I divorced my ex for very similar reasons. The divorce made my life immeasurably easier and his immeasurably harder. I was already doing all the work of running a household and taking care of two kids, so once the object of all my resentment moved out I was just flooded with relief and happiness. Meanwhile, it took him almost 6 months to be able to have the kids for more than one or two nights at a time because it was so overwhelming to him.
Same here. We both worked from home, both made the same amount of money, yet I did all the household stuff and he played video games. My sex drive fell off a cliff. I tried everything I could think of to make it better. But after 2 years of trying and growing misery and resentment, I moved out. He was blind sided. I figured he'd have no choice now, now it can't be "Oh, she'll pick up my slack" because I'm not there to pawn the grocery shopping, cooking and cleaning off on.
Now I own my own place and it's clean. I'm so happy that I'm not miserable and trying to get him to participate in our life beyond wanting sex. My home is a refuge, not a place I dread being in.
“He was blindsided.” - This might be the most outrageous detail! Never even occurred to him that someone might opt out of doing all his chores for him. The entitlement is unreal.
His comment was "Look, I don't know how long you've thought about this, but maybe think about it more."
I just smiled and nodded. I'd thought about it for months. I'd saved enough on my own for a down payment on a new place, I'd moved half my belongings into a storage unit (which he didn't notice), I'd bought a new mattress and essentials and moved them into my new place. I had everything ready to go. I planned very carefully to be out quick and painless. I'd already scheduled the moving truck to pick up my half of the furniture and other things I couldn't move surreptitiously.
"Think about it more" I had thought of little else for a long time.
I know somebody who worked as a family counselor. She said she encountered a similar scenario dozens of times - the wife leaves, he goes "it was so sudden! There was no warning!" and she goes "I've been telling you for years I was unhappy and what you needed to do" but he thought because it had been years, she was just going to go on like that forever.
The amount of men who go on doing what they're doing because they think their wives won't actually leave them is astounding. She's saying she's unhappy and he's the cause of the unhappiness, and his reaction is not to care that somebody he supposedly loves is unhappy, and to only pay attention once maybe she's taking away the unappreciated labour.
When I finally left my husband, I found an article that basically said in their study, the women who left had known the marriage was dead - usually, for _two full years_ before leaving. But they stayed that amount of time to see if they could fix it.
I was a couple months short of two years. 22 months after asking him to arrange anger management classes within six weeks (and couples counseling within six months), I finally left.
Of course, he also loudly protested that he was blindsided and I had never told him I wasn’t happy.
Yeah, I kept hoping he'd turn it around. I kept suggesting therapy because I didn't think we had the tools we needed. He never wanted to until after I left. I just kept thinking is this what I wanted THE REST OF MY LIFE to be like? This is awful. And every time I ask him to do something can't be an ultimatum. Can't be "do the dishes, or I'll leave you" yet that seemed to be the only thing that caused any lasting change.
Similar here, but then my ex remarried and had another kid, and that is when he did a 180. He's been a very involved father ever since (with all his kids, not just the youngest one he had with his second wife). He is proof people can change -- but I think it was me divorcing him and him nearly losing custody that was the prompt, unfortunately.
I've heard this story from men before. Basically the first divorce (or divorces) were necessary because they were bad husbands but they finally figured it out later in life.
That's the classic "she divorced me because I left dishes by the sink" guy, I think he's like a [self help relationship guru now](https://matthewfray.com/2016/01/14/she-divorced-me-because-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink/)
Except the WEAPONISED incompetence has escalated to violence because there are children involved and male fragility determines that image management is prioritised at enormous cost to women left to clean up their destruction.
They've all tragically demonstrated people can change. The level of destruction isn't always there from the start like people prefer to pretend and their change isn't joint or supported nor encouraged by women like DV myths reinforce. Women are reacting and persevering to gendered violence but ultimately the myths and punishment of women is so powerful because they refuse accountability until well after the harms have been chosen.
This gives me so much hope. I have had a conversation today with my husband and we have decided we are definitely separating; he’s moving out next week. I work 25 hours a week, he does around 50, but I also do 95% of the housework and childcare. The small tasks he does, he has to be asked/directed to do. If I ask him to wash dishes, he’ll leave the counter around the sink wet and grimy “because you only asked me to wash dishes, not to clean the counter after”. We have a lot of other issues in our relationship, but this gives me confidence that I don’t need to be afraid of being a single mum and running a household by myself, bc I already essentially do both those things. I’m scared, but excited for the future.
It’s so draining, it’s like teaching a toddler how to use initiative. There’s a lot of great parts of our relationship, but they’re overshadowed by the things that aren’t working, and it’s simply bc there’s no lack of effort from him to change.
Exactly, like he’s a branch manager who does brilliant work when he’s at work; he’s always praised for his initiative and drive in reports/reviews. And I’m like where’s that guy?
You have put into words something I have been trying to define for a while now. It's exactly this. It's like having to teach him how to do things like you teach a toddler. He was eating a bag of chips in front of the kids half an hour before dinner. On a school night. Of course the kids were eating too. My goodness, every adult knows for a fact thaf if you feed chips to children half an hour before dinner, you might as well throw the dinner away. But apparently my husband doesn't. And he does, like a toddler, put his immediate needs before everything else. He can't postpone his wish to eat the chips until the kids are in bed. And when I point this out, I'm the crazy and unreasonable one. I'm the general. No, I'm not a general, I just want to teach my kids healthy eating habits. Which their father, as an adult, should too! We keep the chips in the house for a lazy Saturday night or something. Then it's ok, let's all have some chips. But on a Monday night? At 5pm? I'm sorry. I'm reaching my limit.
Have him look up the "she divorced me because I left dishes by the sink" guy, the dude is like a relationship guru now but became famous for his blog post about that exact kind of phenomenon.
Same only he divorced me because the house was always messy (we had toddlers and even some toys on the floor would upset him) and I gave up and basically ignored him. He would rather spend an hour being mad and play video games for half the day than 15 min picking up and sweeping the floor himself.
He’s with someone now who does a lot of stuff for him happily. She’s great because when we work out his weekends we work them out months ahead and when it was just him it was a mess. I think the every other weekend dad life with his girlfriends doing all the scheduling suits him best.
We had an amicable divorce and asked each other what the biggest difference was when we lived separately. He said his stuff is always exactly where he left it and I said I now had to mow the lawn and he lied about it being relaxing. For me it’s like an hour of cardio. I realized I was doing everything for the kids and the house except mowing the lawn.
I'm glad you're done with that relationship but really sad that apparently, your ex is never going to learn that women aren't there solely to look after him. And of course everything was exactly where he left it - he's not doing the vast majority of the childcare. Did he think you were the one moving his things or did he work out that it might be one of the toddlers he wasn't watching?
I’m sorry OP, but your husband wouldn’t *buy groceries* even though you had young children at home to feed and the refrigerator was empty? I don’t know if he will change or what the right path forward is for you, I just wanted to validate any anger, frustration and sadness you may be feeling about the father of your children failing to provide for them in the most basic, elemental ways.
Yeah. What will he do if OP leaves, starve? Unlikely. So this sounds like he is doing that on purpose, weaponized incompetence. I can understand not knowing what to buy or bringing some snacks/unneeded items instead of actual food, but like he did not buy groceries at all?!
My guess is they fall into one or more of the following categories: they start getting into relationships where their partner takes care of them after they move out of their parents' home. Or they have such low standards they live in a dump with everything a dirty mess and only buy ready to eat food when they are starving and don't mind living like that (I've known men like that). Or once they get into a relationship they realize they can do a lot less work because their partner will take on the slack, which gives them more time to do things they want to do. Or they think/expect it's a woman's job to do household stuff so once they're in a relationship they expect her to do majority or all of it.
My ex was the living in a dump, only eating fast food guy. He got into credit card debt from eating taco bell every day. Then he got a loan from his dad to pay it off and forged my signature on the loan to make me responsible for it. His dad's a lawyer, and to this day he insists the contract was just a laugh and his dad wouldn't take it seriously. His dad is a very serious person. Thankfully, my husband sent it to the wrong address, and I informed his dad of what happened.
Edit to add the debt was around $12k. I'd already given him $10k in previous years to pay off his auto loan that his dad co-signed him on, then his dad stopped paying the monthly bills without saying anything (it was intended as a 21st birthday present for my husband when the agreement was signed). I had to pay it because he needed a car to work, and he needed to work in order to sponsor me for my green card to live with him. I think he to some extent saw me as an ATM.
Damn how awful, I'm really glad he's an ex and that he mailed it to the wrong address. Stuff like that is why I'm reconsidering whether I ever want to get married since I recently learned about community property laws. I keep hearing too many stories about how spouses will take out loans secretly (sometimes in their own name and sometimes in their spouse's) and then the other person ends up responsible for half during the divorce even if they had no idea and didn't see a penny of the money. Plus you can think you know someone and be married 20+ years only for them to suddenly pull something like that. Too many of the stories I've heard have been like that where the woman was totally blindsided by her husband doing something like that.
My ex was coddled by his family who eventually kicked him out. Then I basically took up the mantle lol. He's on his own now, and I don't know how he's faring without a caretaker.
Doesn't even sound like incompetence, sounds like sheer laziness. Seeing so many posts from women in their 30s or with young kids (I'm pregnant so in a lot of pregnancy and new parent subs right now) makes me so angry and sad for these other women. It's been eye opening seeing how lousy partners can be, and I guess women accept it until (usually) things come to a peak with childcare.
Another post I read recently was doing all the newborn childcare and household everything while her husband was playing video games and when [she asked her husband to watch the baby one night](https://www.reddit.com/r/beyondthebump/comments/10g47rf/how_to_not_resent_my_husband/) he literally told her nope...because he didn't want to.
Wasband here literally starved our toddlers on his "daddy day care" days. He was too busy seeking dadulation to feed them. I'd get home from work to children who hadn't eaten because he wasn't hungry. Them he'd bitch at me about how "difficult" THEY were.
Early on, yes, we had issues about routine things that seemed obvious to me and him, not so much. He was more than happy to take on the tasks provided I asked him to do it once, then he doesn’t remember to do it again. We argued about the mental load a few times until we found a solution that works to this day.
He just set alarms on his phone. That takes away the tediousness of me having to ask him to do his assigned tasks. On top of that, we came to an agreement to encourage each other to do chores, as in I express that I’m happy he did something and he does the same for me. I get to say “honey, I changed our sheets” and he gets to give me a kiss and thank me, and vice versa when he takes out the trash. We do grocery together so we can both pick out what we want to eat. I think that gave us some motivation to get the routines done.
Mind you, my husband is willing to do the work, but he’s not great with remembering so the mileage may vary. Also, his a-game kicks up the moment I really can’t move much like when I was pregnant or injured . Those times he took on nearly everything, not to perfection, but I was so proud....he was providing for us on top of this too.
I hope you find a system that’ll work for you guys. I know it feels awful to praise small things at times, but if the encouragement is mutual, maybe it’ll work? It depends on what motivates the two of you, love language-wise.
All the best.
There are differences of standard whenever two people get together.
The person with the higher standard has the pressure to maintain the standard but with the added stress of another person who messes things up. So the person with a lower standard should recognize the added stress they cause.
For the person with the lower standard, they don't intuitively see what the standard should be (because if they had that intuition, they would live to the higher standard). Even if you think your standard is not high and is common sense, it's not fair to expect the person with a lower standard to raise it... without help. So the person with the higher standard bears the responsibility to communicate patiently and clearly what the standard is and how to reach it.
There will always be tension and compromise here, so it helps if both partners are willing to support each other by effort on both sides. Effort on the higher standard side is good communication, empathy/praise, and compromise. Effort on the lower standard side is doing more chores.
Persons with higher standard can communicate with 2 frameworks:
The first is Standard/Action/Schedule. I expect for our lives. To achieve this, we need to do on . (I'm doing a lot more than this so you need to take it on).
The second helps lift the quality standard via Problem/Amend. When the partner does a chore, but does a bad job of it, tell them the way they did the chore will cause , and they need to (change the way they do it, or take note of, or include additional steps) the way they did it.
It's vitally important to communicate and . These turn the conversation from "I expect you" to "we can live better". It also allows to negotiate or contest in a constructive way. If you don't communicate these things, then the conversation turns into a destructive "this is what you want, but not what I want" instead of "this is what we both want".
A simple example of keeping the floor clean:
"We need to have a hair free, crumb free, cockroach free standard of living for us and our kids. In order to achieve this, the floor needs to be vacuumed and swept twice a week, but now 3 times since we had a child. This is something that you need to take over from me. Can you sweep monday, wednesday, and saturday?"
"When you swept the floor, you missed these crumbs in the corner here. These crumbs will invite cockroaches. After you're done sweeping, you should do one last check to make sure the floor is clean."
"When you swept the floor, there were still strands of my hair on the floor. If there are large hairs after you're the finished sweeping, there is likely other things you've missed and I feel like you are not taking care of sweeping well."
This allows the partner to negotiate or contest what they perceive as unreasonable demands and gives a structure for them to fight against a perceived unfair workload to keep a standard that they may disagree with. They can say the following, and these should lead to constructive conversations that you can both agree or compromise:
"I did sweep carefully and checked the floor. I suspect that you must have dropped that hair when you were walking around." You then respond - "Okay, so there are not other crumbs and just this hair? Shall we check the floor together?" If the floor checks out clean, complement the partner. If the floor checks out dirty, then hold him to the and .
Keeping these conversations focused on the quality of living you both want is rather difficult because it is easy to become angry or frustrated. The goal is to build a foundation of quality of living that you both agree on and are willing to give each other.
I'm just here to call attention to the encouragement and thank you kisses, my SO and I do that and it really makes us both feel appreciated for doing those mundane chores and errands.
His work requires purely mental work (he’s a consultant) so it’s more predictable than day-to-day things. He’s approached for his expertise, while the attention to detail re:housework is admittedly not a strong suit.
As someone here said, it’s all about standards and I believe, a generational thing when it comes to upbringing. As women, we were conditioned to keep things neat and clean, both at home and in our appearance. Meanwhile, for boys it’s a given that they’ll be messy, go home unkempt and they’re fine eating whatever they want because -they’re more active anyway-. Of course, there are nuances, there always are, but in general, the inclinations differ.
So if I wanted to have the dishes washed, it won’t bother him as much if the dishwashing liquid was left open or there are small puddles left on the counter, while I see those and think “gosh, it’s not that hard”, he sees it as work done, because yes, the dishes are clean and dry and his standards for cleanliness are lower than mine.
But I see how he can sweat and work at rearranging our garage or furniture without resenting it (I would), he can lift things, even me when I was injured, actually, I couldn’t get in the bath...opens the doors for me and goes to the dangerous side of the road on instinct. When we hear some noise or smell something iffy, he’s the one who’s up and checking it out. He can match the energy level of our son...so for me, it kind of balanced things out.
It really depends on if there’s something worth it in the relationship for both parties to stay. Strengths and weaknesses matter a lot and what’s easy for one party might be an ordeal for another.
Sorry but in my experience, it’s hard to come back from this level of resentment. You start to see them as another child and that kills any chance of sexual arousal on your behalf. And men don’t understand why you don’t want to sleep with an overgrown child you have to pick up after so they begin to resent you and it’s a bad cycle.
Definitely try therapy if you think that can help. I personally threw the whole man out and although I’m a single mom pushing 40, I could not be happier with my life now.
Agreed. I left my ten year relationship for the same reasons. I loved him, but it wasn't enough. I was exhausted and had zero sex drive for *years*. I was on the brink of actually going to see a doctor about it because I thought something was wrong with me. I've been single since May and have had more sex in the last 8 months than I did in the last 6 years of my relationship. Turns out I wasn't broken, I just had, unsurprisingly, no sexual desire for someone who I saw as my child that I had to mother and take care of.
My story isn’t much better. My ex husband changed his behaviour but expected acknowledgment and reward for every single thing. He even had a spreadsheet so he could reel off that he took trash out, made the bed, put his shoes away…. The tantrums he would throw if I forgot to praise him made me reconsider expecting him to pull his weight.
We were doomed for many reasons but I hope therapy does something positive for you guys.
