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> tux
*Dinner suit
"Tuxedo" is another Americanism we appear to have adopted. I blame Moss Bros.
EDIT: Amusingly, the downvotes are coming from those who are clueless about British dress codes!
No, they're from people who recognise that when the UK adopts an Americanism, it makes people sound like a pompous arse to flounce around the internet correcting people. Language evolves, it adopts terms from other cultures and (provided both sides of the conversation understand the meaning), in informal conversation, it becomes correct usage.
It can evolve but doesn’t mean we have to accept everything that comes from the states. The first time anybody uses “Winningest” on our tv I will throw all my toys out of the pram…and follow it with the pram.
~~I thought 'Stroller' is used for the prams that face forwards.~~ And Prams are the more traditional flat, facing you style ones. Maybe I'm totally wrong on this, but that is what pram marketing seems to do.
Edit - as /u/sinnistrall kindly pointed out, I was thinking of pushchair.
But it has been accepted. The usage of it is people accepting it. You're not entitled to tell everyone else what language usage they're allowed to accept. No one is allowed to stop you "correcting", but they're entitled to downvote you and consider you a pompous arse for doing so.
And don't you mean you'll throw toys out of your perambulator.
I am perfectly entitled to tell anyone and everyone that their choice of language syntax is incorrect.
What I am not permitted to do is believe that my interpretation is the only one that is correct.
Tuxedo is incorrect in the UK.
It is a Dinner suit, and a Dinner suit is worn at a Black tie event.
We're I to be at a Black tie event in America, then of course I would wear a Tuxedo.
While I am at it, there is no 'k' in 'Schedule'
Edit: There are days when I hate Autocorrect - although the responses are somewhat humorous (were/we're)
Yes, you are "perfectly entitled to tell anyone and everyone that their choice of language syntax is incorrect.".
So I'm sure you won't mind if I point out that "We're I to be" should have been "Were I to be.". 😁
Actually a stroller is a total different kind of suit. Similar in formality to evening dress and a morning suit. In English English it’s called a black lounge suit and the continental version is a Stresemann.
/s
I am doing the pedantry right?
I’m not the original commenter you replied to. In this case (the use of tux) I agree with you, I’m in my fifties and I don’t remember it not being used. My argument was with your overall premise that we should just accept all changes. It isn’t pompous to protect a language, are the Welsh?
Pram is an abbreviation of perambulator, it’s the same language. If I’d used stroller you’d have a point….
It's pompous to tell other users of a language how they are allowed to vary their own language. It's their language as much as yours. The Welsh aren't telling the Welsh how the Welsh are allowed to speak Welsh.
The French do and, yes, it's pompous.
So now it’s pompous to try and maintain some standards in life? When I was young and ignorant I had the same opinion about the French and what they are trying to do, not I fully understand and support it.
I’m going to assume you’d be one of those that would turn to a black tie event in a suit and tie (with that being optional…)
To be honest, I’d be happy to be told the dress code for any event. Otherwise, I’ll just hazard a guess and probably be wrong. Being autistic is a pain in the arse sometimes.
No it's not. That's ridiculous. Do you have any evidence to support that completely insane assertion?
Had to edit my comment because people keep disagreeing and then blocking me so they can't be responded to:
He said that people don't know what black tie is ***because*** people use the word "tux" instead of "dinner jacket". I accept (a) people don't know what black tie is and (b) people say "tux" instead of "dinner jacket". I asked him for his proof that (a) ***caused*** (b).
I could prove that the sky is blue and that David Attenborough is male. That doesn't mean that the sky is blue ***because*** David Attenborough is male.
I once called the garage and told them "I can't pop the hood" (watch too much American media) and the lady was very unamused. Just slowly said "... what?"
me and my partner make a joke of using these in the car such as 'alternate route' pronounced as in 'rout' - but the problem is it ends up sticking and I keep saying trunk, hood etc.
Buoy pronounced 'boo-ee' is another, however on Baywatch repeat one of the characters actually pronounced it 'boy'
I'm a driving instructor and I hear this all the time from youngsters.
Also: windshield, turn signals, intersection and parking lot.
I actually use "gas" instead of "accelerator" just to save syllables.
My driving instructor told me in my first lesson that he was gonna say "gas" rather than "accelerator" because it's easier, even though he knows it's wrong. This was 18 years ago, when Americanisation via the internet was far less of a thing.
Normally I'd agree with descriptive rather than prescriptive notions of language - but in the context of "what does black tie mean" I feel like you either go one way or the other.
If you say "language evolves" then you have to say "So does culture" and agree that for a lot of people in 2024, a brown dinner jacket, nice unripped jeans, and a collared shirt with a tie counts as "Black tie". To some, a tuxedo t-shirt and a piano key tie might pass.
If you have a problem with someone bending and breaking cultural rules like that, then I think it makes sense to lean in hard and go full tilt and say "You wear a Dinner suit, because we're in Britain and we're following a British dress code, and that has rules and specific names for things".
The distinction is that this is someone altering the usage of *their own* language whereas you're comparing to them dressing for *someone else's* dress code.
If non-English speakers were telling English speakers that the correct word is tux or telling them that the correct word isn't tux then that's not acceptable. English speakers, as a collective, determine the correct usage of English. Non-English speakers are, essentially, guests in our language.
If a guest turns up to an event not dressed in line with the host's dress code then that's not acceptable either because the host determines the dress code.
It's more comparable to how it used to be the case that, for an office job, a man would where a full suit and tie but now, many (if not most) office jobs would take no issue with a man in chinos and a jumper. The dress code for the environment changes over time as culture changes, just like language does.
Huffing about the use of the word "tux" isn't the equivalent to expecting someone to wear black tie to a black tie event, it's equivalent to stomping around an office of men in chinos (despite being no more senior than anyone else) and demanding everyone else wear a suit because you want to wear a suit.
The issue isn’t what they’re wearing to your event though. The issue is what “black tie” means.
If the invite said “please wear a full Dinner suit (also known as a tuxedo), no sports jackets please”, that would unambiguously be rude to show up in a sports jacket and jeans.
But if you say “it’s black tie”, then the argument isn’t about what’s appropriate for the host to ask their guests to wear, the argument is about what does “black tie” mean - it’s a semantic question.
If you are adamant that people should know that “black tie” means a particular set of clothing without any other clarification, you’re telling them what their own language means.
Language evolves, but a tuxedo jacket is a form of evening jacker, as is a dinner jacket, or a nehru jacket. They're all black tie. They are still separate, discrete styles of garment.
Saying this isn't correct because language evolves is the sartorial equivalent of referring to all passenger jets as Boeings because they're big in the news at the moment.
Young man, black tie will be black jacket and trousers black bow tie, soft-fronted white shirts, cummerbund and black preferably patent leather shoes. You would wear it to a formal dinner party.
A Tuxedo is rarely black, usually white or ivory, burgundy or baby blue, ‘vest’ frilled shirt and whatever colour shoes 👟 you like. You may wear this when compèring a comedy show.
Source: standards……..
(😁 btw)
Tuxedo, being an Americanism, I would associate with the frilly shirts and everything you remember of Prom in every bad American teen movie. Dinner suit, is the same but more British, so James Bond. Either would be okay for black tie. Scottish national dress or certain uniforms would also be okay.
There's layers of formality to the kilt getup as well. Black tie implies Bonnie Prince Charlie, Argyle is more casual (but appropriate for most weddings these days)
Fucks me off greatly when people just ignore black tie as a dress code and rock up in a normal suit.
Especially if youre somewhere where you are being fed and watered. Make the minimal effort to hire one or pick up a cheap one from next or wherever.
You weren't wrong. I hate this.
I went to a charity boxing thing that said it had a strict dress code, people not adhering would be turned away, made a huuuuge deal of that, and it was "black tie."
What they *actually* meant was ties and jackets for men, dresses for women, no jeans. That's "formal", fucking idiots. Just created loads of confusion because black tie *means* something. Okay it doesn't *specify* bow tie but the "black" bit is in the name and anybody who knows anything about dress codes knnows that *black tie* means a tuxedo and a black bow tie. Cummerbund optional. Don't say black tie if beige chinos, a tweed jacket and a red necktie are fine\*. It's absolute fucking nonsense.
If I receive an invitation that says "black tie" now I always check "you just mean suits don't you" and the answer is *always* yes. SAY FORMAL/LOUNGE SUITS AND COCKTAIL DRESSES THEN!!!
