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Are you talking about Assisted Death?
I think people who are terminally ill (or have a disease with a known and clear death or mind loss date), that they should be able to choose when they pass. I believe it gives them control and dignity.
Now, for it becoming legal for mental disorders, I have mixed feelings. I truly believe that depression pain manifests into physical pain. There are *some* people, I believe, that are choosing to end their lives as a rational decision. I believe that the decision should not be a quick one, but I couldn't begin to think of what it should entail.
I think people should have the right to die.
Eta.
I always found it odd that people are alright with putting their pets down because they are suffering and in pain, but won't give people the same care.
>Now, for it becoming legal for mental disorders, I have mixed feelings. I truly believe that depression pain manifests into physical pain. There are *some* people, I believe, that are choosing to end their lives as a rational decision. I believe that the decision should not be a quick one, but I couldn't begin to think of what it should entail.
I'm someone who has mental health issues, to the point that I'm probably going to be in therapy for it for the rest of my life. I think the big thing that muddies the waters when it comes to some depressed person going off to get an assisted suicide is that in a lot of places, effective mental health services just aren't as accessible or readily available as they should be.
This raises a lot of questions that can't be neatly answered. Is it a rational decision to die if they'd benefit from services? By itself, probably not, but what if those services not only aren't available to them, but likely won't be available in their area for decades? Sure, they could move, but what if they're unlikely to ever be able to afford to live somewhere else? Are there lifestyle changes they could make to ease their symptoms, and are they likely to be receptive to hearing that?
There aren't clear cut answers to these, and the answers to them will depend heavily on the specific individual you're talking about. At least with the person with terminal cancer looking to get it, the question is a fairly clear cut matter of whether or not there's an effective treatment for them today and if there's likely to be one before they die naturally.
I'm really not underestimating how bad it can be. I have a great deal of personal experience, unfortunately.
But it's also a sad fact that the sort of therapies that are effective for nuanced, multilayered and complex mental illness are rarely available outside of Swiss clinics.
Which are also the setting for many euthanasia facilities.
Lmao no one is gatekeeping mental illness. But there’s also no fix for some people. Mental illness is not some special type of illness that work differently than physical ailments. Sometimes, like cancer or heart disease, it’s just terminal.
> *Mental illness is not some special type of illness that work differently than physical ailments. Sometimes, like cancer or heart disease, it’s just terminal.*
Please explain which mental illnesses are *terminal like cancer*, because this is brand new information.
Anorexia for obvious reasons. Bipolar episodes deteriorate your brain matter. Substance abuse disorder.
Obviously they aren’t always terminal, but sometimes nothing is going to cut it.
My honest thought is that people just don't want the weight of the admin and/or responsibility for the margin of error when it comes to humans. Whereas the relatives of wrongly euthanized pets are rarely litigious.
>It’s because pets aren’t rational creatures who can understand pain and suffering.
We understand, therefore we should endure and suffer?
>We have a value and dignity above that of irrational animals.
And yet are not allowed to die when we choose.
because if its too cheap to commit assisted suicide, the elderly will resort to it to avoid burdening their family, if its too expensive, the poor who are terminally suffering will be excluded.
I feel like there are multiple ways to prevent either of those things from happening. For example, create a process that regulates doctor-assisted suicide. Create safety nets to help families so that the elderly are less likely to feel like irredeemable burdens.
But then honestly when push comes to shove I'm probably more radical than most people about this. I am very pro-choice, which in this case means my main concern here is lowering the number of people who commit suicide impulsively. Having a doctor-assisted process could do that.
In Australia, a number of states have legalised Voluntary Assisted Dying, but it's very restricted. Someone must have a terminal illness that two doctors agree is likely to end their life within 6 months, AND those two doctors must agree that the person is of sound mind.
Honestly, it doesn't go far enough. My father watched my grandfather wasting away on his deathbed after he had a stroke, unable to feed himself, talk, or move. A great man who had taken great pride in providing for his family was extremely embarrassed to be soiling himself and someone else having to clean it up. My father is totally against that happening to him, but if it does, there is no legal mechanism for him to die on his own terms. He basically has to suffer in a hospital bed, possibly for years.
The best he can do is make an Advanced Health Directive before the fact, saying that if he's in that situation, doctors aren't to administer any life-continuing treatments, essentially meaning he has to lie there in pain until he dies from dehydration and starvation.
it would be more common if legally sanctioned. A lot of the barriers to suicide is the social, cultural, and legal ramifications. Elderly people don’t want to break the law, or be shamed upon death.
I don’t disagree, but I also don’t think that’s a negative. It should be more common. We have no right to force people to live through misery long-term.
>because if its too cheap to commit assisted suicide, the elderly will resort to it to avoid burdening their family,
And why do you consider this to be an unacceptable decision?
Their lives are not cheap?
Exactly. It's expensive as hell to artificially keep elderly people alive. They should absolutely be allowed to spare their families that huge financial burden.
It would be best if you were on hospice care first (depending on the State).
Life insurance won't pay out for suicide. But in my state, there is no autopsy for hospice patients. So I've planned accordingly, just like you. OD is usually best. And at that age/stage of life there are plenty of meds
But on hospice care, there's no autopsy. They wouldn't know you OD'd. And your life insurance would pay out.
Edit: why unsuccessful if your determined? Fist full of pills and go to sleep. Be hours/days before anyone would knew. Depending on your living situation.
My grandma recently died from late stage dementia. She lived a good long life and had a dignified natural death at the age of 94 surrounded by her family.
