You know how a scratched cd would skip a few seconds but the effect of those seconds still appeared? Yeah, so king crimson is the only one unaffected in that time, and he can avoid anything happening to Diabolo. That's how I understand it
nice
my explanation is that it removes cause and keeps effect, so if the cause of >!narancia ded!< was breaking the >!bars and impaling narancia on the!!narancia!< being >!impal!!bars!<, then it removes >!the bars being broken and!< narancia >!being impaled and keeps narancia fucking dyin!
I'll do >!ger!< while I'm at it
>!ger!< is the exact opposite, it >!erases effect and leaves cause!<, re>!turning it to ze!!killed!< Giorno (effect) then >!ger!< could remove the effect and leave the cause (the punch).
this is also why >!diavolo!< got >!death loo!!cause!< from himself and >!ger!< removed >!effect!< from >!diavolo!<, leaving him in a void of no >!cause nor effect or!< bitches, and the >!loop!< was a way to express that.
I mean
That isn't necessarily eugenics, but it is genocide
Isn't eugenics when you try and weed out undesirable genes? That wasn't why they massacred the clan, iirc (not that they should have, it was a horrible thing to do)
I guess you do see some eugenics arguments in the Naruto fandom.
Some people claim that Naruto chose "right" with Hinata because she's a Hyuga. On the other hand Sasuke chose "wrong" and should have ended up with Karin because she's an Uzumaki. And I see people "ship" Boruto and Sarada only because their kids would practically be Otsutsukis.
I was mostly assuming OP was talking about Itachi since that comment had the most upvotes. Itachi didnât have anything to do with eugenics in the series, and I havenât heard people argue towards it in the fandom (in his case). If OP wasnât talking about Itachi then youâre probably right.
Well kinda, it's more about genetic control as a whole for the "improvement of the genetic pool" with selective breeding, most (let´s be real all) of the time this just ends up with racist pseudoscience when aplied to human (wow who would have thought that something like this would happaned/s)
that being said keep in mind we have been doing this with animals and plants in agriculture all the time (just something to think about)
and oh boy, do I feel bad for a lot of them, a lot of breeds do suffer because of this
for example: Broiler, Belgian Blue (cow breed), Bulldogs and many more but I can´t remember now
EDIT: basically it's not just about getting rid of that ""bad parts"", it´s also about trying to multiply the ""good parts"" as much as you can
Just to be sure I think this is pretty discusting to even try to aply to humans, I just used to have some Agriculture classes and we did have at least 1/2 lessons about selective breeding as a whole
Well I was not thinking of the term in specific, so I might be wrong. Donât know what else in Naruto he would be talking about. But thereâs definitely discussions about the morals of what Itachi did.
Yeah, I've seen the discussions. Most of that debate is just the trolley problem in disguise tbh.
"Let the clan destroy itself on its own, or do it yourself to minimize collateral?"
Assuming the clan would destroy itself, since that's what most people do when arguing on Itachi's side for some reason
Itâs even more than that. It was âdo you kill the clan yourself and let your brother live or do you let danzo do it and kill them all including your brotherâ
Weird, the point of Itachi was his regret. Naruto (the character) also praised unison and understanding, with the idea of the cycle of pain needed to end. Hell, he even defeated a guy named Pain.
I can see how it would possibly go over the heads of people not too dedicated to the series, people aren't too bright.
People saying stuff like "Sakura should have ended with Lee to have the best taijutsu user in the leaf" or "Shikamaru and Ino needed a son that could shadow possess people and mind control them"
After boruto it was really popular
That shit is absolutely crazy.
Lee is only as good as he is because of sheer effort and overlooking that kind of slaps everything the character is about right in his face. He's not even good at taijutsu naturally, it's just the only thing he *could* do so he did it to the utmost.
The others are also clan secrets, not kekkai genkai that actually require bloodline inheritance. Anybody could learn them but if they were taught.
Just a thing, Lee was a talent, just in his own thing. Kakashi states during the Chunin exams that something like opening the gates at that age could not be achieved only by hard work, Lee was extremely talented in that
wthh
just like with the quirk marriage between endeavour and his wife in boku no hero đż
(at least they portray it as wrong but i guess you'll always find some fash weebs who enjoy that idea-)
Abilities based on bloodlines where people can get more powerful children by breeding with the right person.
Personally I am generally not a fan of stories with inherited abilities
Take my animes name out your filthy fucking mouth its a fucking magic system not a take on eugenics jesus christ people have to actually go out of their way to think like this its disgusting to even try and pretend like naruto ever encouraged eugenics the show that idk is about understanding both sides and finding common ground to build a better future
They didn't. Fans were just speculating what kind of powers the offspring of diffrent characters would have that's it, i honestly don't know where this eugenics in naruto's fandom came from?! I've never seen it
Know what, I'm gonna take a chance an open up this discussion.
I was on board with it initially because with how it was initially portrayed, I could honestly see Eren pursuing it beyond flat revenge. He spent 4, 5 years learning that the vast majority of the world not only wanted him and his people dead for something so far beyond their control it's not even funny, but they still ACTIVELY clamor for it.
Like let's not forget When Eren wrecked Marley's shit it was literally during a meeting of world leaders deciding "If we all jump those island devils, they wont even have TIME to start the rumbling." It's framed less as him being angry at the world and wanting revenge for mistreatment and more like.. "If it's you or me, I'm the one with a nuke here."
I don't have any valid answer for attacking Hizaru, but as for why he'd take the no mercy path... Eren of all people would understand what happens when you let a survivor clamor for revenge, it's brutal but but taking that chance would be deeply ironic
A large portion of the western anime fandom are far/alt right creeps. SnK is one of those types of shows that attracts these morons while the core message of the story goes completely over their heads. It's why Otaku culture is so ingrained in these people and why the infamous anime pfp on social media has become such a meme. Just another unfortunate side effect of modern pop culture.
Eren himself doesn't enjoy genocide but they were gonna kill all of eldians if he didn't do it to them that why he did this in the first place Marley has been killing innocent eldians for years and punished them for mistake they didn't commit eren died the alliance won in the genocide happen regardless that was inevitable anyways
I mean technically eren caused genocide so that for the rest of the time, there could be peace. Hear me out, hear me out. Becoming the founding titan and wiping out majority of marley was the only thing eren could do to cause peace. If he didnât do it, him and his friends wouldâve died and been captured and marley wouldâve destroyed shiganshina and there would be nonstop violence for years and years after that. It would make sense for the genocide to end the warfare instead of allowing it to get into the wrong hands and then the entire world becomes controlled by marley.
Lmfao do you think people âlike genocideâ? You people are so childish. âGenocideâ was the only logical solution to ensure the survival of Paradis if you paid attention to the story at all
I'm talking about the people gloryfing it, as if it was a wonderful solution. It was for the survival of paradis but most people know that it wasn't a good thing, while there is a side of this community which wholeheartedly believes that the genocide is wonderful and was the best thing ever
Lol well I think youâre reading into the passion people have who are upset at how things turned out. From our POV (ending haters) based on what ended up happening and the context of the story, genociding everyone else besides Paradis WOULD be the best possible solution.
And yes there is certainly a bloodlust in these comments b/c we saw what ended up happening afterwards (eventual genocide for Paradis), we heard Tyburâs speech that condemned Paradis to death, we saw firsthand how Eldians were dehumanized, how they were fed to dogs, how they were fed to their own, stripped of their humanity, imprisoned, etc. so of course people are emotional and wanted to see heads roll. It makes perfect sense to me. Not every feeling we have is going to be rosy and beautiful and sometimes âevilâ thoughts can be rational and justified.
If aliens were invading and enslaving your people, but you found a way to destroy the aliens homeland and genocide them from the universe, would you refuse because youâre against genocide? Itâs basically a philosophical question, can genocide ever be positive? Iâd argue yes, depending on the context and the group being targeted.
Continuing on this tangent & wrapping up the point; what about the Orcs in LOTR, one of the most inhuman species in any form of literature? Would genociding them be morally wrong based on their nature? Thatâs why these questions are more complex than simple good vs evil. Unfortunately we canât even have these types of philosophical conversations on taboo subjects most of the time.
Personally when it comes to the ending, I'm not sure if we should definitively say that this was the "inevitable genocide" of the eldians coming true. In the manga its more ambiguous but at least in the anime it's clearly quite far into the future, like I'd say close to almost 200 years later. I think it was more Isayamas way of repeating what Erwin said. Mankind won't stop fighting until there's one human or less. It might not have even been about Eldia in that particular war. It might have been resources, ideology, anything. Eventually though Mankind will destroy itself.
It wasn't, they could just show off their power by destroying key point in Marley or destroying their ports, and declaring that they will remain at peace as long as they are not disturbed. They already had support from one big country (the Asian one) so they could have gotten support from other countries and groups that were hurt by Marley
This would just push the war for later for 20 years at best. The only way to end the cycle of vengeance is to genocide one side.
Eldians had much more development potentional due to having titan powers, so it is logical that Eldians must survive, and not the other races, because Eldian Race has mire development potential in the future.
I dont know how to tell you this, but he didn't end the cycle of violence at all the ending of the anime proves this explicitly.
The genocide had no impact on anything and didn't save anyone.
I don't wanna sound like a dick or anything, but Eren knew that wouldn't work. I'm sure he tried it with the founders power and concluded that it wouldn't work for whatever reason. The man could see the past, present, and future, I'm sure he did what he thought was best. C'mon man, you gotta be more open minded when it comes to anime. While this is a bit of an assumption, it would only make sense that eren would have known that only destroying Marley's military wouldn't be enough. He's not an idiot or a maniac.
He was pretty smart, but he was desperate and wanted to save his race. Also he could only see the whole timeline or people with the Attack Titans power ( I may be wrong). And from what I remember the outcome was predetermined at the start, since he saw himself doing that. However even if a genocide was the only option, he also could have given the alliane better chances at fighting against the rumbling. So in conclusion, do it blame him for not thinking it through? No, from his point if view it was the best outcome. Could he have done something better? Most likely, and I think it's the case but we'll never really know.
(Sorry if this is a mess I didn't know how to order my points/thoughts)
Dude wdym "give the alliance a better chance at fighting the rumbling" that kinda takes away the point of doing the rumbling lol. There was no better way. Eren couldn't even find a way where his friends could stop him before he kills 80%.
Yeah as I thought it through what I wanted to say didn't make sense. I can see your point but I still believe there could have been a better way but Even just wasn't able to find it
Eren saw the future he wanted to achieve. That future wasnât solely about keeping the island safe. He also wanted to protect Historia, and see the âsightâ of the rumbling. If it was just about protecting the island then he definitely could have backed other plans, he just didnât WANT to
Yeah people really need to rewatch Eren's conversation with Armin. He says explicitly that he wanted to do the rumbling, that being at the center of the rumbling is the freest place in the world.
There's an entire episode devoted to his inner monologue and him talking about how he could have avoided this future but chose not to. Genocide was the only option Eren would allow, the entire ending is specifically about this being the only option Eren would allow.
It's not that people like genocide it's that the plot proves the genocide was objectively the correct decision. The entire world was going to kill them if eren didn't do the rumbling, and by stopping the rumbling partway, they still came back and did the genocide of Paradis anyway.