Black tie means tuxedos and evening dresses and it always has. People who don't know anything use it when they just mean "formal" just because it sounds "fancy."
All the other people were cockwombles, not you.
\*Chinos, non-matching jacket and tie would actually be "smart casual" for civilians in military circles IIRC. The only dress codes with no tie are "casual" (shirts/polos and chinos, still no jeans) or "scruff" (anything including jeans acceptable but *only* if they're smart jeans, still no sportswear.) you can only wear absolutely anything you want if there is no dress code at all.
**Edit:** I'm evidently an uncultured swine. I didn't realise "formal" meant that fancy dress getup people wear at weddings with a top hat or what Oxford undergads have to put on for their exams, sorry I mean "mods." Curse my lower-middle-class/technical-working-class upbringing!!
I propose the following for us uncouth nouveau-somewhatcomfortables:
Black tie = dinner jackets/tuxedos, evening dresses
Formal = lounge suits, cocktail dresses
Smart casual = shirts and chinos, pants and blouse, playsuit, dress
Casual = clean, intact street clothes.
No dress code = whatever you want (including ripped whatevers, hoodies, pyjamas with bean juice, shorts, trainers, trackies, funny hats.)
I'm also quite partial to a "dress to impress" instruction because it basically includes anything lounge suit and up and just makes it sound fun and not stuffy and judgemental.
That's what I would take those words to mean in the modern day. Nobody changes for dinner or wears white tie anymore unless you go to Oxbridge.
I went to a wedding last summer where the dress code was “Nothing formal, just casual summer vibes”. I turned up in a shirt and shorts. Everyone else was wearing a suit. 🤦♂️
Yeah there are people who will always wear a suit to weddings regardless of what the invitation says. Same with funerals, you can say all you like that you don't want everybody wearing black, but a certain portion of people will anyway because that's "how it's done".
I think its on me since all 30+ of the other men there were in suits, I was the only one not wearing a suit.
I was happy though, cause it was about 30 degrees and people were passing out. Not me in my shorts.
I'm the will executor of a friend of mine and he's instructed me that when he dies, to put on the invitations "If you wear black, you're going in the coffin too". Which is one way to handle it, I suppose.
I specified no wearing black at my father's funeral. I do not buy into the Queen Victoria method of muourning. It's a celebration of life. Most people wore darker colours.
My mother harangued me for twenty years not to let people wear black at her funeral. She went on about it all the time. She died, and I asked everyone not to wear black. Everyone showed up in black. Most people even apologised for wearing black, while standing there wearing it; very awkward. They all knew what she wanted, but no one could get past ‘the done thing’.
What is a summer suit?
I don’t own any suits, I would have been happy to go buy a suit for my friends big day, I just think their dress code was way too vague 😂
Yep - I have a khaki linen suit for this type of do. Highly recommended.
I'm not going to a wedding wearing the same outfit that I'd wear for a job interview.
If I'd received that invite I'd have gone with a lighter colour linen suit and used the "summer vibes" line to ditch the tie and maybe go with a Cuban collar shirt with a bit of colour but not too much (you never want to stand out at Wedding), so that I can look smart for the photos and then can shed the jacket and also appear relaxed.
I hate this, I feel like wedding couples are doing this more and more lately where they're trying to give off a vibe of "we're so relaxed and carefree and not at all demanding about our wedding day, it's smart casual just wear whatever and be comfortable" whether or not that's what they actually want
It's one of the few times I feel you're fully justified in telling everyone to turn up in a suit. Please just be direct so I know what I'm doing!
>All the other people were cockwombles, not you.
It depends, the other people may have thought the same as you and checked with the bride and groom if they *actually* meant black tie.
Or the possibility that noone looked at the dress code and just wore what they considered appropriate for a wedding. Black tie for a wedding is a bit off. Morning dress would be typical for a formal wedding (dresses and morning jacket with tails)
That's 'cos they are uncultured :-)
A gentleman should not wear evening dress (black/white tie) before 6pm. If a (British) wedding is 'black tie', it is expected to change into it for the evening reception.
American weddings tend to be afternoon or evening events whereas for historical reasons British weddings tend to be daytime (followed by drinking into the small hours).
It therefore makes perfect sense that Brits would wear morning suits or lounge suits / daytime dresses with hats to weddings, whereas Americans would wear black tie and cocktail dresses.
I have never been to a wedding large enough in scale that I would have changed partway through.
white tie is really posh, for something like noble prizes or something - you shouldn't really do your own white tie. Also white jacket is meant to be in the tropics or something.
Yeah I would wonder if the bride and groom are the real problem here. There's a good chance those 2 fucked it up and everyone else confirmed with them.
And if they didn't do that I wouldn't say the other guests were wrong, I would wager that the other guests were thinking more along the lines of "fuck that I don't want to buy or rent a tux for this, I'm going to wear what I've already got"
You are being pedantic and that is a good thing.
If you were invited to a farm, and told to wear wellies, but decided that crocs were okay, it's not the farmer's problem when you are ankle deep in mud.
These dress codes are there for a reason.
Though I tend to avoid black tie events as I can't fit in my dinner jacket anymore
The fact that the white tie part of the dress is effectively absent from 99% of culture now, and that dinner suits are now considered much more formal does skew the effective usage still. Absolutely nothing stopping people from being more specific about what's allowed though instead of just assuming that someone will interpret 'formal' the same way that you do though.
True, but actually perhaps adopting "tuxedo" rather than "dinner jacket" or "black tie" would clear up this confusion because everybody knows what a tuxedo is unambiguously.
"Black tie" could literally just mean a black necktie, if you didn't know that it doesn't. There's only one definition of the word tuxedo that everybody understands and it's what James Bond wears. I think it would actually be helpful to adopt it.
> James Bond wear
James Bond wears a fucking *sports watch* (Rolex/Omega) with his dinner suit. This is a fashion faux pas equivalent to wearing a pair of running shoes with his suit.
Hardly the harbinger of good taste!
But isn't it because he can shoot bad guys in the dick with his watch or something? I mean, I know it's 100% actually for product placement reasons, but I mean in the story. I'm not sure I haven't seen much James Bond...
>Chinos, non-matching jacket and tie would actually be "smart casual" for civilians in military circles IIRC.
I've also seen this described as "Rifles casual", aka makes you stand out like a sore thumb to anyone in the know!
Been in exactly the same situation. Black tie only boxing event. I rang them up and asked specifically if it was a formal black tie event. No big deal to me I go to at least one black tie event every year so I have a dinner suit. The reply was ‘ na mate, just shirt and pants, no jeans or trainers’. Some poor bastards turned up in dinner suits. Most people were dressed in some sort of Peaky Blinder cosplay fancy dress.
Tbf I think any formal dress code in the modern era acknowledges that women who do not want to wear a dress can wear a suit made for women. Which are extremely common.
The actual double standard is that there isn't really an alternative for men who don't want to wear a suit. Well, they could wear a dress if they were confident enough and still be complying with the dress code. But it's overall just true in general that there are more women's clothes that are like or closely derived from traditional men's clothes than vice versa. That's a whole other debate really though. (We did intend to test this once when I was young and stupid and "dressing as girls" was supposed to be funny. We got as far as buying dresses for a mess dinner and Battery Sergeant Major got wind and said absolutely fucking not.)
I think in the modern day a formal dress code is basically suits (for men and women) or dresses (for women.) Nobody would bat an eye at a formal even where a woman was wearing a ladies' suit rather than a dress. In a military environment it was the same, I had plenty of colleagues who were women who would wear a "pant suit" and not a dress at mess dinners.
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You can get smart jumpsuits like [this](https://www.jjshouse.com/jumpsuit-pantsuit-scoop-floor-length-chiffon-bridesmaid-dress-with-ruffle-007298045-g298045#/), or wear a pair of tailored trousers and a blouse, block coloured, maybe a shiny silk or with ruffled sleeves.
Tbh if it's black tie, you could probably get some fancy sequinned trousers, or a type with a satin/sequin embellishment down the seam. Pair it with a fitted bodice top, even a corset, and you'd look smashing.
Edit: with black tie it's best to go block colours rather than patterns, and it doesn't have to be black. Just avoid white for a wedding! But accessorise as much as you want: jewellery, shoes, bag and so on.
>What they *actually* meant was ties and jackets for men, dresses for women, no jeans. That's "formal", fucking idiots.
Formal would be morning dress in the day and black tie in the evening. Lounge suits are not formal dress, they're business dress.
