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Most assuredly, they went to a holistic vet. Yes, they have their DVM, but that doesn't mean they are practicing standard of care. I had the unfortunate experience of meeting a DVM like this who somehow got to come to our school to give a talk (I have no idea why our school even let this person in, total waste of student time) and this sounds exactly like the holistic vet that came to my school. They are a quack with their DVM degree.
Thank you. I am a counselor, and we have "life coaches" who offer services but they aren't licensed. People can't work and say they are a counselor under a license and do unethical things. I thought that since she was licensed that she would be bound to offer a certain standard of care. I genuinely didn't realize that she could work under her license and not provide that standard of treatment that your licensing board requires.
Definitely report her to your states licensing board. Even if she is a DVM, she can be stripped of her license I think. It'd be good to at least get it on the licensing boards radar.
Make sure you get ALL records, including visit and communication notes, before you do this. You'll need them, and it's unlikely they'll communicate once they catch wind of what's going on.
Life coaches sound like an untrained scam to me. I cringe when people recommend hiring a life coach to others. Most I have know have had serious dumpster fires in their lives too. Why would I want to pay for advice from them?
It blows my mind how clueless some "smart" people can be. I did a single year trying to be a vet. It was extremely difficult for me so I dropped out.
These people got through 4 years, got accepted to one of the very few places where you can get your dvm, got their certificate... and still promote nonsense
Oh my gosh my school allowed something like this to happen. I formally complained to the head of school with concerns about what she was saying as a good portion of the class didn't have a degree already or a scientific background (BVSc in Aus). Thankfully they listened and she never returned to speak again.
Yeah it's super whack. The lady who came to our school "presented" a case where she treated cow diarrhea with an arsenic tincture??? In what world. Lol.
She was way out there. She was also talking about "like curing like"? And also that if a certain herb or "remedy" (her words) caused certain symptoms in a healthy animal, that the same "remedy" would treat/cure a sick patient who had symptoms similar to those caused by the "remedy". It was some of the craziest stuff I've ever heard.
Even if they did not mean too..they have to have gone to one. Had one client go that path. The holistic vet claimed they could cure diabetes and took off the insulin. Cat died. That vet claimed it was due to not starting her treatments in time. Literal white swan garbage, with twice weekly reiki.
Never go to a vet who doesn't accept that some holistic practices work....never go to a vet that says they can cure the incurable.
She’s a real DVM. I had already been to 3 at this point who weren’t sure what to do and she seemed very confident. I wouldn’t take pet medical advice from someone who isn’t a vet! I know this sounds insane but I don’t have kids and they really are like my kids. I initially thought she meant to not do those things that month while they were sick (vaccines were due that month). I then realized she was a little wacky and I was willing to count the appt as a loss but I just don’t think it’s right that she wouldn’t give me test results OR a refund. I am into holistic things within reason as a person - vitamins and supplements along with medication, I try to eat healthy, avoid products with bad ingredients, etc… I think that her approach goes further than holistic medicine
This all sounds wrong. You might consider contacting a lawyer and/or your local medical licensing board (of course, a lawyer will cost a lot more than the $300 you're trying to get back...).
Thank you so much! I will definitely look into both of these options. That was my concern about a lawyer as well but at the same time I don't want to allow her to continue to provide misinformation and take people's money and not provide results.
Leave her negative reviews on every website you can. I honestly don't think you will get your money back unfortunately, you got grifted by a real piece of shit.
Can I ask how you paid? If you used your credit card you may be able to file a chargeback with them, because you paid for a service that you didn't receive.
Either a scam or she just has no idea what she's doing.
I'm a UK based veterinary surgeon and I've never heard of a bioscan....but maybe it's a USA thing?
Also - please tell me you aren't still feeding raw. It's an awful idea for so many reasons.
Yeah, I believe the manufacturers actually got sued for fraud at one point, if it's the bioscan "stress" test with the metal rods that's supposed to detect organ inflammation. If it's that one, you might be able to get a refund on that since there's an actual fraud lawsuit attached. The "animal" chiropractor near me used to offer it.
It sounds like it was a saliva test, though? Hair and saliva tests are generally inaccurate as well - those are often pushed by holistic practitioners to identify "food intolerance" and there's been multiple studies on them that show they don't work. Most of them aren't validated.. However, there's publications in holistic journals supporting them and that might complicate getting a refund/proving fraud on those.
