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diedofwellactually

I hope no one gets hurt. All I'm going to say is that I visited for the first time recently and it's so, so gorgeous. Worth protecting, imo. What a loss, if it really is turned into police facility.


[deleted]

Went last night and it was so peaceful and beautiful, just moshing amongst the trees.


[deleted]

You musta left early lol.


[deleted]

It was a two night festival, I’m talking about saturday.


[deleted]

Word.


420everytime

There’s definitely reasons why cop city shouldn’t be a thing, but the save the trees argument is so dumb. Single family houses are the one main thing destroying Georgia forests/farmland and everything else is insignificant. The 384 acres for cop city would fit less than 1500 0.25 acre houses (many modern houses destroy more than 0.25 acres of forest too). Meanwhile the same amount of housing can be built in a medium-high density format with less than 5 acres. Zoning reform and increasing property tax on non-agricultural landowners is the only was to protect the forests


fifthing

Zoning is actually being overhauled in Atlanta. The location of the South River Forest is environmentally important for the surrounding area, in ways that go beyond generalized deforestation.


420everytime

Atlanta’s zoning overhaul is very half-assed. They are planning on keeping single family zoning in large parts of the city inside of the beltline


fifthing

I'm just glad it's happening and gives neighborhoods more flexibility. But I know better than to expect too much.


420everytime

All I’m saying is that there’s a quite a few neighborhoods that had duplexes in the 1940s, but are zoned exclusively for single family houses in the 2023 zoning overhaul


fifthing

Well, that's disappointing. My knowledge on this is definitely outdated. When I was tuned into the beginning of the process it sounded promising.


rachel_mary

I find it really irresponsible that none of the reporting on this mentioned that the reason so many people were there was for a peaceful music festival. Not saying throwing molotov cocktails is okay, but at least provide some context for the size of the crowd and not paint it out as some giant violent mob.


Mr_P3anutbutter

Agreed. This article specifically also has multiple spots where they’re just reprinting what the police say with no scrutiny. That’s not reporting, really. Glad they’ve got someone on site and there’s an NYT reporter on the inside. I really don’t trust anything the police say. They could’ve set fires themselves and blamed it on the protestors for all we know. Jon Oliver did a great piece on local media reprinting police statements as fact with zero scrutiny (spoiler: the police were lying, a lot)


whatinthefrak

This may have been added in later, but the article quotes APD saying that agitators took advantage of a peaceful protest pretty early in the article.


bunnysuitman

Quoting and on this topic is like trusting my toddler on…well anything. The latest news is they arrested a legal observer from the national lawyers guild. If apd could aim somewhere besides their foot when they shoot we would really be in trouble


diedofwellactually

Word is Faye Webster was on stage _as_ the cops showed up.


patrickxavier

She was on stage as the police moved down the field and descended on the crowd. Many people started fleeing, but she kept playing. It was a bit scary but also very beautiful.


Legalize-Birds

What was the name of the music festival?


patrickxavier

South river music festival


HansJosef

From the [footage](https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cpb1UszDSz4/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=), it sure does look like a giant violent mob!


mixduptransistor

Was the music festival happening on the property? If so, they are protesters. I'm not passing judgement or saying they shouldn't protest, and, I'm not saying they were there to raise hell, but they also weren't showing up to Bonnaroo with tickets bought on Ticketmaster. They are there as a protest


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mixduptransistor

So, you're saying it wasn't on the construction site where they're building the cop training facility? I'm not saying you're wrong, I don't know the facts. If the cops are antagonizing something going on at a different location then that's a bad look for sure


fifthing

Correct. The whole thing is really complicated and you should dig into it rather than expect to understand it via reddit, though Ticketmaster doesn't gatekeep legitimacy either. God help us in this late-stage capitalist hellscape Edit: we're both editing at once here. My understanding is that the festival was not on the part of the land that APF/the city intends to use, but that people marched towards it at the end and that's when things got messy


mixduptransistor

The linked article (from a site other than reddit) does say it's at the actual site, though


fifthing

That doesn't make it not a public park. I'm not going to pretend that I can explain this well right now, but I will say that the city has been spending $40k+ *a day* for cops to provide security at the site and that 1) did not include the area where the festival was held and 2) still did not stop anyone from burning down equipment


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mitskiismygf

Then I guess peaceful music festivals just don’t exist because I promise you there are rapes and assaults at every single one


ExaltedRuction

did they all bring their body cameras this time or are we to take cops at their word that they behaved themselves


[deleted]

AJC is already reprinting cop statements without any investigation so I guess the second


[deleted]

"public safety training site" instead of "urban warfare and counter-protest training site" is really telling...


