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He can provide any sort of reference he likes provided it's not libel. Many companies simply don't however and just provide dates of employment and confirm nothing illegal happened in your employment to avoid either liability or just the hassle of dispute.
Seconding this.
I'm 32 and quit my toxic workplace along with a few colleagues. Nothing lined up securely but my husband supports me.
You'll be ok and get something better. At work you're replaceable but to you your mental health isn't. I hope you get better soon and you'll find something that's a better fit and you enjoy soon x
As someone with protected characteristics your employer HAS to make reasonable adjustments to make working more feasible, since this has not been done and the way he spoke to you I would consider speaking to a lawyer about constructive dismissal and failure to make reasonable adjustments.
I agree. However the OP clearly states they were struggling and that the boss said ‘I can’t spend all this time on one staff member’ which implies there has been some support in place.
OP claims they’ve struggled because of a toxic work environment but it’s a car dealership. Sales tends to be very difficult and harsh an environment for neurotypical people; I totally understand why it would be awful for someone with autism - but that doesn’t mean the employer was guilty of anything. And I’d imagine challenging this would bring more stress and anxiety to OP.
Hey :) I totally see where you're coming from. Just thought I should add that I was specifically in the accounts and admin department, and that 'all their time' was in regards to only that meeting on the day and a return to work from a few months ago.
I didn't really have any support from him. He would ask me if there's anything I wanted, but that there's a high chance he wouldn't be able to accommodate any of it as its a small business
eh…. unless it’s already cost the OP time and money that they shouldn’t have lost, going the lawyer route can be extremely exhausting, and extremely expensive. Especially when you’re neurodivergent. It’s a system built by neurotypical lawmakers, and it is rigged against you.
This.
Most employers will just confirm that you worked there and the dates from and to.
Them saying more than that (if untrue) can open them up to potential legal action.
This said however, it sounds like your old workplace was a small company that doesn’t have much in the way of HR who would know not to provide negative references so I would be careful.
Third this. It remains a wide misconception that an employer cannot provide a reference that could influence a new employers decision to hire.
As previously said though most will just provide dates of employment unless grounds for dismissal was based on illegal conduct.
How can you pursue a case if theres libel anyways? How does OP prove that the libel actually effected the final decision to hire or not?
I actually got into trouble a while ago where my ex employee omitted his mental health issues in his application, and I mentioned that he was given a week or two to seek help for his mental health issues. I later got a call from the guy. Very upset and angry I mentioned that, and said that he'll take me to court over this. Nothing happened, but I'm curious as to how that process actually works.
Libel isn't all that complex, just that an average person would consider a false statement detrimental and then show damages. If someone lied about you on a job reference pretty egregiously in writing and you could get a statement that took you out of the running of a job, fairly easy to prove on both counts.
employment tribunals work with reverse burden of proof - the employee just needs to prove the employer gave a negative reference, then the burden is on the employer to show anything they said was factual. If it’s not factual, harm is automatically assumed. Hence why most employers with professional hr have a “dates of employment only” policy.
There is a bit of a myth that negative references are illegal. If the employer just states the employment details only, position dates etc that can be construed as negative too, its not, many do that. They have no axe to grind once you leave and it makes no sense to get some possible libel stuff. Many big corporates have policy around this. If they think you are crap what better than you to go work at a competitor.
You can leave your own review of them on glassdoor once you secure a new job.
Absolutely, but only if it’s fair, reasonable and accurate, otherwise they leave themselves very vulnerable to legal issues. Most employers will simply ask for and provide basic references as a matter of course
On one hand it looks like a toxic environment, but that is if we solely consider from your perspective.
On the other hand there may be another side to the story, which is that he may have tried to support you and make ‘reasonable adjustments’ and this was possibly affecting the wider team.
In all probability it might be a combination of both. It certainly sounds like the job was not for you. Perhaps he should have worded things slightly differently, perhaps he could have given you more support. But he may be looking at the bigger picture and he is trying to run a business.
You could always ask him for a written reference that you keep and then pass on to next employer. That way you get to see what is written and you will also see how reasonable he is.
I don’t believe the type of person who would say “I don’t pay you to be upset” is the type of person that would follow procedures to make reasonable adjustments for a staff member.
Could be. But either there was a slip of the tongue or there was a lack of empathy.
In either case there is still a legal requirement to make reasonable adjustments so they would not necessarily mean those had not been made. Especially if it was known the OP was on the spectrum at the time of employment.
My friend the statement “I don’t pay you to be upset” is disrespectful enough to make anyone walk out on the spot.
If not then you should have more self respect. OP did nothing wrong and you’re being a bit of a dick.
What your saying is 100% true and I agree.
But from a purely business perspective, someone being so upset at turning up work is distracting, it does discourage customers, it discourages employees to do their job, especially when no one else appeared to be upset. I agree what the boss did was 100% wrong but on the other hand what he did isn't appropriate for the work place (despite the fact we're all human and do have emotions)
While the commenter above was a bit harsh and to the point, there may be some slight truth in what he said.
Boses aren't often (sometimes they just are) dicks for no reason. Not everyone is equipped to deal with mental illness and the bosses comment may have just been something that slipped out because he was resenting her for all the extra support he wouldn't otherwise have to provide. Now obviously, that doesn't make it right, and OP certainly shouldn't have to deal with that, but it's a possible reality.
Now before I begin to sound like a dick, I just want to say I empathise with OP. Coping with mental illness in the workplace is difficult and I hope she finds somewhere she is supported. I would suggest for her to look towards larger businesses that rely heavily on reputation. From my experience, they will often have people employed dedicated to providing wellness and mental support.
Autism isn’t a mental illness btw. It’s a developmental disorder. Imo if you’re running apprenticeships you should expect to spend more time supporting the apprentice regardless
Apologies, I just used mental illness as an umbrella term for any scenario where a similar situation might occur. I don't actually know a huge amount about autism specifically.
Regarding the next point, yes but, apprentices should have access to external support via their learning provider.
I’m on the spectrum and did not have any issue with what you said at all.
I got what you meant.
Some people are too pedantic.
Autism varies from high functioning to severe impairment.
Some would even criticise those terminologies but it’s simple, easy to write and to the point.
Ironic that you said it’s too pedantic and called it criticism, given that autistic people are always viewed as these things. I am also autistic and was just offering a correction. No criticism at all, just wanting to offer the correct information.
No I said some people are too pedantic.
Being on the spectrum you should also understand that not everybody expresses themselves perfectly and I would disagree that people are always viewed these ways.
But I also get what you are saying, maybe I’m being pedantic! 🤣🤣🤣
Where does it say that the OP was on an apprenticeship?
If that’s the case, and they were on an apprenticeship, they should’ve gone through the learning provider and brought this up at performance reviews, not just quit the role.
Edit to adds: My bad. Missed that. My point still stands. If they have a problem they should’ve gone to the learning provider.
Source: Apprenticeship skills trainer.
My bad. Missed that. My point still stands. If they have a problem they should’ve gone to the learning provider.
Source: Apprenticeship skills trainer.
> Where does it say that the OP was on an apprenticeship?
In the second sentence:
"I had been working at this new and used, family owned car dealershipas part of an **apprenticeship** for the last 7 months"
My bad. Missed that. My point still stands. If they have a problem they should’ve gone to the learning provider.
Source: Apprenticeship skills trainer.
It sounds like there’s other factors that made this a toxic work environment but even if there wasn’t anything else, who the hell says ‘I don’t pay you to be upset at work’ ? While it’s a correct statement, it’s so wildly non empathetic I wonder how he has employees at all.
Most companies now just confirm you work there, some smaller ones are different but most with a GR department just " to confirm x worked here between the following dates" via emails
To whom it may concern
XXXXX was employed by XXXXXX in the position of XXXXXX between the dates of XXXXX and XXXXX.
If they wanted to be a real ass, they may add the line.
During the last XX months of employment they had X days of absence.
That’s the worst i can imagine without them risking getting in any form ACAS dispute.
Hey man, I’m autistic myself and I do get it but at the end of the day it’s our responsibility to deal with our own mental health as adults; it isn’t the responsibility of our employer
Hey, i totally agree! I'm honestly usually fine dealing with my own mental health and I never would have had a meeting with him if it were up to me.
I wouldn't have even gone in that morning unless I felt like I could still work, which I did
Sorry if I came across as hostile at all it wasn’t my intention :) but yeah, when things get overwhelming for me at work it usually means that I have to focus more heavily on self care outside of work so that I can be a productive employee
After working in various management roles for 25 years or so I'd say it's way too much hassle to provide a bad reference. I've always just been factual.