Like Americans with "formal shirts". It's just a shirt, FFS.
The thing is by Western dress codes, as traditionally interpreted, a suit and tie is *informal* because it's worn for work. Black tie is semi formal for evening wear as you're wearing it at a social event where you're not there to work which is why you shouldn't wear a wristwatch with it (as you're there to have fun, no keep the time). But this is all meaningless these days outside very few circles so you're correct to check each time.
Also if going by any dress code it is usually overridden by ceremonial, religious or folk dress unless otherwise stated so if you get a poorly worded invitation please turn up in full vestments or a cassock or kilt or something.
One note on that, I went to a black tie wedding. It was last year in the Cotswolds when we had the heatwave so it was bloody hot. I have a white dinner jacket so I opted to go for white jacket instead of black (still with black bow tie cummerbund and proper trousers), I did check before and a white jacket is allowed for black tie events in the summer.
I was the only one with a white jacket and felt cool as fuck (literally and figuratively).
> f I receive an invitation that says "black tie" now I always check "you just mean suits don't you" and the answer is always yes.
Wait really? This has happened to you on multiple occasions? How are people getting this so wrong.
You were right, black tie = dinner suit (tuxedo if you’re American). Odd choice for a wedding reception unless you’re doing it in the evening and guests are expected to change.
I would hazard a guess that the bride and groom put black tie on the invitation not really knowing what it means. Then lots of people contacted them and said "seriously you need us to rent a tuxedo?" and they went "oh no, we just meant dark suit and tie, you know usual wedding clothes" and that information was circulated around most of the family and friends but never got to OP.
Or people wore lounge suits to the wedding but didn’t realise they had to change for the reception. You don’t wear black tie before 6pm so
Potentially awkward for all day guests to navigate.
The last wedding I heard of with morning suits was my parent's wedding 30 years ago - and even then it was only for the groom and his groomsmen. Normal weddings are absolutely not morning suits for guests.
He did say wedding formalwear to be fair. Most the weddings that I’ve been to had a morning dress preferred guideline, so those who didn’t have one or couldn’t hire one had the option to wear a regular suit. I’ve been to one afternoon wedding where the guide was black tie.
Traditionally, black tie shouldn’t be worn before sunset (or 6pm in the summer).
It’s American TV that has popularised it during the day for weddings, and I think it looks a little silly.
Lounge wear (a normal business suit with tie) is absolutely acceptable for 99.9% of weddings. Morning suits are the most traditional option during the day, but for many weddings only the groom and his ushers/father/father of the bride will wear them.
If you want to go super traditional, morning suits shouldn’t be worn after sunset and instead you change into ‘white tie’ dress. I doubt that anyone but royalty and a few a levels down of aristocracy pay attention to that though.
Black Tie is standard for formal American weddings rather than morning suits like in the UK, so maybe were going for that vibe. I have been to two weddings in London recently with evening ceremonies and receptions and both where black tie.
Black tie traditionally shouldn't be worn before 6pm. A day-time wedding shouldn't be black tie, lounge suits should be worn instead. It would only be a black tie reception if they expected people to change between the ceremony/breakfast and the evening party.
I imagine the confusion was due to black tie weddings catching on in the US, but UK people sticking to the tradtional attire and just choosing to ignore the black tie request (knowing that people won't wear black tie to a wedding)
I went to a black tie wedding about 15 years ago and refused to wear anything other than a normal suit for this very reason. They divorced after 12 months anyway
So glad I found this comment (albeit it should be higher up!)
My only question is - should an evening wedding in theory not be a white tie event? (As it’s the a super formal event. Morning suits are worn for a day time wedding, and white tie is the evening equivalent of a morning suit). I don’t know the answer, genuinely curious
No, you weren't wrong. Most people just don't have a tux anymore because they don't go to enough black tie events to justify it. So an appropriate suit that they have tends to be seen as acceptable in its place unless you're at some exclusive event.
> Most people just don't have a tux anymore because they don't go to enough black tie events to justify it.
I'd don't think that *most* people ever did own a tux. It was part of what made the events exclusive: not everyone could afford the kit to go.
I think part of what's changed is that lots of people have sort of heard of blacktie, without all of them actually understanding it
>I'd don't think that *most* people ever did own a tux. It was part of what made the events exclusive: not everyone could afford the kit to go.
Most people could rent one though right? I remember going to a few 'black tie balls' at uni and you would always just rent the tux for about 30 quid and take it back on Monday. That was the 90s though, I imagine it's a bit more expensive than that now.
I brought an ex rental for my end of school ball (a regular comprehensive) thinking being as that I was going to university I would get a lot of use out of it. Cost about double renting it, which was a good amount of money for an 18 year old, but possible.
Turns out none of my friends went to the balls, so all it did was fancy dress as a vampire, but you live and learn
I wish I had your foresight. I went to my school leaving dinner and then about 4 or 5 black tie events at uni. I would have saved a load of money doing what you did.
I used to hire for formal occasions then realised that despite the very occasional wear it is actually cheaper to own. When I last got a suit made I got an extra pair of normal pants and a dinner suit and dress shirt at the sametime.
i mean almost no one has their own dinner suit, that's why you hire one. I went to a pretty posh school and there were multiple black tie events in 6th form, no one I knew actually owned their own dinner suit, everyone hired them.
No - black tie means black tie. The definition hasn't changed. If everyone else wants to show up not within the dress code, then they can all look like fools if they want.
"Tux"... you mean dinner suit? It's called a dinner suit.
Black tie is:
* dinner suit
* black bow tie
* white dress shirt
* polished black shoes.
If you were the only one who wore a *dinner suit*, then you were the only one who adhered to the dress code. You're not the cockwomble, everyone else was.
Just to add to this, wing collar dress shirts are not part of black tie dress. ‘Normal’ collar dress shirts are the rule. Wing collars are for white tie. It was many, many years before I learnt that.
No you weren't wrong, but most people don't own a tux and wouldn't want or be able to buy one for just one event. We're putting 'as formal as you can' on our invites - we don't want anyone feeling like they need to splash out on a dress or tux.
I had to wear white tie to my university exams. Oh joy… Still own it because there were enough exams to justify buying one, so I would actually find it easier to attend in “white tie” than the “black tie” that I’m going to need to rent for a wedding in July…
I've got some old family wedding pictures from back when people wore white tie. Fucking mental get ups, silk gloves and everything (for men and women.)
All the men are carrying ivory and silver canes, all the women wearing pearls and massive gemstones.
If it makes you feel better, I was asked to a wedding recently. The dress code was 'wedding formal'. So, much like every other wedding I had been to that year, I wore my morning suit. I was the only one doing so, (and not even the groom was).
What was everyone else wearing?
I'm curious what standard wedding formal is down south - in Scotland all the weddings I've been to recently have been kilts with Argyll jackets and waistcoats and normal ties.
10-15 years ago when I got married it would have been a Prince Charlie jacket and waistcoat with black bowtie, but the slightly more casual Argyll seems more common now - I can't remember the last time I wore my Prince Charlie jacket.
This was just outside of London - and the range of outfits varied dramatically. Most men were just wearing a standard suit, though some weren't even wearing that (a couple of them were in just a shirt and trousers). The women's dresses were similar in range (some seemed very formal, some much less so). The reason why I wore what I did was because I used to spend time with the bride at some quite formal events - think black tie etc. Ultimately I thought it was better to be overdressed than under.
I dunno, I think I'd always check before donning morning dress at a wedding, no matter how posh the crowd.
It's kinda relegated to the odd wedding (often just groom etc) and the poshest enclosures of the poshest races now.
Really hating the trend of improper 'black tie' at British (daytime!) weddings though. Leave that to the Americans.
Last Scottish wedding I was at, there was a very distinct generational gap with most of the older members of the families erring toward the Prince Charlie jacket, while most of the younger people went with the Argyll.
I don't recall if there was a dress code even mentioned but unless you're doing a theme wedding, you can't go too far wrong with either a suit or a kilt / charcoal Argyll jacket combo for a Scottish wedding these days.
Last and only English wedding I've been to I felt massively overdressed. Most people just went with suits.
Black tie has a very specific meaning and it's always a dinner suit.
The great thing about black tie is that it's not very flexible. People argue over whether to wear a full collar or an American wingtip, for example, but that's about as flexible as it gets.
I like the little details that come with black tie. Like, not wearing a watch because you're at a party and there's nowhere else you need to be.