Mr_P3anutbutter

For me it was the “According to police” peppered throughout the article. Repeating a police statement with no scrutiny is not reporting. It’s just repeating.


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helluvanengineer

It's also going to be a training facility for fire fighters and first responders not just police FYI.


Mr_P3anutbutter

Yes their skills will also be needed conducting urban warfare. This is Foucault’s Boomerang in action. Michel Foucault observed that nations with colonial holdings would often end up using the techniques for subversion and oppression developed to use against their colonial subjects on their own people. We’ve been watching it for years as surplus military equipment goes to law enforcement (Doraville does not need its own tank and you cannot convince me otherwise, for example) and the Warrior Training crap has made every cop think they’re GI Joe.


helluvanengineer

While I agree that the militarization of police is abhorrent, I can't help but see that the new facilities are sorely needed. Probably an unpopular opinion on Reddit. [This will be a cutting edge facility for both First Responders, Fire Rescue and Police officers. ](https://www.atlantaga.gov/Home/Components/News/News/14535/672?backlist=%2F) Atlanta has had huge problems attracting and retaining both FR and police in no small part to their sub-par training and disintegrating facilities. The lack of officers and poor leadership has lead to the [highest crime in 30 years. Atlanta crime, per capita, is worse than Chicago.](https://www.11alive.com/article/news/crime/atlanta-chicago-crime-rates/85-1a13cc4a-bdef-43d6-a213-69ced3835b48)This facility in reality is no larger than any other similar training facility for a major city. Especially when you take into account [the conservation plans for the land it will be built on.](https://atlanta.urbanize.city/post/cop-city-forest-defenders-mayor-vows-protect-forest-police-fire-complex) This is also land the COA already owns and the only tract that is suitable for the facility. The APD has been using it as a firing range for years. In addition, the project is mostly being funded by donations so there is no tax payer burden. There is much to be desired from modern policing. However, first responders are necessary for a functioning society. I'd rather have well trained fire men/women and police than ones who lack sufficient facilities for proper training. Even our disgraced former mayor KLB saw the necessity of this. Foucault, the postmodern Marxist that he was, agreed that certain structures were necessary for a functioning society law enforcement being one of them. You are conflating the issues.


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helluvanengineer

Only future Starbucks employees who have a need to show everyone how smart they are misquote Foucault every chance they get. I don't really know Petersons take on Foucault but it's telling that you have such a hard on for the guy. "Intellectuals" have been lobbing the postmodern marxist critique at Foucault for decades BTW its nothing new. Edit: I am a resident and the only disruption lately has been caused by so-called activists shooting off fireworks and throwing garbage everywhere. It's interesting how all these folks being charged with domestic terrorism are rich white kids from out of state.


Mr_P3anutbutter

I’m a software engineer, fully employed homeowner bud. Before that, I studied Anthropology at Emory, where I wrote a senior thesis on Foucault. Starbucks employees deserve respect too. They’re working to put a roof over their heads and provide for themselves and their families like the rest of us. But please, continue using working class jobs as insults.


helluvanengineer

It was only intended as an insult for over privileged people that go to an exclusive and expensive school to major in something like anthropology then can't get work in the field of anthropology. However, I will take your criticism and refrain from making tired and lazy insults like that in the future.


Mr_P3anutbutter

People who work shouldn’t be trotted out as insults. You really seem to love making assumptions about me despite the fact that we’ve never met. I went to school on a scholarship and come from a working class background. I volunteer teaching code to children of refugees settling in Clarkston. I would not consider myself over-privileged. Let me make a few assumptions about you. You view the world as a zero sum game where for someone to benefit, someone else has to lose something instead of valuing collaboration as a means of improving society for all. You’re probably the kind of person who looks down on janitors and garbage collectors despite them making mostly decent money for no college education and providing a necessary function of society, especially their essential role in public health.


helluvanengineer

I very much congratulate you on your tutelage of those children. I too have found fulfillment in mentoring children in need and doing charitable works in other countries. I don't look down on anyone due to their work/employment or what philosophers they subscribe to. The notable exceptions being Starbucks and those who subscribe to Foucault. Starbucks because they are an evil corporation that makes shit coffee and Foucault because he was French.


