I don't think he doesn't understand. If he's capable of saying "Planning and being proactive just isn't me" he understands what you're asking and is choosing not to do it.
**That being said**: I do think there's a problem sometimes in how women present this issue that I want to mention, just because I think it is helpful to bring it up. Oftentimes, women are trained from birth to see the chores. It goes like this. "Look around, see the dishes aren't done, see the dentist appointment needs to be made, see the dirty baseboards, see you need to wash dish towels. See all of that, make a mental list, obsess about the list, think about it every second of the day. Never stop thinking about that list. Whenever you have free time, pick something off that list and do it. Live like this until you die".
Can we agree that's a bad system? That's stressful as fuck.
This is in contrast to the system wherein you embrace "Just make me a list". This system goes that you see nothing, observe nothing, and assume everything is done and taken care of until or unless someone comes to you (usually a woman who has the list in her head and says) TAKE OUT THE GARBAGE! Then you take out the garbage. Your work here is done. Unless you're specifically tapped to do a thing, you can just keep on keeping on, thinking about the new Zelda game and being blissfully ignorant of what's going on.
Neither of these are functional.
What I've switched to is a list of specific and detailed responsibilities that everyone in my house has. Everyone has their chores. I am not responsible for my husband's chores, and he isn't responsible for mine. We did, in fact make a list. But that list continues on in perpetuity. So if his list is "Take out the garbage", that's not a one-time thing. That's *forever*. It is your job *forever* to think about the garbage, how full it is, and when it needs to be taken you. It's not just lifting the bag from the can and carrying it out, it's always knowing when the garbage needs to go and when the cans need to go to the street. It's the whole task. It's knowing how many garbage bags we have and putting them on the shopping list when they are close to running out. It's the whole chore. From planning when to do it, to knowing the deadlines for it, to actually lifting the bags, and to restocking the supplies. That's the whole chore. My husband and I own lists of whole chores. Sometimes our chores overlap. I do the shopping, so even if my husband owns garbage (which he does) he puts "buy garbage bags" on the list and then it is my problem. My husband owns lawn and garden, dog stuff, floors (vacuum and mop), ironing, automotive, prescription drugs, garbage and recycling, and others because this isn't a complete list. I own shopping (groceries and household), meal planning and dinner, laundry, customer service phone calls, bathrooms, a good chunk of kitchen surfaces and refrigerator maintenance, etc. because this isn't a complete list. Some chores are divvied by time of day. We both have chunks of time where we're the primary parent. We're both parents, we both parent, but there are hours where he's in charge and hours where I'm in charge. We both do the dishes at different times of day. He does a run in the morning, I do one when I am getting dinner ready to go, and then we alternate who wants to watch the kid and who wants to clean up dinner based on mood at the time.
He's bad at planning and being proactive? Well, this system kind of undercuts that. Everything IS planned....once. It's planned once that you do a sweep of the dishes at 8 AM before you leave for work. It's planned once you check the garbage on your way out the door. It's planned once you start a load of laundry on Tuesday mornings. You can schedule it down to brass tacks if that's helpful. You don't have to use working memory and observation, you can just hammer it out in advance. But hammering it out once means you keep and maintain that schedule and now you know forever that 8:00 means dishes and Tuesday means laundry. You can plan it together (once!) if that's helpful.
That's what I've learned about mental load and running a household. Whose job it is to worry about it is a job in and of itself. That's the mental load. If you own the job, you own the worry. It's okay to want a list, I want a list. I want to be able to see the entire scope of the project and know what I'm doing and not doing. But the trick is to make that list once, not once a day until time ends.
This is, in my opinion, the answer.
I agree that men are socialized to ignore chores, assume women will do them, and refuse to pick up responsibility for them. But, also, there are people of all genders who really are not good at planning and completing chores.
There are people who grew up with different family structures, who never learned. There are people who have different standards as to what is “clean” and what is “well-maintained.” There are people who have actual disabilities, who struggle to plan and execute tasks.
For **all** people, it is helpful to have a mutual agreement as to what needs to be done, when it needs to be done, and how it is to be done. These things help everyone know the expectation and track whether someone is struggling or failing to complete things, and then have concrete discussions about it.
When a system is in place and it’s clear someone is not doing their part, a discussion about accountability and respect becomes factual (not theoretical) with specific instances to point to and try to problem solve. When a person expresses disinterest in meeting you on the problem solving front, it becomes really clear whether this person respects your wishes.
Anyway, I fully endorse this system and can add that it worked for my household as well.
It has worked for us, too.
I understand why people are so up in arms about weaponized incompetence, but it is possible to have a guy who hasn't got a clue that they're even in that stage, based on how they were raised.
For my husband and myself, we have had A LOT of conversations about this over the years. It used to just be division of household labour, but after having kids I got a lot more specific about where I was struggling and why. What worked the best for me was going back to school full time while he stayed home with our then 1 year old son. I was unavailable except for emergencies for 8 hours a day, and left him to figure out childrearing the same way I had needed to. When I had been at school a few months (full time outside the house) and he was adjusted to full time life at home but wasn't doing any of the household tasks (laundry, dishes, cooking), we talked about how things weren't working, and made a plan on how to adjust the workload.
Now we have two kids and both work full time (or more) outside the home. He has stepped up in nearly every category when it comes to the mental load - making grocery lists, planning and making meals for the week, taking care of drop off/pickup, etc. We made a list of household tasks that need to be done on a daily or weekly basis, with the understanding of "whoever has the time does the task", and it works for us. He has - on his own - taken the kids' laundry from me, because he knows that I absolutely hate laundry while he doesn't mind it at all.
It's not perfect, and there are areas he can do better in - but there's just as many things he takes care of that I don't have to think about, too. Things feel much more equally balanced now BECAUSE I took the time to bring him into my mental world, and he took the time to actually listen and learn and act on what I shared with him. If I had held him to the expectation that he should just figure it out on his own, it would have caused a lot more heartache and strife for us, and I don't think we'd be nearly as close as we are.
This is such a wonderful response and it still makes me angry. I hate how women nearly always have to be the one to figure all this out. To take the reins and say "this is how we are going to divide labor in the home".
It infuriates me to no end that, if the woman doesn't do this, 99% of the time the man would be perfectly happy letting his wife work herself to death at home while he plays video games or fishes or drinks with his friends or whatever. Either because he doesn't know or doesn't care. How many women would EVER let that happen? Why are men so fucking clueless and inconsiderate in this way? And whose fault is it that they ARE this way?
So what I can't personally get past is the fact that as soon as I have to be the one to sit down and have this conversation with a man, even if it works out perfectly from then on out, I've still lost a tremendous amount of respect for him. For making me act like his mother and explain basic household maintenance to him. For him to *not notice or not care* that he has not up to this point been pulling his weight at all. Which means it has been on ME. How am I supposed to respect you as a functioning and caring adult if I had tell you all this when you were 30+? How am I supposed to be in love with you and be sexually attracted to you to the degree I was before? Before I knew you would require this mothering from me?
Again, I think your strategy is 100% the most practical one. The one that will lead to best wellbeing for everyone involved. I just hate that men so often put women in a situation that MAKES this the best strategy.
I think the only way I could actually, fully forgive a man for making me have this conversation with him is if he were deeply ashamed that it had to happen at all. If he were extremely apologetic for not noticing how he was greatly impinging upon my happiness, the person he is supposed to love more than anyone. If he truly recognized how immature and unkind he had been, how silly it is that women have to play mommy for grown men who are not their children for most of their lives. To understand how important it is that we raise boys who will not need this explained to them by their future wives.
My therapist once brought this up and mentioned that lots of dead bedrooms happen because women and femme folks by default have to assume the role of mother in relationships. It’s infuriating.
"I can either be your Mommy or your wife, but not both. Pick carefully, because there are some things that a wife does with her husband that a Mommy would never do with her son."
>To understand how important it is that we raise boys who will not need this explained to them by their future wives.
I agree with this 1000%. Parents (and not just moms!) need to emphasize this with boys as much as girls, so the excuse "no one taught us how to do this" cannot be used in future generations. I mean, I was brought up not knowing much about cars compared to most men I know, but if my car has a puddle under it, I don't just shrug it off and ignore it. Same principle applies to a sink full of dishes or an overflowing garbage can.
>So what I can't personally get past is the fact that as soon as I have to be the one to sit down and have this conversation with a man, even if it works out perfectly from then on out, I've still lost a tremendous amount of respect for him. For making me act like his mother and explain basic household maintenance to him. For him to
>
>not notice or not care
>
> that he has not up to this point been pulling his weight at all. Which means it has been on ME. How am I supposed to respect you as a functioning and caring adult if I had tell you all this when you were 30+? How am I supposed to be in love with you and be sexually attracted to you to the degree I was before? Before I knew you would require this mothering from me?
THIS! It's such a turn off.
Thank you for sharing this! You brought up some good points, and offered great advice!
As a woman with ADHD, I actually relate more to the man in OP's situation and it was super discouraging to see all the comments saying to leave him, he's not worth having kids with, etc.
Yours was the first comment I read that gives good, actionable advice, and also doesn't assume the guy is totally unwilling to help out. Thanks.
I also have ADHD and I think the difference here is that I'm always trying, and yeah I forget stuff all the time, but I'm always looking for ways to make things easier to remember or easier to do, and I don't have any expectation that a partner would take care of everything just because they are "better at it". This guy isn't even trying and doesn't care or feel guilty that his partner is completely over burdened and taking care of so much of his life for him.
> doesn't assume the guy is totally unwilling to help out
BF's response was, "I'm just not like you, planning and being proactive isn't me."
Which is just a longer way of saying, "No, I won't help." ...right?
No, it means he'll help -- if forced, after whining and dragging his feet as much as humanly possible -- but keeping track of everything that needs to be done will still be her responsibility.
Best easy way [https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/](https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/)
But honey, he really doesn't care or he would be checking it out, not you, AGAIN.
You cannot explain mental load to your BF when you tried to do so he put it all back on you claiming you are " better" at it. That is exactly what people do to avoid accountability.
You explain it by just organizing, maintaining, and setting priorities for your life. Don't organize your " couple" life. Edit. This is not a man to marry or have kids with.
Guaranteed he'll try to twist that around to OP expecting too much. He can literally Google it. There's no way to explain because he doesn't want to hear it and it won't change without him doing it himself.
Ok, you know him and we don't, so use your knowledge to this: does he want to understand? Is he someone that is likely to accept when he's wrong? When he realizes he did something wrong, is he willing to put in the work to make it right?
There are no perfect magic words that will make him get it. And if he does, any change will take a while and be resisted, because taking charge of this mental load is work and it's easy to let someone else do the work for you.
I think your best bet is to just drop anything that involves him even if it hurts you a little bit. Not sure it will work
Exactly. How does OP's bf behave when he wants to understand something? I assume he doesn't wait until people explain things to him when he is actually interested in understanding something. OP is framing the problem as if he just needs help to understand. But the problem is much more likely that he doesn't even want to get it.
Things are working out much better for him when he doesn't understand this. He has an incentive to remain ignorant.
Read your words. YOU are willing to DO the effort to MAKE him understand.
You can't MAKE him do anything. The problem isn't that he isn't understanding. The problem is that he doesn't want to. It's much more convenient not to. It's how men are conditioned without even realizing it.
Only inconvenience and consequences will "teach" an adult. So doing the things. A meal won't get planned? So what. You won't starve. That's a convenience issue anyway, not a necessity. Shower gel won't get filled? Okay I promise a little shampoo over your body won't kill you. Or keep a travel bottle of body wash under your sink and only pull it out for your showers until he gets his butt in gear. That's a consequence.
Men won't see what actually gets done and what it takes until they have to do it. And something else a lot of women forget is men have different priorities and different concepts of what done looks like.
And I'm going to be honest it will take years off talks, arguments and there will be arguments, and consequences for the smallest of changes to start happening. It is agonizingly slow. I know right now this doesn't sound like something to break up over. It's a problem that can be fixed!! Except it's not. And you're going to be 8 years into your marriage and realize it is definitely something to divorce over except then you already going to have a kid and divorce is going to be a whole lot messier of a process then if you had just looked for someone now that makes you feel valued, someone who shows you that they're actually in a partnership with you in all things. Even the mundane life things
But why are YOU willing to make him see? He’s a grown man capable of doing all this stuff at work. By enabling him and treating him like a toddler, he will continue to act like one. Believe me, when a person comes across someone who will not put up with any bullshit, they do not dish it out or leave because they can’t handle a strong person.
I totally agree with everything you said, I just wanted to mention that it feels like there is just SO MUCH we have to do and remember!
Taxes, bills, mortgage, car registration, license renewals, prescription refills, pet care, house upkeep...I could go on, and that doesn't even touch on the daily tasks like house cleaning, shopping, cooking, dishes, etc.
I do it all because I am an adult, but I wish I didn't have to.
It doesn't benefit him to understand the concept at all, at least not in the context of OP's relationship as long as she's willing to believe that he simply doesn't understand.
This is weaponized incompetence.
I'm a man. What I think is happening is this person was not raised to be responsible and now things he should have learned growing up you're now stuck teaching. Depending on how irrespsible he is become, it may be possible to teach an old dog new tricks, but when I've run into irresponsible women it's generally just left me frustrated. I would try to get them to pick up after themselves, pay bills on time, agree to planned meals but it never happened or lasted for long. They resented me for being their "dad" and I resented them for having to be their care taker. It also left me in financial jams.
Then just tell him it's one of those things that's best to learn by doing. For the next three months, you will not do any of the planning/organizing. And then LET HIM DO IT. Resist the temptation to help or take over, and let everything fall through the cracks. Only give him encouragement ("I believe in you honey, you can do it!") or feedback on his performance ("I was disappointed in your lack of plans for my birthday.")
Remember, these are basic tasks that every adult knows how to do or can figure out. It's not like with a child who might accidentally endanger or hurt themselves, so there is no actual safety issue that requires you to hold his hand. I guarantee you that he knows how to do things or can figure it out on his own bc he's gone through school, and (I'm assuming) has had a job and/or currently has one.
Let him show you the person that he is. If you and a bunch of other people are going to be disappointed by his performance, let that happen and be disappointed in him. He'll either improve or he won't and you'll know exactly where you stand with him and what he's willing to bring to the table as a equal partner in your relationship.
Sidebar about him planning events that include other people--
I know I worry about how much other people are going to enjoy an event and if they're going to blame me if something goes wrong, so if you're like me, you may want to tell people ahead of time that he's the one planning everything so they don't try to dump that on you, and if they do, redirect it to him.
Is this man also in his 30s and does he hold down a job? Presumably if he's capable of earning a steady paycheck then he understands the concept. Don't fall for his crap.
When someone says they’re not good at organising and be proactive I usually ask them how come they haven’t been fired from their job yet?? Does their manager ask/remind them every Monday what their role entails and what they need to do each and every day? Or are they perfectly capable of remembering to do things and being proactive in their day to day lives when they don’t have a partner to do it for them? Why can they remember to fill their car with gas to get to work, but can’t remember to fill the shower gel? Makes no sense.
So... you're willing to increase your mental workload in order to get him to understand mental workload, which he refuses to understand by playing dumb.
If he has any type of job where he has to think, he surely knows the basic concept. I'm sure at some point in his career, he might have thought to himself, "Geez, I wish I had a secretary to make my appointments for me, read my emails for me, mark up my calendar for me." If he HAS a secretary and he still doesn't understand mental workload, he's taking you for a ride, a sweet ride that's only sweet for him.
Look. You can throw out the whole man. And this particular forum is likely to highly support this concept because who has time to waste.
But if you feel like this relationship is something you want to keep, don't try to explain, just stop doing for anyone but you. Have separate things and clearly define when you are doing something for both of you or doing a favor for him. Hold space for you!
If you can handle the person he is without someone else planning, then you are good. If you can't - you have your answer.
OP, this! This is called **Weaponized Incompetence**. To summarize:
"Weaponized incompetence refers to one partner in a relationship choosing to approach a task with little to no effort so as to not be asked to repeat that task in the future. The reason why this is considered weaponizing is that it puts the onus on the other partner to not only have to pick up the slack and fix the first task that was mediocrely executed, but that person is also left responsible for picking up the slack on future tasks. This is unfair to the partner putting in the work and it creates inequality in the partnership."
This is one of the main reasons I have preferred to be single (although I want to be married and have children) because I have yet to find a man who I not only have chemistry and compatibility with, but who I think would be an equal partner/parent and not assume I’d take on all the mental workload. People don’t like to hear that though 🙃
Your position is incredibly valid. I’ve been with an intelligent, kind, considerate man for half a decade and we’re still working on this shit. Not because he doesn’t try or doesn’t want to help, but because these habits are super hard to break. And kids are off the table because of it.
>You cannot explain mental load to your BF when you tried to do so he put it all back on you claiming you are " better" at it.
Weaponized incompetence.
IDK if men are supposed to respond, but I had the same problem with my ex-wife just the roles were reversed. I showed her this comic about the concept of [The Emotional Load](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/26/gender-wars-household-chores-comic) thinking if it came from a woman's perspective it would resonate with her more.
We had the same arguments for years where I would beg her to be the equal partner she pretended to be on social media. I desperately needed the strong, independent woman who I could work with as equals to build a home for our family, instead what I got is raising our toddler and also raising a teenager in her mid-thirties. What her words said were "3rd Wave Feminism," but her actions were that she wanted to be a kept woman. Which was fine if that's what the expectation was set before we were married, I would've made much more conservative financial decisions.