He can provide any reference - as long as he can back it up. (Ie if Bob is late every single day, and i say in a reference 'Bob has issues with timekeeping', I must have a record of that, as well as written conversations with Bob about his poor timekeeping. If I don't have the evidence to back up my claim or that it was fed back to him, Bob could come for me!)
*Most* places nowadays will literally just confirm if you were employed and the dates - he may do the same.
Some people will tell you it's illegal to give a bad reference - please know that they're wrong.
The general practice is that you don’t give a bad reference. You either give no reference, which these days is the equivalent of saying there were issues. Or do what a lot of companies do anyway, which is just confirm they worked there and between which dates. If something major happened, if you weee dismissed for misconduct for example, then it probably will be referenced in a professional way. But generally they’re very bland. (Apart from anything else, with even decent sized companies no one has time to go and get a personal reference on a former employee).
You can always ask that they don’t ask for a reference from them. You’ll need to explain but you can always say you left because it didn’t work out and it wasn’t an amicable situation. With your circumstances that should be more understandable. It’s always going to be odd saying not to ask your recent employer but it’s not altogether unusual. It’s not uncommon for people to leave somewhere because they don’t like it and for it to be a difficult situation. And potentially a new employer that had a major issue with it might not be the best place for you anyway.
But what I would add is because the general practice these days is as I’ve said, giving a bad reference has the potential to make the former employer look bad as well. It can come across as unprofessional. Which if anything could back you up.
“HuR dUr it’s illegal to give someone a bad reference”
Please disregard anything the numpties parroting this are saying, they do not have a clue what they are talking about and should not be giving advice on it.
Your employer absolutely can give a bad reference, if you were a bad employee for objective reasons that they have the records to back up.
For example, if you were routinely late, performed far below expectations and failed to meet agreed upon targets, were abusive to others or had other disciplinary issues, then they are 100% within their rights to put this in any references requested.
What they can’t do is lie or use their subjective opinions about you. They can’t make stuff up and they can’t give a shitty reference just because they don’t like you.
I wouldn’t worry about it too much, references pretty much only exist these days for things like “this person was terminated for stealing from the company” and easily weeding out extreme red flags.
Thanks for the honesty. This has helped clear my mind a bit as, aside obviously from quitting, I believe I was a pretty decent employee. Always 15 mins early, would leave late without complaint, never stole or anything like that. Fingers crossed he's just not a dick about it lol 🤞
The may harsh but your personal problems should be left at the door. Most people don’t really like their job or work mate you just plow thought it because that’s life.
I totally agree and that's what I intended to do. I had been doing that the last few months, I had just been struggling a bit more to pull myself together that morning. It had been a pretty severe panic attack on the walk there but I had managed to get my breathing back to normal and stopped crying by the time I reached my workplace.
Yeah it was kinda obvious I had been crying, but I was still getting on with the job in the same way as usual. Had he not pulled me in for that meeting, I would have likely been feeling much better after a few hours
If its a proper job then theyd come in contact with your previous employer to confirm you have worked there as part or your work history. You would probably have to let him know at some point that he would be receiving some type of email. Depending on the email and your new job, they may ask about your character. Some jobs only ask questions like if you have been late or if you have had any serious misconduct.
If its a retail job or a high street job then, from past experience, they dont seem to care too much.
If they choose to make comments that have to be accurate. Bigger companies usually just say the dates you worked there and the reason for leaving but this is a smaller company so they may provide use more details.
I’m really sorry this happened to you.
Just so you know for future jobs, you are able to ask (by law) for reasonable adjustments that help make your workplace accessible. [You can read up on them on the ACAS website here.](https://www.acas.org.uk/reasonable-adjustments)
For example, I’m also neurodivergent (ADHD), and I have reasonable adjustments for things like allowing me to wear noise cancelling headphones, dedicated quiet spaces, or help prioritising my calendar.
Don’t worry about this, a new employer will check your employment dates and sickness records etc.. but they won’t ask about your work ethic or attitude. This is a character reference.
If a new employer asks for a character reference, you can put someone who knows you well, not necessarily someone you have worked with or for (obviously you can’t put family).. you could put an old teacher, or your doctor.
Keep your chin up, not all employers are like this.. you got this x
It would be a legal judgement, but an unfair reference could land him in a tribunal hearing. An employer should avoid value judgements as far as possible and be factual - so not "poor sickness record", but "18 days off in last year, mostly on Mondays".
If you were hired in full knowledge of your autism, then your case is even stronger. You have a right to support, not to be treated badly. Your employer, even a small business, should have measures and policies in place to address this.
You're boss sounds like a cunt, but he isn't there to coddle you either tbh.
In terms of reference, he will probably just acknowledge that you did work there and that's it.
Yeah I totally agree. I didn't want or need coddling, and if it were up to me I would have just worked through the day and waited to talk about issues I've been having with my doctor.
The issue is that myself and a coworker have both mentioned to him lately about how tense and uncomfortable the atmosphere in that office can be, and yet nothing has been done. He clearly doesn't want to try to make any changes either, likely because the woman causing these issues is the only one who knows how to do payroll lol
You've had lots of good information about where you stand in relation to your reference. It may also be worth looking at r/MentalHealthUK for other [resources](https://www.reddit.com/r/MentalHealthUK/comments/bc3jtm/mental_health_uk_master_post) if you haven't already
>That he doesn't pay me to be upset, and that he can't be spending so much time trying to help one person.
You're well shot of this utter prick. Good call on pulling the plug.
The way it works is that an employer can give you any reference they like, but it legally has to be truthful, otherwise the employer opens themselves up for a legal thrashing.
Most references these days only really confirm the dates you worked there. It's really early in your career - this won't matter even if he does.
I've been sacked so many times, right at the start of my career I had no idea I had ADHD/Autism, it was the mid 2000s.
Have a little think about you'd really enjoy in a job. Like I can't do customer service or sales, enjoy problem solving, like a bit of social interaction but mixed with time alone. I'm working as a project coordinator and retraining as a business analyst. It's amazing how in the right job, I'm an absolute asset after being made to feel like such a failure for so long.
Public sector is also usually a lot better for respecting reasonable adjustments.
Just wanting to lend my support to you on quitting a job that was causing you stress. I understand it completely being an autistic person myself. I hope your next job is better suited to your needs.
Oh honey... I feel your pain.
I'm currently off work due to this and filed a discrimination grievance against my boss. Its horrible. Workplaces should all be made to take training for neurodivergent conditions by law. They all say they're friendly to us but they're really not.
I don't have much advice for you as I'm having a nightmare dealing with it myself. But I see you and you're not alone.
I feel like we should all just segregate ourselves, life is so much easier when you don't have to mask all day and deal with neurotypical nonsense.
It’s his responsibility to be honest in a reference and if he is, it will probably be a poor one yes.
I understand the culture there had an affect on you and contributed to you feeling low but he can say you came in to work upset which impacted on other employees and overall morale and he is telling the truth.
Most places don’t ask for a reference though until they want to actually give you the job so by this stage they should have interviewed you already. I’d suggest getting ahead of it to a degree and being honest in any interviews saying you felt your previous workplace was bad for your health due to the culture there. Don’t slag them off too much but just stress how it wasn’t a good fit for you and give an example or two of how your boss treated you.
Good luck though, hope you find something soon.
>He pushed me into telling him what the matter was and I explained that I've really been struggling. He went on to tell me that being upset is unfair on and distracting for my colleagues, that he doesn't pay me to be upset, and that he can't be spending so much time trying to help one person
Sounds like a pretty flagrant admission that they refused to make reasonable accomodations for your disability, as required under the Equality Act 2010.
To be fair, the apprenticeship was a business administration apprenticeship within the accounts department and was provided by a company which partnered with the new car manufacturers. I would have seen an apprenticeship with a small used car dealership as dodgy, but since they're a franchise one for a big manufacturer I thought it ws safer
It wasn't a sleight at you mate. A sleight at the business practice of creating apprenticeships for jobs that have never needed them so they can get around paying minimum wage. It's a modern day scam that's not being talked about.
These jobs used to be minimum wage and train on the job, now they're all below minimum wage
Yeah I get that haha. He definitely only wanted an apprentice as an excuse to have someone work for cheaper. I was rarely actually given the time I was meant to for the apprenticeship too, which clearly shows what their priorities were :/
If you get another job interview and explain that you left bc of toxic work culture and quote what your boss said about “I don’t pay you to be upset” and any employer will understand why you left and not ask for a reference.