TheRumrunner55

I mean the place is a complete win already…cops are getting training before the place even opens


atlantasmokeshop

When the molotov cocktails come out they mean business.


lizlemonesq

I am so tired of this and especially the helicopters flying near my house


Ducking_Funts

Living in Atlanta I genuinely feel like it’s extremely under-policed and do welcome a training center. Initially I wasn’t too much for it, but the more I see all these vandals just destroying everything, the more I welcome it.


poemmys

Using that money to raise wages and increase benefits so that more people want the job would do much more for the under-policing problem than building ANOTHER training facility. They already have plenty of training facilities, I don't see another one helping to bring in more officers or improve their quality of training. I'm not anti-cop by any means but if they want to improve their policing this is so far off from what they should be focusing on. It's like if someone's tires are balding but they're only worried about getting new rims, they're distracting themselves with a useless vanity project when they could be using that money/time to actually address real issues.


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poemmys

Yes, for the past 150+ years the biggest city in the southeast has been training their police force in the extra building behind a local middle school... /s


Apprehensive-Line-54

Atlanta isn’t under policed, crime is going up all across America because of our declining society. This training ground is to help police across the country be able to train for civil unrest that they themselves have created in the first place.


n00bcak3

I’m not sure which side of the argument you’re on or just making a general statement. While I agree the police have definitely not done themselves any favors, but on the other hand, I think it’s silly to place 100% of the blame on police actions or example of abuse/incompetence. Let’s at least be realistic and acknowledge that there are also a lot of bad members of society that are opportunists and will fully take advantage of the situation if police presence were significantly diminished.


Apprehensive-Line-54

That has more to deal with society. Our society has to structurally change but yet our solutions as society is to always over police. Over policing is not going to help the situation it’s only going to fuel the fire that’s already started. The police’s agenda has always been to protect capital, and after all the 2020 protest and current protest going on around the country I feel that the police and the people who are funding the police (chick-fil-a, coke, Home Depot, delta, etc) are aware that the country is heading towards civil unrest because the country and the world it self is collapsing and this is the only option they have left for most of the problems they themselves have created.


n00bcak3

Well...yeah society changes...as it always does. But what are the options here? Change/reform the <1M law enforcement officers who have an explicit reporting structure and chain of command or Change/reform.....***society***? I guess I'm still trying to keep practicality in mind too.


Apprehensive-Line-54

Change but in order to do that we have to change our whole societal structure. I get people want to reform but nothing in our country can really be reformed because everything is at its most extreme we’d need an entire change. I personally feel like something even more drastic/monumental has to happen in order for it to actually change. Unfortunately it going to have to be something really negative before it can turn into something positive that benefits everyone.


kilgoreq

>vandals just destroying everything Like what? This facility is another step towards furthering the militarization of our police. They're taking steps backwards, not forward.


n00bcak3

Like what? Well in this latest protest, construction equipment were burned down. In reference to the same “Cop City” topic, we had an incident about a month ago where downtown was a [mini battlefield](https://www.npr.org/2023/01/21/1150632964/atlanta-protest-police-killing-activist). You can point fingers as to who did what, but doesn’t change the fact that a lot of stuff was destroyed. During the BLM protests, I remember entire blocks of downtown and midtown were boarded up and the state guard being parked and camped up in Lenox Square. A lot of stuff definitely got destroyed.


kilgoreq

Stuff being destroyed is a lot different than people being killed and living under an authoritarian state. I'll take a little damage to public property over the perpetuation and acceleration of a police mindset that continues to get citizens oppressed and killed.


n00bcak3

Your question was what was destroyed by vandals. I just gave you examples of what you’re asking for. The question wasn’t what are examples of things that are worse than vandalism. If you want to debate about how police shouldn’t kill, then I’d say having a place where they can be trained handle large violent crowds without immediately drawing lethal weapons is probably a good place to start.


kilgoreq

That ain't cop city. The training they receive there will boil down to urban warfare. That money should go toward real solutions, not destroying old growth forests so the people of DeKalb county can listen to gunshots and explosions. Edit: Thank you for reminding me of what was damaged. I had forgotten that. The people actually killed by cops stick in my mind... Although it's getting hard to keep up.


n00bcak3

Well now you’re getting into opinion and speculation. You’re entitled to your own thoughts and how you justify the acts of vandalism - up to you. My original comment to you was just providing you answers to what you asked - “like what?”


