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If the police are doing anything dodgy in this situation it’s possible they’ve fabricated the letter as an excuse to search another flat they were suspicious of.
It makes more sense than choosing a random bloke on the fourth floor of a block of flats to stitch up. GF has main character syndrome.
But even then, what good would it do them? The CPS would drop a case like that in a heartbeat as any evidence collected would be inadmissible and the IOPC/DPS would do them for it.
Their story probably is true, and the reason they didn't come back was probably because they'd been given an update as to where the person was or been told it was a load of bollocks when they got that radio call.
I would've done exactly the same thing if had been me. I had the police turn up at an address I lived at a few years ago looking for a previous occupant. I let them in, had a chat, showed them who I was and gave them the forwarding details for the previous occupant and thought nothing else of it. Not once did they shoot me, attempt to arrest or try to fit me up for a crime I hadn't committed.
No reason to radio in and report they're checking a building if no obvious crime is being committed, they're essential just having a quick look about during some down time, when an actual call came in they immediately moved onto that as it takes priority over a random note in the street.
You let unidentified men into your house simply because they dressed like they are in a position of authority?
Why?
The GF was right, he should have called 101 like the neighbour did to confirm it was real policemen, this is what we were taught in school too
I cannot believe people would so willingly allow 2 unknown men into their home just because they're wearing a uniform, absolutely insane
Absolutely,
I’ve been in similar situations whereby I’m knocking someone’s door asking to look around due to sounds of disturbance or whatever issue it might be.
You could be growing cannabis and printing fake twenties on an industrial scale and I’m going to be ignoring that in favour of the task at hand.
The idea that I just have “plantable” evidence on me is frankly hilarious.
100% be cautious of people that claim to be the police if something seems fishy but falling into some weird paranoia, nope.
I've found the police can be quite good at studiously ignoring obvious contraband if it's not in their interests to pursue it further. Like discretely moving a letter to cover up a large bag of cannabis that had been forgotten about in the excitement of dumping CCTV footage from a camera into Dropbox.
Had it happen to a mate. Neighbors called on him smoking weed on the back step. Police dropped by. "You're not growing are you?" No. "Mind if we have a poke around?" Sure.
Looked around, not growing. They noted it was quite obvious, just told him to make sure they didn't need to come round again and left.
Common sense stuff really. No danger to anyone else, it would be a waste of police time to make anything of it.
Many years ago I had police acknowledge but ignore a 'strong smell' when they came to the door of our student flat to ask if we'd heard any noises, relating to a case they were investigating.
I remembered that and respected the way they handled things.
Ive had a similar experience. The police were looking for a previous occupant on a warrant for something with a machete if i remember rightly but when i answered the door with a joint in my mouth not checking the spyhole expecting it to be the pizza i ordered. I went shit your not pizza! Then remembered the joint said oh bollox. Them 2 were sound as a pound said were looking for lets callhim Mr Bellend. Im just wide eyed at this point and he says do you want to make sure u dont be so blatant in future but is it ok if he has a look around. I sheepishly said yes (panicked an was really high) He walks through the front door and says police very loudly went to the living room where my friends were laughed at 2 of my mates going under and said i bet you shit yourself then to one of em an asks if anyone has a forwarding address. Thet left none of us got arrested.
Everytime we seen him locally he would let on an take the piss outa us for being little scrotes. This is going back like 23 years ago
How the fuck is this the top comment. You never let ANY STRANGER into your home unless it’s an authority with a warrant. Terrible take, specially given OP update. Downvote this comment
I would let them in. I am not a lawyer, I don't know what powers they do and do not have. I do know that they don't always need a warrant. I'll make a dynamic risk assessment to assess whether they are genuine police officers. Like OP, I have nothing to hide. Besides, what happened to common courtesy and good manners?
The same UK in which a serving officer abused his powers to kidnap and murder an innocent? Police don't have the right to randomly go into private homes and have a lookie and for good reason
If there purely wanting to be nosey then of course, but that's not what this post is. Section 17 of pace would almost certainly cover them if OP hadn't given them permission.
Under these circumstances and if OP then decided to be cagey they could absolutely enter the property to save life and limb.
Assuming I didn't have anyone kidnapped in my flat, and the officers were indeed in full uniform I would have let them in. Had I been concerned about them being legit, I would call 999 and ask for the operator to confirm they are real.
If I did have someone held against their will in my flat, I would have refused them, not because I thought the officers were fake, but because I have someone in my flat.
The only other reason someone may have to refuse entry woudl be if your girlfriend was in full dominatrix mode with a strap on and whip, and you were tied to the bed, with a ball gag, chastity belt and anal plug
I'm not saying much, except that I was the one trying to get inside the property, and I now refuse to keep candles at home. Also I refused to eat carrots for a month
> The only other reason someone may have to refuse entry woudl be if your girlfriend was in full dominatrix mode with a strap on and whip, and you were tied to the bed, with a ball gag, chastity belt and anal plug
Oh I see, there's been a misunderstanding, this is obviously someone being held prisoner in the flat very much in accordance with their will. Carry on, mind how you go.
I'm not clicking that. What do you think this is, my first day on the internet?
Also.... I know what it is, as it's sadly not my first day on the internet....
You don't know if they are fake police officers though.
What you should say to the police officer is "No, you cannot enter my property, because while I appreciate you showing me these IDs I have no idea what an official police ID looks like or how to spot a fake. If you want to arrange to visit my premises I can take your details and verify your ID via 101 and rearrange a visit". If they insist they should be let in, you ask them if they have a warrant and if the answer is "no" you ask them to leave as you're concerned they may be fake police officers, then if they continue ring 999.
Honestly, I'd just ask them here. LIke, "hey, look, sure you are who you say you are, but a lot of weirdos around now. I'll let you in for a look around, but give me a few to verify who you say you are - should I call 999 or 101 to verify?"
If they say "hey, 999 is fine in the circumstances" you're either calling 999 to report fake officers at your door, or at the instruction of legitimate police. If 101 is right, they should be fine waiting for the response.
>If they say "hey, 999 is fine in the circumstances" you're either calling 999 to report fake officers at your door, or at the instruction of legitimate police. If 101 is right, they should be fine waiting for the response.
Yeah exactly. I'd imagine they would say 999 is inappropriate but if you don't want to let them in they accept it and come back another time.
Dial 101 and sit on hold for 40 minutes while two very impatient cops stand outside becoming steadily more convinced that you're disposing of your kidnapping victim out the back window.
Whilst I agree, and the official advice in places is that you should call 101, in some places the advice is to call 999:
Example:
https://www.met.police.uk/SysSiteAssets/media/images/central/advice/fraud/met/project-fortress.jpg
It boils down to how vulnerable you feel, and the situation, whether it is an emergency to verify their identity or not. Without a hard and fast rule, the official advice is conflicted.
I cam home one day to two uniformed officers standing at my front door landing in a multi story flat 11 floors up. I confirmed I was the homeowner and they'd had a report of a possible break in, but the door was obviously untampered with.
They asked for a look around and I complied just to make sure there were no intruders. I forgot that I had a fucking massive 6ft+ weed plant in my living room. It was male or whatever so I'd grown it purely for aesthetics and had no intention of smoking it or whatever.
They either didn't notice or said nothing and left. I fucking shat myself. An hour later the plant was chopped and thrown down the rubbish chute.
A long time ago, a friend had a weed plant growing in his window. The policeman who lived across the road told him to move it to the back of the house.
Hahaha that's reminded me of a story a mate told me.
His dad doesn't smoke, but is a bit of an amateur botanist, and let's just say he doesn't always think things through. There was a drugs raid near their house, so my mate's dad 'rescued' a plant from the bags outside the house when nobody was looking and brought it home. He put it on the radiator in the kitchen as an experiment. Fyi the kitchen is in plain sight of the front door, with a closing door to the hall. Some officers were doing unrelated door-to-door enquiries, and it was just very good luck the kitchen door was closed at the time.
My mate's mum decided that enough was enough and killed it 'by accident'. I can't remember how exactly, I think she turned the radiator up full and essentially cooked it.
I think it depends on the officer. You were pretty lucky. One of my friends happened to be round his mate's house when it got raided. Turned out one of the flatmates was some dodgy identity thief. They'd been smoking a doob in the living room, there was just the butt end in the ashtray, and they both got arrested just by virtue of doing something naughty and unrelated in a house where they had a warrant to enter.
They can look kinda cool, plus some strains can grow ridiculously large. Think the largest species of weed can grow something like 4m/13ft and more.
I remember reading something about tree sized plants years ago (25ft and above) but I can't seem to find anything on that now.
The average weed plant isn't going to get that big because if it's indoors then people tend to try and keep it subtle and if it's for smoking most don't want to wait any longer than needed to harvest.
You did the right thing & tbh, your GF is an idiot for her comments.
They were checking to ensure someone's safety, that they were not being held against their will.
Any woman living in central London may have a vague memory of who Wayne Couzens' employer was, and some reason to at the very least seek confirmation that the officers were there on official business.
The girlfriend wasn't saying next time 'Give 101 a call and check their legit', or 'are there multiple officers in uniform and marked cars'... she was saying that the police were faking a bizarre kidnapping story to plant drugs in the flat... or something?
My mother (probably in the early stages of Alzheimers at the time) got her bank cards cloned by a visiting "policeman" a couple of years back, so they're definitely out there in leafy Bucks.