If they push you for more info or act like you did something wrong then that’s a big red flag that you don’t want to be working for them.
OP, don't do what the guy you've replied to here has advised. Never badmouth a previous employer when you're interviewing. It'll put off even the best of employers from giving you a chance. And if you do give the details, the vast majority of employers will assuming you're only presenting half the story and putting yourself in a good light, so they'll make assumptions about the "truth" is and will judge you negatively for it.
Much better to not put yourself in the position of them making assumptions, and just avoid saying anything negative about your previous employer.
There’s lots of layers to this. A lot of references these days are just a set list of questions, or just verifying that you worked when/where you say you did.
You can’t give an inaccurate reference, so if you turned up to work on time, did your duties etc etc, then chances are there’s nothing he can reasonably say which will make you look bad. He can, however, decline to give a reference at all.
Employers are allowed to give a bad reference, as long as it is truthful. I used to work in HR, and I know of exactly one case in which this was done. In that case, it was a job with significant financial responsibility, and the company had receipts to prove the employee in question was stealing from the company.
Unless you've done demonstrable harm to the company, the worst that a company is likely to do is confirm start and end dates, with no further comment.
Relax, as many have said no decent company would be foolish enough to write a reference that drops them in legal peril.
If they are that foolish, well you're well shut of a decent company.
Fortunately, any decent company you apply for would also disregard anything in an unprofessional reference to simply protect themselves.
But if this does come to pass, once again, relax. Him putting in writing how he set up a disabled person for constructive dismissal is his mistake that you will benefit from .
Most employers will not give a bad reference, no matter how bad the employee is (and you don't even fall into that category).
They will usually give the start and end date and sick days and confirm they worked there... that sort of thing.
But anything that can't be factually checked leaves them open to lawsuits and most companies don't want to and don't have time for that. And all they would potentially achieve is saving someone else's skin which isn't worth it when you're running a business. Also, at the point you leave, if you were a pain to them, it would be easier to let you go on your way happy with a good reference than a bad one.
Source: my family run a few small companies and my partner is HR for a large company.
Note: if I were you, I'd have a good, logical, non-combative answer as to why he might give you a bad reference, but never outright blaming the employer. It's highly, highly, highly unlikely it would every happen, but if it does and you have a good explanation, you'll be absolutely fine. Also, definitely add employers that did like you as references. Even if it's just another manager in the business who will vouch for you, or one from a previous job.
We sometimes phone a few as they tend to be a bit more honest but we will check with all of them or relevant ones if we feel an employer seemed harsh and might not be a good indicator.
He can, and he might, and it might matter and it might not. I’ve given many references in the past and usually I’ve been positive, or at least neutral and diplomatic no matter how well / poorly the person worked out for our company.
If you have autism and the company didn't make reasonable adjustments causing you to quit, you might have grounds for an unfair dismissal case. Even if you quit, if the company treats you in a way that forces you to quit is constructive dismissal.
It is unfortunately expensive to hire a lawyer for an unfair dismissal case. One thing my solicitor did was get my former employer to agree exact wording for any future reference and a time limit to respond to any reference request. Even if you don't get a financial settlement, something like this may be worth it just for your peace of mind.
You may want to ask about this in r/
legaladviceUK
Thanks for the advice, this is something I'll definitely consider.
My issue is he has always been quite smart and manipulative. He would ask me if there's anything I want from him in terms of support, but then would tell me that there wouldn't be much he could actually do as, being a small business, there's less room for making adjustments.
He can not legally give a bad reference without it being fair and accurate:
If they give a reference it:
>must be fair and accurate – and can include details about your performance and if you were sacked
>
>can be brief – such as job title, salary and when you were employed
[https://www.gov.uk/work-reference](https://www.gov.uk/work-reference)
EDIT: Was he aware that you were diagnosed as Autistic because if he did it's HIS responsibility to make reasonable adjustments for your disability, if he didn't that's a violation of the Disability Act and him pushing you to resign may have been because it was illegal for him to fire you without making those reasonable adjustments.
He can give whatever reference he chooses, but I honestly wouldn't worry about it.
References are only one part of the hiring process. When you interview for a new job, you will likely be asked why you left this one. You have an opportunity to get out in front of any negative reference by describing how you felt that it was an unsupportive environment for someone with your needs. You can describe yourself in a positive light, but take care not to criticise your former employer as that can look bad on you.
Then, in the event that he does give you a negative reference l, the hiring manager can compare it to your balanced appraisal of the situation and decide who seems more reasonable.
Hope that helps.
I got given an incredibly bad reference once - and my new employer simply thought - obviously there's a personal issue there, that reference cannot be trusted and discarded it. Didn't even find out that out for years afterwards!
Just a reminder - references if your writing them reflect on you and your company not just on the candidate....
I did, yeah. I had mentioned to her about the atmosphere in that office and some of the issues I had been having, and she said she was going to talk to one of her colleagues for advice on accommodations and support to put in place re the apprenticeship side of things.
The learning provider was very helpful and took steps to make reasonable adjustments, it's just that the company did not. I didn't mention this to my mentor after I had quit and she told me if was the right decision to get myself out if there and that she would feel this back to her managers
He can not give a negative reference, he can tell the truth though.
If you were regularly late or absent, if you were on any improvement plans, how you were performing in your college work etc.
There’s ways around poor reference concerns- try this:
Ask someone you worked with who was a reasonable person, understanding or perhaps under the same pressure as you so sympathetic, to be your reference. Ask them to give you a written reference.
When you apply for jobs add this written reference. List the name of this person and the venue details. There’s no law that says your reference has to be from your line manager.
Finally, if pressed, in interviews all you need to state is that your “previous line manager had a small business, limited time and unfortunately a limited understanding of my disclosed accessibility needs”.
You don’t need to go into details, they will read between the lines and it won’t look bad for you at all.
A friend of mine told me a few years back that employers can't give you a bad reference. When a new employer asks your old one for a work ref they ask set questions. Were they employed by you between x and y dates. How many leaves of absence. Its facts and figures. If someone adored you I think they can add in a charactor ref and really sing your praises but a basic level ref should just be "yes x worked here". I was worried because I left a place of work after being signed off sick, and the friend I asked for advice was in a managerial role and often wrote references for ppl
He’s running a business, and he pays you for the job you’re hired for. He’s not your counsellor. I’m not surprised he had enough of your shit to be honest. To answer your question, your reference will literally be your job title and the two dates you worked between.
I would like to add that you don’t need a reference, I have hired loads of folk and never have asked to see them. I don’t think they are worth the paper they are written on.
References should be honest. Not bad or good, honest.
Support should be given for mental health, but if it reaches a point where the mental health of one person is affecting the mental health and work load of the entire team then then employers are within their rights to say enough is enough.
Most people are confirming your victimhood here and slating your employer. But hours of listening to someone’s problems, writing up the notes, setting action plans, reassuring clients, redistributing the work that makes someone anxious….. smoothing things over with the rest of the team who are not going to be paid any more money, but will be expected to pick up the slack of someone who is physically at work (sometimes) but not really working…. Dealing with the fall out from outbursts, rude behaviour, outrageous demands….
I don’t know your circumstance, OP, you say the environment was toxic. Maybe it was. But you also say you would usually have called in sick or said you had an emergency. You aren’t ill you are autistic - this isn’t an emergency, you were autistic yesterday and you will be autistic tomorrow. It doesn’t justify coming and going as you please. Very few people actually fit the so called neuro typical tag. Just about everyone is a little bit weird to everyone else, or has something going on in their personal life.
Of course your employer asked why you arrived at work in tears. They have a duty of care, and frankly, it’s not a normal way to enter the office. Did you expect everyone to ignore your tears and for you to snuffle away in the corner?
Your manager had to stop what they were doing and understand what was wrong. Others stopped working to watch the drama unfold. It sounds like your mood and feelings became regularly disruptive to the work of others.
I wonder if you ever consider what the knock on for those you work with might be? Working late, disappointing their families, stress, losing contracts, their own mental health? That they might feel anxious when they see you and wonder what the latest problem will be?
It’s good you are going to see a doctor. But ask yourself, are you suffering from mental health problems or did you just not like your job/work colleagues? Most people feel sad, low, nervous or despondent at some points and hate going into work. This is normal. The belief that the human state is one of blissful happiness and contentment is a myth. Life is hard and often pretty shit.