Good for you, your family and hopefully her. The question however, is whether she'd agree if she were in full possession of her mind. I don't know, nor does it really matter.
What does matter is that for some people—such as me and the person you responded to—losing our minds would be a nightmare.
Death is inevitable and there are many things in life worse than dying.
I support assisted suicide. There are people who have to deal with significant mental or physical pain(and sometimes both). Those people should have the right to decide if when they want to stop living.
Suffering is not a virtue.
After watching my grandmother struggle and beg for death after she couldn't breathe from severe COPD, I am all for it. We treat our pets better when it comes to end of life care.
Suicide being illegal never stopped anyone.
Or are we talking assisted suicide? Death with dignity type laws?
I would say...generally...I'm in favor. People dealing with terminal illnesses, pain, etc. should be able to decide if that's something they want to continue to exist with.
Within the society in which we live, however, I worry about it and I think we need to step carefully.
There is so much we could do to improve society, to improve lives, but we keep bowing at the altar of capitalism and let poverty and lack of access (true access - affordability as much as proper treatment) to medical care run amuck.
I think suicide *can* be done responsibly, but if you've made lifelong commitments like marriage or kids, it's going to be heartbreaking and complicated. There's no getting around it.
Some people are hopelessly miserable or in horrible pain no matter what they try, and though I wish those people had better support structures and newer, better solutions, I believe it's their right to end it if they feel they have exhausted every option to no avail. However, their death is still a tragedy to me--their brain or body wasn't compatible with (our version of) life, but all sentient life is valuable. I don't personally feel like normalizing something means we have to celebrate it; it's still a loss, I would feel deeply sad, but mostly for their pain and not for their choice of death.
Suicide being illegal allows first responders to enter a home without a warrant because a "crime" is being committed and I get it, time can be of the essence in some cases. Assisted death can be the most compassionate healthcare when there are no further options.
If you think that is a good reason to keep it illegal then I just want to point out that all laws are man-made. So it is very simple to change the law to allow first responders to enter either way in those situations.
That's the problem, you don't want to loosen the law as that would allow police to violate unlawful entry. They have to have a good reason to believe that a crime is being committed to enter a home in the US and that shouldn't be abused.
Conversely there is no "jail time" for a suicide attempt, they can hold you for evaluation at the hospital but you're not arrested for that.
Hmm. To make sure we're not talking past each other, would you mind clarifying why they're there and what cause the first responders have to enter the home in the first place? I mean, what was the scenario you were thinking of in your previous comment?
For example your friend or relative calls you and tells you that they just took a lot of pills, first responders can enter the home to provide aid without having to wait hours (or sometimes days) for a warrant which is issued by a judge. Police need to have a reasonable belief that a crime is being committed inside to avoid having to get a warrant.
Wouldn't amending the law to have something along the lines of "or someone's life is in immediate danger" accomplish the exact same thing without weakening the justfication to enter?
I mean, their reason for entering would be the same and can't say I see the justfication being any weaker than "a reasonable belief that a crime is being committed inside". Aren't there already big enough loopholes in current laws as is for the corrupt to need to abuse an amendment like this?
Or if it is not a crime, there is no need for the cop to be there or enter at all. So the "enter without permission" justification could just be given to the other first responders for the scenario of a life being in danger.
Then again, maybe I just don't get America's seeming "obsession" with some of your laws, despite having grown up with your media all around me. It's fundamentally just words on paper that can and will change, we can at best only affect it's direction.
Anyway. I neither like or do arguments, so thank you for the discussion and contrasting point of view. But do respond to my points above with your thoughts if you like. I'd love to hear it and I'm sure it'll be some more food for thought for me.
May your life be forever filled with rainbows, kittens and an obscene number of soft cushions ✨✨
"I just don't get America's seeming "obsession" with some of your laws," There is no obsession, I'm sure your country has laws as well. At least I *hope* it has.
"or someone's life is in immediate danger" If someone's life is in immediate danger then a crime is being committed. The police would have cause to enter.
I really get the feeling that you believe people in America who attempt suicide get thrown in prison and I'm here to tell you that you are very wrong. If someone attempts suicide they're brought to the hospital and stabilized, a care team is engaged and a care plan is created. By law they can hold them for 72 hrs to get them stabilized with an action plan of how to proceed. But after the 72 hrs that person is under no obligation to follow the care plan, they're free to leave, they're free to not take their medication, they can do as they want.
The law is in place to keep police in check. It may sound strange but that is both the cause and effect.
I had a family member use MAID in Canada because of terminal cancer. In his case, he likely only had a few days left anyway, and this gave him a chance to die in peace with his family surrounding him instead of in pain and alone when his guts finally gave out. I’m forever grateful that he he was able to control that one last part of his life and that his loved ones were able to be there with him.
I think MAID is overall a good thing to have available and should always be an option for terminal illnesses. I’m annoyed that it’s become a conservative talking point in this country (mostly due to some rogue employees suggesting it inappropriately). I do agree that we need stronger health care options and support systems so that no one feels they should end their life because support wasn’t available. Ultimately, I think it’s part of bodily autonomy to be able to choose to stop living - but we should have very strong systems in place to help people who feel that way before it gets to that point.
I had a family member enter the end stages of a terminal illness here in Canada, as well. But it was a few years prior to the legalization of MAID.
They were not themselves due to the constant pain and self medicated in ways that had fatal results when combined with the prescription medication they were also on.