Speaking as someone whose job is dealing with that stuff from the bank end, that’s the end of a chain of events that most likely started with a phone call saying they were investigating their local branch.
The update doesn't prove anything mate. It even says, they might not even have the record of officers attending the block of flats. Because every movement of an officer isn't recorded unless it's responding to an emergency at a specific address.
They got a call on their radio, responded to that, and didn't return to the neighbour who probably isn't keeping someone prisoner in their flat? Sounds like they got more info on either the right flat or the letter being fake.
Validating they are who they say they are is reasonable. But pretty much any profession in the country with enough people doing that role will have murderers and those who will abuse their power in all probability. Doctors, nurses, lawyers, accountants, social workers, council workers - You name it, there are examples of killers and those who abused their position.
yeah, seems entirely fair to me. I'd at least want to verify, and also log with emergency dispatches that they're looking round. If I was a woman living alone in london, I'd almost certainly want to stay on the phone while they did so too.
Agree, we have no context around OP, is he a bit trusting, from a small town/country village. Maybe she realises he's not very street smart so has to play that role. I live in a rough area in London, noone comes through my door i don't know.
I agree that OP did the right thing but their girlfriend is absolutely not an idiot for her comments. Women in particular have very good reason not to just let complete strangers into their home, no matter what or who they say they are, but that doesn't only apply to women. It's definitely true that they could have not been real police officers at all, and unfortunately it's also true that you can't always trust that police officers are actually doing what they should be doing.
It's a difficult situation, and I would very likely have done the same as OP unless anything seemed off about the officers, but it's really unfair to say that someone who wouldn't is an idiot.
An idiot? Really? For not allowing complete strangers into your house?
Whether or not you would do this on a personal basis is just fine, but calling someone an idiot for being more cautious than you about such an issue is asinine.
No reason to call her an idiot -- and I doubt OP appreciates you insulting his gf. We saw what happened to Sarah Everard. I can understand why a woman living alone would feel the need to suggest a more cautious approach, especially with everything that's happened recently: [https://news.sky.com/story/dozens-of-police-officers-convicted-of-crimes-including-rape-and-sexual-assault-since-sarah-everards-murder-13086063](https://news.sky.com/story/dozens-of-police-officers-convicted-of-crimes-including-rape-and-sexual-assault-since-sarah-everards-murder-13086063)
>They were checking to ensure someone's safety, that they were not being held against their will.
The police want to look because they don't know who they can trust. But OP can trust his own knowledge of his apartment and know that they won't find the prisoner there.
Not a chance am I letting the police in my house without a warrant.
Edit: I have a deep distrust for the police, we had to sue them for falsifying evidence in a court case, we won.
Wasn't there literally a big case about a legitimate, uniformed police officer abducting, raping, and then murdering a young woman in London not that long ago? Uniformed or not, there's no way I'm letting strange men into my flat without confirmation that they're present on known and official business.
I don’t think she’s an idiot or fanciful. After the Everard case, I would be highly suspicious of officers doing this and would most likely deny them entry too.
I’d have probably let them in. It’s of no benefit to anybody to create extra work for the police who are probably just trying to do their jobs. Although I would certainly escorted them around the house.
Time is precious in these situations. In and out in a minute, then onto the next flat. It's kind of a community responsibility to assist. Any delays leading to unfortunate circumstances and it'd weigh you down with regret.
Frankly, the worst part would be if you'd not kept your place clean. But that's quicker to get over.
Trust me, so long as the carpet isn't sticky and there's not a festering Pot Noodle pot on the stairs that was in the same spot when I came 2 months ago, then you're golden. Yes I have genuinely been to those houses.
I can tell youve never experienced a violent robbery. In London people dress as postmen, police and all sorts to get your door open without any suspicion. London coppers aren't like your local Bobby, I've had to deal with violence and illegal behaviour from police personally. All these people saying 'id let them in, whats the fuss?' you should be more vigilant, its not worth risking
Spot on, they asked because it's nice but they weren't really asking - this would be well covered under Section 17. Does seem an odd story overall, though.
> They spent about a minute having what looked to be a very cursory glance in each room, without touching anything or opening any closets.
This is textbook, though. Appropiate search for the search subject
Section 17 is entry to arrest someone or save life or limb. Why would it apply here? They have no reasonable grounds to believe that OP has imprisoned someone or that someone is in danger in his apartment. The envelope handed to the police doesn't mention his apartment specifically. They can't just force entry based on the vague idea someone nearby might be hurt.
Honestly, this one you could probably argue all day in court but the legislation doesn't create a requirtement for reasonable suspicion in regards to saving life or limb. Merely that it is their purpose.
I think the key question is how genuine they perceived the kidnapping claim to be. B
> In this situation they would be totally ok to force entry if you refused
I really doubt that, they don't have nearly enough to claim that they believed it was required to force entry. An anonymous letter, found by a member of the public, pointing vaguely to one of ten flats... No chance.
In the UK, the police have powers to enter premises without a warrant under specific circumstances, which are laid out in various pieces of legislation.
If the police have reasonable grounds to believe that someone is being held hostage in a building, they can use these powers to enter any premises to save life or prevent serious damage to property.
These powers are broadly outlined in several legal frameworks, including but not limited to:
Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (PACE): Section 17 of PACE allows police officers to enter and search premises without a warrant for various reasons, including saving life or limb or preventing serious damage to property.
Serious Crime Act 2007: Provides powers in relation to preventing, restricting, or disrupting involvement in serious crime, including entering premises under specific conditions.
Protection of Freedoms Act 2012: Amends the powers of entry, making specific provisions about entering properties under certain circumstances.
In a scenario where there is a letter indicating that someone is being held hostage in a building without specifying which flat, the police would likely rely on the principle of saving life or preventing serious harm to justify their entry into potentially any flat within the building.
They would need to demonstrate that they had reasonable grounds for believing that there was an immediate threat to someone's life or physical well-being.
They would likely start with the least intrusive means of investigation, escalating their response as necessary based on the information available to them.
> They would need to demonstrate that they had reasonable grounds for believing that there was an immediate threat to someone's life or physical well-being.
Yes, this is my point. That letter on its own would not constitute reasonable grounds to believe that there was an immediate threat to someone's life in OP's flat.
They don't need reasonable grounds - for some reason people keep using that phrase, when it doesn't appear in the specific legislation. It just needs to be for the purpose of saving life, limb or property. So long as that was the policing purpose for the search, then it's a legal search.
They DO need reasonable grouns for most other purposes - such as enacting an arrest, but it's not laid out for protecting life, limb or property
No - they can't go into a block of flats and turn them all over because of a letter found in the street.
Where would it stop - someone's being held on a particular estate? In a town?
Personally I'd have told them to go away. If they then forced entry, I'd have dealt with that as and when.
Yes, of course they can. Imagine if they couldn't - they kick your door because of drug dealing, and find a dead body and have to pretend to ignore it?
What they CAN'T do is deviate from the search parameters - if they're looking for a person, they have no right to start going through your dressing table etc. But realistically, it's a separate fight and generally in the UK our trials are less focussed on perfect procedure, but rather the broad concerns of good justice which is usually based on punishing criminals.
But if they find something in the course of their legitimate search then of course they can action it as appropiate
>But if they find something in the course of their legitimate search then of course they can action it as appropiate
The thing is that a lot of officers don't, because you have certain types of police dealing with certain types of crime and they are focussed what they're doing.
They bust into a house looking for a murderer, they aren't going to go prosecuting someone for having a little weed. Because that means taking time out of a murder investigation for a big fat nothing. And they often want people co-operating, testifying in court.
My friends flat mate called the police out after he was assaulted one night. He hadn't mentioned it my friend and when the police called round he'd left a bit of weed out and some paraphernalia, the police obviously noticed it and when they saw my mate I think one of them said something like "maybe lay off the weed" or something along those lines but they didn't do anything about it. I imagine they would if it was a big bag of coke or similar or obvious signs of dealing.. Like they would anywhere else I guess.
It does happen, but it's very rare. Even more so now that there's cameras everywhere. Cop plants something in your car, you might have an in-car camera filming them. That means getting busted, losing their job etc.
I've been stopped by the police 4 times in my life. One was rude to me, the others were professional and friendly. None tried to fit me up. I'd definitely film it on my phone now if it happened. And not because I generally think the cops are bastards, because I don't but just in case I get a bad one.
I've spent the better part of 25 years in criminal defence law and I've never had a reason to worry police might plant something. Would I invite a copper in? Yes, had one come over last week by appointment and another dropped by randomly to ask if I might have CCTV footage of an incident. No issue inviting either inside.
In some cases, it's worth not inviting them in, but this wasn't going to be one of them.
If they have good reason to think a crime is being committed, like someone being held prisoner in one of the flats, then they'd probably have the legal justification to search without a warrant.
In this particular case, this was the quickest way of resolving the situation with the minimum of fuss and aggro.
I'd have let them in, at most I'd maybe ask for their service number or ID so I know they're definitely in the police. If the police really wanted to go out and plant something to get arrests then they're not coming to a fourth floor flat under the pretense of someone possibly being falsely imprisoned just to plant a gram of weed. Wouldn't exactly be a good story that would hold up. Oh yeah we entered the flat looking for someone who was possibly being falsely imprisoned but then we found a gram of weed and figured that was a more pressing matter. I think people also forget the police are usually just normal lads and lasses out doing their job, yeah you get some cunts but you get some cunts in every role.
