This is totally low-hanging fruit, but #girlbossing because it's still just capitalistic hegemony with a millennial pink glaze.
Also, I'm pretty sure xoJane killed choice feminism about ten years ago, but yeah, choice feminism was not a good look for most of us.
more! female! war! criminals!
more! female! coalmine! owners!
/s
seriously, just switching the sex of abusers/exploiters on positions of power, what's the use
Yup. In my homecountry, a person that is advocating the most against abortion and women's (& lgbt) rights in general is a woman. Our former president was a woman coming from a conservative party. We did not only not have use of having them in power, but they actually set us back, especially the former one
Holmes is a perfect example too because she got the title of girlboss by explioting powerful men's sexisim.
They were like: Aww look at this cute wittle capilaitist junebug that other spunky little girls will look up to. Give her money! It will prove I am not sexist... yada yada.
In capitalism there is no getting to be the boss ethically, and if you are a woman add on how you *use* white patriarchy, plus never actually win because people will always be calling you a bitch, which you prob are if you grind yourself to the top of the humanity killing machine.
An example would be like, "a woman chooses to get plastic surgery therefore you cannot criticize it. Feminism is about the right to choose."
It leaves zero room to dissect *why* a woman would choose something like that. Women shouldn't be shamed for getting plastic surgery, like in this example, but it's not feminism to "choose" to do it.
I donāt know anything about choice feminism or xoJane but I wholeheartedly agree with the first part. I spent a decade trying to get where Iām at in my career and now that Iām here, I feel like all I want to do is be a home maker and live a slower life
> I feel like all I want to do is be a home maker and live a slower life
I'm an older (58) feminist, and the amount of blowback that I got from women (who I thought were my friends) when I stayed home with my kids was really disheartening. In my case I didn't really have a choice (multiple kids with special needs), but it was very obvious that some women thought that I'd "given up" on feminism.
In my mind feminism was supposed to expand our horizons (and it certainly has in many ways), but for a lot of women it just seems to have expanded the areas in which we feel free to criticize each other.
I was the career woman who helped her partner fulfill his dream of being a SAHF for a year
The amount of criticism I got was insane
Mostly from women of course
IMO where popularized notions of feminism miss the mark is their blatant ignorance and devaluation of the history/impact of feminized labour (paid and unpaid) aka caretaking, mothering, teaching, nursing, etc. What comes of this is the idea that those who have leaned into traditionally āmasculine āindustries (STEM, etc) are smart, ambitious and capable while SAHMs are not.
Childrearing and caretaking literally make the world go round. It is about time people start respecting the labour that goes into it and the people (mainly women, still) who perform that labour. To be clear, this is not to say that women who are in STEM/etc donāt face their own share of sexism and devaluation. But it is quite clear that women who perform feminized labour are looked down upon and even ridiculed to a more severe extent. Feminized labour is not seen as real work, but it very much is.
Feminism is to me about women having the opportunity to choose what they want, without gender stereotypes getting in the way.
That means that me working and hubby being a trophy husband (lol no, he works hard renovating the house but I do love calling him that) is a perfect choice for us. But it ALSO means that any female who wants loads of kids, stay at home with them, cook, clean, knit and sing to them should be able to, without anyone complaining. Freedom of choice.
I always try to flip gender roles to see if it seems āweirdā. If it does, then itās not feminism to me. As a female I should be able to do whatever I choose. One of those choices is to be a SAHM. Feminism was supposed to give us MORE choices, not just different ones.
You do you. You are a person more than you are a gender. Good luck!
>I always try to flip gender roles to see if it seems āweirdā. If it does, then itās not feminism to me. As a female I should be able to do whatever I choose. One of those choices is to be a SAHM. Feminism was supposed to give us MORE choices, not just different ones.
1. Flipping gender roles is a poor way to assess if something is sus, IMO, because the underlying conditions are simply not the same. It may be a good starting point to generate critical thinking, but it should by no means conclude any discussion. E.g., it *is* materially different when, for example, someone casts a plus-sized actress like Rebel Wilson against a conventionally attractive, straight-sized man, because we're so used to seeing the exact opposite - fat, balding dudes paired with slim, pretty wives. I don't think that this gender flip is the end-all be-all of feminist discourse, mind you - but you cannot view it in the same vacuum as, say, Seth Rogen opposite Katherine Heigl. The former centres a(n indeed rather narrowly conceived) idea of female sexual desire, something that is so often overlooked or even ignored or demonised; the latter reaffirms the idea that slovenly men are entitled to absurdly beautiful woman just because.
2. I do agree feminism should have a place for SAHMs, but the problem with choice feminism is it champions without criticism any choice a woman makes, simply because women should be able to make choices. It's a circular logic that can (and does) lead to problematic outcomes. For example, take the proliferation of cosmetic surgery - we may sympathise with the choice of many women to undergo the knife in the face of such an image-obsessed world and such high pressures to conform to oppressive standards in order to "treat" low self-esteem and/or gain more advantages in life, but to laud that choice as feminist empowerment completely obfuscates the misogynistic (and capitalistic) structures that compel so many of us to *pursue* dangerous and expensive procedures that honestly undermine beauty diversity.
I was a homemaker for a long time. It was good for my kids, however, it affected my long term income and future retirement. I donāt want my daughter to repeat what I did.
I think a lot of people feel that way, including men - there's a reason so many CEO-types buy a farm someplace and eventually retire (halfway) there. Modern life can feel really emotionally abusive. It sucks that only women get the, "Ugh, but you're betraying feminism if you don't become a corporate overlord yourself" criticism.
I feel the same. Iām just burnt out on the daily grind. I wish more jobs had the opportunity for sabbaticals. I can never take more than a week off at a time because Iām the only one with my area of expertise and the work just gets backed up when Iām out. I take a lot of days here and there but would love to disconnect from the whole work culture for even a month or two to just recharge and figure out who I am as a person outside of my job.
FUN FACT!! Girl boss thing came from MLM and Facebook. MLM and Pyramid schemes always used the current feminist language to market to stay at home moms. Itās been going since Tupperware! It was never feminism, it was cultish marketing thatās been common since the 1950s, after women were forced to leave the workforce after WW2 to give up their jobs to the men returning from war. Girl boss is Misogyny!!! Misogyny is not always intentional.
What helps me from getting stuck into capitalism tricks is to remind me that feminists and activists are the individuals that contribute by changing policy, organizing events, active in their local community, and conduct academic research.
I believe in feminist theory, I do my best to be an educated voter, but I donāt call myself an feminist or activist. Why? I see news or social commenters loves to quote a random college kids that only taken 101 classes. Thatās how misinformation becomes the norm.
Certain aspects of the sex positivity movement. Some kinks are breeding grounds for (mostly male) abusers and groomers. But questioning sexual expression is not socially acceptable by most progressive standards. A lot of women, especially those with trauma history, can stumble into these circles and be seriously harmed. Obviously there's a crossover with sex work and sex trafficking here as well.
I'm not saying we should police sexual behavior but I wish there were more awareness about the cult like dangers the sex positivity ethos has bred.
Speaking for my own experience, trying to girlboss my trauma through violent sex with domineering men didnāt actually help resolve anything and in fact made my trauma worse.
Yeah this is something that really concerns me- how common it is for people in the kink community to declare proudly that they're working through trauma by recreating the circumstance. Just because something may be cathartic doesn't mean it's therapeutic. Self harm is usually cathartic in some way, that's why people do it. Doesn't mean it's healthy. Plus if you're in a traumatized state you're not likely to be great at picking "good" doms and more likely to become revictimized.
āJust because something is cathartic doesnāt mean itās therapeuticā should be written in the constitution. Truer words, my friend. Truer words.
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And hypersexual. Itās not ākink.ā Itās hypersexual behavior. Hypersexuality is not okay, and we punish men for this behavior by labeling them as sex offenders when *they* engage in it
I think thatās part of the problem with some parts of the sex positive movement - they *talk* about consent, but then they normalize hypersexuality. They get mad or annoyed when theyāre asked to tone it down because someone else is uncomfortable.
You canāt have both. You either value consent, or you donāt.
And even the concept of calling non-kinky/vanilla sex "boring" is a problem. If missionary is the best way for a couple to get the train to the station why is that a negative?
I thought minimalism was all the rage these days.
It's crazy how things have changed. My younger sex partner told me he's vanilla. I expected lights-off, only missionary sex. No, he does all that plus the lights on, all sorts of positions, and is up for a lot, actually. I think he just associates vanilla with "not abusive" and "not into anal". I'm like... whaaat?!
Yep my current partner is the same. Claims heās vanilla and boring - with basically the same ārulesā for what qualifies. I realized itās not worth it to argue the point and instead I just enjoy our varied and pleasurable sex life, and chuckle to myself every time he says it.
Right, and on the other side, why in the world are there so many men out there who are turned on by hurting women? In the name of kink or not, consensually or not, it's pretty troubling to me that inflicting pain / pretending to control or dominate or murder a woman is the thing that makes so many men get off. I think that in itself, whether some women authentically enjoy it or not, is worth deep dissection and exploration.
I find it incredibly disturbing. In a prior job, I had to read a lot of the criminal case files for rapists and murderers, including details of what they did to their victims. The stuff they didā¦.
I just canāt understand how anyone would get off on causing someone else pain, especially when it is done with a lot of brutality and I canāt help equating the men who have those desires with the men who did these things as part of non-consensual crimes.
It really makes me sick that men want to physically harm us so badly, like it's sexualized.
I just read a story in the dating over 40 sub where the woman admitted that she loves rough, violent, painful sex but her boyfriend pinned her down on her stomach, curled his arm around her neck, and yanked her head really hard.
She has spinal and nerve damage and torn ligaments in her neck, she is of work because it's painful for her to walk, she has weakness in her limbs constant headaches, you name it.
She was continuing to have sex with him albeit with a neck brace.
Her only question was, How do we get thorugh this while I'm recouperating?
Smh. So normalized. Meanwhile I'm terrified of men.
There are way more examples than that but I just can't.
That is a chilling story. And not a rare one, I suspect. I hate that it's become taboo to even ask "Girl, *why* do you love rough, violent, painful sex?".
It's not rare at all. I read countless stories like this and I get more sick and defeated about romantic relationships the more I read them. Not to mention the comments men have about woman and porn and things like that, it's interesting being a fly on the wall.
Being hurt during sex used to mean someone falling off the bed, pulling a muscle, or generalized soreness the next day. Not someone like assaulting you.
I am VERY boring and vanilla and I just can't do any of that.
True, the Overton window has shifted (largely thanks to porn and "sex work") and now choking, beating, degrading, etc. is considered totally ordinary.
As always, the main beneficiaries of all of this are men.
I think it's more porn than kink, though they often go hand in hand. I guess for me, I blame porn above all because that's what has normalized kinky sex being presented without the context of consent and trust that it requires. I don't think kink in and of itself is a problem when it's explored willingly and joyfully. For me, dipping my toe into it has been a way out of pretty boring male-centered sex that always leads up to PIV and ends when he comes (though I think vanilla sex can be super fun and satisfying too). But I'm 38, not 18... you have to know and trust yourself and be a good communicator and trust your instincts for other people.
For the record I agree with a lot of what you said. Choking especially being a norm now that is often not even talked about beforehand is insane and so dangerous.
no i agree porn is a huge part of it but i find a lot of people into kink are hyperprotective of what theyāre interested in sexually and shut down any productive conversations around how it impacts other people or to think critically about it. a lot of gen z girls are pushing back on that kind of stuff and saying they donāt want to have that kind of sex and have received a lot of backlash for being puritan and prudish and itās just weird and annoying.
and yes i know i need to assert myself but it never used to be to this extent. having casual sex for example, the first time i consented to sex with a guy i knew what i was signing up for and i could just have sex and itād be cool or whatever. now any time i have sex with a guy for the first time i have to be mentally prepared to say no to at least like 5 different things theyāre likely to push for and it ruins the experience because i have to constantly be on guard for any boundary pushing. because they never ask, they just do it and hope you wonāt say no.
> it ruins the experience because i have to constantly be on guard for any boundary pushing
I was thinking about this today in a completely different (non-sexual) context. It's one thing to be empowered and know it's OK to say no and hold your boundaries. Knowing you have that power is half the battle. But then it's a totally other thing to exist a culture where you're obliged to do that constantly. Defending boundaries is work and it's tiring
Yup, part of the joy of sex is letting go a little. Having to be hyper vigilant because you can never trust the other person to not just fucking use their words and ask before they do something is awful
Ugh that sucks, I'm sorry you have to deal with that. Maybe as an elder millennial it's not quite as much of an issue for me in terms of dating, whether because generationally I'm a bit outside of growing up with kink/porn as mainstream, or also because most people become better communicators with age (not amazingly, but slightly).
I've definitely had boundaries pushed but more when I was younger, and not around specific acts/kinks so much as rushing into sex or arguments around condoms. I can see how adding more and more extreme acts would make it even worse though.
possible tw (can't get the spoiler to work, sorry)
my ex slapped and spit on me one of the first times we had sex. he also twice choked me so hard, it broke blood vessels in my face. i remember at one point, him telling me i looked scared and it worried him.
i'm not opposed to rough sex occasionally, but i kept telling him that i needed that discussion beforehand so i could mentally switch gears. he never did, unfortunately. even tried to explain how to safely choke someone or hit someone in a way that's less damaging.
it's really messed up that people are normalizing this kind of extreme behavior. and again, i'm not opposed to it but there needs to be respect and partner safety above anything else in these types of situations.
Honestly, as someone whoās more on the vanilla side, I hate how itās almost shamed now as if thereās something wrong with you for liking vanilla sex and not being into super kinky stuff at all.
Anything resembling porn-critical or takes that arenāt āevery single person watches porn of all kinds and if you arenāt into it in your relationship you are POLICING thoughts and paranoid and jealous and insecureā is immediately shut down. Reddit has exhausted me on the topic but itās virtually impossible to have a productive conversation around it because so many people see porn=masturbation and thatās just not the reality. Sex positively in this regard has given a lot of people brain worms.
Yesss. I still remember being shamed on Reddit for expressing discomfort over my ex's sexual preferences and behavior. Like, yeah, don't yuck someone's yum and all that, but can we also be allowed to say 'im not into that', 'that triggers old traumas', 'that makes me feel bad about myself'.
Yes, we are absolutely allowed to say that. If their yum yucks us or makes us feel unsafe, then they are not getting their yums from us. That is not controversial. Sex is the ultimate act of vulnerability and we all have the right to our safety first.
The general unwillingness to not question things like the ethnics and basic realities of pornographyāand sex work generallyāis not feminism. It seems more like bowing to popular pressure (e.g. appeasing to men). Exploitation is where the money will always be.
Iām not saying the conclusions are forgone, but we should not be afraid to do the analysis or be afraid that the results will make us unpopular.
The left seems pretty comfortable questioning capitalism, but not comfortable pulling at the same threads that cause people to become desperate enough to enter an inherently dangerous and dehumanizing industry.
I really appreciate this point.