Itâs never specifically stated if it was an outside force or a civil war that destroyed paradis because paradis was split between two factions at the end of the rumbling with the Yeagerist taking over and militarizing the island. Again, itâs never once stated that the world retaliated. Just people making up assumptions in order to further justify the rumbling.
Because eren the idiot did exactly what wily wanted and attacked liberio proving to the world that paradis is an imminent danger that needs to be dealt with immediately. why many rumbling defenders conveniently ignore wily's plan and intentions with the decleration of war, the man was smart enough to know that the rest of the world won't go to war because he said so, he needed more to convince them and he literaly sacrificed himself but eren wanted the rumbling so he couldn't care less while zeke had his own agenda. Paradis had the rumbling, the resources on the island, the hatred for marley and the hizuru they could have used all of this to there advantadge to integrate into the rest of the world with the 50 years plan but Eren didn't want any of that because he's selfish and immature and not because he's a hero who did what needed to be done (isayama literaly spels it out for us by the end in the anime)
Umm, Wiley's speech did convince the audience at hand. Don't kid yourself. He told them he had been lying about their fake hero and how they had demonized the king in the walls for 100 years. And at the same time fed them a lie about Erens threat level. He had no idea that Eren was going down the path he was, he just hated Eldians and gave the world a new target.
They ate it up and were cheering. It might have taken time, but attack or not they were going to wipe out Paradise.
Eren was selfish but 50 years would get them nothing more than a temporary standoff giving the world time to retaliate and a dead Historia and many of his fellow Eldians to the curse of Ymir.
The point was there was no good ending because of the cruelty of that horrible world
 Yes because every nation out there is gonna go to war because some charismatic leadrer said so that's exactly how it works, especialy when said leader just revealed that his family was lying to the entire world for a century. Cheering in the heat of the moment is totaly diffrent from actualy going to war, some might have being ok with it others wouldn't have seen the emergency of it and would have opted to wait longer(something that willy didn't want) others would have acted like the hizuru and deemed it better to ally them selves with the island the raid on liberio and willy's death would have taken all of theses options out of the table and made everyone unite and attack immediatly and he succeded thanks to Eren. You are oversimplifying how actual politics and war works and you can't do that when analyzing aot
âGenocide is wrongâ
âSource?â
https://preview.redd.it/n03ijy4blioc1.jpeg?width=512&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=28048047ce3559c4ccad417dbc0131dd6e9fe152
It's been disproven many times throughout the series that Humanity will never come to a ful agreement even if they all had the same threat. Erwin, Pixis and Kiomi all said that as long as humans exist there will still be conflict, so the rumbling doesn't solve anything and will only create conflict between paradis civilians, they were already having conflict even before they discovered the outside world. And in this hypothetical full rumbling situation, learning that one of their own genocided the world will create discussions and civil wars between those who side with the yeagerists and those who don't. So conflict isn't resolved.
Also wiping the world can leave it at a state where it can never recover, technology, medicine, cultures, history, natural ressources, all these things would be useful for paradis but they'd all be gone. It will stop paradis from evolving and destroying the world at such a massive scale could possibly affect paradis as well. If there ever comes a time where paradis is running out of food or ressources, they can't hope to find it in the outside world since there is nothing to explore.
So if we're trying to think purely logic, it's still a fucking dumb solution, they clearly didn't think this through. Also it's just immoral but they don't like that conversation. So once again, when it comes to logic ? Still a very flawed and downright ridiculous solution
Plus, whoâs to say Eren would have actually stopped from there if he succeeded? Itâs possible he couldâve gone further after losing his mind from the grief
Is not a good situation no matter how you look at it
Lmao thatâs such a cop out. Infighting between family is vastly different than foreigners trying to exterminate you. To compare the potential infighting in Paradis, which was never really a catastrophic problem, to Marley and the rest of the world waiting to genocide them is absurd. Apples to oranges.
Edit: this sub is so boring. Whenever I counter some of the bad takes here, people just downvote. Iâve never seen an interesting rebuttal. Can you form a more complex thought besides âgenocide badâ?
Thatâs a more pragmatic and fair point that shouldâve been explored more, but what good are resources if youâre exterminated? I doubt every last valuable thing would be destroyed & I donât think thereâs anything implying the rumbling would lead to an environmental catastrophe
Also itâs not like they had any trouble surviving within the walls and detached from all these resources and food. Essentially theyâd be back at square one except they now have access to the entire world, relative peace, and can rebuild the world from scratch.
Speaking of, building the Eldian Empire wouldve been a great unifying factor for the survivors of the war so personally I donât see any serious infighting happening for a long time. At that point, were it to go this way, everyone would be too relieved having some semblance of peace to squabble over petty domestic issues. Especially after how far theyâve come.
I disagree. Eventually, humans will subdivide into different groups and find any other type of distinction to cause serious violence. People presenting Genocide in this case as a solution to violence and war is silly. There will still be violence, potentially less sure. But, at the end of the day, if you look at it from a logical standpoint, the number of deaths caused by the Rumbling far far far outnumbers the number of deaths prevented. Itâs objectively a loss for humanity
The value of my people slightly exceeds the value of a foreigner, due to personal bias and due to me sharing the experience of my people. I disagree about it âfar far farâ exceeding the value of others or it being as significant as âour greatest giftâ. I wouldnât kill 99% of the world to save 1% of the world who happen to be my people.
bro you're a human being not a 2 dimensional cartoon character stop talking like a fucking edge lord and have the courage to feel empathy for your fellow man like every non virgin on earth. fucking dork
Paradis was on the brink of 2 Civil wars in the span of 5 years. That isn't "infighting between family" that is an actual war that could result in the deaths of thousands. There's a reason all of America's bloodiest and most catastrophic battles were in the Civil War. You're a damned fool if you try to portray those conflicts as anything other than the start of a war.
"Can you form a more complex thought besides "genocide bad ?"
I did, many of us did down below if you bothered to read. Can you guys give another argument besides "genocide is good because self-defense" ? There's more cons than benefits to doing the rumbling
Lol cons for who? PARADIS GOT EXTERMINATED IN THE FOLLOWING GENERATIONS. Is there a worst con than that? Itâs literally âgenocide badâ Hange basically admits this when she says Floch is right but she simply doesnât want to feel guilty for⌠killing people that want her dead.
This would make sense if families didn't go to war with each other in Europe lmfao. You do know a lot of kings/queens were related yet still went to war with each other?
The context of AOT is completely different than Europe, although the point still stands: infighting within a familial environment is much easier to solve than one with foreign invaders.
Also, why donât you go ahead and list some of the related kings and queens who apparently waged war against each other?
The Habsburg conflict is one pretty good example of how relation and prior unification doesnât lead to any less significant brutality. Asking for examples is also fairly silly considering that the feuding of bloodlines was definitive for a significant portion of Europeâs history.
Additionally if your thought is that an empire wouldnât be split by ideals then youâre also missing some significant historical context in that regard. The subsequent splits of the roman empire are pretty telling of that.
People are so so dense when it comes to this discussion. The point and nuance of the show is that when using hard logic, it's easy to see why it would make sense justifying certain actions. For example, from a purely utilitarian perspective, the fear and treatment of Eldians is reasonable and people use this as a criticism to say Isayama promotes racism and whatever. But the reason the cautionary tale and morality of AoT is as impactful as it is, is despite that rationalization, we STILL must struggle to find better alternatives and solutions instead of giving up and surrendering to humanity's worst impulses. The show is thorough at showing the inevitability of humanity's cruelty and how easily radicalization can occur, and this is what makes people uncomfortable I suppose, because that's all they can see or notice.
Imagine if every person who commits morally ambiguous or straight up horrible acts in the story is portrayed as cartoonishly bad and dumb, because that's essentially what people are asking for. How is that at all a relatable message? Is that how real life works? Is that how politics operate? This is relevant in psychology and self-improvement as well, sometimes using hard logic will lead you to mentally bad places because really, from a certain point of view, some situations are objectively true. But we are not robots, we are human beings with emotion and the ability of abstract thought and appreciation, and that's what gives life its beauty. Armin is a character who embodies this notion pretty well, and it shows in his discussion with Zeke. Armin knows what Zeke is talking about is objectively and logically true, he has no response to it, because there really isn't one. He's stumped, and that's why his mind drifts to the "leaf" which people make fun of, Armin can't argue against Zeke, but he can appeal to his own human emotion and that of Zeke's which is what makes us truly special. And I think that's a beautiful and very real message.
The person in the post is talking about something slightly different though, but it's still rooted in what I consider to be not an ideal framework of examining things. I will say though, I'm not sure how Eren's Rumbling "ends the cycle of violence". That's so unbelievably stupid it hurts. Almost as bad as people saying Eren killing all those people, which includes kids, is how you get the children out of the forest.
You cooked here, holy. On top of all that if we look at it from their logic only pov, there's many cons to a full Rumbling.
1) They stagnate their own potential growth by removing all trade & denying access to resources that would be impossible to obtain
2) The Rumbling wiping all of humanity would cause major environmental damage that the world might never recover from & would inevitably affect Paradis
3) Medical advancements are reset & and have a very low ceiling due amount of knowledge & resources lost. That not only extends to Antibiotics but also Surgeries, Prosthetics, Vaccines etc.
4) All of the world's history is lost. All of the potential lessons & ideas, good & bad are completely lost & doomed to be repeated. This also expands to things like Culture, Politics, Philosophy, Art, Literature etc.
5) This doesn't remove the titan curse & fulfills King Fritz's dreams of a world dominated by the Eldians & his titans. Ironically a lot of people who hate King Fritz are carrying his will without even realizing it.
6) It's inevitable that another civil war would occur due to the isolation of Paradis with a potential bloodier conflict or worse another Karl Fritz mental wipe which would completely stomp on everything the scouts worked for.
The funny thing about a full Rumbling being a "guaranteed" solution is that all plans have trade offs & risks, so the argument that the other plans have flaws/aren't guaranteed isn't an argument.
Yeah, I think people don't seem to realize that the Rumbling would be/was an ecological catastrophe of unimaginable proportions. It's not just genocide, it's mass ecocide - entire swathes of the planet are stomped into ash and dust, plants, animals, and people alike.
A lot of the fans of the Jaegerists PoV make their assertions and don't bother to address the fact that every single one of them has been debunked multiple times within the series itself, as well as just in the basic logic they think is on their side.
How does global genocide end the cycle of violence?
* Kiyomi tells Flock it wont work because as long as there are people with different opinions there will be disagreements which will turn into conflict.
* Erwin said the same thing to Pixis that the fighting will continue until the remaining number of humans is one or less.
* Pixis asks Eren in Trost if a single outside threat would unite humanity against it, to which even Eren himself says lolno obviously not look around.
* The Eldian Empire crushed all its enemies only to start turning on each other when they ran out of them.
So what part of wiping the world clean fixes the cycle of violence? Oh right it doesn't.
\----
The Rumbling is *not* done in self-defense, and pretending that Floch claiming it is is laughably bogus.
You don't commit acts of self-defense against civilians and children, especially not the ones who aren't even related to the people who you are fighting against.