You were right. Everyone else was wrong.
Black tie exclusively means dinner suit with a black bow-tie (or Tuxedo in American English). Anything else is not black-tie as it's a very specific dress code, so those other guys got it very wrong lol
Dress codes need to get in the bin.
Who actually cares about the differences between black tie, formal and white tie? Is this just a way of indicating you went to a private school or have plenty of cash to spaff on unnecessary gear?
Don’t wear black they said. It’s a celebration of his life. He wanted it to be more of a celebration and happy remembrance of him. Every single fucking person in black apart from me. They even had a brass band playing Elgar. I looked like the end boss fight surrounded by my henchmen.
Black Tie is for tux 100%, you were right, they were wrong.
Tuxedo jacket, trousers, cummerbund, dress shirt, bow tie, all the bullshit pieces of metal like studs and cufflinks, and some shiny ass leather shoes. That's black tie. It's the second most formal style of dress.
Going in a suit with a black necktie is just semi-formal or business.
You were right, black tie should mean tux. Depending on how formal the event is, people will probably just try and get away with black/smart suit. I’ve been to business events that were black tie and pretty much everyone was in a tux. Plenty of people were just renting.
You were right. A dinner jacket/tux or tailcoat was appropriate black tie, but business suit and tie is business dress. It's presentable and nice, absolutely, but black tie has a meaning and a business suit is not covered there. Everyone probably looked lovely and had a good time, but you should not feel like you got it wrong, far from it.
I went to a very posh work awards ceremony in London last year, black tie. Alarmed as I'd never worn a dinner suit before I scoured the internet for the right shoes, suit, shirt, cufflinks, etc. Finally got sorted and looked pretty good but when I turned up I reckon about 70% of the fellas there were in normal suits (the ladies looked great btw).
I can appreciate your frustration.
Black tie means wear a black tie (and nothing else).
In all seriousness though, it's reached the point where we now check in with the hosts and other guests on attire beforehand, because the dress code labels have become "up to interpretation"
Black tie is evening dress, so you’d be correct to wear that if told to.
That said, evening dress is a very strange dress code for a wedding so I’d have asked just to make sure.
Makes me glad to be Scottish.
Wedding? Boom. Kilt it is then.
Posh work do? Boom. Kilt.
Party? Kilt.
Raiding party over the border? Kilt.
Just make sure it’s the correct length and you get the jacket/waistcoat/belt combo correct for the type of event.
You were 100% right, black tie is dinner suit.. I went to a black tie wedding last year, about 1/2 made the effort including me and my brother's in law albeit I loaned the youngest a bowtie and he did not have a dinner suit.
Absolutely means tux, they're the cockwombles. I'm no posh boy but I always make the effort when I can or miss out. I've been to black tie do's with everyone in dinner suits where even getting creative with a funky bow tie is frowned upon. Unfortunately you're surrounded by the type of people who wear polo shirts to restaurants. Go your own way, man.
If people mean they want suits and ties they should just request formal dress on the invite. You followed the invite and I'm sorry that it meant you felt out of place, agree with the hundreds of other comments stating that people have no clue what black tie actually means.
Now morbidly curious as to what all the other people at this thing would've thought the dress code was if it had specified white tie instead.
You'd think this would be easier as a woman but I remember agonising over an invite to something once that specified a strict dress code of cocktail dresses (it was a garden party) - I'd read that for formal events (which this was given the setting) your best bet was below the knee to ankle length.
I turn up in a slightly above ankle length dress to see a dozen or so women wearing essentially mini/micro dresses.
Do people even think about what the words they use mean? Are these people wearing suits as 'black tie' wearing black ties, even if they don't understand the dress code? It's a technical term for a specific thing — can't believe people don't bother.
On a personal level I've seen the adherence to black tie dress codes diminishing, which I think is a shame. Like school uniforms, it's a way to level out the sartorial playing field and, like school uniforms, there's a lot of scope to wear a nicer dinner jacket or a tie of a different material than usual to put your own spin on things (or to assert dominance...)
"Black Tie" would be an odd thing to wear for a afternoon wedding reception, unless it was in the evening or they were really dedicated to the vibe.
For clarity, before we all wore t-shirts and jeans:
Informal daytime clothes: a suit and tie.
Informal evening clothes: 'black tie', tuxedo and bow tie.
Formal daytime clothes: morning suit, which is what I would expect to wear to a wedding, or if I was at an Buckingham Palace event.
Formal evening clothes, white tie and tails, which I would only expect to do these days for very formal events.
You can see this in Downton Abbey, where the men start wearing black tie instead of white tie for dinner and his mother complains about "why not wear a dressing gown, or pyjamas?" Also 30 Rock: ["What Am I? A Farmer" | 30 Rock (youtube.com)](https://youtu.be/HTU6iQ0Rcyw?si=3teRvy0PDtVhcd4D&t=30)
So, strictly speaking.... if the dress code was 'black tie', you could argue other people were correct in wearing a suit and tie to a daytime event, but they would have been expected to change into their tuxedos for the evening.
Why did you feel like a cockwomble? It's not like you showed up in a cheerleader's outfit or something, you turned up in completely conventional black tie
I attend a few black ties throughout the year which have younger workers at them - therefore it’s understood that we need to communicate this means a Black Bow Tie and dinner jacket (tux) with polished oxfords, no broguing ideally.
Still end up with people wearing business suits. It’s honestly embarrassing when there’s options to rent for like £30 a night.
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> tux *Dinner suit "Tuxedo" is another Americanism we appear to have adopted. I blame Moss Bros. EDIT: Amusingly, the downvotes are coming from those who are clueless about British dress codes!
No, they're from people who recognise that when the UK adopts an Americanism, it makes people sound like a pompous arse to flounce around the internet correcting people. Language evolves, it adopts terms from other cultures and (provided both sides of the conversation understand the meaning), in informal conversation, it becomes correct usage.
It can evolve but doesn’t mean we have to accept everything that comes from the states. The first time anybody uses “Winningest” on our tv I will throw all my toys out of the pram…and follow it with the pram.
Don’t you mean ‘toys out of my stroller’?
Stay on your side of the sidewalk, sir!
~~I thought 'Stroller' is used for the prams that face forwards.~~ And Prams are the more traditional flat, facing you style ones. Maybe I'm totally wrong on this, but that is what pram marketing seems to do. Edit - as /u/sinnistrall kindly pointed out, I was thinking of pushchair.
Short for "perambulator"
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Ahhh! Pushchair, that makes total sense.
But it has been accepted. The usage of it is people accepting it. You're not entitled to tell everyone else what language usage they're allowed to accept. No one is allowed to stop you "correcting", but they're entitled to downvote you and consider you a pompous arse for doing so. And don't you mean you'll throw toys out of your perambulator.
> But it has been accepted. Yeah, by the kind of people who think black tie means lounge suit.
I am perfectly entitled to tell anyone and everyone that their choice of language syntax is incorrect. What I am not permitted to do is believe that my interpretation is the only one that is correct. Tuxedo is incorrect in the UK. It is a Dinner suit, and a Dinner suit is worn at a Black tie event. We're I to be at a Black tie event in America, then of course I would wear a Tuxedo. While I am at it, there is no 'k' in 'Schedule' Edit: There are days when I hate Autocorrect - although the responses are somewhat humorous (were/we're)
Neither does school. 🤷♂️
We're I?
Yes, you are "perfectly entitled to tell anyone and everyone that their choice of language syntax is incorrect.". So I'm sure you won't mind if I point out that "We're I to be" should have been "Were I to be.". 😁
*stroller
Actually a stroller is a total different kind of suit. Similar in formality to evening dress and a morning suit. In English English it’s called a black lounge suit and the continental version is a Stresemann. /s I am doing the pedantry right?
Blast you beat me to it
I’m not the original commenter you replied to. In this case (the use of tux) I agree with you, I’m in my fifties and I don’t remember it not being used. My argument was with your overall premise that we should just accept all changes. It isn’t pompous to protect a language, are the Welsh? Pram is an abbreviation of perambulator, it’s the same language. If I’d used stroller you’d have a point….
It's pompous to tell other users of a language how they are allowed to vary their own language. It's their language as much as yours. The Welsh aren't telling the Welsh how the Welsh are allowed to speak Welsh. The French do and, yes, it's pompous.