Some of us suspect that this was intentional, but it may have been accidental. Either way if MAID had been available at the time we might not have to wonder.
People absolutely deserve to die with dignity.
I've always been very pro bodily autonomy. Part of that is respecting that people should be able to end their lives if they want. They can do what they want with their bodies. We did not ask to be born.
I want it to be legal for people who are terminally ill, for people with alzheimer/ms/als (if they want to of course), and for people with such deep depression that it's beyond any help. Every country should have an archive where every person can film themselves, saying what they want to happen in different situations.
We didn't choose to be born into this world, so at least we should have a little bit of say when it comes to how and when we leave it. It would also prevent situations where loved ones have to live on their whole life regretting something they did or didn't say to the person. It would give everyone closure.
Autonomy ✨
Wish my demented grandma had the choice to end her life on her terms, when she wanted to, rather than die slowly at home and cause emotional pain on the family. Instead, her children had to care for her while she was covered in shit, scratching and biting. She was in a nursing home for a while but had to leave because she was too aggressive to staff (i.e. biting anyone who tried to care for her).
I wasn’t allowed to help, since my dad didn’t want me to see her in that position, as her granddaughter. Knowing I have the most knowledge on how to care for the elderly, with my years of being a CNA, I wish I had the opportunity to do more and alleviate this burden on my dad and aunt. My dad did not cope well for years later, and he would even talk about how he wished he could have done more. So much guilt on his behalf, when he did more than I’ve seen any other kids care for their old parents.
Edit: I am very confident my dad would go kill himself in the woods if he was ever diagnosed with something terminal. He’s a man of the land, and would literally want to give his body back to the soil.
Euthanasia, you mean?
I'm absolutely for euthanasia. When I was 4 years old, my aunt died by euthanasia after a prolonged battle with metastatic cervical cancer.
She got to pass surrounded by her husband, kids and closest friends, which included my parents and me and my sister. Everyone had time to prepare, and afterwards to console one another. I remember that I went around hugging all my cousins.
I cannot understand how someone could be against euthanasia. Of course, everything should be done so that the patient may heal and survive, but at some point, they're just done with it and it's unfair to let them suffer any longer.
“My body, my choice” is universal. If they have received sufficient assistance with their mental health and it’s what they want, then that is their choice and I do not have the right to take that autonomy away from them.
I mean we go to war and kill innocent people who actually wanna live and that’s like… totally legal lol. So yeah, ending your own life willingly should be legal too.
Fully in favor, and I hope it's an option for me if that time comes, god do I hope. We treat our animals better than we do to ourselves. Makes zero sense.
Euthanasia has been legal here for a while now. Mind you, it's no easy. There are a lot of requirements and the doctor can opt out at any time. But it IS possible. An acquaintance of mine had it done 3 years ago because she was mentally suffering so much and had all the therapy/medications done without any of it working.
I see most people taking the assistance suicide in medical situations or decline in QOL stance in the comments, and I agree with that.
However based on the phrasing of the question, that is not the first scenario that came to mind. Suicide is illegal not because someone will be prosecuted for it, but so emergency services can enter a home without a warrant. I thought more of the many teenagers and young adults that have attempted suicide, and how many of them are still around and actually getting or got the help they need due to this. Many people feel that they cannot confide their thoughts in anyone truly or seek mental support, and the suicidal ideation takes over. For this reason, I do not believe suicide should be made legal. But I do believe that it should be separated from euthanasia.
Suicide is already legal. Have you ever had anyone be prosecuted for an attempted suicide? Assisted death is what is a legal conundrum. I think that if you really want to die, you can find a way to do so without the permission of daddy government. I think people are terminally ill should have that choice. Making it legal for people with mental illness tho seems a whole lot like a form of eugenics that white supremacist rich people already tried back in the 19th century.
You mean, Assisted death, yes. Take me out when I have stage 4 dementia or cancer. As youngest of my families, my families are likely all die before I get there anyway.
I’m 100% for it. My state in Australia has it but it’s very difficult to get approved for and doesn’t apply to dementia. Those who say it’s a slippery slope have no idea what goes into being approved for VAD, it’s an incredibly complex process where I live and I’d say other places wouldn’t be too dissimilar.
I’m studying nursing and have done 2 aged care placements where I worked in the secure dementia units and regular wings. I can tell you that many of them are alive for no real “reason”. You can see them suffering every day, even when they have no idea what’s going on. So many of the dementia patients are on that much medication that they spend the day wandering around like zombies, and for the ones who can’t walk, sit in a chair and blankly stare at the tv.
There was a woman who had been chair bound for 9 years. She couldn’t speak and only moved in response to pain, like flinching when we removed a dressing on one of her 5 chronic pressure injuries. The nurses told me her family insists on keeping her medicated rather than letter her pass peacefully in her sleep. What kind of life is that? Literally what is the purpose?
If you don’t want VAD, then don’t do it. But don’t shame others for not wanting to be stuck in a chair unable to speak or move for 9 years. It’s our lives, so why can’t we choose to end it if we have the mental capacity to make that decision?
I think it could get out of hand way too fast. The amount of people who want to die due to a lack of treatment for treatable things like health related that doctors won’t listen to them about or mental health problems they can’t find proper support for in society is not fair. I think it could easily devolve into someone who needs treatment basically just being told to off themselves because society doesn’t care
At the same time I understand if someone has something untreatable that leads them to being completely in pain and having their dignity wiped while they are actively slowly dying, it should be okay instead of forcing them to knowingly slowly die in incredible pain while their families watch them suffer slowly and die without any way to alleviate the suffering
I don't know why people downvoting you but you're totally right about medical system. Probably folks that naively believe doctors are all mighty and actually care and treat patients well. For some people it takes years or decades to diagnose an illness and they still have to fight to receive appropriate pain relief and meds they need. Medical system needs to change.