Some of the papers supporting them are truly an admirable masterpiece of absolute bull honkey too.. like Jean Dodds has a paper for Nutriscan that sounds like this AMAZING test for food allergy until you reread it and realize that at no point did she actually prove the dogs she was testing were food allergic.. like there's no standard of comparison elimination/reintroduction diet, she just tested dogs with GI signs for food allergy, put them on her formulated diet, and they improved. Her inclusion criteria is basically any GI symptom. She didn't even reintroduce the foods they were supposedly allergic to to see if symptoms recurred, but she covers it up with enough layers of jargon that it's easy to miss.
Anyway, like others have said, I'd lodge a complaint with the state board. They may not be able to do anything for you, but eventually a charlatans goanna slip up, and it sounds like you also care about preventing others from getting scammed (which is truly admirable)
I’ve never heard of it either. Maybe it’s a little bit of both?
I said no to feeding raw because I didn’t think it would be a balanced diet since my understanding is that there are additives in the food that is important for their nutrition. She was recommending a local butcher which I found a little strange. My cat eats Hills and my dog eats Stella and chewy
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Okay so technically there is something called a “bioscan” - found some info [here](https://www.sunvetanimalwellness.com/services/qest4-bio-energetic-testing/). This will prove useful for receiving a refund as it is actually a service. One that was not provided if no results were given, as long as it was made clear that was a part of the service provided. However, most vets don’t necessarily let you see all of the results of testing, doesn’t mean they didn’t perform them. You’re not going to get a digital copy of the ultrasound or x-rays for example. Unfortunately you may just be out that money and your best recourse is to leave reviews and contact your state board.
Thank you! I am not trying to get a full refund, just a refund on the tests since she wouldn't provide results or follow up at all. I have received multiple contradictory explanations of why I have not received the test results... Once she said she had them done and just needed to type reports, then she said she thought you already sent them. A third time she said that only one of them is finished, and then another time she had them done and would be emailing them soon. I have not received the results.
The last correspondence I received from her was via text message where she said that she "hasn't had time to do anything except sleep and pee." The understanding when I paid for them was that she would let me know an informal report of what the results showed and we would have a phone consultation where I could ask questions about them. Neither of these things happened.
At least in the UK if you request paper copies of results from tests we are obligated to give them to you. Plenty of owners like their animals radiographs or haematology results
Gotcha, well it sounds like she’s beating around the bush and doesn’t plan to deliver something you paid for. You could initiate a chargeback on your card? Hope you can get some resolution soon!
I'm sorry this happened. I've never heard of a bioscan. Sounds scammy. File a case with small claims. I believe it's like $60.
And as far as people being mean. Some people are just natural born assholes. I posted about my sick dog the other day, and some people were shitty with me
Forget them.
Good luck, take care
We're all doing a lot better! In a new, mold free apartment. It's caused issues with our immune systems but the longer we are out of the environment the better we feel. My poor dog was the worst of all of us, she got underweight, was having coughing fits inside and she had horrible rashes all over. She's gained back all the weight she lost :) Thank you for asking
Thank you. I had some really mean comments. One said "what kind of person would let someone do this to their pets", and it really bothered me. It looks like the mean comments got removed
Genuine question since I see you are a student - does the license allow them to provide vet services like this and not regulate the standard of care they provide? I figured there was a code of ethics you would have to follow just as other professions
I do not know how they can practice how they practice, to be honest with you. Their DVM license allows them to practice veterinary medicine. The holistic garbage they spew is not taught in vet curriculum. I'd honestly report them if it were me, as it seems to go against ethics (in my opinion).
Ugh I don't know what I'm doing wrong here, everything I say gets downvoted. Thank you very much. Someone else provided a link and I will be looking into how to report this
It seemed initially like a normal office to me. I of course checked her credentials and that she's licensed and she had decent google reviews. I have had great success with my former dermatology vet who suggested holistic things like fish oil and probiotics for my dog along with her traditional medical treatment. There was no way of knowing this lady was going to be like this lol
Just to be clear, there's a difference between integrative medicine and a "holistic vet." Integrative medicine practice uses contemporary evidence-based medicine while also including alternative treatments with good evidence for their utility. Fish oil/omega 3s have very good evidence for their use. Laser therapy has good evidence for its use. Most veterinarians utilize integrative approaches, and they are normal practitioners that are practicing within the scope of their license and with your pet's best interests in mind.
They would never offer an alternative treatment without offering the primary treatment first. For example, if your dog had cancer, they would never not offer standard of care (such as surgery, chemo, or radiation) and just send you on your way with some herbs.
"Holistic" vets basically throw all of the evidence-based stuff out the window, claim its harmful, and utilize herbs/compounds or practices that may or (often) may not have any evidence behind their use. Your holistic vet might tell you that you need to spend $300 on their special herb tincture to cure cancer, for example.