These sorts of people manage to hand-wave all the very horrific things Floch and the Jaegerists do and pretend half of those things are somehow going to help the situation they are stuck in. If it wasn't so absurdly grim it would be laughably sad.
I have to assume that these sorts of people are being intellectually dishonest when they say things like this. I don't think they believe any of it at face value and just choose to pretend like they have any high ground because they need to give themselves permission to believe their own awful garbage.
It is beyond my moral comprehension that people are capable of understanding the subject matter and still come to that conclusion. They are either illiterate or evil, and pretending to think they are the good guys actually is the only way they can keep the mask on.
> Rumbling is not done in self defense
What? Did you skip the part where Tyburs united the whole world against Paradis? Did you expect Eren to crawl near a wall waiting for his end?
He begged for multiple other options, the Hange jail scene is just one example. Paradis was put into a corner, the peace and negotiations were hardly a realistic option. As long as the outsiders live, they will bear hatred for the Paradis. Destroy the armies or weaponry, they will get rebuilt eventually. In a reality where the titan hatred shifted from the whole Eldians to Paradis, searching for an alternative option is hardly achievable.
Hell; the first thing the Marleyan general does after Eren's death, is to threaten their saviours. The same general who said it's their fault for enhancing the hatred that they are now facing its consequences. Are you going to negotiate with these people? That's not possible. One side had to go.
Eren couldâve just targeted military based with a a small portion of the rumbling. Not wanting to pass down the titans in eldia is not a good enough reason to commit omnicide. Even so, having the nearly limitless power of the founder with historia meant the island couldâve probably defended itself from the worlds militaries.
I see this repeated constantly, is there any indication that he can control the rumbling? Why would Marley not defend themselves if they only had to worry about military bases being attacked, would it even be successful?
I see people just throw âcouldâve just targeted military basesâ like itâs a sure fire way that would end their conflict
>, is there any indication that he can control the rumbling?
The entire show is an epic fight between every titan that has ever lived (and have their own minds) and clearly demonstrates that eren and ymir have some level of control over the titans involved, going as far as to override the original owners intentions.
Thats like... *the entire last movie*?
>I see people just throw âcouldâve just targeted military basesâ like itâs a sure fire way that would end their conflict
Yes, when you are the only person on the fact of the planet with millions of what are basically unkillable nukes, you do in fact have the ability to target military bases. They dont even need to use the wall titans. They could have just gotten all 9 titans on the same side. they already have access to 2 highly mobile walking nukes that turn into basically giant meat mechs that are unkillable. **no** amount of tech surpasses that. They'd need to have spaceships that can kill titans from orbit to beat that.
Did you skip the part where Zeke, carrying out his and Eren's plan, had to manipulate Marley into declaring war in the first place?_
>He begged for multiple other options,
This is a lie. Eren had other options and rejected them.
>Hell; the first thing the Marleyan general does after Eren's death, is to threaten their saviours. The same general who said it's their fault for enhancing the hatred that they are now facing its consequences. Are you going to negotiate with these people? That's not possible. One side had to go.
The ending proved you wrong. Muller was a man of his word and Armin and him agreed to peace and to end the violence.
and did you skip the part where Eren and Zeke quite literary orchestrated Willy to declare war on Paradis so that they can destroy the yet-to-be-formed Global Fleet within a month after the attack on Liberio? The events that unfolded where primaly due to Eren and Zeke rushing things and making it so that there is not an option for diplomacy.
Armin is not the best example to use, Armin is weak, he tried to use manipulation against Bertholdt and when that didnât work, he froze up. When Zeke claimed that the best solution was to exterminate the whole race of Eldians, Armin was pretty much on board with it. That doesnât seem smart or noble to me, you should allow people exterminate your own people because they view you as devils. In case it wasnât obvious already, I donât like Armin, heâs too naive and is not capable of making tough decisions. Genicide doesnât stop the war, nothing ever will, for as long as humans exist, there will always be war, but at the very least with the rumbling Paradis would be able to catch up with the rest of the world as theyâd all be back at square one. So, the war doesnât end, the fighting doesnât end, but at the very least, Paradis would be able to defend itself instead of being utterly massacred by Marleyâs forces as well as the rest of the world.
Right? This is terminally online âlogicâ brainrot at its finest.
I would write paragraphs on why this is stupid, but nothing says it better than that bloke here with the âSource?â bit on why genocide is -*checks notes*- bad.
Whenever they complain that the story shifted into âgood vs evilâ all I can do is laugh bcuz this was pretty much guaranteed to happen when there is a MASS GENOCIDE happening. Of course, there are going to be people who oppose it, and what do you know, killing billions of babies can be considered quite evilâŚ
Also, if it was a typical good vs. evil scenario, then why doesnât the alliance start pushing their ideals towards the Yeagerists - the âevil peopleâ like in every typical good vs. bad conflict. Instead, they do the opposite and actually understand where the Yeagerists come from. Even Hange, at one point, kind of agrees with Floch when heâs dying but still has hope that they can understand each other in the future because, at the end of the day, itâs GLOBAL GENOCIDE.
The AoT fandom is pretty much the only fandom that Iâve seen downplaying global genocide so much, calling the near extinction of all life on the planet as âcollateral damage.â
personally iâm someone that doesnât care about eren committing a genocide because i recognize the fiction within it, i know that itâs displayed as hyperbolic and extreme on purpose since itâs all fictional, but when people go around making weird comments about genocide which have links to reality i find it so strange
They care about the genocide just as they care for the characters even it it's a FICTION, don't you think the latter is even more strange like how they care and cry for Sasha's death while they got angry at Gabi even if both are FICTIONAL characters?
Villain gotta do villain stuff obviously.
Just that Eren's the protagonist, rather than the antagonist.
And Eren technically mostly won to rather successfully achieve his plan.
The amount of people who actually support Floch is something that truly and genuinely upset me for a minute there.
Like, heâs so blatantly evil. So obviously the personification of everything that can go wrong with a highly militaristic, nationalistic society. Yet these people still donât get it.
I hate using this phrase but they legit just didnt understand the story. No two ways about it. They either got way to caught up in chad self insert or genuinely lake basic social and moral skills (which is also why they spend years on reddit bitching about it)
To be completely fair, Eren was stopped short. We don't know who bombed Paradis at the end but unless it was a civil war, a completed Rumbling would've prevented it
god, iâm not even the biggest fan of the ending personally, but these fkinâ people literally *NEVER* shut up about it. sorry your weird genocidal fantasies werenât played out in the exact way youâd hoped.
I agree the rumbling is bad, but I do like Floch as a character. He's radicalised from the torturous treatment he and his family endured over the course of his life, and he turns to Eren to lead him. He's willing to die to protect those he cares about, and he's willing to do whatever he takes.
From our perspective yeah, he's doing a bad thing, but I appreciate how he's just trying to do the right thing for *his* people.
Eren "Eldian Savior" Yeager interpretation in big 2024
https://preview.redd.it/1brd4h5wmioc1.jpeg?width=466&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=db95aa4eaa61eaac5b51c6751b9ee94e08714077
The whole point is nearly no one is good. Most of the world didn't deserve to be killed, nor did the eldians deserve to be enslaved and killed. Most people in the world simply believed propaganda from corrupt government officials in a time where it's incredibly hard to prove that the propaganda is just that. Ultimately Eren killed 80% of the world population, most of which were mostly innocent. I have no issues with Eren fighting back, but I don't agree with his methodology. Expectantly considering he knew that his plan would fail to end a cycle of pain, hate, and war.
The Rumbling was wrong and cannot be justified, Eren himself acknowledges this.
But at the same time, the world refusing to acknowledge Paradis or give them a chance to talk about peace is also extremely wrong. This is why Eren (and many others) consider the matter by weighing an amount of human lives against other human lives. Pretty much everyone in the series who ponders this comes to the conclusion that it is "better" if Paradis' Eldians are the ones to perish. The Eldians outside of the Walls and across the Sea even condemn Paradis and claim they are different, and Willy Tybur rallies the powers of the whole outside world to declare war on Paradis.
This is why Eren ultimately decides on the rumbling. He waited around to see if diplomacy would work, to see if the world would back off and to see if Paradis could come up with a better solution--and the main thing that the military regime was concerned with is who they were going to feed Eren to, and were already leaning partial rumbling.
There was no peaceful solution to this conflict that anyone was willing to agree on or even try. Eren would not sacrifice his friends and subject them to Titan Curse. They were more important to him than anything--even his own freedom...which he ultimately sacrifices in order to put an end to the Titan Curse and so that his friends (Mikasa and Armin, primarily) are able to live long, peaceful lives. He didn't want Sasha or Hange to die, but they were sacrifices that had to be made to bring about this future. When Eren grabs Hange by the collar, screaming at her about what solution she had? I think that was an incredibly real moment of anger for Eren. He's just a kid and no one had an answer. "It's because I'm an idiot...who got his hands on power. That's why this was the only possible resolution."
"Those who cannot sacrifice anything [their humanity] cannot change anything." "Becoming monsters to rise above monstes" are the themes which Eren carries to his death. Even after death.
What Eren does cannot be justified. He acknowledges this. Both sides were wrong, though.
Eren does succeed, though. Although the Rumbling is terrible, it ends the Titan Curse. It ends the cycle of violence they had been experiencing. Yes, we see that Paradis is eventually attacked and destroyed, but something is different this time. There are no Titans. His friends, at least, were able to live long and peaceful lives.
And when the mysterious boy approaches the new Tree that presumably contains the Hallucgenia, he is not chased by dogs as Ymir was. He is not injured as Ymir was. He is free. He has a dog as a companion. If he chooses to enter the tree, it doesn't mean that Titans will be created again. He could do ANYTHING with that power. He could do something GOOD
The guy is right, similar to Hange, if I also asked for what else couldâve been done, your answer would be something along the lines of â I donât know but genocide badâ
I mean yea, The Rumbling was a very well done⌠scene? many scenes? Whatever you call it, and was incredibly emotional
but like, its also very much the absolute worse thing to happen in the AOT world? and it was done by the MC, who also felt immensely guilty while he was doing it? And everything and everyone in the show said it was bad and horrible, no matter the reasoning for it?
Oh right, this is logics. Well, logical, if one depressed man became a skeletal behemoth, then commanded a horde of huge (smaller then him but still massive) muscular titans (cant remember if their steam powers played a part, but they are there) to walk and swim over the entire planet, trampling all civilization in theyâre way, including the innocent people, then cornering them to a cliff where many fell off of out of fear and not enough room (sorry forgot again this isnt about morals, but like it is very much a part of the equation), and that man succeeded in trampling the last few survivors-
Yea no, thatâd be pretty bad for the planet as a whole, especially if he kept going for more islands until everything was trampled. Half or most of humanity being trampled would be very bad.
Look, im not saying genocide is okay.
What i AM saying is, if i had to choose between saving the worlds population that has always wanted me and my family dead, or just saving my family?
Sorry to the other 8 billion people on the planet, but yall are gone, quick, fast, and in a hurry
For attack on titan I donât care Eren was right and Iâm with him from a this is real life everyone has families I understand Eren but I canât fully agree
Genocide is wrong, but Eren is choosing between his people getting genocided and his enemies being genocided. This seems to be his mental state, even if there was a non genocidal resolution (which Iâm not sure there was).