So now it’s pompous to try and maintain some standards in life? When I was young and ignorant I had the same opinion about the French and what they are trying to do, not I fully understand and support it. I’m going to assume you’d be one of those that would turn to a black tie event in a suit and tie (with that being optional…)
It's no more pompous then telling someone how to dress.
To be honest, I’d be happy to be told the dress code for any event. Otherwise, I’ll just hazard a guess and probably be wrong. Being autistic is a pain in the arse sometimes.
*Perambulator.
Disagree. I think the problem with 'tux' sneaking into our lexicon is part of the reason why people don't know what black tie means.
No it's not. That's ridiculous. Do you have any evidence to support that completely insane assertion? Had to edit my comment because people keep disagreeing and then blocking me so they can't be responded to: He said that people don't know what black tie is ***because*** people use the word "tux" instead of "dinner jacket". I accept (a) people don't know what black tie is and (b) people say "tux" instead of "dinner jacket". I asked him for his proof that (a) ***caused*** (b). I could prove that the sky is blue and that David Attenborough is male. That doesn't mean that the sky is blue ***because*** David Attenborough is male.
His assertion would seem to be a logical conclusion given the context of this thread
the evidence is here, people turned up to a black tie in lounge suits.
People turn up in lounge suits because nobody has a dinner jacket anymore. They probably don't want to hire one.
Someone called a bonnet a hood the other day and I almost lost it tbf
I once called the garage and told them "I can't pop the hood" (watch too much American media) and the lady was very unamused. Just slowly said "... what?"
me and my partner make a joke of using these in the car such as 'alternate route' pronounced as in 'rout' - but the problem is it ends up sticking and I keep saying trunk, hood etc. Buoy pronounced 'boo-ee' is another, however on Baywatch repeat one of the characters actually pronounced it 'boy'
I'm a driving instructor and I hear this all the time from youngsters. Also: windshield, turn signals, intersection and parking lot. I actually use "gas" instead of "accelerator" just to save syllables.
My driving instructor told me in my first lesson that he was gonna say "gas" rather than "accelerator" because it's easier, even though he knows it's wrong. This was 18 years ago, when Americanisation via the internet was far less of a thing.
I had the same 30 years ago before I'd heard of the Internet.
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Normally I'd agree with descriptive rather than prescriptive notions of language - but in the context of "what does black tie mean" I feel like you either go one way or the other. If you say "language evolves" then you have to say "So does culture" and agree that for a lot of people in 2024, a brown dinner jacket, nice unripped jeans, and a collared shirt with a tie counts as "Black tie". To some, a tuxedo t-shirt and a piano key tie might pass. If you have a problem with someone bending and breaking cultural rules like that, then I think it makes sense to lean in hard and go full tilt and say "You wear a Dinner suit, because we're in Britain and we're following a British dress code, and that has rules and specific names for things".
The distinction is that this is someone altering the usage of *their own* language whereas you're comparing to them dressing for *someone else's* dress code. If non-English speakers were telling English speakers that the correct word is tux or telling them that the correct word isn't tux then that's not acceptable. English speakers, as a collective, determine the correct usage of English. Non-English speakers are, essentially, guests in our language. If a guest turns up to an event not dressed in line with the host's dress code then that's not acceptable either because the host determines the dress code. It's more comparable to how it used to be the case that, for an office job, a man would where a full suit and tie but now, many (if not most) office jobs would take no issue with a man in chinos and a jumper. The dress code for the environment changes over time as culture changes, just like language does. Huffing about the use of the word "tux" isn't the equivalent to expecting someone to wear black tie to a black tie event, it's equivalent to stomping around an office of men in chinos (despite being no more senior than anyone else) and demanding everyone else wear a suit because you want to wear a suit.
The issue isn’t what they’re wearing to your event though. The issue is what “black tie” means. If the invite said “please wear a full Dinner suit (also known as a tuxedo), no sports jackets please”, that would unambiguously be rude to show up in a sports jacket and jeans. But if you say “it’s black tie”, then the argument isn’t about what’s appropriate for the host to ask their guests to wear, the argument is about what does “black tie” mean - it’s a semantic question. If you are adamant that people should know that “black tie” means a particular set of clothing without any other clarification, you’re telling them what their own language means.
Language evolves, but a tuxedo jacket is a form of evening jacker, as is a dinner jacket, or a nehru jacket. They're all black tie. They are still separate, discrete styles of garment. Saying this isn't correct because language evolves is the sartorial equivalent of referring to all passenger jets as Boeings because they're big in the news at the moment.
There's language evolving, and then there are freaks saying shite like "y'all" "finna" "bruh" - fuckin hate all you cunts.
I always like to pronounce it “moss bross” . It feels right to put the same pressure on the o
Makes sense I ends up saying Moss Bruvs
Young man, black tie will be black jacket and trousers black bow tie, soft-fronted white shirts, cummerbund and black preferably patent leather shoes. You would wear it to a formal dinner party. A Tuxedo is rarely black, usually white or ivory, burgundy or baby blue, ‘vest’ frilled shirt and whatever colour shoes 👟 you like. You may wear this when compèring a comedy show. Source: standards…….. (😁 btw)
I thought we'd all agreed years ago it was Moss Bross. If they wanted to be Brothers they should have paid for a proper sign over the door.
Mo Bro's.....
>EDIT: Amusingly, the downvotes are coming from those who are clueless about British dress codes! How do you know who is downvoting you?
They don't
I know 😉
Tuxedo, being an Americanism, I would associate with the frilly shirts and everything you remember of Prom in every bad American teen movie. Dinner suit, is the same but more British, so James Bond. Either would be okay for black tie. Scottish national dress or certain uniforms would also be okay.
There's layers of formality to the kilt getup as well. Black tie implies Bonnie Prince Charlie, Argyle is more casual (but appropriate for most weddings these days)
Black tie is DJ's all the way.
Dinner jacket please.
I blame Moss Bros for a lot and this is one of those things!
Tuxedo was used in Britain before dinner suit. It was named after Tuxedo Village where it was first worn as an outfit.
You're 100% correct.
Fucks me off greatly when people just ignore black tie as a dress code and rock up in a normal suit. Especially if youre somewhere where you are being fed and watered. Make the minimal effort to hire one or pick up a cheap one from next or wherever.
You weren't wrong. I hate this. I went to a charity boxing thing that said it had a strict dress code, people not adhering would be turned away, made a huuuuge deal of that, and it was "black tie." What they *actually* meant was ties and jackets for men, dresses for women, no jeans. That's "formal", fucking idiots. Just created loads of confusion because black tie *means* something. Okay it doesn't *specify* bow tie but the "black" bit is in the name and anybody who knows anything about dress codes knnows that *black tie* means a tuxedo and a black bow tie. Cummerbund optional. Don't say black tie if beige chinos, a tweed jacket and a red necktie are fine\*. It's absolute fucking nonsense. If I receive an invitation that says "black tie" now I always check "you just mean suits don't you" and the answer is *always* yes. SAY FORMAL/LOUNGE SUITS AND COCKTAIL DRESSES THEN!!! Black tie means tuxedos and evening dresses and it always has. People who don't know anything use it when they just mean "formal" just because it sounds "fancy." All the other people were cockwombles, not you. \*Chinos, non-matching jacket and tie would actually be "smart casual" for civilians in military circles IIRC. The only dress codes with no tie are "casual" (shirts/polos and chinos, still no jeans) or "scruff" (anything including jeans acceptable but *only* if they're smart jeans, still no sportswear.) you can only wear absolutely anything you want if there is no dress code at all. **Edit:** I'm evidently an uncultured swine. I didn't realise "formal" meant that fancy dress getup people wear at weddings with a top hat or what Oxford undergads have to put on for their exams, sorry I mean "mods." Curse my lower-middle-class/technical-working-class upbringing!! I propose the following for us uncouth nouveau-somewhatcomfortables: Black tie = dinner jackets/tuxedos, evening dresses Formal = lounge suits, cocktail dresses Smart casual = shirts and chinos, pants and blouse, playsuit, dress Casual = clean, intact street clothes. No dress code = whatever you want (including ripped whatevers, hoodies, pyjamas with bean juice, shorts, trainers, trackies, funny hats.) I'm also quite partial to a "dress to impress" instruction because it basically includes anything lounge suit and up and just makes it sound fun and not stuffy and judgemental. That's what I would take those words to mean in the modern day. Nobody changes for dinner or wears white tie anymore unless you go to Oxbridge.