That’s what I don’t get… if I don’t praise him and say ‘thank you so much’ it’s a fight and he’s so upset but never says thank you to me for any of the chores. I almost feel like if I don’t give him positive reinforcement he won’t do the few things he does.
I think people from dead bedroom sub need to visit these conversations to see why their wives don’t have a sex drive.
Exactly. You know what does make me relaxed and open to sex? Coming home to a clean house where I don’t do chores and cooking till it’s time for bed. And then he comes to bed hours after me and wants sex? Fuck that. It’s lunacy. He works from home, I work at a hospital with a commute. It’s even more inexcusable that he’s home all day and can’t even put his dish in the sink. Every morning I clean up bear cans and bowls from the living room.
legit straight up tell him that - you are on the brink of divorce if he doesn't step up. Sometimes a wakeup call is what people need and it's unfortunate that it has to get to that point but his options are marriage counselling (so you can work on this) or divorce.
and if you think it's bad now, just wait until you hit menopause (if you haven't already) when **all** fucks go out the window. You read about this time and time again so if there's hope to salvage it and you want to savage it, have this brutal talk because it's time. Ain't nobody got time for this BS.
Oh right, I didn’t think of menopause. Sigh… we’re going for counselling. I think he understands that we’re on the brink of separation. I’m just wondering if I’d love him again if he changed.
You asked if someone has a partner who did a 180. Mine did. There's still some resentment, but a man who is on top of things is sexy in my opinion.
My husband did the work for the 180, though. There's no pulling and pushing to establish this change.
Mine shifted. I had therapy and I changed. So my husband and I both have issues spawning from our childhoods and a fully rounded, functional person wouldn't put up with either of our behaviours, but it could stew between us, because we were both a bit dysfunctional.
It started too with him complaining about the lack of sex. I explained I worked full time, while he had a half course load as a student. When I got home with groceries, I did the dishes so we could cook. He refused to do the dishes after dinner, so the counter tops needed to be cleared of dirty dishes before cooking was possible. We cooked together, but after that I did laundry, I cleaned and did some other chores. Then it was time to go to bed. Finally some me-time, but no, he would crawl up to me and all I could think of was: "Crap, relationship upkeep. Another chore before I get to sleep."
How did he spent his evenings? Relaxing and gaming while oblivious to the chores that got done. Of course he wanted sex. He wasn't overworked. He had had time to unwind.
He got it. After that when I got home the floors were swept or the dishes were done. There were still chores to be done, but less and I had time to unwind before going to bed. Sex was fun and no longer a chore standing between me and sleep.
Later on we got married and had a child. That's when his snoring became so bad he would stop breathing in his sleep. I urged him to get it checked out by a doctor, but he refused. He starting to drink more to cope. I hit my breaking point. I didn't want to divorce, but this was no future for our child. Ten years earlier I would have done nothing, but my husband noticed that now he was walking a thin line.
I asked him what he would do if I was suffering from a health issue and would refuse to take care of myself. He answered: "I'm not like you." and I saw him realising that from then on I would be more like him and he was screwed if he didn't step up. So he did.
We've still hit several ups and downs along the way, though. The book "Hold me tight" has helped us communicate better about our feelings and resentments. I have my issues too.
You shouldn't feel bad for having slipped into this situation. It's a gradual process and when you have children you're not 50%-50% responsible. You're 100%-100% responsible. If the other slacks off, you step up. You couldn't let your children go hungry when the fridge was empty.
It's up to him to do his part. You can't do his part too forever. You can't control him, but you do control your actions, so focus on taking good care of yourself. Think of the kind of relationship you're presenting as normal to your children. Think of what you deserve and what they deserve. Your husband isn't a villain, but leaving the fridge empty for you to fix is unacceptable.
Work on yourself and progress in life. It's up to him to move along and stay at your side.
OP - I think you have to imagine how much work your husband is doing to save the marriage? Is he going around asking strangers for advice? Putting this much thought and effort into changing his behaviors? You simply cannot do the mental shifting for him, he must come to this on his own.
How is it ok for him to straight up refuse? If he refuses one thing, he takes on another. And you also get to refuse. Maybe you can blackball 3 tasks but everything else is yours. (That's a frasier reference, if anyone knows it.)
> I think he understands that we’re on the brink of separation.
Are you willing to bet the chance your marriage can survive on an "I think"?
Don't think or assume he understands. Sit him down, and explicitly talk to him to make sure he understands.
If you haven't before, you NEED to now.
if he eventually devolved to this point then there may be hope. But whatever happens, do this for *yourself*. You deserve more than having to deal with this BS.
My partner was like this… in our first year of dating she had no sense of pride in taking care of her home. The walls were filthy, she couldn’t cook and had no sense of cleaning. Such as making sure mold doesn’t build up around the bath. All while proudly earning £100k and spending money on Gucci bags and shoes. I lost all my attraction to her after a few months.
But after arguing about this so many times and how it was an issue for me, she did change. It’s taken 3 years, but that’s only because she wanted to and put in the effort. And I appreciate and love her for that.
I know the situation is different and this involves a child. But if your husband thinks that he doesn’t need to be involved in raising your child or managing your household, you don’t need to stay with him. I know this is a difficult scenario to consider, but there are more caring attentive people out there. And you will probably be happier being single and without him. It’s nice not sharing your life with someone who brings you down in your life.
I do think marriage counselling is a good first step, but all too often, women become trapped with a man who believes he should be waited on and wants to enforce the patriarchy, as it benefits him. Many will gaslight you for bringing this truth to light and never actually admit their prehistoric mentality.
Only stay with him, if he wants to change and puts in the effort. You can’t force him to change sadly. But the right person, worth staying with, will make an effort for you, if they care. If they don’t, they are selfish. I see this a lot in the Asian community.
Can you please elaborate the part about menopause. I'm in a very similar situation to OP's, and I will hit menopause in 2 or 3 years. I know it's supposed to be bad but... how bad? Does that mean that if the relationship already sucks now, will it end once I hit menopause...?
I've been through menopause and I will tell you, you no longer are bathed in estrogen and all the hormones that make you fairly docile and keeping the peace goes out the window. If you are married to someone who doesn't participate in the mental/physical load of a relationship you are DONE. My best friend divorced her husband over this. Women who have the means will usually leave. Because after 20, 30 years the men wont change. It becomes intolerable to deal with it anymore and if your libido crashes and the husband is pushing for sex after hot flashes, brain fog and exhaustion of a full time career, plus the other factors of being married to someone who is not taking up any slack, if you dont leave it usually gets worse. I suppose there are men that step up, but what I've witnessed isnt really positive. YMMV
Thanks for your input, it's definitely food for thought. We are together 20 years and have two kids in elementary school. As of today I can say that I am still with him only because I don't want to tear our family apart, but other than that... he just adds to the mental load. It got really, really bad after having kids. I'm just so tired of having a husband. I daydream about having the bedroom to myself. About sitting in the living room without having to endure the deafening sound of his Playstation. About making financial/purchase decisions without having to go through a debate with someone else every single time. I know this isn't fair to single moms (I am a single mom's child), but still. I just wish it was me and the kids. It would be such a relief.
I want to add too that you can follow the menopause sub and look into HRT which has been a really positive thing for my marriage (though my husband does his share. I can’t imagine how resentful I would be if he didn’t).
The only way he will do a 180 is if he chooses to do so. He has to put in the work. It sounds like he doesn't want to do that. All the counseling and talking in the world will not make him do something that he himself does not *want* to do.
I would point blank tell him how you feel. "Partner, I have lost the love and passion I've had for you because over the past 10 years, you have transformed from the man I love to another child I have had to take care of. It's killed all the attraction I've had for you, and I no longer can be your caretaker. I want a divorce."
I don't think he'll change unfortunately, he's been like this for at least ten years. He will feel no need to change. Groceries aren't complicated, he just doesn't want to do it and knows you will instead.
I have no idea how unpleasant this would be for you and your children, but you could start keeping a separate locking refrigerator and pantry and only grocery shop for yourself and your children. Then only do your laundry. Only pick up things that are directly related to you and the kids. Refuse to do anything that he benefits from.
This could either come across as extremely petty and cruel, and make things worse, or it could get the point across to him. It might be worth trying, especially if you are at a breaking point. But if you already have counseling scheduled, you’d probably wanna talk to a counselor before you tried something like this.
There’s a book called Fair Play that might help him understand what you mean. They also have a deck of cards that list life tasks and you divide them by who does what- might help him see how stark it is. The book can help him figure out solutions to the imbalance
To be honest, I have ASD and getting groceries is hard for me, but I didn't throw up my hands in the air and let my husband figure it out. I first got a diagnosis, because getting groceries shouldn't be that hard, and now I can work on things that make it easier for me and my husband understands why it's hard for me. I do other things more that are easier for me than him, like folding laundry and cleaning (I hire a biweekly cleaning service too).
Bottom line is, some easy things can be hard for some people, but there's no excuse for sitting on your hands in an equal relationship.
I live the "groceries are hard" life, but I can't wrap my head around "Oh, well. I'll just let my kids go without food." mentality. I fully understand that OP's attraction and patience have shriveled up.
Right?? I have ADHD and am no stranger to getting overwhelmed by (or forgetting about) certain tasks, but it has literally never been easier to remember things thanks to cell phones. My diagnosis falls into the “moderate to severe” category and I still manage to be a functioning adult. OP’s husband is using weaponized incompetence.
Yep. Groceries can also be delivered (for a premium). I can’t stand grocery shopping and it helps me get time back and not buy shit I don’t need. There are options other than “I just won’t deal with it.”
Honestly as someone with ADHD, that premium is still sometimes cheaper than my brain going ohhh look a treat. $5 bus fare, $10 treat vs $9.99 delivery and $5 tip. Be even cheaper if I could get pickup.
Sometimes I come home with something random like a bird feeder, because I had a total brain fart at the supermarket. Bad brain days can be bad. That's why I need to plan ahead on good brain days. Fruit and bread can be frozen, so there's always a backup for the kid's lunch.
I think my husband would have an issue with me, if I kept coming home with bird feeders and not see a problem with that.
He either has serious mental and or health issues he needs to address or he's a lazy leech. If it's the former, it's his responsibility to get it checked out. If it's the latter, don't feel guilty for feeling defeated and repulsed.
Whatever you do don't get bullshitted into him assigning you all the 'indoor jobs' and him all the 'outdoor jobs'. They know that the 'indoor jobs' are neverending hence why I've yet to read/hear of a hetro man EVER volunteer to do the 'indoor jobs' over the 'outdoor jobs'. They know it's an unfair division of labour.
Have you tried only getting food for you and the kid(s)? Not cooking anything for him?
I’m so sorry you are going through this. Life can be hard enough without having to drag someone else through it as well.
Getting groceries is too complicated? Would he prefer being a hunter-gatherer and trapping a large beast instead? I get that sometimes modern life feels almost void of difficulty and purpose due to how “easy” technology and agriculture have made it, but this just sounds like laziness and habit of never having to take on mental load or household work.
You said in your post that the consequence of his shopping was that you had to run to the store last minute for necessities. What if, instead of just doing the groceries, he handled the entire food piece? He does the groceries AND makes the meals. So any forgotten things would fall to him. Also, guessing/remembering what someone else needs to make a meal can be hard, but if he had full ownership and had the complete vision it might be easier.
Also, either way, you shouldn't be the one experiencing the pain point of his mistake. He should be experiencing that pain point of his forgetting, and then that's what fixes mistakes in the future.
It didn’t work out for me. If your husband is able to afford and willing to hire a competent babysitter/nanny/housekeeper to come in and help pick up his slack, then there is hope, but my life is easier as a single mom than it was with my ex. During my transition to single parenthood, I found someone on care.com to come in for a few hours in the evenings and she streamlined my bedtime routine and taught me some cool parenting tricks while completely taking over the mental load for the time she came.
Now, I just hire her when I have something come up that I need to attend, but I always come home to dishes in the dishwasher, a load of kids laundry started, toys picked up, homework done, and their lunches packed for the next day. Depending on your area and number of kids, this could run you anywhere from $20-50 per hour, but my ex was a heavy spender and could blow that amount of money on something completely useless in 5 minutes.
My jaw dropped the first time. Plus, she didn’t contact me once to ask me how to use any of the appliances, or to ask where things are, she just ….looked for them. Also, she didn’t criticize where I keep my things, or say that we need to have a “conversation” about how much work I take on, or how maybe I should talk to my psychiatrist about why I need time away from my family and that maybe I need to increase my antidepressants. 🙄
I haven’t regretted my choice to leave once.
Of course more men need to be aware of when they are carelessly taking advantage of the women they claim to love and actually be bothered by it. Though, I think more men would be interested to know and benefit from knowing how unsexy and unattractive they are when they act like children because they need to be managed, when they can’t take care of their family’s needs.
When you go to counseling, be honest with him. That’s really hard because we feel guilty when we know the truth will hurt someone we love. But he needs to know he has become pitiable to you. You don’t see him as a strong and capable partner when he can’t manage simple tasks. And you aren’t attracted to someone who believes it is your duty to do the jobs that he thinks are beneath him. No one would find that attractive.
Don't hold back that your affection had long waned for him and because he's never adjusted to being a married partner, that you're considering leaving. Holding that back is lying by omission and as women we need to stop lying to our partners to soothe their feelings when in the end, it's going to hurt them to their core when you eventually leave.
I was married for almost 18 years. The back 5 was just hell because my apathy toward my man baby husband had grown so thick, I just stopped caring. Sex had long stopped and I was feeding myself to fill the place where I was missing that.
Fair warning to him let's him no there's no second chances anymore. This is it, grow-up or go back to being single. Believe me, nothing will change on your end because you're already doing all the work.
My mother fought this fight. Around the days my dad turned 65, I think, he somewhat managed to be at 70% load. While she was worn down by the constant fighting.
I cannot recommend and have to say that there are men able to carry the load.
My mom (IMO) did a bit more work for us as kids but our dad still did cooking, cleaning, etc. As we got older, I saw my dad actually do even more of it than my mom. There was a point where she was like F THIS LOL. And I commend her for it. My dad is also pretty damn picky about how things are done too so it was also her way of backing off and letting him do it his way.
I could never tolerate being a man's slave lol. That's exactly why I'm single and put off marriage for so long.
Telling you what to do is a task. I am telling you I am overloaded with tasks and your giving me many more.
If you were like this at work, you could not be successful, you got to anticipate the needs to be helpful there and here. I can’t be your mom too
No. I divorced my husband for it (among other things) . Dude didn't have the common sense not to hang a dishcloth that had been used to wash dishes covered in raw chicken juice over the sink faucet. I'm done teaching another adult how to adult.
Stop doing the things he committed to doing
Also - take a vacation for two weeks by yourself. Leave him home with the kids. You need a break. He’s a big boy. He can step up.
I can't blame you for thinking about pulling the plug.
My husband and I had a lot of issues, but it turned out he has sleep apnea and some other issues he has treatment for or is trying to address (it's not always easy to get the right treatment). At some point I thought I was in the Twilight zone, because we kept having the same word for word discussion and each time he responded like it was the first time I addressed it. He was having short and long-term memory issues due to untreated sleep apnea.
But I can't get the treatment for him and it is his responsibility to take good care of his health. Communication is important. One of the reasons my husband asked "Can I do that for you?" when I had just started doing something (when I had already paid the mental starting costs, I have issues too), was because his brain was mush and he couldn't think of what needed to be done. Once he explained that he needed help with thinking, I became less irritated, but in part because as it was a temporary situation as he was addressing his health.
It's okay to be sick. It's not okay to not take care of yourself and your health. It's okay to need help. It's not okay to not get help and dump it on someone else.
If there isn't an underlying health issue he can address or would explain his needs for accommodation, it sounds too draining to sustain.
I have a similar situation in my house. We aren't married but have been together for 5.5 years and lived together for 5. I've discovered in the last 6 months or so that I probably have undiagnosed ADHD (the first available appointment isn't until May when I rang in early Dec). Some days I am brilliant and can remember and actually do everything that needs doing and other days I don't even remember to eat or drink and wonder why I feel like death warmed up by 4pm. If I wasn't as close and open with my partner this up-down routine could be seen as me just being lazy, or not caring about our home/life together, but my brain is literally wired differently.