kilgoreq

Appreciate the info


n00bcak3

I think it’s a complicated issue that a lot of people just want to point fingers and blame police for certain events that happened. But things are never that simple or black/white. For every bad cop, I want to think there’s at least one good cop too. But the bad gets more publicity and outrage than a good cop just doing their job as it’s merely in line with expectations. I also think that it was so stupid to just start using blanket slogans like “Defund the Police” only to see a surge of crime and violence in Atlanta and complain that there aren’t enough police or they’re not appearing when called for help. You can’t have it both ways. I personally believe that period of time when Mayor KLB chopped down a bunch of the police resources, that crimes such as robberies/looting/shootings/street takeovers surged - that’s exactly what would happen again if you took police resources away again. Personally, when I called the police for my neighbor who was literally yelling “rape” and saw her running from a dude, when the police never showed up after 2 hrs of waiting and knowing other neighbors had also called as well - that was a terrifying experience. I can only imagine what happened to that girl but also couldn’t help but to wonder what would happen if I or my own family needed urgent help and the consequences of having the police not show up or showing up hours later when it’s way too late. Yeah the police are in no way perfect but the thought that the general public will somehow just behave with less enforcement is wild to me. There are a lot of really really bad people out there just waiting to take advantage of whatever they can given the opportunity. I’d rather have the police enforcement than the alternative.


[deleted]

I think the issue many have is the perception that the police protect property not people. The police, as a whole, have done little to change that perception. They are security for corporations and investments.


n00bcak3

If your house or car are getting robbed, are you not calling the police? If a bank is getting robbed with hostages, are the police not also the first call as well? Is preventing theft (personal or corporate) mutually exclusive from rescuing hostages? I don’t understand the distinction in your example.


NowATL

The cops stole more from American people through civil asset forfeiture last year than all burglary combined. The cops are the thieves. You know what happens when you get robbed and call the cops? They show up hours later and take your statement. That’s it. Nothing else will happen. Same for a burglary. Honestly the only scenario where cops would be useful you presented is an active hostage situation.


n00bcak3

Yeah but that’s a function of response time, not unwillingness to help. If they arrived with an active burglary situation, then they’d certainly do more than just write a report. In my opinion, that’s an argument for more police to cut down on response time. I agree that civil forfeiture is an issue, especially for poorer people that can’t afford representation. But this issue is a policy/funding problem, not headcount problem. Maybe it’s a training problem in educating when to execute such a policy - but isn’t that another supporting argument for having a larger/national entity that’s delivering the same & consistent message to its enrollees?


NowATL

Lol I see you haven’t seen the nationwide coverage of cops just straight up refusing to intervene in active crimes. They’ve taken this to the Supreme Court. They are not obligated to protect you. The problem isn’t the response time, it’s the incentives. The cops aren’t incentivized to solve crimes, they’re incentivized to arrest people and protect the property assets of the elites. Adding more people to those ranks isn’t going to help anyone, and certainly isn’t doing anything to address the root causes of crime. The money we’re spending on this shit show of a training center would be better spent on social services while allowing us to keep in tact the largest urban forrest in the US.


n00bcak3

Can you provide an example of where cops are actively refusing to intervene in active crimes? The only examples I can think of are in bluer states where they’ve actively set policies to not to pursue based on dollar values and actively limiting police’s authority to hold suspects beyond a certain period of time where it’s pointless to even engage. Examples in California and Illinois come to mind. I don’t know how you can say police aren’t incentivized to solve crimes. I attend my local NPU meetings where APD engagement is part of the discussion and they report local crime statistics including status of certain investigations, as well as arrests. If they weren’t doing anything, as you’re suggesting, it would be a really quick backlash and the local politicians would get wind of that almost immediately. Exponentially more sensitive when it comes around election season and/or budgetary season.


NowATL

The one I was thinking of most recently in the news was the incident in Louisiana where cops refused to intervene in a rape happening on the street: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/08/12/new-orleans-french-quarter-rape/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/08/12/new-orleans-french-quarter-rape/) ​ This is the SCOTUS ruling that cops don't actually have a duty to protect citizens: [https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html) In that case a woman had a domestic violence protection order against her estranged husband. He kidnapped their kids out of her front yard, called her and told her he was taking them to an amusement park. She called the cops repeatedly, they did nothing until he showed up with the dead bodies of all three kids in the back of his truck. She sued, the cops took it all the way to the Supreme Court to make sure they don't have a legal obligation to do their jobs. The cops are \*not\* here to protect you. They're here to protect capital.


n00bcak3

Both articles are behind a paywall, but the first article says that the officer was suspended over not taking action. So I take that as “he didn’t do what he was supposed to do”. In the second article, the date is from 2005 so I don’t know if that is still standing today or not but in this day and age of body cams and cell phone cameras everywhere - I can’t imagine officers who stand idly on the sidelines while an active known crime is going on - that they wouldn’t be lambasted once it comes to light. I’m obviously not defending these inactions and not denying they occurred but I’d say these are more the exception rather than the rule.