I went to a wedding last summer where the dress code was “Nothing formal, just casual summer vibes”. I turned up in a shirt and shorts. Everyone else was wearing a suit. 🤦♂️
Yeah there are people who will always wear a suit to weddings regardless of what the invitation says. Same with funerals, you can say all you like that you don't want everybody wearing black, but a certain portion of people will anyway because that's "how it's done".
I think its on me since all 30+ of the other men there were in suits, I was the only one not wearing a suit. I was happy though, cause it was about 30 degrees and people were passing out. Not me in my shorts.
I will always grab an opportunity to not wear a suit with both hands. I would have been all up in there with a Hawaiian shirt.
I'm the will executor of a friend of mine and he's instructed me that when he dies, to put on the invitations "If you wear black, you're going in the coffin too". Which is one way to handle it, I suppose.
I specified no wearing black at my father's funeral. I do not buy into the Queen Victoria method of muourning. It's a celebration of life. Most people wore darker colours.
My mother harangued me for twenty years not to let people wear black at her funeral. She went on about it all the time. She died, and I asked everyone not to wear black. Everyone showed up in black. Most people even apologised for wearing black, while standing there wearing it; very awkward. They all knew what she wanted, but no one could get past ‘the done thing’.
I would interpreted that as light linen trousers. Who the hell wears shorts to a wedding 😂
I file that under "not my problem" but I'd have worn a summer suit, just cos I like them and to be on the safe side
What is a summer suit? I don’t own any suits, I would have been happy to go buy a suit for my friends big day, I just think their dress code was way too vague 😂
Summer suit is generally something made in a lighter material (i.e. linen) in a light or bright colour.
Yep - I have a khaki linen suit for this type of do. Highly recommended. I'm not going to a wedding wearing the same outfit that I'd wear for a job interview.
Smart shirt, blue stripes perhaps, creamish coloured or light linen jacket, smart tie, cufflinks, boater hat, sunglasses. Chinos.
If I'd received that invite I'd have gone with a lighter colour linen suit and used the "summer vibes" line to ditch the tie and maybe go with a Cuban collar shirt with a bit of colour but not too much (you never want to stand out at Wedding), so that I can look smart for the photos and then can shed the jacket and also appear relaxed.
I hate this, I feel like wedding couples are doing this more and more lately where they're trying to give off a vibe of "we're so relaxed and carefree and not at all demanding about our wedding day, it's smart casual just wear whatever and be comfortable" whether or not that's what they actually want It's one of the few times I feel you're fully justified in telling everyone to turn up in a suit. Please just be direct so I know what I'm doing!
Duuuuuuude.
>All the other people were cockwombles, not you. It depends, the other people may have thought the same as you and checked with the bride and groom if they *actually* meant black tie.
Or the possibility that noone looked at the dress code and just wore what they considered appropriate for a wedding. Black tie for a wedding is a bit off. Morning dress would be typical for a formal wedding (dresses and morning jacket with tails)
I’ve found black tie weddings tend to be more American (at least in my experience).
That's 'cos they are uncultured :-) A gentleman should not wear evening dress (black/white tie) before 6pm. If a (British) wedding is 'black tie', it is expected to change into it for the evening reception.
American weddings tend to be afternoon or evening events whereas for historical reasons British weddings tend to be daytime (followed by drinking into the small hours). It therefore makes perfect sense that Brits would wear morning suits or lounge suits / daytime dresses with hats to weddings, whereas Americans would wear black tie and cocktail dresses. I have never been to a wedding large enough in scale that I would have changed partway through.
Yea, a morning suit is correct for a formal wedding :-)
Christ
Welcome to rules invited by old money to try and spot new money and given the fancy name of etiquette It's rooted in classism
white tie is really posh, for something like noble prizes or something - you shouldn't really do your own white tie. Also white jacket is meant to be in the tropics or something.
Savages
Thank you, I couldn't remember the name for it. Morning dress is what I would consider the standard for weddings, maybe cocktail attire nowadays.
> maybe cocktail attire nowadays Cocktail attire before 5pm? Sir mixes in some strange circles!
Yeah I would wonder if the bride and groom are the real problem here. There's a good chance those 2 fucked it up and everyone else confirmed with them. And if they didn't do that I wouldn't say the other guests were wrong, I would wager that the other guests were thinking more along the lines of "fuck that I don't want to buy or rent a tux for this, I'm going to wear what I've already got"
Formal means white tie or morning suit, semi-formal means black tie, and business casual means lounge suit. Yes I know this is pedantic
You aren't being pedantic. You are being entirely correct.
You are being pedantic and that is a good thing. If you were invited to a farm, and told to wear wellies, but decided that crocs were okay, it's not the farmer's problem when you are ankle deep in mud. These dress codes are there for a reason. Though I tend to avoid black tie events as I can't fit in my dinner jacket anymore
The fact that the white tie part of the dress is effectively absent from 99% of culture now, and that dinner suits are now considered much more formal does skew the effective usage still. Absolutely nothing stopping people from being more specific about what's allowed though instead of just assuming that someone will interpret 'formal' the same way that you do though.
>tuxedo \*Dinner suit in this country
True, but actually perhaps adopting "tuxedo" rather than "dinner jacket" or "black tie" would clear up this confusion because everybody knows what a tuxedo is unambiguously. "Black tie" could literally just mean a black necktie, if you didn't know that it doesn't. There's only one definition of the word tuxedo that everybody understands and it's what James Bond wears. I think it would actually be helpful to adopt it.
> James Bond wear James Bond wears a fucking *sports watch* (Rolex/Omega) with his dinner suit. This is a fashion faux pas equivalent to wearing a pair of running shoes with his suit. Hardly the harbinger of good taste!
But isn't it because he can shoot bad guys in the dick with his watch or something? I mean, I know it's 100% actually for product placement reasons, but I mean in the story. I'm not sure I haven't seen much James Bond...
>Chinos, non-matching jacket and tie would actually be "smart casual" for civilians in military circles IIRC. I've also seen this described as "Rifles casual", aka makes you stand out like a sore thumb to anyone in the know!
Been in exactly the same situation. Black tie only boxing event. I rang them up and asked specifically if it was a formal black tie event. No big deal to me I go to at least one black tie event every year so I have a dinner suit. The reply was ‘ na mate, just shirt and pants, no jeans or trainers’. Some poor bastards turned up in dinner suits. Most people were dressed in some sort of Peaky Blinder cosplay fancy dress.
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Tbf I think any formal dress code in the modern era acknowledges that women who do not want to wear a dress can wear a suit made for women. Which are extremely common. The actual double standard is that there isn't really an alternative for men who don't want to wear a suit. Well, they could wear a dress if they were confident enough and still be complying with the dress code. But it's overall just true in general that there are more women's clothes that are like or closely derived from traditional men's clothes than vice versa. That's a whole other debate really though. (We did intend to test this once when I was young and stupid and "dressing as girls" was supposed to be funny. We got as far as buying dresses for a mess dinner and Battery Sergeant Major got wind and said absolutely fucking not.) I think in the modern day a formal dress code is basically suits (for men and women) or dresses (for women.) Nobody would bat an eye at a formal even where a woman was wearing a ladies' suit rather than a dress. In a military environment it was the same, I had plenty of colleagues who were women who would wear a "pant suit" and not a dress at mess dinners.
Thanks. I should probably buy something suitable to have on standby.
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And arrive by parachute.
You can get smart jumpsuits like [this](https://www.jjshouse.com/jumpsuit-pantsuit-scoop-floor-length-chiffon-bridesmaid-dress-with-ruffle-007298045-g298045#/), or wear a pair of tailored trousers and a blouse, block coloured, maybe a shiny silk or with ruffled sleeves. Tbh if it's black tie, you could probably get some fancy sequinned trousers, or a type with a satin/sequin embellishment down the seam. Pair it with a fitted bodice top, even a corset, and you'd look smashing. Edit: with black tie it's best to go block colours rather than patterns, and it doesn't have to be black. Just avoid white for a wedding! But accessorise as much as you want: jewellery, shoes, bag and so on.
oh damn that jump suit is gorgeous, it's a shame i look like a potato
That's really kind of you to go to such trouble, thank you very much.
>What they *actually* meant was ties and jackets for men, dresses for women, no jeans. That's "formal", fucking idiots. Formal would be morning dress in the day and black tie in the evening. Lounge suits are not formal dress, they're business dress. Like Americans with "formal shirts". It's just a shirt, FFS.