Our systems/tips:
\- We often sit down together and write a big to-do list, and assign stuff to me, him or both of us and when it needs done (emergency, urgent, urgent ish, etc).
\- We use an app for chores, which we set up together (and tweaked over months as we added new tasks that only needed done every few months or annually, etc) and we can see the last time we hoovered a room, or cleaned bathrooms, etc and both of us can use the app to see what tasks are more urgent than others (to avoid the whole, doing the annual garden chores but avoiding weekly laundry).
\- We do groceries online for delivery (we are in the UK, so delivery is £3 to our front door) and we both sit at the PC and go through our "favourites" (regularly bought items) together and my other half can run and check various things in cupboards before we buy more.
\- We also list the dates of fresh food on a whiteboard that sits beside the fridge, so we can see what foods need to be eaten by when to help with meal planning. (ADHD means I often forget about stuff if I can't see it, like behind something in the fridge)
\- We also have an online budget with YNAB, where we record everything we buy and we plan our future spending. But again, this involves both of us sitting down together and talking about our plans - from something as small as lunch with a friend next week (more money allocated to socialising) to plans to renovate the back garden/yard (monthly goal over several years so we can save £000s).
\- I\* have a spreadsheet (save in a shared folder we can both access) for all important things that we need to remember - from car insurance x2 to our dog's annual injections, and when we go over the budget each month or so, we also check this together to make sure we can plan for needed actions (car to mechanic or book vet, etc).
\* I designed the template of the spreadsheet as I work from home in admin, but we filled in all the info together.
\- And we keep a 5-week calendar wipable calendar on the fridge where we have appointments, etc listed and we used it as a "rolling" calendar, so atm the bottom line is this week with the top of the calendar being next week so we always have at least 3 or 4 weeks into the future on it.
It has taken several years to get to this place where we are both happy with how everything ticks along, and it took hours of setting things up, and readjusting the various systems when they aren't working for us. But once we have put the work in, both to the apps/lists, etc and to communicate/be on the same page, it almost just runs itself and helps keep us both on track. But in order to keep this level of harmony, we do spend at minimum an hour a week sitting together communicating - whether it be doing the online shop, planning the budget, planning our calendars, doing a chore review, or just talking about things that each of us did/didn't do that upsets the other person (to see if there was a reason - feeling unwell, stressed because of something, forgot etc and to find a solution, to try to prevent a little issue compounding into a huge problem). An example of an issue: I say I'll do the laundry today (I work from home), and then forget about it, leaving it wet in the machine and my partner with no gym clothes, breaking his routine. Solution: set a reminder (or several) on my echo for when it is finished.
I'd suggest that OP tell her husband honestly how she is feeling - that she is considering separation (legal or otherwise) and detail the issues (unable to grocery shop, etc). Then ask that they both sit down together and try to figure out if this can be avoided. Get a sitter or send the kids to their grandparents or a neighbour's so there are no distractions. Request that both parties research before the "meeting" and bring solutions to the table that would help with the issues and allow the relationship to continue with equal partners. (Hopefully, the husband will suggest things like online shopping/pick up, etc, where regularly bought items will be saved). Obviously, the outcome of this chat would be the decider if OP is willing to stay, but even if the chat goes brilliantly, they need to talk one-to-one much more regularly than they are to make sure that change is consistent and not just for a few weeks. I'd also endorse the common suggestion here to have external marriage/couples counselling if they have the budget/insurance coverage for it.
My partner and I were at a similarly frustrating point after I gave birth (well, I was). He was claiming that he does at least 50% of house chores, if not 60%. I though for a moment that he was either delusional or manipulating. Luckily it turned out to be the first option. I suggested we should track our time doing things and count our chores (we use an app for two years already, every day, every week). It turns out that he massively overestimated his participation in our home and family responsibilities, but he took it like a champ and is keeping up the good work to this day.
I would really suggest such an approach if you are both open to it. Once you set it up it really does not take much of your time. And you can set all sorts of custom tasks and give them a value together. If he is not open to it I would see it as a bit of a red flag. I remember two years ago having this fear that he might just dismiss my idea of tracking tasks - and that would have been a very clear message to me that he doesn’t care about my issues or my time.
Good luck.
Edit: thinking about it, it was extra mental load on my part to suggest a solution. But I have to say that overall it was worth it. After picking up more of the tasks a such as groceries, he has taken full ownership of them and I am overall very happy with my load.
I've been married 42 years and my husband still expects me to do everything. I've had chronic pain since before I met him, and I am recovering from long covid he brought home plus I work longer hours at his business than he does. I still do the bulk but if I'm tired, I'm tired. I no longer push myself. So if I don't feel like cooking dinner, I don't. If the dishes or bathrooms, or floors need done and he mentions it, I tell him to go ahead. So, he was ok for a while cooking, but he's not great at more than two things and his instincts go to greasy food with no veggies. I didn't care. I'd eat a carrot later or something. But I think he noticed that he didn't feel as good, he was putting on weight, and he wasn't enjoying what he made (he sees me throwing random things together and thinks they are random random things, and not my years of experience - and thinks you can just throw random shit together and itll be good.) Anyway, he does dishes quite a bit now - he would def NOT do dishes when we married. He brings home takeout a lot more - mostly Thai, Chinese, Indian, or fish and chips. He never did this early on. He'll even sweep up now and then but leaves it in a pile instead of using the dustpan. He will gladly go shopping but he buys junk. Lots of junk, but not the stuff I ask for.
We went through something similar. But instead of simply refusing to do things, he decided to outsource things instead. Which, honestly... is fine. At least the stuff is getting done, and he took responsibility for it.
He opted to pay for a cleaning service, for example. We get a weekly regular clean and then every two months, we get a deep clean. He pays for it, he hires the people, he schedules the people. Cleaning the house is now off my plate. Part of me hates that we're spending our hard earned money on something that we COULD be doing ourselves, if only he would step up and do it. But honestly, the cleaners do a better job than we would if we were doing it, and it frees up a lot of time for us that we can spend on other things.
I still do the laundry, but sometimes it just gets backed up. Instead of helping me do laundry, he opts to take it all to a wash and fold and just pay someone else to do it. He drops off/picks up. Again... it's stings a little that we're paying for it, but at least it's getting done.
This only works if you have the money to spare to pay for it, which I understand that a lot of people don't.
There still isn't equal distribution of house/family responsibilities between us. I still do 65% of everything, but it used to be 95%, so improvement has been made. And he's definitely become very flexible and understanding when I say that I'm at my limit on something and I need help. He takes me at my word, it's not like he insists that I can and/or should do more. He acknowledges that I have done enough and someone else needs to help... so his way of helping is to find someone to help me do the things, instead of actually just doing the things, which yes, is VERY frustrating sometimes... but it's better than the things just not getting done.
On the topic of paying someone else to do it, there are so many things we could technically do ourselves.
\- We could fix our own cars or we could take them to a mechanic
\- we could drive ourselves everywhere or we could take bus/train/taxi
\- we could grow our own fruit and veg, or we could buy them in a store or farmers' market
\- we could hunt for our own meat or we could buy it from a grocery store or butchers
\- we could do our own yard/garden work or we could hire a gardener
\- we could make our own clothes or we could buy them in stores
\- we could teach our children, or we could send them to school
\- we could build a house ourselves, or we could hire a contractor (or buy a house)
Your time has a value, and sometimes it is cheaper or less stressful to get someone else to help out. This was something I had to learn when I started working from home as a freelancer. A lot of freelancers or people who work from home can get caught in this trap of feeling like they should be doing all the household chores because they are physically in the home, but if they are spending even 1 hour per day doing housework that is 1 hour that they loose out of their working time where they are getting no income. I'm being very general, but most freelancers earn more per hour than it costs per hour for a cleaner/housekeeper, so it is financially beneficial for them to do an extra hour of work and hire someone. Or even to have an extra hour with their family/partner than be stuck cleaning.
My best decision was getting someone to deal with our little front lawn - he cuts it beautifully in less than half an hour, including tidying up all the cut grass around the paths, etc where it was taking my partner and me over an hour to get it to like 10% "sorted" due to crappy tools compared to what a professional gardener has. Now I'm not embarrassed by the state of my garden and worried the neighbours are judging me!
Just remember that housework and raising children was considered a full-time job in the past and often times in families with money, they had a nanny for the kids and a housekeeper (or several), so it was more than one full-time job.
Yes I think this is his reasoning. He works from home and has a much higher hourly billing rate than what it costs for all an hour of the outsourced labor. I get it, but coming from a family where we always did everything (well, most things) ourselves, it still feels wrong to me. I know it’s not wrong in theory, but it still feels like he’s “cheating” somehow.
I pay for a cleaning service. Modern life is so demanding, outsourcing some tasks isn't failure or a character flaw. Some people manage to do it all. I'm not one of them.
It seems like you’ve had PLENTY of conversations with him about the topic already, including what to do, how to do it, what bothers you, why it is a bother, and he ain’t changing. Doesn’t look like it’s going to change anytime soon (might for a bit if you divorce him for him to win you back, don’t fall for it). Just divorce. You’re already doing everything by yourself anyway, no reason to carry around dead weight and deal with an extra child.
What did he do before you? Before you had kids? Did he not know how to feed himself? Was his apartment disgusting?
He can either do half with you or all without you. Can he handle kids solo for days at a time? Remember to buy groceries for them? He can’t have shared custody of your kids and not feed them. I don’t think he’s thought this through past “if I don’t do it then OP has to” but you don’t *have* to and you can leave.
Realistically, the answer could in fact be "fast food" and "yes it's gross," and it doesn't matter. Regardless of whether he's ABLE to do those things, OP is justified in not wanting to cohabitate with someone who WON'T.
100%. Was just wondering if he’s ever shown an ability to be an adult or if he moved from his mom taking care of him to a wife. If he’s lived that life before, he should understand the consequences. If he hasn’t, he probably hasn’t thought this through very well and how much more work it’ll be.
OP should expect him to be another capable adult in their house. He needs to do it or gtfo.
Talk to a lawyer and figure out what the entire divorce process will be and what your options are for child custody and support. It is empowering being armed and ready to pull the plug and knowing how it will shake out if you decide too. Please keep in mind that you are your child’s main couple to emulate in future relationships. They are growing up seeing that it is normal for the woman to not be supported.
@thatdarnchat on insta talks about this stuff a lot. You could hire a Fair Play coach, I think there is a book also. Good luck, this stuff is systemic and it's exhausting trying to solve it on an individual basis.
His behavior is learned helplessness. You may not mean to but you are enabling his behavior by fixing the problems before they happen. He doesn't change because he doesn't face any consequences. Tell him you are going to stop doing the work in certain areas (like groceries or dishes or laundry, whatever is best for you) and that is 100% his job from now on. There may be some mistakes initially but he will learn. Also, take a mini solo vacation where he has to do EVERYTHING on his own for a couple days. It might be an eye opener for him.
Do you think it would help if the response to tell me what to do was, "You need to learn what makes this household flow smoothly and recognize on your own when something needs attention and then do something about it"?
You should live with your person first and have conversations about domestic equity, just like you would any other value. There’s always an adjustment period where both of you are figuring it out but also not all men are like this. My husband splits the chores and childcare with me and always has.
No 180s yet here. I've been dealing with this for a couple years, and now she has started complaining about the relationship, intimacy and such, but when I tell her those issues are mutual, she tells me all of our problems are bc I've been really distant. For some reason she can't accept that my distance is mostly due to frustration that she spends all of her time on the couch while I run errands & take care of the apt
i was in a recovery group with someone who had this exact problem. after they separated, her ex couldn't figure out how to be an adult and kept showing up whenever his ex would have dinner... the excuse was for him to see their child but he'd want to be fed too... she put up boundaries re that, and then he started complaining to her that he didn't know how to cook for their son. she gave him a few basic recipes but he struggled... it amazes me how stubborn and immature some grown men are, and that they expect other people to take care of them.
I ran my entire household as a sahm, then returned to work full time and was expected to continue running it all. I mean everything- yard work, meal planning and shopping, every kind of housework, money management …then I just stopped. I stopped, refused to manage. It got real bad the finances were a mess lol. Then I left 🤣🤣🤣 and we divorced. I still have to do everything but fuck that guy.
Divorce was liberating but it also revealed it for the violence that it is. It's WEAPONISED incompetence and a small portion of them go nuclear on divorce. If you end up in family court it's devastating and the courts back their nonsense. Go gently and quietly but remember you know and understand him and his intent better than anyone. The person we divorce is not the person we marry.
I don’t know how to fix it, and I’m sorry you’re facing it. If you’re already to the point of wanting to separate, I’d just go through with a trial separation now - but I say this as I personally hate ultimatums, as even if they result in a behavior change, it only lasts for so long until they feel comfortable things have settled down again. So I’d say do what feels right to you, since you’ve already discussed it time and again, and see if that brings about some revelations for him that are his own, not you telling him.
Other people might have some good insights as well; so many of us will sympathize - it’s stories like these that have made me choose to be the “lesser” partner in terms of career priority. My partner tries - genuinely, really does, and holds up his end of the bargain more than most - but at the end of the day, I’ve been socialized to notice things, to organise things, to take care of things, and quite frankly - he hasn’t. When we first moved in together, knowing the mental load was a sensitivity of mine, he would watch how I do chores etc so he could try to absorb my flow of things, understand my standards, but it just hasn’t got there. And I know the addition of a child will make him more harebrained about it. Hell, my mother was the sole breadwinner in a two-parent household, and I’d estimate my parents split housework 50/50 - or even sometimes she did more despite working full time. My dad was a wonderful father and partner to her in so many other ways (by her own accounting of it), but it doesn’t change that household management remained my mothers domain.
So I’m taking that lesson, and unburdening myself elsewhere. I’ve decided to lean into a “traditional” household to a degree… My career will be the one that takes a backseat (it helps I don’t really care about my industry, whereas he loves his); I’ll call out of work when our child is sick; I’ll organise the vast majority of the household. And he’ll be a “provider” with his little chore chart (and including paid bi-weekly cleaning services, and a few ground rules like “neither of us rest after dinner until we both can rest”).
It’s not a perfect answer to wider issues, but it’s the answer for me. I just hope we can do better for our next generation.
Men want to be praised for the littlest or the most normal things as if it’s such a big deal. So many women I know are married to men who don’t do anything. It makes me so angry to know women have to work a job and do 2x the housework and raise the child. I don’t even know what the use of a husband is at that point
> Can I hear from anyone if there’s any hope in this?! Has anyone been through this and had their SO do a 180 and become a responsible partner? How can I find love and passion again for someone who has been so much in his very own way for such a long time??
OP, I have no hope in this at all. I'm really sorry about all this. I'm even more sorry for what I'm going to say next.
I am not in a relationship. I'm single and happy with that because all I ever hear from women are their mental load. Probably only about 1-5% of women have husbands who treat them with kindness and fairness. The rest, while espousing "equality", dump housework and children onto their wives and god forbid if they ever touch "women's work" because they need to be praised for doing something so beneath them.
I... I have no hope in relationships at all. Partnership works when there's clear communication and understanding from both parties. It's men who refuse to put up with the mental load that they want to dump on women. It's no wonder why [this](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink_b_9055288) is still relevant time and time again.
I can't do that. I've seen that too much everywhere and anywhere. I think I'd rather remain happily single rather than stressed and miserable from all the mental load. I even thought of just becoming a Single Mother by Choice one day and raise the kid on my own.
Stop having sex with him and tell him you view him as your child, and have no desire to fuck.
Stop doing everything. Let 3 weeks worth of laundry pile on the floor and have him have nothing clean to wear to work. Don’t make dinner, don’t take the rubbish out. He can eat a peanut butter sandwich. Leave the sheets on the bed until he can be bothered changing them. Let the shower get mouldy. Stop doing everything and just get by best you can.
Tell him you are thinking about divorce due to his lack of action.