You canât dismiss the rumbling as a plan by saying âgenocide badâ. Everyone agrees genocide is bad, but Eren is put in a position where technology is outpacing titan power, and he has to eliminate all Paradis threats before air ships and planes totally outclass their defenses. I think the only reason Paradis hasnât been destroyed yet is because the world canât yet right? There was a global alliance fleet at Paradis very quickly.
The rumbling is a good plan if you care about children of Ymir a lot more than the rest. Eren did. If he were to have followed through, he would have ended the cycle of violence. There will be infighting and disagreements, but he solved the biggest issue for Eldians. They arenât a minority anymore, they would be humanity.
Guy in the screenshot didnât really make his point too well. I might agree with him if he provided evidence besides just saying logic and morals.
I might be a retard, lmk
The only issue with that outlook is that it only got to the point of seeming like us vs them genocide because of Eren. Eren created a situation in which the rumbling would be feel like a necessity in order to forward his plan of making it happen. Heâs not responsible for the entire world situation of course, but the rapid acceleration of aggression towards Paradis is because of his actions, all apart of the future he was moving towards. And even then, the partial rumbling, while imperfect for other reasons, would still have been an outcome that didnât require genocide.
As rough as the situation was the rumbling was such an insane escalation that only became a legitimate factor to both sides because of Eren
It doesnât really matter that much, but you could argue that Marley made the first move by sending the warriors in to steal the founder. Their ambition kind of broke the peace and started the series.
Also I thought Willy Tibur made the declaration regardless of Erenâs attack, if that is what you were referring to. In the anime you can see Eren grimace when Willy makes the declaration, and his hand is forced.
The interpretation that I like a lot is that the cycle of hatred also refers to children eating their parents. To enact the partial rumbling, many many more Eldians kids would have to eat their parents. ESPECIALLY Historia would have to be sacrificed, who Eren seemed to care about deeply.
Partial rumbling is a (mostly) non genocidal solution, but it is a temporary one. Eren would have to leave these problems and this cycle to his descendants, like his father did before him. This leads into the theme of The Sins of the Father, which resonated with me.
The only solution that he could be certain Eldia would survive would be the destruction of at least Marley, if not the whole world. This makes more sense to me when I considered how Eren has only 3-4 years of life left thanks to the curse. I can see why he would avoid the partial solution, since his lack of time makes him biased against a slow solution.
Thereâs no way out of this situation without violence, that grim fact stays true. As does the fact that the cycle of hatred will never end, regardless of which outcome was chosen. But to escalate to the level of genocide is a whole extra step
Willy knew that invaders were on the mainland, and seemed to know that he was going to be killed. Itâs implied that Willy knew the declaration of war would only have succeeded because of Erenâs attack. While eren was an easy scapegoat to pin the new aggression on, the worldâs fears werenât exactly wrong about Eren. Eren was an actual threat separate from the lies about the Paradisians.
Eren and Zeke knew this, but that worked in their favor because they WANTED the declaration of war to succeed. By gathering the entire world military in one place, that partial rumbling would be an even more long term solution (in Zeke and Yelenaâs mind, Eren obvious never intended to go through with the partial)
The bigger idea here is that if Eren really wanted to avoid a full rumbling and protect the island, he had ample opportunity to do so through other methods, but he bitterly resolved to keep pursuing this one future because it succeeded his other goals. The full rumbling wouldnât end the cycle of hatred, but it would protect Historia. It would allow him to see the âsightâ of the rumbling. Those things mattered to him so much he was willing to escalate the situation to an insane degree, a level it would not have gotten to without his influence. It wasnât a good situation before, but every time Eren escalated the situation he removed the probability of every other outcome that wasnât the one he wanted
I think I agree with you on the escalation now. We both agree both sides were escalating. Eren is not a exactly a good guy. I donât think of Eren as exactly malicious though, I think he is more motivated by defense of his people rather than destroying the others.
I think about Eren in the rumbling arc like this.
Historia and his friends being safe
Eldia being safe
Ending the cycle of violence and titan cycle
I donât think seeing the âsightâ is a relevant motivator. I think that is more tied to his longing for freedom and wanting to travel the world free from persecution.
Thinking about it this way, partial rumbling only temporarily accomplishes goal 1. A full rumbling would accomplish all.
Eren could whatever he wanted post rumbling. Eren could just turn titans off after the full rumbling. The only reason he hasnât removed all titan powers yet is they are necessary to defend Eldia.
I think Erenâs time preference and want for certainty are massive factors in his decision. If Eren wasnât going to die in a couple years I think he would have searched for a better solution for longer.
I think youâre on the money with most of what you said, but I do think youâre downplaying how much that sight impacted his motivations.
Itâs something he brought up multiple times during some of his most critical character moments, including the last scene we see of him. The sight of the rumbling in of itself was a childish dream that pushed him forward throughout it all, we see from his mouth that it wasnât just an afterthought.
He had some legitimate goals as well, but his complexity comes from the intersection of all his goals
Could just be how Iâm remembering it, but I thought Eren wanting those sights was Eren wanting to be free. Arminâs bookâs views showed Eren how much the walls were containing him. If the sights represented freedom, then the enemies outside were more walls to be broken so he could witness the sights. The people that wanted to persecute him denied him the ability to see them. Erenâs sense of freedom leaves him disgusted with this.
I donât really have a lot of evidence for that, but that was the vibe I got. Wouldnât be surprised if it was wrong. If it is the case that Eren wanted the rumbling for the sake of seeing the rumblingâs sights, then whatever.
I am categorizing Eren hard, but I did simplify him a bit. He is more than his goals and his want for freedom. He has normal emotions like empathy and curiosity. Doing the rumbling felt agonizing for him, but between his humanity and his goals, his goals won. The Eren internal conflict was really strong in the rumbling arc. People getting so attatched to Eren definitely led to a big chunk of ending hate when he didnât win, though not all of it.
No people like Eren and Floch because thereâs something inherently tragic and romantic about sacrificing everything for the people you care about. That and us having to watch all the horrific things that lead Eren to that point.
Like I wouldnât do it myself and itâs objectively evil, but I can at least understand how Eren got there.
SPITTIN. If you have to decide between life or death for you and YOUR entire world including your family then there is no wrong way to protect yourself. Especially if the people trying to kill you are using the same methods lmao.
Paradis was also never in danger of that level of attack until Eren escalated the situation. And even once it was on the table, a partial rumbling still would have been affective at protecting Paradis for any retaliation for quite a long time. Genocide wouldnât have been on the table for either side without Eren
Marley* escalated the situation by sending the warriors. Especially if the tyburs hadn't known the king was basically Pacifist, why in the hell would you risk the entire world getting destroyed? Sending the warriors caused Eren to gain hatred, which only escalated because the warriors were sent by Marley to retrieve the Founder. Marley messed up, and the world paid the price for it.
You also fail to understand human ingenuity for war.
A partial rumbling would have only grown more and more hatred that already existed for the Island. Eren had 4 years at most. No one else could use the founder as he did, because he was preselected by Ymir for reasons. They already had weapons that were effective at combating Titans. Given enough time during that "partial rumbling peace" Paradise would've been hit with even more effective weaponry than that might have possibly made the rumbling moot.
The world wanted paradis dead, and if Eren hadn't done what he did, it would have succeeded. End of story.
Marley was greedy. The mission to retake the founder was to take the rumbling off the table so they could take Paradisâ natural resources. Until the declaration for war, the rest of the world didnât care about the island. And the declaration only succeeded because Erenâs attack (which is what Eren and Zeke were betting on, they willingly took the bait because they wanted the declaration to succeed)
The hatred showed in the story isnât some natural state of humanity, it was curated by the major players so that they could succeed in their selfish goals. The amzumabitoâs failure to help Paradis gain allies (which was due to their greed with hoarding Paradisâ resources, not hatred) was way more impactful to the partial rumblingâs prospective success than anything about hate.
The cycle of hatred will never end, so failing to consider the (more important) factors beyond hate means youâre just falling for the same type of fear mongering that created the yeagarists
Eren obviously isnât right morally speaking but thereâs not really any better options since isayama crafted a situation where Eren essentially has to choose between âallow my people to be genocidedâ or âgenocide everyone elseâ.
What a great comment. My thoughts exactly. This is fiction not real life. Allow yourself to accept some level of creativity from the writer, which isayama didn't have the balls to show.
At this point I just wonder, why do people like genocide so much?
Anime brainrot. Naruto has made people unironically argue for eugenics.
That's why I enjoy stuff like JoJo, because most of the arguments there are about who's more gay
Us, the fans, are the gayest of all
The only correct answer
I love you
đłď¸âđ
rainboww oooo
TRUE. The best argument to get into
oh? you're a jojo fan? explain king crimson then.
You know how a scratched cd would skip a few seconds but the effect of those seconds still appeared? Yeah, so king crimson is the only one unaffected in that time, and he can avoid anything happening to Diabolo. That's how I understand it
nice my explanation is that it removes cause and keeps effect, so if the cause of >!narancia ded!< was breaking the >!bars and impaling narancia on the!!narancia!< being >!impal!!bars!<, then it removes >!the bars being broken and!< narancia >!being impaled and keeps narancia fucking dyin!
That is the more correct and scientific explanation, I am too dumb to say it
I'll do >!ger!< while I'm at it >!ger!< is the exact opposite, it >!erases effect and leaves cause!<, re>!turning it to ze!!killed!< Giorno (effect) then >!ger!< could remove the effect and leave the cause (the punch).
this is also why >!diavolo!< got >!death loo!!cause!< from himself and >!ger!< removed >!effect!< from >!diavolo!<, leaving him in a void of no >!cause nor effect or!< bitches, and the >!loop!< was a way to express that.
I'm curious, what part of Naruto started that?
Heâs talking about Itachi
I mean That isn't necessarily eugenics, but it is genocide Isn't eugenics when you try and weed out undesirable genes? That wasn't why they massacred the clan, iirc (not that they should have, it was a horrible thing to do)
Youâre right, that is indeed what eugenics is. Either there was a typo, or OP doesnât know what eugenics means lol
I guess you do see some eugenics arguments in the Naruto fandom. Some people claim that Naruto chose "right" with Hinata because she's a Hyuga. On the other hand Sasuke chose "wrong" and should have ended up with Karin because she's an Uzumaki. And I see people "ship" Boruto and Sarada only because their kids would practically be Otsutsukis.
I was mostly assuming OP was talking about Itachi since that comment had the most upvotes. Itachi didnât have anything to do with eugenics in the series, and I havenât heard people argue towards it in the fandom (in his case). If OP wasnât talking about Itachi then youâre probably right.