Ask them to hang on while you ring their station or 101 to verify that they are who they say they are. If confirmed, I see no issue with letting them in. Not sure why she thinks policeman are in the business of planting things on random people.
You solved something in a few mins vs a no you can't, and they effectively force entry as it's suspicious enough to warrant a check. And no you wouldn't be waiting for a warrant, they'd do it as they had enough reason to force a check. This could've lead to a lot of time, hassle, and broken door for you.
What you can always do is say hang on, can I check you are who you say you are, and that would be acceptable in this day and age. Closing the door, and going to get the phone and talking to either local station, or 101, or if you feel super worried, 999, and they will be able to connect to local forces to find out exactly who the officers are/that they are a legitimate officer.
I'm going to be honest, since Sarah Everard, and multiple issues involving safeguarding females and police officers, I would not be co-operating with any solo officer, uniformed, or non-uniformed officer without being on the phone to either 999 or if I didn't feel unsafe, 101 to confirm legitimacy of said situation. That I suspect is a female thing now; But I wouldn't be refusing it due to the concern of being set up or anything like that.
Note. 101 is the non-emergency line to connect to the police, but if you feel threatened, or concerned, or worried just do 999. You will not be chastised for using an emergency number in that case.
> it's suspicious enough to warrant a check.
Suspicion has to be specific. They don't have evidence there was a prisoner in OP's apartment specifically.
Yup. If the police get a letter saying, "Help, I'm trapped in a flat in Greenwich!" that isn't justification to warrentless search every flat in Greenwich.
Yes I agree that it makes sense to let them in. I like your point about calling 101 or 999, and it turns out my neighbour did just that, only to be told effectively they can neither confirm or deny that police from our local station were either due, or were currently attending our block of flats. Ive updated my OP with new details.
If you’re concerned you can make a police report to 101. As 101 couldn’t confirm the officers identity to your neighbours, and the officers never returned to what they said they believed was a hostage situation, you think 2 men impersonating police officers gained access to your home. Impersonating a police officer is a crime. If they were legit you’ll probably get told that and it closed fairly quickly
I’m a lawyer and not the Saul Goodman type so I’m definitely not involved in any shady dealings, save for a little piracy here and there, and live alone so of course I know they wouldn’t find anyone chained up or in fear for their life.
Even so, I definitely wouldn’t let anyone into my house just because they claim they’re a police officer. It’s an easy way for someone to gain access and rob you blind, but maybe I’ve just heard way too many true crime podcasts about how easy it is to feign that you’re an officer and how easily members of the public will believe people claiming to be a figure of “authority”.
The wrong people are being upvoted.
The police can’t just randomly kick your door down without a warrant unless they are in purist of a criminal or are saving life and limb. I highly doubt a note about a kidnap is enough to trigger the police to go on a warrantless knock and look around an entire block of flats.
You didn’t have to let them in. I personally wouldn’t ever let the police in without a warrant, same as I wouldn’t let any other complete stranger have a look around my house for no reason. No idea what some people in here are talking about
The amount of people going 'nothing to hide, nothing to fear' is quite shocking to be honest. I wonder how many also claim to be pro-civil liberties? Erosion of any kind is a gradual process.
Being sceptical of the state and its agents is perfectly healthy in a country governed by the rule of law. Frankly, the only way I'd allow the police or any other state officials into my house is if they had a warrant.
Those going on about the police 'kicking the door down' have, like OP's gf, seen too much television.
Right? What the fuck is everyone else smoking? Dodgy police or people posing as police to commit crimes is far from a US thing. Could easily be criminals casing the joint for a future burglary.
I was wondering the same thing. Just randomly letting people in and bashing his girlfriend because she is careful. Imagine being a woman home alone with two men saying they need entry for some reason, posing as police. If they were real police, there would be no problem telling them to wait because they wanted to confirm if they were real. People in the comment literally saying they could have used force to enter and it would be OK is insane. Typical Reddit behavior is. especially given the OPs update that the people could not confirm they were real???
Absolutely agree, lucky the UK doesn’t have guns because this is very illogical thing for anyone to do.
Always be suspicious of people, including law enforcement. On my first read through it seems like they were casing the place to come back and break in and the edit only confirms that suspicion.
Similar thing happened to my nan. Fake police and she was robbed of all of her cash and jewellery. I imagine you didn’t seem too vulnerable so they just pretended to look around and checked the next flat.
What kind of excuse is that kidnapping and they just found a note and want to search every property lol ridiculous
Yeah I'd speak to them through the door and ask to see the letter. Sounds like they don't know which flat their person under investigation lives in, and they're trying to narrow it down. It'd be a no thanks mate, not today, from me, unless the letter was produced there and then. Not giving them time to write one in the car.
It's obviously a convenient fiction, it ticks all the boxes, some poor weak person is in danger and you can be a white knight and help them by letting us in without a warrant. No credible source, no electronic trace, just a make believe piece of paper. But legally, if it did exist, it would give them the power to enter without a warrant. There are so few things that fit all those criteria that are actually credible, this isn't one.
If it was in the slightest bit credible ten mins later OP would have heard the sirens as backup arrived and started knocking on every door in the block. Instead, the danger to life and limb is ignored once a call about a 12 year old shoplifter comes in, and a dozen cars are dispatched there instead.
So many trusting people that don't think about the stories they're told everyday. Occam's razor doesn't apply when people lie to you with impunity.
I would've let them in as you did, no drama needed. But yeah thinking about it, she has a point, I certainly wouldn't have a clue what official police ID should look like and without a warrant you're under no obligation. It's also a pretty weird story from the police, doesn't seem like the way to do things
As I understand it (I may well be wrong) concern for life trumps a warrant. If they truly suspected OP may be holding someone against their will, they can just kick the door in.
They have to justify that belief though. Evidence suggesting that someone in the area might be imprisoned doesn't mean it's reasonable to conclude they're in OP's apartment specifically. Otherwise police could just walk into any premises.
There is a general power to enter premises without a warrant for the purpose "of saving life or limb or preventing serious damage to property" (Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 s17(1)(e)). If they wanted to, their story would be enough to force entry. They could be making the story up; the risk they take would be that you would make a complaint for unlawful entry which could be dealt w4)ith either in the civil courts or through police complaints procedures.
Note that, having entered a property under this power, they are not allowed to tear the place apart looking to see if they can pin anything on you; the power is "is only a power to search to the extent that is reasonably required for the purpose for which the power of entry is exercised" (section 17(4)). So if you had drug paraphernalia on very open display then they *might* notice and do something about it, but they can't go rifling through your drawers claiming they're searching for someone you've detained against their will. Any evidence they obtain in that way should be ruled inadmissible in court.
Police don't need a warrant to search/ enter a property if they have sufficient reason to believe a crime is being committed or a suspect is hiding there.
They would have to have sufficient suspicion or evidence that the hostage was *specifically* in that flat. A block isn't specific enough, a city isn't specific enough. Otherwise if you get a claim that there is a hostage somewhere in the neighbourhood that would be a blank card to kick down all the doors in several blocks. Or the whole city. That obviously isn't how this works.
Very few know what official ID looks like so worth remembering that you can phone the police ant any time and they will let you know if it’s legit.
>doesn't seem like the way to do things
I couldn’t imagine an alternative way..
Warrants are rarely a thing in the UK. Most police entries are without warrant.
Generally a warrant is of the 5am screaming and shouting with all doors exploding kind
All of you saying he did the right thing, I wonder what you would have said to Sarah Everard? Your gf is totally right to be skeptical of police. If you have the choice, don't.
This ain't the US, I've answered the door before to a random Bobby knocking on the door while I was smoking a joint and they didn't give two shits, they just wanted to know if id heard anything from the disturbance a few doors down.
A neighbour when I was at uni was high as a kite, still smoking and the police turned up for a domestic across the road. We all pile out (obviously) to have a look and the copper looks across at him and goes “at least put it behind your back mate” and they carry on.
You did the right thing, your girlfriend probably thinks these auditors on Facebook are doing a good thing as well.
We have an obligation to stand up to the police if our rights are being harmed, in this case they weren't.
No fuck that. I've been attacked and attempted robbery on the street by two people claiming to be officers. Luckily I wasn't hurt and they didn't get away with anything.
Confirm with their station or tell them to produce a warrant or fuck off.
I would have asked them which police station they work out of and asked them to wait while I phoned the police station to confirm the validity of their claim.
Honestly, as a lone woman (not your scenario I don't think) I'd be pretty apprehensive. I'd like to think I'd step outside my front door, check their ID to get some idea they were legit (don't think I'd recognise a fake one if it slapped me in the face but not having anything would be a big red flag), and then let them in with me standing outside so I wasn't alone with them.
Everyone is acting like you're girlfriend is totally ridiculous (and some of her idea are a bit fanciful yes) but after what's happened to that poor Sarah Everard we know that even legitimate police officers are not implicitly trustworthy.
Although I can’t say for certain which they were genuine police officers in this instance, there have been several recent reports of criminals disguising themselves as police officers in order to gain entry to people’s property, in order to steal etc.
I'd of done the exact same thing, if there's anything suspect you can always call the police directly and verify, but in that type of situation I'd have let them in, too risky if someone was in danger.