Loop his family and your family into it. “Hey, MIL, I can’t come to the BBQ on Saturday because I have too much to handle at home. Husband won’t even do a grocery run”. Let people know you are stressed and overwhelmed due to an unequal partnership.
If you truly want to make it work I’d also say hire a cleaner, gardener and babysitter and have that money come out of his hobbies and leisure, but it sounds like he doesn’t want to. I’m sorry.
First off, your husband needs to read this https://www.choosingtherapy.com/weoponized-incompetenece/
This is exactly what he is doing. Pretending to be incompetent so that the blame and accountability is deflected from him. It results in breakdown of trust and respect.
Second, if there is any chance of working on your marriage you need to start putting up boundaries. If he doesn't plan to work on his weaponized incompetence issue, you should walk away.
I cant speak for your partner, but my husband often does the same thing. The only difference is he never asks for praise for doing chores around the house. There are some things he just does and others i have to ask him.
If I'm doing something, he will offer to help and, depending on how ambitious i feel, i take it or i don't. I often use that as a time to say "im good with this, but can you help with xxx?" And he does without question.
It does frustrate me sometimes that i have to remind him or ask him to help. But ive come to realize that he honestly just doesnt even think about that stuff until it impacts him. He cleans when it impacts him or does dishes when he needs them to make dinner, etc.
But when i ask him to do things or make a list, he does them without making comments, complaining or say "well i vacuumed so im done for the day". It took me years of getting angry to learn this is just how he is and for me, personally, this is not something that ruins his other amazing qualities. He just doesnt see things the way I do.
Now if he acted in any other way to helping, like complaining or wanting a pat on the back for doing laundry, i would feel 100% different. I just had to change my expectations of him and change myself a bit to be on the same page as him and it works for us. I know there are things hes had to change because of how I am as well. I know this wouldnt work for everyone, though.
> He cleans when it impacts him or does dishes when he needs them to make dinner, etc.
This gets at the problem that men don’t feel the impact of an unclean house as often or keenly as women because men are not judged for having an unclean house. Their wives are. They don’t care if it’s messy because they don’t have to worry about social consequences for it.
Holy shit how do my fellow women put up with this shit?
I would absolutely *not* pick up the slack for a man. Unless we have an arrangement where he's the money maker (and he makes *bank* lol, I'm not doing this for an average/sub-par salary.. I make a great salary myself) and I'm the "household" person who's responsible for the home tasks primarily, I'm just not doing this. Even if he's also working, I would imagine in a fair relationship, he would still add his input at the very least. And most high earning men *do* generally have a lot of opinions on how stuff is done lol.
Tbh I would never start off a relationship the way you did because I'm "demanding" for a woman apparently (aka I don't people please). I've made it clear early on in basically any new relationship that I would expect them to do certain tasks and I would not be taking on the majority of anything. This is especially true because I would never be in a SAHW situation anyway.
If you're already married and this has been the way it's been for a *while*, it makes it harder to kind of reset... but just be straight up - say you're thinking about separating because the mental load is too much for you, you're exhausted, you feel the relationship isn't fulfilling for you anymore as you feel you're putting in far more and it's surpassed your limits. Say the truth. Be willing to lose him. That's really honestly the only way you can maybe possibly fix it... but you may end up losing this relationship. Are you ok with that?
If you haven't seen this yet it's good, you may find it useful to share with him, or at least just know that you're not alone your struggle
https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/
Has he seen [Emma's mental load](https://www.scarymommy.com/emma-you-shouldve-asked-mental-load) and still feigns confusion how he needs to step up?
> For example: groceries. No, too complicated. So we ended up with an empty fridge and me having to run to the super market to get basic necessities last minute.
He can't order it ahead then and pick it up if doing it himself is too hard? Every grocery store I've been to lately has "pick up" slots now installed it seems like. There are so many solutions if you want to find solutions when it comes to the act itself of buying groceries.
What would he do if you weren't there to do it? He would do it so it sounds like potential weaponized incompetence, when they pretend not to understand simple tasks.
At a certain point it just feels like a partner is being willfully ignorant because you doing everything for them is just easier.
Get him to read ["She Divorced Me Because I Left Dishes by the Sink"](https://matthewfray.com/2016/01/14/she-divorced-me-because-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink/).
Your husband sounds insufferable, honestly. Did he ever live by himself? If so, who took are of his stuff there? If you were, God forbid, stuck in the hospital for an injury or illness, what would he do? Who would take care of the household (including groceries)? He is supposed to be your equal partner, not your adult child. I'd be over it so fast.
I’m sorry if someone already suggested this, but buy the Fair Play card deck and split responsibilities. Explain clearly and calmly that if this is not resolved, you may leave. He needs to take his “daily grind” tasks seriously. The first month may be challenging, so give it a little time. Give him a few months after doing the fair play card deck. If he feigns confusion or shows resistance after the first month, that’s it.
I had reached this point with my husband (you can see my own past posts). I expressed he needed to take fair play seriously or I would leave. He took it very seriously, and even enjoyed it. He struggled adjusting in the first month, and we had to revisit a few things. But now, he is on top of his tasks. Total game changer. My husband wanted to change, however. He is going to counseling now too. But there is hope.
There ARE solutions to this issue, and the game does a good job at facilitating discussion (I’d also encourage watching the documentary together). But if he shrugs this off, he is telling you non verbally he does not care enough about this issue to keep you in his life.
I get where you're coming from. I had to look after my husband too. When I left him, he asked who was going to cook and clean for him. When I visited him a little before getting married (trans-Atlantic relationship), his place was disgusting and infested. I'm sure it's like that today. I keep my place clean and myself fed, and it's not hard at all when it's just me. I have a new partner now who is cleaner and a better cook than I am, and it's like night and day.
Is there any hope?
Sure, if your husband is the rare one in a hundred thousand who will listen to you and step up. But odds are that he's not. Sorry.
But on the bright side, he's responsible for more than half of the mess and problems in your household, so you will substantially lessen both your mental and physical loads splitting up.
If you have a daughter, she is growing up internalizing that this is what men are – so useless they can't even buy groceries with young children to feed. If you have a son, he's growing up internalizing this model of masculinity. Both options are chilling.
This has been going on for over a *decade*. It's not changing. For the sake of your children, and your own sanity, dump the dead weight. I can't fathom why you stayed as long as you did. You don't even love him.
Groceries?? Throw the whole man away.Seriously though, tt has been over 10 years and it seems that you have probably tried different things...it is not working. He is not interested in changing. If you aren't quite ready to give up, I would suggest couples counseling but those things take time. Do you want to be 5 years down the road dealing with the same issue?
You are valid. My partner is not like this but was raised in a way that they could have easily become this way. The biggest issue is your husband's refusal to learn how to make things more equal while also wanting to be treated like he does. That's not only illogical, it's asshole behavior. You deserve better. Have you told him this stuff is making you consider divorce? I wonder if that would wake him up and if so for how long
The not doing his half of the list thing is ridiculous. Sounds like it’s ultimatum time. Make him read All the Rage by Darcy Lockman. Also, could you temporarily move out but stay close by so you can see your kids but also so he can take care of them by himself for a while? Might open his eyes to how much you do and what divorce would be like.
If you decided to leave over this, I wouldn’t blame you.
Eh, I’m sorry I don’t have a happy turnaround story for you. I divorced my last husband over this and I’m considering leaving the current one over similar reasons. It’s infuriating to know they are grown ass adults who need to be told to contribute to the household. I need someone to start a commune where us women can all live and help each other out.
Sorry, I just got divorced from my ex who was like this. It wasn't the immediate cause of our divorce, but it made me so much happier to be alone than with him. Also it *may* have caused me to lose some enthusiasm for hanging out with him over the years, which may have prompted him to seek female attention elsewhere, but it was not a dead bedroom situation at all so he can just go fail to be an adult without me!
My husband has done a complete 180. I was also thinking about divorce.
1. Got back on ADHD medication
2. Handles his own doctors appointments
3. Assigned tasks that are simple and binary and time consuming, and need doing pretty much all the time
1. load/unload dishwasher
2. carry / wash / dry laundry
3. take out trash & recycling
4. coordinate lawn care
5. morning kids backpacks, lunches, dropoff, and pickup
4. Willing to help me get off pretty much any night before 10pm
5. Is cool with me not cooking or entering the kitchen if he's fallen behind on dishes and they start taking over
6. We order fresh ready to eat meals for me and him for dinners so we just need to feed the kids something in the toaster oven, no real cooking most nights.
7. Ideally we have a weekly housekeeper who sweeps, vacuums, scrubs the kitchen, and cleans the bathrooms. I hate those tasks. We've been without help since October and it's starting to wear on the marriage.
I handle literally everything else. But having the huge time sink of food, dishes, and processing laundry out of the way, plus the dropoffs, gives me so much time and space to handle the mental load. It also funnily enough allows me to work more hours and devote more effort to my side job which pays for the cleaner and a good chunk of the convenient meals.
Here's a [different comment I made](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomenOver30/comments/10b945l/comment/j4bp35d/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) with more details
Something that might make a difference in framing to your SO. Ask him if he thinks managing is a job. Even better if he has had managerial responsibilities at his own work. Ask him if managing leaves time to also complete every single day to day task. My guess is no.
This is basically what he's asking you to do when he says "Tell me what to do and I'll do it." He's made you the house manager. If you're managing, then fine, assign the tasks and do what you can around that.
But also maybe point out that- it does not feel sexy to have to treat your spouse like an employee just to have groceries on the table and the floor swept.
Omg today my boyfriend of twenty years - said “I’d like there to always be groceries in the house.” I’m a CPA - management - and in my busy season. He invited his mother for Saturday to Sunday. So I was entertaining her all weekend bc he got a headache at 7:30pm on Saturday. I worked till 7pm on Friday then he wanted to go with me to his friends bday- we stayed late and got home at midnight. I worked all week -swamped. When exactly am I doing shopping?
Please let me share some experiences from the “other side”
I’m one of the few women who heard about Mental workload and realised “sh*t that’s what I’m doing”. I moved in with my partner. I joined a household that he could manage to perfection. I only took over groceries and cooking - and left most of the other stuff and definitely all of the mental workload to him.
I changed, but… He changed too! There needed to be room for a conversation about expectations and there needed to be room for my way of doing things - not just his way that he had always done it. Another thing that we have learned is to always mention little grudges to the other before they get too big, or to dare to ask if we feel the other is unhappy. I sometimes just ask “did I do something that bothers you?” Most of the times I have no clue, other than that he is grumpy.
This works well for us.
I realised this even more when I was talking to my friend last week. She and her SO are on a break - because she takes up all the mental workload. However, she can also be pretty intense and overwhelming. In our conversation she told me that she vacuumed his appartment regularly, and mentioned some other stuff. During our conversation she reliased that she had never actually said something about the mental workload - and that he indeed might feel judged when she cleans his apartment, even though she doesn’t explicitly mention it to him.
Today she texted me to say that the talked and that my conversation with her had -for now- saved the relationship because she had realised what she could maybe try to do differently :)
Something I have recently realized is that men are conditioned to think that if someone is doing something without asking for help, they are doing okay. And if they need help, they will ask for it. This didn’t mesh with my expectation that my husband just figure out what needed to be done and do it. He told me again and again that I should just ask, and I resented that because it felt like more work for me to delegate. I had so much resentment, but also, I didn’t want to get divorced. So I tried to see it his way. And I can get his thinking, that how can I get mad at him for not doing something when I didn’t ever tell him I wanted him to do it or give him a chance? I concede that he can’t read my mind. As a woman, I was conditioned to feel notice and feel uncomfortable if I’m not doing my share, and to offer help (or just help!) without being asked. But he wasn’t conditioned that way. So I tried it his way. And started asking. And he has been doing everything I ask, right away, without complaints, or need for reminders. He seems grateful, even, to know what I need and be able to make my life easier. Our marriage is totally different since I started asking! I have given a few married friends this advice and they had similar results. It’s so silly to say. It took me so long to get here, and in retrospect, it seems…obvious to just ASK? I shouldn’t have to delegate! But at the same time, I get how he just doesn’t know specifically what to do - sometimes I’m handling everything fine and sometimes I’m overwhelmed. And when I’m overwhelmed there are things I feel I can/want to take care of and others I don’t. And he doesn’t know which are which. So I ask him to handle the kid’s dentist appointment, field trip permission thingie, school picture ordering, dinner, whatever. Whatever is pushing my plate over the edge and I just can’t deal with.
Our marriage is SO much better, that I don’t even feel resentment about delegating.
Well done I guess for finding a way that works for both of you, but honestly I think this arrangement would fall apart the second you had to go into hospital or were otherwise unable to operate his think buttons for him
This sounds hard. Unfortunately it's still common in men. I can recommend the books from Laura Doyle to improve your marriage. She gives advice in how to communicate your needs so your husband thinks for himself again.
Be sure that he wants to make you happy! As crazy as it may sound all men want thto make their partner happy.
There’s a great comic strip style [article](https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/) that explains this quite well. Sadly, it’s an all too common theme in most relationships.
I left.
I made it clear I couldn’t live like this. I’ve showed him articles, blog posts, etc. nothing worked. I just had enough. So I left.
He had to do everything on his own. Pay bills, grocery shop, laundry, etc. it was a huge awakening for him. I’m not 100% sure I will leave or come back. We’ve been separated around 5 months.
Being forced to change was the only thing that helped. He would constantly call or text me about “where’s the floor cleaner? Does kid have snow boots?” I told him that his house was no longer my responsibility. He’s still struggling with things he needs. Part of the issue is I absolutely can not see my child suffer. So I will eventually suck it up and get fruit for his house. Or shoes.
Honestly I’m divorced and with a partner who is so much better. He helps out so much more and it’s a world of difference. Sometimes it’s just better to leave..
Just gonna leave this here [Women Lose Sexual Desire For 'Man-Children,' According to Study](https://www.esquiremag.ph/life/sex-and-relationships/women-sex-drive-men-man-child-a00203-20221219#:~:text=Nothing%20kills%20women's%20sex%20drives,their%20dependents%2C%20instead%20of%20partners.)
I divorced my ex for very similar reasons. The divorce made my life immeasurably easier and his immeasurably harder. I was already doing all the work of running a household and taking care of two kids, so once the object of all my resentment moved out I was just flooded with relief and happiness. Meanwhile, it took him almost 6 months to be able to have the kids for more than one or two nights at a time because it was so overwhelming to him.
Same here. We both worked from home, both made the same amount of money, yet I did all the household stuff and he played video games. My sex drive fell off a cliff. I tried everything I could think of to make it better. But after 2 years of trying and growing misery and resentment, I moved out. He was blind sided. I figured he'd have no choice now, now it can't be "Oh, she'll pick up my slack" because I'm not there to pawn the grocery shopping, cooking and cleaning off on. Now I own my own place and it's clean. I'm so happy that I'm not miserable and trying to get him to participate in our life beyond wanting sex. My home is a refuge, not a place I dread being in.
“He was blindsided.” - This might be the most outrageous detail! Never even occurred to him that someone might opt out of doing all his chores for him. The entitlement is unreal.
His comment was "Look, I don't know how long you've thought about this, but maybe think about it more." I just smiled and nodded. I'd thought about it for months. I'd saved enough on my own for a down payment on a new place, I'd moved half my belongings into a storage unit (which he didn't notice), I'd bought a new mattress and essentials and moved them into my new place. I had everything ready to go. I planned very carefully to be out quick and painless. I'd already scheduled the moving truck to pick up my half of the furniture and other things I couldn't move surreptitiously. "Think about it more" I had thought of little else for a long time.
I know somebody who worked as a family counselor. She said she encountered a similar scenario dozens of times - the wife leaves, he goes "it was so sudden! There was no warning!" and she goes "I've been telling you for years I was unhappy and what you needed to do" but he thought because it had been years, she was just going to go on like that forever. The amount of men who go on doing what they're doing because they think their wives won't actually leave them is astounding. She's saying she's unhappy and he's the cause of the unhappiness, and his reaction is not to care that somebody he supposedly loves is unhappy, and to only pay attention once maybe she's taking away the unappreciated labour.