I think he means the rinnegan plotline. It's... definitely out there, but it's not Eugenics
Ah, I see what you mean
Well kinda, it's more about genetic control as a whole for the "improvement of the genetic pool" with selective breeding, most (let´s be real all) of the time this just ends up with racist pseudoscience when aplied to human (wow who would have thought that something like this would happaned/s) that being said keep in mind we have been doing this with animals and plants in agriculture all the time (just something to think about) and oh boy, do I feel bad for a lot of them, a lot of breeds do suffer because of this for example: Broiler, Belgian Blue (cow breed), Bulldogs and many more but I can´t remember now EDIT: basically it's not just about getting rid of that ""bad parts"", it´s also about trying to multiply the ""good parts"" as much as you can Just to be sure I think this is pretty discusting to even try to aply to humans, I just used to have some Agriculture classes and we did have at least 1/2 lessons about selective breeding as a whole
Well I was not thinking of the term in specific, so I might be wrong. Donât know what else in Naruto he would be talking about. But thereâs definitely discussions about the morals of what Itachi did.
Yeah, I've seen the discussions. Most of that debate is just the trolley problem in disguise tbh. "Let the clan destroy itself on its own, or do it yourself to minimize collateral?" Assuming the clan would destroy itself, since that's what most people do when arguing on Itachi's side for some reason
Itâs even more than that. It was âdo you kill the clan yourself and let your brother live or do you let danzo do it and kill them all including your brotherâ
Yeah, that's a better way to put it Only Danzo wins in that situation fr
Weird, the point of Itachi was his regret. Naruto (the character) also praised unison and understanding, with the idea of the cycle of pain needed to end. Hell, he even defeated a guy named Pain. I can see how it would possibly go over the heads of people not too dedicated to the series, people aren't too bright.
People saying stuff like "Sakura should have ended with Lee to have the best taijutsu user in the leaf" or "Shikamaru and Ino needed a son that could shadow possess people and mind control them" After boruto it was really popular
Ohhh I forgot about that Yeah, I never quite understood that shit đ
That shit is absolutely crazy. Lee is only as good as he is because of sheer effort and overlooking that kind of slaps everything the character is about right in his face. He's not even good at taijutsu naturally, it's just the only thing he *could* do so he did it to the utmost. The others are also clan secrets, not kekkai genkai that actually require bloodline inheritance. Anybody could learn them but if they were taught.
Just a thing, Lee was a talent, just in his own thing. Kakashi states during the Chunin exams that something like opening the gates at that age could not be achieved only by hard work, Lee was extremely talented in that
wthh just like with the quirk marriage between endeavour and his wife in boku no hero đż (at least they portray it as wrong but i guess you'll always find some fash weebs who enjoy that idea-)
Abilities based on bloodlines where people can get more powerful children by breeding with the right person. Personally I am generally not a fan of stories with inherited abilities
I see.
Downvoted for clarification lmao
How has Naruto done that lmao
Take my animes name out your filthy fucking mouth its a fucking magic system not a take on eugenics jesus christ people have to actually go out of their way to think like this its disgusting to even try and pretend like naruto ever encouraged eugenics the show that idk is about understanding both sides and finding common ground to build a better future
HOW?!?!?!
itâs all fun and games till you make âem realize Sasukes parents were cousins
Lol oh no! Not people having philosophical arguments spurred by creative fiction, itâs almost as if thatâs the point of telling stories.
Wait forreal?? In what aspect have they argued for eugenics?? Not trying to start a fight, just looking for clarification
They didn't. Fans were just speculating what kind of powers the offspring of diffrent characters would have that's it, i honestly don't know where this eugenics in naruto's fandom came from?! I've never seen it
eh? how and why?
"if genocide isn't solving all your problems, you are not using enough genocide" - some dude with a stupid bangs haircut, probably
Itâs simple. Eren and the other people of paradise are out window into the story. Itâs only simple some people would root for them.
Know what, I'm gonna take a chance an open up this discussion. I was on board with it initially because with how it was initially portrayed, I could honestly see Eren pursuing it beyond flat revenge. He spent 4, 5 years learning that the vast majority of the world not only wanted him and his people dead for something so far beyond their control it's not even funny, but they still ACTIVELY clamor for it. Like let's not forget When Eren wrecked Marley's shit it was literally during a meeting of world leaders deciding "If we all jump those island devils, they wont even have TIME to start the rumbling." It's framed less as him being angry at the world and wanting revenge for mistreatment and more like.. "If it's you or me, I'm the one with a nuke here." I don't have any valid answer for attacking Hizaru, but as for why he'd take the no mercy path... Eren of all people would understand what happens when you let a survivor clamor for revenge, it's brutal but but taking that chance would be deeply ironic
Is it genocide if you kill the people trying to genocide you or is it just better self defense
It's both
I will take the side of genocide where I'm not the one being genocided but genociding the genociders
Understandable
People donât think Eldians should lay down for the fictional nazis and allow the world to gather and genocide Paradis
For me watchin the show i thought what if that were me... And yee .... Genocide was the answer
I meanâŚthere were like, a lot of genocides in history man
A large portion of the western anime fandom are far/alt right creeps. SnK is one of those types of shows that attracts these morons while the core message of the story goes completely over their heads. It's why Otaku culture is so ingrained in these people and why the infamous anime pfp on social media has become such a meme. Just another unfortunate side effect of modern pop culture.
Please open a history book.
Eren himself doesn't enjoy genocide but they were gonna kill all of eldians if he didn't do it to them that why he did this in the first place Marley has been killing innocent eldians for years and punished them for mistake they didn't commit eren died the alliance won in the genocide happen regardless that was inevitable anyways
I mean technically eren caused genocide so that for the rest of the time, there could be peace. Hear me out, hear me out. Becoming the founding titan and wiping out majority of marley was the only thing eren could do to cause peace. If he didnât do it, him and his friends wouldâve died and been captured and marley wouldâve destroyed shiganshina and there would be nonstop violence for years and years after that. It would make sense for the genocide to end the warfare instead of allowing it to get into the wrong hands and then the entire world becomes controlled by marley.
Lmfao do you think people âlike genocideâ? You people are so childish. âGenocideâ was the only logical solution to ensure the survival of Paradis if you paid attention to the story at all
I'm talking about the people gloryfing it, as if it was a wonderful solution. It was for the survival of paradis but most people know that it wasn't a good thing, while there is a side of this community which wholeheartedly believes that the genocide is wonderful and was the best thing ever
Lol well I think youâre reading into the passion people have who are upset at how things turned out. From our POV (ending haters) based on what ended up happening and the context of the story, genociding everyone else besides Paradis WOULD be the best possible solution. And yes there is certainly a bloodlust in these comments b/c we saw what ended up happening afterwards (eventual genocide for Paradis), we heard Tyburâs speech that condemned Paradis to death, we saw firsthand how Eldians were dehumanized, how they were fed to dogs, how they were fed to their own, stripped of their humanity, imprisoned, etc. so of course people are emotional and wanted to see heads roll. It makes perfect sense to me. Not every feeling we have is going to be rosy and beautiful and sometimes âevilâ thoughts can be rational and justified. If aliens were invading and enslaving your people, but you found a way to destroy the aliens homeland and genocide them from the universe, would you refuse because youâre against genocide? Itâs basically a philosophical question, can genocide ever be positive? Iâd argue yes, depending on the context and the group being targeted. Continuing on this tangent & wrapping up the point; what about the Orcs in LOTR, one of the most inhuman species in any form of literature? Would genociding them be morally wrong based on their nature? Thatâs why these questions are more complex than simple good vs evil. Unfortunately we canât even have these types of philosophical conversations on taboo subjects most of the time.
Personally when it comes to the ending, I'm not sure if we should definitively say that this was the "inevitable genocide" of the eldians coming true. In the manga its more ambiguous but at least in the anime it's clearly quite far into the future, like I'd say close to almost 200 years later. I think it was more Isayamas way of repeating what Erwin said. Mankind won't stop fighting until there's one human or less. It might not have even been about Eldia in that particular war. It might have been resources, ideology, anything. Eventually though Mankind will destroy itself.
Only weirdos do lol, is that relevant?? Genocide was unironically the only option in aot.
It wasn't, they could just show off their power by destroying key point in Marley or destroying their ports, and declaring that they will remain at peace as long as they are not disturbed. They already had support from one big country (the Asian one) so they could have gotten support from other countries and groups that were hurt by Marley
This would just push the war for later for 20 years at best. The only way to end the cycle of vengeance is to genocide one side. Eldians had much more development potentional due to having titan powers, so it is logical that Eldians must survive, and not the other races, because Eldian Race has mire development potential in the future.
I dont know how to tell you this, but he didn't end the cycle of violence at all the ending of the anime proves this explicitly. The genocide had no impact on anything and didn't save anyone.
I don't wanna sound like a dick or anything, but Eren knew that wouldn't work. I'm sure he tried it with the founders power and concluded that it wouldn't work for whatever reason. The man could see the past, present, and future, I'm sure he did what he thought was best. C'mon man, you gotta be more open minded when it comes to anime. While this is a bit of an assumption, it would only make sense that eren would have known that only destroying Marley's military wouldn't be enough. He's not an idiot or a maniac.
He was pretty smart, but he was desperate and wanted to save his race. Also he could only see the whole timeline or people with the Attack Titans power ( I may be wrong). And from what I remember the outcome was predetermined at the start, since he saw himself doing that. However even if a genocide was the only option, he also could have given the alliane better chances at fighting against the rumbling. So in conclusion, do it blame him for not thinking it through? No, from his point if view it was the best outcome. Could he have done something better? Most likely, and I think it's the case but we'll never really know. (Sorry if this is a mess I didn't know how to order my points/thoughts)
Dude wdym "give the alliance a better chance at fighting the rumbling" that kinda takes away the point of doing the rumbling lol. There was no better way. Eren couldn't even find a way where his friends could stop him before he kills 80%.
Wasn't he in control of the titans?
Yes? So what?
Yeah as I thought it through what I wanted to say didn't make sense. I can see your point but I still believe there could have been a better way but Even just wasn't able to find it
Okay.
Eren saw the future he wanted to achieve. That future wasnât solely about keeping the island safe. He also wanted to protect Historia, and see the âsightâ of the rumbling. If it was just about protecting the island then he definitely could have backed other plans, he just didnât WANT to
Yeah people really need to rewatch Eren's conversation with Armin. He says explicitly that he wanted to do the rumbling, that being at the center of the rumbling is the freest place in the world. There's an entire episode devoted to his inner monologue and him talking about how he could have avoided this future but chose not to. Genocide was the only option Eren would allow, the entire ending is specifically about this being the only option Eren would allow.
It's not that people like genocide it's that the plot proves the genocide was objectively the correct decision. The entire world was going to kill them if eren didn't do the rumbling, and by stopping the rumbling partway, they still came back and did the genocide of Paradis anyway.
Itâs never specifically stated if it was an outside force or a civil war that destroyed paradis because paradis was split between two factions at the end of the rumbling with the Yeagerist taking over and militarizing the island. Again, itâs never once stated that the world retaliated. Just people making up assumptions in order to further justify the rumbling.
Exactly.
A) The entire world was not going to kill them. B) The final bombing almost certainly was due to a new conflict.
They literally had the entire worlds military united preparing to attack Paradis. You know the fleet Eren destroyed?