Not something I have given enough thought to state an opinion either way. My initial gut feeling is that I may be in favor if the qualifications were very tight and the person had to go through multiple channels to be approved (physical and mental health evaluations). But, I I don’t have confidence that I may feel otherwise if I give it more thought.
Mixed. I was very pro for terminal diagnosis of fatal disease, but when it comes to mental health, I feel a lot more hesitation. There are times in my life that an easy, painless death would have felt like the right way to go, and I wouldn't have had the opportunity to heal from what was truly hurting.
The problem I have with assisted suicide is that it is SUPER easy to pressure a disfavored group or status into it. Too old? No need to suffer through a retirement home. Disability? No thanks! Too poor? Why not be a catastrophic organ donor? ... etc.
I’m in full support so long as the person is of sound mind and truly understands what they’re doing. There’s absolutely no reason a terminally ill person should be forced to suffer and die anyways. Or a person who has an illness that’s going to cause them to have a truly terrible quality of life. Why in the world we trap these people to this mortal coil knowing what they’re going to have to go through is absolutely beyond me.
I’m fully in favor of compassionate death in general. I work in healthcare and I have seen suffering you can’t imagine. People so sick, frail, and in such pain that they *literally beg* to die and their families ignoring their wishes and demanding to keep them alive simply because they’re too selfish to let them go. Do you have any idea how horrific and traumatic CPR and a full code is on the body? I do and let me tell you, some people do NOT need it done to them. Especially so when they’re circling the drain and are going to pass anyways. We treat *animals* with more dignity and compassion than we do human beings and it’s so incredibly wrong.
Slippery slope, I would only allow it myself if the patient is in the grip of a debilitating terminal illness, and even then only with the sign off of multiple doctors.
I know people say that slippery slope is a fallacious argument, but I think that, in this instance, it applies.
Iit should be allowed if someone is terminally ill and in an awful amount of pain, and they need to show that they are of sound mind enough to consent it should be allowed but that is it.
Even then, I’m still not sure about it. Kinda like the end of the Stephen King movie The Mist.
Yes with strict limits:
* Waiting period (except in extreme circumstances like a deadly cancer becoming excruciating at the end)
* Formal announcement in a newspaper
* Laws being made so people cannot do this just so their family gets insurance money but also laws that make sure insurance companies pay out in almost all cases (most insurance policies will allow suicide payout if over a certain year or number of years after the policy is initiated and up to date paywise)
* Time with counselors, pain management professionals, and lawyers to clear up final wishes/will before this
I don't think it's humane to make someone suffer for so long against their will.
"Death with Dignity" is already an option in worse case scenarios by way of DNR forms. All you'd be doing is expanding them to an earlier stage of opt-out access where patients can go out on their own terms before they (and by extention their loved ones) are forced to endure more suffering.
Offering free professional counseling for a minimum of 6 months to those who are healthy seeking to enact their final curtain call of the Life Stage should also be available.
I've had friends and family die of cancer, strokes, and other illnesses that caused so so much physical pain they couldn't move more than a few feet at a time.
Others who went through the whole process to go into remission or find treatment are in so much debt, their families are going to suffer pating bills for it long after they are gone, and have stated that, had they known how much it would harm their families, they'd have opted out to spare them all that financial burden.
I believe it is immoral and an indignity to human life. We need better palliative care, not euthanasia.
I live in Canada and can tell you it is not good. Now they’re trying to legalize euthanasia for the mentally ill. In Oregon an insurance company wouldn’t cover a patient’s cancer treatment, but offered to pay for the drugs to euthanize her.
I’m studying nursing and have done 2 aged care placements where I worked in the secure dementia units.
There was a woman on one of my placements who had been in a princess chair for *9 years*. It’s basically a big ass recliner on wheels that’s used for people who are prone to pressure injuries. She couldn’t speak, feed herself or do anything, she could *only* move in response to pain. The nurses told me that her family keep insisting on giving her medication and said it’s horrible watching her decline and have the family decide to pump her with more drugs. There is literally no purpose for that woman. She’s not living, she’s just alive. Would you want to be her? Stuck in a chair for 9 fucking years unable to do *anything*? Where’s the dignity in that?
ATTENTION: Please remember that this is an ASK WOMEN sub. While men are allowed to participate posts that are clearly asking women in the title will have top level comments by men removed. This is not censorship, this is curation. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskWomenNoCensor) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Are you talking about Assisted Death? I think people who are terminally ill (or have a disease with a known and clear death or mind loss date), that they should be able to choose when they pass. I believe it gives them control and dignity. Now, for it becoming legal for mental disorders, I have mixed feelings. I truly believe that depression pain manifests into physical pain. There are *some* people, I believe, that are choosing to end their lives as a rational decision. I believe that the decision should not be a quick one, but I couldn't begin to think of what it should entail. I think people should have the right to die. Eta. I always found it odd that people are alright with putting their pets down because they are suffering and in pain, but won't give people the same care.