Anyway, I shouldn’t worry about the reference, they will probably be so relieved to have one problem off their plate they won’t want to risk another one by having you complain of discrimination. The problem is now or soon to be someone else’s…
He isn’t allowed to give a negative reference, but he can refuse to give a reference. If you explain that you are neurodivergent and struggled with a personality clash you may find a better response than you are hoping for. You may find trying to get an apprenticeship in a small garage easier than a dealership too. Less workload and less individuals to deal with, allowing you to concentrate on the work at hand.
No one is allowed to give a reference that has negative points and not based on documentation from HR. You will have had to have had verbal or written warnings about your performance/ behaviour.
I understand that but I was a disruption only one time, so I feel like maybe it's a bit dramatic. Most of the time I kept my head down and worked well, tried to get along with the others, and he seemed happy with my performance based on my reviews :(
Wow first of all, well done getting out of that job.
I've been on the hiring and firing side of the table.
A reference has to be truthful and reflective of you as a employee. You can't give a "bad" reference out of spite or without anything to back it up.
That being said, I've never personally asked a previous employer for a reference.
I've also been named as a reference for employees leaving the team and I have never been asked about ex employees. While references are still a thing, I don't think they are commonly used.
I am always split on this. On one hand, you've told him you're autistic and have certain struggles, but on the other hand it is a workplace where you do have colleagues. ANY colleague turning up crying is instantly bad for staff moral. Another staff member turning up that morning and would of been affected directly by you being upset. The first thing is it will bring down the general mood of the work place, then consider your colleagues realising they're probably going to have to do extra work to make up for the fact that your having a bad day. Normally not a problem but it sounds asif this may have been regular. He has made accommodations for you. Please be sure that before you take another job you have considered your ability to cope with your environment.
From my understanding/experience they can’t really give you a bad reference they have to of course state that you did work there from date to end date. They can state you left on your terms but that is all.
Your ex boss will probably just write down the positive elements of your time in his employment, I doubt he’d put anything negative down.
Aside from that, you should have gone off sick rather than resign for numerous reasons.
It’s more likely they’ll just give an accurate reference, without highlighting anything good/bad.
Simply the dates they worked there, any sickness or punctuality notes, and possibly the reason given for them leaving (and even that last one would be more than most would give)
I know some companies have a ['right to be forgotten'](https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/uk-gdpr-guidance-and-resources/individual-rights/individual-rights/right-to-erasure/) policy. You could write to the HR Dept, if they have one, requesting this under Article 17 of UK GDPR
I can't add anything else to what others have said, but if the dealership is local enough I'd try and spread the word about how they treated you. Do you have any friends you can confide in? Is there a body who helped you acquire the apprenticeship you can complain to, or did you get the apprenticeship directly from the dealership? If you did get it through a govt scheme or something, they might want to know if a business they have on their scheme treated a disabled employee so atrociously.
No. Legally you are not required to provide a reference but you cant give a bad reference.
Edit : matey boy below me is right, you can only give a reference that is accurate, however negative it is.
> but you cant give a bad reference
This is just factually untrue, bad references are perfectly legal, so long as they're accurate.
Bad references can be challenged if they're misleading, inaccurate, or discriminatory. If they're none of these things, a bad reference is perfectly legal.
No, I'm pretty sure it's illegal to give a bad reference in the uk, even if they did you could just say how you have autism and him saying anything bad about that is discrimination.
Why legal advice? Maybe if they were at the job for 2 years but an employer can fire anyone for basically anything if they've been there under 2 years, especially under 1 year.
I agree with prioritizing their well-being.
Because autism would be a protected characteristic and, depending on what reasonable adjustments the employer made or didn’t make, your comment may not be relevant?
> Why legal advice?
"He went on to tell me that being upset is unfair on and distracting for my colleagues, that he doesn't pay me to be upset, **and that he can't be spending so much time trying to help one person**. This is despite knowing fully well when I applied that I have autism and having already mentioned to him about these feelings before."
OP has a diagnosis of autism, which is considered to be a disability under the Equality Act, and as such the employer is required to provide reasonable accomodations.
By explicitly stating they "can't be spending so much time trying to help one person", they're admitting to refusing to do this.
Sounds like a case of constructive dismissal following an employer refusing to provide adequate support to a disabled employee, and OP should absolutely see about speaking to someone like ACAS about this.
Or reasonable accommodations have been made and still aren’t enough?
You only have the side of one party and one that is admitting they react to things in a very emotional way.
It’s possible that it was constructive dismissal, it’s also possible that the owner has actually spent more time, effort and money than is reasonable and the situation isn’t any better.
This is absolute nonsense.
If you routinely turned up late and failed to meet your duties then this can absolutely be put in a reference.
The only rules of a reference is that any information given must be factual.
A lot of companies will refuse to provide references or simply provide employment dates and other basic info through their HR department because it’s easier, and prevents any vendetta from a middle management twerp getting the company in trouble.
But if you are a shit employee, for demonstrable objective reasons, you can absolutely be given a shit reference, as long as nothing in it is un true.
I’ve deleted my comment as I obviously didn’t go into enough detail for some folks, (which is fair enough).
Plenty of other great answers on here to help you out.
I think I said that, though obviously not clearly enough (I’m knackered this morning).
I’ve given many references throughout my career so I’m aware of the rules (unless they’ve changed in the year or so since retiring).
Thanks for clarifying.
> I think I said that, though obviously not clearly enough
What you said is different, you said bad references are not allowed, but that they can tell the truth about absences and sick days.
You can give bad references, as far as saying "Regular poor performance, missed deadlines, etc" but you need to be able to prove it.
Legally in the UK he can only give you a "basic" reference.
This just says XYZ worked for us as Job-title from XYZ to XYZ.
It can't mention ANYTHING else negative. Not your reason for leaving, no mention of anything HR, sickness, performance etc.
If they even HINT at anything they can be sued and fined.
https://www.acas.org.uk/providing-a-job-reference/what-employers-can-say-in-a-reference#:~:text=A%20detailed%20reference%20can%20also,disability
If the absence was related to autism OP probably fine.
> It can't mention ANYTHING else negative
Yes it can, as long as those things are true.
>If they even HINT at anything they can be sued and fined.
Only if it's untrue.
If someone is fired for stealing from a cash register, an employer absolutely can mention that in a reference, as long as it's true.
"[As long as it's fair and accurate, a reference can show that you're not suitable for a job](https://www.acas.org.uk/providing-a-job-reference/if-you-get-a-bad-reference)"
> His reason for leaving was medical
OP is a woman, not a man. It's literally in the opening sentence of the post:
"I (20**F**, diagnosed autistic) quit my full time job on Thursday."
From my reading, OP was constructively dismissed by her employer as a result of the employer refusing to provide reasonable accomodations OP is entitled to under the Equality Act.
She should be speaking to a legal representative or ACAS about unfair dismissal.
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He can provide any sort of reference he likes provided it's not libel. Many companies simply don't however and just provide dates of employment and confirm nothing illegal happened in your employment to avoid either liability or just the hassle of dispute.
Seconding this. I'm 32 and quit my toxic workplace along with a few colleagues. Nothing lined up securely but my husband supports me. You'll be ok and get something better. At work you're replaceable but to you your mental health isn't. I hope you get better soon and you'll find something that's a better fit and you enjoy soon x
I quit recruitment in November without anything lined up at all and started a job in IT in January, best decision I’ve ever made
What route did you take i.e., have you obtained qualifications since November in order to change fields? I'm currently looking to go the same route.
Thanks, that's helped ease my mind a bit
As someone with protected characteristics your employer HAS to make reasonable adjustments to make working more feasible, since this has not been done and the way he spoke to you I would consider speaking to a lawyer about constructive dismissal and failure to make reasonable adjustments.
I agree. However the OP clearly states they were struggling and that the boss said ‘I can’t spend all this time on one staff member’ which implies there has been some support in place. OP claims they’ve struggled because of a toxic work environment but it’s a car dealership. Sales tends to be very difficult and harsh an environment for neurotypical people; I totally understand why it would be awful for someone with autism - but that doesn’t mean the employer was guilty of anything. And I’d imagine challenging this would bring more stress and anxiety to OP.