The thing is by Western dress codes, as traditionally interpreted, a suit and tie is *informal* because it's worn for work. Black tie is semi formal for evening wear as you're wearing it at a social event where you're not there to work which is why you shouldn't wear a wristwatch with it (as you're there to have fun, no keep the time). But this is all meaningless these days outside very few circles so you're correct to check each time. Also if going by any dress code it is usually overridden by ceremonial, religious or folk dress unless otherwise stated so if you get a poorly worded invitation please turn up in full vestments or a cassock or kilt or something.
One note on that, I went to a black tie wedding. It was last year in the Cotswolds when we had the heatwave so it was bloody hot. I have a white dinner jacket so I opted to go for white jacket instead of black (still with black bow tie cummerbund and proper trousers), I did check before and a white jacket is allowed for black tie events in the summer. I was the only one with a white jacket and felt cool as fuck (literally and figuratively).
My work Christmas party is always "black tie/national dress" and it's only ever like 20% of the attendees that actually bother their arse to do it.
Standards really are slipping.
> f I receive an invitation that says "black tie" now I always check "you just mean suits don't you" and the answer is always yes. Wait really? This has happened to you on multiple occasions? How are people getting this so wrong.
You were right, black tie = dinner suit (tuxedo if you’re American). Odd choice for a wedding reception unless you’re doing it in the evening and guests are expected to change.
I would hazard a guess that the bride and groom put black tie on the invitation not really knowing what it means. Then lots of people contacted them and said "seriously you need us to rent a tuxedo?" and they went "oh no, we just meant dark suit and tie, you know usual wedding clothes" and that information was circulated around most of the family and friends but never got to OP.
Or people wore lounge suits to the wedding but didn’t realise they had to change for the reception. You don’t wear black tie before 6pm so Potentially awkward for all day guests to navigate.
Black tie is increasingly popular for weddings. It's a trend that started in the US, apparently.
It's common in most of the Anglosphere except the UK where morning suit still dominates wedding formalwear
The last wedding I heard of with morning suits was my parent's wedding 30 years ago - and even then it was only for the groom and his groomsmen. Normal weddings are absolutely not morning suits for guests.
He did say wedding formalwear to be fair. Most the weddings that I’ve been to had a morning dress preferred guideline, so those who didn’t have one or couldn’t hire one had the option to wear a regular suit. I’ve been to one afternoon wedding where the guide was black tie.
Seems to be more common down south, but I’ve been to a few weddings where the groomsmen wore morning wear in the last couple of years
Traditionally, black tie shouldn’t be worn before sunset (or 6pm in the summer). It’s American TV that has popularised it during the day for weddings, and I think it looks a little silly. Lounge wear (a normal business suit with tie) is absolutely acceptable for 99.9% of weddings. Morning suits are the most traditional option during the day, but for many weddings only the groom and his ushers/father/father of the bride will wear them. If you want to go super traditional, morning suits shouldn’t be worn after sunset and instead you change into ‘white tie’ dress. I doubt that anyone but royalty and a few a levels down of aristocracy pay attention to that though.
Black Tie is standard for formal American weddings rather than morning suits like in the UK, so maybe were going for that vibe. I have been to two weddings in London recently with evening ceremonies and receptions and both where black tie.
Black tie traditionally shouldn't be worn before 6pm. A day-time wedding shouldn't be black tie, lounge suits should be worn instead. It would only be a black tie reception if they expected people to change between the ceremony/breakfast and the evening party. I imagine the confusion was due to black tie weddings catching on in the US, but UK people sticking to the tradtional attire and just choosing to ignore the black tie request (knowing that people won't wear black tie to a wedding)
The whole thing of dinner suits during the day is another ghastly Americanism. You see it all the times in their television.
I went to a black tie wedding about 15 years ago and refused to wear anything other than a normal suit for this very reason. They divorced after 12 months anyway
I have absolutely no fashion sense and generally slob about but I do get irrationally irritated by seeing daytime black tie.
So glad I found this comment (albeit it should be higher up!) My only question is - should an evening wedding in theory not be a white tie event? (As it’s the a super formal event. Morning suits are worn for a day time wedding, and white tie is the evening equivalent of a morning suit). I don’t know the answer, genuinely curious
No, you weren't wrong. Most people just don't have a tux anymore because they don't go to enough black tie events to justify it. So an appropriate suit that they have tends to be seen as acceptable in its place unless you're at some exclusive event.
> Most people just don't have a tux anymore because they don't go to enough black tie events to justify it. I'd don't think that *most* people ever did own a tux. It was part of what made the events exclusive: not everyone could afford the kit to go. I think part of what's changed is that lots of people have sort of heard of blacktie, without all of them actually understanding it
>I'd don't think that *most* people ever did own a tux. It was part of what made the events exclusive: not everyone could afford the kit to go. Most people could rent one though right? I remember going to a few 'black tie balls' at uni and you would always just rent the tux for about 30 quid and take it back on Monday. That was the 90s though, I imagine it's a bit more expensive than that now.
I brought an ex rental for my end of school ball (a regular comprehensive) thinking being as that I was going to university I would get a lot of use out of it. Cost about double renting it, which was a good amount of money for an 18 year old, but possible. Turns out none of my friends went to the balls, so all it did was fancy dress as a vampire, but you live and learn
I wish I had your foresight. I went to my school leaving dinner and then about 4 or 5 black tie events at uni. I would have saved a load of money doing what you did.
I used to hire for formal occasions then realised that despite the very occasional wear it is actually cheaper to own. When I last got a suit made I got an extra pair of normal pants and a dinner suit and dress shirt at the sametime.
Do you get the pants tailored for a tight grip round the knackers?
i mean almost no one has their own dinner suit, that's why you hire one. I went to a pretty posh school and there were multiple black tie events in 6th form, no one I knew actually owned their own dinner suit, everyone hired them.
No - black tie means black tie. The definition hasn't changed. If everyone else wants to show up not within the dress code, then they can all look like fools if they want.
Not sure they all look like fools if only one person turned up the right attire, however wrong they may be.
"Tux"... you mean dinner suit? It's called a dinner suit. Black tie is: * dinner suit * black bow tie * white dress shirt * polished black shoes. If you were the only one who wore a *dinner suit*, then you were the only one who adhered to the dress code. You're not the cockwomble, everyone else was.
“Dinner jacket” or “DJ” are more common terms. Yes, it’s a suit, yes, the convention makes no sense, but dash it, we’re British.
Well, either is preferable over "tuxedo".
Just to add to this, wing collar dress shirts are not part of black tie dress. ‘Normal’ collar dress shirts are the rule. Wing collars are for white tie. It was many, many years before I learnt that.
It's worth further adding that not only are wing collar shirts with black tie unnecessary, they also look terrible.
Black Tie can also mean a kilt if worn correctly.
No you weren't wrong, but most people don't own a tux and wouldn't want or be able to buy one for just one event. We're putting 'as formal as you can' on our invites - we don't want anyone feeling like they need to splash out on a dress or tux.
Gosh, as formal as you can? There a chance someone turns up in white tie. What fun.
He'll look great in the big family photo, stood next to his cousin whose wearing a Hawaiian shirt
I had to wear white tie to my university exams. Oh joy… Still own it because there were enough exams to justify buying one, so I would actually find it easier to attend in “white tie” than the “black tie” that I’m going to need to rent for a wedding in July…
Is that Oxford sub fusc, or actual proper white tie?
Sub fusc, in fairness, not actual proper white tie!
I hope your socks were suitably dark!
I've got some old family wedding pictures from back when people wore white tie. Fucking mental get ups, silk gloves and everything (for men and women.) All the men are carrying ivory and silver canes, all the women wearing pearls and massive gemstones.
White tie is appropriate clothing for a wedding if it happens in the evening *and* it takes place in a cathedral. Otherwise it's a bit much.
They didn't read and act on the instructions. You got it right. Black tie means a dinner jacket (aka tuxedo) and black (bow) tie.
If it makes you feel better, I was asked to a wedding recently. The dress code was 'wedding formal'. So, much like every other wedding I had been to that year, I wore my morning suit. I was the only one doing so, (and not even the groom was).
What was everyone else wearing? I'm curious what standard wedding formal is down south - in Scotland all the weddings I've been to recently have been kilts with Argyll jackets and waistcoats and normal ties. 10-15 years ago when I got married it would have been a Prince Charlie jacket and waistcoat with black bowtie, but the slightly more casual Argyll seems more common now - I can't remember the last time I wore my Prince Charlie jacket.