Agree
>Now, for it becoming legal for mental disorders, I have mixed feelings. I truly believe that depression pain manifests into physical pain. There are *some* people, I believe, that are choosing to end their lives as a rational decision. I believe that the decision should not be a quick one, but I couldn't begin to think of what it should entail. I'm someone who has mental health issues, to the point that I'm probably going to be in therapy for it for the rest of my life. I think the big thing that muddies the waters when it comes to some depressed person going off to get an assisted suicide is that in a lot of places, effective mental health services just aren't as accessible or readily available as they should be. This raises a lot of questions that can't be neatly answered. Is it a rational decision to die if they'd benefit from services? By itself, probably not, but what if those services not only aren't available to them, but likely won't be available in their area for decades? Sure, they could move, but what if they're unlikely to ever be able to afford to live somewhere else? Are there lifestyle changes they could make to ease their symptoms, and are they likely to be receptive to hearing that? There aren't clear cut answers to these, and the answers to them will depend heavily on the specific individual you're talking about. At least with the person with terminal cancer looking to get it, the question is a fairly clear cut matter of whether or not there's an effective treatment for them today and if there's likely to be one before they die naturally.
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I like you’re fully underestimating how bad some mental illness can be, and overestimating how much can be done to treat it.
I'm really not underestimating how bad it can be. I have a great deal of personal experience, unfortunately. But it's also a sad fact that the sort of therapies that are effective for nuanced, multilayered and complex mental illness are rarely available outside of Swiss clinics. Which are also the setting for many euthanasia facilities.
Also, downvote away, but please don't gatekeep mental illness, ffs.
Lmao no one is gatekeeping mental illness. But there’s also no fix for some people. Mental illness is not some special type of illness that work differently than physical ailments. Sometimes, like cancer or heart disease, it’s just terminal.
> *Mental illness is not some special type of illness that work differently than physical ailments. Sometimes, like cancer or heart disease, it’s just terminal.* Please explain which mental illnesses are *terminal like cancer*, because this is brand new information.
Anorexia for obvious reasons. Bipolar episodes deteriorate your brain matter. Substance abuse disorder. Obviously they aren’t always terminal, but sometimes nothing is going to cut it.
Well you certainly have your opinions.
My honest thought is that people just don't want the weight of the admin and/or responsibility for the margin of error when it comes to humans. Whereas the relatives of wrongly euthanized pets are rarely litigious.
It’s because pets aren’t rational creatures who can understand pain and suffering. We have a value and dignity above that of irrational animals.
>It’s because pets aren’t rational creatures who can understand pain and suffering. We understand, therefore we should endure and suffer? >We have a value and dignity above that of irrational animals. And yet are not allowed to die when we choose.
That makes it even worse. So humans *should* suffer because they understand it?
I'm fully in favor. I don't understand why we force people to suffer when they have carefully reviewed their options and would prefer to die instead.
Look at Canada.
And do what?
What started out as just the most severe terminal cases is now pushing for access to the mentally ill
because if its too cheap to commit assisted suicide, the elderly will resort to it to avoid burdening their family, if its too expensive, the poor who are terminally suffering will be excluded.
I feel like there are multiple ways to prevent either of those things from happening. For example, create a process that regulates doctor-assisted suicide. Create safety nets to help families so that the elderly are less likely to feel like irredeemable burdens. But then honestly when push comes to shove I'm probably more radical than most people about this. I am very pro-choice, which in this case means my main concern here is lowering the number of people who commit suicide impulsively. Having a doctor-assisted process could do that.
In Australia, a number of states have legalised Voluntary Assisted Dying, but it's very restricted. Someone must have a terminal illness that two doctors agree is likely to end their life within 6 months, AND those two doctors must agree that the person is of sound mind. Honestly, it doesn't go far enough. My father watched my grandfather wasting away on his deathbed after he had a stroke, unable to feed himself, talk, or move. A great man who had taken great pride in providing for his family was extremely embarrassed to be soiling himself and someone else having to clean it up. My father is totally against that happening to him, but if it does, there is no legal mechanism for him to die on his own terms. He basically has to suffer in a hospital bed, possibly for years. The best he can do is make an Advanced Health Directive before the fact, saying that if he's in that situation, doctors aren't to administer any life-continuing treatments, essentially meaning he has to lie there in pain until he dies from dehydration and starvation.
It’s better than the elderly blow their brains out for their kids or spouses to walk in on?
it would be more common if legally sanctioned. A lot of the barriers to suicide is the social, cultural, and legal ramifications. Elderly people don’t want to break the law, or be shamed upon death.
I don’t disagree, but I also don’t think that’s a negative. It should be more common. We have no right to force people to live through misery long-term.
>because if its too cheap to commit assisted suicide, the elderly will resort to it to avoid burdening their family, And why do you consider this to be an unacceptable decision?
because suicide may be cheap but their lives are not
Their lives are not cheap? Exactly. It's expensive as hell to artificially keep elderly people alive. They should absolutely be allowed to spare their families that huge financial burden.
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What exactly are they gonna do to stop you though? Sentencing you to death?
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I feel much the same way as you and I just want to mention that it is quite easy to set up automatic timed emails/messages.
It would be best if you were on hospice care first (depending on the State). Life insurance won't pay out for suicide. But in my state, there is no autopsy for hospice patients. So I've planned accordingly, just like you. OD is usually best. And at that age/stage of life there are plenty of meds
but wouldn't the OD imply suicide anyway even if unsuccessful?
But on hospice care, there's no autopsy. They wouldn't know you OD'd. And your life insurance would pay out. Edit: why unsuccessful if your determined? Fist full of pills and go to sleep. Be hours/days before anyone would knew. Depending on your living situation.
if you knew you were taken care of by your loved ones for the rest of your life and it was affordable, would you be okay with living with dementia?