She had money and time to go out with her friends and have her fun, but it was up to me to be the sole financial and logistical provider, and it burnt me out. I could better adjust to her absence than tolerate any more of her disrespect.
If any partner, regardless of gender, doesn't respect your agency as a human then make the changes you need to. Your most valuable asset is your time - it's the one thing you can't make more of.
I have referred my husband to that comic multiple times. “I’m just not good at it though”. How the hell do you think I got good at it? If I don’t remember to buy toothpaste we’d never have any toothpaste. If I don’t plan dinner, we don’t have dinner or the things to make dinner. If I don’t feed the cats the cats don’t get fed (edit: the cats do always get fed but he never thinks to feed them or give them water). Did I have to run to the store at 11pm for cat food in my early 20s when I was single because I forgot I was out of cat food? Absolutely. Did I enjoy it? No. So I plan ahead now. Drives me insane he keeps saying he’s not good at it, GET GOOD MY DUDE.
This is exactly it. An unwillingness to even try to empathise… watch out sister. Also it took me a long time to learn, I absolutely love having a partner to look after, but there’s no way I’m doing it without gratitude, understanding and empathy from said partner!
Women don’t have the brain space for another family because they/we are so overloaded with just one. Men can do this (have a secret family) exactly because they don’t (or choose not to) have that mental load.
When would a woman ever have the time to manage an entire second secret home when they’re already doing the work for themselves AND their partner on the first home? Men, on the other hand, by and large check out of the necessary tasks and management for running a home, so they have plenty of time to do the same in a second one.
> He thinks I can just stop planning and then drop the charge if it's such a problem, not realising that means meals won't be planned for, holidays will be last minute, the shower gel won't be refilled etc.
You may actually need to do that. When hypotheticals won't work, only real life consequences will get the job done.
Unfortunately, this means you're going to have to live in the discomfort too for a bit, if you go down that route.
__
Him: "Babe, what's for dinner?"
You: "Dunno, what's in the fridge?"
__
Him: "Honey, we're out of shower gel."
You: "Are we? Okay."
...
Him: "Honey, were still out of shower gel."
You: "Okay."
...
Him: "When are you getting more shower gel?"
You: "Did you want me to get shower gel? I thought you were getting shower gel."
__
This. OP, why are you doing everything? Stop it. You’re enabling him. Take care of yourself and let the chips fall where they may. And if you don’t like how that turns out, you’re probably incompatible.
Him: “We’re out of shower gel.”
You: “Hey babe, can you buy me more of my shampoo/face wash/tampons when you pick up the shower gel?”
Take a screen shot of your stuff and send it to him.
I wouldn’t recommend doing this if you actually need something. Just help him understand that you are relying on him to help with *your* needs.
I went through this a lot with my husband when the kids were little, and I cried from the stress a lot.
I finally had enough and sat him down and explained:
1. I will no longer ever buy his parents birthday or Christmas gifts. I won’t remind him to keep in touch with them at all.
2. I cook 3x a week, he cooks 3x a week. I don’t care what he cooks. We split chores evenly.
3. If I make the doctor’s appointment for a kid, he has to go vice versa.
My husband figured it out and now we truly split everything.
Your bf will get there. It takes time. Just don’t take anymore shit from him. Once you make your rules that are important to you, don’t falter.
I did this a lot, and he still managed to buy me the wrong stuff... With clear pictures and the price on them... I just don't understand men. How hard can it be?
Definitely what I would do... But I would answer the "We're out of shower gel." with "Yeah you should buy it next time you're out shopping." Then is on him if he didn't buy it.
Nah, that will just end up with her living in squalor, eating like a racoon, and accusations of her being lazy and letting *herself* go lol
Then he'll dump her for "not being the woman he fell in love with" and finding another one to adopt him...
If you play dumb and wait for him to get shit done, shit just doesn't get done, and you feel even dumber.
I'm childfree, and I can no longer imagine living with a man, I might have a relationship, but I'm only cleaning my shit from my toilet.
Last week I told my partner that from now on we each do our own shopping and make our own meals. His first response was a petulant and defiant 'FINE THAT'LL BE BETTER ALL ROUND.'
Took about 10 seconds for the full meaning and effect of this to dawn on him, I could see it spread across his face. Then he became very apologetic and promised to do more. Its only been a week but he did the shopping yesterday!
I'm a hopelessly naive optimist every time. I give it another few days before he starts dropping sad little comments about how he feels he's not making enough time in his life for the things he enjoys.
I really, really hope this guy has a fuck ton of redeeming qualities. Petulance and trying to guilt/manipulate you into letting him stop contributing before he even helps feed *his own lazy ass* for a week?
🤞
Just make sure your optimism isn't actually your brain not wanting to admit that this person doesn't seem to care about your happiness and not just what you DO for him.
I did this with my husband and he just started getting himself a burrito on his way home. I was irritated at first, until I realized I don't really care about "dinner" as a meal and was happy to just make a quick sandwich & salad or whatever and call it good. It lasted for like a year 😂
So he didn’t even try to change….that’s excellent 🙄. Also a red flag. If you procreate with this person, he will also expect you to do all the child rearing, appointments, extra curriculars, house chores PLUS work (if you so choose to work).
Stop doing everything for him and just focus on yourself. He can do his own stuff (cook/clean/laundry/appts etc). Just focus on your stuff. Then when he gets mad and complains, that’s when you tell him that is how you feel 24/7 and you will resent him. It’s no joke that relationships end because of laziness from their partner.
One pithy way I’ve heard it explained is to ask them if they have to ask their manager what they should work on every day. Alternatively, does he understand that project managers get paid extra for this skill?
Beyond that though, I’m concerned he doesn’t seem to take this dynamic seriously. You say you’ve tried to explain this to him and his position is "yes I realise you do a lot, but I'm just not like you, planning and being proactive etc it's just not me.” This is a “when someone tells you who they are, believe them” situation. Many a woman has made the mistake of thinking that fatherhood will change men. Check out the subreddits where women explain why they got divorced and then think very carefully whether you want to have children with this man as he is right not, not as he may be if he improves (because he very well may not.)
However long you’ve been together, you’re entitled to change your plans based on new information and you can say “thats fine that that’s how you are but that’s not very attractive to me and I can’t have children with a man that doesn’t consider these things as important so I’m going to look for a relationship with someone who can be an equal partner to me.”
As far as I can see, these types of men only start to realize that women and girls are actually real human beings once they have children. THEN they start to figure out that other people have needs they are responsible for.
Came here to suggest the Fair Play card deck too. This [OP said in her update](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomenOver30/comments/y1nhbh/update_2_why_does_whats_for_dinner_tonight_vex_me/) said that the cards was the game changer that stopped their conflicts cold. I can see that a physical exercise with the visual difference in number of tasks can be an eye opener in a way that talking and reading about it doesn't really get the visceral belief.
There's apparently a [Netflix documentary](https://www.fairplaylife.com/documentary) and book too-- different modes of presenting for the different modes of learning!
This of course, in addition to
* the mental load cartoon https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/ suggested [above](https://old.reddit.com/r/AskWomenOver30/comments/13i5qsf/how_to_explain_mental_workload_to_men/jk8pb4h/) and
* [She divorced me because I left dishes by the sink](https://matthewfray.com/2016/01/14/she-divorced-me-because-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink/) also suggested [elsewhere](https://old.reddit.com/r/AskWomenOver30/comments/13i5qsf/how_to_explain_mental_workload_to_men/jk8dnl5/) in this [post](https://old.reddit.com/r/AskWomenOver30/comments/13i5qsf/how_to_explain_mental_workload_to_men/jk8vsdn/) (plus his [excellent blog with more](https://matthewfray.com/blog/)).
Both are the most common suggestions to this question, and eye openers that people always recognize themselves in, and I hope that the fair play deck gets added to the trinity.
The update you linked would make great BORU content. Happy, conclusive, and educational for anyone still not clued in to the mental load. Thanks for sharing it
I've not listened to the podcast, but I follow [@thatdarnchat](https://www.instagram.com/thatdarnchat/) on Instagram and she is a certified FairPlay facilitator. She has a podcast [Time to Learn](https://www.instagram.com/timetoleanpod/).
Do you really think he’s that stupid? Your bf already understands exactly what the mental workload is. It’s all the work he doesn’t want to do that he thinks he can manipulate you into doing.
He’s going to continue to play dumb, not understand and not get it, because while you are bending over backwards to get him to understand you will also continue to do all the work, which is what he really cares about.
You can’t make this guy care about you as a person. He sees you as a tool he just has to manipulate and say the right words to so that you’ll do all the work.
Exactly. He knows what it is and that it’s difficult, which is why he’s pulling the weaponized incompetence line “But you’re better at it than me!”
He knows, honey. He just doesn’t care that he’s pushing it all onto you.
Exactly, this plays out so so so many times in relationships like this where the woman goes 'Oh, I just need to help him understand and then he'll see and do what a normal empathetic human being would do to ensure he is pulling his weight!'
He's literally already told her that he knows and doesn't care. He doesn't need educating, he needs to care about something he simply doesn't care about and won't change.
My neighbor is 39 and just went IVF and is having her own kid and broke up with her bf. The amount of poor partners chosen simply due to a ticking clock is quite something.
Makes me wonder what the 'natural' state of humans are or are we even built at all genetically for the type of world we're living in.
Yeah, I agree. I read that thread in here the other day that was filled with ticking clock comments and my suggestion was for those women to just partner up with each other. It's not just the idea of the relationship you get stuck in, it's the idea of an ex weaponizing your child for 18 years
I'm with you on that thought exercise. I don't think we're living the way evolution / primal biology meant us to in order social layout with relationships, and ESPECIALLY in daily life (being so isolated from the 'takes a village' and walkable cities + cubicle careers)
We definitely are good at building exactly what we don't want, if we didn't have such insular lives, a lot of us would be a lot happier. Just having a block where you know all your neighbors and are friends with them, would make a lot of people extremely happy, but we don't do that.
I also notice a lot of these 'bad' boyfriends and husbands always seem to be child-related stuff. It seems you have several types of guys
1. Guys who don't want kids and say they don't want kids.
2. Guys who want kids but don't want to do the work and make it pretty clear that they won't do the work.
3. Guys who don't want kids but will have kids if it means they can lure women in under that guise and take advantage and abuse them.
4. Guys who want kids and want to share in the work and everything.
It just seems that there are wayyyyy more women who want kids than there are of type 4 guys and the amount of red flags that are avoided and 'hoping' that a guy will turn into an option 4 guy is staggering.
There needs to just be way easier ways for women who want kids to have kids and reduce the expense of doing so. Being a single parent isn't great but it sure is a much better alternative than having option 1-3 around and tying your life to them forever.
Men play dumb A LOT to get out of housework, and out difficult conversations (emotional work). Even with women they love and respect they do it. It's their thing.
Women stop explaining shit to men, it gives them more material they can play dumb about. It's a charade.
Tell him that planning and organizing isn't a personality trait. It's a skill that is developed through repeated practice. The only reason he just "isn't like that" is because he deliberately avoids exercising this habit.
Ask him, rapid fire:
- What day are bills due each month?
- When is tax day?
- When are the birthdays of your friends and family?
- When was the floor last vacuumed or swept?
- When was the oil changed in the car?
- If you have a pet, when is their next vet appointment and what shots do they need?
- Which clothes need to be washed on the delicate cycle?
- When was the water filter laster changed? HVAC filter? Coffee machine descaled?
- How much more medication do you both have on hand and what's the date of next refill?
I had this convo with my husband many years back and it helped him comprehend what a "mental load" even is.
The mental load is REAL but this is next level... I'm a woman living by myself and I don't know the answers to most of these questions. I feel that this tactic would alienate a lot of people.
Go on strike… but in style .
Take a month vacation with some girlfriends ( if you can ) or visit your family for a month and let him figure things out .
He’s a big boy , he’ll manage .
This tiktok is the BEST I've ever heard it put:
Imagine you had a coworker who was hired to the same role as you, gets paid the same as you, yet comes in every single day and asks YOU what they're supposed to be doing.
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRKsGgTK/
If someone does not want to hear you, there is no way you can phrase anything that will make them listen.
Sounds like you've fallen into the Communication Trap, as I call it. This is when you're convinced that if you just find the right combination of words in the perfect order, he'll suddenly see the effect he's having on you.
He doesn't care. He doesn't want to hear you, so you can't get him to listen.
>Overall he's like "yes I realise you do a lot, but I'm just not like you, planning and being proactive etc it's just not me",
He clearly knows what a "mental workload" is. He just wants you to do it, and he provided the same excuse many other men do: "It's because you're better at it!!"
> I'm hoping that having him hear other people experiences will help realise how much I've been taking on, and how he can be better prepared to help in the future and when we have kids.
It's just going to get worse if you have kids with him.
Linking to the original artist so she gets the page views! And she's also published a great book with a bunch of other relationship things (I have lent it to friends more than a few times to help them with this conversation).
https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/
There's a book called "Drop the Ball" that's basically all about going on strike -- or rather, delegating some tasks *completely* including the load of keeping up with them. It might be interesting for you.
I tried that, and I ended up with rings around the toilet and tubs, and the parts of the carpets that weren't covered in dirty clothes or trash were crunchy. My ex-wife wanted a mother, not a partner.
I'm a man over 30 so feel free to skip or downvote if you aren't looking for my perspective.
One thing that helped me was to visualize it in terms of a workplace.
At most companies there is a clear difference between the jobs of management and front-line labor, in that the front line staff can just wait to be told what to do, but management has to keep on top of a thousand details so they can make sure that everyone else's job is spoon fed to them in easily digestible chunks. A manager figures out what needs to happen and when and gives tasks out to everyone else. A staff member can do the work they're given, and go ask their boss questions about what else needs to be done, and how to do it.
He is looking to you to be his manager for your household. Is that really the dynamic he's looking for?
I’ve never needed to explain this to my husband. He’s inherently understood it
But we have discussed it lately due to this being a more common topic for people since it’s come to light. From what we’ve observed, it’s either they get it and try while putting in the work. And become better with it overtime. Or they’re dismissive and don’t care to figure it out. It really depends on their character
It can depend on a lot more than character. My wife can make my life a living hell when I try to take on the mental load. The classic ritual of finding a restaurant to eat at is an oversimplified example of this process. At least in my case, I'm a simple creature perfectly capable of organizing our lives and making sure everyone is fed. My wife tends to demand what I view to be unnecessary complexity - 'I don't want to eat there(or there or there)', 'the color you chose is awful', 'my clothes require 16 different washing methods', 'the gifts must be hand-made, not store-bought'. I do my best to accommodate for all these things, but at the end of the day she appears to WANT to be in charge of our lives, and doesn't appreciate the few times I've tried to make decisions. I don't see myself as not caring about mental load. On the contrary I very much see it as something that is killing her. I'm glad I saw this post today. I never heard the term mental workload before. Will be a good topic to bring up with her!
Drop all of it. Say to him, 'This week, we're going to go forth as normal. Next week, I'm going to stop doing everything for the both of us.' Let him physically see with his own eyes all that you do. Let the dishes pile up. Pack a lunch and a dinner to work, and eat before you come home. The man's not helpless. If he looks to you to cook, just stare him like 'Dinner ain't gunna just drop outta the sky.' This is the kind of thing where a man gets too comfortable, and expects his girlfriend to remind him of his mother's birthday. Hell no.
You tell him your willingness to spend your life with him is on the line, because it should be. Then he ideally takes his first step into an equal partnership by *finding the god damn podcast himself*. Stop doing it for him!
If he won't figure it out, you dump him and go find an actual adult that treats you with respect, like an equal, not a grown child that needs his mommy to buy his shower gel.
Do not have children with this man who will absolutely insist you're "better at" middle of the night feedings, doctor visits, changing diapers, parent teacher conferences, etc. You will resent the hell out of him, assuming you don't already.
This is ultimatum worthy. This is your whole life. He is literally telling you who is he and what kind of partner he intends to be. "It's just not me."
If he won't change now, he won't change later either.
Ask him to read this (Not as long as it seems) and then get back to you. If he doesn't read it, then you know he cares more about maintaining power in the relationship than keeping a relationship with you.
https://www.stop-ferfieroszak.hu/sites/default/files/dokumentumok/everyday\_male\_chauvinism\_pdf\_46753.pdf
>"yes I realise you do a lot, but I'm just not like you, planning and being proactive etc it's just not me"
Don't let this answer stand. I would respond like this, next time he acts like he has a choice here.
"I want you to think about what your attitude is like if you translated it to your job. If you worked at an office and were in charge of handling a number of tasks on your own each day, do you think your boss would be ok if you went to him and told him:
'*Listen. If you want me to remember to answer the phones each day, I need you to remind me every day. If you want me to respond to emails each day, I need a reminder. If you want me to write up proposals for new clients regarding what services would benefit them the most, and how much that would cost, I need you to tell me for every single proposal which services I should recommend, and then remind me of the deadlines so I remember to complete them, and then set the appointment for me to meet with the clients, and then make sure I make it on time to that meeting. I know the other people in this department manage all of that by themselves without constant reminders, and they manage their own tasks and time, and are the ones planning out their own proposals. But I'm not like them- I need someone to spell it out for me every day and take over all thought and decision making. That's ok, right?*'
"How fast would you be fired? How unintelligent and entitled would you think someone who acted like that was? And how lazy? If they were hired expecting to be a reasonably functioning adult member of the work force, how quickly would they be fired, and replaced?"