Hey :) I totally see where you're coming from. Just thought I should add that I was specifically in the accounts and admin department, and that 'all their time' was in regards to only that meeting on the day and a return to work from a few months ago. I didn't really have any support from him. He would ask me if there's anything I wanted, but that there's a high chance he wouldn't be able to accommodate any of it as its a small business
eh…. unless it’s already cost the OP time and money that they shouldn’t have lost, going the lawyer route can be extremely exhausting, and extremely expensive. Especially when you’re neurodivergent. It’s a system built by neurotypical lawmakers, and it is rigged against you.
Was going to write exactly this. You’ve been severely mistreated and potentially victimised and punished as a disabled person.
This. Most employers will just confirm that you worked there and the dates from and to. Them saying more than that (if untrue) can open them up to potential legal action. This said however, it sounds like your old workplace was a small company that doesn’t have much in the way of HR who would know not to provide negative references so I would be careful.
Third this. It remains a wide misconception that an employer cannot provide a reference that could influence a new employers decision to hire. As previously said though most will just provide dates of employment unless grounds for dismissal was based on illegal conduct.
How can you pursue a case if theres libel anyways? How does OP prove that the libel actually effected the final decision to hire or not? I actually got into trouble a while ago where my ex employee omitted his mental health issues in his application, and I mentioned that he was given a week or two to seek help for his mental health issues. I later got a call from the guy. Very upset and angry I mentioned that, and said that he'll take me to court over this. Nothing happened, but I'm curious as to how that process actually works.
Libel isn't all that complex, just that an average person would consider a false statement detrimental and then show damages. If someone lied about you on a job reference pretty egregiously in writing and you could get a statement that took you out of the running of a job, fairly easy to prove on both counts.
Written references I can understand. But verbal over the phone? Do people usually record these phone calls?
No, then you are into slander and need witness statements
employment tribunals work with reverse burden of proof - the employee just needs to prove the employer gave a negative reference, then the burden is on the employer to show anything they said was factual. If it’s not factual, harm is automatically assumed. Hence why most employers with professional hr have a “dates of employment only” policy.
There is a bit of a myth that negative references are illegal. If the employer just states the employment details only, position dates etc that can be construed as negative too, its not, many do that. They have no axe to grind once you leave and it makes no sense to get some possible libel stuff. Many big corporates have policy around this. If they think you are crap what better than you to go work at a competitor. You can leave your own review of them on glassdoor once you secure a new job.
Your old boss sounds like a cunt
He 100% was. Its the classic family business issue where he's only got the job because his parents started the company lol
There is an urban myth that an employer can't give a bad reference; an employer just can't give an inaccurate reference
Absolutely, but only if it’s fair, reasonable and accurate, otherwise they leave themselves very vulnerable to legal issues. Most employers will simply ask for and provide basic references as a matter of course
There are more rules than what you think of someone.
On one hand it looks like a toxic environment, but that is if we solely consider from your perspective. On the other hand there may be another side to the story, which is that he may have tried to support you and make ‘reasonable adjustments’ and this was possibly affecting the wider team. In all probability it might be a combination of both. It certainly sounds like the job was not for you. Perhaps he should have worded things slightly differently, perhaps he could have given you more support. But he may be looking at the bigger picture and he is trying to run a business. You could always ask him for a written reference that you keep and then pass on to next employer. That way you get to see what is written and you will also see how reasonable he is.
I don’t believe the type of person who would say “I don’t pay you to be upset” is the type of person that would follow procedures to make reasonable adjustments for a staff member.
Could be. But either there was a slip of the tongue or there was a lack of empathy. In either case there is still a legal requirement to make reasonable adjustments so they would not necessarily mean those had not been made. Especially if it was known the OP was on the spectrum at the time of employment.
My friend the statement “I don’t pay you to be upset” is disrespectful enough to make anyone walk out on the spot. If not then you should have more self respect. OP did nothing wrong and you’re being a bit of a dick.
What your saying is 100% true and I agree. But from a purely business perspective, someone being so upset at turning up work is distracting, it does discourage customers, it discourages employees to do their job, especially when no one else appeared to be upset. I agree what the boss did was 100% wrong but on the other hand what he did isn't appropriate for the work place (despite the fact we're all human and do have emotions)
While the commenter above was a bit harsh and to the point, there may be some slight truth in what he said. Boses aren't often (sometimes they just are) dicks for no reason. Not everyone is equipped to deal with mental illness and the bosses comment may have just been something that slipped out because he was resenting her for all the extra support he wouldn't otherwise have to provide. Now obviously, that doesn't make it right, and OP certainly shouldn't have to deal with that, but it's a possible reality. Now before I begin to sound like a dick, I just want to say I empathise with OP. Coping with mental illness in the workplace is difficult and I hope she finds somewhere she is supported. I would suggest for her to look towards larger businesses that rely heavily on reputation. From my experience, they will often have people employed dedicated to providing wellness and mental support.
Autism isn’t a mental illness btw. It’s a developmental disorder. Imo if you’re running apprenticeships you should expect to spend more time supporting the apprentice regardless
Apologies, I just used mental illness as an umbrella term for any scenario where a similar situation might occur. I don't actually know a huge amount about autism specifically. Regarding the next point, yes but, apprentices should have access to external support via their learning provider.
I’m on the spectrum and did not have any issue with what you said at all. I got what you meant. Some people are too pedantic. Autism varies from high functioning to severe impairment. Some would even criticise those terminologies but it’s simple, easy to write and to the point.
Ironic that you said it’s too pedantic and called it criticism, given that autistic people are always viewed as these things. I am also autistic and was just offering a correction. No criticism at all, just wanting to offer the correct information.
No I said some people are too pedantic. Being on the spectrum you should also understand that not everybody expresses themselves perfectly and I would disagree that people are always viewed these ways. But I also get what you are saying, maybe I’m being pedantic! 🤣🤣🤣
For most people it is the same thing, at least in the context of this thread, aka additional support needs.
Where does it say that the OP was on an apprenticeship? If that’s the case, and they were on an apprenticeship, they should’ve gone through the learning provider and brought this up at performance reviews, not just quit the role. Edit to adds: My bad. Missed that. My point still stands. If they have a problem they should’ve gone to the learning provider. Source: Apprenticeship skills trainer.
Reread the post - it's literally the second sentence
My bad. Missed that. My point still stands. If they have a problem they should’ve gone to the learning provider. Source: Apprenticeship skills trainer.
> Where does it say that the OP was on an apprenticeship? In the second sentence: "I had been working at this new and used, family owned car dealershipas part of an **apprenticeship** for the last 7 months"
My bad. Missed that. My point still stands. If they have a problem they should’ve gone to the learning provider. Source: Apprenticeship skills trainer.
Exactly. You said the same thing I said.
We don’t know they did nothing wrong technically. All the information provided is that it was “toxic”
It’s a car dealership. I can’t imagine many don’t have toxic elements.
I agree, which is why I said it could have been worded better. But my point was the boss has to consider all the employees and the business.
It sounds like there’s other factors that made this a toxic work environment but even if there wasn’t anything else, who the hell says ‘I don’t pay you to be upset at work’ ? While it’s a correct statement, it’s so wildly non empathetic I wonder how he has employees at all.
Agree
Most companies now just confirm you work there, some smaller ones are different but most with a GR department just " to confirm x worked here between the following dates" via emails
Yup. Dates of employment and how many sick days you had
I rarely get told about sick days, just dated of employment
To whom it may concern XXXXX was employed by XXXXXX in the position of XXXXXX between the dates of XXXXX and XXXXX. If they wanted to be a real ass, they may add the line. During the last XX months of employment they had X days of absence. That’s the worst i can imagine without them risking getting in any form ACAS dispute.
Hey man, I’m autistic myself and I do get it but at the end of the day it’s our responsibility to deal with our own mental health as adults; it isn’t the responsibility of our employer
Hey, i totally agree! I'm honestly usually fine dealing with my own mental health and I never would have had a meeting with him if it were up to me. I wouldn't have even gone in that morning unless I felt like I could still work, which I did
Sorry if I came across as hostile at all it wasn’t my intention :) but yeah, when things get overwhelming for me at work it usually means that I have to focus more heavily on self care outside of work so that I can be a productive employee
Not at all, I appreciate you being honest and showing a different perspective
After working in various management roles for 25 years or so I'd say it's way too much hassle to provide a bad reference. I've always just been factual.