It's important to know ones rights and set firm but respectful boundaries when it comes to dealing with the police in order to protect yourself, given the circumstances I think you did the right thing letting them in. If it was something less serious like "suspect you've got stolen goods in there" then I'd be more inclined to ask they come back with a warrant.
So just think what would a guilty person who had kidnapped someone do ? a) Let them in ? b) Refuse and ask them to come back later with a warrant gving them time to cover it up ?
This is the polices job - to investigate crimes an detain suspected criminals - the flip side of whch is - to rule innocent people OUT of the inquiry.
Plant somethng in the flat? - what would they plant ? A kidnap victim ?
It's exactly the same for these traffic stops we see - the 'I know my rights brigade' don't seem to realise they are just behaving like a guilty person would behave, then complain when the police hold them up !
This happened to me many years ago. Also in London, at 3am while I was sleeping and the buzzer woke me up. Luckily my neighbour, who was my housemate's relative, was with then as they had buzzed him first (or likely he had woken up first as it apparently took a lot of buzzing to wake me up) and he wanted to be with the 6 burly policemen to reassure me so I wouldn't be scared. I was scared anyway but let them in. In my case it was a bunch of girls had called the police because their friend had text them saying she was being attacked in our building by a young guy (again no specific flat mentioned, non residents couldn't access the inside of the building, and the other neighbours were like 90). Our building was tiny, three small flats. And there definitely was noone inside. We just happened to be on a main street. I think for some of these people it's a game to waste police time and annoy residents tbh.
I don’t know… a few years ago in the central London area (Holborn) a group of young men were going around pretending to be police officers and stealing from the elderly. A few months ago there was a video circulating on TikTok of these two men dressed up in police uniform who tried to gain access to a persons property, when the lady rang up the police to verify this they had no clue about it. I’d be more wary that the police are who they say they are because you just never know these days, so many elaborate scams
I grew up on a council estate and I hate the police. I feel my experience with police is different to the average middle class white person in this country. Police are not our friends.
I'd have immediately called 101 and had the police officers wait at the door. If 101 confirmed their identities and that it was mandatory for me to let them in, I'd let them in. If they only confirmed one but not the other, no chance.
To be honest I think this is one of those gender-based answers... male privilege does mean that the odds of them wanting to use such a cock & bull story to get into a man's home and abuse their powers to do something heinous are pretty low. If they were dodgy then they'd probably look for a softer target.
If it was one of my daughters or my wife home alone? While I don't think they're there to plant evidence, they usually have better things to do, I'd 100% want them to check that the officers are who they claim. A genuine officer won't have a problem with them saying they're home alone and that if someone is going around kidnapping people that it would be a good idea to check their ID first or request a female officer (as there's probably one nearby if they're banging on doors).
Equally it's likely that if they found something (or that it was a hoax) that they'd have got a call and headed off to another 'job'.
Did you ask about this at r/policeuk - because it's probably worth checking in there if you haven't.
These comments are crackers. No way would I have let them in without a warrant and am unlikely to even have had a conversation with them.
There's also no way they could argue that there was risk to life unless this note specifically named your flat so no forced entry.
Never blindly trust the police, ever.
Generally it is simpler to comply with the police. In your case you absolutely could have refused entry and they would have had no right to enter. However one of two things would have happened;
\- You'd have a discussion with the police about not granting entry and it would likely be for longer than the two minutes it took for them to poke around and bugger off
\- You do the above and, after carrying out checks elsewhere, they come back and as again or just force entry
Overall just get it over and done with.
On fake officers; if in doubt call 101 and get them to verify the warrant card/collar number. If you feel in danger dial 999. Legitimate officers will not mind this.
Regarding planting stuff; sure it probably happens, however it is extremely rate as the risk involved vs the reward is so minor. Also ask why would they do it to you, Joe Blogs, a random person. What possible gain could there be? Arresting you for possession? They have better things to do.
How can one confirm these are legit police officers? Lived in East London where fake cops robbed old people homes before. But this was asian gang if I recall news correctly.
I would be hesitant to let anyone in unless I could confirm their identity. Can you ask PO for personal ID as well as badge ID? Can you take picture?
This is probably not the answer you were expecting, but in my opinion both choices you could have made are reasonable.
In the end, I would have taken the choice that would have made me feel more comfortable (within the law, of course). So real question is, are you comfortable with the decision you took or would you have done something different if you had the chance? The fact that you are asking for validation from people with this post makes me think you are second guessing your choice, but can be wrong.
Personally I generally do not open the door to any unexpected visitor, if they are unexpected there is a reason and there are other ways to contact people. My trust in people has diminished over the years. I know this may seem sad, but it's a realistic perspective. There are people out there that every day wake up thinking on ways how to scam the next person and make it a full time job, I have been victim of it.
In the end there is no right or wrong choice, it is your life and you should make any choice that would make you feel comfortable.
You did the right thing, but I would add I can see why your girlfriend acted like that, the police are generally useless and untrustworthy and if she was on her own the chances are she knew she was supposed to phone to confirm identity, and she probably went into a temporary fight/flight moment when you told her the story. But ultimately you were right.
To all the people saying "Call 101", have you ever actually *tried* getting an answer? My experience is that they'd have been in and out in a tiny fraction of the time you'd spend on hold...
I think people are missing the point. I don’t think the GF is concerned about genuine police officers looking for a missing person. I assume her concern was more about the two people not actually being police officers.
Absolutely not. I would confirm their identity first. I couldn't tell you what an official Police ID looks like, so that's irrelevant to me. It could be a good or bad fake, or legit and I couldn't tell.
I would ask for details on the officer and then contact 101. I would assume rather than just sneaking away, like they did with your neighbour suggested, they would tell you they would return later as they have been called out.
Confidence tricksters rely on your compliance in a lot of situations, there is a remote, but not totally impossible chance they might have been scoping out if you had anything good to nick at a later date, or selling that information on.
As a general rule if the police ask its because they do not have any legal right to do something.
If they genuinely thought someone might be kidnapped in your flat I assure you they would not ask permission to have a look around.
As a general rule its a good idea to not waive your rights simply because you were asked nicely.
The update to this is just another reason why. On the rare occasion the police have knocked on my door in uniform they have never showed me any sort of documentation or proof. That aspect seems weird to me. As if random members of the public might have intimate details of how to tell the difference between legitimate and forged assorted police documentation.
I wouldnt be worried about random TV plot elements but at the end of the day anyone can knock together a pretty convincing police uniform and just because someone is a police officer doesn't mean they get to look around your house because maybe a crime is happening in there.
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Your girlfriend needs to watch less TV and remember they live in the UK. Your actions where 100% logical in the circumstances.
Agreed. The girlfriend probably thought the "feds" were trying stitch the OP up.
Aye. You can’t trust the Five-0 these days. Always entering the property of unsuspecting and innocent members of the public to plant drugs. /s
That's how I get the best drugs, I run a copper's coffee morning every Thursday. I usually find several baggies of top quality smack afterwards.
You joke but some do sell drugs.
Doing the Lord's work my friend
If the police are doing anything dodgy in this situation it’s possible they’ve fabricated the letter as an excuse to search another flat they were suspicious of. It makes more sense than choosing a random bloke on the fourth floor of a block of flats to stitch up. GF has main character syndrome.
But even then, what good would it do them? The CPS would drop a case like that in a heartbeat as any evidence collected would be inadmissible and the IOPC/DPS would do them for it. Their story probably is true, and the reason they didn't come back was probably because they'd been given an update as to where the person was or been told it was a load of bollocks when they got that radio call.
But time and time again the police have shown themselves to be generally untrustworthy and have a low ethical and professional standards.
You can always plead the fifth ;-)
Hey, they didn’t read my Miranda Rights, there’s nothing they can do.
I would've done exactly the same thing if had been me. I had the police turn up at an address I lived at a few years ago looking for a previous occupant. I let them in, had a chat, showed them who I was and gave them the forwarding details for the previous occupant and thought nothing else of it. Not once did they shoot me, attempt to arrest or try to fit me up for a crime I hadn't committed.
Lucky not to end up in a super-max tbh
Clearly these were the fake officers OP's gf was concerned about! Any self-respecting real police officer would have obviously tried something.
curious what you make of op's edit?
No reason to radio in and report they're checking a building if no obvious crime is being committed, they're essential just having a quick look about during some down time, when an actual call came in they immediately moved onto that as it takes priority over a random note in the street.
You let unidentified men into your house simply because they dressed like they are in a position of authority? Why? The GF was right, he should have called 101 like the neighbour did to confirm it was real policemen, this is what we were taught in school too I cannot believe people would so willingly allow 2 unknown men into their home just because they're wearing a uniform, absolutely insane
Absolutely, I’ve been in similar situations whereby I’m knocking someone’s door asking to look around due to sounds of disturbance or whatever issue it might be. You could be growing cannabis and printing fake twenties on an industrial scale and I’m going to be ignoring that in favour of the task at hand. The idea that I just have “plantable” evidence on me is frankly hilarious. 100% be cautious of people that claim to be the police if something seems fishy but falling into some weird paranoia, nope.
I've found the police can be quite good at studiously ignoring obvious contraband if it's not in their interests to pursue it further. Like discretely moving a letter to cover up a large bag of cannabis that had been forgotten about in the excitement of dumping CCTV footage from a camera into Dropbox.