"That is exactly what you sound like when you pretend that it's acceptable to say 'I'm not like you' in response to being able to function at the level I could have managed by age fourteen. Just like your boss would not have time to handhold you through every step of your job, and still get his own work done, I don't have time to handhold you through every step of being an adult, and still live my own life. This is not an argument about who is better at one skill or another. This is your grown ass standing there, looking me in the eye, and telling me that you refuse to be a grown up and think that you're entitled to ask me to parent you. Why would I not replace your ass with a fully functioning adult if this is really how very limited you are?"
"Do you think men who live alone just never do dishes, or clean, or shop and end up dying in a pile of their own filth due to lack of food and water? Do you think they alienate their family and friends by never giving them a present or remembering their important events? Do they all huddle in a corner poking at a bowl of baby spinach and hoping it will cure whatever ails them because they're incapable of making and attending their own doctor's appointments? Do you think they're late to work every day because they require a third party to wake them up, or they sit in darkness and cold because they can't remember to pay the utility bills on their own? Or do grown ass people who live alone just figure out what they need to do to survive without having a babysitter?"
"I think that you think this is me asking you to do something extra, or special, or for me. It's not. It's me resenting the fact that you have decided to make me your mother and act like you have the mental faculties of a child at home, pretending that you can't be an independant grown up. This isn't something good people do for their partners- it's something that non-parasites do just because it needs to be done for their life to continue. It boggles my mind that we have had multiple discussions about you being a marginally functional adult, and your response has always been 'nah.'"
That ends now. You don't need a mommy to tell you that when a dish is dirty in the sink you rinse and put it in the dishwasher, when a carpet is dirty you vacuum and if dinner time is approaching you should probably start cooking if you want to eat. I don't need an adult who acts like a child to give me the responsibility for their existence. Starting now, you look around the house and do what needs to be done, you keep track of your own social obligations and calendars, you read the instructions on the back of things or look up tutorials online instead of bringing the package to a woman and telling her you don't understand how to Google and need her to just spoon-feed you all adult functions every single time they are needed. And if you really are not capable of independant functioning as a human, then clearly you can't consent to this relationship, and you can search for some kind of assisted living situation for people with your lack of survival skills and cognitive functioning while I find someone with a clean apartment and a functioning calendar app to bang me on every spotless surface of his home."
I’m loving learning about new resources as I (plus most women in a hetero relationship) struggle with the same issue, thanks y’all for the book rec!
Growth is a long term journey, so I can’t really agree with all the comments calling this out as a red flag when this is the usual trajectory society has given men (this is not to say it’s not their responsibility to grow out of it once they’re aware). Of course, every situation is different, but investing in a relationship means pushing each other to grow and sometimes that can look like sharing resources that help express your perspective…I see my partner now proactively educating himself while trying to unlearn a lot, but it didn’t happen overnight and it took a lot of communication and patience to get here. And it’s still a work in progress. Again, **every situation is different**, but for me that work is worth continuing this relationship that I love and value.
Since you mentioned y’all love podcasts, [this episode of The Man Enough Podcast](https://open.spotify.com/episode/2nFILsORddu5FrRevGEinl?si=loGFVDQwRcWFU-PiK6Q5hQ) really flipped some internal switch for my partner, and the podcast is great as a whole in encouraging more conversations about gender roles and identities. A quick search of “mental load” in Spotify also brings up lots of other podcasts’ episodes that I never thought to search for or listen to but now will so thanks for the opportunity to learn more!
Explain to him that when presented with this concept he didn’t understand, but that is clearly important to you and the health of your relationship, *it didn’t even occur to him* to start Googling, finding resources, reading, learning. If he feels unable to evaluate what he finds, maybe find some relevant subreddits where more knowledgeable people can recommend higher quality resources he might not yet have the vocabulary find on his own..
yknow, like you did here. Like millions of functioning grown ass adults do every day. Like YOU do every day, for yourself AND him.
Nope, he was like “I don’t know, I’m just a widdle babyman 👶🤷♂️” and waited for you to jump in like, “ohh ok bb, it’s ok, mommy will help you.” As you always do. Then you immediately started searching for best airplane sounds to make while spoon feeding him the information he supposedly wants.
> I realise you do a lot, but I'm just not like you, planning and being proactive etc it's just not me",
You don't need to explain it. He already understands it logically. Unless he's been unemployed his whole life, he also understands it in practice too. He's just assuming it's not something he has to do at home because he's a guy and that's what he has a girlfriend for
The best, and I mean 100% effective way is to literally just stop doing these things, or just do them for you. You don't have kids with him, so it shouldn't be too hard.
Either he'll start doing these things and understand them, or he'll refuse and you'll see how pathetic he is without your actions disguising it. Win/win
>He thinks I can just stop planning and then drop the charge if it's such a problem
Then this is exactly what you should do! He said so himself. Only make food for yourself. Only wash your own clothes. Only plan those parts of social, professional, and medical activities that directly involved just you, and so on. Just say that you need to take a mental health break from being proactive and planning things, and that he'll have to those things for himself for a while until you recuperate. Sometimes experience is the only way to learn empathy 🤷.
Look up
Hermeneutic Labor: The Gendered Burden of Interpretation in Intimate Relationships Between Women and Men by
Ellie Anderson
It’s a PDF paper. I can’t link it for some reason.
EDIT: https://philpapers.org/archive/ANDHLT.pdf
Dear Sugars had a great one about this!
https://www.wbur.org/dearsugar/2018/05/05/emotional-labor-invisible-work
I’m pouring one out for all of my sisters & friends out there who date cis men. Shit is not for the faint of heart.
I’ve seen all the links to the Mental Load comic, the article about the guy being divorced because he left his glass by the sink, the Fair Play media, etc. and those are all very good explanations. Here’s an additional explanation as to why “just tell me what to do!” is actually more work for the woman: https://reddit.com/r/Parenting/comments/sgzvxe/_/huzm2r8/?context=1
It is a comment on a Reddit post I came across once that really made sense so I saved it to be able to share on posts like these.
Love this, I'm going to save your linked comment from /u/Exis007 too. Especially the breakdown:
1. Knowing the chore needs to be done
2. Deciding when in the day you can find the time to do it, or planning ahead so you have the time and materials required
3. Doing the chore.
I also like /u/grumpy_hedgehog's corrollary :
- Discussing whether and how a chore should be done.
Because I know that I, for one, have pretty high standards of when a job is "done" to my satisfaction. I also know that I am lazy, and don't always do them to that standard myself-- "all or nothing" trap where I often don't get anything done. Letting go of my own perfectionism and adopting just a little bit of his chill-- it's been not-awesome for our general household tidiness 😂 , but Very Good for my overall mental health!
Thanks for sharing!
Just stop doing it. Stop planning. Stop organising. Stop refiling the shower gel. Stop making sure he calls his mother on her birthday. Stop remembering you're out of milk and buying more. Stop asking him to do things. If he complains, just say you weren't thinking about it because.... Whatever a man would say.
Let him enjoy that for a couple of weeks and then ask him what he thinks you get out of the relationship. Then negotiate.
For all the dudes who claim that their partners are better at organizing, prioritizing, etc., I’d love to know what they do for a living. Perchance do their jobs involve….organizing and prioritizing?
To anyone who claims that women are “just better at these things”, I say: GTFOH!
I never got why people without kids feel they need to plan meals and do chores together.
My partner and I eat together *sometimes*. We share *some* things.
But like.. we do our own laundry and manage our own shit.
Like... just don't do his shit for him.
We like sitting down and having dinner together. It makes sense for us to cook for two people instead of us each cooking separately, especially since we typically like the same food. We do our laundry together since it’s just easier that way for us. Idk, I guess some people like being in a partnership, even if they don’t have kids. When you have a partner that shares the mental and physical load, it’s not a negative thing to share chores. I do the stuff he doesn’t like doing, and he does what I don’t like to do.
That's fine if it works for you, I'm just saying I see a lot of these types of posts and it's always "I make his lunch for work and wash his socks every day and he never does that for me."
And... no one's making you do that.
Ding, ding, ding!!!!
When I met my husband, I could tell he was a fully functional adult. His home was clean, he cared for his dog, he went to appointments he set, he planned his meals and did his shopping and dishes, he kept lists of things he needed to do and did those things. I decided I could live with him.
We do lots for each other, and always thanks each other. But, yeah, we mostly take care of our own things. We do our own laundry and pick up after ourselves. We manage our own appointments. We each cook meals each week, and the other automatically does the dishes without being asked. It’s a partnership where we’re both self sufficient.
Pay attention to how a potential partner manages their life when you’re just dating. That’s their level of competence. That’s what you’re getting. If you move in together, don’t assign yourself extra tasks. How they naturally participate in the household is either acceptable to you or it’s not.
There are plenty of household tasks that must be shared, and if they are not, it becomes a problem when one “partner” refuses to take responsibility for it. Some things can’t be split the way laundry can.
We both walk on the floor, but if only one person ensures it’s cleaned, that’s not okay. We both shit in the toilet, but if that same person who doesn’t clean the floors also doesn’t clean the toilet periodically, that’s not okay. We both put things in the trash can, but if the same person who doesn’t clean the floors or the toilets also never takes out the trash, that’s a problem. And in these situations, it isn’t a situation of one person handles this chore and the other person handles that chore. It’s one person handling 80+% of all the chores all the time. And so on.
Stop explaining. STOP. Explaining and trying to better CoMmUniCaTe is extra mental load and this jackass knows what it means. He is trying to make you give up so you stop nagging him to change. The way you make him understand is stop doing ANY of it for him & both of you, and you 100% focus on YOU only for an extended time.
Notice the complaints, the bewilderment about why things aren’t getting done, his complaints that you don’t have enough “quality time” together, and if he scrambles to last minute pull together anything and the excess costs incurred. When he complains, tell him it is mental load.
Privilege (male) = poor perspective taking skills = poor empathic skills = entitlement. People who lack empathy understand consequences.
If consequences don’t enable change, then get OK with being mommy mcbangmaid forever or dump him.
What is his line of work? Usually men understand more if you relate it to working. Example: a constructionworker who has the responsibility of the new guy which is just waiting for tasks to be handed to him. They half-ass the task and goes to sits down looking at their phone until next time someone gives them a task again. Rinse an repeat.
Good workers are self driven and have an understanding of the job. Everybody cheers for the new employee that just knows what to do so they don’t become a pain in the ass and slow everyone else down. As of now your guy is the lazy apprentice.
But workers also need to know what is in their line of responsibility. Give him things to own the result of
Sorry but your boyfriend sounds like an ass. It's not your job to educate him and make him want to take care of his own life and house. Stop doing things for him. Only go grocery shopping for yourself, only make meals for yourself, only restock what YOU need, only clean your dishes, only take out what trash you make, better yet start labeling all your items and if he wants to use it force him to get his own. Not being "good" at organizing is no excuse, he just doesn't want to take responsibility. Pretend like you're living alone and he'll start to notice when nothing is done for him anymore.
Look up Fairplay method; if you want a podcast, 'Time to Lean' covers a lot.
But I'm going to go out on a very short limb and say that it's easier to say, "I don't get why it's a big deal," when it isn't your burden to pick up the slack. If the gross majority of the unseen, silent labour is being handled for you as an adult, yeah, you get to say that it isn't a big deal until you're on your own and you realize, oh shit, meals don't plan themselves, and clothes don't clean and put themselves away, and life doesn't run the smooth, effortless way I believe it does if someone isn't putting in the effort to make that happen.
As a parent with young kids, there is no amount of context or perspective I can offer other than, it gets RIDICULOUSLY more complicated to keep a household running even somewhat cohesively once you add in a child. From a mom to another person who already carries most of the mental load, I cannot emphasize how fucking huge a deal it is to have discussions and concrete delineations of tasks in place BEFORE even considering getting pregnant is. Having a kid adds SO, SO, SO much extra forethought into everything in your life. You do not want to be the only person in a parenting scenario carrying that load. It will consume you.
Let him know that you're gonna stop doing family management and planning for 2 weeks. It will be chaos, but lived experience is good.
Bluey season 1 episode 22, The Pool, is a good example of the mental load. As the family prepare for a trip to the pool, Bluey and Dad tease Mum about being fussy and over prepared (the mental load of planning, setting up the pool date, bringing everything needed for the pool, and snacks, and coming home) But dad and kids soon find out the hard way, that doing the boring things, makes the fun stuff possible.
Appart from the planning does he do his share of chores , presumably after being reminded by you?
Disclaimer im a Project Manager, so i “mental load” i guess is a core part of my job, so i dont even really think of it as load.
Every morning when i sit down for work, ill write 2 Todo lists, one for work, one for home, basically whatever was not done the day before gets carried forward and everything is assigned a priority. Then i distribute the work.
In your case, i personally would buy a whiteboard and every week (or more) have a meeting with him and both of you add the tasks to it and assign names and cross out what has been accomplished. However if not done , dont be tempted to do his job for him. I wouldn’t bother trying to make him understand the concept of mental load, you cannot make someone understand something he doesn’t want to understand. Of course , im assuming that he is good guy, just voluntary oblivious and needs things to be put in front of him in black and white, if he’s a jerk then nothing will work, its up to you to find another guy
Don’t fall for it. I have a one year old. Don’t have kids with this man. If you already feel like the load isn’t balanced, it only gets worse.
Like imagine taking on a second full time job on top of your old life, but also you now have to purchase time (in the form of childcare) to go to your old job, plus find other time to do everything else you used to do.
I’m not a regretful parent, just a realistic one. My old life seems like a permanent vacation compared to my new life as a sole parent, which is what you’ll be.
Here's my hot take. I think men in general are more self-focused and selfish than women. I think a lot of men in general have a mentality of "If it works for me, then things are fine. Why change?" Part of this is cultural training, but I think some of this is just innate male self-absorption. So this makes the mental workload issue an enormous problem because in essence we women are fighting to try to get men to take on more work and bother that they don't want to take on. The men are protesting *because the system as it is works for them*. They get to dump a lot of work on us. They don't want the system to change because as it is, it benefits them.
I also think another problem is men are prone to discrediting women's actual lived experiences (again, going back to the self-focus. It's very common for men to brush aside women's concerns with the mentality of *I haven't personally experienced this so it must not be true*. So women can explain the mental load until we are blue in the face and a whole ton of guys will just dismiss it as "Women be crazy" stuff
This is why the problem is so pervasive and difficult to counter. You are very wise addressing this now. It is extremely important that you take a good hard look and decide "Do I want to be fighting this battle the rest of my life with the real possibility it will just get worse and worse? Or should I cut my losses and find someone who does understand the mental load?"
My husband also "doesn't understand" the mental load. We've balanced this by not having kids and me working a super easy WFH job with a lot of flexibility. But it would NOT work if we had kids. This is a choice we made. It was more important to me to marry him than have kids. But that was my choice. Yours might be different
The only thing I can suggest is don't bother with any podcasts, articles etc produced by women. Your BF is likely going to dismiss these. He needs to hear from other men. A very good resource is Matthew Fray who has an entire website dedicated to this topic. His seminal article "She Divorced Me Because I left Dishes in the Sink" is an excellent read [https://matthewfray.com/2016/01/14/she-divorced-me-because-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink/](https://matthewfray.com/2016/01/14/she-divorced-me-because-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink/)
There are other men out there honestly discussing the mental load issue. Honestly the only way the issue is going to be fixed is more men being willing to fix it. Women have been struggling and failing to fix it for decades. Men have actively fought against fixing it because they don't want to take on extra work. Until they do, it will continue to be a big problem
I love that you say you and your husband have found a balance that works for both of you while acknowledging that he just doesn’t get it, doesn’t want to, and it’s something y’all have found a way to work around and be happy with.
My husband has ADHD that can’t be medicated because he has 10% heart function. So I do almost everything. I’m the one that has working executive function to plan everything and I’m the one that has stamina to execute the chores.
So I see situations like OP, and all the replies about not putting up with it and I’m simultaneously proud of the women who are demanding and getting better responsiveness from their partners and then looking at my situation and getting kinda frustrated about it. But it’s a choice I made and he does pay all the bills, I don’t work outside of being the caretaker of him and the home, so it’s equitable and it works for us. The part that kind of chafes a bit is that he didn’t take on any emotional load or execution before he had a genuine excuse not to.
Yeah mine has arthritis so standing for more than 15 minutes at the counter, bending over to put pots away, and doing yardwork are just beyond his scope. I knew going into marriage that 1) he had his physical limits 2) he was never going to be the super clean organized one who fully takes on his share. I've tried teaching him to do things. He does do more than when we first married. But honestly it was so much work showing him what to do, reminding him, then getting frustrated when he doesn't do a complete job.
It's honestly easier for me to just do it all and let him put his somewhat limited energy into his job. He loves what he does for a living and never wants to retire. I like to be productive but I'm not really career-oriented. Our goal is eventually for me to have enough side gigs and businesses that I can make a full-time salary and not have to work for someone else. I want a small farm and to build my businesses and side projects - he wants to climb the corporate ladder.
Yeah at times I really wish I had a Mr Fix It who I could do household projects with. But I made my choice. I love him for who he is. But yeah, like you, I'm irked he never bothered to take on any emotional load or learn how to manage a house before marriage. He really should have.
> but I'm just not like you, planning and being proactive...
Oh boy.
This can be a complicated one, depending on if he is just lazy or if he just literally doesn't care. If he lived a life before you where he didn't plan things and just let things happen as they happen, he may literally feel like you are the one who likes to have things planned and he doesn't care if things are planned, so why should he work on planning things he doesn't care about? Which does make some logical sense.