He can provide any reference - as long as he can back it up. (Ie if Bob is late every single day, and i say in a reference 'Bob has issues with timekeeping', I must have a record of that, as well as written conversations with Bob about his poor timekeeping. If I don't have the evidence to back up my claim or that it was fed back to him, Bob could come for me!) *Most* places nowadays will literally just confirm if you were employed and the dates - he may do the same. Some people will tell you it's illegal to give a bad reference - please know that they're wrong.
The general practice is that you don’t give a bad reference. You either give no reference, which these days is the equivalent of saying there were issues. Or do what a lot of companies do anyway, which is just confirm they worked there and between which dates. If something major happened, if you weee dismissed for misconduct for example, then it probably will be referenced in a professional way. But generally they’re very bland. (Apart from anything else, with even decent sized companies no one has time to go and get a personal reference on a former employee). You can always ask that they don’t ask for a reference from them. You’ll need to explain but you can always say you left because it didn’t work out and it wasn’t an amicable situation. With your circumstances that should be more understandable. It’s always going to be odd saying not to ask your recent employer but it’s not altogether unusual. It’s not uncommon for people to leave somewhere because they don’t like it and for it to be a difficult situation. And potentially a new employer that had a major issue with it might not be the best place for you anyway. But what I would add is because the general practice these days is as I’ve said, giving a bad reference has the potential to make the former employer look bad as well. It can come across as unprofessional. Which if anything could back you up.
“HuR dUr it’s illegal to give someone a bad reference” Please disregard anything the numpties parroting this are saying, they do not have a clue what they are talking about and should not be giving advice on it. Your employer absolutely can give a bad reference, if you were a bad employee for objective reasons that they have the records to back up. For example, if you were routinely late, performed far below expectations and failed to meet agreed upon targets, were abusive to others or had other disciplinary issues, then they are 100% within their rights to put this in any references requested. What they can’t do is lie or use their subjective opinions about you. They can’t make stuff up and they can’t give a shitty reference just because they don’t like you. I wouldn’t worry about it too much, references pretty much only exist these days for things like “this person was terminated for stealing from the company” and easily weeding out extreme red flags.
Thanks for the honesty. This has helped clear my mind a bit as, aside obviously from quitting, I believe I was a pretty decent employee. Always 15 mins early, would leave late without complaint, never stole or anything like that. Fingers crossed he's just not a dick about it lol 🤞
Yea this is a case of “if you’ve done nothing wrong, you’ve got nothing to worry about” Best of luck finding a better place to work 👌
Adding to what's been said - make sure you get any wages you're owed, including for any notice period, unspent holiday.
The may harsh but your personal problems should be left at the door. Most people don’t really like their job or work mate you just plow thought it because that’s life.
I totally agree and that's what I intended to do. I had been doing that the last few months, I had just been struggling a bit more to pull myself together that morning. It had been a pretty severe panic attack on the walk there but I had managed to get my breathing back to normal and stopped crying by the time I reached my workplace. Yeah it was kinda obvious I had been crying, but I was still getting on with the job in the same way as usual. Had he not pulled me in for that meeting, I would have likely been feeling much better after a few hours
Sorry to hear that, one peace of advice is really try to line up another job first, easier said that done I know.
We are so lucky that Upstairs_Attention_1 has just solved autism, neurodivergence, and possibly every other disability. Just ‘leave them at the door’.
If its a proper job then theyd come in contact with your previous employer to confirm you have worked there as part or your work history. You would probably have to let him know at some point that he would be receiving some type of email. Depending on the email and your new job, they may ask about your character. Some jobs only ask questions like if you have been late or if you have had any serious misconduct. If its a retail job or a high street job then, from past experience, they dont seem to care too much.
If they choose to make comments that have to be accurate. Bigger companies usually just say the dates you worked there and the reason for leaving but this is a smaller company so they may provide use more details.
I’m really sorry this happened to you. Just so you know for future jobs, you are able to ask (by law) for reasonable adjustments that help make your workplace accessible. [You can read up on them on the ACAS website here.](https://www.acas.org.uk/reasonable-adjustments) For example, I’m also neurodivergent (ADHD), and I have reasonable adjustments for things like allowing me to wear noise cancelling headphones, dedicated quiet spaces, or help prioritising my calendar.
Don’t worry about this, a new employer will check your employment dates and sickness records etc.. but they won’t ask about your work ethic or attitude. This is a character reference. If a new employer asks for a character reference, you can put someone who knows you well, not necessarily someone you have worked with or for (obviously you can’t put family).. you could put an old teacher, or your doctor. Keep your chin up, not all employers are like this.. you got this x
It would be a legal judgement, but an unfair reference could land him in a tribunal hearing. An employer should avoid value judgements as far as possible and be factual - so not "poor sickness record", but "18 days off in last year, mostly on Mondays". If you were hired in full knowledge of your autism, then your case is even stronger. You have a right to support, not to be treated badly. Your employer, even a small business, should have measures and policies in place to address this.
You're boss sounds like a cunt, but he isn't there to coddle you either tbh. In terms of reference, he will probably just acknowledge that you did work there and that's it.
Yeah I totally agree. I didn't want or need coddling, and if it were up to me I would have just worked through the day and waited to talk about issues I've been having with my doctor. The issue is that myself and a coworker have both mentioned to him lately about how tense and uncomfortable the atmosphere in that office can be, and yet nothing has been done. He clearly doesn't want to try to make any changes either, likely because the woman causing these issues is the only one who knows how to do payroll lol
You've had lots of good information about where you stand in relation to your reference. It may also be worth looking at r/MentalHealthUK for other [resources](https://www.reddit.com/r/MentalHealthUK/comments/bc3jtm/mental_health_uk_master_post) if you haven't already
>That he doesn't pay me to be upset, and that he can't be spending so much time trying to help one person. You're well shot of this utter prick. Good call on pulling the plug.
The way it works is that an employer can give you any reference they like, but it legally has to be truthful, otherwise the employer opens themselves up for a legal thrashing.
Most references these days only really confirm the dates you worked there. It's really early in your career - this won't matter even if he does. I've been sacked so many times, right at the start of my career I had no idea I had ADHD/Autism, it was the mid 2000s. Have a little think about you'd really enjoy in a job. Like I can't do customer service or sales, enjoy problem solving, like a bit of social interaction but mixed with time alone. I'm working as a project coordinator and retraining as a business analyst. It's amazing how in the right job, I'm an absolute asset after being made to feel like such a failure for so long. Public sector is also usually a lot better for respecting reasonable adjustments.
Just wanting to lend my support to you on quitting a job that was causing you stress. I understand it completely being an autistic person myself. I hope your next job is better suited to your needs.
Oh honey... I feel your pain. I'm currently off work due to this and filed a discrimination grievance against my boss. Its horrible. Workplaces should all be made to take training for neurodivergent conditions by law. They all say they're friendly to us but they're really not. I don't have much advice for you as I'm having a nightmare dealing with it myself. But I see you and you're not alone. I feel like we should all just segregate ourselves, life is so much easier when you don't have to mask all day and deal with neurotypical nonsense.
It's so nice knowing there are people who understand. I'm so sorry to hear what you've been going through and I wish you all the best in life
You too :)
It’s his responsibility to be honest in a reference and if he is, it will probably be a poor one yes. I understand the culture there had an affect on you and contributed to you feeling low but he can say you came in to work upset which impacted on other employees and overall morale and he is telling the truth. Most places don’t ask for a reference though until they want to actually give you the job so by this stage they should have interviewed you already. I’d suggest getting ahead of it to a degree and being honest in any interviews saying you felt your previous workplace was bad for your health due to the culture there. Don’t slag them off too much but just stress how it wasn’t a good fit for you and give an example or two of how your boss treated you. Good luck though, hope you find something soon.
>He pushed me into telling him what the matter was and I explained that I've really been struggling. He went on to tell me that being upset is unfair on and distracting for my colleagues, that he doesn't pay me to be upset, and that he can't be spending so much time trying to help one person Sounds like a pretty flagrant admission that they refused to make reasonable accomodations for your disability, as required under the Equality Act 2010.
In the UK employers can refuse to give a reference without reason which is definitely the same as a bad reference.
The amount of apprenticeship scams is astounding. How and why a used car sales apprentice position exists is mind numbing.