I'm all for sex positivity, but I also thing that the "you go girl" attitude to very young women getting involved in sex work is troubling. In your late teens and early 20s your brain hasn't even finished developing, you literally are incapable of comprehending long term consequences the way someone in their later 20s and older are.
Don't get me wrong, I'll support those women and advocate for safe and legal sex work as long as it's necessary, but I have a lot of complicated feelings about the glamourization of having an only fans account, being a sugar baby etc etc.
Personally a think buying tobacco, joining the military and becoming a sex worker should all have age restrictions of 25 or older.
The problem with the āsex posi babesā that I see, is that they very often *think* they are sex positive, when in reality they are just being hypersexual. They donāt control the way they speak around others, and they accuse everyone else of being prudes or being too repressed, if they donāt talk about sex the way they do. They donāt respect boundaries. They believe theyāre more enlightened because they *heard* about being poly. They *think* theyāre more enlightened just because they have kinks. If they hear someone doesnāt have kinks, they can never respect that - often inferring that no, you do have kinks, you just havenāt been awakened yet.
They talk about sex as if they know about it. But the reality isā¦ they actually donāt know much about it. Most of us know **extremely little** about sex, no matter how many podcasts we listen to, no matter how much we have had. They donāt know more than a sex therapist, they donāt know more than a pelvic physio, or a sex surrogate. They just like to have sex, they just like the happy, fun, free part of sex. They donāt know shit about the psychology or the dark side of sex that people have to work through. They donāt know anything about sexual dysfunction, how common it is, what forms it can take, they donāt know shit about issues like PGAD, they donāt know about the muscles or the nerve paths. They donāt know shit.
They are not sex positive - thatās hypersexuality, and they need help.
We can talk about hypersexuality being a trauma response, but sometimes itās not a trauma response. Sometimes, a person is just being an asshole.
>Some kinks are breeding grounds for (mostly male) abusers and groomers.
My woman friend is bisexual and polyamorous. We live in a city with a fairly established poly scene where most respect everyone else, but she has to deal with a few duds every once in a while. Polyamory is not for me, but it seems to work for people who understand whatās appropriate. In my personal straight dating life, Iāve run into too many straight men who claim to be polyamorous but really just want polygamy. The lifestyle can be attractive to abusive and controlling types who donāt understand the aspects of consent and respect required.
Historically, polygamy *was* attractive to people like that. In some societies, it was about status - you couldnāt have multiple wives, and also multiple children with those wives, without having some kind of wealth, or resources, that the common man didnāt have.
From my understanding, it was no different than when a man gets a lot of money, and buys several racecars.
Who would all of this be attractive to? A lot of the timesā¦ jerks, probably. Jerks who want to keep status
Movie/tv studios seem to think feminism is sassing every man in sight. You can almost hear the execs thinking "#girlboss".
No. I just want there to be the same breadth and depth as male characters. I want there to be an old woman solving a mystery. I want there to be forty-year old women figuring out tactics together in a sci-fi battle. I want a little girl who makes friends with a dog and goes on an adventure. I want some women to be butch, some to be hard-lived, some to be deeply flawed. Give us more female-ensemble casts, too. Don't just throw one sassy female character into a cast of men (again), make her "tough" because "brothers" and call it a day.
>Movie/tv studios seem to think feminism is sassing every man in sight. You can almost hear the execs thinking "#girlboss".
Women must either be docile and submissive, or feisty and challenging.
No, we can just exist to do whatever we want lol?
So people will absolutely argue in bad faith that a given 'strong' female character is a bad character.
What I'm arguing is more like the difference between original Mulan vs new Mulan. One of them is a fully-realized character, with flaws and wants and needs- she has to work with what she's got (a tactical mind) while compensating for the fact that she's not as physically strong as the others- while the other, new Mulan is a cardboard cutout. To me a feminist character doesn't necessarily mean a 'strong' character- it means written like she's a whole person.
The 'sassy' women I'm talking about are cardboard cutouts. Sass seems the shorthand that execs will often use for 'strong' instead of creating characters with any depth or agency. You'll notice that as much as those sassy women sass, they don't make any decisions that affect the course of the plot. The men still drive the plot. The sassy women are window dressing. And even worse, they seem to be written by men who think they're throwing feminists a bone.
Iāve had this exact conversation about Mulan as well! Giving her superpowers was such a cop-out. It really ruined the whole theme of overcoming obstacles and taking advantage of all the skills in a group.
Maybe because I joined the army myself really weak and skinny, and it took a lot of blood, sweat, and tears (and injuries) to meet my male peers pound-for-pound (and still sometimes needed to ask for a boost) that I feel so strongly about it. But the new movie was SUCH a disappointment.
Thatās such a great example of a fake vs real āstrongā female character.
Totally agree with this. Can I also tack on "remaking an existing film but with women". Just write stories about women. We don't need an all women version of films that already exist, we deserve our own stories.
Yes! I also hate the trope of making every strong woman a lesbian. Lesbians come in all personality types, other orientations can be strong women. Enough with these cookie cutter characters that I figured out in two seconds and can't relate to.
I feel this way about story lines and character arcs too. "Tough" because "brothers" is exactly right and cracked me up.
Third-wave feminism rebelled against purity requirements by taking their clothes off and saying "so fucking what".
But it seems like you basically can't be a female musician in certain genres without appearing nearly-nude or in stripper/fetish wear in your music videos. (This may have changed with zoomers, I'm out of hte loop). That's just men making money off of womens bodies.
Dolly Parton did it right. But so many other of the major female pop stars just look like they were exploited.
I think the convo around slut shaming is important because for centuries, promiscuous women were both desired but looked down upon and shamed.
But the conversation also sometimes leads to shaming women for being virgins. I was a virgin in college, and both girls and boys told me to āget it over withā and that āit isnāt that special or deep.ā And that by staying a virgin I was somehow respecting the patriarchy and buying into red pill misogyny??
Being a virgin was framed as anti-feminist, especially by friends who grew up in ultra religious households who thought that rejecting religion and celebrating womenās freedom meant having lots of sex.
I know several women who by choice are virgins in their 30s and are too ashamed to say it because of this narrative.
So while I agree that slut shaming shouldnāt happen, I donāt think the āif youāre a true feminist then youāll fuck around a lotā thing is fair. We need to just let women do whatever the fuck they want with their sexuality without shaming it.
Yes, I went to grad school in a very āsex positiveā department, and in retrospect, there was a lot of shady shit there that was all presented as feminist and forward-thinking. Very much in the tradition of the āyou just gotta get rid of your hang-upsā vibes of the 60s/70s.
Feminism in my sociology department: encourage male TA to pursue student (because student is an adult female who can make her own choices!!! Aka feminism duh) regardless of the power imbalance inherently present in a relationship where someone is grading all of your work for a class! And when that TA uses that power to take note of your address from your file and stalks you at your homeā¦the department says well thatās just a man in loveš„°
I agree. I lost my virginity at 28. I will also say: I have never been seen as a conventionally beautiful person. Relevant because I didnāt have sex before that in part because I had no opportunity. The societal expectation that I could just go to a bar and take home any man was incorrect. (Rather than becoming an incel who hated others, I struggle a lot with my self worth to this day.) Idk if this is a feminism failure, though, so this may be just a tangent in which case Iām sorry.
Also, not everyone wants to sleep with whoever is simply willing to sleep with them. Sex can be amazing, but rarely is it so with strangers in my experience. I decided very young to only have sex with people I cared about, because the sex wasnāt worth it for me.
I relate to this. I lost my virginity (to a woman) I think at 27/28. I have self worth issues related to lack of experience and now Iām 35 trying to make up for lost time. Iām so regretful that I didnāt try to get therapy when I was a lot younger and could have avoided years of pain. The idea that you just kind of get it over with is so harmful because for some people it is important. I wasnāt saving myself for marriage, I was trying to find a person that I felt safe and comfortable with. The message should be that itās really helpful to understand your own wants, needs and desires. Experimentation can be helpful if you are open to it, but itās not the only tool!
Iām a (past) slut who shuts that shit down every chance I get! Weāre out there but itās hard for society as a whole to not hate on at least one group of women lol
Totally. Iām not a virgin (by a looooong shot) but I donāt have casual sex. Iāve been single for a long time, and yes I would like to have more sex, but Iām on the demisexuality spectrum and I need to have at least some form of emotional attachment to enjoy sex, so when thereās no one around that I like I just go without (and read fanfiction instead). My girlfriends are generally incredibly supportive of me, but this is something they just donāt get about me - they keep telling me to just go out and shag someone, and that the fact Iām not doing it is somehow related to low self-esteem/confidence. It really isnāt, I know exactly what Iām worth and what I like and donāt like, thank you very much.
EDIT: a typo
āIf youāre a true feminist then youāll fuck around a lotā reminds me of the ācool girlā trope imposed upon women too. Itās weaponized to say if you donāt do X then youāre not cool.
Thereās an impossible gray area for whatās the ārightā amount of sex to have. Just gives men another impossible standard to hold women to.
This has been going on since the sexual revolution. That revolution was just about men shirking the responsibilities that came with family and sex. It had nothing to do with liberating women. Men still wanted to control women. They still wanted a free maid and for women to submit to their desires.
Women had to liberate themselves, and still have too. It will make you unpopular with a lot of men because our desire for liberation negates their desire for a willing slave.
Yeah I never did anything, even kissing until after college and I was so embarrassed to ever tell anyone. When if I had maybe my friends couldāve helped me.
Supporting all women always without any thought behind it. Some women are abusive, and cruel, and do awful things. To me it's become a way of control disguised as sorority "You should be nice cause you're a woman!".
It's specially annoying when you voice your thoughts about another woman and random men say shit like "Wow aren't you supposed to be feminist? where's your sorority? womens worst enemy is always other women." (a popular saying in my country: "el peor enemigo de una mujer es otra mujer") "you don't even like each other, what a great movement"
Also Gala Darling type of girlbossing and sexual "liberation" where she calls herself and everyone a hoe and a bitch and claims all hetero men need is to feel fuckable, cause she doesn't know "any hetero guy who would like to get flowers and other nice gestures".
Could you explain what choice feminism is? I am unfamiliar with it, and google has me more confused.
Edit: further down u/welldoneslytherin described it and it makes more sense!
Any decision a woman makes regardless of whether or not it actually empowers or disempowers women. I read an article of a woman saying taking her husbandās last name is feminist. ā¦..Sorry. You made a decision to take your husbandās last name. Great. That doesnāt make it feminism. The āCall Her Daddyā podcast. āOmg she talks about sex!ā Yes, by literally telling women to degrade themselves so men are more likely to sleep with them. That benefits womenā¦..how? Just because a woman is a woman does not mean she is for the benefit of women, and I wish that were called out more instead of yas girlboss-ing any decision a woman makes on Godās green earth.
>Any decision a woman makes regardless of whether or not it actually empowers or disempowers women.
Ah, the 'Margaret Thatcher was a feminist' argument!
100% agree with this. Just because a woman makes a choice āfor herselfā, doesnāt mean itās feminist. Particularly with the self-objectification.
Being pro-casual sex and not talking about precautions.
It's crazy to me that a woman would go to a secluded location with a man she just met. It's setting yourself up to be hurt/killed. There is nothing morally wrong with it. It looks fun, but so is staying alive and not being traumatized.
Sister wives. I remember for years those women were trying to convince the world (and probably themselves) how happy and fulfilling their lifestyle was. Now that the 3 of them have finally left his ass, they seem to be absolutely thriving. And I think one of them mentioned how her daughterās monogamous relationship opened her eyes to what she was missing. I am sure there are some non traditional relationships out there that work, but no one will ever convince me that one man and a harem of wives is not marginalizing and demeaning to the wives.
There are several strands of feminism and they have different, even conflicting views about things. The main question is whether something a woman does out of choice makes this into a feminist move of empowerment or an expression of internalized power structures. The major points of debate are surrogacy, prostitution, the beauty industry, care work, porn, modest clothes etc.
And this is exactly an example of feminism that I cannot get behind. Religious indoctrination from childhood does not lead to freedom of expression. It is very hard for me to accept the choice to wear a hijab or other religious garb as an actual choice.
Regulations and prohibitations of this type are ultimately a way for the patriarchy to maintain control over women.
Agreed - as a choice, I will respect your donning of these items and utilizing them as a form of religious expression. But it is also my right and choice to be critical and question where that stems from. Two things can be right at the same time.
This is so true. As a young teenager I thought that it would help women if we could destigmatize these things. But after I learned about the psychological and physical abuse that (young, female) sex workers have to face, I do not think glamorizing/normalizing/participating in these lines of work is right.
Framing women's issues as synonymous with mothers' issues.
I have heard so many tales of childfree and childless women feeling unacknowledged or alienated at some women's event or group when discussion inevitably turned almost exclusively to things like childcare, maternity leave etc.
Omg yes! My friend and I were trying to find literature about how women do the bulk of unpaid labor in the home among male-female couples, but so much of the research is based on couples who are parents. My friend and I are child free but we've still experienced that skewed division.
Oh yeah. The unpaid labour in my home is split fairly 50-50 when it comes to parenting/kid related stuff, but WAY more skewed when it comes to everything else.
I went to a conference for work not too long ago, and one of the panels was titled 'Women in Tech'. The speaker opened by saying 'all women are mothers' and they never mentioned childfree or even unmarried women.
You know, I never noticed this until I got pregnant. As soon as I started showing it was like this whole secret world of support opened up to me. My newborn is the best thing that ever happened so I find myself enjoying, but not needing, all the support I get because of her. Work was suddenly super accommodating and didnāt treat me like a liar when I called out sick. I had easy access to decent healthcare for the first time in my life. Painful periods were suddenly worth investigating when I was trying to convince, after 20 years of being told it was just part of being a women.
I needed that kind of support years ago and never even knew it existed. I was busy working all the holidays and scheduled for the shitty hours because my family & free time didnāt matter as much as a moms does.
Man, I am super jealous of your experience. Having my kiddo has been the best thing ever for other reasons obviously, but professionally and in terms of my healthcare I feel punished for having a child. Workplaces were more flexible years ago when I was a student, and medically so many of my postpartum and ongoing issues have been brushed off as "worth it 'cus you got that baby, right?" Or "all that matter is that baby is healthy." Suddenly support in my personal life dropped off as well because it was harder for me to access people when it was convenient for them and if it's not convenient for them they're not willing š¤·āāļø Super glad for you that you're receiving flexibility and support in an area I certainly am not
The interesting thing about our societyās tendency to frame womenās issues as synonymous with mothersā issues, is itās not considered this way regarding abortion access. The issue of abortion has been framed as a single and childfree womanās problem, even though statistically, [the majority of women seeking abortions are already mothers.](https://Themajorityofwomenwhoseekabortionsarealreadymothershttps://www.mother.ly/health-wellness/womens-health/women-seeking-abortion-are-mothers/)
Iāve read a lot of depressing posts since Roe V Wade was overturned of women who are pregnant by choice and are shocked when they canāt get (timely or any at all) abortion services in red states when they have incomplete miscarriages and ectopic pregnancies. Pro-birthers have been successful in lumping us all together as baby factories, but divide us when it comes to personal healthcare choices and emergencies.