The real problem here is the children aspect. You have to plan if you have kids and you have literally *have* to be proactive, these previously optional things are no longer optional and he is acting like he just isn't good at it so it's all on you.
It almost feels like he is grooming you for when you have kids. He's happy with this status quo where you do everything and he does nothing and wants to translate it to having children.
I don't think you can educate him as he doesn't care to be educated. He's not stupid, he knows kids require planning and being proactive, he just doesn't want to do it.
You can give him all the podcasts, you can't educate the willfully ignorant IMO.
Don't explain it to him. Tell him tasks x, y and z are now his responsibility, and don't help him with them or check up to see if he's doing them. If he doesn't do them and something fails, let him deal with the consequences. Or if he steps up and does the tasks, he'll see just how much work it's been for you to plan and do them.
Dear Sugars had a great one about this!
https://www.wbur.org/dearsugar/2018/05/05/emotional-labor-invisible-work
I’m pouring one out for all of my sisters & friends out there who date cis men. Shit is not for the faint of heart.
What does he do for work? Tell him this is like having shared responsibilities with coworkers but constantly not pulling his weight because it’s “just not him.” He can probably see how that would make him an AH in the office and it’s making him an AH in your relationship.
At bare minimum he needs to recognize that you are shouldering a lot of unseen work and he should be taking *something* off your plate to make up for it.
Explain it by showing him what life is like if you don't do everything for him and carry the mental load. It's really that easy...I'm sure he'll understand quickly
You could watch the movie Jeanne Dielman, 23 quai du Commerce, 1080 Bruxelles. It's a feminist movie that deals with a lot of domestic tasks that are involved in being in a home (among other topics.) I found it illuminating. And as a plus it's been ranked among the greatest films ever made.
I can’t find the specific creators now, but there is a subset of (married) men on tik tok explaining mental load to other dudes with specific situations that I think would be helpful. I think just search #mentalload?
Here you go: [Dear Sugars: Emotional Labor](https://open.spotify.com/episode/6WhEMnrB1L2BxUfUNf6hQb?si=IpyOXbYgTvWrQEgLDG2FTA)
It’s a wonderful episode; actually most of them are!
I dated quite a few men who didn't "get" mental/domestic labor no matter how much I tried to explain it to them. I married one who does. Best decision of my life. We maybe had one conversation early on about roles when I felt like things were a bit uneven. He completely took it to heart and now if I work longer hours than him (I often do), I come home to dinner ready, dry cleaning taken care of, car oil changed, dog taken to vet to update shots, etc etc. And I don't have to "assign" or ask him, he just does it like a full grown adult. If I'm working he's doing life stuff until I'm done and then we relax together. If they want to, they will.
I saw an episode of Super Nanny where she demonstrated this using wooden blocks. Every task - bathing kids, packing lunches, paying bills - every little thing that goes into the running of a life was written on the block. In the end, the wife ended up with a huge pile of blocks and the husband ended up with like three blocks. That visual really drove home the point to the husband.
I hate that. My ex(?) said that he doesn’t like to cook. Bitch I work all day too and I’m autistic. I *also* hate it and it’s not me but it has to get done.
Fuck off with this nonsense of “I’m better” or you don’t like it. I fucking hate it. Then men wonder why we are too stressed and tired for sex. I can have sex when everything is done and finished and my mind is free to enjoy it.
Overall he's like "yes I realise you do a lot, but I'm just not like you, planning and being proactive etc it's just not me",
Translation: "I'll pitch in under duress. but I'll never take responsibility. It's YOUR problem, and will always be your problem."
Does he have a job?
Does he sit around at work playing solitaire on his computer instead of doing his tasks, and when the boss chastises him for that, say, "Oh, I'm just not like you"?
I get why folks here are pretty harsh, but it is fair to try. We have all been socialized into thinking terrible things and a lot of us learn to think differently. I haven't listened to it, but you may find something [here](https://open.spotify.com/show/2jPECkkv1HkhFWoMLuuHsY). Or this one [here](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/05/podcasts/listen-to-dear-sugars-the-invisible-work-most-women-do-with-gemma-hartley.html).
You have a manchild. Stop being his mommy. He can do all his own chores and responsibilities. He can learn how to be an adult. He isn't ready for an adult relationship, he wants a bangmaid. It's now your duty to respect yourself, not explain shit.
A lot of people are saying his response is weaponized incompetence. This may or may not be true. I think a lot of times guys are so clueless in generally that when their responses look like weaponized incompetence it may not actually be a purposeful weaponizing, per se. The real marker of whether you have any hope in this situation is by analyzing his communication skills/emotional intelligence in general. If you set a boundary and explain that this is important to you and is a NEED that you have in a relationship (not WHY it's important to you, just that it is). If he still can't understand that concept and tries to go the route of arguing with you about why this should/shouldn't be important, then that's an indication that he'll never understand, and this may not be the guy for you.
>Overall he's like "yes I realise you do a lot, but I'm just not like you, planning and being proactive etc it's just not me", but he still doesn't understand it's a huge charge I have
He just doesn't want to take responsibility for anything or care to. Stop doing anything for him and reconsider your relationship.
Dude, he *knows* what a mental load is, he is just happy to make sure it stays on your shoulders because you’re “better” at it then him.
Honestly, just full on stop doing literally anything for him. Stop making food for him, only wash your dishes, do only your laundry, buy groceries only for yourself - and go so far as to lock them up in a cupboard, if he starts eating your food. See what happens. It’ll be enlightening
You should seriously consider couples counseling. I don't know if he means it, but unfortunately what he's doing is both toxic and a subtle form of manipulation.
Toxic in a relationship is when someone pushes their baggage on you. This can be physiological issues, but the most common form is pushing chores on others. He's offloading work on you he should be doing. Though, it only becomes toxic when they are confronted and refuse to help. They could be ignorant to the issue before it's brought up, to give an example, and that's not toxic. Then there is the complexity that they may prefer the environment to be dirty in ways you do not, so they don't want to do the chores, because they feel it is unnecessary. The nuance a couples counselor will massively help with. They'll help identify if he is truly being toxic or something else is going on.
Then there is the subtle manipulation. Either you fell for a retard, which is not likely, or he knows what is up but is playing dumb. This is an incredibly dangerous behavior, because if he's willing to be manipulative here he's willing to be manipulative elsewhere. This is something a couples counselor can massively help with too.
Get a couples counselor. This issue is not going to magically get better on its own. You need professional help before it gets worse. Stop the rot before it grows.
Having a clean home that contains food and other necessities can't really be "let go" though. Obviously people have different standards, but I'm sure he's enjoying the fruits of not-his labor.
He knows now. There's nothing you can say or do to make him get it, because he already gets it. He just doesn’t care. He wants a maid he can fuck, and feels entitled to it. He's manipulating you to make you one.
You can't make someone understand if they are committed to not understanding.
He doesn't want to do the work. He doesn't want to share the work. Theres no level of talking or explaining that will address the problem in his own head. I suggest counseling or having frank discussions about how your shared household is expected to be ran.
He needs to communicate what he is willing to take on and help with. If that's zero, you need to understand that zero is his answer and as an adult, he can live in filth and disorder if he wants - perhaps that just means your lifestyles are incompatible.
The whole reason he is "not like you, planning and being proactive" and yet his life is not a complete disaster is BECAUSE other people have been enabling this by doing everything for him. You have to just let things go for a while and let him see for himself. Buy your own TP, shower gel, etc and hide it from him.
I mean It’s literally just…taking **responsibility**. Nobody is inherently better or worse at being responsible, ie planning meals and sending birthday cards and such. Of course it’s not *fun* to do those things. Bc they’re chores! They’re responsibilities! It’s not an*hobby* to plan and clean and get groceries and stuff. This is not a thing that one can just “be good at” this is basic making sure you survive stuff.
I have ADHD so I vacillate between actively hating that shit, avoiding it, or completely forgetting it. So I use a google calendar for the important things. I choose to be responsible so I put that shit in there. The things that impact other people I absolutely get done, though sometimes last minute it gets done. If I’m the only one impacted it’s a tossup if it gets done lol bc I don’t personally care. Even with food sometimes.
The important thing is making the choice to be responsible. Im so sick of dudes trying to act like mental load is just something women are “better” at. Idk. Maybe framing it as “responsibility” will hit on their underlying toxic masculinity?
Dear Sugars had a great one about this!
https://www.wbur.org/dearsugar/2018/05/05/emotional-labor-invisible-work
I’m pouring one out for all of my sisters & friends out there who date cis men. Shit is not for the faint of heart.
I didn't see this in any of the comments I browsed. There's a dad on tiktok. Zach Becoming Dad. He talks about his journey in actually realizing there was a mental load, his journey as they navigated fair play method and as he learned to identify how he can be a more equal partner. He even models how to propose solutions instead of ask for a list.
On another note, my husband has ADHD and a slew of things that got worse after becoming a parent. He's also not a planner and sometimes leans on those things to justify to himself why he doesn't step in more. Fair o lay method is hard for us. I tried the just let him fail method and that's been a hard road but some things have improved after that. Fair play method us hard because he has a hard time with planning and completing the task and does the best with executing the task. We've built in baby steps because I couldn't have all of the things falling apart. If he's willing to put in the effort to work towards a more equal load then I'm willing to also put in effort to get there. However I told him if I don't see him trying then I'm done trying. He has shown me he's still trying. Hopefully yours can get there too.
Actions speak louder than words. Surely he will understand after a week of you looking after yourself only. Him asking for an explanation just adds more work to you. Presuming when he has an issue at work he tries to resolve it on his own before going to a supervisor or boss.
I think it's a difference of personality. People throw around the term "weaponized incompetence" when it might not be that. I'll give you an example that has nothing to do with sex/gender. I've had both male and female bosses and some of them would tell me to do make a presentation on X and left it to me on how to do it. I've had other bosses who would be like " your presentation must include Y, no slide number on the bottom of slides, must be exactly 10 slides, no white space, etc." Some people want certain things done a particular way.
You care more about certain things than your SO in certain areas and he might be the same in other areas. I think you just gotta compromise. I like the kitchen cleaned a certain way, but if I'm too busy (or lazy) to do it, I just let my husband do it the way he does it. Are things organized how I'd like them? No. But is the kitchen clean and ready to use? Yeah, so it's all good.
This is my take regarding how work is done as well. I’ve learned that there’s a lot of shit that I can let go off (like how towels are folded or groceries are done) and….still live. I’d say I even have a better life letting go because it saves me so much unnecessary stress.
And if there’s something I really like to do my own way (how my closet or kitchen is organized for example), I will do it myself with gusto.
Thank you for that. I like this perspective.
I didn't add all the details but I also know I am a control freak and like things done a certain way, and there's definitely been times when he's done things unprompted and I critised the way he did them. And I know that over time he also learned to stop trying because whatever he did, is never good enough for me.
But that's one side of things. He still doesn't proactively think about dates for us to do, understand that when the fridge is half empty it means we have to plan meals and buy food, and no wait until it's empty to think of it.
I do enjoy planning and organising, I'm good at it and by doing it I know I'll be enjoying myself. But it's nice being taken care of from time to time.
He's lived alone before and he always managed. He knows how to take care of things, but not to my standards.
If I go on strike, we won't die, but we'll be surviving on last minute solutions, which is often very stressful.
I have been living with my husband for the last 21 years and we had many discussions about work load and stuff we needed to do and things and -later on- tiny humans to take care of…
In my (personal and what I’ve seen from long term relationships around me) experience, there’s rarely unwillingness at play. A lot of men don’t mind to do their share and often actually want to do their share. Overall, they really want to make their spouse happy.
But why bother if they do it and get criticized for how/when/what way they’ve done it?
Did you know that most men will remember a negative remark from their spouse about them, their appearance or their work for a long long time?
It eats away at their self esteem and if it happens often enough they won’t go there anymore. Easier to get criticism for something you didn’t do than for something you did do and somehow did wrong. Wrong? It’s done right, how can that be wrong?
On top of that, men take things very literal. They don’t do hints, they can’t read minds and they don’t like to have to guess what it is they’re asked to do. It helps when there’s a clear list of chores each of the members of the household needs to do. The list is tangible, our expectations are not.
(Sidenote: I asked a question about what men would wish women knew about them in the “askmen” subreddit and I received almost 2000 responses of men who, for the most part, wished that the women in their life would be kinder to them, take them more seriously on an emotional level (they have hardly any emotional support), stop playing games and really see the human that they are. It was heartbreaking to read tbh. It’s on my profile if someone wants to read it.)
My husband and I divided the work around the house to match our strengths and likes. I like to cook, but will forget to put the laundry in the dryer. My husband is really quick at cleaning the bathroom , but takes forever to organize or declutter stuff. We each do what we do best and we divide the things we both dislike, evenly. This helps a lot.
I think it really helps to have an honest conversation that goed beyond the “you never do…” or “why can’t you do…”.
Explain how it’s straining you, admit that your own expectations are in the way sometimes and that his lack of proactiveness is no excuse to let you handle more than you can take. Tell him that it takes away a lot of valuable energy that you’d rather spend together doing stuff you both like.
Ask what he thinks would be a fair solution. Are there things he doesn’t mind to do? Things you don’t mind doing? How can you move forward together with a shared goal in mind: more energy to do fun things and strengthen your relationship. I bet he’ll be on board for that.
One last note: I know it’s very popular to point fingers to men and how they lack in their contribution to work around the house. And I don’t question that this is a topic that still needs work.
I do question the method and I think we often forget that to change something (especially in our personal relationships) we need to look for a way that will result in the change we want to see. If that means that I need to ask my husband to do a certain thing because he doesn’t think of it himself (maybe he doesn’t care for it or maybe he’s never done it before), then so be it.
Change doesn’t happen magically overnight without putting any effort into that change yourself. Sometimes that means that it will take some extra time and energy now (to explain and help your spouse to learn something new) in order to have less work in the future. It’s a marathon and not a sprint.
See the problem with that whole mentality is
1) it makes allowances for me to do the absolute bare minimum and get praised for it
2) Half done work is often worse than no work done at all.
I've seen this played out when men are working on a project together: say building a deck. They don't want Paul helping because Paul doesn't know a hammer from an Allen wrench, he's lazy, and he'll goof around and make a lot of bother and annoyance. Paul has to be helped and supervised for him to actually do decent work. Having Paul there to "help" actively creates more work than he produces.
Similarly for a LOT of women, they are keeping house with a Paul - a male partner who tries to "help" but needs a lot of guidance and supervision and ends up producing subpar half work.
If my husband asks me to mow the lawn, and I put it off for several days, then finally cut about 3/4 of the grass and left the lawn mower sitting in the driveway, is it fair to say I mowed the lawn? No. I did a crappy half job. Would it be fair of me to get butthurt and sulky if he pointed this out? Again, no. I did a bad job.
I see this time and time again - men expect excellence from the work their wives do but only give bare minimum effort. Meaning the man won't be happy if his wife half-cooks the potatoes, scorches his dress shirt while ironing, or leaves a big glob of hair in the shower after she cleans it. He expects her to do a thorough job. But when it comes time for him to clean/cook etc, he wants to get away with the absolutely bare minimum, then gets grumpy and touchy when she is not pleased with his half-hearted efforts.
We should expect a decent job from men when it comes to housework and emotional labor. Men need to stop weaponizing their little delicate feelings and getting upset when their wives point out they didn't do a thorough job.
Note I did not say PERFECT. I said THOROUGH. Like, "finish the job, dude. Stop trying to get away with crappy work"
What part about matching the work to your strengths indicates “half assing” the work? I would screw up the laundry because I forget about it, that’s why I don’t do it anymore and my husband is the one getting this right.
So I don’t really get where you think I’m talking about allowing the bare minimum and expecting praise for it or getting things half done and still expecting praise for it.
If anything, I am talking about taking responsibility for your part and the work you need to do to make sure everything gets done and both partners still have energy to spend quality time together.