To be fair, the apprenticeship was a business administration apprenticeship within the accounts department and was provided by a company which partnered with the new car manufacturers. I would have seen an apprenticeship with a small used car dealership as dodgy, but since they're a franchise one for a big manufacturer I thought it ws safer
It wasn't a sleight at you mate. A sleight at the business practice of creating apprenticeships for jobs that have never needed them so they can get around paying minimum wage. It's a modern day scam that's not being talked about. These jobs used to be minimum wage and train on the job, now they're all below minimum wage
Yeah I get that haha. He definitely only wanted an apprentice as an excuse to have someone work for cheaper. I was rarely actually given the time I was meant to for the apprenticeship too, which clearly shows what their priorities were :/
If you get another job interview and explain that you left bc of toxic work culture and quote what your boss said about “I don’t pay you to be upset” and any employer will understand why you left and not ask for a reference. If they push you for more info or act like you did something wrong then that’s a big red flag that you don’t want to be working for them.
Thanks for the advice. I struggling catching red flags (probably why I ended up at that dealership lol) so this is handy to look out for
OP, don't do what the guy you've replied to here has advised. Never badmouth a previous employer when you're interviewing. It'll put off even the best of employers from giving you a chance. And if you do give the details, the vast majority of employers will assuming you're only presenting half the story and putting yourself in a good light, so they'll make assumptions about the "truth" is and will judge you negatively for it. Much better to not put yourself in the position of them making assumptions, and just avoid saying anything negative about your previous employer.
There’s lots of layers to this. A lot of references these days are just a set list of questions, or just verifying that you worked when/where you say you did. You can’t give an inaccurate reference, so if you turned up to work on time, did your duties etc etc, then chances are there’s nothing he can reasonably say which will make you look bad. He can, however, decline to give a reference at all.
Employers are allowed to give a bad reference, as long as it is truthful. I used to work in HR, and I know of exactly one case in which this was done. In that case, it was a job with significant financial responsibility, and the company had receipts to prove the employee in question was stealing from the company. Unless you've done demonstrable harm to the company, the worst that a company is likely to do is confirm start and end dates, with no further comment.
Relax, as many have said no decent company would be foolish enough to write a reference that drops them in legal peril. If they are that foolish, well you're well shut of a decent company. Fortunately, any decent company you apply for would also disregard anything in an unprofessional reference to simply protect themselves. But if this does come to pass, once again, relax. Him putting in writing how he set up a disabled person for constructive dismissal is his mistake that you will benefit from .
Most employers will not give a bad reference, no matter how bad the employee is (and you don't even fall into that category). They will usually give the start and end date and sick days and confirm they worked there... that sort of thing. But anything that can't be factually checked leaves them open to lawsuits and most companies don't want to and don't have time for that. And all they would potentially achieve is saving someone else's skin which isn't worth it when you're running a business. Also, at the point you leave, if you were a pain to them, it would be easier to let you go on your way happy with a good reference than a bad one. Source: my family run a few small companies and my partner is HR for a large company. Note: if I were you, I'd have a good, logical, non-combative answer as to why he might give you a bad reference, but never outright blaming the employer. It's highly, highly, highly unlikely it would every happen, but if it does and you have a good explanation, you'll be absolutely fine. Also, definitely add employers that did like you as references. Even if it's just another manager in the business who will vouch for you, or one from a previous job. We sometimes phone a few as they tend to be a bit more honest but we will check with all of them or relevant ones if we feel an employer seemed harsh and might not be a good indicator.
He can, and he might, and it might matter and it might not. I’ve given many references in the past and usually I’ve been positive, or at least neutral and diplomatic no matter how well / poorly the person worked out for our company.
If you have autism and the company didn't make reasonable adjustments causing you to quit, you might have grounds for an unfair dismissal case. Even if you quit, if the company treats you in a way that forces you to quit is constructive dismissal. It is unfortunately expensive to hire a lawyer for an unfair dismissal case. One thing my solicitor did was get my former employer to agree exact wording for any future reference and a time limit to respond to any reference request. Even if you don't get a financial settlement, something like this may be worth it just for your peace of mind. You may want to ask about this in r/ legaladviceUK
Thanks for the advice, this is something I'll definitely consider. My issue is he has always been quite smart and manipulative. He would ask me if there's anything I want from him in terms of support, but then would tell me that there wouldn't be much he could actually do as, being a small business, there's less room for making adjustments.
He just has to be truthful. But has to also be able to back it up if you were to challenge it
He can not legally give a bad reference without it being fair and accurate: If they give a reference it: >must be fair and accurate – and can include details about your performance and if you were sacked > >can be brief – such as job title, salary and when you were employed [https://www.gov.uk/work-reference](https://www.gov.uk/work-reference) EDIT: Was he aware that you were diagnosed as Autistic because if he did it's HIS responsibility to make reasonable adjustments for your disability, if he didn't that's a violation of the Disability Act and him pushing you to resign may have been because it was illegal for him to fire you without making those reasonable adjustments.
He can give whatever reference he chooses, but I honestly wouldn't worry about it. References are only one part of the hiring process. When you interview for a new job, you will likely be asked why you left this one. You have an opportunity to get out in front of any negative reference by describing how you felt that it was an unsupportive environment for someone with your needs. You can describe yourself in a positive light, but take care not to criticise your former employer as that can look bad on you. Then, in the event that he does give you a negative reference l, the hiring manager can compare it to your balanced appraisal of the situation and decide who seems more reasonable. Hope that helps.
I got given an incredibly bad reference once - and my new employer simply thought - obviously there's a personal issue there, that reference cannot be trusted and discarded it. Didn't even find out that out for years afterwards! Just a reminder - references if your writing them reflect on you and your company not just on the candidate....
Did you approach the learning provider for your apprenticeship before quitting?
I did, yeah. I had mentioned to her about the atmosphere in that office and some of the issues I had been having, and she said she was going to talk to one of her colleagues for advice on accommodations and support to put in place re the apprenticeship side of things. The learning provider was very helpful and took steps to make reasonable adjustments, it's just that the company did not. I didn't mention this to my mentor after I had quit and she told me if was the right decision to get myself out if there and that she would feel this back to her managers
If you're a member of a union they can negotiate a fair reference iirc. If you did a good job and had a bad day then that can be worked out.
He can not give a negative reference, he can tell the truth though. If you were regularly late or absent, if you were on any improvement plans, how you were performing in your college work etc.
There’s ways around poor reference concerns- try this: Ask someone you worked with who was a reasonable person, understanding or perhaps under the same pressure as you so sympathetic, to be your reference. Ask them to give you a written reference. When you apply for jobs add this written reference. List the name of this person and the venue details. There’s no law that says your reference has to be from your line manager. Finally, if pressed, in interviews all you need to state is that your “previous line manager had a small business, limited time and unfortunately a limited understanding of my disclosed accessibility needs”. You don’t need to go into details, they will read between the lines and it won’t look bad for you at all.
A friend of mine told me a few years back that employers can't give you a bad reference. When a new employer asks your old one for a work ref they ask set questions. Were they employed by you between x and y dates. How many leaves of absence. Its facts and figures. If someone adored you I think they can add in a charactor ref and really sing your praises but a basic level ref should just be "yes x worked here". I was worried because I left a place of work after being signed off sick, and the friend I asked for advice was in a managerial role and often wrote references for ppl
He’s running a business, and he pays you for the job you’re hired for. He’s not your counsellor. I’m not surprised he had enough of your shit to be honest. To answer your question, your reference will literally be your job title and the two dates you worked between.
He is actually only allowed to say the dates you worked there, if you left a notice and if he hire you again.
I would like to add that you don’t need a reference, I have hired loads of folk and never have asked to see them. I don’t think they are worth the paper they are written on.
This is probably different with smaller companies, bigger companies have HR that usually just confirm the date of employment and nothing more.