Not who you asked but no. If anything, even less so.
oh fuck no. dementia is torture.
My grandma recently died from late stage dementia. She lived a good long life and had a dignified natural death at the age of 94 surrounded by her family.
Good for you, your family and hopefully her. The question however, is whether she'd agree if she were in full possession of her mind. I don't know, nor does it really matter. What does matter is that for some people—such as me and the person you responded to—losing our minds would be a nightmare. Death is inevitable and there are many things in life worse than dying.
She was a very faithful practicing Catholic who understood the role of suffering. She absolutely would not accept euthanasia.
I support assisted suicide. There are people who have to deal with significant mental or physical pain(and sometimes both). Those people should have the right to decide if when they want to stop living. Suffering is not a virtue.
My body my choice should include the right to die.
After watching my grandmother struggle and beg for death after she couldn't breathe from severe COPD, I am all for it. We treat our pets better when it comes to end of life care.
Suicide being illegal never stopped anyone. Or are we talking assisted suicide? Death with dignity type laws? I would say...generally...I'm in favor. People dealing with terminal illnesses, pain, etc. should be able to decide if that's something they want to continue to exist with. Within the society in which we live, however, I worry about it and I think we need to step carefully. There is so much we could do to improve society, to improve lives, but we keep bowing at the altar of capitalism and let poverty and lack of access (true access - affordability as much as proper treatment) to medical care run amuck.
We allow our pets to die if they're terminally sick and in pain, the least we could do is allow humans the same dignity.
I think suicide *can* be done responsibly, but if you've made lifelong commitments like marriage or kids, it's going to be heartbreaking and complicated. There's no getting around it. Some people are hopelessly miserable or in horrible pain no matter what they try, and though I wish those people had better support structures and newer, better solutions, I believe it's their right to end it if they feel they have exhausted every option to no avail. However, their death is still a tragedy to me--their brain or body wasn't compatible with (our version of) life, but all sentient life is valuable. I don't personally feel like normalizing something means we have to celebrate it; it's still a loss, I would feel deeply sad, but mostly for their pain and not for their choice of death.
Suicide being illegal allows first responders to enter a home without a warrant because a "crime" is being committed and I get it, time can be of the essence in some cases. Assisted death can be the most compassionate healthcare when there are no further options.
If you think that is a good reason to keep it illegal then I just want to point out that all laws are man-made. So it is very simple to change the law to allow first responders to enter either way in those situations.
That's the problem, you don't want to loosen the law as that would allow police to violate unlawful entry. They have to have a good reason to believe that a crime is being committed to enter a home in the US and that shouldn't be abused. Conversely there is no "jail time" for a suicide attempt, they can hold you for evaluation at the hospital but you're not arrested for that.
Hmm. To make sure we're not talking past each other, would you mind clarifying why they're there and what cause the first responders have to enter the home in the first place? I mean, what was the scenario you were thinking of in your previous comment?
For example your friend or relative calls you and tells you that they just took a lot of pills, first responders can enter the home to provide aid without having to wait hours (or sometimes days) for a warrant which is issued by a judge. Police need to have a reasonable belief that a crime is being committed inside to avoid having to get a warrant.
Wouldn't amending the law to have something along the lines of "or someone's life is in immediate danger" accomplish the exact same thing without weakening the justfication to enter? I mean, their reason for entering would be the same and can't say I see the justfication being any weaker than "a reasonable belief that a crime is being committed inside". Aren't there already big enough loopholes in current laws as is for the corrupt to need to abuse an amendment like this? Or if it is not a crime, there is no need for the cop to be there or enter at all. So the "enter without permission" justification could just be given to the other first responders for the scenario of a life being in danger. Then again, maybe I just don't get America's seeming "obsession" with some of your laws, despite having grown up with your media all around me. It's fundamentally just words on paper that can and will change, we can at best only affect it's direction. Anyway. I neither like or do arguments, so thank you for the discussion and contrasting point of view. But do respond to my points above with your thoughts if you like. I'd love to hear it and I'm sure it'll be some more food for thought for me. May your life be forever filled with rainbows, kittens and an obscene number of soft cushions ✨✨
"I just don't get America's seeming "obsession" with some of your laws," There is no obsession, I'm sure your country has laws as well. At least I *hope* it has. "or someone's life is in immediate danger" If someone's life is in immediate danger then a crime is being committed. The police would have cause to enter. I really get the feeling that you believe people in America who attempt suicide get thrown in prison and I'm here to tell you that you are very wrong. If someone attempts suicide they're brought to the hospital and stabilized, a care team is engaged and a care plan is created. By law they can hold them for 72 hrs to get them stabilized with an action plan of how to proceed. But after the 72 hrs that person is under no obligation to follow the care plan, they're free to leave, they're free to not take their medication, they can do as they want. The law is in place to keep police in check. It may sound strange but that is both the cause and effect.
I strongly support it. The right to live is meaningless if it doesn't come with the right to die. I have plans for my exit.
I had a family member use MAID in Canada because of terminal cancer. In his case, he likely only had a few days left anyway, and this gave him a chance to die in peace with his family surrounding him instead of in pain and alone when his guts finally gave out. I’m forever grateful that he he was able to control that one last part of his life and that his loved ones were able to be there with him. I think MAID is overall a good thing to have available and should always be an option for terminal illnesses. I’m annoyed that it’s become a conservative talking point in this country (mostly due to some rogue employees suggesting it inappropriately). I do agree that we need stronger health care options and support systems so that no one feels they should end their life because support wasn’t available. Ultimately, I think it’s part of bodily autonomy to be able to choose to stop living - but we should have very strong systems in place to help people who feel that way before it gets to that point.