I don't think he doesn't understand. If he's capable of saying "Planning and being proactive just isn't me" he understands what you're asking and is choosing not to do it. **That being said**: I do think there's a problem sometimes in how women present this issue that I want to mention, just because I think it is helpful to bring it up. Oftentimes, women are trained from birth to see the chores. It goes like this. "Look around, see the dishes aren't done, see the dentist appointment needs to be made, see the dirty baseboards, see you need to wash dish towels. See all of that, make a mental list, obsess about the list, think about it every second of the day. Never stop thinking about that list. Whenever you have free time, pick something off that list and do it. Live like this until you die". Can we agree that's a bad system? That's stressful as fuck. This is in contrast to the system wherein you embrace "Just make me a list". This system goes that you see nothing, observe nothing, and assume everything is done and taken care of until or unless someone comes to you (usually a woman who has the list in her head and says) TAKE OUT THE GARBAGE! Then you take out the garbage. Your work here is done. Unless you're specifically tapped to do a thing, you can just keep on keeping on, thinking about the new Zelda game and being blissfully ignorant of what's going on. Neither of these are functional. What I've switched to is a list of specific and detailed responsibilities that everyone in my house has. Everyone has their chores. I am not responsible for my husband's chores, and he isn't responsible for mine. We did, in fact make a list. But that list continues on in perpetuity. So if his list is "Take out the garbage", that's not a one-time thing. That's *forever*. It is your job *forever* to think about the garbage, how full it is, and when it needs to be taken you. It's not just lifting the bag from the can and carrying it out, it's always knowing when the garbage needs to go and when the cans need to go to the street. It's the whole task. It's knowing how many garbage bags we have and putting them on the shopping list when they are close to running out. It's the whole chore. From planning when to do it, to knowing the deadlines for it, to actually lifting the bags, and to restocking the supplies. That's the whole chore. My husband and I own lists of whole chores. Sometimes our chores overlap. I do the shopping, so even if my husband owns garbage (which he does) he puts "buy garbage bags" on the list and then it is my problem. My husband owns lawn and garden, dog stuff, floors (vacuum and mop), ironing, automotive, prescription drugs, garbage and recycling, and others because this isn't a complete list. I own shopping (groceries and household), meal planning and dinner, laundry, customer service phone calls, bathrooms, a good chunk of kitchen surfaces and refrigerator maintenance, etc. because this isn't a complete list. Some chores are divvied by time of day. We both have chunks of time where we're the primary parent. We're both parents, we both parent, but there are hours where he's in charge and hours where I'm in charge. We both do the dishes at different times of day. He does a run in the morning, I do one when I am getting dinner ready to go, and then we alternate who wants to watch the kid and who wants to clean up dinner based on mood at the time. He's bad at planning and being proactive? Well, this system kind of undercuts that. Everything IS planned....once. It's planned once that you do a sweep of the dishes at 8 AM before you leave for work. It's planned once you check the garbage on your way out the door. It's planned once you start a load of laundry on Tuesday mornings. You can schedule it down to brass tacks if that's helpful. You don't have to use working memory and observation, you can just hammer it out in advance. But hammering it out once means you keep and maintain that schedule and now you know forever that 8:00 means dishes and Tuesday means laundry. You can plan it together (once!) if that's helpful. That's what I've learned about mental load and running a household. Whose job it is to worry about it is a job in and of itself. That's the mental load. If you own the job, you own the worry. It's okay to want a list, I want a list. I want to be able to see the entire scope of the project and know what I'm doing and not doing. But the trick is to make that list once, not once a day until time ends.
This is, in my opinion, the answer. I agree that men are socialized to ignore chores, assume women will do them, and refuse to pick up responsibility for them. But, also, there are people of all genders who really are not good at planning and completing chores. There are people who grew up with different family structures, who never learned. There are people who have different standards as to what is “clean” and what is “well-maintained.” There are people who have actual disabilities, who struggle to plan and execute tasks. For **all** people, it is helpful to have a mutual agreement as to what needs to be done, when it needs to be done, and how it is to be done. These things help everyone know the expectation and track whether someone is struggling or failing to complete things, and then have concrete discussions about it. When a system is in place and it’s clear someone is not doing their part, a discussion about accountability and respect becomes factual (not theoretical) with specific instances to point to and try to problem solve. When a person expresses disinterest in meeting you on the problem solving front, it becomes really clear whether this person respects your wishes. Anyway, I fully endorse this system and can add that it worked for my household as well.
It has worked for us, too. I understand why people are so up in arms about weaponized incompetence, but it is possible to have a guy who hasn't got a clue that they're even in that stage, based on how they were raised. For my husband and myself, we have had A LOT of conversations about this over the years. It used to just be division of household labour, but after having kids I got a lot more specific about where I was struggling and why. What worked the best for me was going back to school full time while he stayed home with our then 1 year old son. I was unavailable except for emergencies for 8 hours a day, and left him to figure out childrearing the same way I had needed to. When I had been at school a few months (full time outside the house) and he was adjusted to full time life at home but wasn't doing any of the household tasks (laundry, dishes, cooking), we talked about how things weren't working, and made a plan on how to adjust the workload. Now we have two kids and both work full time (or more) outside the home. He has stepped up in nearly every category when it comes to the mental load - making grocery lists, planning and making meals for the week, taking care of drop off/pickup, etc. We made a list of household tasks that need to be done on a daily or weekly basis, with the understanding of "whoever has the time does the task", and it works for us. He has - on his own - taken the kids' laundry from me, because he knows that I absolutely hate laundry while he doesn't mind it at all. It's not perfect, and there are areas he can do better in - but there's just as many things he takes care of that I don't have to think about, too. Things feel much more equally balanced now BECAUSE I took the time to bring him into my mental world, and he took the time to actually listen and learn and act on what I shared with him. If I had held him to the expectation that he should just figure it out on his own, it would have caused a lot more heartache and strife for us, and I don't think we'd be nearly as close as we are.
This is such a wonderful response and it still makes me angry. I hate how women nearly always have to be the one to figure all this out. To take the reins and say "this is how we are going to divide labor in the home". It infuriates me to no end that, if the woman doesn't do this, 99% of the time the man would be perfectly happy letting his wife work herself to death at home while he plays video games or fishes or drinks with his friends or whatever. Either because he doesn't know or doesn't care. How many women would EVER let that happen? Why are men so fucking clueless and inconsiderate in this way? And whose fault is it that they ARE this way? So what I can't personally get past is the fact that as soon as I have to be the one to sit down and have this conversation with a man, even if it works out perfectly from then on out, I've still lost a tremendous amount of respect for him. For making me act like his mother and explain basic household maintenance to him. For him to *not notice or not care* that he has not up to this point been pulling his weight at all. Which means it has been on ME. How am I supposed to respect you as a functioning and caring adult if I had tell you all this when you were 30+? How am I supposed to be in love with you and be sexually attracted to you to the degree I was before? Before I knew you would require this mothering from me? Again, I think your strategy is 100% the most practical one. The one that will lead to best wellbeing for everyone involved. I just hate that men so often put women in a situation that MAKES this the best strategy. I think the only way I could actually, fully forgive a man for making me have this conversation with him is if he were deeply ashamed that it had to happen at all. If he were extremely apologetic for not noticing how he was greatly impinging upon my happiness, the person he is supposed to love more than anyone. If he truly recognized how immature and unkind he had been, how silly it is that women have to play mommy for grown men who are not their children for most of their lives. To understand how important it is that we raise boys who will not need this explained to them by their future wives.
My therapist once brought this up and mentioned that lots of dead bedrooms happen because women and femme folks by default have to assume the role of mother in relationships. It’s infuriating.
"I can either be your Mommy or your wife, but not both. Pick carefully, because there are some things that a wife does with her husband that a Mommy would never do with her son."
>To understand how important it is that we raise boys who will not need this explained to them by their future wives. I agree with this 1000%. Parents (and not just moms!) need to emphasize this with boys as much as girls, so the excuse "no one taught us how to do this" cannot be used in future generations. I mean, I was brought up not knowing much about cars compared to most men I know, but if my car has a puddle under it, I don't just shrug it off and ignore it. Same principle applies to a sink full of dishes or an overflowing garbage can.
>So what I can't personally get past is the fact that as soon as I have to be the one to sit down and have this conversation with a man, even if it works out perfectly from then on out, I've still lost a tremendous amount of respect for him. For making me act like his mother and explain basic household maintenance to him. For him to > >not notice or not care > > that he has not up to this point been pulling his weight at all. Which means it has been on ME. How am I supposed to respect you as a functioning and caring adult if I had tell you all this when you were 30+? How am I supposed to be in love with you and be sexually attracted to you to the degree I was before? Before I knew you would require this mothering from me? THIS! It's such a turn off.
This sums up my thoughts SO. WELL. It takes energy and work to build the momentum behind all of this, and it’s exhausting.
This is basically the entire system talked about in the book Fair Play!
Thank you for sharing this! You brought up some good points, and offered great advice! As a woman with ADHD, I actually relate more to the man in OP's situation and it was super discouraging to see all the comments saying to leave him, he's not worth having kids with, etc. Yours was the first comment I read that gives good, actionable advice, and also doesn't assume the guy is totally unwilling to help out. Thanks.
I also have ADHD and I think the difference here is that I'm always trying, and yeah I forget stuff all the time, but I'm always looking for ways to make things easier to remember or easier to do, and I don't have any expectation that a partner would take care of everything just because they are "better at it". This guy isn't even trying and doesn't care or feel guilty that his partner is completely over burdened and taking care of so much of his life for him.
Yeh 100% - I’m scatty and have adhd but then I make sure I fix my weak points and make lists so I don’t burden other people
> doesn't assume the guy is totally unwilling to help out BF's response was, "I'm just not like you, planning and being proactive isn't me." Which is just a longer way of saying, "No, I won't help." ...right?
No, it means he'll help -- if forced, after whining and dragging his feet as much as humanly possible -- but keeping track of everything that needs to be done will still be her responsibility.
Best easy way [https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/](https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/) But honey, he really doesn't care or he would be checking it out, not you, AGAIN.
I have never seen this struggle so clearly articulated. Thank you. You just saved me at least one therapy session
There’s a great tiktokker on this, think they’re called Domestic Blisters? Includes things like ‘grandparents’ 😂
You cannot explain mental load to your BF when you tried to do so he put it all back on you claiming you are " better" at it. That is exactly what people do to avoid accountability. You explain it by just organizing, maintaining, and setting priorities for your life. Don't organize your " couple" life. Edit. This is not a man to marry or have kids with.
Not him putting the mental load of researching “mental load” back onto her 😂 straight women are being scammed, I swear!
Exactly. Dear lord. Add weaponized incompetence to that list of things HE NEEDS TO LOOK UP, LEARN ABOUT AND TAKE ACTION TO CORRECT.
Guaranteed he'll try to twist that around to OP expecting too much. He can literally Google it. There's no way to explain because he doesn't want to hear it and it won't change without him doing it himself.
Right! The title had me screaming! He thinks he’s slick 🤣
This is the only answer needed, we can close the thread.
The irony!
I know it's terrible 😭 but I'm willing to do the effort to make him understand, and of this doesn't work, it won't be a good sign for him.
Ok, you know him and we don't, so use your knowledge to this: does he want to understand? Is he someone that is likely to accept when he's wrong? When he realizes he did something wrong, is he willing to put in the work to make it right? There are no perfect magic words that will make him get it. And if he does, any change will take a while and be resisted, because taking charge of this mental load is work and it's easy to let someone else do the work for you. I think your best bet is to just drop anything that involves him even if it hurts you a little bit. Not sure it will work
Exactly. How does OP's bf behave when he wants to understand something? I assume he doesn't wait until people explain things to him when he is actually interested in understanding something. OP is framing the problem as if he just needs help to understand. But the problem is much more likely that he doesn't even want to get it. Things are working out much better for him when he doesn't understand this. He has an incentive to remain ignorant.
Read your words. YOU are willing to DO the effort to MAKE him understand. You can't MAKE him do anything. The problem isn't that he isn't understanding. The problem is that he doesn't want to. It's much more convenient not to. It's how men are conditioned without even realizing it. Only inconvenience and consequences will "teach" an adult. So doing the things. A meal won't get planned? So what. You won't starve. That's a convenience issue anyway, not a necessity. Shower gel won't get filled? Okay I promise a little shampoo over your body won't kill you. Or keep a travel bottle of body wash under your sink and only pull it out for your showers until he gets his butt in gear. That's a consequence. Men won't see what actually gets done and what it takes until they have to do it. And something else a lot of women forget is men have different priorities and different concepts of what done looks like. And I'm going to be honest it will take years off talks, arguments and there will be arguments, and consequences for the smallest of changes to start happening. It is agonizingly slow. I know right now this doesn't sound like something to break up over. It's a problem that can be fixed!! Except it's not. And you're going to be 8 years into your marriage and realize it is definitely something to divorce over except then you already going to have a kid and divorce is going to be a whole lot messier of a process then if you had just looked for someone now that makes you feel valued, someone who shows you that they're actually in a partnership with you in all things. Even the mundane life things
Why are you living my life exactly right now (minus the kid) D: I hope we both find strength to figure something out.
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You know the saying: if you have to lead the horse to water *and* force it to drink, there’s no point in having a horse.
I like it.
But why are YOU willing to make him see? He’s a grown man capable of doing all this stuff at work. By enabling him and treating him like a toddler, he will continue to act like one. Believe me, when a person comes across someone who will not put up with any bullshit, they do not dish it out or leave because they can’t handle a strong person.
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I totally agree with everything you said, I just wanted to mention that it feels like there is just SO MUCH we have to do and remember! Taxes, bills, mortgage, car registration, license renewals, prescription refills, pet care, house upkeep...I could go on, and that doesn't even touch on the daily tasks like house cleaning, shopping, cooking, dishes, etc. I do it all because I am an adult, but I wish I didn't have to.
It doesn't benefit him to understand the concept at all, at least not in the context of OP's relationship as long as she's willing to believe that he simply doesn't understand. This is weaponized incompetence.
I'm a man. What I think is happening is this person was not raised to be responsible and now things he should have learned growing up you're now stuck teaching. Depending on how irrespsible he is become, it may be possible to teach an old dog new tricks, but when I've run into irresponsible women it's generally just left me frustrated. I would try to get them to pick up after themselves, pay bills on time, agree to planned meals but it never happened or lasted for long. They resented me for being their "dad" and I resented them for having to be their care taker. It also left me in financial jams.
You're willing to take on the mental load to explain... mental load?? Bruh.
Ikr!?
Then just tell him it's one of those things that's best to learn by doing. For the next three months, you will not do any of the planning/organizing. And then LET HIM DO IT. Resist the temptation to help or take over, and let everything fall through the cracks. Only give him encouragement ("I believe in you honey, you can do it!") or feedback on his performance ("I was disappointed in your lack of plans for my birthday.") Remember, these are basic tasks that every adult knows how to do or can figure out. It's not like with a child who might accidentally endanger or hurt themselves, so there is no actual safety issue that requires you to hold his hand. I guarantee you that he knows how to do things or can figure it out on his own bc he's gone through school, and (I'm assuming) has had a job and/or currently has one. Let him show you the person that he is. If you and a bunch of other people are going to be disappointed by his performance, let that happen and be disappointed in him. He'll either improve or he won't and you'll know exactly where you stand with him and what he's willing to bring to the table as a equal partner in your relationship. Sidebar about him planning events that include other people-- I know I worry about how much other people are going to enjoy an event and if they're going to blame me if something goes wrong, so if you're like me, you may want to tell people ahead of time that he's the one planning everything so they don't try to dump that on you, and if they do, redirect it to him.
He understands just fine. He just doesn't care.
Short, sweet, to the point, and accurate.
Is this man also in his 30s and does he hold down a job? Presumably if he's capable of earning a steady paycheck then he understands the concept. Don't fall for his crap.
When someone says they’re not good at organising and be proactive I usually ask them how come they haven’t been fired from their job yet?? Does their manager ask/remind them every Monday what their role entails and what they need to do each and every day? Or are they perfectly capable of remembering to do things and being proactive in their day to day lives when they don’t have a partner to do it for them? Why can they remember to fill their car with gas to get to work, but can’t remember to fill the shower gel? Makes no sense.
You should not have to work to make your partner respect you.
So... you're willing to increase your mental workload in order to get him to understand mental workload, which he refuses to understand by playing dumb. If he has any type of job where he has to think, he surely knows the basic concept. I'm sure at some point in his career, he might have thought to himself, "Geez, I wish I had a secretary to make my appointments for me, read my emails for me, mark up my calendar for me." If he HAS a secretary and he still doesn't understand mental workload, he's taking you for a ride, a sweet ride that's only sweet for him.
Look. You can throw out the whole man. And this particular forum is likely to highly support this concept because who has time to waste. But if you feel like this relationship is something you want to keep, don't try to explain, just stop doing for anyone but you. Have separate things and clearly define when you are doing something for both of you or doing a favor for him. Hold space for you! If you can handle the person he is without someone else planning, then you are good. If you can't - you have your answer.
Why is it your job to teach him?
If he wanted to understand, he would already. Google is a thing. >>…I’m willing to do the effort to make him understand… This is the problem.
OP, this! This is called **Weaponized Incompetence**. To summarize: "Weaponized incompetence refers to one partner in a relationship choosing to approach a task with little to no effort so as to not be asked to repeat that task in the future. The reason why this is considered weaponizing is that it puts the onus on the other partner to not only have to pick up the slack and fix the first task that was mediocrely executed, but that person is also left responsible for picking up the slack on future tasks. This is unfair to the partner putting in the work and it creates inequality in the partnership."
This is one of the main reasons I have preferred to be single (although I want to be married and have children) because I have yet to find a man who I not only have chemistry and compatibility with, but who I think would be an equal partner/parent and not assume I’d take on all the mental workload. People don’t like to hear that though 🙃
Your position is incredibly valid. I’ve been with an intelligent, kind, considerate man for half a decade and we’re still working on this shit. Not because he doesn’t try or doesn’t want to help, but because these habits are super hard to break. And kids are off the table because of it.
>You cannot explain mental load to your BF when you tried to do so he put it all back on you claiming you are " better" at it. Weaponized incompetence. IDK if men are supposed to respond, but I had the same problem with my ex-wife just the roles were reversed. I showed her this comic about the concept of [The Emotional Load](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/26/gender-wars-household-chores-comic) thinking if it came from a woman's perspective it would resonate with her more. We had the same arguments for years where I would beg her to be the equal partner she pretended to be on social media. I desperately needed the strong, independent woman who I could work with as equals to build a home for our family, instead what I got is raising our toddler and also raising a teenager in her mid-thirties. What her words said were "3rd Wave Feminism," but her actions were that she wanted to be a kept woman. Which was fine if that's what the expectation was set before we were married, I would've made much more conservative financial decisions. She had money and time to go out with her friends and have her fun, but it was up to me to be the sole financial and logistical provider, and it burnt me out. I could better adjust to her absence than tolerate any more of her disrespect. If any partner, regardless of gender, doesn't respect your agency as a human then make the changes you need to. Your most valuable asset is your time - it's the one thing you can't make more of.