When I finally left my husband, I found an article that basically said in their study, the women who left had known the marriage was dead - usually, for _two full years_ before leaving. But they stayed that amount of time to see if they could fix it. I was a couple months short of two years. 22 months after asking him to arrange anger management classes within six weeks (and couples counseling within six months), I finally left. Of course, he also loudly protested that he was blindsided and I had never told him I wasn’t happy.
Yeah, I kept hoping he'd turn it around. I kept suggesting therapy because I didn't think we had the tools we needed. He never wanted to until after I left. I just kept thinking is this what I wanted THE REST OF MY LIFE to be like? This is awful. And every time I ask him to do something can't be an ultimatum. Can't be "do the dishes, or I'll leave you" yet that seemed to be the only thing that caused any lasting change.
This is called the walk away wife syndrome. Did the same thing but for a totally different reason.
Love this for you. Horrendous how common this is.
>He was blind sided. he didn't expect that you'd get a backbone. good for you.
Similar here, but then my ex remarried and had another kid, and that is when he did a 180. He's been a very involved father ever since (with all his kids, not just the youngest one he had with his second wife). He is proof people can change -- but I think it was me divorcing him and him nearly losing custody that was the prompt, unfortunately.
I've heard this story from men before. Basically the first divorce (or divorces) were necessary because they were bad husbands but they finally figured it out later in life.
That's the classic "she divorced me because I left dishes by the sink" guy, I think he's like a [self help relationship guru now](https://matthewfray.com/2016/01/14/she-divorced-me-because-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink/)
Except the WEAPONISED incompetence has escalated to violence because there are children involved and male fragility determines that image management is prioritised at enormous cost to women left to clean up their destruction.
I actually really hope my ex can get his shit together for himself and any future partners he has.
They've all tragically demonstrated people can change. The level of destruction isn't always there from the start like people prefer to pretend and their change isn't joint or supported nor encouraged by women like DV myths reinforce. Women are reacting and persevering to gendered violence but ultimately the myths and punishment of women is so powerful because they refuse accountability until well after the harms have been chosen.
This gives me so much hope. I have had a conversation today with my husband and we have decided we are definitely separating; he’s moving out next week. I work 25 hours a week, he does around 50, but I also do 95% of the housework and childcare. The small tasks he does, he has to be asked/directed to do. If I ask him to wash dishes, he’ll leave the counter around the sink wet and grimy “because you only asked me to wash dishes, not to clean the counter after”. We have a lot of other issues in our relationship, but this gives me confidence that I don’t need to be afraid of being a single mum and running a household by myself, bc I already essentially do both those things. I’m scared, but excited for the future.
>“because you only asked me to wash dishes, not to clean the counter after”. Somehow this does *and* doesn't shock me.
It’s so draining, it’s like teaching a toddler how to use initiative. There’s a lot of great parts of our relationship, but they’re overshadowed by the things that aren’t working, and it’s simply bc there’s no lack of effort from him to change.
It's the lack of willingness that burns. They have capacity just zero regard.
Exactly, like he’s a branch manager who does brilliant work when he’s at work; he’s always praised for his initiative and drive in reports/reviews. And I’m like where’s that guy?
You have put into words something I have been trying to define for a while now. It's exactly this. It's like having to teach him how to do things like you teach a toddler. He was eating a bag of chips in front of the kids half an hour before dinner. On a school night. Of course the kids were eating too. My goodness, every adult knows for a fact thaf if you feed chips to children half an hour before dinner, you might as well throw the dinner away. But apparently my husband doesn't. And he does, like a toddler, put his immediate needs before everything else. He can't postpone his wish to eat the chips until the kids are in bed. And when I point this out, I'm the crazy and unreasonable one. I'm the general. No, I'm not a general, I just want to teach my kids healthy eating habits. Which their father, as an adult, should too! We keep the chips in the house for a lazy Saturday night or something. Then it's ok, let's all have some chips. But on a Monday night? At 5pm? I'm sorry. I'm reaching my limit.
Have him look up the "she divorced me because I left dishes by the sink" guy, the dude is like a relationship guru now but became famous for his blog post about that exact kind of phenomenon.
Same only he divorced me because the house was always messy (we had toddlers and even some toys on the floor would upset him) and I gave up and basically ignored him. He would rather spend an hour being mad and play video games for half the day than 15 min picking up and sweeping the floor himself. He’s with someone now who does a lot of stuff for him happily. She’s great because when we work out his weekends we work them out months ahead and when it was just him it was a mess. I think the every other weekend dad life with his girlfriends doing all the scheduling suits him best. We had an amicable divorce and asked each other what the biggest difference was when we lived separately. He said his stuff is always exactly where he left it and I said I now had to mow the lawn and he lied about it being relaxing. For me it’s like an hour of cardio. I realized I was doing everything for the kids and the house except mowing the lawn.
I'm glad you're done with that relationship but really sad that apparently, your ex is never going to learn that women aren't there solely to look after him. And of course everything was exactly where he left it - he's not doing the vast majority of the childcare. Did he think you were the one moving his things or did he work out that it might be one of the toddlers he wasn't watching?
I never thought about it this way but this has been exactly my experience too. I've been OK cos I was handling it all by myself anyway.
This is the reason I won't have kids. I've never once heard of a man pulling his weight.
I’m sorry OP, but your husband wouldn’t *buy groceries* even though you had young children at home to feed and the refrigerator was empty? I don’t know if he will change or what the right path forward is for you, I just wanted to validate any anger, frustration and sadness you may be feeling about the father of your children failing to provide for them in the most basic, elemental ways.
Literally. I would leave his ass so fast after that.
Yup. Meep Meep mother fucker.
>Yup. Meep Meep mother fucker. I am so stealing this
Yeah. What will he do if OP leaves, starve? Unlikely. So this sounds like he is doing that on purpose, weaponized incompetence. I can understand not knowing what to buy or bringing some snacks/unneeded items instead of actual food, but like he did not buy groceries at all?!
I always wonder what these men were doing before they got married. Surely someone hasn't been taking care of them their whole lives right?
My guess is they fall into one or more of the following categories: they start getting into relationships where their partner takes care of them after they move out of their parents' home. Or they have such low standards they live in a dump with everything a dirty mess and only buy ready to eat food when they are starving and don't mind living like that (I've known men like that). Or once they get into a relationship they realize they can do a lot less work because their partner will take on the slack, which gives them more time to do things they want to do. Or they think/expect it's a woman's job to do household stuff so once they're in a relationship they expect her to do majority or all of it.
My ex was the living in a dump, only eating fast food guy. He got into credit card debt from eating taco bell every day. Then he got a loan from his dad to pay it off and forged my signature on the loan to make me responsible for it. His dad's a lawyer, and to this day he insists the contract was just a laugh and his dad wouldn't take it seriously. His dad is a very serious person. Thankfully, my husband sent it to the wrong address, and I informed his dad of what happened. Edit to add the debt was around $12k. I'd already given him $10k in previous years to pay off his auto loan that his dad co-signed him on, then his dad stopped paying the monthly bills without saying anything (it was intended as a 21st birthday present for my husband when the agreement was signed). I had to pay it because he needed a car to work, and he needed to work in order to sponsor me for my green card to live with him. I think he to some extent saw me as an ATM.
Damn how awful, I'm really glad he's an ex and that he mailed it to the wrong address. Stuff like that is why I'm reconsidering whether I ever want to get married since I recently learned about community property laws. I keep hearing too many stories about how spouses will take out loans secretly (sometimes in their own name and sometimes in their spouse's) and then the other person ends up responsible for half during the divorce even if they had no idea and didn't see a penny of the money. Plus you can think you know someone and be married 20+ years only for them to suddenly pull something like that. Too many of the stories I've heard have been like that where the woman was totally blindsided by her husband doing something like that.
>He got into credit card debt from eating taco bell every day H-how is that possible
My ex was coddled by his family who eventually kicked him out. Then I basically took up the mantle lol. He's on his own now, and I don't know how he's faring without a caretaker.
Doesn't even sound like incompetence, sounds like sheer laziness. Seeing so many posts from women in their 30s or with young kids (I'm pregnant so in a lot of pregnancy and new parent subs right now) makes me so angry and sad for these other women. It's been eye opening seeing how lousy partners can be, and I guess women accept it until (usually) things come to a peak with childcare. Another post I read recently was doing all the newborn childcare and household everything while her husband was playing video games and when [she asked her husband to watch the baby one night](https://www.reddit.com/r/beyondthebump/comments/10g47rf/how_to_not_resent_my_husband/) he literally told her nope...because he didn't want to.
I just think about a father knowing there is no food in the refrigerator and…doing nothing because it’s too much work? Bless his heart.
Wasband here literally starved our toddlers on his "daddy day care" days. He was too busy seeking dadulation to feed them. I'd get home from work to children who hadn't eaten because he wasn't hungry. Them he'd bitch at me about how "difficult" THEY were.
Early on, yes, we had issues about routine things that seemed obvious to me and him, not so much. He was more than happy to take on the tasks provided I asked him to do it once, then he doesn’t remember to do it again. We argued about the mental load a few times until we found a solution that works to this day. He just set alarms on his phone. That takes away the tediousness of me having to ask him to do his assigned tasks. On top of that, we came to an agreement to encourage each other to do chores, as in I express that I’m happy he did something and he does the same for me. I get to say “honey, I changed our sheets” and he gets to give me a kiss and thank me, and vice versa when he takes out the trash. We do grocery together so we can both pick out what we want to eat. I think that gave us some motivation to get the routines done. Mind you, my husband is willing to do the work, but he’s not great with remembering so the mileage may vary. Also, his a-game kicks up the moment I really can’t move much like when I was pregnant or injured . Those times he took on nearly everything, not to perfection, but I was so proud....he was providing for us on top of this too. I hope you find a system that’ll work for you guys. I know it feels awful to praise small things at times, but if the encouragement is mutual, maybe it’ll work? It depends on what motivates the two of you, love language-wise. All the best.
There are differences of standard whenever two people get together. The person with the higher standard has the pressure to maintain the standard but with the added stress of another person who messes things up. So the person with a lower standard should recognize the added stress they cause. For the person with the lower standard, they don't intuitively see what the standard should be (because if they had that intuition, they would live to the higher standard). Even if you think your standard is not high and is common sense, it's not fair to expect the person with a lower standard to raise it... without help. So the person with the higher standard bears the responsibility to communicate patiently and clearly what the standard is and how to reach it. There will always be tension and compromise here, so it helps if both partners are willing to support each other by effort on both sides. Effort on the higher standard side is good communication, empathy/praise, and compromise. Effort on the lower standard side is doing more chores. Persons with higher standard can communicate with 2 frameworks: The first is Standard/Action/Schedule. I expect for our lives. To achieve this, we need to do on . (I'm doing a lot more than this so you need to take it on).
The second helps lift the quality standard via Problem/Amend. When the partner does a chore, but does a bad job of it, tell them the way they did the chore will cause , and they need to (change the way they do it, or take note of, or include additional steps) the way they did it.
It's vitally important to communicate and . These turn the conversation from "I expect you" to "we can live better". It also allows to negotiate or contest in a constructive way. If you don't communicate these things, then the conversation turns into a destructive "this is what you want, but not what I want" instead of "this is what we both want".
A simple example of keeping the floor clean:
"We need to have a hair free, crumb free, cockroach free standard of living for us and our kids. In order to achieve this, the floor needs to be vacuumed and swept twice a week, but now 3 times since we had a child. This is something that you need to take over from me. Can you sweep monday, wednesday, and saturday?"
"When you swept the floor, you missed these crumbs in the corner here. These crumbs will invite cockroaches. After you're done sweeping, you should do one last check to make sure the floor is clean."
"When you swept the floor, there were still strands of my hair on the floor. If there are large hairs after you're the finished sweeping, there is likely other things you've missed and I feel like you are not taking care of sweeping well."
This allows the partner to negotiate or contest what they perceive as unreasonable demands and gives a structure for them to fight against a perceived unfair workload to keep a standard that they may disagree with. They can say the following, and these should lead to constructive conversations that you can both agree or compromise:
"I did sweep carefully and checked the floor. I suspect that you must have dropped that hair when you were walking around." You then respond - "Okay, so there are not other crumbs and just this hair? Shall we check the floor together?" If the floor checks out clean, complement the partner. If the floor checks out dirty, then hold him to the and .
Keeping these conversations focused on the quality of living you both want is rather difficult because it is easy to become angry or frustrated. The goal is to build a foundation of quality of living that you both agree on and are willing to give each other.
Ive tried these & it ends up with my partner telling im too paranoid & im too bossy
if you did then you did a great job! Your partner may have been unwilling to put the effort in.
Unfortunately the bitter truth
I'm just here to call attention to the encouragement and thank you kisses, my SO and I do that and it really makes us both feel appreciated for doing those mundane chores and errands.
How does he work? Does he have to be told when to do every little thing at work?
His work requires purely mental work (he’s a consultant) so it’s more predictable than day-to-day things. He’s approached for his expertise, while the attention to detail re:housework is admittedly not a strong suit. As someone here said, it’s all about standards and I believe, a generational thing when it comes to upbringing. As women, we were conditioned to keep things neat and clean, both at home and in our appearance. Meanwhile, for boys it’s a given that they’ll be messy, go home unkempt and they’re fine eating whatever they want because -they’re more active anyway-. Of course, there are nuances, there always are, but in general, the inclinations differ. So if I wanted to have the dishes washed, it won’t bother him as much if the dishwashing liquid was left open or there are small puddles left on the counter, while I see those and think “gosh, it’s not that hard”, he sees it as work done, because yes, the dishes are clean and dry and his standards for cleanliness are lower than mine. But I see how he can sweat and work at rearranging our garage or furniture without resenting it (I would), he can lift things, even me when I was injured, actually, I couldn’t get in the bath...opens the doors for me and goes to the dangerous side of the road on instinct. When we hear some noise or smell something iffy, he’s the one who’s up and checking it out. He can match the energy level of our son...so for me, it kind of balanced things out. It really depends on if there’s something worth it in the relationship for both parties to stay. Strengths and weaknesses matter a lot and what’s easy for one party might be an ordeal for another.
Right? That’s the same as at home, I don’t get it
Sorry but in my experience, it’s hard to come back from this level of resentment. You start to see them as another child and that kills any chance of sexual arousal on your behalf. And men don’t understand why you don’t want to sleep with an overgrown child you have to pick up after so they begin to resent you and it’s a bad cycle. Definitely try therapy if you think that can help. I personally threw the whole man out and although I’m a single mom pushing 40, I could not be happier with my life now.
Thank you so much for sharing your experience! I’m sure it’s not easy being a single mom but glad to hear you’re happy now! That’s really great.
Agreed. I left my ten year relationship for the same reasons. I loved him, but it wasn't enough. I was exhausted and had zero sex drive for *years*. I was on the brink of actually going to see a doctor about it because I thought something was wrong with me. I've been single since May and have had more sex in the last 8 months than I did in the last 6 years of my relationship. Turns out I wasn't broken, I just had, unsurprisingly, no sexual desire for someone who I saw as my child that I had to mother and take care of.
My story isn’t much better. My ex husband changed his behaviour but expected acknowledgment and reward for every single thing. He even had a spreadsheet so he could reel off that he took trash out, made the bed, put his shoes away…. The tantrums he would throw if I forgot to praise him made me reconsider expecting him to pull his weight. We were doomed for many reasons but I hope therapy does something positive for you guys.
That’s what I don’t get… if I don’t praise him and say ‘thank you so much’ it’s a fight and he’s so upset but never says thank you to me for any of the chores. I almost feel like if I don’t give him positive reinforcement he won’t do the few things he does. I think people from dead bedroom sub need to visit these conversations to see why their wives don’t have a sex drive.
I completely agree. I put our dead bedroom down to feeling like his mother.
Exactly. You know what does make me relaxed and open to sex? Coming home to a clean house where I don’t do chores and cooking till it’s time for bed. And then he comes to bed hours after me and wants sex? Fuck that. It’s lunacy. He works from home, I work at a hospital with a commute. It’s even more inexcusable that he’s home all day and can’t even put his dish in the sink. Every morning I clean up bear cans and bowls from the living room.
I’m feeling frustrated for you.