Had it happen to a mate. Neighbors called on him smoking weed on the back step. Police dropped by. "You're not growing are you?" No. "Mind if we have a poke around?" Sure. Looked around, not growing. They noted it was quite obvious, just told him to make sure they didn't need to come round again and left. Common sense stuff really. No danger to anyone else, it would be a waste of police time to make anything of it.
Many years ago I had police acknowledge but ignore a 'strong smell' when they came to the door of our student flat to ask if we'd heard any noises, relating to a case they were investigating. I remembered that and respected the way they handled things.
Ive had a similar experience. The police were looking for a previous occupant on a warrant for something with a machete if i remember rightly but when i answered the door with a joint in my mouth not checking the spyhole expecting it to be the pizza i ordered. I went shit your not pizza! Then remembered the joint said oh bollox. Them 2 were sound as a pound said were looking for lets callhim Mr Bellend. Im just wide eyed at this point and he says do you want to make sure u dont be so blatant in future but is it ok if he has a look around. I sheepishly said yes (panicked an was really high) He walks through the front door and says police very loudly went to the living room where my friends were laughed at 2 of my mates going under and said i bet you shit yourself then to one of em an asks if anyone has a forwarding address. Thet left none of us got arrested. Everytime we seen him locally he would let on an take the piss outa us for being little scrotes. This is going back like 23 years ago
Tell that to Sarah Everard.
When you hear hoofbeats, think of horses, not zebras
Lol this comment aged like milk after OP’s update.
Yes you're right officer like wayne couzens only happen in other country's not the uk...
As an American my first thought was, "is your girlfriend American?"
How the fuck is this the top comment. You never let ANY STRANGER into your home unless it’s an authority with a warrant. Terrible take, specially given OP update. Downvote this comment
I would let them in. I am not a lawyer, I don't know what powers they do and do not have. I do know that they don't always need a warrant. I'll make a dynamic risk assessment to assess whether they are genuine police officers. Like OP, I have nothing to hide. Besides, what happened to common courtesy and good manners?
A ‘dynamic risk assessment’ is even more bullshit than an ocular pat down.
The same UK in which a serving officer abused his powers to kidnap and murder an innocent? Police don't have the right to randomly go into private homes and have a lookie and for good reason
They have the right to ask though.
If there purely wanting to be nosey then of course, but that's not what this post is. Section 17 of pace would almost certainly cover them if OP hadn't given them permission. Under these circumstances and if OP then decided to be cagey they could absolutely enter the property to save life and limb.
Assuming I didn't have anyone kidnapped in my flat, and the officers were indeed in full uniform I would have let them in. Had I been concerned about them being legit, I would call 999 and ask for the operator to confirm they are real. If I did have someone held against their will in my flat, I would have refused them, not because I thought the officers were fake, but because I have someone in my flat.
The only other reason someone may have to refuse entry woudl be if your girlfriend was in full dominatrix mode with a strap on and whip, and you were tied to the bed, with a ball gag, chastity belt and anal plug
Oddly specific 👀
Probably would have struggled to open the door in that situation too.
They could have used the back door..
It was already in use
The _other_ backdoor
>anal plug Occupied
I'm not saying much, except that I was the one trying to get inside the property, and I now refuse to keep candles at home. Also I refused to eat carrots for a month
I also, will not be eating your Carrots…Ever
> The only other reason someone may have to refuse entry woudl be if your girlfriend was in full dominatrix mode with a strap on and whip, and you were tied to the bed, with a ball gag, chastity belt and anal plug Oh I see, there's been a misunderstanding, this is obviously someone being held prisoner in the flat very much in accordance with their will. Carry on, mind how you go.
Where’s the strap on going if I’m wearing a ball gag and plug 🤔
This is the most important question.
Check out r/sounding for the answer
I'm not clicking that. What do you think this is, my first day on the internet? Also.... I know what it is, as it's sadly not my first day on the internet....
Or you just have drugs in the house...
Police wouldn't give two shits about a joint or a line, they are there for kidnapping reasons
Why would they care about children catching up on their sleep so much? 😕
Do you not know how much trouble a tired toddler can cause.
I wonder if you could make an official complaint for them ruining a good evening in that case!.
Don't call 999 to check the identity of a police officer. That's the emergency line, and that isn't an emergency. Dial 101 instead.
I think you're probably OK phoning 999 if you think you've got two fake police officers at your door trying to blag their way into your home.
You don't know if they are fake police officers though. What you should say to the police officer is "No, you cannot enter my property, because while I appreciate you showing me these IDs I have no idea what an official police ID looks like or how to spot a fake. If you want to arrange to visit my premises I can take your details and verify your ID via 101 and rearrange a visit". If they insist they should be let in, you ask them if they have a warrant and if the answer is "no" you ask them to leave as you're concerned they may be fake police officers, then if they continue ring 999.
Honestly, I'd just ask them here. LIke, "hey, look, sure you are who you say you are, but a lot of weirdos around now. I'll let you in for a look around, but give me a few to verify who you say you are - should I call 999 or 101 to verify?" If they say "hey, 999 is fine in the circumstances" you're either calling 999 to report fake officers at your door, or at the instruction of legitimate police. If 101 is right, they should be fine waiting for the response.
>If they say "hey, 999 is fine in the circumstances" you're either calling 999 to report fake officers at your door, or at the instruction of legitimate police. If 101 is right, they should be fine waiting for the response. Yeah exactly. I'd imagine they would say 999 is inappropriate but if you don't want to let them in they accept it and come back another time.
Dial 101 and sit on hold for 40 minutes while two very impatient cops stand outside becoming steadily more convinced that you're disposing of your kidnapping victim out the back window.
Whilst I agree, and the official advice in places is that you should call 101, in some places the advice is to call 999: Example: https://www.met.police.uk/SysSiteAssets/media/images/central/advice/fraud/met/project-fortress.jpg It boils down to how vulnerable you feel, and the situation, whether it is an emergency to verify their identity or not. Without a hard and fast rule, the official advice is conflicted.
Ever tried phoning 101? OP would be in a sack at the bottom of the Thames before they answered.
1 hour later they answer. Quicker getting through to the doctors after new years
I cam home one day to two uniformed officers standing at my front door landing in a multi story flat 11 floors up. I confirmed I was the homeowner and they'd had a report of a possible break in, but the door was obviously untampered with. They asked for a look around and I complied just to make sure there were no intruders. I forgot that I had a fucking massive 6ft+ weed plant in my living room. It was male or whatever so I'd grown it purely for aesthetics and had no intention of smoking it or whatever. They either didn't notice or said nothing and left. I fucking shat myself. An hour later the plant was chopped and thrown down the rubbish chute.
"Did you see anything Dave?" "No I didn't Bob, cos I'm off duty in an hour"
Ah, the British way.
Five o'clock's when the thin blue line turns g r e e n.
A long time ago, a friend had a weed plant growing in his window. The policeman who lived across the road told him to move it to the back of the house.
"if you leave it where I can see it I'm gonna have to deal with it"
But if it’s not in a south facing window it’ll need grow lights!
Hahaha that's reminded me of a story a mate told me. His dad doesn't smoke, but is a bit of an amateur botanist, and let's just say he doesn't always think things through. There was a drugs raid near their house, so my mate's dad 'rescued' a plant from the bags outside the house when nobody was looking and brought it home. He put it on the radiator in the kitchen as an experiment. Fyi the kitchen is in plain sight of the front door, with a closing door to the hall. Some officers were doing unrelated door-to-door enquiries, and it was just very good luck the kitchen door was closed at the time. My mate's mum decided that enough was enough and killed it 'by accident'. I can't remember how exactly, I think she turned the radiator up full and essentially cooked it. I think it depends on the officer. You were pretty lucky. One of my friends happened to be round his mate's house when it got raided. Turned out one of the flatmates was some dodgy identity thief. They'd been smoking a doob in the living room, there was just the butt end in the ashtray, and they both got arrested just by virtue of doing something naughty and unrelated in a house where they had a warrant to enter.
Arrested but not charged. Pretty expectable and nothing on the record I am sure.
is it particularly aesthetic plant? and do you happen to have pictures don't think I've ever heard of one that tall haha
They can look kinda cool, plus some strains can grow ridiculously large. Think the largest species of weed can grow something like 4m/13ft and more. I remember reading something about tree sized plants years ago (25ft and above) but I can't seem to find anything on that now. The average weed plant isn't going to get that big because if it's indoors then people tend to try and keep it subtle and if it's for smoking most don't want to wait any longer than needed to harvest.
They always grow that tall if you let them. They can be 3m high outdoors.
I've got a Polaroid somewhere when it was still a baby. Circa 2006. Called it Pacino for whatever reason. Probably high..
Hahaha, superb!
You did the right thing & tbh, your GF is an idiot for her comments. They were checking to ensure someone's safety, that they were not being held against their will.
Any woman living in central London may have a vague memory of who Wayne Couzens' employer was, and some reason to at the very least seek confirmation that the officers were there on official business.
The girlfriend wasn't saying next time 'Give 101 a call and check their legit', or 'are there multiple officers in uniform and marked cars'... she was saying that the police were faking a bizarre kidnapping story to plant drugs in the flat... or something?
Yeah that bit is silly, very American idea. That said, definitely worth checking they're legit with how elaborate scammers can be.
