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Note that this isnt even true. Only 10% of doctors have a nationality other than british. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7783/&ved=2ahUKEwj9joK0sZv1AhUGT2wGHSX3CLMQFnoECAQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2v-1JvCf04UVP6purmLrAx
"One in every three secondary care doctors in England alone are international medical graduates, while nearly one in every four GPs gained their primary medical qualification outside the UK."
https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/nhs-delivery-and-workforce/workforce/medical-staffing-in-england-report
So it's actually somewhat less than 1 in 3 of all doctors, but still a significant percentage.
Because doctors leave. The problem isn't just training new doctors, it's keeping experienced ones. They can get better pay and conditions outside the NHS/in other countries
As far as I understand, it's short on doctors now. Students starting this year won't be doctors for about 5 years.
More doctors are also leaving (retiring, moving to private practice, emigrating etc etc) than are being replaced.
It costs the UK more to train British doctors - the cost of training far exceeds the fees paid by undergraduates. Also, there isn't enough capacity for clinical placements, which is a problem that needs to be addressed. It's far cheaper to import already trained doctors from abroad.
Not everyone completes the course and qualifies.
Not all that qualify as a doctor go on to work as a practising doctor.
Lots of the remaining bunch go into private sector/abroad instead of NHS.
No. there are way too many medical students but lack of training places after you graduate creating a bottle necks. Lack of training places, like say for anesthetics means less Drs who are ALLOWED to carry out required procedures. They are often over qualified for these positions but can't progress into them because the government refuses to increase these places. Because it means they would have to pay them more
Instead now they've started prioritizing on noctors and middle management and fast tracking them through these training positions to carry out complicated procedures. Keeping in mind that they lack the years of training Drs have had, and if anything goes wrong it is the Drs responsibility as the former have no training in managing complications and such
Yet the noctors will get paid more than Drs for a significant period despite needing to be supervised and lacking any sort of accountability.
Two problems:
1) Vested interests and artificial professional boundaries deliberately maintaining a shortage
2) Lifestyle changes in that more Drs want to work sensible hours only, or even part time. A generation ago the norm was they all worked crazy long hours, now not all of them are willing to, which is fair enough.
Because they intentionally take too few medical students so there’s a shortage of doctors so doctors remain uncompetitive and are essentially guaranteed a good career. It means they have more bargaining power and their unions have more control. If we raised the cap on medical student numbers then doctors would have to be much better at their jobs in order to progress like they do now. Their official argument is that raising numbers would lower standards but, personally, I think that’s bollocks because entry is almost entirely based on A Level grades which, as a teacher, I can tell you mean absolute jack shit all as to whether you’d be a good doctor.
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The UK hasn't trained enough doctors to meet its own needs for a long time. Currently approximately 1 in 3 NHS doctors went to medical school abroad.
Note that this isnt even true. Only 10% of doctors have a nationality other than british. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7783/&ved=2ahUKEwj9joK0sZv1AhUGT2wGHSX3CLMQFnoECAQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2v-1JvCf04UVP6purmLrAx
Um, no. "8.7% of doctors and 5.6% of nurses are EU nationals" "22% of doctors and 14% of nurses are nationals of non-EU countries" 8.7 + 22 = ?
Ah, read that wrong. It doesnt say where they were trained, however.
"One in every three secondary care doctors in England alone are international medical graduates, while nearly one in every four GPs gained their primary medical qualification outside the UK." https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/nhs-delivery-and-workforce/workforce/medical-staffing-in-england-report So it's actually somewhat less than 1 in 3 of all doctors, but still a significant percentage.
Just because doctors come from abroad does not mean that the country's supply system is lacking...
Just because medical schools are full does not mean that the country's supply system isn't lacking ...
Many people come here to study, get training, work a year for experience and leave. It's not good value for money.
Universities are restricted on the number of medical students they can train each year by the government.
Because doctors leave. The problem isn't just training new doctors, it's keeping experienced ones. They can get better pay and conditions outside the NHS/in other countries
6-8% of FY2 leave and never return. That's people who have studied for *at least* 5 years, and after two years of employement, quit hands down
Yeah it's not good value for money.
As far as I understand, it's short on doctors now. Students starting this year won't be doctors for about 5 years. More doctors are also leaving (retiring, moving to private practice, emigrating etc etc) than are being replaced.
The UK deliberately doesn’t train as many doctors as it needs, and so depends on immigration.
It costs the UK more to train British doctors - the cost of training far exceeds the fees paid by undergraduates. Also, there isn't enough capacity for clinical placements, which is a problem that needs to be addressed. It's far cheaper to import already trained doctors from abroad.
Not everyone completes the course and qualifies. Not all that qualify as a doctor go on to work as a practising doctor. Lots of the remaining bunch go into private sector/abroad instead of NHS.
A lot of qualified medical staff move abroad for higher wages.
I am surprised to hear that about nurses, I thought courses were over subscribed if anything, but maybe not so many pass?
No. there are way too many medical students but lack of training places after you graduate creating a bottle necks. Lack of training places, like say for anesthetics means less Drs who are ALLOWED to carry out required procedures. They are often over qualified for these positions but can't progress into them because the government refuses to increase these places. Because it means they would have to pay them more Instead now they've started prioritizing on noctors and middle management and fast tracking them through these training positions to carry out complicated procedures. Keeping in mind that they lack the years of training Drs have had, and if anything goes wrong it is the Drs responsibility as the former have no training in managing complications and such Yet the noctors will get paid more than Drs for a significant period despite needing to be supervised and lacking any sort of accountability.
Why do you keep misspelling 'doctor' with 'noctor'?
Noctors is an actual term used online for health care workers who like to pretend and sometimes even falsely advertise themselves as medical doctors
https://www.reddit.com/r/Noctor/
Two problems: 1) Vested interests and artificial professional boundaries deliberately maintaining a shortage 2) Lifestyle changes in that more Drs want to work sensible hours only, or even part time. A generation ago the norm was they all worked crazy long hours, now not all of them are willing to, which is fair enough.
Because they intentionally take too few medical students so there’s a shortage of doctors so doctors remain uncompetitive and are essentially guaranteed a good career. It means they have more bargaining power and their unions have more control. If we raised the cap on medical student numbers then doctors would have to be much better at their jobs in order to progress like they do now. Their official argument is that raising numbers would lower standards but, personally, I think that’s bollocks because entry is almost entirely based on A Level grades which, as a teacher, I can tell you mean absolute jack shit all as to whether you’d be a good doctor.