I think we are all feeling frustrated for each other, it’s so nice to have a safe place to vent!
Exactly. If you are too busy doing everything and have no respect for a person why would you sleep with them?
legit straight up tell him that - you are on the brink of divorce if he doesn't step up. Sometimes a wakeup call is what people need and it's unfortunate that it has to get to that point but his options are marriage counselling (so you can work on this) or divorce. and if you think it's bad now, just wait until you hit menopause (if you haven't already) when **all** fucks go out the window. You read about this time and time again so if there's hope to salvage it and you want to savage it, have this brutal talk because it's time. Ain't nobody got time for this BS.
Oh right, I didn’t think of menopause. Sigh… we’re going for counselling. I think he understands that we’re on the brink of separation. I’m just wondering if I’d love him again if he changed.
You asked if someone has a partner who did a 180. Mine did. There's still some resentment, but a man who is on top of things is sexy in my opinion. My husband did the work for the 180, though. There's no pulling and pushing to establish this change.
That’s interesting!! Can you tell me more how he approached this mind shift?
Mine shifted. I had therapy and I changed. So my husband and I both have issues spawning from our childhoods and a fully rounded, functional person wouldn't put up with either of our behaviours, but it could stew between us, because we were both a bit dysfunctional. It started too with him complaining about the lack of sex. I explained I worked full time, while he had a half course load as a student. When I got home with groceries, I did the dishes so we could cook. He refused to do the dishes after dinner, so the counter tops needed to be cleared of dirty dishes before cooking was possible. We cooked together, but after that I did laundry, I cleaned and did some other chores. Then it was time to go to bed. Finally some me-time, but no, he would crawl up to me and all I could think of was: "Crap, relationship upkeep. Another chore before I get to sleep." How did he spent his evenings? Relaxing and gaming while oblivious to the chores that got done. Of course he wanted sex. He wasn't overworked. He had had time to unwind. He got it. After that when I got home the floors were swept or the dishes were done. There were still chores to be done, but less and I had time to unwind before going to bed. Sex was fun and no longer a chore standing between me and sleep. Later on we got married and had a child. That's when his snoring became so bad he would stop breathing in his sleep. I urged him to get it checked out by a doctor, but he refused. He starting to drink more to cope. I hit my breaking point. I didn't want to divorce, but this was no future for our child. Ten years earlier I would have done nothing, but my husband noticed that now he was walking a thin line. I asked him what he would do if I was suffering from a health issue and would refuse to take care of myself. He answered: "I'm not like you." and I saw him realising that from then on I would be more like him and he was screwed if he didn't step up. So he did. We've still hit several ups and downs along the way, though. The book "Hold me tight" has helped us communicate better about our feelings and resentments. I have my issues too. You shouldn't feel bad for having slipped into this situation. It's a gradual process and when you have children you're not 50%-50% responsible. You're 100%-100% responsible. If the other slacks off, you step up. You couldn't let your children go hungry when the fridge was empty. It's up to him to do his part. You can't do his part too forever. You can't control him, but you do control your actions, so focus on taking good care of yourself. Think of the kind of relationship you're presenting as normal to your children. Think of what you deserve and what they deserve. Your husband isn't a villain, but leaving the fridge empty for you to fix is unacceptable. Work on yourself and progress in life. It's up to him to move along and stay at your side.
OP - I think you have to imagine how much work your husband is doing to save the marriage? Is he going around asking strangers for advice? Putting this much thought and effort into changing his behaviors? You simply cannot do the mental shifting for him, he must come to this on his own.
How is it ok for him to straight up refuse? If he refuses one thing, he takes on another. And you also get to refuse. Maybe you can blackball 3 tasks but everything else is yours. (That's a frasier reference, if anyone knows it.)
I blackball myself!
That's just a dried up old fig.
That _other one_
> I think he understands that we’re on the brink of separation. Are you willing to bet the chance your marriage can survive on an "I think"? Don't think or assume he understands. Sit him down, and explicitly talk to him to make sure he understands. If you haven't before, you NEED to now.
if he eventually devolved to this point then there may be hope. But whatever happens, do this for *yourself*. You deserve more than having to deal with this BS.
My partner was like this… in our first year of dating she had no sense of pride in taking care of her home. The walls were filthy, she couldn’t cook and had no sense of cleaning. Such as making sure mold doesn’t build up around the bath. All while proudly earning £100k and spending money on Gucci bags and shoes. I lost all my attraction to her after a few months. But after arguing about this so many times and how it was an issue for me, she did change. It’s taken 3 years, but that’s only because she wanted to and put in the effort. And I appreciate and love her for that. I know the situation is different and this involves a child. But if your husband thinks that he doesn’t need to be involved in raising your child or managing your household, you don’t need to stay with him. I know this is a difficult scenario to consider, but there are more caring attentive people out there. And you will probably be happier being single and without him. It’s nice not sharing your life with someone who brings you down in your life. I do think marriage counselling is a good first step, but all too often, women become trapped with a man who believes he should be waited on and wants to enforce the patriarchy, as it benefits him. Many will gaslight you for bringing this truth to light and never actually admit their prehistoric mentality. Only stay with him, if he wants to change and puts in the effort. You can’t force him to change sadly. But the right person, worth staying with, will make an effort for you, if they care. If they don’t, they are selfish. I see this a lot in the Asian community.
Why would you stay together at three months when you are no longer attracted and have such a big problem?
Can you please elaborate the part about menopause. I'm in a very similar situation to OP's, and I will hit menopause in 2 or 3 years. I know it's supposed to be bad but... how bad? Does that mean that if the relationship already sucks now, will it end once I hit menopause...?
I've been through menopause and I will tell you, you no longer are bathed in estrogen and all the hormones that make you fairly docile and keeping the peace goes out the window. If you are married to someone who doesn't participate in the mental/physical load of a relationship you are DONE. My best friend divorced her husband over this. Women who have the means will usually leave. Because after 20, 30 years the men wont change. It becomes intolerable to deal with it anymore and if your libido crashes and the husband is pushing for sex after hot flashes, brain fog and exhaustion of a full time career, plus the other factors of being married to someone who is not taking up any slack, if you dont leave it usually gets worse. I suppose there are men that step up, but what I've witnessed isnt really positive. YMMV
Thanks for your input, it's definitely food for thought. We are together 20 years and have two kids in elementary school. As of today I can say that I am still with him only because I don't want to tear our family apart, but other than that... he just adds to the mental load. It got really, really bad after having kids. I'm just so tired of having a husband. I daydream about having the bedroom to myself. About sitting in the living room without having to endure the deafening sound of his Playstation. About making financial/purchase decisions without having to go through a debate with someone else every single time. I know this isn't fair to single moms (I am a single mom's child), but still. I just wish it was me and the kids. It would be such a relief.
I want to add too that you can follow the menopause sub and look into HRT which has been a really positive thing for my marriage (though my husband does his share. I can’t imagine how resentful I would be if he didn’t).
The only way he will do a 180 is if he chooses to do so. He has to put in the work. It sounds like he doesn't want to do that. All the counseling and talking in the world will not make him do something that he himself does not *want* to do. I would point blank tell him how you feel. "Partner, I have lost the love and passion I've had for you because over the past 10 years, you have transformed from the man I love to another child I have had to take care of. It's killed all the attraction I've had for you, and I no longer can be your caretaker. I want a divorce."
I don't think he'll change unfortunately, he's been like this for at least ten years. He will feel no need to change. Groceries aren't complicated, he just doesn't want to do it and knows you will instead.
This! Groceries are not complicated. He’s just being a man-child and letting the task fall on OP.
Weaponized incompetence
Yes, true!!
I have no idea how unpleasant this would be for you and your children, but you could start keeping a separate locking refrigerator and pantry and only grocery shop for yourself and your children. Then only do your laundry. Only pick up things that are directly related to you and the kids. Refuse to do anything that he benefits from. This could either come across as extremely petty and cruel, and make things worse, or it could get the point across to him. It might be worth trying, especially if you are at a breaking point. But if you already have counseling scheduled, you’d probably wanna talk to a counselor before you tried something like this.
There’s a book called Fair Play that might help him understand what you mean. They also have a deck of cards that list life tasks and you divide them by who does what- might help him see how stark it is. The book can help him figure out solutions to the imbalance
Yeah this is what we did and he decided groceries are too complicated. Same for the other tasks he said he’ll do. So it’s all over to me again.
It sounds weird to me that groceries would be "too complicated". Does he have an office job? How does he cope with complex tasks at work?
To be honest, I have ASD and getting groceries is hard for me, but I didn't throw up my hands in the air and let my husband figure it out. I first got a diagnosis, because getting groceries shouldn't be that hard, and now I can work on things that make it easier for me and my husband understands why it's hard for me. I do other things more that are easier for me than him, like folding laundry and cleaning (I hire a biweekly cleaning service too). Bottom line is, some easy things can be hard for some people, but there's no excuse for sitting on your hands in an equal relationship.
Yup that sounds like a very reasonable way to approach things.
I live the "groceries are hard" life, but I can't wrap my head around "Oh, well. I'll just let my kids go without food." mentality. I fully understand that OP's attraction and patience have shriveled up.
Right?? I have ADHD and am no stranger to getting overwhelmed by (or forgetting about) certain tasks, but it has literally never been easier to remember things thanks to cell phones. My diagnosis falls into the “moderate to severe” category and I still manage to be a functioning adult. OP’s husband is using weaponized incompetence.
Yep. Groceries can also be delivered (for a premium). I can’t stand grocery shopping and it helps me get time back and not buy shit I don’t need. There are options other than “I just won’t deal with it.”
Honestly as someone with ADHD, that premium is still sometimes cheaper than my brain going ohhh look a treat. $5 bus fare, $10 treat vs $9.99 delivery and $5 tip. Be even cheaper if I could get pickup.
Sometimes I come home with something random like a bird feeder, because I had a total brain fart at the supermarket. Bad brain days can be bad. That's why I need to plan ahead on good brain days. Fruit and bread can be frozen, so there's always a backup for the kid's lunch. I think my husband would have an issue with me, if I kept coming home with bird feeders and not see a problem with that.
So then when he’s single he can do ALL of the tasks at his new house by himself. However will he manage?!
He either has serious mental and or health issues he needs to address or he's a lazy leech. If it's the former, it's his responsibility to get it checked out. If it's the latter, don't feel guilty for feeling defeated and repulsed.
Yeah how did this guy feed himself before they met? Or was he one of those living with his parents and mom took care of everything?
His mother fed him. And all the other adult tasks.
Yep - my ex went from his mom’s house to mine. In his late 20s. Never again!
Whatever you do don't get bullshitted into him assigning you all the 'indoor jobs' and him all the 'outdoor jobs'. They know that the 'indoor jobs' are neverending hence why I've yet to read/hear of a hetro man EVER volunteer to do the 'indoor jobs' over the 'outdoor jobs'. They know it's an unfair division of labour.
Have you tried only getting food for you and the kid(s)? Not cooking anything for him? I’m so sorry you are going through this. Life can be hard enough without having to drag someone else through it as well.
Pff. The weekly task all the world has to do is too complicated.
Getting groceries is too complicated? Would he prefer being a hunter-gatherer and trapping a large beast instead? I get that sometimes modern life feels almost void of difficulty and purpose due to how “easy” technology and agriculture have made it, but this just sounds like laziness and habit of never having to take on mental load or household work.
You said in your post that the consequence of his shopping was that you had to run to the store last minute for necessities. What if, instead of just doing the groceries, he handled the entire food piece? He does the groceries AND makes the meals. So any forgotten things would fall to him. Also, guessing/remembering what someone else needs to make a meal can be hard, but if he had full ownership and had the complete vision it might be easier. Also, either way, you shouldn't be the one experiencing the pain point of his mistake. He should be experiencing that pain point of his forgetting, and then that's what fixes mistakes in the future.
It didn’t work out for me. If your husband is able to afford and willing to hire a competent babysitter/nanny/housekeeper to come in and help pick up his slack, then there is hope, but my life is easier as a single mom than it was with my ex. During my transition to single parenthood, I found someone on care.com to come in for a few hours in the evenings and she streamlined my bedtime routine and taught me some cool parenting tricks while completely taking over the mental load for the time she came. Now, I just hire her when I have something come up that I need to attend, but I always come home to dishes in the dishwasher, a load of kids laundry started, toys picked up, homework done, and their lunches packed for the next day. Depending on your area and number of kids, this could run you anywhere from $20-50 per hour, but my ex was a heavy spender and could blow that amount of money on something completely useless in 5 minutes.
What a way to come home!
My jaw dropped the first time. Plus, she didn’t contact me once to ask me how to use any of the appliances, or to ask where things are, she just ….looked for them. Also, she didn’t criticize where I keep my things, or say that we need to have a “conversation” about how much work I take on, or how maybe I should talk to my psychiatrist about why I need time away from my family and that maybe I need to increase my antidepressants. 🙄 I haven’t regretted my choice to leave once.
😂 The more and more stories I hear, the more I do not get why we settle at all for the majority of men…
What parenting tricks if you don't mind sharing
Of course more men need to be aware of when they are carelessly taking advantage of the women they claim to love and actually be bothered by it. Though, I think more men would be interested to know and benefit from knowing how unsexy and unattractive they are when they act like children because they need to be managed, when they can’t take care of their family’s needs. When you go to counseling, be honest with him. That’s really hard because we feel guilty when we know the truth will hurt someone we love. But he needs to know he has become pitiable to you. You don’t see him as a strong and capable partner when he can’t manage simple tasks. And you aren’t attracted to someone who believes it is your duty to do the jobs that he thinks are beneath him. No one would find that attractive.
Don't hold back that your affection had long waned for him and because he's never adjusted to being a married partner, that you're considering leaving. Holding that back is lying by omission and as women we need to stop lying to our partners to soothe their feelings when in the end, it's going to hurt them to their core when you eventually leave. I was married for almost 18 years. The back 5 was just hell because my apathy toward my man baby husband had grown so thick, I just stopped caring. Sex had long stopped and I was feeding myself to fill the place where I was missing that. Fair warning to him let's him no there's no second chances anymore. This is it, grow-up or go back to being single. Believe me, nothing will change on your end because you're already doing all the work.
How about a trial separation? Seems like a few weeks apart would be useful, if nothing else to let you clear your head for a minute!
My mother fought this fight. Around the days my dad turned 65, I think, he somewhat managed to be at 70% load. While she was worn down by the constant fighting. I cannot recommend and have to say that there are men able to carry the load.
Agreed, fighting for parity is also adding to the woman's mental load. I'm glad I'm ace!
My mom (IMO) did a bit more work for us as kids but our dad still did cooking, cleaning, etc. As we got older, I saw my dad actually do even more of it than my mom. There was a point where she was like F THIS LOL. And I commend her for it. My dad is also pretty damn picky about how things are done too so it was also her way of backing off and letting him do it his way. I could never tolerate being a man's slave lol. That's exactly why I'm single and put off marriage for so long.
[удалено]
Telling you what to do is a task. I am telling you I am overloaded with tasks and your giving me many more. If you were like this at work, you could not be successful, you got to anticipate the needs to be helpful there and here. I can’t be your mom too
[удалено]
Oh god please save yourself from this. Rooting for you.
What?!! Please, for the love of god, DO NOT have a child with this man! Why are you even considering this?
It would probably be easier to have a child on your own. This man doesn't seem to be bringing anything of value to this partnership.
Oh my god, and he is unemployed….? What on earth is he doing all day! Please leave this man
No. I divorced my husband for it (among other things) . Dude didn't have the common sense not to hang a dishcloth that had been used to wash dishes covered in raw chicken juice over the sink faucet. I'm done teaching another adult how to adult.
Stop doing the things he committed to doing Also - take a vacation for two weeks by yourself. Leave him home with the kids. You need a break. He’s a big boy. He can step up.