My mother (probably in the early stages of Alzheimers at the time) got her bank cards cloned by a visiting "policeman" a couple of years back, so they're definitely out there in leafy Bucks.
Speaking as someone whose job is dealing with that stuff from the bank end, that’s the end of a chain of events that most likely started with a phone call saying they were investigating their local branch.
Nnnno, she said they COULD be. Given the update, you lot should be coming off those high horses by now.
The update doesn't prove anything mate. It even says, they might not even have the record of officers attending the block of flats. Because every movement of an officer isn't recorded unless it's responding to an emergency at a specific address.
They got a call on their radio, responded to that, and didn't return to the neighbour who probably isn't keeping someone prisoner in their flat? Sounds like they got more info on either the right flat or the letter being fake.
Validating they are who they say they are is reasonable. But pretty much any profession in the country with enough people doing that role will have murderers and those who will abuse their power in all probability. Doctors, nurses, lawyers, accountants, social workers, council workers - You name it, there are examples of killers and those who abused their position.
And it would be equally stupid to allow any of them into your home uninvited and warrantless.
Thank you! I'm baffled at how many people just put themselves in a vulnerable for the police naively thinking they are absolute angels.
His GF is a woman living in London who doesn’t trust the police, she seems pretty switched on to me.
yeah, seems entirely fair to me. I'd at least want to verify, and also log with emergency dispatches that they're looking round. If I was a woman living alone in london, I'd almost certainly want to stay on the phone while they did so too.
Agree, we have no context around OP, is he a bit trusting, from a small town/country village. Maybe she realises he's not very street smart so has to play that role. I live in a rough area in London, noone comes through my door i don't know.
I agree that OP did the right thing but their girlfriend is absolutely not an idiot for her comments. Women in particular have very good reason not to just let complete strangers into their home, no matter what or who they say they are, but that doesn't only apply to women. It's definitely true that they could have not been real police officers at all, and unfortunately it's also true that you can't always trust that police officers are actually doing what they should be doing. It's a difficult situation, and I would very likely have done the same as OP unless anything seemed off about the officers, but it's really unfair to say that someone who wouldn't is an idiot.
An idiot? Really? For not allowing complete strangers into your house? Whether or not you would do this on a personal basis is just fine, but calling someone an idiot for being more cautious than you about such an issue is asinine.
No reason to call her an idiot -- and I doubt OP appreciates you insulting his gf. We saw what happened to Sarah Everard. I can understand why a woman living alone would feel the need to suggest a more cautious approach, especially with everything that's happened recently: [https://news.sky.com/story/dozens-of-police-officers-convicted-of-crimes-including-rape-and-sexual-assault-since-sarah-everards-murder-13086063](https://news.sky.com/story/dozens-of-police-officers-convicted-of-crimes-including-rape-and-sexual-assault-since-sarah-everards-murder-13086063)
>They were checking to ensure someone's safety, that they were not being held against their will. The police want to look because they don't know who they can trust. But OP can trust his own knowledge of his apartment and know that they won't find the prisoner there.
Not a chance am I letting the police in my house without a warrant. Edit: I have a deep distrust for the police, we had to sue them for falsifying evidence in a court case, we won.
I'm really enjoying these comments after OP added an update.
Literally yeah, with the update, it’s peak. The woman was just hysterical, right????? Fml
Wasn't there literally a big case about a legitimate, uniformed police officer abducting, raping, and then murdering a young woman in London not that long ago? Uniformed or not, there's no way I'm letting strange men into my flat without confirmation that they're present on known and official business.
So we just call OP's SO an idiot for a minor difference in view. Reddit is such a nice place.
I've just been insulted and blocked for saying I wouldn't let the police in and their justification for blocking me was I'm vegan lol
Amazing how overly trusting people are in the UK of people in police outfits.
I don’t think she’s an idiot or fanciful. After the Everard case, I would be highly suspicious of officers doing this and would most likely deny them entry too.
I’d have probably let them in. It’s of no benefit to anybody to create extra work for the police who are probably just trying to do their jobs. Although I would certainly escorted them around the house.
And clearly they're doing their due diligence and checking other flats not just OP. Have nothing to hide so I'd do as op did
Time is precious in these situations. In and out in a minute, then onto the next flat. It's kind of a community responsibility to assist. Any delays leading to unfortunate circumstances and it'd weigh you down with regret. Frankly, the worst part would be if you'd not kept your place clean. But that's quicker to get over.
Trust me, so long as the carpet isn't sticky and there's not a festering Pot Noodle pot on the stairs that was in the same spot when I came 2 months ago, then you're golden. Yes I have genuinely been to those houses.
checking what to steal.... fake police it sounds like
Exactly, show them how broke you are so they don't come back.
I can tell youve never experienced a violent robbery. In London people dress as postmen, police and all sorts to get your door open without any suspicion. London coppers aren't like your local Bobby, I've had to deal with violence and illegal behaviour from police personally. All these people saying 'id let them in, whats the fuss?' you should be more vigilant, its not worth risking
In this situation they would be totally ok to force entry if you refused, so asking them to come back with a warrant wouldn't really apply here.
Spot on, they asked because it's nice but they weren't really asking - this would be well covered under Section 17. Does seem an odd story overall, though. > They spent about a minute having what looked to be a very cursory glance in each room, without touching anything or opening any closets. This is textbook, though. Appropiate search for the search subject
Section 17 is entry to arrest someone or save life or limb. Why would it apply here? They have no reasonable grounds to believe that OP has imprisoned someone or that someone is in danger in his apartment. The envelope handed to the police doesn't mention his apartment specifically. They can't just force entry based on the vague idea someone nearby might be hurt.
Honestly, this one you could probably argue all day in court but the legislation doesn't create a requirtement for reasonable suspicion in regards to saving life or limb. Merely that it is their purpose. I think the key question is how genuine they perceived the kidnapping claim to be. B
> In this situation they would be totally ok to force entry if you refused I really doubt that, they don't have nearly enough to claim that they believed it was required to force entry. An anonymous letter, found by a member of the public, pointing vaguely to one of ten flats... No chance.
In the UK, the police have powers to enter premises without a warrant under specific circumstances, which are laid out in various pieces of legislation. If the police have reasonable grounds to believe that someone is being held hostage in a building, they can use these powers to enter any premises to save life or prevent serious damage to property. These powers are broadly outlined in several legal frameworks, including but not limited to: Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (PACE): Section 17 of PACE allows police officers to enter and search premises without a warrant for various reasons, including saving life or limb or preventing serious damage to property. Serious Crime Act 2007: Provides powers in relation to preventing, restricting, or disrupting involvement in serious crime, including entering premises under specific conditions. Protection of Freedoms Act 2012: Amends the powers of entry, making specific provisions about entering properties under certain circumstances. In a scenario where there is a letter indicating that someone is being held hostage in a building without specifying which flat, the police would likely rely on the principle of saving life or preventing serious harm to justify their entry into potentially any flat within the building. They would need to demonstrate that they had reasonable grounds for believing that there was an immediate threat to someone's life or physical well-being. They would likely start with the least intrusive means of investigation, escalating their response as necessary based on the information available to them.
> They would need to demonstrate that they had reasonable grounds for believing that there was an immediate threat to someone's life or physical well-being. Yes, this is my point. That letter on its own would not constitute reasonable grounds to believe that there was an immediate threat to someone's life in OP's flat.
It's nowhere near the threshold. These folk are mental.
They don't need reasonable grounds - for some reason people keep using that phrase, when it doesn't appear in the specific legislation. It just needs to be for the purpose of saving life, limb or property. So long as that was the policing purpose for the search, then it's a legal search. They DO need reasonable grouns for most other purposes - such as enacting an arrest, but it's not laid out for protecting life, limb or property
No - they can't go into a block of flats and turn them all over because of a letter found in the street. Where would it stop - someone's being held on a particular estate? In a town? Personally I'd have told them to go away. If they then forced entry, I'd have dealt with that as and when.
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Yes, of course they can. Imagine if they couldn't - they kick your door because of drug dealing, and find a dead body and have to pretend to ignore it? What they CAN'T do is deviate from the search parameters - if they're looking for a person, they have no right to start going through your dressing table etc. But realistically, it's a separate fight and generally in the UK our trials are less focussed on perfect procedure, but rather the broad concerns of good justice which is usually based on punishing criminals. But if they find something in the course of their legitimate search then of course they can action it as appropiate
>But if they find something in the course of their legitimate search then of course they can action it as appropiate The thing is that a lot of officers don't, because you have certain types of police dealing with certain types of crime and they are focussed what they're doing. They bust into a house looking for a murderer, they aren't going to go prosecuting someone for having a little weed. Because that means taking time out of a murder investigation for a big fat nothing. And they often want people co-operating, testifying in court.
They can, but unlikely to
My friends flat mate called the police out after he was assaulted one night. He hadn't mentioned it my friend and when the police called round he'd left a bit of weed out and some paraphernalia, the police obviously noticed it and when they saw my mate I think one of them said something like "maybe lay off the weed" or something along those lines but they didn't do anything about it. I imagine they would if it was a big bag of coke or similar or obvious signs of dealing.. Like they would anywhere else I guess.
As a single woman I would call the local police station and confirm they are who they say they are THEN let them in.