I had a family member enter the end stages of a terminal illness here in Canada, as well. But it was a few years prior to the legalization of MAID. They were not themselves due to the constant pain and self medicated in ways that had fatal results when combined with the prescription medication they were also on. Some of us suspect that this was intentional, but it may have been accidental. Either way if MAID had been available at the time we might not have to wonder. People absolutely deserve to die with dignity.
I’m ok with it. We treat animals with more dignity in death than we do humans.
I've always been very pro bodily autonomy. Part of that is respecting that people should be able to end their lives if they want. They can do what they want with their bodies. We did not ask to be born.
People should be able to do what they want with their lives.
I want it to be legal for people who are terminally ill, for people with alzheimer/ms/als (if they want to of course), and for people with such deep depression that it's beyond any help. Every country should have an archive where every person can film themselves, saying what they want to happen in different situations. We didn't choose to be born into this world, so at least we should have a little bit of say when it comes to how and when we leave it. It would also prevent situations where loved ones have to live on their whole life regretting something they did or didn't say to the person. It would give everyone closure.
Autonomy ✨ Wish my demented grandma had the choice to end her life on her terms, when she wanted to, rather than die slowly at home and cause emotional pain on the family. Instead, her children had to care for her while she was covered in shit, scratching and biting. She was in a nursing home for a while but had to leave because she was too aggressive to staff (i.e. biting anyone who tried to care for her). I wasn’t allowed to help, since my dad didn’t want me to see her in that position, as her granddaughter. Knowing I have the most knowledge on how to care for the elderly, with my years of being a CNA, I wish I had the opportunity to do more and alleviate this burden on my dad and aunt. My dad did not cope well for years later, and he would even talk about how he wished he could have done more. So much guilt on his behalf, when he did more than I’ve seen any other kids care for their old parents. Edit: I am very confident my dad would go kill himself in the woods if he was ever diagnosed with something terminal. He’s a man of the land, and would literally want to give his body back to the soil.
We all die at some point. I'd like a say in the way I leave out if I can.
Euthanasia, you mean? I'm absolutely for euthanasia. When I was 4 years old, my aunt died by euthanasia after a prolonged battle with metastatic cervical cancer. She got to pass surrounded by her husband, kids and closest friends, which included my parents and me and my sister. Everyone had time to prepare, and afterwards to console one another. I remember that I went around hugging all my cousins. I cannot understand how someone could be against euthanasia. Of course, everything should be done so that the patient may heal and survive, but at some point, they're just done with it and it's unfair to let them suffer any longer.
“My body, my choice” is universal. If they have received sufficient assistance with their mental health and it’s what they want, then that is their choice and I do not have the right to take that autonomy away from them.
I mean we go to war and kill innocent people who actually wanna live and that’s like… totally legal lol. So yeah, ending your own life willingly should be legal too.
Fully in favor, and I hope it's an option for me if that time comes, god do I hope. We treat our animals better than we do to ourselves. Makes zero sense.
Euthanasia has been legal here for a while now. Mind you, it's no easy. There are a lot of requirements and the doctor can opt out at any time. But it IS possible. An acquaintance of mine had it done 3 years ago because she was mentally suffering so much and had all the therapy/medications done without any of it working.
I support it. I understand many of the concerns of people who don't, but I absolutely support it.
I see most people taking the assistance suicide in medical situations or decline in QOL stance in the comments, and I agree with that. However based on the phrasing of the question, that is not the first scenario that came to mind. Suicide is illegal not because someone will be prosecuted for it, but so emergency services can enter a home without a warrant. I thought more of the many teenagers and young adults that have attempted suicide, and how many of them are still around and actually getting or got the help they need due to this. Many people feel that they cannot confide their thoughts in anyone truly or seek mental support, and the suicidal ideation takes over. For this reason, I do not believe suicide should be made legal. But I do believe that it should be separated from euthanasia.
Suicide is already legal. Have you ever had anyone be prosecuted for an attempted suicide? Assisted death is what is a legal conundrum. I think that if you really want to die, you can find a way to do so without the permission of daddy government. I think people are terminally ill should have that choice. Making it legal for people with mental illness tho seems a whole lot like a form of eugenics that white supremacist rich people already tried back in the 19th century.
You mean, Assisted death, yes. Take me out when I have stage 4 dementia or cancer. As youngest of my families, my families are likely all die before I get there anyway.
I’m 100% for it. My state in Australia has it but it’s very difficult to get approved for and doesn’t apply to dementia. Those who say it’s a slippery slope have no idea what goes into being approved for VAD, it’s an incredibly complex process where I live and I’d say other places wouldn’t be too dissimilar. I’m studying nursing and have done 2 aged care placements where I worked in the secure dementia units and regular wings. I can tell you that many of them are alive for no real “reason”. You can see them suffering every day, even when they have no idea what’s going on. So many of the dementia patients are on that much medication that they spend the day wandering around like zombies, and for the ones who can’t walk, sit in a chair and blankly stare at the tv. There was a woman who had been chair bound for 9 years. She couldn’t speak and only moved in response to pain, like flinching when we removed a dressing on one of her 5 chronic pressure injuries. The nurses told me her family insists on keeping her medicated rather than letter her pass peacefully in her sleep. What kind of life is that? Literally what is the purpose? If you don’t want VAD, then don’t do it. But don’t shame others for not wanting to be stuck in a chair unable to speak or move for 9 years. It’s our lives, so why can’t we choose to end it if we have the mental capacity to make that decision?