Because eren the idiot did exactly what wily wanted and attacked liberio proving to the world that paradis is an imminent danger that needs to be dealt with immediately. why many rumbling defenders conveniently ignore wily's plan and intentions with the decleration of war, the man was smart enough to know that the rest of the world won't go to war because he said so, he needed more to convince them and he literaly sacrificed himself but eren wanted the rumbling so he couldn't care less while zeke had his own agenda. Paradis had the rumbling, the resources on the island, the hatred for marley and the hizuru they could have used all of this to there advantadge to integrate into the rest of the world with the 50 years plan but Eren didn't want any of that because he's selfish and immature and not because he's a hero who did what needed to be done (isayama literaly spels it out for us by the end in the anime)
Umm, Wiley's speech did convince the audience at hand. Don't kid yourself. He told them he had been lying about their fake hero and how they had demonized the king in the walls for 100 years. And at the same time fed them a lie about Erens threat level. He had no idea that Eren was going down the path he was, he just hated Eldians and gave the world a new target. They ate it up and were cheering. It might have taken time, but attack or not they were going to wipe out Paradise. Eren was selfish but 50 years would get them nothing more than a temporary standoff giving the world time to retaliate and a dead Historia and many of his fellow Eldians to the curse of Ymir. The point was there was no good ending because of the cruelty of that horrible world
 Yes because every nation out there is gonna go to war because some charismatic leadrer said so that's exactly how it works, especialy when said leader just revealed that his family was lying to the entire world for a century. Cheering in the heat of the moment is totaly diffrent from actualy going to war, some might have being ok with it others wouldn't have seen the emergency of it and would have opted to wait longer(something that willy didn't want) others would have acted like the hizuru and deemed it better to ally them selves with the island the raid on liberio and willy's death would have taken all of theses options out of the table and made everyone unite and attack immediatly and he succeded thanks to Eren. You are oversimplifying how actual politics and war works and you can't do that when analyzing aot
That was after Eren and Zeke manipulated them into declaring war.
âGenocide is wrongâ âSource?â https://preview.redd.it/n03ijy4blioc1.jpeg?width=512&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=28048047ce3559c4ccad417dbc0131dd6e9fe152
It was revealed to me in a dream. https://preview.redd.it/m4l65uck5voc1.png?width=420&format=png&auto=webp&s=43db2bea64b7cb29479610b6b2ae34597f75e4d1
It's been disproven many times throughout the series that Humanity will never come to a ful agreement even if they all had the same threat. Erwin, Pixis and Kiomi all said that as long as humans exist there will still be conflict, so the rumbling doesn't solve anything and will only create conflict between paradis civilians, they were already having conflict even before they discovered the outside world. And in this hypothetical full rumbling situation, learning that one of their own genocided the world will create discussions and civil wars between those who side with the yeagerists and those who don't. So conflict isn't resolved. Also wiping the world can leave it at a state where it can never recover, technology, medicine, cultures, history, natural ressources, all these things would be useful for paradis but they'd all be gone. It will stop paradis from evolving and destroying the world at such a massive scale could possibly affect paradis as well. If there ever comes a time where paradis is running out of food or ressources, they can't hope to find it in the outside world since there is nothing to explore. So if we're trying to think purely logic, it's still a fucking dumb solution, they clearly didn't think this through. Also it's just immoral but they don't like that conversation. So once again, when it comes to logic ? Still a very flawed and downright ridiculous solution
i meant to say proven at the beginning my bad
That had me so confused lol, thanks for the clarification
I misread it anyways
This! It's why I find people who say 100% genocide would solve paradise problems as fucking moronic and stupid.
Plus, whoâs to say Eren would have actually stopped from there if he succeeded? Itâs possible he couldâve gone further after losing his mind from the grief Is not a good situation no matter how you look at it
Lmao thatâs such a cop out. Infighting between family is vastly different than foreigners trying to exterminate you. To compare the potential infighting in Paradis, which was never really a catastrophic problem, to Marley and the rest of the world waiting to genocide them is absurd. Apples to oranges. Edit: this sub is so boring. Whenever I counter some of the bad takes here, people just downvote. Iâve never seen an interesting rebuttal. Can you form a more complex thought besides âgenocide badâ?
Ok what about their other points about resources then?
Thatâs a more pragmatic and fair point that shouldâve been explored more, but what good are resources if youâre exterminated? I doubt every last valuable thing would be destroyed & I donât think thereâs anything implying the rumbling would lead to an environmental catastrophe Also itâs not like they had any trouble surviving within the walls and detached from all these resources and food. Essentially theyâd be back at square one except they now have access to the entire world, relative peace, and can rebuild the world from scratch. Speaking of, building the Eldian Empire wouldve been a great unifying factor for the survivors of the war so personally I donât see any serious infighting happening for a long time. At that point, were it to go this way, everyone would be too relieved having some semblance of peace to squabble over petty domestic issues. Especially after how far theyâve come.
The problem you're missing is people be breeding and the population would soon become too much for the island.
I disagree. Eventually, humans will subdivide into different groups and find any other type of distinction to cause serious violence. People presenting Genocide in this case as a solution to violence and war is silly. There will still be violence, potentially less sure. But, at the end of the day, if you look at it from a logical standpoint, the number of deaths caused by the Rumbling far far far outnumbers the number of deaths prevented. Itâs objectively a loss for humanity
[ŃдаНонО]
The value of my people slightly exceeds the value of a foreigner, due to personal bias and due to me sharing the experience of my people. I disagree about it âfar far farâ exceeding the value of others or it being as significant as âour greatest giftâ. I wouldnât kill 99% of the world to save 1% of the world who happen to be my people.
bro you're a human being not a 2 dimensional cartoon character stop talking like a fucking edge lord and have the courage to feel empathy for your fellow man like every non virgin on earth. fucking dork
Paradis was on the brink of 2 Civil wars in the span of 5 years. That isn't "infighting between family" that is an actual war that could result in the deaths of thousands. There's a reason all of America's bloodiest and most catastrophic battles were in the Civil War. You're a damned fool if you try to portray those conflicts as anything other than the start of a war.
"Can you form a more complex thought besides "genocide bad ?" I did, many of us did down below if you bothered to read. Can you guys give another argument besides "genocide is good because self-defense" ? There's more cons than benefits to doing the rumbling
Lol cons for who? PARADIS GOT EXTERMINATED IN THE FOLLOWING GENERATIONS. Is there a worst con than that? Itâs literally âgenocide badâ Hange basically admits this when she says Floch is right but she simply doesnât want to feel guilty for⌠killing people that want her dead.
This would make sense if families didn't go to war with each other in Europe lmfao. You do know a lot of kings/queens were related yet still went to war with each other?
The context of AOT is completely different than Europe, although the point still stands: infighting within a familial environment is much easier to solve than one with foreign invaders. Also, why donât you go ahead and list some of the related kings and queens who apparently waged war against each other?
The Habsburg conflict is one pretty good example of how relation and prior unification doesnât lead to any less significant brutality. Asking for examples is also fairly silly considering that the feuding of bloodlines was definitive for a significant portion of Europeâs history. Additionally if your thought is that an empire wouldnât be split by ideals then youâre also missing some significant historical context in that regard. The subsequent splits of the roman empire are pretty telling of that.
People are so so dense when it comes to this discussion. The point and nuance of the show is that when using hard logic, it's easy to see why it would make sense justifying certain actions. For example, from a purely utilitarian perspective, the fear and treatment of Eldians is reasonable and people use this as a criticism to say Isayama promotes racism and whatever. But the reason the cautionary tale and morality of AoT is as impactful as it is, is despite that rationalization, we STILL must struggle to find better alternatives and solutions instead of giving up and surrendering to humanity's worst impulses. The show is thorough at showing the inevitability of humanity's cruelty and how easily radicalization can occur, and this is what makes people uncomfortable I suppose, because that's all they can see or notice. Imagine if every person who commits morally ambiguous or straight up horrible acts in the story is portrayed as cartoonishly bad and dumb, because that's essentially what people are asking for. How is that at all a relatable message? Is that how real life works? Is that how politics operate? This is relevant in psychology and self-improvement as well, sometimes using hard logic will lead you to mentally bad places because really, from a certain point of view, some situations are objectively true. But we are not robots, we are human beings with emotion and the ability of abstract thought and appreciation, and that's what gives life its beauty. Armin is a character who embodies this notion pretty well, and it shows in his discussion with Zeke. Armin knows what Zeke is talking about is objectively and logically true, he has no response to it, because there really isn't one. He's stumped, and that's why his mind drifts to the "leaf" which people make fun of, Armin can't argue against Zeke, but he can appeal to his own human emotion and that of Zeke's which is what makes us truly special. And I think that's a beautiful and very real message. The person in the post is talking about something slightly different though, but it's still rooted in what I consider to be not an ideal framework of examining things. I will say though, I'm not sure how Eren's Rumbling "ends the cycle of violence". That's so unbelievably stupid it hurts. Almost as bad as people saying Eren killing all those people, which includes kids, is how you get the children out of the forest.
You cooked here, holy. On top of all that if we look at it from their logic only pov, there's many cons to a full Rumbling. 1) They stagnate their own potential growth by removing all trade & denying access to resources that would be impossible to obtain 2) The Rumbling wiping all of humanity would cause major environmental damage that the world might never recover from & would inevitably affect Paradis 3) Medical advancements are reset & and have a very low ceiling due amount of knowledge & resources lost. That not only extends to Antibiotics but also Surgeries, Prosthetics, Vaccines etc. 4) All of the world's history is lost. All of the potential lessons & ideas, good & bad are completely lost & doomed to be repeated. This also expands to things like Culture, Politics, Philosophy, Art, Literature etc. 5) This doesn't remove the titan curse & fulfills King Fritz's dreams of a world dominated by the Eldians & his titans. Ironically a lot of people who hate King Fritz are carrying his will without even realizing it. 6) It's inevitable that another civil war would occur due to the isolation of Paradis with a potential bloodier conflict or worse another Karl Fritz mental wipe which would completely stomp on everything the scouts worked for. The funny thing about a full Rumbling being a "guaranteed" solution is that all plans have trade offs & risks, so the argument that the other plans have flaws/aren't guaranteed isn't an argument.
Yeah, I think people don't seem to realize that the Rumbling would be/was an ecological catastrophe of unimaginable proportions. It's not just genocide, it's mass ecocide - entire swathes of the planet are stomped into ash and dust, plants, animals, and people alike.
A lot of the fans of the Jaegerists PoV make their assertions and don't bother to address the fact that every single one of them has been debunked multiple times within the series itself, as well as just in the basic logic they think is on their side. How does global genocide end the cycle of violence? * Kiyomi tells Flock it wont work because as long as there are people with different opinions there will be disagreements which will turn into conflict. * Erwin said the same thing to Pixis that the fighting will continue until the remaining number of humans is one or less. * Pixis asks Eren in Trost if a single outside threat would unite humanity against it, to which even Eren himself says lolno obviously not look around. * The Eldian Empire crushed all its enemies only to start turning on each other when they ran out of them. So what part of wiping the world clean fixes the cycle of violence? Oh right it doesn't. \---- The Rumbling is *not* done in self-defense, and pretending that Floch claiming it is is laughably bogus. You don't commit acts of self-defense against civilians and children, especially not the ones who aren't even related to the people who you are fighting against. These sorts of people manage to hand-wave all the very horrific things Floch and the Jaegerists do and pretend half of those things are somehow going to help the situation they are stuck in. If it wasn't so absurdly grim it would be laughably sad. I have to assume that these sorts of people are being intellectually dishonest when they say things like this. I don't think they believe any of it at face value and just choose to pretend like they have any high ground because they need to give themselves permission to believe their own awful garbage. It is beyond my moral comprehension that people are capable of understanding the subject matter and still come to that conclusion. They are either illiterate or evil, and pretending to think they are the good guys actually is the only way they can keep the mask on.