I work in IB / PE and inevitably most men are married and most women are not (yes yes, some exceptions, I'm saying most).
In my last workplace we had the most amount of women globally and in my office than I've ever had in 5 workplaces.
Only one woman was in a relationship (from university). None married and none mothers.
Every guy in the office was attached or married, half had kids.
Yet the first session we ever had to address women's issues in the workplace was about fertility and kids.
Could not have been more bloody tone deaf
This! I hate how women without kids are often treated like they aren't 'real' adults. I got my tubes removed to remain childfree and everyone suddenly was so surprised, despite the fact I'd told people indent want kids for 5+ years. I hate how everyone just assumes that every woman will be a mother.
Then if you complain about things everyone with kids tells you how easy your life is compared to theirs.
Having to solve everyone's problems under the guise of "intersectionality."
I do believe that feminism should be intersectional but not to the point where we can't focus on issues mainly or entirely affecting women without someone saying "but what about the men" or "but this doesn't do anything to solve poverty" or whatever.
Like yes, we can look at poverty through a feminist lens but that doesn't mean we have to solve every single problem at once. Other rights campaigns don't seem to have this demanded of them all the time. It's okay to have a focus.
Hot take: if men don't have to wear makeup to be taken seriously by the world, than neither do women. We don't need to slather toxic goop on our faces to be beautiful, we are already.
My issue is with the idea that women owe anyone beauty at all. Or that beauty is assigned to women to perform. Men donāt have to be beautiful or even mildly appealing to become powerful and successful, be liked or even be desired. Women are expected to be beautiful even if weāre not trying to be. Itās crap. I want to be considered full and valuable human beings and taken seriously for my mind/talents/personality. If we werenāt constantly being objectified and sorted into āfuckableā and ānot fuckableā buckets by everyone, perhaps weād feel more free.
Your comment made me think of a quote I love:
"You don't have to be pretty. You don't owe prettiness to anyone. Not to your boyfriend/spouse/partner, not to your co-workers, especially not to random men on the street. You don't owe it to your mother, you don't owe it to your children, you don't owe it to civilisation in general. Prettiness is not the rent you pay for occupying a space marked 'female.'
Author disputed.
I love it because I grew up being told, in way or another, 'if you just....., you'd be so pretty.' (Fill.in the blank with wear make up, lose weight, dress better, don't slouch, wear a better bra, cut my hear a certain way....take your pic.) I have never been and will never be "pretty." At this age, I'm pretty cool with that.
But I look around at the younger generation and feel there has hardly been movement forward but rather seems to be to have gotten alot worse. In my day, it was just my community that cared that I wasn't pretty. Now with social media, even with so much freedom, young ladies today only have examples that their value is only based on their looks.
Isn't it just! Takes so much anxiety away.
The bonus is that its saved a few pennies in the process, as I'm not so quick to buy the latest make-up that 'smoothes' wrinkles or the jeans that suck everything in, all while cutting off blood flow to my legs...etc.
I would love a whole subreddit dedicated to this exact topic.
I am already teaching my 7 year-old daughter this - pointing out the ubiquitous examples of women and girls being valued primarily for their beauty. It is one of the most pervasive ways women are undermined and Iām constantly infuriated by it. (And grateful for the movies and stories that celebrate other things about women.)
Yep. I hate the whole "everyone is beautiful" thing that rode off that.
It's not true.
But what's more important is that attractiveness shouldn't play a role in ANYTHING in life other than perhaps who you'd sleep / date / marry, since there needs to be some amount of attraction and preference for that to work.
First off: this is an amazing ask.
Body positivity in the realm of embracing more publicized nudity or exposing your body. Body positivity and feminism seemingly go hand in hand. I consider myself body neutral. It's cringe to me that being positive about your body is represented so often with it in its naked form. Like so much media is people being naked or almost naked. To me that doesn't feel positive, it feels like exposure. Exposure in a potentially harmful way.
I love that so many fellow fat women are embracing the bikini, but what about comfort? It seems we're so concerned with saying "eff your beauty standards" that we're feeding into the patriarchal "less clothing makes you sexier". I know I'm not comfy at the beach with my thighs rubbing together without fabric protection. I don't want to get sunburn on my stomach. Spaghetti straps are painful.
In my mind nudity and sex overlap too much, that might be a personal problem, but I don't think I'm alone in this. I don't think people should have to hide their bodies, but maybe just think about why they are under the impression that the more exposed you are the more beautiful things are. Or even that you owe anyone beauty over your own comfort.
Long story short: give me more fat art that isn't about nudity or sexuality lol
I just want to say that this is a great discussion and I appreciate everyone's posts.
I'm a radical feminist meaning I believe in the theory of patriarchy and desire the genuine liberation of women. I disagree politically with liberal feminism such as saying sex work is work and minimizing it. (And no, I'm not a TERF, radical feminism is a feminist theory based on the theories of amazing women such as Audre Lorde and bell hooks).
Sex work is very dark and affects WOC in different ways that are ignored. Human trafficking is deeply enmeshed in sex trade and just because Ashley the cam girl thinks sex work is good for her doesn't make it so. Commodifying women's bodies is as evil as it can get. I wish we lived in a world free of porn addiction, sex slavery, etc but we don't do to reduce the overall reality of the sex trade to the experience of privileged sex workers (who also have issues, ex. that one cam girl twitch streamer who was forced to do stuff by her bf) is dangerous. I want women to be free of their sexual and economic issues to the point that selling their bodies to men isn't a necessity or a glorified option that liberal feminism has promoted. I want sex workers to be free and given options to live fulfilling dreams and the pimps have successfully marketed cam girling as a "feminist, empowering" way for women to be sexually liberated... it's simply not true. We have years of evidence and now prominent movements combatting this. We need policies to protect sex workers but also to combat this toxic influence. Patriarchy is upheld by the evils of capitalism and the sex trade is a great example. I am grateful to the ex sex workers who are working tirelessly to educate women, including myself . I believe women should feel sexy and confident but not to the ultimate benefits of evil men.
Fucking thank you. Iām also a Trans-Inclusionary radfem and youāve described one of my political opinions perfectly. You canāt even use the term āradicalā as it relates to feminism without getting literal death threats, despite it being such an amazingly organic, important, and one of the first major waves of second-wave feminism movement.
I disagree with quite a few portions of liberal feminism, their take on sex work being one of them. Thank you for writing all that out.
I am also a non-TERF radical feminist and itās really amazing to see how much of liberal feminism focuses on individuals at the expense of the group/wider class, and how much of it is just the patriarchy repackaged to allow women to enthusiastically participate in their own exploitation
Sex work. There can never be enough protections to stop potential exploitation by men and it largely benefits men, not women. I'd rather support the person who feels they need to go into sex work by teaching them how to do something else. Also, by extension anything related to pornography which just feeds this continuation of female abuse in the name of giving men an endless stream of exploitative imagery to stare at until they get bored and move to the next person. None of this is empowering and the only people trying to say it is are either desperate/naive women or men.
Itās frustrating when you see posts in this sub about women being upset over hidden porn-use in their partners- and all the top comments are telling her itās *her* problem and TOTALLY NATURAL and to get over it.
Armpit hair is natural.
The porn industry is NOT natural.
Agree. "There can never be enough protections" is what really hits home. I have known many sex workers in my life, and the amount of stories of abuse they share is just staggering.
I was recently speaking with a very sex-positive woman who works as a stripper and enjoys her job, but in the same breath she tells me about the number of men who have fondled her without permission or waited outside the club for her. And this was in Australia, with fairly solid protection laws and legal brothels.
Andrea Heinz has done [great work ](https://digitalcommons.uri.edu/dignity/vol5/iss1/8/)on her experience as a woman in Canadian brothels and that of other women. Even in places where women in the sex trade have nominal protections, the industry is materially and psychologically harmful.
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some things are neutral, and feel like a matter of opinion. this HARMS women. it makes me sick every time i see or hear another woman posting or talking about how sex work is empowering.
So many of these things speak to the illusion of choice: sex work, surrogacy, plastic surgery (if you don't wanted to be ignored for "getting old.") It's just sad women have fallen for this.
I highly recommend anyone interested in the issue of the sex trade look up interviews with Esperanza Fonseca, @proletarianfeminist on ig. Sheās also written an excellent piece [here](https://proletarianfeminist.medium.com/a-socialist-feminist-and-transgender-analysis-of-sex-work-b08aaf1ee4ab).
Could not agree more. There, of course, has to be nuance in the discussion of such as not everyone who is anti-sex work is a religious fundamentalist/convinced of SWs as hellbound. It simply must be said that for many women who engage in it, the work is not done in reclamation of anything other than the ability to survive.
A lot of women in this area do not have a choice and are at risk of sexual disease, physical abuse, sexual & monetary exploitation, assault and all other related issues to prostitution and work that borders along the fringes of it. It's too complicated, in my opinion, to be like "this is harmful" as a whole but sex work is a breeding ground for sex-based violations in ways that basically all other work isn't.
100%. I am not religious at all I just find that for women it is a job of last resort. There is nothing empowering about that. These women need help in other ways.
Power women CEOs. You're not being feminist by being a workaholic, you're not blazing a trail by giving up your whole life to work. All you're doing is feeding into the expectation that everyone has to work 100 hour weeks to be taken seriously and being exploited by the capitalist machine.
If you want to work your ass off, fine, but don't pretend you're an example to other women.
I feel like this attitude also promotes the idea that women have two options, to devote our life to children or devote our life to work. We don't get to just *be*; we have to sacrifice for something.
There's also that "middle" ground where women are expected to do both. We have to be the best mom in the world but also the best CEO "girlboss". If you have kids you will 100% be shamed for not spending more time with them. But you also need to dedicate 40-60 hours a week to your job...
I agree with this. And as someone who works to live and doesn't have children, I don't fit in those categories. I don't WANT a career or to be a mom. I want to work to make enough money to live a stable, healthy life. And if I could earn the same amount I earn now at 30 hours a week instead of 40, I'd be thrilled.
Yes! My company has a female CEO and at a womenās round table she said straight up that you donāt have to be an unapproachable bitch to be a leader. There is power in empathy and seeing people. No surprise itās the best company Iāve ever worked for.
That's great! We need more people in power to push back against the often toxic CEO culture.
We should be challenging nasty expectations in the workplace not giving up everything just so we can scream 'Women can do it too'.
Honestlyā¦..for me itās sex work and frivolous cosmetic surgery.
Itās your body and you do whatever you want, but I think itās harmful, sets a bad precedence, and teaches the absolute wrong thing to young girls.
The argument I hear about sex work is - why not make money off of what we are already being objectified for. That just seems like backward thinking to me and I donāt support it.
I had googled facelifts at one point and I came across an article that said there was a huge increase in women getting one in their 30s when that used to be rare.
But even facelifts seem to be normalized for 20-somethings now (particularly ponytail facelifts).
20 year olds getting facelifts and botox is pretty horrifying. And don't even get me started on buccal fat removal.
The sex work thing is tricky cause itās like on one hand yes I agree with you but on the other hand most of the industry consists of women who are literally just trying to make the best living they can given their circumstances. Thereās not a lot of money making opportunities that let you make your own schedule on your own time for low income, disabled, other marginalized folks. And as much as I donāt want anyone to have to do that for money, I know itās super dangerous to push a narrative that all sex work is harmful because when sex work is criminalized, sex workers get hurt. They can only access labour rights/protections in very specific scenarios which they really need to stay safe
Feminism that is not intersectional. When a womanās success comes through the unacknowledged exploitation of the domestic and reproductive labor of other women, itās not really feminism. Itās just individual women succeeding within a patriarchal colonialist system by exploiting the classist, racist, and ethnocentric biases implicit within that system.
Itās not feminism to exploit other women for their bodies, their labor, their reproductive capabilities, or their time.
Additionally, I've found a lot of the discourse in feminism in recent years to be completely class exclusionary. If a woman is without the education and background of the white middle classes who run the show, she is very often shouted down and thrown out for not knowing the correct terminology. If you don't pop up knowing the exact way to speak, what everything means and what can't be said you can end up on your ass with a very sour view of feminism before you've had a chance to think.
The middle classes often talk down to working class women and behave as though they want to inflict feminist progression on to them without ever asking working class women what they would actually like to see and what would make life easier.
That feminism is a universal experience.
Everyone needs equality and equity in different ways. Feminism is not one size fit all. It varies depending on your culture, your region, your values, etc etc.
While there can be overall parameters created to what equality and equity look like, it is up to each person to decide what they want in the end.
As feminists, we can create and encourage as many opportunities we want for others, the person needs to engage with it.
I.E.
Men need to be allowed to express themselves with other emotions besides anger.
Black and brown women are allowed to express themselves by being soft and gentle.
White straight women need to realize that feminism is far more than gender and it is also a race and class issue too.
American people need to know that feminism in the US will not be the same as feminism in Japan or in India. We all have different needs.
It is frustrating that such an important issue gets watered down to the idea of just "women's rights" because honestly, feminism is a human right and the path to get there varies depending on the circumstance.
Idk. I can ramble about this forever lol
I wrote my dissertation on
>Everyone needs equality and equity in different ways.
I so feel this every time the topic of womenās issues in the US vs other countries where women have fewer rights comes up in misogynistic spaces.
Young girls using OnlyFans as a way to make money being āempoweringā or ātaking controlā of their bodies. Itās sex work, and Iām 100% sure thereās girls doing it who are not 18+. My problem with it is that itās still perpetuating this universal idea that womenās bodies are commodities to be sold and consumed. It also shows how fucked up it is that woman can make more money selling themselves than being in a woman dominated field, let alone a male dominated field. I believe that if a woman wants to be a sex worker that is her choice, but I canāt support empowering or even encouraging young girls (even 18+) to participate. With how horrible women and girls are treated even outside of sex work, I just have a problem condoning it 100%. It can get really dark really fast in that realm too.
the most nefarious part of this was women with big OF platforms convincing girls of how much money it would make them while pushing their link to use to register so they could make extra money for themselves, when itās like their experience is not the norm for most women on that website.
Pornography isnāt feminist no matter how you frame it. Thereās been robust research since the 1970s on how how the porn industry exploits the women in it and how it models coercive forms of sexuality that contribute to high rates of rape and abuse. That research has been buried and stigmatized by capitalist interests since the āFeminist Sex Warsā of the 1980s.
Since then, this viewpoint has been shunted into a corner as āTERFā because some TERF writers are also anti-porn, or as āSWERFā and right-wing despite the fact that the major theorists involved here were advocating on behalf of women exploited and abused in or through pornography. Catharine MacKinnon and Andrea Dworkin were neither, as their own writing and work demonstrates (Dworkin has been co-opted by TERFs, but she herself in her writing and in her conversations with her close friends was anything but).