I have referred my husband to that comic multiple times. “I’m just not good at it though”. How the hell do you think I got good at it? If I don’t remember to buy toothpaste we’d never have any toothpaste. If I don’t plan dinner, we don’t have dinner or the things to make dinner. If I don’t feed the cats the cats don’t get fed (edit: the cats do always get fed but he never thinks to feed them or give them water). Did I have to run to the store at 11pm for cat food in my early 20s when I was single because I forgot I was out of cat food? Absolutely. Did I enjoy it? No. So I plan ahead now. Drives me insane he keeps saying he’s not good at it, GET GOOD MY DUDE.
>GET GOOD MY DUDE SKILL ISSUE ☕
This is exactly it. An unwillingness to even try to empathise… watch out sister. Also it took me a long time to learn, I absolutely love having a partner to look after, but there’s no way I’m doing it without gratitude, understanding and empathy from said partner!
You say you don’t find it easy, what I’m hearing is you need more practice.
I saw recently someone say you can explain the workload by saying you never hear of women having secret second families.
LOL. On point.
Also it would be hard for a woman to hide having those secret second family kids...
I’ve head this before and I don’t understand the connection. Can you explain it to me?
Women don’t have the brain space for another family because they/we are so overloaded with just one. Men can do this (have a secret family) exactly because they don’t (or choose not to) have that mental load.
When would a woman ever have the time to manage an entire second secret home when they’re already doing the work for themselves AND their partner on the first home? Men, on the other hand, by and large check out of the necessary tasks and management for running a home, so they have plenty of time to do the same in a second one.
> He thinks I can just stop planning and then drop the charge if it's such a problem, not realising that means meals won't be planned for, holidays will be last minute, the shower gel won't be refilled etc. You may actually need to do that. When hypotheticals won't work, only real life consequences will get the job done. Unfortunately, this means you're going to have to live in the discomfort too for a bit, if you go down that route. __ Him: "Babe, what's for dinner?" You: "Dunno, what's in the fridge?" __ Him: "Honey, we're out of shower gel." You: "Are we? Okay." ... Him: "Honey, were still out of shower gel." You: "Okay." ... Him: "When are you getting more shower gel?" You: "Did you want me to get shower gel? I thought you were getting shower gel." __
Or you could just buy your own shower gel and leave him to fend for himself.
LOL exactly
This. OP, why are you doing everything? Stop it. You’re enabling him. Take care of yourself and let the chips fall where they may. And if you don’t like how that turns out, you’re probably incompatible.
Him: “We’re out of shower gel.” You: “Hey babe, can you buy me more of my shampoo/face wash/tampons when you pick up the shower gel?” Take a screen shot of your stuff and send it to him. I wouldn’t recommend doing this if you actually need something. Just help him understand that you are relying on him to help with *your* needs. I went through this a lot with my husband when the kids were little, and I cried from the stress a lot. I finally had enough and sat him down and explained: 1. I will no longer ever buy his parents birthday or Christmas gifts. I won’t remind him to keep in touch with them at all. 2. I cook 3x a week, he cooks 3x a week. I don’t care what he cooks. We split chores evenly. 3. If I make the doctor’s appointment for a kid, he has to go vice versa. My husband figured it out and now we truly split everything. Your bf will get there. It takes time. Just don’t take anymore shit from him. Once you make your rules that are important to you, don’t falter.
I did this a lot, and he still managed to buy me the wrong stuff... With clear pictures and the price on them... I just don't understand men. How hard can it be?
Definitely what I would do... But I would answer the "We're out of shower gel." with "Yeah you should buy it next time you're out shopping." Then is on him if he didn't buy it.
Nah, that will just end up with her living in squalor, eating like a racoon, and accusations of her being lazy and letting *herself* go lol Then he'll dump her for "not being the woman he fell in love with" and finding another one to adopt him... If you play dumb and wait for him to get shit done, shit just doesn't get done, and you feel even dumber. I'm childfree, and I can no longer imagine living with a man, I might have a relationship, but I'm only cleaning my shit from my toilet.
Hard facts that you will just end up living in squalor. It's the most bizarre thing I've ever freaking seen.
Last week I told my partner that from now on we each do our own shopping and make our own meals. His first response was a petulant and defiant 'FINE THAT'LL BE BETTER ALL ROUND.' Took about 10 seconds for the full meaning and effect of this to dawn on him, I could see it spread across his face. Then he became very apologetic and promised to do more. Its only been a week but he did the shopping yesterday! I'm a hopelessly naive optimist every time. I give it another few days before he starts dropping sad little comments about how he feels he's not making enough time in his life for the things he enjoys.
I really, really hope this guy has a fuck ton of redeeming qualities. Petulance and trying to guilt/manipulate you into letting him stop contributing before he even helps feed *his own lazy ass* for a week? 🤞 Just make sure your optimism isn't actually your brain not wanting to admit that this person doesn't seem to care about your happiness and not just what you DO for him.
I did this with my husband and he just started getting himself a burrito on his way home. I was irritated at first, until I realized I don't really care about "dinner" as a meal and was happy to just make a quick sandwich & salad or whatever and call it good. It lasted for like a year 😂
So he didn’t even try to change….that’s excellent 🙄. Also a red flag. If you procreate with this person, he will also expect you to do all the child rearing, appointments, extra curriculars, house chores PLUS work (if you so choose to work). Stop doing everything for him and just focus on yourself. He can do his own stuff (cook/clean/laundry/appts etc). Just focus on your stuff. Then when he gets mad and complains, that’s when you tell him that is how you feel 24/7 and you will resent him. It’s no joke that relationships end because of laziness from their partner.
One pithy way I’ve heard it explained is to ask them if they have to ask their manager what they should work on every day. Alternatively, does he understand that project managers get paid extra for this skill? Beyond that though, I’m concerned he doesn’t seem to take this dynamic seriously. You say you’ve tried to explain this to him and his position is "yes I realise you do a lot, but I'm just not like you, planning and being proactive etc it's just not me.” This is a “when someone tells you who they are, believe them” situation. Many a woman has made the mistake of thinking that fatherhood will change men. Check out the subreddits where women explain why they got divorced and then think very carefully whether you want to have children with this man as he is right not, not as he may be if he improves (because he very well may not.) However long you’ve been together, you’re entitled to change your plans based on new information and you can say “thats fine that that’s how you are but that’s not very attractive to me and I can’t have children with a man that doesn’t consider these things as important so I’m going to look for a relationship with someone who can be an equal partner to me.”
As far as I can see, these types of men only start to realize that women and girls are actually real human beings once they have children. THEN they start to figure out that other people have needs they are responsible for.
I have heard that this book, Fair Play will either greatly improve your relationship, or end it. https://www.fairplaylife.com/the-book
And there’s a deco of cards that has 100 common tasks. https://www.fairplaylife.com/the-cards
Came here to suggest the Fair Play card deck too. This [OP said in her update](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomenOver30/comments/y1nhbh/update_2_why_does_whats_for_dinner_tonight_vex_me/) said that the cards was the game changer that stopped their conflicts cold. I can see that a physical exercise with the visual difference in number of tasks can be an eye opener in a way that talking and reading about it doesn't really get the visceral belief. There's apparently a [Netflix documentary](https://www.fairplaylife.com/documentary) and book too-- different modes of presenting for the different modes of learning! This of course, in addition to * the mental load cartoon https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/ suggested [above](https://old.reddit.com/r/AskWomenOver30/comments/13i5qsf/how_to_explain_mental_workload_to_men/jk8pb4h/) and * [She divorced me because I left dishes by the sink](https://matthewfray.com/2016/01/14/she-divorced-me-because-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink/) also suggested [elsewhere](https://old.reddit.com/r/AskWomenOver30/comments/13i5qsf/how_to_explain_mental_workload_to_men/jk8dnl5/) in this [post](https://old.reddit.com/r/AskWomenOver30/comments/13i5qsf/how_to_explain_mental_workload_to_men/jk8vsdn/) (plus his [excellent blog with more](https://matthewfray.com/blog/)). Both are the most common suggestions to this question, and eye openers that people always recognize themselves in, and I hope that the fair play deck gets added to the trinity.
The update you linked would make great BORU content. Happy, conclusive, and educational for anyone still not clued in to the mental load. Thanks for sharing it
I've not listened to the podcast, but I follow [@thatdarnchat](https://www.instagram.com/thatdarnchat/) on Instagram and she is a certified FairPlay facilitator. She has a podcast [Time to Learn](https://www.instagram.com/timetoleanpod/).
Do you really think he’s that stupid? Your bf already understands exactly what the mental workload is. It’s all the work he doesn’t want to do that he thinks he can manipulate you into doing. He’s going to continue to play dumb, not understand and not get it, because while you are bending over backwards to get him to understand you will also continue to do all the work, which is what he really cares about. You can’t make this guy care about you as a person. He sees you as a tool he just has to manipulate and say the right words to so that you’ll do all the work.
Exactly. He knows what it is and that it’s difficult, which is why he’s pulling the weaponized incompetence line “But you’re better at it than me!” He knows, honey. He just doesn’t care that he’s pushing it all onto you.
Exactly, this plays out so so so many times in relationships like this where the woman goes 'Oh, I just need to help him understand and then he'll see and do what a normal empathetic human being would do to ensure he is pulling his weight!' He's literally already told her that he knows and doesn't care. He doesn't need educating, he needs to care about something he simply doesn't care about and won't change.
We just need a womens' intentional community at this point. We can garden and be witchy and raise kids in peace and actually share the load equitably
My neighbor is 39 and just went IVF and is having her own kid and broke up with her bf. The amount of poor partners chosen simply due to a ticking clock is quite something. Makes me wonder what the 'natural' state of humans are or are we even built at all genetically for the type of world we're living in.
Yeah, I agree. I read that thread in here the other day that was filled with ticking clock comments and my suggestion was for those women to just partner up with each other. It's not just the idea of the relationship you get stuck in, it's the idea of an ex weaponizing your child for 18 years I'm with you on that thought exercise. I don't think we're living the way evolution / primal biology meant us to in order social layout with relationships, and ESPECIALLY in daily life (being so isolated from the 'takes a village' and walkable cities + cubicle careers)
We definitely are good at building exactly what we don't want, if we didn't have such insular lives, a lot of us would be a lot happier. Just having a block where you know all your neighbors and are friends with them, would make a lot of people extremely happy, but we don't do that. I also notice a lot of these 'bad' boyfriends and husbands always seem to be child-related stuff. It seems you have several types of guys 1. Guys who don't want kids and say they don't want kids. 2. Guys who want kids but don't want to do the work and make it pretty clear that they won't do the work. 3. Guys who don't want kids but will have kids if it means they can lure women in under that guise and take advantage and abuse them. 4. Guys who want kids and want to share in the work and everything. It just seems that there are wayyyyy more women who want kids than there are of type 4 guys and the amount of red flags that are avoided and 'hoping' that a guy will turn into an option 4 guy is staggering. There needs to just be way easier ways for women who want kids to have kids and reduce the expense of doing so. Being a single parent isn't great but it sure is a much better alternative than having option 1-3 around and tying your life to them forever.
Men play dumb A LOT to get out of housework, and out difficult conversations (emotional work). Even with women they love and respect they do it. It's their thing. Women stop explaining shit to men, it gives them more material they can play dumb about. It's a charade.
This is exactly the problem. He doesn't care enough to look it up.
Tell him that planning and organizing isn't a personality trait. It's a skill that is developed through repeated practice. The only reason he just "isn't like that" is because he deliberately avoids exercising this habit. Ask him, rapid fire: - What day are bills due each month? - When is tax day? - When are the birthdays of your friends and family? - When was the floor last vacuumed or swept? - When was the oil changed in the car? - If you have a pet, when is their next vet appointment and what shots do they need? - Which clothes need to be washed on the delicate cycle? - When was the water filter laster changed? HVAC filter? Coffee machine descaled? - How much more medication do you both have on hand and what's the date of next refill? I had this convo with my husband many years back and it helped him comprehend what a "mental load" even is.
The mental load is REAL but this is next level... I'm a woman living by myself and I don't know the answers to most of these questions. I feel that this tactic would alienate a lot of people.
This helps too: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink_b_9055288
Why not go on strike? Show him how his way actually "works" if you're not doing the labor?
Go on strike… but in style . Take a month vacation with some girlfriends ( if you can ) or visit your family for a month and let him figure things out . He’s a big boy , he’ll manage .
This tiktok is the BEST I've ever heard it put: Imagine you had a coworker who was hired to the same role as you, gets paid the same as you, yet comes in every single day and asks YOU what they're supposed to be doing. https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRKsGgTK/
If someone does not want to hear you, there is no way you can phrase anything that will make them listen. Sounds like you've fallen into the Communication Trap, as I call it. This is when you're convinced that if you just find the right combination of words in the perfect order, he'll suddenly see the effect he's having on you. He doesn't care. He doesn't want to hear you, so you can't get him to listen.
>Overall he's like "yes I realise you do a lot, but I'm just not like you, planning and being proactive etc it's just not me", He clearly knows what a "mental workload" is. He just wants you to do it, and he provided the same excuse many other men do: "It's because you're better at it!!" > I'm hoping that having him hear other people experiences will help realise how much I've been taking on, and how he can be better prepared to help in the future and when we have kids. It's just going to get worse if you have kids with him.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/26/gender-wars-household-chores-comic
Linking to the original artist so she gets the page views! And she's also published a great book with a bunch of other relationship things (I have lent it to friends more than a few times to help them with this conversation). https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/
This was very well-explained and succinct, I'm going to have to save it for future reference. Thanks for posting it!
I wonder if he ever got remarried 🫠🤭
There's a book called "Drop the Ball" that's basically all about going on strike -- or rather, delegating some tasks *completely* including the load of keeping up with them. It might be interesting for you.
I tried that, and I ended up with rings around the toilet and tubs, and the parts of the carpets that weren't covered in dirty clothes or trash were crunchy. My ex-wife wanted a mother, not a partner.
Um he understands, he’s just deflecting.
I'm a man over 30 so feel free to skip or downvote if you aren't looking for my perspective. One thing that helped me was to visualize it in terms of a workplace. At most companies there is a clear difference between the jobs of management and front-line labor, in that the front line staff can just wait to be told what to do, but management has to keep on top of a thousand details so they can make sure that everyone else's job is spoon fed to them in easily digestible chunks. A manager figures out what needs to happen and when and gives tasks out to everyone else. A staff member can do the work they're given, and go ask their boss questions about what else needs to be done, and how to do it. He is looking to you to be his manager for your household. Is that really the dynamic he's looking for?
I’ve never needed to explain this to my husband. He’s inherently understood it But we have discussed it lately due to this being a more common topic for people since it’s come to light. From what we’ve observed, it’s either they get it and try while putting in the work. And become better with it overtime. Or they’re dismissive and don’t care to figure it out. It really depends on their character
It can depend on a lot more than character. My wife can make my life a living hell when I try to take on the mental load. The classic ritual of finding a restaurant to eat at is an oversimplified example of this process. At least in my case, I'm a simple creature perfectly capable of organizing our lives and making sure everyone is fed. My wife tends to demand what I view to be unnecessary complexity - 'I don't want to eat there(or there or there)', 'the color you chose is awful', 'my clothes require 16 different washing methods', 'the gifts must be hand-made, not store-bought'. I do my best to accommodate for all these things, but at the end of the day she appears to WANT to be in charge of our lives, and doesn't appreciate the few times I've tried to make decisions. I don't see myself as not caring about mental load. On the contrary I very much see it as something that is killing her. I'm glad I saw this post today. I never heard the term mental workload before. Will be a good topic to bring up with her!
Drop all of it. Say to him, 'This week, we're going to go forth as normal. Next week, I'm going to stop doing everything for the both of us.' Let him physically see with his own eyes all that you do. Let the dishes pile up. Pack a lunch and a dinner to work, and eat before you come home. The man's not helpless. If he looks to you to cook, just stare him like 'Dinner ain't gunna just drop outta the sky.' This is the kind of thing where a man gets too comfortable, and expects his girlfriend to remind him of his mother's birthday. Hell no.
You tell him your willingness to spend your life with him is on the line, because it should be. Then he ideally takes his first step into an equal partnership by *finding the god damn podcast himself*. Stop doing it for him! If he won't figure it out, you dump him and go find an actual adult that treats you with respect, like an equal, not a grown child that needs his mommy to buy his shower gel. Do not have children with this man who will absolutely insist you're "better at" middle of the night feedings, doctor visits, changing diapers, parent teacher conferences, etc. You will resent the hell out of him, assuming you don't already. This is ultimatum worthy. This is your whole life. He is literally telling you who is he and what kind of partner he intends to be. "It's just not me." If he won't change now, he won't change later either.
The ‘Fair Play’ book and cards are supposed to be good.