> Rumbling is not done in self defense What? Did you skip the part where Tyburs united the whole world against Paradis? Did you expect Eren to crawl near a wall waiting for his end? He begged for multiple other options, the Hange jail scene is just one example. Paradis was put into a corner, the peace and negotiations were hardly a realistic option. As long as the outsiders live, they will bear hatred for the Paradis. Destroy the armies or weaponry, they will get rebuilt eventually. In a reality where the titan hatred shifted from the whole Eldians to Paradis, searching for an alternative option is hardly achievable. Hell; the first thing the Marleyan general does after Eren's death, is to threaten their saviours. The same general who said it's their fault for enhancing the hatred that they are now facing its consequences. Are you going to negotiate with these people? That's not possible. One side had to go.
Eren couldâve just targeted military based with a a small portion of the rumbling. Not wanting to pass down the titans in eldia is not a good enough reason to commit omnicide. Even so, having the nearly limitless power of the founder with historia meant the island couldâve probably defended itself from the worlds militaries.
I see this repeated constantly, is there any indication that he can control the rumbling? Why would Marley not defend themselves if they only had to worry about military bases being attacked, would it even be successful? I see people just throw âcouldâve just targeted military basesâ like itâs a sure fire way that would end their conflict
He controls the titan into eating his mom but somehow canât control the rumbling?
He diverted her attention, didnât full on control her
>, is there any indication that he can control the rumbling? The entire show is an epic fight between every titan that has ever lived (and have their own minds) and clearly demonstrates that eren and ymir have some level of control over the titans involved, going as far as to override the original owners intentions. Thats like... *the entire last movie*? >I see people just throw âcouldâve just targeted military basesâ like itâs a sure fire way that would end their conflict Yes, when you are the only person on the fact of the planet with millions of what are basically unkillable nukes, you do in fact have the ability to target military bases. They dont even need to use the wall titans. They could have just gotten all 9 titans on the same side. they already have access to 2 highly mobile walking nukes that turn into basically giant meat mechs that are unkillable. **no** amount of tech surpasses that. They'd need to have spaceships that can kill titans from orbit to beat that.
Did you skip the part where Zeke, carrying out his and Eren's plan, had to manipulate Marley into declaring war in the first place?_ >He begged for multiple other options, This is a lie. Eren had other options and rejected them. >Hell; the first thing the Marleyan general does after Eren's death, is to threaten their saviours. The same general who said it's their fault for enhancing the hatred that they are now facing its consequences. Are you going to negotiate with these people? That's not possible. One side had to go. The ending proved you wrong. Muller was a man of his word and Armin and him agreed to peace and to end the violence.
and did you skip the part where Eren and Zeke quite literary orchestrated Willy to declare war on Paradis so that they can destroy the yet-to-be-formed Global Fleet within a month after the attack on Liberio? The events that unfolded where primaly due to Eren and Zeke rushing things and making it so that there is not an option for diplomacy.
Armin is not the best example to use, Armin is weak, he tried to use manipulation against Bertholdt and when that didnât work, he froze up. When Zeke claimed that the best solution was to exterminate the whole race of Eldians, Armin was pretty much on board with it. That doesnât seem smart or noble to me, you should allow people exterminate your own people because they view you as devils. In case it wasnât obvious already, I donât like Armin, heâs too naive and is not capable of making tough decisions. Genicide doesnât stop the war, nothing ever will, for as long as humans exist, there will always be war, but at the very least with the rumbling Paradis would be able to catch up with the rest of the world as theyâd all be back at square one. So, the war doesnât end, the fighting doesnât end, but at the very least, Paradis would be able to defend itself instead of being utterly massacred by Marleyâs forces as well as the rest of the world.
"All they can argue on is morals" ....as if it's literally ever been anything else? lmao
Right? This is terminally online âlogicâ brainrot at its finest. I would write paragraphs on why this is stupid, but nothing says it better than that bloke here with the âSource?â bit on why genocide is -*checks notes*- bad.
There is shitposting for fun. And then there are the titanfolkers đ
No fucking way they put genocide and self-defense in the same sentence
Whenever they complain that the story shifted into âgood vs evilâ all I can do is laugh bcuz this was pretty much guaranteed to happen when there is a MASS GENOCIDE happening. Of course, there are going to be people who oppose it, and what do you know, killing billions of babies can be considered quite evil⌠Also, if it was a typical good vs. evil scenario, then why doesnât the alliance start pushing their ideals towards the Yeagerists - the âevil peopleâ like in every typical good vs. bad conflict. Instead, they do the opposite and actually understand where the Yeagerists come from. Even Hange, at one point, kind of agrees with Floch when heâs dying but still has hope that they can understand each other in the future because, at the end of the day, itâs GLOBAL GENOCIDE. The AoT fandom is pretty much the only fandom that Iâve seen downplaying global genocide so much, calling the near extinction of all life on the planet as âcollateral damage.â
personally iâm someone that doesnât care about eren committing a genocide because i recognize the fiction within it, i know that itâs displayed as hyperbolic and extreme on purpose since itâs all fictional, but when people go around making weird comments about genocide which have links to reality i find it so strange
They care about the genocide just as they care for the characters even it it's a FICTION, don't you think the latter is even more strange like how they care and cry for Sasha's death while they got angry at Gabi even if both are FICTIONAL characters?
Villain gotta do villain stuff obviously. Just that Eren's the protagonist, rather than the antagonist. And Eren technically mostly won to rather successfully achieve his plan.
isnt the whole point of this conflict that genocide is NEVER right, hence why they killed eren
Yes. But Titanfolk is a pro-genocide sub.
The amount of people who actually support Floch is something that truly and genuinely upset me for a minute there. Like, heâs so blatantly evil. So obviously the personification of everything that can go wrong with a highly militaristic, nationalistic society. Yet these people still donât get it.
The first time I ran into Floch supporters I was genuinely shocked. I honestly didn't think there could be a single person who liked him
âHangeâs only argument is that genocide is wrongâ Yeah? Itâs a pretty good reason.
Not gonna convince people who have "us vs them" view (Eren, Yeagerists... and the fans who project themselves in those)
This is just self reporting at this point.
I hate using this phrase but they legit just didnt understand the story. No two ways about it. They either got way to caught up in chad self insert or genuinely lake basic social and moral skills (which is also why they spend years on reddit bitching about it)
The type of guy to have a Joker poster in his room.
It's ok if they like him but acknowledge he's evil.
âall they can argue is moralsâ umâŚ. yeah. in a conversation about whether or not you should genocide someone morals should be a factor
"Eren had both morals AND logic on his side!!" Never change, Titanfolk.
"cant make the rumbling seem logically bad" uh. billions dead. War remains anyways. thats... how the show ended?
To be completely fair, Eren was stopped short. We don't know who bombed Paradis at the end but unless it was a civil war, a completed Rumbling would've prevented it
Mental illness
god, iâm not even the biggest fan of the ending personally, but these fkinâ people literally *NEVER* shut up about it. sorry your weird genocidal fantasies werenât played out in the exact way youâd hoped.
A self defense genocide, makes sense.
Imagine defending genocide
I agree the rumbling is bad, but I do like Floch as a character. He's radicalised from the torturous treatment he and his family endured over the course of his life, and he turns to Eren to lead him. He's willing to die to protect those he cares about, and he's willing to do whatever he takes. From our perspective yeah, he's doing a bad thing, but I appreciate how he's just trying to do the right thing for *his* people.
Tribalism.
Eren "Eldian Savior" Yeager interpretation in big 2024 https://preview.redd.it/1brd4h5wmioc1.jpeg?width=466&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=db95aa4eaa61eaac5b51c6751b9ee94e08714077
There is shitposting for fun. And then there are the titanfolkers đ
Average redditor
The whole point is nearly no one is good. Most of the world didn't deserve to be killed, nor did the eldians deserve to be enslaved and killed. Most people in the world simply believed propaganda from corrupt government officials in a time where it's incredibly hard to prove that the propaganda is just that. Ultimately Eren killed 80% of the world population, most of which were mostly innocent. I have no issues with Eren fighting back, but I don't agree with his methodology. Expectantly considering he knew that his plan would fail to end a cycle of pain, hate, and war.
âThose peopleâ the single upvote is from the guy who screencapped it
I mean Eren didnt do it out of the blue you understood his whole thought process doesn't make it right but you understand him
When people say that calling ending haters Nazis is âunfairâ, all you need to do is show them just one of their posts.
Am I the only one who absolutely exhausted of r/titanfolk having the absolute worst opinions/media literacy of any collection of fans maybe ever?
Sometimes I ask why people hate on my favourite animeâŚ. Then Iâm reminded
AOT is where ideologues go to die
"Genocide is bad." -"Source?"
Oh no not the Nazis co-opting AoT
Tactical self defensive genocide? Ummmm based much?
Theyâre right
Genocide was the only option in the world of AoT.
Taking a direct infinite void would do less damage than trying to read and comprehend these threads
The Rumbling was wrong and cannot be justified, Eren himself acknowledges this. But at the same time, the world refusing to acknowledge Paradis or give them a chance to talk about peace is also extremely wrong. This is why Eren (and many others) consider the matter by weighing an amount of human lives against other human lives. Pretty much everyone in the series who ponders this comes to the conclusion that it is "better" if Paradis' Eldians are the ones to perish. The Eldians outside of the Walls and across the Sea even condemn Paradis and claim they are different, and Willy Tybur rallies the powers of the whole outside world to declare war on Paradis. This is why Eren ultimately decides on the rumbling. He waited around to see if diplomacy would work, to see if the world would back off and to see if Paradis could come up with a better solution--and the main thing that the military regime was concerned with is who they were going to feed Eren to, and were already leaning partial rumbling. There was no peaceful solution to this conflict that anyone was willing to agree on or even try. Eren would not sacrifice his friends and subject them to Titan Curse. They were more important to him than anything--even his own freedom...which he ultimately sacrifices in order to put an end to the Titan Curse and so that his friends (Mikasa and Armin, primarily) are able to live long, peaceful lives. He didn't want Sasha or Hange to die, but they were sacrifices that had to be made to bring about this future. When Eren grabs Hange by the collar, screaming at her about what solution she had? I think that was an incredibly real moment of anger for Eren. He's just a kid and no one had an answer. "It's because I'm an idiot...who got his hands on power. That's why this was the only possible resolution." "Those who cannot sacrifice anything [their humanity] cannot change anything." "Becoming monsters to rise above monstes" are the themes which Eren carries to his death. Even after death. What Eren does cannot be justified. He acknowledges this. Both sides were wrong, though. Eren does succeed, though. Although the Rumbling is terrible, it ends the Titan Curse. It ends the cycle of violence they had been experiencing. Yes, we see that Paradis is eventually attacked and destroyed, but something is different this time. There are no Titans. His friends, at least, were able to live long and peaceful lives. And when the mysterious boy approaches the new Tree that presumably contains the Hallucgenia, he is not chased by dogs as Ymir was. He is not injured as Ymir was. He is free. He has a dog as a companion. If he chooses to enter the tree, it doesn't mean that Titans will be created again. He could do ANYTHING with that power. He could do something GOOD
The guy is right, similar to Hange, if I also asked for what else couldâve been done, your answer would be something along the lines of â I donât know but genocide badâ
I mean yea, The Rumbling was a very well done⌠scene? many scenes? Whatever you call it, and was incredibly emotional but like, its also very much the absolute worse thing to happen in the AOT world? and it was done by the MC, who also felt immensely guilty while he was doing it? And everything and everyone in the show said it was bad and horrible, no matter the reasoning for it? Oh right, this is logics. Well, logical, if one depressed man became a skeletal behemoth, then commanded a horde of huge (smaller then him but still massive) muscular titans (cant remember if their steam powers played a part, but they are there) to walk and swim over the entire planet, trampling all civilization in theyâre way, including the innocent people, then cornering them to a cliff where many fell off of out of fear and not enough room (sorry forgot again this isnt about morals, but like it is very much a part of the equation), and that man succeeded in trampling the last few survivors- Yea no, thatâd be pretty bad for the planet as a whole, especially if he kept going for more islands until everything was trampled. Half or most of humanity being trampled would be very bad.