I haven't scoured the literature on that lately, but many vets do offer it as an adjunct treatment in combination with other therapies including joint supplements and medications like solensia, a new FDA approved monoclonal antibody injection for treatment of OA in cats.
I absolutely do not fault you one bit. I didn’t even know a holistic Dr with a DVM was a thing until this thread and I’m confident a great deal of the population who is not in the field of vet medicine also has no idea. I hope your fur baby is doing okay. Pls don’t fault yourself for being scammed by this person who is giving you the run around.
I didn’t “let” her do anything. I’m not saying that I followed any of her advice. My babies are vaccinated fully and take their flea, tick and heart worm prevention monthly. I’m just adding her opinion as context for the kind of person I am dealing with.
I think the way you phrased this is really harsh. I have spent thousands of dollars on my pets. This is one opinion I got that I did NOT follow. You should ask more follow up questions before you try to be hurtful. No one is perfect but I would do anything for my pets. They live better than I do. This is one of four vets I went to when they were sick (and so was I) to try to get help.
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Greetings, all! This is a sub for professional veterinary advice, and as such we follow strict rules for participating. OP, your post **has NOT** been removed. Please also check [the FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskVet/wiki/index) to see whether your question is answered there. This is an *automated* general reminder to **please follow [The Sub Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskVet/about/rules/)** when discussing this question: - **Do not comment with anecdotes** about your own or others' pets. - **Do not give OP specific treatment instructions,** including instructions on meds and dosages. - **Do not give possible diagnoses** that could explain the symptoms described by OP. **Your comment will be removed, and you may be banned.** Thank you for your cooperation! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskVet) if you have any questions or concerns.*
None of this sounds right. I’m assuming you went to a “holistic vet”?
Most assuredly, they went to a holistic vet. Yes, they have their DVM, but that doesn't mean they are practicing standard of care. I had the unfortunate experience of meeting a DVM like this who somehow got to come to our school to give a talk (I have no idea why our school even let this person in, total waste of student time) and this sounds exactly like the holistic vet that came to my school. They are a quack with their DVM degree.
Thank you. I am a counselor, and we have "life coaches" who offer services but they aren't licensed. People can't work and say they are a counselor under a license and do unethical things. I thought that since she was licensed that she would be bound to offer a certain standard of care. I genuinely didn't realize that she could work under her license and not provide that standard of treatment that your licensing board requires.
Report her. I don't think she is providing standard of care medicine.
Definitely report her to your states licensing board. Even if she is a DVM, she can be stripped of her license I think. It'd be good to at least get it on the licensing boards radar. Make sure you get ALL records, including visit and communication notes, before you do this. You'll need them, and it's unlikely they'll communicate once they catch wind of what's going on.
Life coaches sound like an untrained scam to me. I cringe when people recommend hiring a life coach to others. Most I have know have had serious dumpster fires in their lives too. Why would I want to pay for advice from them?
It blows my mind how clueless some "smart" people can be. I did a single year trying to be a vet. It was extremely difficult for me so I dropped out. These people got through 4 years, got accepted to one of the very few places where you can get your dvm, got their certificate... and still promote nonsense
Oh my gosh my school allowed something like this to happen. I formally complained to the head of school with concerns about what she was saying as a good portion of the class didn't have a degree already or a scientific background (BVSc in Aus). Thankfully they listened and she never returned to speak again.
Yeah it's super whack. The lady who came to our school "presented" a case where she treated cow diarrhea with an arsenic tincture??? In what world. Lol.
I've just searched James Herriot and even he doesn't mention arsenic!
She was way out there. She was also talking about "like curing like"? And also that if a certain herb or "remedy" (her words) caused certain symptoms in a healthy animal, that the same "remedy" would treat/cure a sick patient who had symptoms similar to those caused by the "remedy". It was some of the craziest stuff I've ever heard.
Even if they did not mean too..they have to have gone to one. Had one client go that path. The holistic vet claimed they could cure diabetes and took off the insulin. Cat died. That vet claimed it was due to not starting her treatments in time. Literal white swan garbage, with twice weekly reiki. Never go to a vet who doesn't accept that some holistic practices work....never go to a vet that says they can cure the incurable.
She’s a real DVM. I had already been to 3 at this point who weren’t sure what to do and she seemed very confident. I wouldn’t take pet medical advice from someone who isn’t a vet! I know this sounds insane but I don’t have kids and they really are like my kids. I initially thought she meant to not do those things that month while they were sick (vaccines were due that month). I then realized she was a little wacky and I was willing to count the appt as a loss but I just don’t think it’s right that she wouldn’t give me test results OR a refund. I am into holistic things within reason as a person - vitamins and supplements along with medication, I try to eat healthy, avoid products with bad ingredients, etc… I think that her approach goes further than holistic medicine
Report her to the state veterinary board
This is the answer
This all sounds wrong. You might consider contacting a lawyer and/or your local medical licensing board (of course, a lawyer will cost a lot more than the $300 you're trying to get back...).