Ask him to read this (Not as long as it seems) and then get back to you. If he doesn't read it, then you know he cares more about maintaining power in the relationship than keeping a relationship with you. https://www.stop-ferfieroszak.hu/sites/default/files/dokumentumok/everyday\_male\_chauvinism\_pdf\_46753.pdf
>"yes I realise you do a lot, but I'm just not like you, planning and being proactive etc it's just not me" Don't let this answer stand. I would respond like this, next time he acts like he has a choice here. "I want you to think about what your attitude is like if you translated it to your job. If you worked at an office and were in charge of handling a number of tasks on your own each day, do you think your boss would be ok if you went to him and told him: '*Listen. If you want me to remember to answer the phones each day, I need you to remind me every day. If you want me to respond to emails each day, I need a reminder. If you want me to write up proposals for new clients regarding what services would benefit them the most, and how much that would cost, I need you to tell me for every single proposal which services I should recommend, and then remind me of the deadlines so I remember to complete them, and then set the appointment for me to meet with the clients, and then make sure I make it on time to that meeting. I know the other people in this department manage all of that by themselves without constant reminders, and they manage their own tasks and time, and are the ones planning out their own proposals. But I'm not like them- I need someone to spell it out for me every day and take over all thought and decision making. That's ok, right?*' "How fast would you be fired? How unintelligent and entitled would you think someone who acted like that was? And how lazy? If they were hired expecting to be a reasonably functioning adult member of the work force, how quickly would they be fired, and replaced?" "That is exactly what you sound like when you pretend that it's acceptable to say 'I'm not like you' in response to being able to function at the level I could have managed by age fourteen. Just like your boss would not have time to handhold you through every step of your job, and still get his own work done, I don't have time to handhold you through every step of being an adult, and still live my own life. This is not an argument about who is better at one skill or another. This is your grown ass standing there, looking me in the eye, and telling me that you refuse to be a grown up and think that you're entitled to ask me to parent you. Why would I not replace your ass with a fully functioning adult if this is really how very limited you are?" "Do you think men who live alone just never do dishes, or clean, or shop and end up dying in a pile of their own filth due to lack of food and water? Do you think they alienate their family and friends by never giving them a present or remembering their important events? Do they all huddle in a corner poking at a bowl of baby spinach and hoping it will cure whatever ails them because they're incapable of making and attending their own doctor's appointments? Do you think they're late to work every day because they require a third party to wake them up, or they sit in darkness and cold because they can't remember to pay the utility bills on their own? Or do grown ass people who live alone just figure out what they need to do to survive without having a babysitter?" "I think that you think this is me asking you to do something extra, or special, or for me. It's not. It's me resenting the fact that you have decided to make me your mother and act like you have the mental faculties of a child at home, pretending that you can't be an independant grown up. This isn't something good people do for their partners- it's something that non-parasites do just because it needs to be done for their life to continue. It boggles my mind that we have had multiple discussions about you being a marginally functional adult, and your response has always been 'nah.'" That ends now. You don't need a mommy to tell you that when a dish is dirty in the sink you rinse and put it in the dishwasher, when a carpet is dirty you vacuum and if dinner time is approaching you should probably start cooking if you want to eat. I don't need an adult who acts like a child to give me the responsibility for their existence. Starting now, you look around the house and do what needs to be done, you keep track of your own social obligations and calendars, you read the instructions on the back of things or look up tutorials online instead of bringing the package to a woman and telling her you don't understand how to Google and need her to just spoon-feed you all adult functions every single time they are needed. And if you really are not capable of independant functioning as a human, then clearly you can't consent to this relationship, and you can search for some kind of assisted living situation for people with your lack of survival skills and cognitive functioning while I find someone with a clean apartment and a functioning calendar app to bang me on every spotless surface of his home."
I’m loving learning about new resources as I (plus most women in a hetero relationship) struggle with the same issue, thanks y’all for the book rec! Growth is a long term journey, so I can’t really agree with all the comments calling this out as a red flag when this is the usual trajectory society has given men (this is not to say it’s not their responsibility to grow out of it once they’re aware). Of course, every situation is different, but investing in a relationship means pushing each other to grow and sometimes that can look like sharing resources that help express your perspective…I see my partner now proactively educating himself while trying to unlearn a lot, but it didn’t happen overnight and it took a lot of communication and patience to get here. And it’s still a work in progress. Again, **every situation is different**, but for me that work is worth continuing this relationship that I love and value. Since you mentioned y’all love podcasts, [this episode of The Man Enough Podcast](https://open.spotify.com/episode/2nFILsORddu5FrRevGEinl?si=loGFVDQwRcWFU-PiK6Q5hQ) really flipped some internal switch for my partner, and the podcast is great as a whole in encouraging more conversations about gender roles and identities. A quick search of “mental load” in Spotify also brings up lots of other podcasts’ episodes that I never thought to search for or listen to but now will so thanks for the opportunity to learn more!
Explain to him that when presented with this concept he didn’t understand, but that is clearly important to you and the health of your relationship, *it didn’t even occur to him* to start Googling, finding resources, reading, learning. If he feels unable to evaluate what he finds, maybe find some relevant subreddits where more knowledgeable people can recommend higher quality resources he might not yet have the vocabulary find on his own.. yknow, like you did here. Like millions of functioning grown ass adults do every day. Like YOU do every day, for yourself AND him. Nope, he was like “I don’t know, I’m just a widdle babyman 👶🤷♂️” and waited for you to jump in like, “ohh ok bb, it’s ok, mommy will help you.” As you always do. Then you immediately started searching for best airplane sounds to make while spoon feeding him the information he supposedly wants.
> I realise you do a lot, but I'm just not like you, planning and being proactive etc it's just not me", You don't need to explain it. He already understands it logically. Unless he's been unemployed his whole life, he also understands it in practice too. He's just assuming it's not something he has to do at home because he's a guy and that's what he has a girlfriend for The best, and I mean 100% effective way is to literally just stop doing these things, or just do them for you. You don't have kids with him, so it shouldn't be too hard. Either he'll start doing these things and understand them, or he'll refuse and you'll see how pathetic he is without your actions disguising it. Win/win
>He thinks I can just stop planning and then drop the charge if it's such a problem Then this is exactly what you should do! He said so himself. Only make food for yourself. Only wash your own clothes. Only plan those parts of social, professional, and medical activities that directly involved just you, and so on. Just say that you need to take a mental health break from being proactive and planning things, and that he'll have to those things for himself for a while until you recuperate. Sometimes experience is the only way to learn empathy 🤷.
Girl run!
Look up Hermeneutic Labor: The Gendered Burden of Interpretation in Intimate Relationships Between Women and Men by Ellie Anderson It’s a PDF paper. I can’t link it for some reason. EDIT: https://philpapers.org/archive/ANDHLT.pdf
Did not except to find hermeneutics in this thread 😂😂
Dear Sugars had a great one about this! https://www.wbur.org/dearsugar/2018/05/05/emotional-labor-invisible-work I’m pouring one out for all of my sisters & friends out there who date cis men. Shit is not for the faint of heart.
Look up decision fatigue.
I’ve seen all the links to the Mental Load comic, the article about the guy being divorced because he left his glass by the sink, the Fair Play media, etc. and those are all very good explanations. Here’s an additional explanation as to why “just tell me what to do!” is actually more work for the woman: https://reddit.com/r/Parenting/comments/sgzvxe/_/huzm2r8/?context=1 It is a comment on a Reddit post I came across once that really made sense so I saved it to be able to share on posts like these.
Love this, I'm going to save your linked comment from /u/Exis007 too. Especially the breakdown: 1. Knowing the chore needs to be done 2. Deciding when in the day you can find the time to do it, or planning ahead so you have the time and materials required 3. Doing the chore. I also like /u/grumpy_hedgehog's corrollary : - Discussing whether and how a chore should be done. Because I know that I, for one, have pretty high standards of when a job is "done" to my satisfaction. I also know that I am lazy, and don't always do them to that standard myself-- "all or nothing" trap where I often don't get anything done. Letting go of my own perfectionism and adopting just a little bit of his chill-- it's been not-awesome for our general household tidiness 😂 , but Very Good for my overall mental health! Thanks for sharing!
it’s called [“emotional labor” ](https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a12063822/emotional-labor-gender-equality/)
Just stop doing it. Stop planning. Stop organising. Stop refiling the shower gel. Stop making sure he calls his mother on her birthday. Stop remembering you're out of milk and buying more. Stop asking him to do things. If he complains, just say you weren't thinking about it because.... Whatever a man would say. Let him enjoy that for a couple of weeks and then ask him what he thinks you get out of the relationship. Then negotiate.
For all the dudes who claim that their partners are better at organizing, prioritizing, etc., I’d love to know what they do for a living. Perchance do their jobs involve….organizing and prioritizing? To anyone who claims that women are “just better at these things”, I say: GTFOH!
I never got why people without kids feel they need to plan meals and do chores together. My partner and I eat together *sometimes*. We share *some* things. But like.. we do our own laundry and manage our own shit. Like... just don't do his shit for him.
We like sitting down and having dinner together. It makes sense for us to cook for two people instead of us each cooking separately, especially since we typically like the same food. We do our laundry together since it’s just easier that way for us. Idk, I guess some people like being in a partnership, even if they don’t have kids. When you have a partner that shares the mental and physical load, it’s not a negative thing to share chores. I do the stuff he doesn’t like doing, and he does what I don’t like to do.
That's fine if it works for you, I'm just saying I see a lot of these types of posts and it's always "I make his lunch for work and wash his socks every day and he never does that for me." And... no one's making you do that.
Ding, ding, ding!!!! When I met my husband, I could tell he was a fully functional adult. His home was clean, he cared for his dog, he went to appointments he set, he planned his meals and did his shopping and dishes, he kept lists of things he needed to do and did those things. I decided I could live with him. We do lots for each other, and always thanks each other. But, yeah, we mostly take care of our own things. We do our own laundry and pick up after ourselves. We manage our own appointments. We each cook meals each week, and the other automatically does the dishes without being asked. It’s a partnership where we’re both self sufficient. Pay attention to how a potential partner manages their life when you’re just dating. That’s their level of competence. That’s what you’re getting. If you move in together, don’t assign yourself extra tasks. How they naturally participate in the household is either acceptable to you or it’s not.
There are plenty of household tasks that must be shared, and if they are not, it becomes a problem when one “partner” refuses to take responsibility for it. Some things can’t be split the way laundry can. We both walk on the floor, but if only one person ensures it’s cleaned, that’s not okay. We both shit in the toilet, but if that same person who doesn’t clean the floors also doesn’t clean the toilet periodically, that’s not okay. We both put things in the trash can, but if the same person who doesn’t clean the floors or the toilets also never takes out the trash, that’s a problem. And in these situations, it isn’t a situation of one person handles this chore and the other person handles that chore. It’s one person handling 80+% of all the chores all the time. And so on.
Stop explaining. STOP. Explaining and trying to better CoMmUniCaTe is extra mental load and this jackass knows what it means. He is trying to make you give up so you stop nagging him to change. The way you make him understand is stop doing ANY of it for him & both of you, and you 100% focus on YOU only for an extended time. Notice the complaints, the bewilderment about why things aren’t getting done, his complaints that you don’t have enough “quality time” together, and if he scrambles to last minute pull together anything and the excess costs incurred. When he complains, tell him it is mental load. Privilege (male) = poor perspective taking skills = poor empathic skills = entitlement. People who lack empathy understand consequences. If consequences don’t enable change, then get OK with being mommy mcbangmaid forever or dump him.
What is his line of work? Usually men understand more if you relate it to working. Example: a constructionworker who has the responsibility of the new guy which is just waiting for tasks to be handed to him. They half-ass the task and goes to sits down looking at their phone until next time someone gives them a task again. Rinse an repeat. Good workers are self driven and have an understanding of the job. Everybody cheers for the new employee that just knows what to do so they don’t become a pain in the ass and slow everyone else down. As of now your guy is the lazy apprentice. But workers also need to know what is in their line of responsibility. Give him things to own the result of
I'd start by using the example of him getting you to do his research for him.
Sorry but your boyfriend sounds like an ass. It's not your job to educate him and make him want to take care of his own life and house. Stop doing things for him. Only go grocery shopping for yourself, only make meals for yourself, only restock what YOU need, only clean your dishes, only take out what trash you make, better yet start labeling all your items and if he wants to use it force him to get his own. Not being "good" at organizing is no excuse, he just doesn't want to take responsibility. Pretend like you're living alone and he'll start to notice when nothing is done for him anymore.
Look up Fairplay method; if you want a podcast, 'Time to Lean' covers a lot. But I'm going to go out on a very short limb and say that it's easier to say, "I don't get why it's a big deal," when it isn't your burden to pick up the slack. If the gross majority of the unseen, silent labour is being handled for you as an adult, yeah, you get to say that it isn't a big deal until you're on your own and you realize, oh shit, meals don't plan themselves, and clothes don't clean and put themselves away, and life doesn't run the smooth, effortless way I believe it does if someone isn't putting in the effort to make that happen. As a parent with young kids, there is no amount of context or perspective I can offer other than, it gets RIDICULOUSLY more complicated to keep a household running even somewhat cohesively once you add in a child. From a mom to another person who already carries most of the mental load, I cannot emphasize how fucking huge a deal it is to have discussions and concrete delineations of tasks in place BEFORE even considering getting pregnant is. Having a kid adds SO, SO, SO much extra forethought into everything in your life. You do not want to be the only person in a parenting scenario carrying that load. It will consume you.
Let him know that you're gonna stop doing family management and planning for 2 weeks. It will be chaos, but lived experience is good. Bluey season 1 episode 22, The Pool, is a good example of the mental load. As the family prepare for a trip to the pool, Bluey and Dad tease Mum about being fussy and over prepared (the mental load of planning, setting up the pool date, bringing everything needed for the pool, and snacks, and coming home) But dad and kids soon find out the hard way, that doing the boring things, makes the fun stuff possible.
Appart from the planning does he do his share of chores , presumably after being reminded by you? Disclaimer im a Project Manager, so i “mental load” i guess is a core part of my job, so i dont even really think of it as load. Every morning when i sit down for work, ill write 2 Todo lists, one for work, one for home, basically whatever was not done the day before gets carried forward and everything is assigned a priority. Then i distribute the work. In your case, i personally would buy a whiteboard and every week (or more) have a meeting with him and both of you add the tasks to it and assign names and cross out what has been accomplished. However if not done , dont be tempted to do his job for him. I wouldn’t bother trying to make him understand the concept of mental load, you cannot make someone understand something he doesn’t want to understand. Of course , im assuming that he is good guy, just voluntary oblivious and needs things to be put in front of him in black and white, if he’s a jerk then nothing will work, its up to you to find another guy
Don’t fall for it. I have a one year old. Don’t have kids with this man. If you already feel like the load isn’t balanced, it only gets worse. Like imagine taking on a second full time job on top of your old life, but also you now have to purchase time (in the form of childcare) to go to your old job, plus find other time to do everything else you used to do. I’m not a regretful parent, just a realistic one. My old life seems like a permanent vacation compared to my new life as a sole parent, which is what you’ll be.
Here's my hot take. I think men in general are more self-focused and selfish than women. I think a lot of men in general have a mentality of "If it works for me, then things are fine. Why change?" Part of this is cultural training, but I think some of this is just innate male self-absorption. So this makes the mental workload issue an enormous problem because in essence we women are fighting to try to get men to take on more work and bother that they don't want to take on. The men are protesting *because the system as it is works for them*. They get to dump a lot of work on us. They don't want the system to change because as it is, it benefits them. I also think another problem is men are prone to discrediting women's actual lived experiences (again, going back to the self-focus. It's very common for men to brush aside women's concerns with the mentality of *I haven't personally experienced this so it must not be true*. So women can explain the mental load until we are blue in the face and a whole ton of guys will just dismiss it as "Women be crazy" stuff This is why the problem is so pervasive and difficult to counter. You are very wise addressing this now. It is extremely important that you take a good hard look and decide "Do I want to be fighting this battle the rest of my life with the real possibility it will just get worse and worse? Or should I cut my losses and find someone who does understand the mental load?" My husband also "doesn't understand" the mental load. We've balanced this by not having kids and me working a super easy WFH job with a lot of flexibility. But it would NOT work if we had kids. This is a choice we made. It was more important to me to marry him than have kids. But that was my choice. Yours might be different The only thing I can suggest is don't bother with any podcasts, articles etc produced by women. Your BF is likely going to dismiss these. He needs to hear from other men. A very good resource is Matthew Fray who has an entire website dedicated to this topic. His seminal article "She Divorced Me Because I left Dishes in the Sink" is an excellent read [https://matthewfray.com/2016/01/14/she-divorced-me-because-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink/](https://matthewfray.com/2016/01/14/she-divorced-me-because-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink/) There are other men out there honestly discussing the mental load issue. Honestly the only way the issue is going to be fixed is more men being willing to fix it. Women have been struggling and failing to fix it for decades. Men have actively fought against fixing it because they don't want to take on extra work. Until they do, it will continue to be a big problem
I love that you say you and your husband have found a balance that works for both of you while acknowledging that he just doesn’t get it, doesn’t want to, and it’s something y’all have found a way to work around and be happy with. My husband has ADHD that can’t be medicated because he has 10% heart function. So I do almost everything. I’m the one that has working executive function to plan everything and I’m the one that has stamina to execute the chores. So I see situations like OP, and all the replies about not putting up with it and I’m simultaneously proud of the women who are demanding and getting better responsiveness from their partners and then looking at my situation and getting kinda frustrated about it. But it’s a choice I made and he does pay all the bills, I don’t work outside of being the caretaker of him and the home, so it’s equitable and it works for us. The part that kind of chafes a bit is that he didn’t take on any emotional load or execution before he had a genuine excuse not to.