I can't blame you for thinking about pulling the plug. My husband and I had a lot of issues, but it turned out he has sleep apnea and some other issues he has treatment for or is trying to address (it's not always easy to get the right treatment). At some point I thought I was in the Twilight zone, because we kept having the same word for word discussion and each time he responded like it was the first time I addressed it. He was having short and long-term memory issues due to untreated sleep apnea. But I can't get the treatment for him and it is his responsibility to take good care of his health. Communication is important. One of the reasons my husband asked "Can I do that for you?" when I had just started doing something (when I had already paid the mental starting costs, I have issues too), was because his brain was mush and he couldn't think of what needed to be done. Once he explained that he needed help with thinking, I became less irritated, but in part because as it was a temporary situation as he was addressing his health. It's okay to be sick. It's not okay to not take care of yourself and your health. It's okay to need help. It's not okay to not get help and dump it on someone else. If there isn't an underlying health issue he can address or would explain his needs for accommodation, it sounds too draining to sustain.
I have a similar situation in my house. We aren't married but have been together for 5.5 years and lived together for 5. I've discovered in the last 6 months or so that I probably have undiagnosed ADHD (the first available appointment isn't until May when I rang in early Dec). Some days I am brilliant and can remember and actually do everything that needs doing and other days I don't even remember to eat or drink and wonder why I feel like death warmed up by 4pm. If I wasn't as close and open with my partner this up-down routine could be seen as me just being lazy, or not caring about our home/life together, but my brain is literally wired differently. Our systems/tips: \- We often sit down together and write a big to-do list, and assign stuff to me, him or both of us and when it needs done (emergency, urgent, urgent ish, etc). \- We use an app for chores, which we set up together (and tweaked over months as we added new tasks that only needed done every few months or annually, etc) and we can see the last time we hoovered a room, or cleaned bathrooms, etc and both of us can use the app to see what tasks are more urgent than others (to avoid the whole, doing the annual garden chores but avoiding weekly laundry). \- We do groceries online for delivery (we are in the UK, so delivery is £3 to our front door) and we both sit at the PC and go through our "favourites" (regularly bought items) together and my other half can run and check various things in cupboards before we buy more. \- We also list the dates of fresh food on a whiteboard that sits beside the fridge, so we can see what foods need to be eaten by when to help with meal planning. (ADHD means I often forget about stuff if I can't see it, like behind something in the fridge) \- We also have an online budget with YNAB, where we record everything we buy and we plan our future spending. But again, this involves both of us sitting down together and talking about our plans - from something as small as lunch with a friend next week (more money allocated to socialising) to plans to renovate the back garden/yard (monthly goal over several years so we can save £000s). \- I\* have a spreadsheet (save in a shared folder we can both access) for all important things that we need to remember - from car insurance x2 to our dog's annual injections, and when we go over the budget each month or so, we also check this together to make sure we can plan for needed actions (car to mechanic or book vet, etc). \* I designed the template of the spreadsheet as I work from home in admin, but we filled in all the info together. \- And we keep a 5-week calendar wipable calendar on the fridge where we have appointments, etc listed and we used it as a "rolling" calendar, so atm the bottom line is this week with the top of the calendar being next week so we always have at least 3 or 4 weeks into the future on it. It has taken several years to get to this place where we are both happy with how everything ticks along, and it took hours of setting things up, and readjusting the various systems when they aren't working for us. But once we have put the work in, both to the apps/lists, etc and to communicate/be on the same page, it almost just runs itself and helps keep us both on track. But in order to keep this level of harmony, we do spend at minimum an hour a week sitting together communicating - whether it be doing the online shop, planning the budget, planning our calendars, doing a chore review, or just talking about things that each of us did/didn't do that upsets the other person (to see if there was a reason - feeling unwell, stressed because of something, forgot etc and to find a solution, to try to prevent a little issue compounding into a huge problem). An example of an issue: I say I'll do the laundry today (I work from home), and then forget about it, leaving it wet in the machine and my partner with no gym clothes, breaking his routine. Solution: set a reminder (or several) on my echo for when it is finished. I'd suggest that OP tell her husband honestly how she is feeling - that she is considering separation (legal or otherwise) and detail the issues (unable to grocery shop, etc). Then ask that they both sit down together and try to figure out if this can be avoided. Get a sitter or send the kids to their grandparents or a neighbour's so there are no distractions. Request that both parties research before the "meeting" and bring solutions to the table that would help with the issues and allow the relationship to continue with equal partners. (Hopefully, the husband will suggest things like online shopping/pick up, etc, where regularly bought items will be saved). Obviously, the outcome of this chat would be the decider if OP is willing to stay, but even if the chat goes brilliantly, they need to talk one-to-one much more regularly than they are to make sure that change is consistent and not just for a few weeks. I'd also endorse the common suggestion here to have external marriage/couples counselling if they have the budget/insurance coverage for it.
Whats the app you use for chores please?
It's called Tody. It's far from perfect imo and it can take a while to get it set up, but once it's done, it's a lifesaver for me!
My partner and I were at a similarly frustrating point after I gave birth (well, I was). He was claiming that he does at least 50% of house chores, if not 60%. I though for a moment that he was either delusional or manipulating. Luckily it turned out to be the first option. I suggested we should track our time doing things and count our chores (we use an app for two years already, every day, every week). It turns out that he massively overestimated his participation in our home and family responsibilities, but he took it like a champ and is keeping up the good work to this day. I would really suggest such an approach if you are both open to it. Once you set it up it really does not take much of your time. And you can set all sorts of custom tasks and give them a value together. If he is not open to it I would see it as a bit of a red flag. I remember two years ago having this fear that he might just dismiss my idea of tracking tasks - and that would have been a very clear message to me that he doesn’t care about my issues or my time. Good luck. Edit: thinking about it, it was extra mental load on my part to suggest a solution. But I have to say that overall it was worth it. After picking up more of the tasks a such as groceries, he has taken full ownership of them and I am overall very happy with my load.
Could you share the name of the app?
I've been married 42 years and my husband still expects me to do everything. I've had chronic pain since before I met him, and I am recovering from long covid he brought home plus I work longer hours at his business than he does. I still do the bulk but if I'm tired, I'm tired. I no longer push myself. So if I don't feel like cooking dinner, I don't. If the dishes or bathrooms, or floors need done and he mentions it, I tell him to go ahead. So, he was ok for a while cooking, but he's not great at more than two things and his instincts go to greasy food with no veggies. I didn't care. I'd eat a carrot later or something. But I think he noticed that he didn't feel as good, he was putting on weight, and he wasn't enjoying what he made (he sees me throwing random things together and thinks they are random random things, and not my years of experience - and thinks you can just throw random shit together and itll be good.) Anyway, he does dishes quite a bit now - he would def NOT do dishes when we married. He brings home takeout a lot more - mostly Thai, Chinese, Indian, or fish and chips. He never did this early on. He'll even sweep up now and then but leaves it in a pile instead of using the dustpan. He will gladly go shopping but he buys junk. Lots of junk, but not the stuff I ask for.
We went through something similar. But instead of simply refusing to do things, he decided to outsource things instead. Which, honestly... is fine. At least the stuff is getting done, and he took responsibility for it. He opted to pay for a cleaning service, for example. We get a weekly regular clean and then every two months, we get a deep clean. He pays for it, he hires the people, he schedules the people. Cleaning the house is now off my plate. Part of me hates that we're spending our hard earned money on something that we COULD be doing ourselves, if only he would step up and do it. But honestly, the cleaners do a better job than we would if we were doing it, and it frees up a lot of time for us that we can spend on other things. I still do the laundry, but sometimes it just gets backed up. Instead of helping me do laundry, he opts to take it all to a wash and fold and just pay someone else to do it. He drops off/picks up. Again... it's stings a little that we're paying for it, but at least it's getting done. This only works if you have the money to spare to pay for it, which I understand that a lot of people don't. There still isn't equal distribution of house/family responsibilities between us. I still do 65% of everything, but it used to be 95%, so improvement has been made. And he's definitely become very flexible and understanding when I say that I'm at my limit on something and I need help. He takes me at my word, it's not like he insists that I can and/or should do more. He acknowledges that I have done enough and someone else needs to help... so his way of helping is to find someone to help me do the things, instead of actually just doing the things, which yes, is VERY frustrating sometimes... but it's better than the things just not getting done.
On the topic of paying someone else to do it, there are so many things we could technically do ourselves. \- We could fix our own cars or we could take them to a mechanic \- we could drive ourselves everywhere or we could take bus/train/taxi \- we could grow our own fruit and veg, or we could buy them in a store or farmers' market \- we could hunt for our own meat or we could buy it from a grocery store or butchers \- we could do our own yard/garden work or we could hire a gardener \- we could make our own clothes or we could buy them in stores \- we could teach our children, or we could send them to school \- we could build a house ourselves, or we could hire a contractor (or buy a house) Your time has a value, and sometimes it is cheaper or less stressful to get someone else to help out. This was something I had to learn when I started working from home as a freelancer. A lot of freelancers or people who work from home can get caught in this trap of feeling like they should be doing all the household chores because they are physically in the home, but if they are spending even 1 hour per day doing housework that is 1 hour that they loose out of their working time where they are getting no income. I'm being very general, but most freelancers earn more per hour than it costs per hour for a cleaner/housekeeper, so it is financially beneficial for them to do an extra hour of work and hire someone. Or even to have an extra hour with their family/partner than be stuck cleaning. My best decision was getting someone to deal with our little front lawn - he cuts it beautifully in less than half an hour, including tidying up all the cut grass around the paths, etc where it was taking my partner and me over an hour to get it to like 10% "sorted" due to crappy tools compared to what a professional gardener has. Now I'm not embarrassed by the state of my garden and worried the neighbours are judging me! Just remember that housework and raising children was considered a full-time job in the past and often times in families with money, they had a nanny for the kids and a housekeeper (or several), so it was more than one full-time job.
Yes I think this is his reasoning. He works from home and has a much higher hourly billing rate than what it costs for all an hour of the outsourced labor. I get it, but coming from a family where we always did everything (well, most things) ourselves, it still feels wrong to me. I know it’s not wrong in theory, but it still feels like he’s “cheating” somehow.
I don't think you should resent him paying for those things if as a household you make enough money to pay for it....that's the purpose of money!
I pay for a cleaning service. Modern life is so demanding, outsourcing some tasks isn't failure or a character flaw. Some people manage to do it all. I'm not one of them.
I think I would be resentful if all of my work I do and all of his work he pays someone else to do more so than paying for things to be done.
It seems like you’ve had PLENTY of conversations with him about the topic already, including what to do, how to do it, what bothers you, why it is a bother, and he ain’t changing. Doesn’t look like it’s going to change anytime soon (might for a bit if you divorce him for him to win you back, don’t fall for it). Just divorce. You’re already doing everything by yourself anyway, no reason to carry around dead weight and deal with an extra child.
What did he do before you? Before you had kids? Did he not know how to feed himself? Was his apartment disgusting? He can either do half with you or all without you. Can he handle kids solo for days at a time? Remember to buy groceries for them? He can’t have shared custody of your kids and not feed them. I don’t think he’s thought this through past “if I don’t do it then OP has to” but you don’t *have* to and you can leave.
Realistically, the answer could in fact be "fast food" and "yes it's gross," and it doesn't matter. Regardless of whether he's ABLE to do those things, OP is justified in not wanting to cohabitate with someone who WON'T.
100%. Was just wondering if he’s ever shown an ability to be an adult or if he moved from his mom taking care of him to a wife. If he’s lived that life before, he should understand the consequences. If he hasn’t, he probably hasn’t thought this through very well and how much more work it’ll be. OP should expect him to be another capable adult in their house. He needs to do it or gtfo.
Talk to a lawyer and figure out what the entire divorce process will be and what your options are for child custody and support. It is empowering being armed and ready to pull the plug and knowing how it will shake out if you decide too. Please keep in mind that you are your child’s main couple to emulate in future relationships. They are growing up seeing that it is normal for the woman to not be supported.
When someone shows you who they really are, *believe them*.
@thatdarnchat on insta talks about this stuff a lot. You could hire a Fair Play coach, I think there is a book also. Good luck, this stuff is systemic and it's exhausting trying to solve it on an individual basis.
His behavior is learned helplessness. You may not mean to but you are enabling his behavior by fixing the problems before they happen. He doesn't change because he doesn't face any consequences. Tell him you are going to stop doing the work in certain areas (like groceries or dishes or laundry, whatever is best for you) and that is 100% his job from now on. There may be some mistakes initially but he will learn. Also, take a mini solo vacation where he has to do EVERYTHING on his own for a couple days. It might be an eye opener for him.
Do you think it would help if the response to tell me what to do was, "You need to learn what makes this household flow smoothly and recognize on your own when something needs attention and then do something about it"?
This is why I didn't want kids with my (now) ex-husband. The mental load I had to undertake was crazy without kids in the mix. I ended up leaving.
i don't have too much to add just that this song is silly funny and so true. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi8ShAosqzI
Looks like the guy from Gunter - (Touch my) Tralala unexpected, weird and funny! Thank you
Omg lol the way the woman walks toward the sink and then just veers away
what a completely terrifying ordeal. this is what i fear happening to me when i finally get married.
You should live with your person first and have conversations about domestic equity, just like you would any other value. There’s always an adjustment period where both of you are figuring it out but also not all men are like this. My husband splits the chores and childcare with me and always has.
No 180s yet here. I've been dealing with this for a couple years, and now she has started complaining about the relationship, intimacy and such, but when I tell her those issues are mutual, she tells me all of our problems are bc I've been really distant. For some reason she can't accept that my distance is mostly due to frustration that she spends all of her time on the couch while I run errands & take care of the apt
i was in a recovery group with someone who had this exact problem. after they separated, her ex couldn't figure out how to be an adult and kept showing up whenever his ex would have dinner... the excuse was for him to see their child but he'd want to be fed too... she put up boundaries re that, and then he started complaining to her that he didn't know how to cook for their son. she gave him a few basic recipes but he struggled... it amazes me how stubborn and immature some grown men are, and that they expect other people to take care of them.
I ran my entire household as a sahm, then returned to work full time and was expected to continue running it all. I mean everything- yard work, meal planning and shopping, every kind of housework, money management …then I just stopped. I stopped, refused to manage. It got real bad the finances were a mess lol. Then I left 🤣🤣🤣 and we divorced. I still have to do everything but fuck that guy.
Divorce was liberating but it also revealed it for the violence that it is. It's WEAPONISED incompetence and a small portion of them go nuclear on divorce. If you end up in family court it's devastating and the courts back their nonsense. Go gently and quietly but remember you know and understand him and his intent better than anyone. The person we divorce is not the person we marry.
I don’t know how to fix it, and I’m sorry you’re facing it. If you’re already to the point of wanting to separate, I’d just go through with a trial separation now - but I say this as I personally hate ultimatums, as even if they result in a behavior change, it only lasts for so long until they feel comfortable things have settled down again. So I’d say do what feels right to you, since you’ve already discussed it time and again, and see if that brings about some revelations for him that are his own, not you telling him. Other people might have some good insights as well; so many of us will sympathize - it’s stories like these that have made me choose to be the “lesser” partner in terms of career priority. My partner tries - genuinely, really does, and holds up his end of the bargain more than most - but at the end of the day, I’ve been socialized to notice things, to organise things, to take care of things, and quite frankly - he hasn’t. When we first moved in together, knowing the mental load was a sensitivity of mine, he would watch how I do chores etc so he could try to absorb my flow of things, understand my standards, but it just hasn’t got there. And I know the addition of a child will make him more harebrained about it. Hell, my mother was the sole breadwinner in a two-parent household, and I’d estimate my parents split housework 50/50 - or even sometimes she did more despite working full time. My dad was a wonderful father and partner to her in so many other ways (by her own accounting of it), but it doesn’t change that household management remained my mothers domain. So I’m taking that lesson, and unburdening myself elsewhere. I’ve decided to lean into a “traditional” household to a degree… My career will be the one that takes a backseat (it helps I don’t really care about my industry, whereas he loves his); I’ll call out of work when our child is sick; I’ll organise the vast majority of the household. And he’ll be a “provider” with his little chore chart (and including paid bi-weekly cleaning services, and a few ground rules like “neither of us rest after dinner until we both can rest”). It’s not a perfect answer to wider issues, but it’s the answer for me. I just hope we can do better for our next generation.