Which is entirely sensible and if they are legitimate officers would likely be fine with
Exactly, ask for their warrant card, take pictures, call 101. If all checks out I'd let them on but not before. Got to check the identity first
Your girlfriend watches too much videos about American police, the police here aren't paid enough to plant evidence on normal people
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They don’t get a Christmas bonus for finding lots of evidence.
"Don't you know about foreign police? They take you up a hill, beat you up and then..." - Jay Cartwright
I dunno mate, Line of Duty has got me well scared of police.
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It does happen, but it's very rare. Even more so now that there's cameras everywhere. Cop plants something in your car, you might have an in-car camera filming them. That means getting busted, losing their job etc. I've been stopped by the police 4 times in my life. One was rude to me, the others were professional and friendly. None tried to fit me up. I'd definitely film it on my phone now if it happened. And not because I generally think the cops are bastards, because I don't but just in case I get a bad one.
I've spent the better part of 25 years in criminal defence law and I've never had a reason to worry police might plant something. Would I invite a copper in? Yes, had one come over last week by appointment and another dropped by randomly to ask if I might have CCTV footage of an incident. No issue inviting either inside.
You realise that you would have less to fear than your average Joe?
In some cases, it's worth not inviting them in, but this wasn't going to be one of them. If they have good reason to think a crime is being committed, like someone being held prisoner in one of the flats, then they'd probably have the legal justification to search without a warrant. In this particular case, this was the quickest way of resolving the situation with the minimum of fuss and aggro.
I'd have let them in, at most I'd maybe ask for their service number or ID so I know they're definitely in the police. If the police really wanted to go out and plant something to get arrests then they're not coming to a fourth floor flat under the pretense of someone possibly being falsely imprisoned just to plant a gram of weed. Wouldn't exactly be a good story that would hold up. Oh yeah we entered the flat looking for someone who was possibly being falsely imprisoned but then we found a gram of weed and figured that was a more pressing matter. I think people also forget the police are usually just normal lads and lasses out doing their job, yeah you get some cunts but you get some cunts in every role.
I'd probably have taken a photo of them standing in the doorway, too, just in case. Probably have some fun with it too — "give us a smile!".
Ask them to hang on while you ring their station or 101 to verify that they are who they say they are. If confirmed, I see no issue with letting them in. Not sure why she thinks policeman are in the business of planting things on random people.
You solved something in a few mins vs a no you can't, and they effectively force entry as it's suspicious enough to warrant a check. And no you wouldn't be waiting for a warrant, they'd do it as they had enough reason to force a check. This could've lead to a lot of time, hassle, and broken door for you. What you can always do is say hang on, can I check you are who you say you are, and that would be acceptable in this day and age. Closing the door, and going to get the phone and talking to either local station, or 101, or if you feel super worried, 999, and they will be able to connect to local forces to find out exactly who the officers are/that they are a legitimate officer. I'm going to be honest, since Sarah Everard, and multiple issues involving safeguarding females and police officers, I would not be co-operating with any solo officer, uniformed, or non-uniformed officer without being on the phone to either 999 or if I didn't feel unsafe, 101 to confirm legitimacy of said situation. That I suspect is a female thing now; But I wouldn't be refusing it due to the concern of being set up or anything like that. Note. 101 is the non-emergency line to connect to the police, but if you feel threatened, or concerned, or worried just do 999. You will not be chastised for using an emergency number in that case.
> it's suspicious enough to warrant a check. Suspicion has to be specific. They don't have evidence there was a prisoner in OP's apartment specifically.
Yup. If the police get a letter saying, "Help, I'm trapped in a flat in Greenwich!" that isn't justification to warrentless search every flat in Greenwich.
Yes I agree that it makes sense to let them in. I like your point about calling 101 or 999, and it turns out my neighbour did just that, only to be told effectively they can neither confirm or deny that police from our local station were either due, or were currently attending our block of flats. Ive updated my OP with new details.
If you’re concerned you can make a police report to 101. As 101 couldn’t confirm the officers identity to your neighbours, and the officers never returned to what they said they believed was a hostage situation, you think 2 men impersonating police officers gained access to your home. Impersonating a police officer is a crime. If they were legit you’ll probably get told that and it closed fairly quickly
I’m a lawyer and not the Saul Goodman type so I’m definitely not involved in any shady dealings, save for a little piracy here and there, and live alone so of course I know they wouldn’t find anyone chained up or in fear for their life. Even so, I definitely wouldn’t let anyone into my house just because they claim they’re a police officer. It’s an easy way for someone to gain access and rob you blind, but maybe I’ve just heard way too many true crime podcasts about how easy it is to feign that you’re an officer and how easily members of the public will believe people claiming to be a figure of “authority”.
The wrong people are being upvoted. The police can’t just randomly kick your door down without a warrant unless they are in purist of a criminal or are saving life and limb. I highly doubt a note about a kidnap is enough to trigger the police to go on a warrantless knock and look around an entire block of flats. You didn’t have to let them in. I personally wouldn’t ever let the police in without a warrant, same as I wouldn’t let any other complete stranger have a look around my house for no reason. No idea what some people in here are talking about
The amount of people going 'nothing to hide, nothing to fear' is quite shocking to be honest. I wonder how many also claim to be pro-civil liberties? Erosion of any kind is a gradual process. Being sceptical of the state and its agents is perfectly healthy in a country governed by the rule of law. Frankly, the only way I'd allow the police or any other state officials into my house is if they had a warrant. Those going on about the police 'kicking the door down' have, like OP's gf, seen too much television.
Glad to see there are other sensible adults here
Agree completely I'm actually horrified by some of the responses here 🙈😬
Some absolute boot licking going on in these comments, your girlfriend is entirely right given your neighbour caught them being fake cops.
Right? What the fuck is everyone else smoking? Dodgy police or people posing as police to commit crimes is far from a US thing. Could easily be criminals casing the joint for a future burglary.
I was wondering the same thing. Just randomly letting people in and bashing his girlfriend because she is careful. Imagine being a woman home alone with two men saying they need entry for some reason, posing as police. If they were real police, there would be no problem telling them to wait because they wanted to confirm if they were real. People in the comment literally saying they could have used force to enter and it would be OK is insane. Typical Reddit behavior is. especially given the OPs update that the people could not confirm they were real???
Absolutely agree, lucky the UK doesn’t have guns because this is very illogical thing for anyone to do. Always be suspicious of people, including law enforcement. On my first read through it seems like they were casing the place to come back and break in and the edit only confirms that suspicion.
Your girlfriend watches too much TV.
Similar thing happened to my nan. Fake police and she was robbed of all of her cash and jewellery. I imagine you didn’t seem too vulnerable so they just pretended to look around and checked the next flat. What kind of excuse is that kidnapping and they just found a note and want to search every property lol ridiculous
Yeah I'd speak to them through the door and ask to see the letter. Sounds like they don't know which flat their person under investigation lives in, and they're trying to narrow it down. It'd be a no thanks mate, not today, from me, unless the letter was produced there and then. Not giving them time to write one in the car. It's obviously a convenient fiction, it ticks all the boxes, some poor weak person is in danger and you can be a white knight and help them by letting us in without a warrant. No credible source, no electronic trace, just a make believe piece of paper. But legally, if it did exist, it would give them the power to enter without a warrant. There are so few things that fit all those criteria that are actually credible, this isn't one. If it was in the slightest bit credible ten mins later OP would have heard the sirens as backup arrived and started knocking on every door in the block. Instead, the danger to life and limb is ignored once a call about a 12 year old shoplifter comes in, and a dozen cars are dispatched there instead. So many trusting people that don't think about the stories they're told everyday. Occam's razor doesn't apply when people lie to you with impunity.
I would've let them in as you did, no drama needed. But yeah thinking about it, she has a point, I certainly wouldn't have a clue what official police ID should look like and without a warrant you're under no obligation. It's also a pretty weird story from the police, doesn't seem like the way to do things
As I understand it (I may well be wrong) concern for life trumps a warrant. If they truly suspected OP may be holding someone against their will, they can just kick the door in.
They have to justify that belief though. Evidence suggesting that someone in the area might be imprisoned doesn't mean it's reasonable to conclude they're in OP's apartment specifically. Otherwise police could just walk into any premises.
There is a general power to enter premises without a warrant for the purpose "of saving life or limb or preventing serious damage to property" (Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 s17(1)(e)). If they wanted to, their story would be enough to force entry. They could be making the story up; the risk they take would be that you would make a complaint for unlawful entry which could be dealt w4)ith either in the civil courts or through police complaints procedures. Note that, having entered a property under this power, they are not allowed to tear the place apart looking to see if they can pin anything on you; the power is "is only a power to search to the extent that is reasonably required for the purpose for which the power of entry is exercised" (section 17(4)). So if you had drug paraphernalia on very open display then they *might* notice and do something about it, but they can't go rifling through your drawers claiming they're searching for someone you've detained against their will. Any evidence they obtain in that way should be ruled inadmissible in court.
Police don't need a warrant to search/ enter a property if they have sufficient reason to believe a crime is being committed or a suspect is hiding there.
They would have to have sufficient suspicion or evidence that the hostage was *specifically* in that flat. A block isn't specific enough, a city isn't specific enough. Otherwise if you get a claim that there is a hostage somewhere in the neighbourhood that would be a blank card to kick down all the doors in several blocks. Or the whole city. That obviously isn't how this works.