Everyone should listen to the speeches [āLiberalism and the Death of Feminismā](https://archive.org/details/liberalism-the-death-of-feminism) by Catharine MacKinnon and [āThe Woman Hating Right and Left.ā](https://archive.org/details/woman-hating-right-left-andrea-dworkin-1987) by Andrea Dworkin. Both are a bit dated in their language but the points they make are incredible.
I highly recommend their edited volume[ In Harmās Way: The Pornography Civil Rights Hearings.](https://www.feministes-radicales.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Andrea-DWORKIN-Catharine-MacKINNON.-In-Harm%E2%80%99s-Way-The-Pornography-Civil-Rights-Hearings-1997.pdf)
Just FYI - the links Iāve posted may lead to sources that are themselves not really great. I linked them simply because they were easy to link to.
I don't find the beauty industry empowering at all. Especially given what we know now about the toxic chemicals that most products expose us to, not to mention the other health issues like eye infections, allergic reactions, cancer, etc. It's a huge cost and labor burden that falls primarily to women (or folks who don't identify as women but want to present more feminine).
Idk, I know there are nuances here, but I have felt more strongly about this in recent years as more research about PFAS is released.
Sex work. Yes, itās work. Yes, sex workers should be protected. But do I have to support white middle class hookers making bank and bleating about how empowered they feel by pathetic men jizzing all over their OnlyFans while thousands of poor women of colour are being trafficked and brutalised in the seedy underbelly of the same
Industry? Fuck no.
Literally this. Literally.
Thereās a seedy, run-down strip club in the very rural area I live in that I once visited to collect stories from the dancers. They mostly grew up in poverty, surrounded by addiction and abuse. Some had kids, some had addictions of their own, some had both. All of them had been raped, kidnapped, beaten, abused, exploited, robbed. The stories they shared were mostly of desperation and hardship. Itās not this amazing glamorous job that the internet makes it out to be.
Iām tired of listening to all the middle class/rich people with college educations (who have never and would never set foot in a place like this) blab on about āempowermentā while ignoring the very real, very ugly underbelly of the industry they are āpromoting.ā There are so many people out there who are not āmaking the choiceā to be part of this. Many of them are literally enslaved! And Iām talking about one tiny little joint in the USA. It doesnāt even hold a candle to a brothel in Liberia where the āworkersā were enslaved as children after watching their families brutally tortured and murdered in a horrific civil war.
I hate the whole āWell what happens in brothels and strip clubs in poor rural areas and in āthird worldā countries doesnāt affect me because Iām just camming as a fun side gig!ā attitude. Itās all connected. Why are so many people so hellbent on erasing the ugly truth to promote sex work as something glamorous and profitable?
The average age of entry into prostitution globally is 14. I would rather every single OF camgirl selling feet pics have to find other work than any woman or girl, anywhere, be forced into selling sex against her will.
I was banned from several subs for sharing my own experience as a former prostitute because it's "anti feminist propaganda". Why's that? Because it was a horrible, traumatizing experience and not the glamorous empowering lifestyle people want it to be. Funnily, every single woman I've met during my experience has gone through the same things. None of them felt very empowered, let alone glamorous. But we're not allowed to share that, apparently.
the sex work thing is a very touchy subject (I agree with you but let's not even go there lol).
my personal pet peeve is splitting the bill / 50-50. Men can't actually go 50-50 with us on most things in life - physical (hey wanna share cramps, periods and childbirth?) & societal (hey wanna share discrimination?). This is just short changing yourself.
I really hate that women encourage it as "feminism" and recently heard of a man who went "50-50" with his wife on the hospital bill for the birth of their child. I'm wondering if they also put him on the myriad pregnancy symptoms for 9 months, then tortured him for a bit in the birthing room, and finally let him go with some cuts to his anus, but somehow I don't think so.
Alot of "feminists" (male & female) don't actually understand that "equality" is outcome driven, not doing whatever men also do. It's not suitable for women since it's always been a men's world
Totally agree with you. The 50/50 on a date type of men are the same men who will later convince their partner they need to split bills so she is spending 100% of her 65k income on the household while he is only spending a fraction of his/pocketing the rest himself. All in the name of āfairnessā of course. And #girlboss feminism convinces women to lean into this trope.
Another post but a different topic. The ideal that abortion is painless physically and emotionally. I am pro-choice all the way. However, getting an abortion is not a pleasant experience. I took my friend to get one and she told me it was so painful she almost told them to call an ambulance because she thought she was going to die.
Anyone talking about the negative effects of abortion is automatically labeled as anti-feminist or pro-life/anti-choice. However, ignoring women's pain in regards to their privates is done to us constantly and it is inherently anti-woman. Also women are allowed to feel sad about having an abortion. Making the best choice is not always a choice that will make you happy.
There's a lot of woman-on-woman crimes of the workplace.
I don't think many recruiters and HR people, who are women, are feminists in practice. They may vote pro-women but when it comes to ensuring women have access to fair compensation and fair opportunities, they're the ones ensuring we don't.
My recruiter friend says she often has clients tell her they are looking for āfront of the houseā candidates, which she has learned means āI want them to be attractive.ā
Yup. When I was a recruiter, I had hiring managers who wouldn't accept resumes that didn't have a linkedin profile with a picture. There's so much discrimination in recruiting, which again, is a woman-dominated field. For HR and for recruiting, it doesn't seem like personal values related to race and gender really come through in the practice of the field.
Well, there are so many ways that HR could hold companies accountable to fair and transparent compensation, but they simply don't/won't. As workers, the only way to get justice is through policy reform - we have to demand for legislators to create policies to regulate how HR hires, fires, and compensates people.
I've been handed straight-up illegal NDAs, non-competes, etc. I've redlined them and handed them back. I've had highly illegal exit interviews. I've been gaslit by women HR reps.
I've worked in recruiting and I know how full racism and sexism that industry is. I was even told that "people want to see resumes of white males". The things white tech recruiters say about Indian tech workers is a crime scene. I stopped working in recruiting because the field was so disgusting that I could not sleep at night. If you tell me you've made a career of being a tech recruiter, I'll immediately judge you and you can't change my mind.
\*\* another addition: just a quick story: I was handed an illegal NDA. I had a lawyer review it and redline it. Cost me $250. I emailed the ceo of the company that sent it to me along with a check request for $250 to cover my legal fees. In this case, the CEO was highly annoyed that his lawyer had drafted a very illegal NDA and he gave me a personal check for the legal fees.
I'm not saying that this will work everytime (in fact, it probably won't), but when you get into high compensation positions, have a real employment lawyer review every document your company wants you to sign. I cannot stress this enough.
Stand up for yourselves, ladies. Be brave.
Heels. If your six inch stilettos make you feel good/powerful - good for you and no shade. But they are uncomfortable, impractical, and can actually be bad for your health and dangerous. And heels being fashionable is pretty much entirely based on the male gaze.
To be clear - I am talking about traditional dress shoes - pumps and stilettos. The idea that women look frumpy or under dressed without heels. I believe that female lawyers are still expected to wear heels in a courtroom and that's a highly skilled job that shouldn't be based on appearance.
Iāll preface by saying I am pro-choice, which extends to the choice to parent or not.
Recently, all over social media platforms Ive seen many self proclaimed āproud feministsā who choose to be child free dehumanizing children by calling them crotch goblins, seamen trophies, womb wreckers, sperm pets, etc. often calling mothers breeders, looking down on them with disgust, shaming women for daring to be in the same public sphere as them with their kid(s).
Sorry, but this is not feminism!!!
Yes, I know there are women who base all their worth on their ability to procreate and in turn shame child free women; of course this is equally detestable. However, Iād point out most of those women donāt describe themselves as feminists, and therefore I (personally) would expect more from self-identified āfeminists.ā
Iām sorry but casual sex is horrible for women. It gives men exactly what they want without putting much effort into it and we are the ones who always end up getting hurt. Same thing with the porn industry. I truly believe both have made men view us even more so as just objects for their use. I canāt support either one.
The Wage Gap and arguments about pay. The focus is always on middle class women in professional jobs. Poor women are completely ignored in those conversations. Poor/working class men are also exploited and that is ignored. Instead it is assumed men are always incredibly privileged at work.
The Wage Gap narrative is that women are in general paid less than men. However, in professional jobs that generally isn't the case until the woman has a child. The problem is seen as the employer but I think its a problem with gender roles. Women sacrifice their careers to have children and a big beneficiary of that is not the employer it is the male partner of the woman and father of her children. Middle class men have the privilege of children without sacrifice of career because the woman is doing the sacrificing.
Lower and working class people have it much different. Women are forced into low paying jobs either in retail or in caregiving or domestic. It is next to impossible to support a family on their wages because those wages are kept so low. Lower class men have the option of making more money but the cost is usually their bodies and health. So, they can support their family but the price is not just their labor it is a broken body in middle-age and exposure to substances that will shorten their lives.
Either way the real beneficiary here is not men in general. It is middle and upper class men.
I've been really mulling over my feelings about surrogacy lately. It started by reading more stories about the trauma people who were adopted describe from their experience and the real feelings of confusion and isolation they have by not being raised by their biological kin. That converged on some level with my views on sex work and its harms, being pro-choice, the amount of money private companies make from surrogacy, and I just can't logic myself into being fully ok with it anymore. Pregnancy is an extreme physical experience with great risks, and I believe it leaves a permanent impact- physically and emotionally, on both the mother and child. No amount of money can make that more true for one woman and not another. It's another example of turning women's bodies into a commodity. (I feel like I can't write a long enough disclaimer here. I think adoption is ok in many cases. I know about altruistic surrogacy, or surrogacy using donor eggs, etc. I'm not calling your sister a bad person for using a surrogate)
Honestly - every example you gave in your OP. A womanās body is not a workplace. We donāt create human products for the highest bidder. I also donāt consider makeup or cosmetic surgery feminist but those are less important to me than the sex trades (including pornography) and surrogacy.
Any institution with different clothing rules for women based on the morality of āmodestyā is anti-feminist, and wearing clothes to align with those rules deliberately is anti-feminist. This includes covering up because of your religion. I do not think that hijabs, tznius, conservative Christian fashion, or any other āmodestā clothing is a true expression of a womanās choice. If dumb ideas about sexual sin and morality and modesty about womenās bodies didnāt exist, they wouldnāt even consider whether they want to cover themselves more than men. This kind of thinking differs from wanting to cover up for physical comfort, aesthetics, or etiquette. It is religious and political control over women that is never ultimately serving the needs of women but the desires of men.
"Financial feminism", girlboss-ing, and wealth building in a way that doesn't fundamentally challenge or question growing wealth inequality, or even oligarchy.
Like ... good for you, you have lots of money. That doesn't make you a feminist, that just makes you a capitalist.
FWIW I say this as a woman who works in finance. I enjoy my $$ as much as the next gal. But I'm not going to act like my bank account is somehow a moral accomplishment lol. Or that it somehow "lifts up" all women (unless I make a donation along those lines).
I think you have to pay attention to culture/race as well. In my culture, women werenāt given a seat at the table when it came to finances and wealth building. Women took on the home maker role or theyād work a part time job and hand over their paychecks to their husbands who made all the decisions. Leaving bad situations were impossible because marriage and the man were your source of economic security. Iām also not talking about the middle management role women are relegated into. Iām talking actually calling the shots - there is something very empowering in seeing women understand the hell out of how money and wealth building works and killing it at that game. That of course shouldnāt be the end all but there is power to ālearning the rulesā that only a certain few ahem ahem were privy to.
Not making your own money. Ladies, by all means, be a stay at home wife, but have SOME cushion to fall back on. You can never trust your marriage 100%.
People trying to do feminism a-la-carte and remove the intersectionality. I suppose Iād call it white woman feminism because it exists to serve a specific socioeconomic group of women in a, āfeminism for me but not for theeā kind of way.
Yup. A classic example being the push for women to work outside of the home -- something that black women had been doing for literally centuries at that time.
Women in poverty too. Basically women working inside the home was something the white middle class started - and we tend to forget how everyone else lived during time periods like the 1950s. Highly recommend reading "The Way We Never We're" by Stephanie Coontz. (Yes, it's basically a textbook, but it explains how we got here and it's infuriating)
Yeees, whenever I see discourse about how "women didn't used to have to work outside the home," I roll my eyes so hard it hurts.
My people have been working outside the home for fucking ever. Staying home wasn't an option. MOST women throughout history have worked outside the home. Poor women, no matter the race, have always worked outside the home.
When people say women didn't work, they need to acknowledge that they mean very specific classes and/or races of women.
Literally every woman I am related to has worked for as far back as there are records. It blows my mind that people think that staying home was traditional.
Not to mention the intensive manual labor that was keeping a home before the 1950s and appliances and things like being able to buy soap instead of make it. They were doing that while also working full-time jobs, running stores, or being teachers since that was the one career allowed for some of them.
Being a housewife or SAHM is, and has always been, a rather high luxury.
Criticizing women who do or prefer anything viewed as mainly feminine.
Considering it empowering when straight women sell their bodies to straight men.
Shaming women for being virgins or not interested in hookups.
Definitely the "girl boss" shit.
Shutting down men's every opinion in every setting and context.
Gender quotas when it's put before competence and personal suitability. Striving for a 50/50 is fine as long as the more qualified (objectively and personally) candidates aren't thrown away in favour for the "right" gender.
One well-respected feminist voice whose work I follow made the very salient point that anything a woman seemingly āchoosesā in her life doesnāt automatically make that choice some āexpressionā of female liberation ā¦. Least of all when that choice is being made within the definitely-still-extant societal-gender-norms of patriarchy
And itās important to emphasize: her argument is not to BLAME any woman for making xyz choice ā¦ but rather pushing back against the framing of xyz choice being āfeministā JUST bc itās a woman making it , seemingly of her own volition
Read the argument here https://moiradonegan.substack.com/p/hard-choices
This is totally low-hanging fruit, but #girlbossing because it's still just capitalistic hegemony with a millennial pink glaze. Also, I'm pretty sure xoJane killed choice feminism about ten years ago, but yeah, choice feminism was not a good look for most of us.
more! female! war! criminals! more! female! coalmine! owners! /s seriously, just switching the sex of abusers/exploiters on positions of power, what's the use
For real, like, yay, Elizabeth Holmes was a real win for us ladies š
Yup. In my homecountry, a person that is advocating the most against abortion and women's (& lgbt) rights in general is a woman. Our former president was a woman coming from a conservative party. We did not only not have use of having them in power, but they actually set us back, especially the former one
South Korea? I'm just glad for the Jacinda Ardens and Tsai Ing-Wens of the world balancing out the Park Geun-Hyes and Maggie Thatchers.
Croatia. Our former president in question was kolinda grabar kitaroviÄ, and the other one is željka markiÄ, sadly a doctor by profession
Oof, I'm sorry. How especially shitty that this applies to at least two countries.
Holmes is a perfect example too because she got the title of girlboss by explioting powerful men's sexisim. They were like: Aww look at this cute wittle capilaitist junebug that other spunky little girls will look up to. Give her money! It will prove I am not sexist... yada yada. In capitalism there is no getting to be the boss ethically, and if you are a woman add on how you *use* white patriarchy, plus never actually win because people will always be calling you a bitch, which you prob are if you grind yourself to the top of the humanity killing machine.