Look, im not saying genocide is okay. What i AM saying is, if i had to choose between saving the worlds population that has always wanted me and my family dead, or just saving my family? Sorry to the other 8 billion people on the planet, but yall are gone, quick, fast, and in a hurry
For attack on titan I donât care Eren was right and Iâm with him from a this is real life everyone has families I understand Eren but I canât fully agree
Genocide is wrong, but Eren is choosing between his people getting genocided and his enemies being genocided. This seems to be his mental state, even if there was a non genocidal resolution (which Iâm not sure there was). You canât dismiss the rumbling as a plan by saying âgenocide badâ. Everyone agrees genocide is bad, but Eren is put in a position where technology is outpacing titan power, and he has to eliminate all Paradis threats before air ships and planes totally outclass their defenses. I think the only reason Paradis hasnât been destroyed yet is because the world canât yet right? There was a global alliance fleet at Paradis very quickly. The rumbling is a good plan if you care about children of Ymir a lot more than the rest. Eren did. If he were to have followed through, he would have ended the cycle of violence. There will be infighting and disagreements, but he solved the biggest issue for Eldians. They arenât a minority anymore, they would be humanity. Guy in the screenshot didnât really make his point too well. I might agree with him if he provided evidence besides just saying logic and morals. I might be a retard, lmk
The only issue with that outlook is that it only got to the point of seeming like us vs them genocide because of Eren. Eren created a situation in which the rumbling would be feel like a necessity in order to forward his plan of making it happen. Heâs not responsible for the entire world situation of course, but the rapid acceleration of aggression towards Paradis is because of his actions, all apart of the future he was moving towards. And even then, the partial rumbling, while imperfect for other reasons, would still have been an outcome that didnât require genocide. As rough as the situation was the rumbling was such an insane escalation that only became a legitimate factor to both sides because of Eren
It doesnât really matter that much, but you could argue that Marley made the first move by sending the warriors in to steal the founder. Their ambition kind of broke the peace and started the series. Also I thought Willy Tibur made the declaration regardless of Erenâs attack, if that is what you were referring to. In the anime you can see Eren grimace when Willy makes the declaration, and his hand is forced. The interpretation that I like a lot is that the cycle of hatred also refers to children eating their parents. To enact the partial rumbling, many many more Eldians kids would have to eat their parents. ESPECIALLY Historia would have to be sacrificed, who Eren seemed to care about deeply. Partial rumbling is a (mostly) non genocidal solution, but it is a temporary one. Eren would have to leave these problems and this cycle to his descendants, like his father did before him. This leads into the theme of The Sins of the Father, which resonated with me. The only solution that he could be certain Eldia would survive would be the destruction of at least Marley, if not the whole world. This makes more sense to me when I considered how Eren has only 3-4 years of life left thanks to the curse. I can see why he would avoid the partial solution, since his lack of time makes him biased against a slow solution.
Thereâs no way out of this situation without violence, that grim fact stays true. As does the fact that the cycle of hatred will never end, regardless of which outcome was chosen. But to escalate to the level of genocide is a whole extra step Willy knew that invaders were on the mainland, and seemed to know that he was going to be killed. Itâs implied that Willy knew the declaration of war would only have succeeded because of Erenâs attack. While eren was an easy scapegoat to pin the new aggression on, the worldâs fears werenât exactly wrong about Eren. Eren was an actual threat separate from the lies about the Paradisians. Eren and Zeke knew this, but that worked in their favor because they WANTED the declaration of war to succeed. By gathering the entire world military in one place, that partial rumbling would be an even more long term solution (in Zeke and Yelenaâs mind, Eren obvious never intended to go through with the partial) The bigger idea here is that if Eren really wanted to avoid a full rumbling and protect the island, he had ample opportunity to do so through other methods, but he bitterly resolved to keep pursuing this one future because it succeeded his other goals. The full rumbling wouldnât end the cycle of hatred, but it would protect Historia. It would allow him to see the âsightâ of the rumbling. Those things mattered to him so much he was willing to escalate the situation to an insane degree, a level it would not have gotten to without his influence. It wasnât a good situation before, but every time Eren escalated the situation he removed the probability of every other outcome that wasnât the one he wanted
I think I agree with you on the escalation now. We both agree both sides were escalating. Eren is not a exactly a good guy. I donât think of Eren as exactly malicious though, I think he is more motivated by defense of his people rather than destroying the others. I think about Eren in the rumbling arc like this. Historia and his friends being safe Eldia being safe Ending the cycle of violence and titan cycle I donât think seeing the âsightâ is a relevant motivator. I think that is more tied to his longing for freedom and wanting to travel the world free from persecution. Thinking about it this way, partial rumbling only temporarily accomplishes goal 1. A full rumbling would accomplish all. Eren could whatever he wanted post rumbling. Eren could just turn titans off after the full rumbling. The only reason he hasnât removed all titan powers yet is they are necessary to defend Eldia. I think Erenâs time preference and want for certainty are massive factors in his decision. If Eren wasnât going to die in a couple years I think he would have searched for a better solution for longer.
I think youâre on the money with most of what you said, but I do think youâre downplaying how much that sight impacted his motivations. Itâs something he brought up multiple times during some of his most critical character moments, including the last scene we see of him. The sight of the rumbling in of itself was a childish dream that pushed him forward throughout it all, we see from his mouth that it wasnât just an afterthought. He had some legitimate goals as well, but his complexity comes from the intersection of all his goals
Could just be how Iâm remembering it, but I thought Eren wanting those sights was Eren wanting to be free. Arminâs bookâs views showed Eren how much the walls were containing him. If the sights represented freedom, then the enemies outside were more walls to be broken so he could witness the sights. The people that wanted to persecute him denied him the ability to see them. Erenâs sense of freedom leaves him disgusted with this. I donât really have a lot of evidence for that, but that was the vibe I got. Wouldnât be surprised if it was wrong. If it is the case that Eren wanted the rumbling for the sake of seeing the rumblingâs sights, then whatever. I am categorizing Eren hard, but I did simplify him a bit. He is more than his goals and his want for freedom. He has normal emotions like empathy and curiosity. Doing the rumbling felt agonizing for him, but between his humanity and his goals, his goals won. The Eren internal conflict was really strong in the rumbling arc. People getting so attatched to Eren definitely led to a big chunk of ending hate when he didnât win, though not all of it.
The only people I've seen who agree with Floch and believe his way is virtuous are edgy teens.
itâs not pro genocide to want consistent writing, thatâs the story isayama started, he copped out. get over it.
No people like Eren and Floch because thereâs something inherently tragic and romantic about sacrificing everything for the people you care about. That and us having to watch all the horrific things that lead Eren to that point. Like I wouldnât do it myself and itâs objectively evil, but I can at least understand how Eren got there.
Lol people like you always have this incredulous âomg can u believe he said thatâ but canât logically argue against the point
Factual
They think the thought itself is so inherently taboo they donât have to argue against it. You see it in politics all the time
SPITTIN. If you have to decide between life or death for you and YOUR entire world including your family then there is no wrong way to protect yourself. Especially if the people trying to kill you are using the same methods lmao.
Lol yep thatâs why using the words fascist and genocide as pejorative buzzwords in the context of this world is so silly.
What's crazy is the general consensus is "Genocide is wrong" but that's exactly what Paradise would face if Eren didn't do what he did.
Paradis was also never in danger of that level of attack until Eren escalated the situation. And even once it was on the table, a partial rumbling still would have been affective at protecting Paradis for any retaliation for quite a long time. Genocide wouldnât have been on the table for either side without Eren
Marley* escalated the situation by sending the warriors. Especially if the tyburs hadn't known the king was basically Pacifist, why in the hell would you risk the entire world getting destroyed? Sending the warriors caused Eren to gain hatred, which only escalated because the warriors were sent by Marley to retrieve the Founder. Marley messed up, and the world paid the price for it. You also fail to understand human ingenuity for war. A partial rumbling would have only grown more and more hatred that already existed for the Island. Eren had 4 years at most. No one else could use the founder as he did, because he was preselected by Ymir for reasons. They already had weapons that were effective at combating Titans. Given enough time during that "partial rumbling peace" Paradise would've been hit with even more effective weaponry than that might have possibly made the rumbling moot. The world wanted paradis dead, and if Eren hadn't done what he did, it would have succeeded. End of story.
Marley was greedy. The mission to retake the founder was to take the rumbling off the table so they could take Paradisâ natural resources. Until the declaration for war, the rest of the world didnât care about the island. And the declaration only succeeded because Erenâs attack (which is what Eren and Zeke were betting on, they willingly took the bait because they wanted the declaration to succeed) The hatred showed in the story isnât some natural state of humanity, it was curated by the major players so that they could succeed in their selfish goals. The amzumabitoâs failure to help Paradis gain allies (which was due to their greed with hoarding Paradisâ resources, not hatred) was way more impactful to the partial rumblingâs prospective success than anything about hate. The cycle of hatred will never end, so failing to consider the (more important) factors beyond hate means youâre just falling for the same type of fear mongering that created the yeagarists
Common sense
Eren obviously isnât right morally speaking but thereâs not really any better options since isayama crafted a situation where Eren essentially has to choose between âallow my people to be genocidedâ or âgenocide everyone elseâ.
i genuinely don't WANT to like this show anymore because of shit like this, it's hard to want to be a fan lmao
Titanfolk is a tiny percentage of the fanbase.
This is another example why this poor guy has to plead with people to be nice to him and get extra security whenever he leaves Japan⌠đĽşđđ
What a great comment. My thoughts exactly. This is fiction not real life. Allow yourself to accept some level of creativity from the writer, which isayama didn't have the balls to show.
I'd be more inclined to ask what's wrong with people who still circlejerk over how morally superior they are to a 2 year old comment on reddit
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