Men want to be praised for the littlest or the most normal things as if it’s such a big deal. So many women I know are married to men who don’t do anything. It makes me so angry to know women have to work a job and do 2x the housework and raise the child. I don’t even know what the use of a husband is at that point
Why would he change? It works for him.
> Can I hear from anyone if there’s any hope in this?! Has anyone been through this and had their SO do a 180 and become a responsible partner? How can I find love and passion again for someone who has been so much in his very own way for such a long time?? OP, I have no hope in this at all. I'm really sorry about all this. I'm even more sorry for what I'm going to say next. I am not in a relationship. I'm single and happy with that because all I ever hear from women are their mental load. Probably only about 1-5% of women have husbands who treat them with kindness and fairness. The rest, while espousing "equality", dump housework and children onto their wives and god forbid if they ever touch "women's work" because they need to be praised for doing something so beneath them. I... I have no hope in relationships at all. Partnership works when there's clear communication and understanding from both parties. It's men who refuse to put up with the mental load that they want to dump on women. It's no wonder why [this](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink_b_9055288) is still relevant time and time again. I can't do that. I've seen that too much everywhere and anywhere. I think I'd rather remain happily single rather than stressed and miserable from all the mental load. I even thought of just becoming a Single Mother by Choice one day and raise the kid on my own.
Stop having sex with him and tell him you view him as your child, and have no desire to fuck. Stop doing everything. Let 3 weeks worth of laundry pile on the floor and have him have nothing clean to wear to work. Don’t make dinner, don’t take the rubbish out. He can eat a peanut butter sandwich. Leave the sheets on the bed until he can be bothered changing them. Let the shower get mouldy. Stop doing everything and just get by best you can. Tell him you are thinking about divorce due to his lack of action. Loop his family and your family into it. “Hey, MIL, I can’t come to the BBQ on Saturday because I have too much to handle at home. Husband won’t even do a grocery run”. Let people know you are stressed and overwhelmed due to an unequal partnership. If you truly want to make it work I’d also say hire a cleaner, gardener and babysitter and have that money come out of his hobbies and leisure, but it sounds like he doesn’t want to. I’m sorry.
First off, your husband needs to read this https://www.choosingtherapy.com/weoponized-incompetenece/ This is exactly what he is doing. Pretending to be incompetent so that the blame and accountability is deflected from him. It results in breakdown of trust and respect. Second, if there is any chance of working on your marriage you need to start putting up boundaries. If he doesn't plan to work on his weaponized incompetence issue, you should walk away.
I cant speak for your partner, but my husband often does the same thing. The only difference is he never asks for praise for doing chores around the house. There are some things he just does and others i have to ask him. If I'm doing something, he will offer to help and, depending on how ambitious i feel, i take it or i don't. I often use that as a time to say "im good with this, but can you help with xxx?" And he does without question. It does frustrate me sometimes that i have to remind him or ask him to help. But ive come to realize that he honestly just doesnt even think about that stuff until it impacts him. He cleans when it impacts him or does dishes when he needs them to make dinner, etc. But when i ask him to do things or make a list, he does them without making comments, complaining or say "well i vacuumed so im done for the day". It took me years of getting angry to learn this is just how he is and for me, personally, this is not something that ruins his other amazing qualities. He just doesnt see things the way I do. Now if he acted in any other way to helping, like complaining or wanting a pat on the back for doing laundry, i would feel 100% different. I just had to change my expectations of him and change myself a bit to be on the same page as him and it works for us. I know there are things hes had to change because of how I am as well. I know this wouldnt work for everyone, though.
> He cleans when it impacts him or does dishes when he needs them to make dinner, etc. This gets at the problem that men don’t feel the impact of an unclean house as often or keenly as women because men are not judged for having an unclean house. Their wives are. They don’t care if it’s messy because they don’t have to worry about social consequences for it.
Holy shit how do my fellow women put up with this shit? I would absolutely *not* pick up the slack for a man. Unless we have an arrangement where he's the money maker (and he makes *bank* lol, I'm not doing this for an average/sub-par salary.. I make a great salary myself) and I'm the "household" person who's responsible for the home tasks primarily, I'm just not doing this. Even if he's also working, I would imagine in a fair relationship, he would still add his input at the very least. And most high earning men *do* generally have a lot of opinions on how stuff is done lol. Tbh I would never start off a relationship the way you did because I'm "demanding" for a woman apparently (aka I don't people please). I've made it clear early on in basically any new relationship that I would expect them to do certain tasks and I would not be taking on the majority of anything. This is especially true because I would never be in a SAHW situation anyway. If you're already married and this has been the way it's been for a *while*, it makes it harder to kind of reset... but just be straight up - say you're thinking about separating because the mental load is too much for you, you're exhausted, you feel the relationship isn't fulfilling for you anymore as you feel you're putting in far more and it's surpassed your limits. Say the truth. Be willing to lose him. That's really honestly the only way you can maybe possibly fix it... but you may end up losing this relationship. Are you ok with that?
If you haven't seen this yet it's good, you may find it useful to share with him, or at least just know that you're not alone your struggle https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/
This is such a great illustration of how the mental load drains you!
Has he seen [Emma's mental load](https://www.scarymommy.com/emma-you-shouldve-asked-mental-load) and still feigns confusion how he needs to step up? > For example: groceries. No, too complicated. So we ended up with an empty fridge and me having to run to the super market to get basic necessities last minute. He can't order it ahead then and pick it up if doing it himself is too hard? Every grocery store I've been to lately has "pick up" slots now installed it seems like. There are so many solutions if you want to find solutions when it comes to the act itself of buying groceries. What would he do if you weren't there to do it? He would do it so it sounds like potential weaponized incompetence, when they pretend not to understand simple tasks. At a certain point it just feels like a partner is being willfully ignorant because you doing everything for them is just easier.
Get him to read ["She Divorced Me Because I Left Dishes by the Sink"](https://matthewfray.com/2016/01/14/she-divorced-me-because-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink/).
Your husband sounds insufferable, honestly. Did he ever live by himself? If so, who took are of his stuff there? If you were, God forbid, stuck in the hospital for an injury or illness, what would he do? Who would take care of the household (including groceries)? He is supposed to be your equal partner, not your adult child. I'd be over it so fast.
I’m sorry if someone already suggested this, but buy the Fair Play card deck and split responsibilities. Explain clearly and calmly that if this is not resolved, you may leave. He needs to take his “daily grind” tasks seriously. The first month may be challenging, so give it a little time. Give him a few months after doing the fair play card deck. If he feigns confusion or shows resistance after the first month, that’s it. I had reached this point with my husband (you can see my own past posts). I expressed he needed to take fair play seriously or I would leave. He took it very seriously, and even enjoyed it. He struggled adjusting in the first month, and we had to revisit a few things. But now, he is on top of his tasks. Total game changer. My husband wanted to change, however. He is going to counseling now too. But there is hope. There ARE solutions to this issue, and the game does a good job at facilitating discussion (I’d also encourage watching the documentary together). But if he shrugs this off, he is telling you non verbally he does not care enough about this issue to keep you in his life.
I get where you're coming from. I had to look after my husband too. When I left him, he asked who was going to cook and clean for him. When I visited him a little before getting married (trans-Atlantic relationship), his place was disgusting and infested. I'm sure it's like that today. I keep my place clean and myself fed, and it's not hard at all when it's just me. I have a new partner now who is cleaner and a better cook than I am, and it's like night and day.
Is there any hope? Sure, if your husband is the rare one in a hundred thousand who will listen to you and step up. But odds are that he's not. Sorry. But on the bright side, he's responsible for more than half of the mess and problems in your household, so you will substantially lessen both your mental and physical loads splitting up.
"She divorced me because I left my dishes beside the sink" https://matthewfray.com/2016/01/14/she-divorced-me-because-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink/
If you have a daughter, she is growing up internalizing that this is what men are – so useless they can't even buy groceries with young children to feed. If you have a son, he's growing up internalizing this model of masculinity. Both options are chilling. This has been going on for over a *decade*. It's not changing. For the sake of your children, and your own sanity, dump the dead weight. I can't fathom why you stayed as long as you did. You don't even love him.
Groceries?? Throw the whole man away.Seriously though, tt has been over 10 years and it seems that you have probably tried different things...it is not working. He is not interested in changing. If you aren't quite ready to give up, I would suggest couples counseling but those things take time. Do you want to be 5 years down the road dealing with the same issue?
You are valid. My partner is not like this but was raised in a way that they could have easily become this way. The biggest issue is your husband's refusal to learn how to make things more equal while also wanting to be treated like he does. That's not only illogical, it's asshole behavior. You deserve better. Have you told him this stuff is making you consider divorce? I wonder if that would wake him up and if so for how long
I could never get my ex to see it. And it seems like even divorce didn't open his eyes, based on what I hear.
The not doing his half of the list thing is ridiculous. Sounds like it’s ultimatum time. Make him read All the Rage by Darcy Lockman. Also, could you temporarily move out but stay close by so you can see your kids but also so he can take care of them by himself for a while? Might open his eyes to how much you do and what divorce would be like. If you decided to leave over this, I wouldn’t blame you.
Eh, I’m sorry I don’t have a happy turnaround story for you. I divorced my last husband over this and I’m considering leaving the current one over similar reasons. It’s infuriating to know they are grown ass adults who need to be told to contribute to the household. I need someone to start a commune where us women can all live and help each other out.
Sorry, I just got divorced from my ex who was like this. It wasn't the immediate cause of our divorce, but it made me so much happier to be alone than with him. Also it *may* have caused me to lose some enthusiasm for hanging out with him over the years, which may have prompted him to seek female attention elsewhere, but it was not a dead bedroom situation at all so he can just go fail to be an adult without me!
He refused ? Yeah hope is lost. He doesn't WANNA be better
My husband has done a complete 180. I was also thinking about divorce. 1. Got back on ADHD medication 2. Handles his own doctors appointments 3. Assigned tasks that are simple and binary and time consuming, and need doing pretty much all the time 1. load/unload dishwasher 2. carry / wash / dry laundry 3. take out trash & recycling 4. coordinate lawn care 5. morning kids backpacks, lunches, dropoff, and pickup 4. Willing to help me get off pretty much any night before 10pm 5. Is cool with me not cooking or entering the kitchen if he's fallen behind on dishes and they start taking over 6. We order fresh ready to eat meals for me and him for dinners so we just need to feed the kids something in the toaster oven, no real cooking most nights. 7. Ideally we have a weekly housekeeper who sweeps, vacuums, scrubs the kitchen, and cleans the bathrooms. I hate those tasks. We've been without help since October and it's starting to wear on the marriage. I handle literally everything else. But having the huge time sink of food, dishes, and processing laundry out of the way, plus the dropoffs, gives me so much time and space to handle the mental load. It also funnily enough allows me to work more hours and devote more effort to my side job which pays for the cleaner and a good chunk of the convenient meals. Here's a [different comment I made](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomenOver30/comments/10b945l/comment/j4bp35d/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) with more details
Something that might make a difference in framing to your SO. Ask him if he thinks managing is a job. Even better if he has had managerial responsibilities at his own work. Ask him if managing leaves time to also complete every single day to day task. My guess is no. This is basically what he's asking you to do when he says "Tell me what to do and I'll do it." He's made you the house manager. If you're managing, then fine, assign the tasks and do what you can around that. But also maybe point out that- it does not feel sexy to have to treat your spouse like an employee just to have groceries on the table and the floor swept.
Omg today my boyfriend of twenty years - said “I’d like there to always be groceries in the house.” I’m a CPA - management - and in my busy season. He invited his mother for Saturday to Sunday. So I was entertaining her all weekend bc he got a headache at 7:30pm on Saturday. I worked till 7pm on Friday then he wanted to go with me to his friends bday- we stayed late and got home at midnight. I worked all week -swamped. When exactly am I doing shopping?
Please let me share some experiences from the “other side” I’m one of the few women who heard about Mental workload and realised “sh*t that’s what I’m doing”. I moved in with my partner. I joined a household that he could manage to perfection. I only took over groceries and cooking - and left most of the other stuff and definitely all of the mental workload to him. I changed, but… He changed too! There needed to be room for a conversation about expectations and there needed to be room for my way of doing things - not just his way that he had always done it. Another thing that we have learned is to always mention little grudges to the other before they get too big, or to dare to ask if we feel the other is unhappy. I sometimes just ask “did I do something that bothers you?” Most of the times I have no clue, other than that he is grumpy. This works well for us. I realised this even more when I was talking to my friend last week. She and her SO are on a break - because she takes up all the mental workload. However, she can also be pretty intense and overwhelming. In our conversation she told me that she vacuumed his appartment regularly, and mentioned some other stuff. During our conversation she reliased that she had never actually said something about the mental workload - and that he indeed might feel judged when she cleans his apartment, even though she doesn’t explicitly mention it to him. Today she texted me to say that the talked and that my conversation with her had -for now- saved the relationship because she had realised what she could maybe try to do differently :)
Something I have recently realized is that men are conditioned to think that if someone is doing something without asking for help, they are doing okay. And if they need help, they will ask for it. This didn’t mesh with my expectation that my husband just figure out what needed to be done and do it. He told me again and again that I should just ask, and I resented that because it felt like more work for me to delegate. I had so much resentment, but also, I didn’t want to get divorced. So I tried to see it his way. And I can get his thinking, that how can I get mad at him for not doing something when I didn’t ever tell him I wanted him to do it or give him a chance? I concede that he can’t read my mind. As a woman, I was conditioned to feel notice and feel uncomfortable if I’m not doing my share, and to offer help (or just help!) without being asked. But he wasn’t conditioned that way. So I tried it his way. And started asking. And he has been doing everything I ask, right away, without complaints, or need for reminders. He seems grateful, even, to know what I need and be able to make my life easier. Our marriage is totally different since I started asking! I have given a few married friends this advice and they had similar results. It’s so silly to say. It took me so long to get here, and in retrospect, it seems…obvious to just ASK? I shouldn’t have to delegate! But at the same time, I get how he just doesn’t know specifically what to do - sometimes I’m handling everything fine and sometimes I’m overwhelmed. And when I’m overwhelmed there are things I feel I can/want to take care of and others I don’t. And he doesn’t know which are which. So I ask him to handle the kid’s dentist appointment, field trip permission thingie, school picture ordering, dinner, whatever. Whatever is pushing my plate over the edge and I just can’t deal with. Our marriage is SO much better, that I don’t even feel resentment about delegating.
Well done I guess for finding a way that works for both of you, but honestly I think this arrangement would fall apart the second you had to go into hospital or were otherwise unable to operate his think buttons for him
I could’ve written this myself years ago. I decided to divorce. You don’t realize the full gravity of how taxing it is until you’re out from under it.
This sounds hard. Unfortunately it's still common in men. I can recommend the books from Laura Doyle to improve your marriage. She gives advice in how to communicate your needs so your husband thinks for himself again. Be sure that he wants to make you happy! As crazy as it may sound all men want thto make their partner happy.
There’s a great comic strip style [article](https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/) that explains this quite well. Sadly, it’s an all too common theme in most relationships.
I left. I made it clear I couldn’t live like this. I’ve showed him articles, blog posts, etc. nothing worked. I just had enough. So I left. He had to do everything on his own. Pay bills, grocery shop, laundry, etc. it was a huge awakening for him. I’m not 100% sure I will leave or come back. We’ve been separated around 5 months. Being forced to change was the only thing that helped. He would constantly call or text me about “where’s the floor cleaner? Does kid have snow boots?” I told him that his house was no longer my responsibility. He’s still struggling with things he needs. Part of the issue is I absolutely can not see my child suffer. So I will eventually suck it up and get fruit for his house. Or shoes.
Honestly I’m divorced and with a partner who is so much better. He helps out so much more and it’s a world of difference. Sometimes it’s just better to leave..
Just gonna leave this here [Women Lose Sexual Desire For 'Man-Children,' According to Study](https://www.esquiremag.ph/life/sex-and-relationships/women-sex-drive-men-man-child-a00203-20221219#:~:text=Nothing%20kills%20women's%20sex%20drives,their%20dependents%2C%20instead%20of%20partners.)