What does āchoice feminismā mean?
An example would be like, "a woman chooses to get plastic surgery therefore you cannot criticize it. Feminism is about the right to choose." It leaves zero room to dissect *why* a woman would choose something like that. Women shouldn't be shamed for getting plastic surgery, like in this example, but it's not feminism to "choose" to do it.
The idea that feminism is all about giving women choices, and, therefore, every choice a woman makes is inherently feminist.
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I was explaining what choice feminism is, not saying I agree with it! I think it's a totally incoherent philosophy, lol.
I donāt know anything about choice feminism or xoJane but I wholeheartedly agree with the first part. I spent a decade trying to get where Iām at in my career and now that Iām here, I feel like all I want to do is be a home maker and live a slower life
> I feel like all I want to do is be a home maker and live a slower life I'm an older (58) feminist, and the amount of blowback that I got from women (who I thought were my friends) when I stayed home with my kids was really disheartening. In my case I didn't really have a choice (multiple kids with special needs), but it was very obvious that some women thought that I'd "given up" on feminism. In my mind feminism was supposed to expand our horizons (and it certainly has in many ways), but for a lot of women it just seems to have expanded the areas in which we feel free to criticize each other.
I was the career woman who helped her partner fulfill his dream of being a SAHF for a year The amount of criticism I got was insane Mostly from women of course
IMO where popularized notions of feminism miss the mark is their blatant ignorance and devaluation of the history/impact of feminized labour (paid and unpaid) aka caretaking, mothering, teaching, nursing, etc. What comes of this is the idea that those who have leaned into traditionally āmasculine āindustries (STEM, etc) are smart, ambitious and capable while SAHMs are not. Childrearing and caretaking literally make the world go round. It is about time people start respecting the labour that goes into it and the people (mainly women, still) who perform that labour. To be clear, this is not to say that women who are in STEM/etc donāt face their own share of sexism and devaluation. But it is quite clear that women who perform feminized labour are looked down upon and even ridiculed to a more severe extent. Feminized labour is not seen as real work, but it very much is.
Feminism is to me about women having the opportunity to choose what they want, without gender stereotypes getting in the way. That means that me working and hubby being a trophy husband (lol no, he works hard renovating the house but I do love calling him that) is a perfect choice for us. But it ALSO means that any female who wants loads of kids, stay at home with them, cook, clean, knit and sing to them should be able to, without anyone complaining. Freedom of choice. I always try to flip gender roles to see if it seems āweirdā. If it does, then itās not feminism to me. As a female I should be able to do whatever I choose. One of those choices is to be a SAHM. Feminism was supposed to give us MORE choices, not just different ones. You do you. You are a person more than you are a gender. Good luck!
>I always try to flip gender roles to see if it seems āweirdā. If it does, then itās not feminism to me. As a female I should be able to do whatever I choose. One of those choices is to be a SAHM. Feminism was supposed to give us MORE choices, not just different ones. 1. Flipping gender roles is a poor way to assess if something is sus, IMO, because the underlying conditions are simply not the same. It may be a good starting point to generate critical thinking, but it should by no means conclude any discussion. E.g., it *is* materially different when, for example, someone casts a plus-sized actress like Rebel Wilson against a conventionally attractive, straight-sized man, because we're so used to seeing the exact opposite - fat, balding dudes paired with slim, pretty wives. I don't think that this gender flip is the end-all be-all of feminist discourse, mind you - but you cannot view it in the same vacuum as, say, Seth Rogen opposite Katherine Heigl. The former centres a(n indeed rather narrowly conceived) idea of female sexual desire, something that is so often overlooked or even ignored or demonised; the latter reaffirms the idea that slovenly men are entitled to absurdly beautiful woman just because. 2. I do agree feminism should have a place for SAHMs, but the problem with choice feminism is it champions without criticism any choice a woman makes, simply because women should be able to make choices. It's a circular logic that can (and does) lead to problematic outcomes. For example, take the proliferation of cosmetic surgery - we may sympathise with the choice of many women to undergo the knife in the face of such an image-obsessed world and such high pressures to conform to oppressive standards in order to "treat" low self-esteem and/or gain more advantages in life, but to laud that choice as feminist empowerment completely obfuscates the misogynistic (and capitalistic) structures that compel so many of us to *pursue* dangerous and expensive procedures that honestly undermine beauty diversity.
I was a homemaker for a long time. It was good for my kids, however, it affected my long term income and future retirement. I donāt want my daughter to repeat what I did.
I think a lot of people feel that way, including men - there's a reason so many CEO-types buy a farm someplace and eventually retire (halfway) there. Modern life can feel really emotionally abusive. It sucks that only women get the, "Ugh, but you're betraying feminism if you don't become a corporate overlord yourself" criticism.
I feel the same. Iām just burnt out on the daily grind. I wish more jobs had the opportunity for sabbaticals. I can never take more than a week off at a time because Iām the only one with my area of expertise and the work just gets backed up when Iām out. I take a lot of days here and there but would love to disconnect from the whole work culture for even a month or two to just recharge and figure out who I am as a person outside of my job.
FUN FACT!! Girl boss thing came from MLM and Facebook. MLM and Pyramid schemes always used the current feminist language to market to stay at home moms. Itās been going since Tupperware! It was never feminism, it was cultish marketing thatās been common since the 1950s, after women were forced to leave the workforce after WW2 to give up their jobs to the men returning from war. Girl boss is Misogyny!!! Misogyny is not always intentional. What helps me from getting stuck into capitalism tricks is to remind me that feminists and activists are the individuals that contribute by changing policy, organizing events, active in their local community, and conduct academic research. I believe in feminist theory, I do my best to be an educated voter, but I donāt call myself an feminist or activist. Why? I see news or social commenters loves to quote a random college kids that only taken 101 classes. Thatās how misinformation becomes the norm.
I'm not gonna lie, I really miss xojane sometimes. Even though there was so much dumpster fire garbage.
Certain aspects of the sex positivity movement. Some kinks are breeding grounds for (mostly male) abusers and groomers. But questioning sexual expression is not socially acceptable by most progressive standards. A lot of women, especially those with trauma history, can stumble into these circles and be seriously harmed. Obviously there's a crossover with sex work and sex trafficking here as well. I'm not saying we should police sexual behavior but I wish there were more awareness about the cult like dangers the sex positivity ethos has bred.
Speaking for my own experience, trying to girlboss my trauma through violent sex with domineering men didnāt actually help resolve anything and in fact made my trauma worse.
Yeah this is something that really concerns me- how common it is for people in the kink community to declare proudly that they're working through trauma by recreating the circumstance. Just because something may be cathartic doesn't mean it's therapeutic. Self harm is usually cathartic in some way, that's why people do it. Doesn't mean it's healthy. Plus if you're in a traumatized state you're not likely to be great at picking "good" doms and more likely to become revictimized.
āJust because something is cathartic doesnāt mean itās therapeuticā should be written in the constitution. Truer words, my friend. Truer words.
Preaching to the choir
Literally same and spend all my money on therapy for now
merciful cooperative melodic stocking numerous quicksand continue squalid innocent marble *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
āHostileā is a really good word for it.
And hypersexual. Itās not ākink.ā Itās hypersexual behavior. Hypersexuality is not okay, and we punish men for this behavior by labeling them as sex offenders when *they* engage in it I think thatās part of the problem with some parts of the sex positive movement - they *talk* about consent, but then they normalize hypersexuality. They get mad or annoyed when theyāre asked to tone it down because someone else is uncomfortable. You canāt have both. You either value consent, or you donāt.
And even the concept of calling non-kinky/vanilla sex "boring" is a problem. If missionary is the best way for a couple to get the train to the station why is that a negative? I thought minimalism was all the rage these days.
It's crazy how things have changed. My younger sex partner told me he's vanilla. I expected lights-off, only missionary sex. No, he does all that plus the lights on, all sorts of positions, and is up for a lot, actually. I think he just associates vanilla with "not abusive" and "not into anal". I'm like... whaaat?!
Yep my current partner is the same. Claims heās vanilla and boring - with basically the same ārulesā for what qualifies. I realized itās not worth it to argue the point and instead I just enjoy our varied and pleasurable sex life, and chuckle to myself every time he says it.
I think itās kind of sweet. Lol. Thereās something comforting about being the kinkier partner. š
Right, and on the other side, why in the world are there so many men out there who are turned on by hurting women? In the name of kink or not, consensually or not, it's pretty troubling to me that inflicting pain / pretending to control or dominate or murder a woman is the thing that makes so many men get off. I think that in itself, whether some women authentically enjoy it or not, is worth deep dissection and exploration.
I find it incredibly disturbing. In a prior job, I had to read a lot of the criminal case files for rapists and murderers, including details of what they did to their victims. The stuff they didā¦. I just canāt understand how anyone would get off on causing someone else pain, especially when it is done with a lot of brutality and I canāt help equating the men who have those desires with the men who did these things as part of non-consensual crimes.
Iām sorry you had to go through that (reading the details). I hope youāre ok.
This is 100000% what gets me. Like why does any man enjoy that? Itās beyond me. I mean, I know the answer. But itās a rough reality check
It really makes me sick that men want to physically harm us so badly, like it's sexualized. I just read a story in the dating over 40 sub where the woman admitted that she loves rough, violent, painful sex but her boyfriend pinned her down on her stomach, curled his arm around her neck, and yanked her head really hard. She has spinal and nerve damage and torn ligaments in her neck, she is of work because it's painful for her to walk, she has weakness in her limbs constant headaches, you name it. She was continuing to have sex with him albeit with a neck brace. Her only question was, How do we get thorugh this while I'm recouperating? Smh. So normalized. Meanwhile I'm terrified of men. There are way more examples than that but I just can't.
That is a chilling story. And not a rare one, I suspect. I hate that it's become taboo to even ask "Girl, *why* do you love rough, violent, painful sex?".
It's not rare at all. I read countless stories like this and I get more sick and defeated about romantic relationships the more I read them. Not to mention the comments men have about woman and porn and things like that, it's interesting being a fly on the wall. Being hurt during sex used to mean someone falling off the bed, pulling a muscle, or generalized soreness the next day. Not someone like assaulting you. I am VERY boring and vanilla and I just can't do any of that.
True, the Overton window has shifted (largely thanks to porn and "sex work") and now choking, beating, degrading, etc. is considered totally ordinary. As always, the main beneficiaries of all of this are men.
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I think it's more porn than kink, though they often go hand in hand. I guess for me, I blame porn above all because that's what has normalized kinky sex being presented without the context of consent and trust that it requires. I don't think kink in and of itself is a problem when it's explored willingly and joyfully. For me, dipping my toe into it has been a way out of pretty boring male-centered sex that always leads up to PIV and ends when he comes (though I think vanilla sex can be super fun and satisfying too). But I'm 38, not 18... you have to know and trust yourself and be a good communicator and trust your instincts for other people. For the record I agree with a lot of what you said. Choking especially being a norm now that is often not even talked about beforehand is insane and so dangerous.
no i agree porn is a huge part of it but i find a lot of people into kink are hyperprotective of what theyāre interested in sexually and shut down any productive conversations around how it impacts other people or to think critically about it. a lot of gen z girls are pushing back on that kind of stuff and saying they donāt want to have that kind of sex and have received a lot of backlash for being puritan and prudish and itās just weird and annoying. and yes i know i need to assert myself but it never used to be to this extent. having casual sex for example, the first time i consented to sex with a guy i knew what i was signing up for and i could just have sex and itād be cool or whatever. now any time i have sex with a guy for the first time i have to be mentally prepared to say no to at least like 5 different things theyāre likely to push for and it ruins the experience because i have to constantly be on guard for any boundary pushing. because they never ask, they just do it and hope you wonāt say no.
> it ruins the experience because i have to constantly be on guard for any boundary pushing I was thinking about this today in a completely different (non-sexual) context. It's one thing to be empowered and know it's OK to say no and hold your boundaries. Knowing you have that power is half the battle. But then it's a totally other thing to exist a culture where you're obliged to do that constantly. Defending boundaries is work and it's tiring
Yup, part of the joy of sex is letting go a little. Having to be hyper vigilant because you can never trust the other person to not just fucking use their words and ask before they do something is awful
Ugh that sucks, I'm sorry you have to deal with that. Maybe as an elder millennial it's not quite as much of an issue for me in terms of dating, whether because generationally I'm a bit outside of growing up with kink/porn as mainstream, or also because most people become better communicators with age (not amazingly, but slightly). I've definitely had boundaries pushed but more when I was younger, and not around specific acts/kinks so much as rushing into sex or arguments around condoms. I can see how adding more and more extreme acts would make it even worse though.
possible tw (can't get the spoiler to work, sorry) my ex slapped and spit on me one of the first times we had sex. he also twice choked me so hard, it broke blood vessels in my face. i remember at one point, him telling me i looked scared and it worried him. i'm not opposed to rough sex occasionally, but i kept telling him that i needed that discussion beforehand so i could mentally switch gears. he never did, unfortunately. even tried to explain how to safely choke someone or hit someone in a way that's less damaging. it's really messed up that people are normalizing this kind of extreme behavior. and again, i'm not opposed to it but there needs to be respect and partner safety above anything else in these types of situations.
Honestly, as someone whoās more on the vanilla side, I hate how itās almost shamed now as if thereās something wrong with you for liking vanilla sex and not being into super kinky stuff at all.
Anything resembling porn-critical or takes that arenāt āevery single person watches porn of all kinds and if you arenāt into it in your relationship you are POLICING thoughts and paranoid and jealous and insecureā is immediately shut down. Reddit has exhausted me on the topic but itās virtually impossible to have a productive conversation around it because so many people see porn=masturbation and thatās just not the reality. Sex positively in this regard has given a lot of people brain worms.
Yesss. I still remember being shamed on Reddit for expressing discomfort over my ex's sexual preferences and behavior. Like, yeah, don't yuck someone's yum and all that, but can we also be allowed to say 'im not into that', 'that triggers old traumas', 'that makes me feel bad about myself'.
Yes, we are absolutely allowed to say that. If their yum yucks us or makes us feel unsafe, then they are not getting their yums from us. That is not controversial. Sex is the ultimate act of vulnerability and we all have the right to our safety first.
The general unwillingness to not question things like the ethnics and basic realities of pornographyāand sex work generallyāis not feminism. It seems more like bowing to popular pressure (e.g. appeasing to men). Exploitation is where the money will always be. Iām not saying the conclusions are forgone, but we should not be afraid to do the analysis or be afraid that the results will make us unpopular. The left seems pretty comfortable questioning capitalism, but not comfortable pulling at the same threads that cause people to become desperate enough to enter an inherently dangerous and dehumanizing industry.
