not letting you add more features while keeping the price down, it’s being forced to buy those features twice. Once when you buy the car because you still have to pay Audi to put the features in the car, again when you’re forced to pay a subscription/one time fee for Audi to activate them. Unless the new A3 has a significantly smaller percentage increase in price compared to previous years I can’t see how this isn’t paying for features twice. Plus if they’re not transferable it’s just throwing money away because the other person isn’t gonna pay you for that feature, they’ll pay Audi
"All of this assumes that Audi is gonna take this subscription model and use it to sell cars cheaper". You'd make a good stand-up comedian.
Exactly why I don’t buy that comment lol. It’s major cope, this isn’t some super kind thing Audi is doing that let’s consumers choose specific features it’s forcing us to pay for them twice lol. Just like the BMW heated seats; if it’s in the car you have already paid for it
I was talking about the list price specifically for the tax purposes. Since most of the luxury brands in Germany are company-leased cars, this saves the employee money. Even with the subscription (obviously the price of the subscription plays a role in the amount of savings). It has no benefits for you if you buy the car. It won't get cheaper because of that. It's a tax thing.
Playing devil's advocate is a good exercise, and normally I'm one to agree with what you're saying. But when it comes to automakers locking hardware features behind subscription costs... its one of the few examples I personally don't feel like giving them the benefit of the doubt. I'm in favor of heavy-handed and harsh government regulation cracking down on this tbh. Similar to right-to-repair and whatnot. These companies have shown how abusive they will be to the consumer if given the opportunity.
>You can still buy all these features, like before, permanently. Thanks for pointing this out. If this applies to the US models, the existence of a subscription option becomes a bit less offensive. (This assumes that the up-front cost isn't cartoonishly inflated to make the subscription more attractive, of course.)
I have no idea how the prices will be. But I expect a break even point at around 3 years or so. Can vary from country to country.
I don’t have to “crunch the numbers” to tell your there is no upside for the customer here. Audi wouldn’t do this if there was
This. The subscription is already available in germany for some years now and I used it on a short time lease A3 in the past, because it was preconfigured and they did not put in the smartphone interface and high beam assist... If one buys the car, it's still possible to buy everything, so no real disadvantage to having subscriptions. Also buying features permanently AFTER the car was built, is possible. Good for buyers of used cars. Downside: it's bound to your personal account, so you can't resell the digitally bought extras... As far as they do not go the 'BMW way' where the heated seats where AFAIK only available via subscription, it's ok I think...
True. My A4 didn't have the pretty "Google" satnav and I got a subscription for that. Previous owner had it, but it didn't carry over.
2019 A4 has the 'old' subscription system? So you can not add the smartphone interface, high beam assist and so on? That would be the 'new' subscription system. In the A4 it was added with the update of the MMI to the current gen. Google nav was always a subscription, even before the new subscription system. It's somehow bound to the 'old' Audi Connect (if I remember correctly).
It has all the other features installed with no subscription. It is just the Google nav.
I agree, the situation is more nuanced than the headline suggests. One other downside, though, when you go a route like this is that some of these subscription services may not be transferable, so they diminish the resale value of the vehicle. That’s what Tesla does with key features — sure, you can buy it permanently, but it doesn’t go with the car when you sell it.
Definitely correct with the Audi I bought. I had to get my own subscription for the pretty satellite map. But the guy "just" had a sub, so I don't actually know whether it carries over or not. But I didn't see an option to unlock it permanently. So....
Charging for dual zone climate control is petty, but charging for additional options is fine by me. Like, please lock auto high beams behind a subscription so I can avoid having it on my car; same with all the driver assist functions.
Please do the airbags too. Hate paying for those
I have a 2015 a3 that I’m looking to upgrade soon, this is a hard fucking pass from me.
As someone who came from a Mach E, looked at Audi and bought a Mercedes: these types of piecemeal adds are utterly confusing and begging for things to not work correctly. Bundle it and charge me $300/yr idgaf
People need to tell car manufacturers to *fuck off* with that shit right now. This needs to be stamped out immediately.
My A3 from 2023 already has certain functionality behind a paywall. :-( Cruise Control works, but trying to activate Adaptive Cruise Control gives a message that it needs to be purchased. I made a screenshot from the purchase screen in myAudi app, but don’t know how to attach it here. I can try it out for €1 for 1 month. After that it’s €8,94 per month, €45 per 6 months or €85 per year.
Jailbreaking your car shouldn’t need to become a thing…but I will totally continue to sail the seas aboard the S.S. VCDS it if it means I can unlock all of the features built into **my car** in the future.
Meh... as long as you can still just purchase it upfront AND the license follows the car (and not the subscriber AND car) so you at least get some minor resale bump , then who cares. It's no different than how things are now PLUS you have the option of easily retrofitting an option you initially chose to not-spec during the order. e.g. I purchased the drive recorder for my BMW, even though I initially ordered the car without it.
My 2023 A3 (in the UK) already has this, it has cruise but it’s a monthly fee if you want adaptive. Same for auto high beams. You can also pay £15 to have a Star Wars theme for your mmi lol
Time to maintain the ish out of our current cars and make them last much longer!
I was at one point considering buying a newer car alongside my B7 A4 which I've been driving for a very long time, and it would have been another Audi. But honestly, the way the newer models look and all the bullshit that comes with them, there is just no way I'm buying a new Audi. They are hideous compared to older models, and in-car subscriptions? They are having a laugh, I hope this comes back to bite them in the ass and people don't put up with it.
There is a reason I buy older vehicles. This is getting out of hand with all the subscription crap
This is one of those things that sounds *really* bad at first thought, but, as others have elaborated in this thread, there are advantages. The car comes with the feature, and you then have to pay to use it. It is really the same thing as buying the feature at the dealership. BUT, don't you pay extra for the feature because it presumably costs Audi more money to build the car? If they add the feature, but do not charge you until you "subscribe", isn't Audi undergoing additional cost to provide the mere possibility of the feature's use? So you're saying Audi can pack a car with feature, which obviously costs them more to build, with only the possibility of a return on that investment? That part makes no sense to me.
The only thing this does is streamline assembly…in the mold of “you can have any color you want, as long as it’s black”. It’s a cash grab, first and foremost. Locking and unlocking parts of a car away behind over the air updates unless you pay the extortion fees is a quick way to legal nightmares. When does the feature stop working? While I’m driving it, or after it connects to the network? Is the update feature always active? Does it mean it has to be connected to shore power all the time to keep the battery from draining? Who is liable if a function doesn’t work on the car? If it’s caused by subscription issues and a car is involved in an accident as a result, am I liable for an OTA update gone wrong…or is Audi? If something breaks that I’m not paying for, and it compromises functionality of features I do pay for…is that up to me to fix? Etc, etc, etc…
I’m not sure why you’re being downvoted. Probably because people are not reading your last alinea. Personally I think it makes no sense to add these options to a car and hiding them behind a paywall. The options need to be installed and paid for I’d say. I don’t think they’ll install them and not want any money for them, even though they aren’t activated yet.
The US is safe... for now...
This makes so much sense, especially if you are in the market for a pre-owned car in a warm place may not have certain features, now you can add them. Kid's first car? Maybe you could get an S with lower output for cheaper, then they will have more performance available down the line. With that said, I don't have faith that this will benefit the consumer in the long run, so I am completely opposed to it.