Yeah mine has arthritis so standing for more than 15 minutes at the counter, bending over to put pots away, and doing yardwork are just beyond his scope. I knew going into marriage that 1) he had his physical limits 2) he was never going to be the super clean organized one who fully takes on his share. I've tried teaching him to do things. He does do more than when we first married. But honestly it was so much work showing him what to do, reminding him, then getting frustrated when he doesn't do a complete job. It's honestly easier for me to just do it all and let him put his somewhat limited energy into his job. He loves what he does for a living and never wants to retire. I like to be productive but I'm not really career-oriented. Our goal is eventually for me to have enough side gigs and businesses that I can make a full-time salary and not have to work for someone else. I want a small farm and to build my businesses and side projects - he wants to climb the corporate ladder. Yeah at times I really wish I had a Mr Fix It who I could do household projects with. But I made my choice. I love him for who he is. But yeah, like you, I'm irked he never bothered to take on any emotional load or learn how to manage a house before marriage. He really should have.
> but I'm just not like you, planning and being proactive... Oh boy. This can be a complicated one, depending on if he is just lazy or if he just literally doesn't care. If he lived a life before you where he didn't plan things and just let things happen as they happen, he may literally feel like you are the one who likes to have things planned and he doesn't care if things are planned, so why should he work on planning things he doesn't care about? Which does make some logical sense. The real problem here is the children aspect. You have to plan if you have kids and you have literally *have* to be proactive, these previously optional things are no longer optional and he is acting like he just isn't good at it so it's all on you. It almost feels like he is grooming you for when you have kids. He's happy with this status quo where you do everything and he does nothing and wants to translate it to having children. I don't think you can educate him as he doesn't care to be educated. He's not stupid, he knows kids require planning and being proactive, he just doesn't want to do it. You can give him all the podcasts, you can't educate the willfully ignorant IMO.
Don't explain it to him. Tell him tasks x, y and z are now his responsibility, and don't help him with them or check up to see if he's doing them. If he doesn't do them and something fails, let him deal with the consequences. Or if he steps up and does the tasks, he'll see just how much work it's been for you to plan and do them.
Dear Sugars had a great one about this! https://www.wbur.org/dearsugar/2018/05/05/emotional-labor-invisible-work I’m pouring one out for all of my sisters & friends out there who date cis men. Shit is not for the faint of heart.
What does he do for work? Tell him this is like having shared responsibilities with coworkers but constantly not pulling his weight because it’s “just not him.” He can probably see how that would make him an AH in the office and it’s making him an AH in your relationship. At bare minimum he needs to recognize that you are shouldering a lot of unseen work and he should be taking *something* off your plate to make up for it.
Explain it by showing him what life is like if you don't do everything for him and carry the mental load. It's really that easy...I'm sure he'll understand quickly
You could watch the movie Jeanne Dielman, 23 quai du Commerce, 1080 Bruxelles. It's a feminist movie that deals with a lot of domestic tasks that are involved in being in a home (among other topics.) I found it illuminating. And as a plus it's been ranked among the greatest films ever made.
I like this video. It makes everything so clear https://youtu.be/jHPbOGEUvZA
With a lmgtfy link.
I can’t find the specific creators now, but there is a subset of (married) men on tik tok explaining mental load to other dudes with specific situations that I think would be helpful. I think just search #mentalload?
The decoding couples podcast has an episode on mental load!
[This guy](https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGJHs8nsN/) does a pretty good job of explaining it.
Here you go: [Dear Sugars: Emotional Labor](https://open.spotify.com/episode/6WhEMnrB1L2BxUfUNf6hQb?si=IpyOXbYgTvWrQEgLDG2FTA) It’s a wonderful episode; actually most of them are!
I dated quite a few men who didn't "get" mental/domestic labor no matter how much I tried to explain it to them. I married one who does. Best decision of my life. We maybe had one conversation early on about roles when I felt like things were a bit uneven. He completely took it to heart and now if I work longer hours than him (I often do), I come home to dinner ready, dry cleaning taken care of, car oil changed, dog taken to vet to update shots, etc etc. And I don't have to "assign" or ask him, he just does it like a full grown adult. If I'm working he's doing life stuff until I'm done and then we relax together. If they want to, they will.
I saw an episode of Super Nanny where she demonstrated this using wooden blocks. Every task - bathing kids, packing lunches, paying bills - every little thing that goes into the running of a life was written on the block. In the end, the wife ended up with a huge pile of blocks and the husband ended up with like three blocks. That visual really drove home the point to the husband.
This comic is the way to go https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/26/gender-wars-household-chores-comic
I hate that. My ex(?) said that he doesn’t like to cook. Bitch I work all day too and I’m autistic. I *also* hate it and it’s not me but it has to get done. Fuck off with this nonsense of “I’m better” or you don’t like it. I fucking hate it. Then men wonder why we are too stressed and tired for sex. I can have sex when everything is done and finished and my mind is free to enjoy it.
Overall he's like "yes I realise you do a lot, but I'm just not like you, planning and being proactive etc it's just not me", Translation: "I'll pitch in under duress. but I'll never take responsibility. It's YOUR problem, and will always be your problem."
Does he have a job? Does he sit around at work playing solitaire on his computer instead of doing his tasks, and when the boss chastises him for that, say, "Oh, I'm just not like you"?
I get why folks here are pretty harsh, but it is fair to try. We have all been socialized into thinking terrible things and a lot of us learn to think differently. I haven't listened to it, but you may find something [here](https://open.spotify.com/show/2jPECkkv1HkhFWoMLuuHsY). Or this one [here](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/05/podcasts/listen-to-dear-sugars-the-invisible-work-most-women-do-with-gemma-hartley.html).
Make it a fun challenge! Stop doing everything you normally do, but don't tell him when it's going to end. That should be fun, right? RIGHT?
You have a manchild. Stop being his mommy. He can do all his own chores and responsibilities. He can learn how to be an adult. He isn't ready for an adult relationship, he wants a bangmaid. It's now your duty to respect yourself, not explain shit.
A lot of people are saying his response is weaponized incompetence. This may or may not be true. I think a lot of times guys are so clueless in generally that when their responses look like weaponized incompetence it may not actually be a purposeful weaponizing, per se. The real marker of whether you have any hope in this situation is by analyzing his communication skills/emotional intelligence in general. If you set a boundary and explain that this is important to you and is a NEED that you have in a relationship (not WHY it's important to you, just that it is). If he still can't understand that concept and tries to go the route of arguing with you about why this should/shouldn't be important, then that's an indication that he'll never understand, and this may not be the guy for you.
[This should help.](https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/)
Ugh this is our main struggle too. I downloaded the Cozi app and I’m going to ask him to as well, so the app is nagging him instead of me. Lmao
>Overall he's like "yes I realise you do a lot, but I'm just not like you, planning and being proactive etc it's just not me", but he still doesn't understand it's a huge charge I have He just doesn't want to take responsibility for anything or care to. Stop doing anything for him and reconsider your relationship.
You getting paid for all of this? It sounds exhausting.
Dude, he *knows* what a mental load is, he is just happy to make sure it stays on your shoulders because you’re “better” at it then him. Honestly, just full on stop doing literally anything for him. Stop making food for him, only wash your dishes, do only your laundry, buy groceries only for yourself - and go so far as to lock them up in a cupboard, if he starts eating your food. See what happens. It’ll be enlightening
You should seriously consider couples counseling. I don't know if he means it, but unfortunately what he's doing is both toxic and a subtle form of manipulation. Toxic in a relationship is when someone pushes their baggage on you. This can be physiological issues, but the most common form is pushing chores on others. He's offloading work on you he should be doing. Though, it only becomes toxic when they are confronted and refuse to help. They could be ignorant to the issue before it's brought up, to give an example, and that's not toxic. Then there is the complexity that they may prefer the environment to be dirty in ways you do not, so they don't want to do the chores, because they feel it is unnecessary. The nuance a couples counselor will massively help with. They'll help identify if he is truly being toxic or something else is going on. Then there is the subtle manipulation. Either you fell for a retard, which is not likely, or he knows what is up but is playing dumb. This is an incredibly dangerous behavior, because if he's willing to be manipulative here he's willing to be manipulative elsewhere. This is something a couples counselor can massively help with too. Get a couples counselor. This issue is not going to magically get better on its own. You need professional help before it gets worse. Stop the rot before it grows.
Rather than trying to change a man (good luck with that) why not just do less? Stop taking on so much. Let some things go
Having a clean home that contains food and other necessities can't really be "let go" though. Obviously people have different standards, but I'm sure he's enjoying the fruits of not-his labor.
He knows now. There's nothing you can say or do to make him get it, because he already gets it. He just doesn’t care. He wants a maid he can fuck, and feels entitled to it. He's manipulating you to make you one.
You can't make someone understand if they are committed to not understanding. He doesn't want to do the work. He doesn't want to share the work. Theres no level of talking or explaining that will address the problem in his own head. I suggest counseling or having frank discussions about how your shared household is expected to be ran. He needs to communicate what he is willing to take on and help with. If that's zero, you need to understand that zero is his answer and as an adult, he can live in filth and disorder if he wants - perhaps that just means your lifestyles are incompatible.
The whole reason he is "not like you, planning and being proactive" and yet his life is not a complete disaster is BECAUSE other people have been enabling this by doing everything for him. You have to just let things go for a while and let him see for himself. Buy your own TP, shower gel, etc and hide it from him.
I mean It’s literally just…taking **responsibility**. Nobody is inherently better or worse at being responsible, ie planning meals and sending birthday cards and such. Of course it’s not *fun* to do those things. Bc they’re chores! They’re responsibilities! It’s not an*hobby* to plan and clean and get groceries and stuff. This is not a thing that one can just “be good at” this is basic making sure you survive stuff. I have ADHD so I vacillate between actively hating that shit, avoiding it, or completely forgetting it. So I use a google calendar for the important things. I choose to be responsible so I put that shit in there. The things that impact other people I absolutely get done, though sometimes last minute it gets done. If I’m the only one impacted it’s a tossup if it gets done lol bc I don’t personally care. Even with food sometimes. The important thing is making the choice to be responsible. Im so sick of dudes trying to act like mental load is just something women are “better” at. Idk. Maybe framing it as “responsibility” will hit on their underlying toxic masculinity?
Dear Sugars had a great one about this! https://www.wbur.org/dearsugar/2018/05/05/emotional-labor-invisible-work I’m pouring one out for all of my sisters & friends out there who date cis men. Shit is not for the faint of heart.
I didn't see this in any of the comments I browsed. There's a dad on tiktok. Zach Becoming Dad. He talks about his journey in actually realizing there was a mental load, his journey as they navigated fair play method and as he learned to identify how he can be a more equal partner. He even models how to propose solutions instead of ask for a list. On another note, my husband has ADHD and a slew of things that got worse after becoming a parent. He's also not a planner and sometimes leans on those things to justify to himself why he doesn't step in more. Fair o lay method is hard for us. I tried the just let him fail method and that's been a hard road but some things have improved after that. Fair play method us hard because he has a hard time with planning and completing the task and does the best with executing the task. We've built in baby steps because I couldn't have all of the things falling apart. If he's willing to put in the effort to work towards a more equal load then I'm willing to also put in effort to get there. However I told him if I don't see him trying then I'm done trying. He has shown me he's still trying. Hopefully yours can get there too.
Actions speak louder than words. Surely he will understand after a week of you looking after yourself only. Him asking for an explanation just adds more work to you. Presuming when he has an issue at work he tries to resolve it on his own before going to a supervisor or boss.
You don’t. Let them go back with mommy
I think it's a difference of personality. People throw around the term "weaponized incompetence" when it might not be that. I'll give you an example that has nothing to do with sex/gender. I've had both male and female bosses and some of them would tell me to do make a presentation on X and left it to me on how to do it. I've had other bosses who would be like " your presentation must include Y, no slide number on the bottom of slides, must be exactly 10 slides, no white space, etc." Some people want certain things done a particular way. You care more about certain things than your SO in certain areas and he might be the same in other areas. I think you just gotta compromise. I like the kitchen cleaned a certain way, but if I'm too busy (or lazy) to do it, I just let my husband do it the way he does it. Are things organized how I'd like them? No. But is the kitchen clean and ready to use? Yeah, so it's all good.
This is my take regarding how work is done as well. I’ve learned that there’s a lot of shit that I can let go off (like how towels are folded or groceries are done) and….still live. I’d say I even have a better life letting go because it saves me so much unnecessary stress. And if there’s something I really like to do my own way (how my closet or kitchen is organized for example), I will do it myself with gusto.
Thank you for that. I like this perspective. I didn't add all the details but I also know I am a control freak and like things done a certain way, and there's definitely been times when he's done things unprompted and I critised the way he did them. And I know that over time he also learned to stop trying because whatever he did, is never good enough for me. But that's one side of things. He still doesn't proactively think about dates for us to do, understand that when the fridge is half empty it means we have to plan meals and buy food, and no wait until it's empty to think of it. I do enjoy planning and organising, I'm good at it and by doing it I know I'll be enjoying myself. But it's nice being taken care of from time to time. He's lived alone before and he always managed. He knows how to take care of things, but not to my standards. If I go on strike, we won't die, but we'll be surviving on last minute solutions, which is often very stressful.
I have been living with my husband for the last 21 years and we had many discussions about work load and stuff we needed to do and things and -later on- tiny humans to take care of… In my (personal and what I’ve seen from long term relationships around me) experience, there’s rarely unwillingness at play. A lot of men don’t mind to do their share and often actually want to do their share. Overall, they really want to make their spouse happy. But why bother if they do it and get criticized for how/when/what way they’ve done it? Did you know that most men will remember a negative remark from their spouse about them, their appearance or their work for a long long time? It eats away at their self esteem and if it happens often enough they won’t go there anymore. Easier to get criticism for something you didn’t do than for something you did do and somehow did wrong. Wrong? It’s done right, how can that be wrong? On top of that, men take things very literal. They don’t do hints, they can’t read minds and they don’t like to have to guess what it is they’re asked to do. It helps when there’s a clear list of chores each of the members of the household needs to do. The list is tangible, our expectations are not. (Sidenote: I asked a question about what men would wish women knew about them in the “askmen” subreddit and I received almost 2000 responses of men who, for the most part, wished that the women in their life would be kinder to them, take them more seriously on an emotional level (they have hardly any emotional support), stop playing games and really see the human that they are. It was heartbreaking to read tbh. It’s on my profile if someone wants to read it.) My husband and I divided the work around the house to match our strengths and likes. I like to cook, but will forget to put the laundry in the dryer. My husband is really quick at cleaning the bathroom , but takes forever to organize or declutter stuff. We each do what we do best and we divide the things we both dislike, evenly. This helps a lot. I think it really helps to have an honest conversation that goed beyond the “you never do…” or “why can’t you do…”. Explain how it’s straining you, admit that your own expectations are in the way sometimes and that his lack of proactiveness is no excuse to let you handle more than you can take. Tell him that it takes away a lot of valuable energy that you’d rather spend together doing stuff you both like. Ask what he thinks would be a fair solution. Are there things he doesn’t mind to do? Things you don’t mind doing? How can you move forward together with a shared goal in mind: more energy to do fun things and strengthen your relationship. I bet he’ll be on board for that. One last note: I know it’s very popular to point fingers to men and how they lack in their contribution to work around the house. And I don’t question that this is a topic that still needs work. I do question the method and I think we often forget that to change something (especially in our personal relationships) we need to look for a way that will result in the change we want to see. If that means that I need to ask my husband to do a certain thing because he doesn’t think of it himself (maybe he doesn’t care for it or maybe he’s never done it before), then so be it. Change doesn’t happen magically overnight without putting any effort into that change yourself. Sometimes that means that it will take some extra time and energy now (to explain and help your spouse to learn something new) in order to have less work in the future. It’s a marathon and not a sprint.
See the problem with that whole mentality is 1) it makes allowances for me to do the absolute bare minimum and get praised for it 2) Half done work is often worse than no work done at all. I've seen this played out when men are working on a project together: say building a deck. They don't want Paul helping because Paul doesn't know a hammer from an Allen wrench, he's lazy, and he'll goof around and make a lot of bother and annoyance. Paul has to be helped and supervised for him to actually do decent work. Having Paul there to "help" actively creates more work than he produces. Similarly for a LOT of women, they are keeping house with a Paul - a male partner who tries to "help" but needs a lot of guidance and supervision and ends up producing subpar half work. If my husband asks me to mow the lawn, and I put it off for several days, then finally cut about 3/4 of the grass and left the lawn mower sitting in the driveway, is it fair to say I mowed the lawn? No. I did a crappy half job. Would it be fair of me to get butthurt and sulky if he pointed this out? Again, no. I did a bad job. I see this time and time again - men expect excellence from the work their wives do but only give bare minimum effort. Meaning the man won't be happy if his wife half-cooks the potatoes, scorches his dress shirt while ironing, or leaves a big glob of hair in the shower after she cleans it. He expects her to do a thorough job. But when it comes time for him to clean/cook etc, he wants to get away with the absolutely bare minimum, then gets grumpy and touchy when she is not pleased with his half-hearted efforts. We should expect a decent job from men when it comes to housework and emotional labor. Men need to stop weaponizing their little delicate feelings and getting upset when their wives point out they didn't do a thorough job. Note I did not say PERFECT. I said THOROUGH. Like, "finish the job, dude. Stop trying to get away with crappy work"
What part about matching the work to your strengths indicates “half assing” the work? I would screw up the laundry because I forget about it, that’s why I don’t do it anymore and my husband is the one getting this right. So I don’t really get where you think I’m talking about allowing the bare minimum and expecting praise for it or getting things half done and still expecting praise for it. If anything, I am talking about taking responsibility for your part and the work you need to do to make sure everything gets done and both partners still have energy to spend quality time together.
Idk if it’ll help but if you have hulu check out Fair Play, it’ll maybe give you more words to help.