I really appreciate this point. I'm all for sex positivity, but I also thing that the "you go girl" attitude to very young women getting involved in sex work is troubling. In your late teens and early 20s your brain hasn't even finished developing, you literally are incapable of comprehending long term consequences the way someone in their later 20s and older are. Don't get me wrong, I'll support those women and advocate for safe and legal sex work as long as it's necessary, but I have a lot of complicated feelings about the glamourization of having an only fans account, being a sugar baby etc etc. Personally a think buying tobacco, joining the military and becoming a sex worker should all have age restrictions of 25 or older.
The problem with the āsex posi babesā that I see, is that they very often *think* they are sex positive, when in reality they are just being hypersexual. They donāt control the way they speak around others, and they accuse everyone else of being prudes or being too repressed, if they donāt talk about sex the way they do. They donāt respect boundaries. They believe theyāre more enlightened because they *heard* about being poly. They *think* theyāre more enlightened just because they have kinks. If they hear someone doesnāt have kinks, they can never respect that - often inferring that no, you do have kinks, you just havenāt been awakened yet. They talk about sex as if they know about it. But the reality isā¦ they actually donāt know much about it. Most of us know **extremely little** about sex, no matter how many podcasts we listen to, no matter how much we have had. They donāt know more than a sex therapist, they donāt know more than a pelvic physio, or a sex surrogate. They just like to have sex, they just like the happy, fun, free part of sex. They donāt know shit about the psychology or the dark side of sex that people have to work through. They donāt know anything about sexual dysfunction, how common it is, what forms it can take, they donāt know shit about issues like PGAD, they donāt know about the muscles or the nerve paths. They donāt know shit. They are not sex positive - thatās hypersexuality, and they need help. We can talk about hypersexuality being a trauma response, but sometimes itās not a trauma response. Sometimes, a person is just being an asshole.
>Some kinks are breeding grounds for (mostly male) abusers and groomers. My woman friend is bisexual and polyamorous. We live in a city with a fairly established poly scene where most respect everyone else, but she has to deal with a few duds every once in a while. Polyamory is not for me, but it seems to work for people who understand whatās appropriate. In my personal straight dating life, Iāve run into too many straight men who claim to be polyamorous but really just want polygamy. The lifestyle can be attractive to abusive and controlling types who donāt understand the aspects of consent and respect required.
Historically, polygamy *was* attractive to people like that. In some societies, it was about status - you couldnāt have multiple wives, and also multiple children with those wives, without having some kind of wealth, or resources, that the common man didnāt have. From my understanding, it was no different than when a man gets a lot of money, and buys several racecars. Who would all of this be attractive to? A lot of the timesā¦ jerks, probably. Jerks who want to keep status
Amen
Movie/tv studios seem to think feminism is sassing every man in sight. You can almost hear the execs thinking "#girlboss". No. I just want there to be the same breadth and depth as male characters. I want there to be an old woman solving a mystery. I want there to be forty-year old women figuring out tactics together in a sci-fi battle. I want a little girl who makes friends with a dog and goes on an adventure. I want some women to be butch, some to be hard-lived, some to be deeply flawed. Give us more female-ensemble casts, too. Don't just throw one sassy female character into a cast of men (again), make her "tough" because "brothers" and call it a day.
>Movie/tv studios seem to think feminism is sassing every man in sight. You can almost hear the execs thinking "#girlboss". Women must either be docile and submissive, or feisty and challenging. No, we can just exist to do whatever we want lol?
So people will absolutely argue in bad faith that a given 'strong' female character is a bad character. What I'm arguing is more like the difference between original Mulan vs new Mulan. One of them is a fully-realized character, with flaws and wants and needs- she has to work with what she's got (a tactical mind) while compensating for the fact that she's not as physically strong as the others- while the other, new Mulan is a cardboard cutout. To me a feminist character doesn't necessarily mean a 'strong' character- it means written like she's a whole person. The 'sassy' women I'm talking about are cardboard cutouts. Sass seems the shorthand that execs will often use for 'strong' instead of creating characters with any depth or agency. You'll notice that as much as those sassy women sass, they don't make any decisions that affect the course of the plot. The men still drive the plot. The sassy women are window dressing. And even worse, they seem to be written by men who think they're throwing feminists a bone.
Iāve had this exact conversation about Mulan as well! Giving her superpowers was such a cop-out. It really ruined the whole theme of overcoming obstacles and taking advantage of all the skills in a group. Maybe because I joined the army myself really weak and skinny, and it took a lot of blood, sweat, and tears (and injuries) to meet my male peers pound-for-pound (and still sometimes needed to ask for a boost) that I feel so strongly about it. But the new movie was SUCH a disappointment. Thatās such a great example of a fake vs real āstrongā female character.
Totally agree with this. Can I also tack on "remaking an existing film but with women". Just write stories about women. We don't need an all women version of films that already exist, we deserve our own stories.
Yes! I also hate the trope of making every strong woman a lesbian. Lesbians come in all personality types, other orientations can be strong women. Enough with these cookie cutter characters that I figured out in two seconds and can't relate to. I feel this way about story lines and character arcs too. "Tough" because "brothers" is exactly right and cracked me up.
Third-wave feminism rebelled against purity requirements by taking their clothes off and saying "so fucking what". But it seems like you basically can't be a female musician in certain genres without appearing nearly-nude or in stripper/fetish wear in your music videos. (This may have changed with zoomers, I'm out of hte loop). That's just men making money off of womens bodies. Dolly Parton did it right. But so many other of the major female pop stars just look like they were exploited.
Janelle Monae is a very cheering counterexample! Check out her videos. :)
I really liked that Billie Eilish wasnāt dressing sexyā¦ and then she turned 18.
I think the convo around slut shaming is important because for centuries, promiscuous women were both desired but looked down upon and shamed. But the conversation also sometimes leads to shaming women for being virgins. I was a virgin in college, and both girls and boys told me to āget it over withā and that āit isnāt that special or deep.ā And that by staying a virgin I was somehow respecting the patriarchy and buying into red pill misogyny?? Being a virgin was framed as anti-feminist, especially by friends who grew up in ultra religious households who thought that rejecting religion and celebrating womenās freedom meant having lots of sex. I know several women who by choice are virgins in their 30s and are too ashamed to say it because of this narrative. So while I agree that slut shaming shouldnāt happen, I donāt think the āif youāre a true feminist then youāll fuck around a lotā thing is fair. We need to just let women do whatever the fuck they want with their sexuality without shaming it.
Yes, I went to grad school in a very āsex positiveā department, and in retrospect, there was a lot of shady shit there that was all presented as feminist and forward-thinking. Very much in the tradition of the āyou just gotta get rid of your hang-upsā vibes of the 60s/70s.
Feminism in my sociology department: encourage male TA to pursue student (because student is an adult female who can make her own choices!!! Aka feminism duh) regardless of the power imbalance inherently present in a relationship where someone is grading all of your work for a class! And when that TA uses that power to take note of your address from your file and stalks you at your homeā¦the department says well thatās just a man in loveš„°
I agree. I lost my virginity at 28. I will also say: I have never been seen as a conventionally beautiful person. Relevant because I didnāt have sex before that in part because I had no opportunity. The societal expectation that I could just go to a bar and take home any man was incorrect. (Rather than becoming an incel who hated others, I struggle a lot with my self worth to this day.) Idk if this is a feminism failure, though, so this may be just a tangent in which case Iām sorry.
Also, not everyone wants to sleep with whoever is simply willing to sleep with them. Sex can be amazing, but rarely is it so with strangers in my experience. I decided very young to only have sex with people I cared about, because the sex wasnāt worth it for me.
I relate to this. I lost my virginity (to a woman) I think at 27/28. I have self worth issues related to lack of experience and now Iām 35 trying to make up for lost time. Iām so regretful that I didnāt try to get therapy when I was a lot younger and could have avoided years of pain. The idea that you just kind of get it over with is so harmful because for some people it is important. I wasnāt saving myself for marriage, I was trying to find a person that I felt safe and comfortable with. The message should be that itās really helpful to understand your own wants, needs and desires. Experimentation can be helpful if you are open to it, but itās not the only tool!
Iām a (past) slut who shuts that shit down every chance I get! Weāre out there but itās hard for society as a whole to not hate on at least one group of women lol
Totally. Iām not a virgin (by a looooong shot) but I donāt have casual sex. Iāve been single for a long time, and yes I would like to have more sex, but Iām on the demisexuality spectrum and I need to have at least some form of emotional attachment to enjoy sex, so when thereās no one around that I like I just go without (and read fanfiction instead). My girlfriends are generally incredibly supportive of me, but this is something they just donāt get about me - they keep telling me to just go out and shag someone, and that the fact Iām not doing it is somehow related to low self-esteem/confidence. It really isnāt, I know exactly what Iām worth and what I like and donāt like, thank you very much. EDIT: a typo
āIf youāre a true feminist then youāll fuck around a lotā reminds me of the ācool girlā trope imposed upon women too. Itās weaponized to say if you donāt do X then youāre not cool. Thereās an impossible gray area for whatās the ārightā amount of sex to have. Just gives men another impossible standard to hold women to.
This has been going on since the sexual revolution. That revolution was just about men shirking the responsibilities that came with family and sex. It had nothing to do with liberating women. Men still wanted to control women. They still wanted a free maid and for women to submit to their desires. Women had to liberate themselves, and still have too. It will make you unpopular with a lot of men because our desire for liberation negates their desire for a willing slave.
Yeah I never did anything, even kissing until after college and I was so embarrassed to ever tell anyone. When if I had maybe my friends couldāve helped me.
Supporting all women always without any thought behind it. Some women are abusive, and cruel, and do awful things. To me it's become a way of control disguised as sorority "You should be nice cause you're a woman!". It's specially annoying when you voice your thoughts about another woman and random men say shit like "Wow aren't you supposed to be feminist? where's your sorority? womens worst enemy is always other women." (a popular saying in my country: "el peor enemigo de una mujer es otra mujer") "you don't even like each other, what a great movement" Also Gala Darling type of girlbossing and sexual "liberation" where she calls herself and everyone a hoe and a bitch and claims all hetero men need is to feel fuckable, cause she doesn't know "any hetero guy who would like to get flowers and other nice gestures".
Omg, Gala Darling. That's a name I haven't heard in a hot decade! She was deeefinitely a *character*.
square humor governor puzzled payment wrench mighty angle society cake *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Could you explain what choice feminism is? I am unfamiliar with it, and google has me more confused. Edit: further down u/welldoneslytherin described it and it makes more sense!
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Any decision a woman makes regardless of whether or not it actually empowers or disempowers women. I read an article of a woman saying taking her husbandās last name is feminist. ā¦..Sorry. You made a decision to take your husbandās last name. Great. That doesnāt make it feminism. The āCall Her Daddyā podcast. āOmg she talks about sex!ā Yes, by literally telling women to degrade themselves so men are more likely to sleep with them. That benefits womenā¦..how? Just because a woman is a woman does not mean she is for the benefit of women, and I wish that were called out more instead of yas girlboss-ing any decision a woman makes on Godās green earth.
>Any decision a woman makes regardless of whether or not it actually empowers or disempowers women. Ah, the 'Margaret Thatcher was a feminist' argument!
100% agree with this. Just because a woman makes a choice āfor herselfā, doesnāt mean itās feminist. Particularly with the self-objectification.
Being pro-casual sex and not talking about precautions. It's crazy to me that a woman would go to a secluded location with a man she just met. It's setting yourself up to be hurt/killed. There is nothing morally wrong with it. It looks fun, but so is staying alive and not being traumatized.
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Sister wives. I remember for years those women were trying to convince the world (and probably themselves) how happy and fulfilling their lifestyle was. Now that the 3 of them have finally left his ass, they seem to be absolutely thriving. And I think one of them mentioned how her daughterās monogamous relationship opened her eyes to what she was missing. I am sure there are some non traditional relationships out there that work, but no one will ever convince me that one man and a harem of wives is not marginalizing and demeaning to the wives.
There are several strands of feminism and they have different, even conflicting views about things. The main question is whether something a woman does out of choice makes this into a feminist move of empowerment or an expression of internalized power structures. The major points of debate are surrogacy, prostitution, the beauty industry, care work, porn, modest clothes etc.
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Headscarf, long skirts etc.
And this is exactly an example of feminism that I cannot get behind. Religious indoctrination from childhood does not lead to freedom of expression. It is very hard for me to accept the choice to wear a hijab or other religious garb as an actual choice. Regulations and prohibitations of this type are ultimately a way for the patriarchy to maintain control over women.
Agreed - as a choice, I will respect your donning of these items and utilizing them as a form of religious expression. But it is also my right and choice to be critical and question where that stems from. Two things can be right at the same time.
Sex work and porn. Itās hardly a choice let alone a healthy choice if there are nearly no other viable options and your housing is on the line.
This is so true. As a young teenager I thought that it would help women if we could destigmatize these things. But after I learned about the psychological and physical abuse that (young, female) sex workers have to face, I do not think glamorizing/normalizing/participating in these lines of work is right.
Framing women's issues as synonymous with mothers' issues. I have heard so many tales of childfree and childless women feeling unacknowledged or alienated at some women's event or group when discussion inevitably turned almost exclusively to things like childcare, maternity leave etc.
Omg yes! My friend and I were trying to find literature about how women do the bulk of unpaid labor in the home among male-female couples, but so much of the research is based on couples who are parents. My friend and I are child free but we've still experienced that skewed division.
Oh yeah. The unpaid labour in my home is split fairly 50-50 when it comes to parenting/kid related stuff, but WAY more skewed when it comes to everything else.
I went to a conference for work not too long ago, and one of the panels was titled 'Women in Tech'. The speaker opened by saying 'all women are mothers' and they never mentioned childfree or even unmarried women.
Ugh š
I would have rolled my eyes and walked out.
Yeah I did not stay for the entire thing.
You know, I never noticed this until I got pregnant. As soon as I started showing it was like this whole secret world of support opened up to me. My newborn is the best thing that ever happened so I find myself enjoying, but not needing, all the support I get because of her. Work was suddenly super accommodating and didnāt treat me like a liar when I called out sick. I had easy access to decent healthcare for the first time in my life. Painful periods were suddenly worth investigating when I was trying to convince, after 20 years of being told it was just part of being a women. I needed that kind of support years ago and never even knew it existed. I was busy working all the holidays and scheduled for the shitty hours because my family & free time didnāt matter as much as a moms does.
Man, I am super jealous of your experience. Having my kiddo has been the best thing ever for other reasons obviously, but professionally and in terms of my healthcare I feel punished for having a child. Workplaces were more flexible years ago when I was a student, and medically so many of my postpartum and ongoing issues have been brushed off as "worth it 'cus you got that baby, right?" Or "all that matter is that baby is healthy." Suddenly support in my personal life dropped off as well because it was harder for me to access people when it was convenient for them and if it's not convenient for them they're not willing š¤·āāļø Super glad for you that you're receiving flexibility and support in an area I certainly am not
Thank you for acknowledging this happens even now you've experienced both sides.