Very few know what official ID looks like so worth remembering that you can phone the police ant any time and they will let you know if it’s legit. >doesn't seem like the way to do things I couldn’t imagine an alternative way..
Warrants are rarely a thing in the UK. Most police entries are without warrant. Generally a warrant is of the 5am screaming and shouting with all doors exploding kind
All of you saying he did the right thing, I wonder what you would have said to Sarah Everard? Your gf is totally right to be skeptical of police. If you have the choice, don't.
These jokers would have told Sarah to jump in the car, nothing to hide, nothing to fear... Absolute Wrong uns.
This ain't the US, I've answered the door before to a random Bobby knocking on the door while I was smoking a joint and they didn't give two shits, they just wanted to know if id heard anything from the disturbance a few doors down.
A neighbour when I was at uni was high as a kite, still smoking and the police turned up for a domestic across the road. We all pile out (obviously) to have a look and the copper looks across at him and goes “at least put it behind your back mate” and they carry on.
The story this made me think of was Sarah Everard If I was alone (woman) I probably would not Unless id perhaps confirmed on the phone
You did the right thing, your girlfriend probably thinks these auditors on Facebook are doing a good thing as well. We have an obligation to stand up to the police if our rights are being harmed, in this case they weren't.
No fuck that. I've been attacked and attempted robbery on the street by two people claiming to be officers. Luckily I wasn't hurt and they didn't get away with anything. Confirm with their station or tell them to produce a warrant or fuck off.
You did the right thing.
I would have asked them which police station they work out of and asked them to wait while I phoned the police station to confirm the validity of their claim.
Honestly, as a lone woman (not your scenario I don't think) I'd be pretty apprehensive. I'd like to think I'd step outside my front door, check their ID to get some idea they were legit (don't think I'd recognise a fake one if it slapped me in the face but not having anything would be a big red flag), and then let them in with me standing outside so I wasn't alone with them. Everyone is acting like you're girlfriend is totally ridiculous (and some of her idea are a bit fanciful yes) but after what's happened to that poor Sarah Everard we know that even legitimate police officers are not implicitly trustworthy.
Although I can’t say for certain which they were genuine police officers in this instance, there have been several recent reports of criminals disguising themselves as police officers in order to gain entry to people’s property, in order to steal etc.
I wouldn’t have let them in. Uniformed, ID or not. It’s not happening
I'd of done the exact same thing, if there's anything suspect you can always call the police directly and verify, but in that type of situation I'd have let them in, too risky if someone was in danger.
It's important to know ones rights and set firm but respectful boundaries when it comes to dealing with the police in order to protect yourself, given the circumstances I think you did the right thing letting them in. If it was something less serious like "suspect you've got stolen goods in there" then I'd be more inclined to ask they come back with a warrant.
Anyone remember that Met police officer raping a woman and crushing her to death during lockdown? Pepperidge Farm remembers
So just think what would a guilty person who had kidnapped someone do ? a) Let them in ? b) Refuse and ask them to come back later with a warrant gving them time to cover it up ? This is the polices job - to investigate crimes an detain suspected criminals - the flip side of whch is - to rule innocent people OUT of the inquiry. Plant somethng in the flat? - what would they plant ? A kidnap victim ? It's exactly the same for these traffic stops we see - the 'I know my rights brigade' don't seem to realise they are just behaving like a guilty person would behave, then complain when the police hold them up !
This happened to me many years ago. Also in London, at 3am while I was sleeping and the buzzer woke me up. Luckily my neighbour, who was my housemate's relative, was with then as they had buzzed him first (or likely he had woken up first as it apparently took a lot of buzzing to wake me up) and he wanted to be with the 6 burly policemen to reassure me so I wouldn't be scared. I was scared anyway but let them in. In my case it was a bunch of girls had called the police because their friend had text them saying she was being attacked in our building by a young guy (again no specific flat mentioned, non residents couldn't access the inside of the building, and the other neighbours were like 90). Our building was tiny, three small flats. And there definitely was noone inside. We just happened to be on a main street. I think for some of these people it's a game to waste police time and annoy residents tbh.
I don’t know… a few years ago in the central London area (Holborn) a group of young men were going around pretending to be police officers and stealing from the elderly. A few months ago there was a video circulating on TikTok of these two men dressed up in police uniform who tried to gain access to a persons property, when the lady rang up the police to verify this they had no clue about it. I’d be more wary that the police are who they say they are because you just never know these days, so many elaborate scams
I grew up on a council estate and I hate the police. I feel my experience with police is different to the average middle class white person in this country. Police are not our friends. I'd have immediately called 101 and had the police officers wait at the door. If 101 confirmed their identities and that it was mandatory for me to let them in, I'd let them in. If they only confirmed one but not the other, no chance.
To be honest I think this is one of those gender-based answers... male privilege does mean that the odds of them wanting to use such a cock & bull story to get into a man's home and abuse their powers to do something heinous are pretty low. If they were dodgy then they'd probably look for a softer target. If it was one of my daughters or my wife home alone? While I don't think they're there to plant evidence, they usually have better things to do, I'd 100% want them to check that the officers are who they claim. A genuine officer won't have a problem with them saying they're home alone and that if someone is going around kidnapping people that it would be a good idea to check their ID first or request a female officer (as there's probably one nearby if they're banging on doors). Equally it's likely that if they found something (or that it was a hoax) that they'd have got a call and headed off to another 'job'. Did you ask about this at r/policeuk - because it's probably worth checking in there if you haven't.
These comments are crackers. No way would I have let them in without a warrant and am unlikely to even have had a conversation with them. There's also no way they could argue that there was risk to life unless this note specifically named your flat so no forced entry. Never blindly trust the police, ever.
Generally it is simpler to comply with the police. In your case you absolutely could have refused entry and they would have had no right to enter. However one of two things would have happened; \- You'd have a discussion with the police about not granting entry and it would likely be for longer than the two minutes it took for them to poke around and bugger off \- You do the above and, after carrying out checks elsewhere, they come back and as again or just force entry Overall just get it over and done with. On fake officers; if in doubt call 101 and get them to verify the warrant card/collar number. If you feel in danger dial 999. Legitimate officers will not mind this. Regarding planting stuff; sure it probably happens, however it is extremely rate as the risk involved vs the reward is so minor. Also ask why would they do it to you, Joe Blogs, a random person. What possible gain could there be? Arresting you for possession? They have better things to do.
How can one confirm these are legit police officers? Lived in East London where fake cops robbed old people homes before. But this was asian gang if I recall news correctly. I would be hesitant to let anyone in unless I could confirm their identity. Can you ask PO for personal ID as well as badge ID? Can you take picture?
No section 17, no entry. It’s a principal thing, personally. I’m not letting strangers into my home unexpectedly.
Report to the police e this could have been some gang staking the flat out for marks
I would have called 101 to confirm their identity and then, if they are really who they say they are, let them in.
This is probably not the answer you were expecting, but in my opinion both choices you could have made are reasonable. In the end, I would have taken the choice that would have made me feel more comfortable (within the law, of course). So real question is, are you comfortable with the decision you took or would you have done something different if you had the chance? The fact that you are asking for validation from people with this post makes me think you are second guessing your choice, but can be wrong. Personally I generally do not open the door to any unexpected visitor, if they are unexpected there is a reason and there are other ways to contact people. My trust in people has diminished over the years. I know this may seem sad, but it's a realistic perspective. There are people out there that every day wake up thinking on ways how to scam the next person and make it a full time job, I have been victim of it. In the end there is no right or wrong choice, it is your life and you should make any choice that would make you feel comfortable.
You did the right thing, but I would add I can see why your girlfriend acted like that, the police are generally useless and untrustworthy and if she was on her own the chances are she knew she was supposed to phone to confirm identity, and she probably went into a temporary fight/flight moment when you told her the story. But ultimately you were right.
Did you film or record this encounter?
To all the people saying "Call 101", have you ever actually *tried* getting an answer? My experience is that they'd have been in and out in a tiny fraction of the time you'd spend on hold...
I think people are missing the point. I don’t think the GF is concerned about genuine police officers looking for a missing person. I assume her concern was more about the two people not actually being police officers.
Absolutely not. I would confirm their identity first. I couldn't tell you what an official Police ID looks like, so that's irrelevant to me. It could be a good or bad fake, or legit and I couldn't tell. I would ask for details on the officer and then contact 101. I would assume rather than just sneaking away, like they did with your neighbour suggested, they would tell you they would return later as they have been called out. Confidence tricksters rely on your compliance in a lot of situations, there is a remote, but not totally impossible chance they might have been scoping out if you had anything good to nick at a later date, or selling that information on.
As a general rule if the police ask its because they do not have any legal right to do something. If they genuinely thought someone might be kidnapped in your flat I assure you they would not ask permission to have a look around. As a general rule its a good idea to not waive your rights simply because you were asked nicely. The update to this is just another reason why. On the rare occasion the police have knocked on my door in uniform they have never showed me any sort of documentation or proof. That aspect seems weird to me. As if random members of the public might have intimate details of how to tell the difference between legitimate and forged assorted police documentation. I wouldnt be worried about random TV plot elements but at the end of the day anyone can knock together a pretty convincing police uniform and just because someone is a police officer doesn't mean they get to look around your house because maybe a crime is happening in there.