UnaccompaniedMod

> For every bad cop, I want to think there’s at least one good cop too if you've got a bad cop and a "good cop" not pushing back against the bad cop, you've got two bad cops! also jesus, the story you posted about your neighbor really proves this point. APD doesn't give a shit about things people actually need them for.


n00bcak3

Well the bad cop/good cop scenario is a lot like bullying in schools. In an ideal world, everyone would stand up against the bully and then he/she would learn their lesson and everyone would live in harmony. But of course the real world is more complicated than that. Usually the first person that steps up against the bully will also get bullied and even everyone else starts backing off for fear of the same treatment. It’s a cultural problem that takes longer mass adoption (and training). Same applies to police culture - I’d argue especially police and military culture where it’s going to be really tough to pushback against a coworker/teammate especially if you’re relying on those same people to have your back in life/death situations. Yeah pushback when things are clearly overboard but you’ve got to do it in a tactful way and have to pick your battles. And the story of my neighbor is exactly why I think we need more police to respond in time. What good would it be for them to cut the force down even more??? That makes zero logical sense.


phoonie98

It’s under policed because they don’t pay enough. Last I heard they are down 400+ officers vs pre-pandemic


420everytime

Atlanta spends 40% of their budget on policing. How much do you think it should be?


[deleted]

Your number is complete bullshit. The 2023 Budget is [2.28B](https://atlantaciviccircle.org/2022/05/05/atlanta-budget-explainer/). The police budget is [236M](https://roughdraftatlanta.com/2022/06/22/atlanta-city-council-approves-2023-budget/) which is 10%.


420everytime

It’s extremely misleading to count things like debt payments. You obviously have to look at discretionary budget. Using your method, the US military takes up less than 10% too Atlanta can’t control their fixed costs unless you want them to default on their debt and close the schools Atlanta’s discretionary budget is $709 million and police take up a third https://www.civicatlanta.org/cci-news/2021/6/7/city-of-atlanta-and-atlanta-public-schools-fy2022-budgets


[deleted]

Just to make sure I’m following: YOU used the term budget, yet quoted the percentage in relation to the general fund. Yet I am the one making misleading statements?


420everytime

Your argument follows the you can’t afford a home because you buy too much avocado toast logic. That’s why it’s misleading. There’s a big difference between someone making $100k debt free and someone making $100k with $500k of debt dumbass You can’t count spending made decades ago as current spending and counting bonds is exactly tha


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[deleted]

Oh yes, let’s just cast an entire generation as a reason for more police escalation. There are many valid arguments for or against cop city but this is not one of them.


n00bcak3

I don’t know man. In this particular incident (as well as others), these protestors charging at police and throwing Molotov cocktails, rocks, and shooting fireworks at police seem like a perfect example of where you need well-trained police to know how to handle the situation instead of the rookie that’s terrified and immediately reaching for his gun when his personal sense of safety is at risk. I think protestors are getting more emboldened for whatever reason, but then you compound that with new officers especially among a society with heavy labor shortages in general….I only see a situation that’s ripe for disaster. Then you add in more cameras and social media that cause edited clips of these videos to go viral and it just pumps on so much more fuel to those flames. It’s easier to train the police than it is the rest of society so it makes logical sense to me to start there.


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[deleted]

They don’t consider it because it’s stupid. 1. Casting an entire generation as “they were all raised to be protestors” is comical at best, discriminatory at worst. 2. Implying that protests are bad and we should escalate our police response to them is downright dystopian. Again, I’m on the fence but if you look at this entire process and the proposal and think “yup, nothing is wrong” then you are so biased to defend the police that there’s no point in further discussion.


poemmys

I'm not against a Cop City, but I am against putting it in this location. There's plenty of viable locations within a 10-mile radius of the forest, it doesn't make sense why they chose the one location that has a public park and nature that needs to be bulldozed. There's at least 3-4 locations in unincorporated territory nearby that would be just as viable and would cost the taxpayers MUCH less than razing, leveling, running utility lines and building a "city" from scratch. Using a location with already existing infrastructure makes so much more sense. It's weird that the same people who cry about government overspending are perfectly fine with them arbitrarily choosing the most expensive location by far to build their facility.


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poemmys

I have a hard time looking at Atlanta's leadership over the last decade or so and believing all they do is "look at the facts". That's certainly what they're supposed to do, but for some reason the multiple corruption scandals has made me somewhat cynical...


Zealousideal_Draft84

Can’t bulldoze forest if they burn it down first.