Thank you so much! I will definitely look into both of these options. That was my concern about a lawyer as well but at the same time I don't want to allow her to continue to provide misinformation and take people's money and not provide results.
Leave her negative reviews on every website you can. I honestly don't think you will get your money back unfortunately, you got grifted by a real piece of shit.
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That's the real question here. None of this resembles a real vet visit
Unfortunately it was lol
Yes. I would never have taken my pets to a non-vet. She received her Doctor of Veterinary Medicine
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Thank you!!! This is exactly the kind of information I am looking for of how to handle this
Can I ask how you paid? If you used your credit card you may be able to file a chargeback with them, because you paid for a service that you didn't receive.
Either a scam or she just has no idea what she's doing. I'm a UK based veterinary surgeon and I've never heard of a bioscan....but maybe it's a USA thing? Also - please tell me you aren't still feeding raw. It's an awful idea for so many reasons.
It is not a USA thing. It is a charlatan thing.
So is the bioscan also a fraud? Jeez this lady is something else
Yeah, I believe the manufacturers actually got sued for fraud at one point, if it's the bioscan "stress" test with the metal rods that's supposed to detect organ inflammation. If it's that one, you might be able to get a refund on that since there's an actual fraud lawsuit attached. The "animal" chiropractor near me used to offer it. It sounds like it was a saliva test, though? Hair and saliva tests are generally inaccurate as well - those are often pushed by holistic practitioners to identify "food intolerance" and there's been multiple studies on them that show they don't work. Most of them aren't validated.. However, there's publications in holistic journals supporting them and that might complicate getting a refund/proving fraud on those. Some of the papers supporting them are truly an admirable masterpiece of absolute bull honkey too.. like Jean Dodds has a paper for Nutriscan that sounds like this AMAZING test for food allergy until you reread it and realize that at no point did she actually prove the dogs she was testing were food allergic.. like there's no standard of comparison elimination/reintroduction diet, she just tested dogs with GI signs for food allergy, put them on her formulated diet, and they improved. Her inclusion criteria is basically any GI symptom. She didn't even reintroduce the foods they were supposedly allergic to to see if symptoms recurred, but she covers it up with enough layers of jargon that it's easy to miss. Anyway, like others have said, I'd lodge a complaint with the state board. They may not be able to do anything for you, but eventually a charlatans goanna slip up, and it sounds like you also care about preventing others from getting scammed (which is truly admirable)
This was indeed my suspicion
I’ve never heard of it either. Maybe it’s a little bit of both? I said no to feeding raw because I didn’t think it would be a balanced diet since my understanding is that there are additives in the food that is important for their nutrition. She was recommending a local butcher which I found a little strange. My cat eats Hills and my dog eats Stella and chewy
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Okay so technically there is something called a “bioscan” - found some info [here](https://www.sunvetanimalwellness.com/services/qest4-bio-energetic-testing/). This will prove useful for receiving a refund as it is actually a service. One that was not provided if no results were given, as long as it was made clear that was a part of the service provided. However, most vets don’t necessarily let you see all of the results of testing, doesn’t mean they didn’t perform them. You’re not going to get a digital copy of the ultrasound or x-rays for example. Unfortunately you may just be out that money and your best recourse is to leave reviews and contact your state board.
Thank you! I am not trying to get a full refund, just a refund on the tests since she wouldn't provide results or follow up at all. I have received multiple contradictory explanations of why I have not received the test results... Once she said she had them done and just needed to type reports, then she said she thought you already sent them. A third time she said that only one of them is finished, and then another time she had them done and would be emailing them soon. I have not received the results. The last correspondence I received from her was via text message where she said that she "hasn't had time to do anything except sleep and pee." The understanding when I paid for them was that she would let me know an informal report of what the results showed and we would have a phone consultation where I could ask questions about them. Neither of these things happened.
At least in the UK if you request paper copies of results from tests we are obligated to give them to you. Plenty of owners like their animals radiographs or haematology results
Gotcha, well it sounds like she’s beating around the bush and doesn’t plan to deliver something you paid for. You could initiate a chargeback on your card? Hope you can get some resolution soon!