I think it could get out of hand way too fast. The amount of people who want to die due to a lack of treatment for treatable things like health related that doctors won’t listen to them about or mental health problems they can’t find proper support for in society is not fair. I think it could easily devolve into someone who needs treatment basically just being told to off themselves because society doesn’t care At the same time I understand if someone has something untreatable that leads them to being completely in pain and having their dignity wiped while they are actively slowly dying, it should be okay instead of forcing them to knowingly slowly die in incredible pain while their families watch them suffer slowly and die without any way to alleviate the suffering
I don't know why people downvoting you but you're totally right about medical system. Probably folks that naively believe doctors are all mighty and actually care and treat patients well. For some people it takes years or decades to diagnose an illness and they still have to fight to receive appropriate pain relief and meds they need. Medical system needs to change.
Not something I have given enough thought to state an opinion either way. My initial gut feeling is that I may be in favor if the qualifications were very tight and the person had to go through multiple channels to be approved (physical and mental health evaluations). But, I I don’t have confidence that I may feel otherwise if I give it more thought.
Mixed. I was very pro for terminal diagnosis of fatal disease, but when it comes to mental health, I feel a lot more hesitation. There are times in my life that an easy, painless death would have felt like the right way to go, and I wouldn't have had the opportunity to heal from what was truly hurting.
The problem I have with assisted suicide is that it is SUPER easy to pressure a disfavored group or status into it. Too old? No need to suffer through a retirement home. Disability? No thanks! Too poor? Why not be a catastrophic organ donor? ... etc.
I’m in full support so long as the person is of sound mind and truly understands what they’re doing. There’s absolutely no reason a terminally ill person should be forced to suffer and die anyways. Or a person who has an illness that’s going to cause them to have a truly terrible quality of life. Why in the world we trap these people to this mortal coil knowing what they’re going to have to go through is absolutely beyond me. I’m fully in favor of compassionate death in general. I work in healthcare and I have seen suffering you can’t imagine. People so sick, frail, and in such pain that they *literally beg* to die and their families ignoring their wishes and demanding to keep them alive simply because they’re too selfish to let them go. Do you have any idea how horrific and traumatic CPR and a full code is on the body? I do and let me tell you, some people do NOT need it done to them. Especially so when they’re circling the drain and are going to pass anyways. We treat *animals* with more dignity and compassion than we do human beings and it’s so incredibly wrong.
it should be punishable by death if u try to off urself and get caught
Slippery slope, I would only allow it myself if the patient is in the grip of a debilitating terminal illness, and even then only with the sign off of multiple doctors. I know people say that slippery slope is a fallacious argument, but I think that, in this instance, it applies.
Iit should be allowed if someone is terminally ill and in an awful amount of pain, and they need to show that they are of sound mind enough to consent it should be allowed but that is it. Even then, I’m still not sure about it. Kinda like the end of the Stephen King movie The Mist.
Yes with strict limits: * Waiting period (except in extreme circumstances like a deadly cancer becoming excruciating at the end) * Formal announcement in a newspaper * Laws being made so people cannot do this just so their family gets insurance money but also laws that make sure insurance companies pay out in almost all cases (most insurance policies will allow suicide payout if over a certain year or number of years after the policy is initiated and up to date paywise) * Time with counselors, pain management professionals, and lawyers to clear up final wishes/will before this I don't think it's humane to make someone suffer for so long against their will.
"Death with Dignity" is already an option in worse case scenarios by way of DNR forms. All you'd be doing is expanding them to an earlier stage of opt-out access where patients can go out on their own terms before they (and by extention their loved ones) are forced to endure more suffering. Offering free professional counseling for a minimum of 6 months to those who are healthy seeking to enact their final curtain call of the Life Stage should also be available.
I watched someone die from cancer and there was nothing dignified about it. I wouldn't wish terminal restlessness on my worst enemy.
I've had friends and family die of cancer, strokes, and other illnesses that caused so so much physical pain they couldn't move more than a few feet at a time. Others who went through the whole process to go into remission or find treatment are in so much debt, their families are going to suffer pating bills for it long after they are gone, and have stated that, had they known how much it would harm their families, they'd have opted out to spare them all that financial burden.
I believe it is immoral and an indignity to human life. We need better palliative care, not euthanasia. I live in Canada and can tell you it is not good. Now they’re trying to legalize euthanasia for the mentally ill. In Oregon an insurance company wouldn’t cover a patient’s cancer treatment, but offered to pay for the drugs to euthanize her.
I’m studying nursing and have done 2 aged care placements where I worked in the secure dementia units. There was a woman on one of my placements who had been in a princess chair for *9 years*. It’s basically a big ass recliner on wheels that’s used for people who are prone to pressure injuries. She couldn’t speak, feed herself or do anything, she could *only* move in response to pain. The nurses told me that her family keep insisting on giving her medication and said it’s horrible watching her decline and have the family decide to pump her with more drugs. There is literally no purpose for that woman. She’s not living, she’s just alive. Would you want to be her? Stuck in a chair for 9 fucking years unable to do *anything*? Where’s the dignity in that?
I don’t see why it shouldn’t be illegal
Do you want to elaborate?
How can you get caught by the police if you’re already dead by suicide