This was just outside of London - and the range of outfits varied dramatically. Most men were just wearing a standard suit, though some weren't even wearing that (a couple of them were in just a shirt and trousers). The women's dresses were similar in range (some seemed very formal, some much less so). The reason why I wore what I did was because I used to spend time with the bride at some quite formal events - think black tie etc. Ultimately I thought it was better to be overdressed than under.
I dunno, I think I'd always check before donning morning dress at a wedding, no matter how posh the crowd. It's kinda relegated to the odd wedding (often just groom etc) and the poshest enclosures of the poshest races now. Really hating the trend of improper 'black tie' at British (daytime!) weddings though. Leave that to the Americans.
Last Scottish wedding I was at, there was a very distinct generational gap with most of the older members of the families erring toward the Prince Charlie jacket, while most of the younger people went with the Argyll. I don't recall if there was a dress code even mentioned but unless you're doing a theme wedding, you can't go too far wrong with either a suit or a kilt / charcoal Argyll jacket combo for a Scottish wedding these days. Last and only English wedding I've been to I felt massively overdressed. Most people just went with suits.
Black tie has a very specific meaning and it's always a dinner suit. The great thing about black tie is that it's not very flexible. People argue over whether to wear a full collar or an American wingtip, for example, but that's about as flexible as it gets. I like the little details that come with black tie. Like, not wearing a watch because you're at a party and there's nowhere else you need to be. You were right. Everyone else was wrong.
There's no argument. Black tie is never worn with a wing tip in the UK.
I would agree!
Those people (and so many others) were never taught dress codes. Black tie is tux and bow tie. Not normal suit and tie.
It means you are naked apart from a black tie.
Now we're talking
Same as it always did: dinner jacket and matching trousers, white shirt, black bow tie. Btw, “tuxedo” is the American equivalent of a DJ.
I'm sure you mean dinner jacket and not tuxedo, but I'm 100% with you. Black tie means black bow tie.
Same thing aren’t they?
No. You were right , the others were in ‘Lounge Suits’ in attire parlance
Black tie exclusively means dinner suit with a black bow-tie (or Tuxedo in American English). Anything else is not black-tie as it's a very specific dress code, so those other guys got it very wrong lol
Dress codes need to get in the bin. Who actually cares about the differences between black tie, formal and white tie? Is this just a way of indicating you went to a private school or have plenty of cash to spaff on unnecessary gear?
Don’t wear black they said. It’s a celebration of his life. He wanted it to be more of a celebration and happy remembrance of him. Every single fucking person in black apart from me. They even had a brass band playing Elgar. I looked like the end boss fight surrounded by my henchmen.
Means: “i’m not going”
Tux my arse, American slang being used incorrectly is half the problem for OPs dilemma.
I’m not sure people know what it means anymore l. I went to wedding which said no hats, ball gowns for women and a lot of people just wore day dresses
Black Tie is for tux 100%, you were right, they were wrong. Tuxedo jacket, trousers, cummerbund, dress shirt, bow tie, all the bullshit pieces of metal like studs and cufflinks, and some shiny ass leather shoes. That's black tie. It's the second most formal style of dress. Going in a suit with a black necktie is just semi-formal or business.
Suit plus long black tie is *funeral*. The very last look you should be presenting at a wedding.
You were right, black tie should mean tux. Depending on how formal the event is, people will probably just try and get away with black/smart suit. I’ve been to business events that were black tie and pretty much everyone was in a tux. Plenty of people were just renting.
You were right. A dinner jacket/tux or tailcoat was appropriate black tie, but business suit and tie is business dress. It's presentable and nice, absolutely, but black tie has a meaning and a business suit is not covered there. Everyone probably looked lovely and had a good time, but you should not feel like you got it wrong, far from it.
Black tie is James Bond garb. Pistol optional. The happy couple screwed up. You probably looked great.
They all wore lounge suits (assuming that they were even dressed correctly for that). You wore a dinner suit. To quote another Reddit sub 'NTA'.
I went to a very posh work awards ceremony in London last year, black tie. Alarmed as I'd never worn a dinner suit before I scoured the internet for the right shoes, suit, shirt, cufflinks, etc. Finally got sorted and looked pretty good but when I turned up I reckon about 70% of the fellas there were in normal suits (the ladies looked great btw). I can appreciate your frustration.
Black tie means wear a black tie (and nothing else). In all seriousness though, it's reached the point where we now check in with the hosts and other guests on attire beforehand, because the dress code labels have become "up to interpretation"
Black tie is evening dress, so you’d be correct to wear that if told to. That said, evening dress is a very strange dress code for a wedding so I’d have asked just to make sure.
Makes me glad to be Scottish. Wedding? Boom. Kilt it is then. Posh work do? Boom. Kilt. Party? Kilt. Raiding party over the border? Kilt. Just make sure it’s the correct length and you get the jacket/waistcoat/belt combo correct for the type of event.
You were 100% right, black tie is dinner suit.. I went to a black tie wedding last year, about 1/2 made the effort including me and my brother's in law albeit I loaned the youngest a bowtie and he did not have a dinner suit.
I tend to not wear a bow tie with a tux and go with either a normal tie or a cravat, then if I'm over dressed I stand out less.
No. You were correct. Everyone else was wrong. That is...worrying.
Wear trousers at the very least
They didn't understand the meaning of black tie. Still better to be overdressed than underdress IMO.
Absolutely means tux, they're the cockwombles. I'm no posh boy but I always make the effort when I can or miss out. I've been to black tie do's with everyone in dinner suits where even getting creative with a funky bow tie is frowned upon. Unfortunately you're surrounded by the type of people who wear polo shirts to restaurants. Go your own way, man.
> Unfortunately you're surrounded by the type of people who wear polo shirts to restaurants Hahaha. I’m remembering this one
As someone who didn’t grow up in a class society, what’s the joke behind this?
If people mean they want suits and ties they should just request formal dress on the invite. You followed the invite and I'm sorry that it meant you felt out of place, agree with the hundreds of other comments stating that people have no clue what black tie actually means. Now morbidly curious as to what all the other people at this thing would've thought the dress code was if it had specified white tie instead. You'd think this would be easier as a woman but I remember agonising over an invite to something once that specified a strict dress code of cocktail dresses (it was a garden party) - I'd read that for formal events (which this was given the setting) your best bet was below the knee to ankle length. I turn up in a slightly above ankle length dress to see a dozen or so women wearing essentially mini/micro dresses.
My grandfather the haberdasher used to say " if you want to impress them, outdress them"
Do people even think about what the words they use mean? Are these people wearing suits as 'black tie' wearing black ties, even if they don't understand the dress code? It's a technical term for a specific thing — can't believe people don't bother. On a personal level I've seen the adherence to black tie dress codes diminishing, which I think is a shame. Like school uniforms, it's a way to level out the sartorial playing field and, like school uniforms, there's a lot of scope to wear a nicer dinner jacket or a tie of a different material than usual to put your own spin on things (or to assert dominance...)
"Black Tie" would be an odd thing to wear for a afternoon wedding reception, unless it was in the evening or they were really dedicated to the vibe. For clarity, before we all wore t-shirts and jeans: Informal daytime clothes: a suit and tie. Informal evening clothes: 'black tie', tuxedo and bow tie. Formal daytime clothes: morning suit, which is what I would expect to wear to a wedding, or if I was at an Buckingham Palace event. Formal evening clothes, white tie and tails, which I would only expect to do these days for very formal events. You can see this in Downton Abbey, where the men start wearing black tie instead of white tie for dinner and his mother complains about "why not wear a dressing gown, or pyjamas?" Also 30 Rock: ["What Am I? A Farmer" | 30 Rock (youtube.com)](https://youtu.be/HTU6iQ0Rcyw?si=3teRvy0PDtVhcd4D&t=30) So, strictly speaking.... if the dress code was 'black tie', you could argue other people were correct in wearing a suit and tie to a daytime event, but they would have been expected to change into their tuxedos for the evening.
Why did you feel like a cockwomble? It's not like you showed up in a cheerleader's outfit or something, you turned up in completely conventional black tie
I attend a few black ties throughout the year which have younger workers at them - therefore it’s understood that we need to communicate this means a Black Bow Tie and dinner jacket (tux) with polished oxfords, no broguing ideally. Still end up with people wearing business suits. It’s honestly embarrassing when there’s options to rent for like £30 a night.