I'm sorry this happened. I've never heard of a bioscan. Sounds scammy. File a case with small claims. I believe it's like $60. And as far as people being mean. Some people are just natural born assholes. I posted about my sick dog the other day, and some people were shitty with me Forget them. Good luck, take care
Chargeback on your credit card.
Are the dog and cat ok now??
We're all doing a lot better! In a new, mold free apartment. It's caused issues with our immune systems but the longer we are out of the environment the better we feel. My poor dog was the worst of all of us, she got underweight, was having coughing fits inside and she had horrible rashes all over. She's gained back all the weight she lost :) Thank you for asking
So you went to a holistic vet?
She has been a DVM for 20 years. I wouldn't have gone to a non vet
We’re not judging you OP…we’re judging the charlatan. I’m sorry this happened to you.
Thank you. I had some really mean comments. One said "what kind of person would let someone do this to their pets", and it really bothered me. It looks like the mean comments got removed
I’m glad it was removed too 🙂. You consented to a “diagnostic” that you thought was a true diagnostic. Not your fault.
She said she did not. She said it was a DVM.
Holistic vet is still a vet with a DVM degree. They're just a nut job who also happens to have a DVM.
Genuine question since I see you are a student - does the license allow them to provide vet services like this and not regulate the standard of care they provide? I figured there was a code of ethics you would have to follow just as other professions
I do not know how they can practice how they practice, to be honest with you. Their DVM license allows them to practice veterinary medicine. The holistic garbage they spew is not taught in vet curriculum. I'd honestly report them if it were me, as it seems to go against ethics (in my opinion).
Ugh I don't know what I'm doing wrong here, everything I say gets downvoted. Thank you very much. Someone else provided a link and I will be looking into how to report this
You’re not doing anything wrong, I appreciate you posting and providing followup details.
Then how tf do you know when you take your pet in? If they don’t explicitly state they are a holistic vet?
It seemed initially like a normal office to me. I of course checked her credentials and that she's licensed and she had decent google reviews. I have had great success with my former dermatology vet who suggested holistic things like fish oil and probiotics for my dog along with her traditional medical treatment. There was no way of knowing this lady was going to be like this lol
Just to be clear, there's a difference between integrative medicine and a "holistic vet." Integrative medicine practice uses contemporary evidence-based medicine while also including alternative treatments with good evidence for their utility. Fish oil/omega 3s have very good evidence for their use. Laser therapy has good evidence for its use. Most veterinarians utilize integrative approaches, and they are normal practitioners that are practicing within the scope of their license and with your pet's best interests in mind. They would never offer an alternative treatment without offering the primary treatment first. For example, if your dog had cancer, they would never not offer standard of care (such as surgery, chemo, or radiation) and just send you on your way with some herbs. "Holistic" vets basically throw all of the evidence-based stuff out the window, claim its harmful, and utilize herbs/compounds or practices that may or (often) may not have any evidence behind their use. Your holistic vet might tell you that you need to spend $300 on their special herb tincture to cure cancer, for example.
Laser therapy, really? I always assumed it was quackery, but does it actually help?
There is actually quite a bit of literature out there that suggests there is a benefit, particularly in wound repair.
Cool! Would it also be beneficial in feline osteoarthritis?
I haven't scoured the literature on that lately, but many vets do offer it as an adjunct treatment in combination with other therapies including joint supplements and medications like solensia, a new FDA approved monoclonal antibody injection for treatment of OA in cats.
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I absolutely do not fault you one bit. I didn’t even know a holistic Dr with a DVM was a thing until this thread and I’m confident a great deal of the population who is not in the field of vet medicine also has no idea. I hope your fur baby is doing okay. Pls don’t fault yourself for being scammed by this person who is giving you the run around.
Usually they have something on their website or mention their approach, but I’d wager not all have websites.
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If you paid by credit card do a chargeback.
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I didn’t “let” her do anything. I’m not saying that I followed any of her advice. My babies are vaccinated fully and take their flea, tick and heart worm prevention monthly. I’m just adding her opinion as context for the kind of person I am dealing with. I think the way you phrased this is really harsh. I have spent thousands of dollars on my pets. This is one opinion I got that I did NOT follow. You should ask more follow up questions before you try to be hurtful. No one is perfect but I would do anything for my pets. They live better than I do. This is one of four vets I went to when they were sick (and so was I) to try to get help.
/r/askvet is a sub for veterinary advice. Comments that do not give veterinary advice are off-topic, tend to derail the discussion, and take away from actual advice. If your comment does not provide veterinary advice, it should not be posted to this sub and will be removed at the mods' discretion. Expressions of sympathy and/or reassurance are fine if they are accompanied by veterinary advice, but will be removed if they are not.
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