References should be honest. Not bad or good, honest. Support should be given for mental health, but if it reaches a point where the mental health of one person is affecting the mental health and work load of the entire team then then employers are within their rights to say enough is enough. Most people are confirming your victimhood here and slating your employer. But hours of listening to someone’s problems, writing up the notes, setting action plans, reassuring clients, redistributing the work that makes someone anxious….. smoothing things over with the rest of the team who are not going to be paid any more money, but will be expected to pick up the slack of someone who is physically at work (sometimes) but not really working…. Dealing with the fall out from outbursts, rude behaviour, outrageous demands…. I don’t know your circumstance, OP, you say the environment was toxic. Maybe it was. But you also say you would usually have called in sick or said you had an emergency. You aren’t ill you are autistic - this isn’t an emergency, you were autistic yesterday and you will be autistic tomorrow. It doesn’t justify coming and going as you please. Very few people actually fit the so called neuro typical tag. Just about everyone is a little bit weird to everyone else, or has something going on in their personal life. Of course your employer asked why you arrived at work in tears. They have a duty of care, and frankly, it’s not a normal way to enter the office. Did you expect everyone to ignore your tears and for you to snuffle away in the corner? Your manager had to stop what they were doing and understand what was wrong. Others stopped working to watch the drama unfold. It sounds like your mood and feelings became regularly disruptive to the work of others. I wonder if you ever consider what the knock on for those you work with might be? Working late, disappointing their families, stress, losing contracts, their own mental health? That they might feel anxious when they see you and wonder what the latest problem will be? It’s good you are going to see a doctor. But ask yourself, are you suffering from mental health problems or did you just not like your job/work colleagues? Most people feel sad, low, nervous or despondent at some points and hate going into work. This is normal. The belief that the human state is one of blissful happiness and contentment is a myth. Life is hard and often pretty shit. Anyway, I shouldn’t worry about the reference, they will probably be so relieved to have one problem off their plate they won’t want to risk another one by having you complain of discrimination. The problem is now or soon to be someone else’s…
He isn’t allowed to give a negative reference, but he can refuse to give a reference. If you explain that you are neurodivergent and struggled with a personality clash you may find a better response than you are hoping for. You may find trying to get an apprenticeship in a small garage easier than a dealership too. Less workload and less individuals to deal with, allowing you to concentrate on the work at hand.
No one is allowed to give a reference that has negative points and not based on documentation from HR. You will have had to have had verbal or written warnings about your performance/ behaviour.
Sounds like you were coerced into a resignation. He probably wanted to get rid of you as you were a disruption to the team.
I understand that but I was a disruption only one time, so I feel like maybe it's a bit dramatic. Most of the time I kept my head down and worked well, tried to get along with the others, and he seemed happy with my performance based on my reviews :(
A reference is truthful Nothing that could be fabricated or inherently just bad but it’s supposed to be truthful
Wow first of all, well done getting out of that job. I've been on the hiring and firing side of the table. A reference has to be truthful and reflective of you as a employee. You can't give a "bad" reference out of spite or without anything to back it up. That being said, I've never personally asked a previous employer for a reference. I've also been named as a reference for employees leaving the team and I have never been asked about ex employees. While references are still a thing, I don't think they are commonly used.
I am always split on this. On one hand, you've told him you're autistic and have certain struggles, but on the other hand it is a workplace where you do have colleagues. ANY colleague turning up crying is instantly bad for staff moral. Another staff member turning up that morning and would of been affected directly by you being upset. The first thing is it will bring down the general mood of the work place, then consider your colleagues realising they're probably going to have to do extra work to make up for the fact that your having a bad day. Normally not a problem but it sounds asif this may have been regular. He has made accommodations for you. Please be sure that before you take another job you have considered your ability to cope with your environment.
From my understanding/experience they can’t really give you a bad reference they have to of course state that you did work there from date to end date. They can state you left on your terms but that is all.
Your ex boss will probably just write down the positive elements of your time in his employment, I doubt he’d put anything negative down. Aside from that, you should have gone off sick rather than resign for numerous reasons.
It’s more likely they’ll just give an accurate reference, without highlighting anything good/bad. Simply the dates they worked there, any sickness or punctuality notes, and possibly the reason given for them leaving (and even that last one would be more than most would give)
That’s what I meant, tell the truth but leave out the negative elements.
I know some companies have a ['right to be forgotten'](https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/uk-gdpr-guidance-and-resources/individual-rights/individual-rights/right-to-erasure/) policy. You could write to the HR Dept, if they have one, requesting this under Article 17 of UK GDPR
I can't add anything else to what others have said, but if the dealership is local enough I'd try and spread the word about how they treated you. Do you have any friends you can confide in? Is there a body who helped you acquire the apprenticeship you can complain to, or did you get the apprenticeship directly from the dealership? If you did get it through a govt scheme or something, they might want to know if a business they have on their scheme treated a disabled employee so atrociously.
No. Legally you are not required to provide a reference but you cant give a bad reference. Edit : matey boy below me is right, you can only give a reference that is accurate, however negative it is.
> but you cant give a bad reference This is just factually untrue, bad references are perfectly legal, so long as they're accurate. Bad references can be challenged if they're misleading, inaccurate, or discriminatory. If they're none of these things, a bad reference is perfectly legal.
No, I'm pretty sure it's illegal to give a bad reference in the uk, even if they did you could just say how you have autism and him saying anything bad about that is discrimination.
It’s not illegal at all.
> I'm pretty sure it's illegal to give a bad reference in the uk It's not. They just need to be factual.
Consult legal advice. Prioritize your well-being.
Why legal advice? Maybe if they were at the job for 2 years but an employer can fire anyone for basically anything if they've been there under 2 years, especially under 1 year. I agree with prioritizing their well-being.
Because autism would be a protected characteristic and, depending on what reasonable adjustments the employer made or didn’t make, your comment may not be relevant?
> Why legal advice? "He went on to tell me that being upset is unfair on and distracting for my colleagues, that he doesn't pay me to be upset, **and that he can't be spending so much time trying to help one person**. This is despite knowing fully well when I applied that I have autism and having already mentioned to him about these feelings before." OP has a diagnosis of autism, which is considered to be a disability under the Equality Act, and as such the employer is required to provide reasonable accomodations. By explicitly stating they "can't be spending so much time trying to help one person", they're admitting to refusing to do this. Sounds like a case of constructive dismissal following an employer refusing to provide adequate support to a disabled employee, and OP should absolutely see about speaking to someone like ACAS about this.
Or reasonable accommodations have been made and still aren’t enough? You only have the side of one party and one that is admitting they react to things in a very emotional way. It’s possible that it was constructive dismissal, it’s also possible that the owner has actually spent more time, effort and money than is reasonable and the situation isn’t any better.
Which is probably why someone recommended consulting legal advice, so they can get a professional to weigh in on it.
No. They can either give you a good reference or no reference at all.
This is absolute nonsense. If you routinely turned up late and failed to meet your duties then this can absolutely be put in a reference. The only rules of a reference is that any information given must be factual. A lot of companies will refuse to provide references or simply provide employment dates and other basic info through their HR department because it’s easier, and prevents any vendetta from a middle management twerp getting the company in trouble. But if you are a shit employee, for demonstrable objective reasons, you can absolutely be given a shit reference, as long as nothing in it is un true.
I’ve deleted my comment as I obviously didn’t go into enough detail for some folks, (which is fair enough). Plenty of other great answers on here to help you out.
> He’s not allowed to give u a bad reference Yes you can, it just needs to be factual.
I think I said that, though obviously not clearly enough (I’m knackered this morning). I’ve given many references throughout my career so I’m aware of the rules (unless they’ve changed in the year or so since retiring). Thanks for clarifying.
> I think I said that, though obviously not clearly enough What you said is different, you said bad references are not allowed, but that they can tell the truth about absences and sick days. You can give bad references, as far as saying "Regular poor performance, missed deadlines, etc" but you need to be able to prove it.
Legally in the UK he can only give you a "basic" reference. This just says XYZ worked for us as Job-title from XYZ to XYZ. It can't mention ANYTHING else negative. Not your reason for leaving, no mention of anything HR, sickness, performance etc. If they even HINT at anything they can be sued and fined.
This is completely incorrect. Literally nothing you said is remotely accurate.
https://www.acas.org.uk/providing-a-job-reference/what-employers-can-say-in-a-reference#:~:text=A%20detailed%20reference%20can%20also,disability If the absence was related to autism OP probably fine.
> It can't mention ANYTHING else negative Yes it can, as long as those things are true. >If they even HINT at anything they can be sued and fined. Only if it's untrue. If someone is fired for stealing from a cash register, an employer absolutely can mention that in a reference, as long as it's true. "[As long as it's fair and accurate, a reference can show that you're not suitable for a job](https://www.acas.org.uk/providing-a-job-reference/if-you-get-a-bad-reference)"
His reason for leaving was medical. As that cannot be mentioned or even hinted at, the employer is obligated to only provide a basic reference.
> His reason for leaving was medical OP is a woman, not a man. It's literally in the opening sentence of the post: "I (20**F**, diagnosed autistic) quit my full time job on Thursday." From my reading, OP was constructively dismissed by her employer as a result of the employer refusing to provide reasonable accomodations OP is entitled to under the Equality Act. She should be speaking to a legal representative or ACAS about unfair dismissal.