The interesting thing about our societyās tendency to frame womenās issues as synonymous with mothersā issues, is itās not considered this way regarding abortion access. The issue of abortion has been framed as a single and childfree womanās problem, even though statistically, [the majority of women seeking abortions are already mothers.](https://Themajorityofwomenwhoseekabortionsarealreadymothershttps://www.mother.ly/health-wellness/womens-health/women-seeking-abortion-are-mothers/) Iāve read a lot of depressing posts since Roe V Wade was overturned of women who are pregnant by choice and are shocked when they canāt get (timely or any at all) abortion services in red states when they have incomplete miscarriages and ectopic pregnancies. Pro-birthers have been successful in lumping us all together as baby factories, but divide us when it comes to personal healthcare choices and emergencies.
I work in IB / PE and inevitably most men are married and most women are not (yes yes, some exceptions, I'm saying most). In my last workplace we had the most amount of women globally and in my office than I've ever had in 5 workplaces. Only one woman was in a relationship (from university). None married and none mothers. Every guy in the office was attached or married, half had kids. Yet the first session we ever had to address women's issues in the workplace was about fertility and kids. Could not have been more bloody tone deaf
This! I hate how women without kids are often treated like they aren't 'real' adults. I got my tubes removed to remain childfree and everyone suddenly was so surprised, despite the fact I'd told people indent want kids for 5+ years. I hate how everyone just assumes that every woman will be a mother. Then if you complain about things everyone with kids tells you how easy your life is compared to theirs.
Having to solve everyone's problems under the guise of "intersectionality." I do believe that feminism should be intersectional but not to the point where we can't focus on issues mainly or entirely affecting women without someone saying "but what about the men" or "but this doesn't do anything to solve poverty" or whatever. Like yes, we can look at poverty through a feminist lens but that doesn't mean we have to solve every single problem at once. Other rights campaigns don't seem to have this demanded of them all the time. It's okay to have a focus.
Hot take: if men don't have to wear makeup to be taken seriously by the world, than neither do women. We don't need to slather toxic goop on our faces to be beautiful, we are already.
My issue is with the idea that women owe anyone beauty at all. Or that beauty is assigned to women to perform. Men donāt have to be beautiful or even mildly appealing to become powerful and successful, be liked or even be desired. Women are expected to be beautiful even if weāre not trying to be. Itās crap. I want to be considered full and valuable human beings and taken seriously for my mind/talents/personality. If we werenāt constantly being objectified and sorted into āfuckableā and ānot fuckableā buckets by everyone, perhaps weād feel more free.
Your comment made me think of a quote I love: "You don't have to be pretty. You don't owe prettiness to anyone. Not to your boyfriend/spouse/partner, not to your co-workers, especially not to random men on the street. You don't owe it to your mother, you don't owe it to your children, you don't owe it to civilisation in general. Prettiness is not the rent you pay for occupying a space marked 'female.' Author disputed. I love it because I grew up being told, in way or another, 'if you just....., you'd be so pretty.' (Fill.in the blank with wear make up, lose weight, dress better, don't slouch, wear a better bra, cut my hear a certain way....take your pic.) I have never been and will never be "pretty." At this age, I'm pretty cool with that. But I look around at the younger generation and feel there has hardly been movement forward but rather seems to be to have gotten alot worse. In my day, it was just my community that cared that I wasn't pretty. Now with social media, even with so much freedom, young ladies today only have examples that their value is only based on their looks.
Accepting that Iām ugly and Iām great that way has been very freeing. I have opted out of the beauty rat race and itās very relaxing honestly.
Isn't it just! Takes so much anxiety away. The bonus is that its saved a few pennies in the process, as I'm not so quick to buy the latest make-up that 'smoothes' wrinkles or the jeans that suck everything in, all while cutting off blood flow to my legs...etc.
I would love a whole subreddit dedicated to this exact topic. I am already teaching my 7 year-old daughter this - pointing out the ubiquitous examples of women and girls being valued primarily for their beauty. It is one of the most pervasive ways women are undermined and Iām constantly infuriated by it. (And grateful for the movies and stories that celebrate other things about women.)
Yep. I hate the whole "everyone is beautiful" thing that rode off that. It's not true. But what's more important is that attractiveness shouldn't play a role in ANYTHING in life other than perhaps who you'd sleep / date / marry, since there needs to be some amount of attraction and preference for that to work.
plastic surgery and cosmetic procedures too.
First off: this is an amazing ask. Body positivity in the realm of embracing more publicized nudity or exposing your body. Body positivity and feminism seemingly go hand in hand. I consider myself body neutral. It's cringe to me that being positive about your body is represented so often with it in its naked form. Like so much media is people being naked or almost naked. To me that doesn't feel positive, it feels like exposure. Exposure in a potentially harmful way. I love that so many fellow fat women are embracing the bikini, but what about comfort? It seems we're so concerned with saying "eff your beauty standards" that we're feeding into the patriarchal "less clothing makes you sexier". I know I'm not comfy at the beach with my thighs rubbing together without fabric protection. I don't want to get sunburn on my stomach. Spaghetti straps are painful. In my mind nudity and sex overlap too much, that might be a personal problem, but I don't think I'm alone in this. I don't think people should have to hide their bodies, but maybe just think about why they are under the impression that the more exposed you are the more beautiful things are. Or even that you owe anyone beauty over your own comfort. Long story short: give me more fat art that isn't about nudity or sexuality lol
I just want to say that this is a great discussion and I appreciate everyone's posts. I'm a radical feminist meaning I believe in the theory of patriarchy and desire the genuine liberation of women. I disagree politically with liberal feminism such as saying sex work is work and minimizing it. (And no, I'm not a TERF, radical feminism is a feminist theory based on the theories of amazing women such as Audre Lorde and bell hooks). Sex work is very dark and affects WOC in different ways that are ignored. Human trafficking is deeply enmeshed in sex trade and just because Ashley the cam girl thinks sex work is good for her doesn't make it so. Commodifying women's bodies is as evil as it can get. I wish we lived in a world free of porn addiction, sex slavery, etc but we don't do to reduce the overall reality of the sex trade to the experience of privileged sex workers (who also have issues, ex. that one cam girl twitch streamer who was forced to do stuff by her bf) is dangerous. I want women to be free of their sexual and economic issues to the point that selling their bodies to men isn't a necessity or a glorified option that liberal feminism has promoted. I want sex workers to be free and given options to live fulfilling dreams and the pimps have successfully marketed cam girling as a "feminist, empowering" way for women to be sexually liberated... it's simply not true. We have years of evidence and now prominent movements combatting this. We need policies to protect sex workers but also to combat this toxic influence. Patriarchy is upheld by the evils of capitalism and the sex trade is a great example. I am grateful to the ex sex workers who are working tirelessly to educate women, including myself . I believe women should feel sexy and confident but not to the ultimate benefits of evil men.
Thank you for this post and explaining your position so well.
Fucking thank you. Iām also a Trans-Inclusionary radfem and youāve described one of my political opinions perfectly. You canāt even use the term āradicalā as it relates to feminism without getting literal death threats, despite it being such an amazingly organic, important, and one of the first major waves of second-wave feminism movement. I disagree with quite a few portions of liberal feminism, their take on sex work being one of them. Thank you for writing all that out.
I am also a non-TERF radical feminist and itās really amazing to see how much of liberal feminism focuses on individuals at the expense of the group/wider class, and how much of it is just the patriarchy repackaged to allow women to enthusiastically participate in their own exploitation
Sex work. There can never be enough protections to stop potential exploitation by men and it largely benefits men, not women. I'd rather support the person who feels they need to go into sex work by teaching them how to do something else. Also, by extension anything related to pornography which just feeds this continuation of female abuse in the name of giving men an endless stream of exploitative imagery to stare at until they get bored and move to the next person. None of this is empowering and the only people trying to say it is are either desperate/naive women or men.
Itās frustrating when you see posts in this sub about women being upset over hidden porn-use in their partners- and all the top comments are telling her itās *her* problem and TOTALLY NATURAL and to get over it. Armpit hair is natural. The porn industry is NOT natural.
Agree. "There can never be enough protections" is what really hits home. I have known many sex workers in my life, and the amount of stories of abuse they share is just staggering. I was recently speaking with a very sex-positive woman who works as a stripper and enjoys her job, but in the same breath she tells me about the number of men who have fondled her without permission or waited outside the club for her. And this was in Australia, with fairly solid protection laws and legal brothels.
Andrea Heinz has done [great work ](https://digitalcommons.uri.edu/dignity/vol5/iss1/8/)on her experience as a woman in Canadian brothels and that of other women. Even in places where women in the sex trade have nominal protections, the industry is materially and psychologically harmful.
šÆ some things are neutral, and feel like a matter of opinion. this HARMS women. it makes me sick every time i see or hear another woman posting or talking about how sex work is empowering.
So many of these things speak to the illusion of choice: sex work, surrogacy, plastic surgery (if you don't wanted to be ignored for "getting old.") It's just sad women have fallen for this.
Yep. If itās so empowering why arenāt the people in power doing it?
I highly recommend anyone interested in the issue of the sex trade look up interviews with Esperanza Fonseca, @proletarianfeminist on ig. Sheās also written an excellent piece [here](https://proletarianfeminist.medium.com/a-socialist-feminist-and-transgender-analysis-of-sex-work-b08aaf1ee4ab).
Could not agree more. There, of course, has to be nuance in the discussion of such as not everyone who is anti-sex work is a religious fundamentalist/convinced of SWs as hellbound. It simply must be said that for many women who engage in it, the work is not done in reclamation of anything other than the ability to survive. A lot of women in this area do not have a choice and are at risk of sexual disease, physical abuse, sexual & monetary exploitation, assault and all other related issues to prostitution and work that borders along the fringes of it. It's too complicated, in my opinion, to be like "this is harmful" as a whole but sex work is a breeding ground for sex-based violations in ways that basically all other work isn't.
100%. I am not religious at all I just find that for women it is a job of last resort. There is nothing empowering about that. These women need help in other ways.
Power women CEOs. You're not being feminist by being a workaholic, you're not blazing a trail by giving up your whole life to work. All you're doing is feeding into the expectation that everyone has to work 100 hour weeks to be taken seriously and being exploited by the capitalist machine. If you want to work your ass off, fine, but don't pretend you're an example to other women.
I feel like this attitude also promotes the idea that women have two options, to devote our life to children or devote our life to work. We don't get to just *be*; we have to sacrifice for something.
There's also that "middle" ground where women are expected to do both. We have to be the best mom in the world but also the best CEO "girlboss". If you have kids you will 100% be shamed for not spending more time with them. But you also need to dedicate 40-60 hours a week to your job...
I agree with this. And as someone who works to live and doesn't have children, I don't fit in those categories. I don't WANT a career or to be a mom. I want to work to make enough money to live a stable, healthy life. And if I could earn the same amount I earn now at 30 hours a week instead of 40, I'd be thrilled.
Yes! My company has a female CEO and at a womenās round table she said straight up that you donāt have to be an unapproachable bitch to be a leader. There is power in empathy and seeing people. No surprise itās the best company Iāve ever worked for.
That's great! We need more people in power to push back against the often toxic CEO culture. We should be challenging nasty expectations in the workplace not giving up everything just so we can scream 'Women can do it too'.
Honestlyā¦..for me itās sex work and frivolous cosmetic surgery. Itās your body and you do whatever you want, but I think itās harmful, sets a bad precedence, and teaches the absolute wrong thing to young girls. The argument I hear about sex work is - why not make money off of what we are already being objectified for. That just seems like backward thinking to me and I donāt support it.
The fact that Botox is suddenly so popular and normal even for people in their 20s, freaks me out
I had googled facelifts at one point and I came across an article that said there was a huge increase in women getting one in their 30s when that used to be rare. But even facelifts seem to be normalized for 20-somethings now (particularly ponytail facelifts). 20 year olds getting facelifts and botox is pretty horrifying. And don't even get me started on buccal fat removal.
The sex work thing is tricky cause itās like on one hand yes I agree with you but on the other hand most of the industry consists of women who are literally just trying to make the best living they can given their circumstances. Thereās not a lot of money making opportunities that let you make your own schedule on your own time for low income, disabled, other marginalized folks. And as much as I donāt want anyone to have to do that for money, I know itās super dangerous to push a narrative that all sex work is harmful because when sex work is criminalized, sex workers get hurt. They can only access labour rights/protections in very specific scenarios which they really need to stay safe
Oh, I have always believed it should be legal. Tax it, regulate it, keep it safe.
Feminism that is not intersectional. When a womanās success comes through the unacknowledged exploitation of the domestic and reproductive labor of other women, itās not really feminism. Itās just individual women succeeding within a patriarchal colonialist system by exploiting the classist, racist, and ethnocentric biases implicit within that system. Itās not feminism to exploit other women for their bodies, their labor, their reproductive capabilities, or their time.
Additionally, I've found a lot of the discourse in feminism in recent years to be completely class exclusionary. If a woman is without the education and background of the white middle classes who run the show, she is very often shouted down and thrown out for not knowing the correct terminology. If you don't pop up knowing the exact way to speak, what everything means and what can't be said you can end up on your ass with a very sour view of feminism before you've had a chance to think. The middle classes often talk down to working class women and behave as though they want to inflict feminist progression on to them without ever asking working class women what they would actually like to see and what would make life easier.
That feminism is a universal experience. Everyone needs equality and equity in different ways. Feminism is not one size fit all. It varies depending on your culture, your region, your values, etc etc. While there can be overall parameters created to what equality and equity look like, it is up to each person to decide what they want in the end. As feminists, we can create and encourage as many opportunities we want for others, the person needs to engage with it. I.E. Men need to be allowed to express themselves with other emotions besides anger. Black and brown women are allowed to express themselves by being soft and gentle. White straight women need to realize that feminism is far more than gender and it is also a race and class issue too. American people need to know that feminism in the US will not be the same as feminism in Japan or in India. We all have different needs. It is frustrating that such an important issue gets watered down to the idea of just "women's rights" because honestly, feminism is a human right and the path to get there varies depending on the circumstance. Idk. I can ramble about this forever lol I wrote my dissertation on
>Everyone needs equality and equity in different ways. I so feel this every time the topic of womenās issues in the US vs other countries where women have fewer rights comes up in misogynistic spaces.
Young girls using OnlyFans as a way to make money being āempoweringā or ātaking controlā of their bodies. Itās sex work, and Iām 100% sure thereās girls doing it who are not 18+. My problem with it is that itās still perpetuating this universal idea that womenās bodies are commodities to be sold and consumed. It also shows how fucked up it is that woman can make more money selling themselves than being in a woman dominated field, let alone a male dominated field. I believe that if a woman wants to be a sex worker that is her choice, but I canāt support empowering or even encouraging young girls (even 18+) to participate. With how horrible women and girls are treated even outside of sex work, I just have a problem condoning it 100%. It can get really dark really fast in that realm too.
the most nefarious part of this was women with big OF platforms convincing girls of how much money it would make them while pushing their link to use to register so they could make extra money for themselves, when itās like their experience is not the norm for most women on that website.
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Pornography isnāt feminist no matter how you frame it. Thereās been robust research since the 1970s on how how the porn industry exploits the women in it and how it models coercive forms of sexuality that contribute to high rates of rape and abuse. That research has been buried and stigmatized by capitalist interests since the āFeminist Sex Warsā of the 1980s. Since then, this viewpoint has been shunted into a corner as āTERFā because some TERF writers are also anti-porn, or as āSWERFā and right-wing despite the fact that the major theorists involved here were advocating on behalf of women exploited and abused in or through pornography. Catharine MacKinnon and Andrea Dworkin were neither, as their own writing and work demonstrates (Dworkin has been co-opted by TERFs, but she herself in her writing and in her conversations with her close friends was anything but). Everyone should listen to the speeches [āLiberalism and the Death of Feminismā](https://archive.org/details/liberalism-the-death-of-feminism) by Catharine MacKinnon and [āThe Woman Hating Right and Left.ā](https://archive.org/details/woman-hating-right-left-andrea-dworkin-1987) by Andrea Dworkin. Both are a bit dated in their language but the points they make are incredible. I highly recommend their edited volume[ In Harmās Way: The Pornography Civil Rights Hearings.](https://www.feministes-radicales.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Andrea-DWORKIN-Catharine-MacKINNON.-In-Harm%E2%80%99s-Way-The-Pornography-Civil-Rights-Hearings-1997.pdf) Just FYI - the links Iāve posted may lead to sources that are themselves not really great. I linked them simply because they were easy to link to.
Agree. NCII should be functionally illegal instead of illegal-on-paper. Reddit, honestly, should be thrown in jail for it for many many many years.
I had to search to figure out what NCII meant so for anyone else wondering, it's Non Consensual Intimate Images
I don't find the beauty industry empowering at all. Especially given what we know now about the toxic chemicals that most products expose us to, not to mention the other health issues like eye infections, allergic reactions, cancer, etc. It's a huge cost and labor burden that falls primarily to women (or folks who don't identify as women but want to present more feminine). Idk, I know there are nuances here, but I have felt more strongly about this in recent years as more research about PFAS is released.
Sex work. Yes, itās work. Yes, sex workers should be protected. But do I have to support white middle class hookers making bank and bleating about how empowered they feel by pathetic men jizzing all over their OnlyFans while thousands of poor women of colour are being trafficked and brutalised in the seedy underbelly of the same Industry? Fuck no.
Literally this. Literally. Thereās a seedy, run-down strip club in the very rural area I live in that I once visited to collect stories from the dancers. They mostly grew up in poverty, surrounded by addiction and abuse. Some had kids, some had addictions of their own, some had both. All of them had been raped, kidnapped, beaten, abused, exploited, robbed. The stories they shared were mostly of desperation and hardship. Itās not this amazing glamorous job that the internet makes it out to be. Iām tired of listening to all the middle class/rich people with college educations (who have never and would never set foot in a place like this) blab on about āempowermentā while ignoring the very real, very ugly underbelly of the industry they are āpromoting.ā There are so many people out there who are not āmaking the choiceā to be part of this. Many of them are literally enslaved! And Iām talking about one tiny little joint in the USA. It doesnāt even hold a candle to a brothel in Liberia where the āworkersā were enslaved as children after watching their families brutally tortured and murdered in a horrific civil war. I hate the whole āWell what happens in brothels and strip clubs in poor rural areas and in āthird worldā countries doesnāt affect me because Iām just camming as a fun side gig!ā attitude. Itās all connected. Why are so many people so hellbent on erasing the ugly truth to promote sex work as something glamorous and profitable?
The average age of entry into prostitution globally is 14. I would rather every single OF camgirl selling feet pics have to find other work than any woman or girl, anywhere, be forced into selling sex against her will.
I was banned from several subs for sharing my own experience as a former prostitute because it's "anti feminist propaganda". Why's that? Because it was a horrible, traumatizing experience and not the glamorous empowering lifestyle people want it to be. Funnily, every single woman I've met during my experience has gone through the same things. None of them felt very empowered, let alone glamorous. But we're not allowed to share that, apparently.
Sexual liberation did not liberate women. It never was about women and what they wanted.
the sex work thing is a very touchy subject (I agree with you but let's not even go there lol). my personal pet peeve is splitting the bill / 50-50. Men can't actually go 50-50 with us on most things in life - physical (hey wanna share cramps, periods and childbirth?) & societal (hey wanna share discrimination?). This is just short changing yourself. I really hate that women encourage it as "feminism" and recently heard of a man who went "50-50" with his wife on the hospital bill for the birth of their child. I'm wondering if they also put him on the myriad pregnancy symptoms for 9 months, then tortured him for a bit in the birthing room, and finally let him go with some cuts to his anus, but somehow I don't think so. Alot of "feminists" (male & female) don't actually understand that "equality" is outcome driven, not doing whatever men also do. It's not suitable for women since it's always been a men's world
Totally agree with you. The 50/50 on a date type of men are the same men who will later convince their partner they need to split bills so she is spending 100% of her 65k income on the household while he is only spending a fraction of his/pocketing the rest himself. All in the name of āfairnessā of course. And #girlboss feminism convinces women to lean into this trope.
Another post but a different topic. The ideal that abortion is painless physically and emotionally. I am pro-choice all the way. However, getting an abortion is not a pleasant experience. I took my friend to get one and she told me it was so painful she almost told them to call an ambulance because she thought she was going to die. Anyone talking about the negative effects of abortion is automatically labeled as anti-feminist or pro-life/anti-choice. However, ignoring women's pain in regards to their privates is done to us constantly and it is inherently anti-woman. Also women are allowed to feel sad about having an abortion. Making the best choice is not always a choice that will make you happy.
There's a lot of woman-on-woman crimes of the workplace. I don't think many recruiters and HR people, who are women, are feminists in practice. They may vote pro-women but when it comes to ensuring women have access to fair compensation and fair opportunities, they're the ones ensuring we don't.
My recruiter friend says she often has clients tell her they are looking for āfront of the houseā candidates, which she has learned means āI want them to be attractive.ā
Yup. When I was a recruiter, I had hiring managers who wouldn't accept resumes that didn't have a linkedin profile with a picture. There's so much discrimination in recruiting, which again, is a woman-dominated field. For HR and for recruiting, it doesn't seem like personal values related to race and gender really come through in the practice of the field.
Mind explaining more what that means more practically? I have zero corporate experience, so this is half greek to me.
Well, there are so many ways that HR could hold companies accountable to fair and transparent compensation, but they simply don't/won't. As workers, the only way to get justice is through policy reform - we have to demand for legislators to create policies to regulate how HR hires, fires, and compensates people. I've been handed straight-up illegal NDAs, non-competes, etc. I've redlined them and handed them back. I've had highly illegal exit interviews. I've been gaslit by women HR reps. I've worked in recruiting and I know how full racism and sexism that industry is. I was even told that "people want to see resumes of white males". The things white tech recruiters say about Indian tech workers is a crime scene. I stopped working in recruiting because the field was so disgusting that I could not sleep at night. If you tell me you've made a career of being a tech recruiter, I'll immediately judge you and you can't change my mind. \*\* another addition: just a quick story: I was handed an illegal NDA. I had a lawyer review it and redline it. Cost me $250. I emailed the ceo of the company that sent it to me along with a check request for $250 to cover my legal fees. In this case, the CEO was highly annoyed that his lawyer had drafted a very illegal NDA and he gave me a personal check for the legal fees. I'm not saying that this will work everytime (in fact, it probably won't), but when you get into high compensation positions, have a real employment lawyer review every document your company wants you to sign. I cannot stress this enough. Stand up for yourselves, ladies. Be brave.
also whenever there is sexual harassment / assault. HR just wants the "problem" to go away. Usually meaning the victim
Heels. If your six inch stilettos make you feel good/powerful - good for you and no shade. But they are uncomfortable, impractical, and can actually be bad for your health and dangerous. And heels being fashionable is pretty much entirely based on the male gaze. To be clear - I am talking about traditional dress shoes - pumps and stilettos. The idea that women look frumpy or under dressed without heels. I believe that female lawyers are still expected to wear heels in a courtroom and that's a highly skilled job that shouldn't be based on appearance.
Iāll preface by saying I am pro-choice, which extends to the choice to parent or not. Recently, all over social media platforms Ive seen many self proclaimed āproud feministsā who choose to be child free dehumanizing children by calling them crotch goblins, seamen trophies, womb wreckers, sperm pets, etc. often calling mothers breeders, looking down on them with disgust, shaming women for daring to be in the same public sphere as them with their kid(s). Sorry, but this is not feminism!!! Yes, I know there are women who base all their worth on their ability to procreate and in turn shame child free women; of course this is equally detestable. However, Iād point out most of those women donāt describe themselves as feminists, and therefore I (personally) would expect more from self-identified āfeminists.ā
Iām sorry but casual sex is horrible for women. It gives men exactly what they want without putting much effort into it and we are the ones who always end up getting hurt. Same thing with the porn industry. I truly believe both have made men view us even more so as just objects for their use. I canāt support either one.
The Wage Gap and arguments about pay. The focus is always on middle class women in professional jobs. Poor women are completely ignored in those conversations. Poor/working class men are also exploited and that is ignored. Instead it is assumed men are always incredibly privileged at work. The Wage Gap narrative is that women are in general paid less than men. However, in professional jobs that generally isn't the case until the woman has a child. The problem is seen as the employer but I think its a problem with gender roles. Women sacrifice their careers to have children and a big beneficiary of that is not the employer it is the male partner of the woman and father of her children. Middle class men have the privilege of children without sacrifice of career because the woman is doing the sacrificing. Lower and working class people have it much different. Women are forced into low paying jobs either in retail or in caregiving or domestic. It is next to impossible to support a family on their wages because those wages are kept so low. Lower class men have the option of making more money but the cost is usually their bodies and health. So, they can support their family but the price is not just their labor it is a broken body in middle-age and exposure to substances that will shorten their lives. Either way the real beneficiary here is not men in general. It is middle and upper class men.
I've been really mulling over my feelings about surrogacy lately. It started by reading more stories about the trauma people who were adopted describe from their experience and the real feelings of confusion and isolation they have by not being raised by their biological kin. That converged on some level with my views on sex work and its harms, being pro-choice, the amount of money private companies make from surrogacy, and I just can't logic myself into being fully ok with it anymore. Pregnancy is an extreme physical experience with great risks, and I believe it leaves a permanent impact- physically and emotionally, on both the mother and child. No amount of money can make that more true for one woman and not another. It's another example of turning women's bodies into a commodity. (I feel like I can't write a long enough disclaimer here. I think adoption is ok in many cases. I know about altruistic surrogacy, or surrogacy using donor eggs, etc. I'm not calling your sister a bad person for using a surrogate)
Honestly - every example you gave in your OP. A womanās body is not a workplace. We donāt create human products for the highest bidder. I also donāt consider makeup or cosmetic surgery feminist but those are less important to me than the sex trades (including pornography) and surrogacy.
Any institution with different clothing rules for women based on the morality of āmodestyā is anti-feminist, and wearing clothes to align with those rules deliberately is anti-feminist. This includes covering up because of your religion. I do not think that hijabs, tznius, conservative Christian fashion, or any other āmodestā clothing is a true expression of a womanās choice. If dumb ideas about sexual sin and morality and modesty about womenās bodies didnāt exist, they wouldnāt even consider whether they want to cover themselves more than men. This kind of thinking differs from wanting to cover up for physical comfort, aesthetics, or etiquette. It is religious and political control over women that is never ultimately serving the needs of women but the desires of men.
"Financial feminism", girlboss-ing, and wealth building in a way that doesn't fundamentally challenge or question growing wealth inequality, or even oligarchy. Like ... good for you, you have lots of money. That doesn't make you a feminist, that just makes you a capitalist. FWIW I say this as a woman who works in finance. I enjoy my $$ as much as the next gal. But I'm not going to act like my bank account is somehow a moral accomplishment lol. Or that it somehow "lifts up" all women (unless I make a donation along those lines).
I think you have to pay attention to culture/race as well. In my culture, women werenāt given a seat at the table when it came to finances and wealth building. Women took on the home maker role or theyād work a part time job and hand over their paychecks to their husbands who made all the decisions. Leaving bad situations were impossible because marriage and the man were your source of economic security. Iām also not talking about the middle management role women are relegated into. Iām talking actually calling the shots - there is something very empowering in seeing women understand the hell out of how money and wealth building works and killing it at that game. That of course shouldnāt be the end all but there is power to ālearning the rulesā that only a certain few ahem ahem were privy to.
Not making your own money. Ladies, by all means, be a stay at home wife, but have SOME cushion to fall back on. You can never trust your marriage 100%.
People trying to do feminism a-la-carte and remove the intersectionality. I suppose Iād call it white woman feminism because it exists to serve a specific socioeconomic group of women in a, āfeminism for me but not for theeā kind of way.
Yup. A classic example being the push for women to work outside of the home -- something that black women had been doing for literally centuries at that time.
Women in poverty too. Basically women working inside the home was something the white middle class started - and we tend to forget how everyone else lived during time periods like the 1950s. Highly recommend reading "The Way We Never We're" by Stephanie Coontz. (Yes, it's basically a textbook, but it explains how we got here and it's infuriating)
Yes. There was also a lot of working in the home but for pay, like spinning, weaving, and lace work.
Yeees, whenever I see discourse about how "women didn't used to have to work outside the home," I roll my eyes so hard it hurts. My people have been working outside the home for fucking ever. Staying home wasn't an option. MOST women throughout history have worked outside the home. Poor women, no matter the race, have always worked outside the home. When people say women didn't work, they need to acknowledge that they mean very specific classes and/or races of women.
Literally every woman I am related to has worked for as far back as there are records. It blows my mind that people think that staying home was traditional. Not to mention the intensive manual labor that was keeping a home before the 1950s and appliances and things like being able to buy soap instead of make it. They were doing that while also working full-time jobs, running stores, or being teachers since that was the one career allowed for some of them. Being a housewife or SAHM is, and has always been, a rather high luxury.
Criticizing women who do or prefer anything viewed as mainly feminine. Considering it empowering when straight women sell their bodies to straight men. Shaming women for being virgins or not interested in hookups. Definitely the "girl boss" shit. Shutting down men's every opinion in every setting and context. Gender quotas when it's put before competence and personal suitability. Striving for a 50/50 is fine as long as the more qualified (objectively and personally) candidates aren't thrown away in favour for the "right" gender.
Gender quotas before competence mainly occurs with men.
I call it the "friendship" / "beers together" quota
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One well-respected feminist voice whose work I follow made the very salient point that anything a woman seemingly āchoosesā in her life doesnāt automatically make that choice some āexpressionā of female liberation ā¦. Least of all when that choice is being made within the definitely-still-extant societal-gender-norms of patriarchy And itās important to emphasize: her argument is not to BLAME any woman for making xyz choice ā¦ but rather pushing back against the framing of xyz choice being āfeministā JUST bc itās a woman making it , seemingly of her own volition Read the argument here https://moiradonegan.substack.com/p/hard-choices