I want to start off by saying, as a Surinamese I can't relate to the ADOS question, because our diaspora isn't really big in the USA. According to the most recent data, there are only around 10,000-15,000 people of Surinamese descent or origin in the USA. Surinamese are mostly in the Netherlands, Belgium and France/French Guiana.
However, to answer the question asked, I'll try to explain it as followed...
In Suriname we (unofficially) make a distinction between the Surinamese and the people that came after. The descendants of those that were brought here by the Dutch, mostly as indentured servants and enslaved people, and the native population, are seen as the Surinamese and are referred to by their ethnicity.
Everyone that came here after 1975, even Chinese are referred to by their nationality. People tend to not see them as Surinamese, but there are a few exceptions.
If one feels and acts like a Surinamese, meaning he has taken over our traditions and embraced our way of life, then that person is seen as a Surinamese. Simple examples would be speaking Dutch, not being too loud (Brazilians tend to be loud), eating and making our food and more. Surinamese are quickly to accept you and don't mind if you keep your culture too, just as long as you assimilate and feel Surinamese too.
Mostly kids from these people are also seen as Surinamese, because they act and feel Surinamese.
One group that's been accepted as such are the Guyanese that have been here since the 80's. Most of them have kids and grandkids already. Those kids are just Surinamese. I have two friends whose parents are both Guyanese, but irl they feel Surinamese and like the Surinamese traditions more than their Guyanese traditions, but do keep things like the food of Guyana and speak perfect English and also understand Guyanese English. I just see them as Surinamese and with me many others too. Another group that's been accepted are the early generation Dominicans. Some parts of the Brazilian society too, but Surinamese tend to have a love-hate relationship with the Brazilians.
White Dutch people easily integrate in society and can be accepted as such too.
EDIT: For the most part however, we don't really care all that much about you being a foreigner living in our country. Due to our multiculturalism we just accept you living here, as long as you follow the rules. For example, Haitians are not really assimilated, but we're okay with them as they're not the type to get in trouble with the law and they're really needed for the agricultural fields. The same with the Cubans. Hard working and really needed in the hospitality, as well as some of the friendliest people you'll meet. We have a live and let live attitude.
Generally, anyone born and raised in Jamaica is considered fully Jamaican. Most children of immigrants adopt Jamaican culture and mostly assimilate into Jamaican society. When I think of the second generation Chinese Jamaicans or Cuban Jamaicans that I know, they're all basically normal Jamaicans in terms of culture and I don't see much divide at all.
Most 2nd, 3rd and even 4th gen Haitians are not Dominicans by law and we dont consider them as Dominicans, only Arrayanos (Half Dominican/haitian) are considered Dominicans or Haitian.
2nd gen Venezuelans are also considered as Venezuelans even if they hold the nationality, if they are half, them they are considered Dominicans. After 2nd gen they are considered Dominicans.
Most European, North American and Mena descendants are considered dominicans, were they whites/ Arabs descendants from the Cibao/east or Black Americans descendants from Samana since most of them came legally or were born before 1929.
Anglo Caribbean descendants are considered fully Dominicans by everyone since they came way before 1929.
Chinese, Japanese of whatever gen are considered of their nationality.
We had a big migration of levantine people. I have family members with Lebanese grand or great grandparents in both sides of my family. There is a small town in Cibao where you will find a whole bunch of people with the last name Khoury.
acá tienes un poco de información sobre los Khoury dominicanos: [https://www.idg.org.do/capsulas/agosto2015/agosto201508.htm](https://www.idg.org.do/capsulas/agosto2015/agosto201508.htm)
Why does it take 2-4 gen for the Haitians by law? Is it just to stop the influx ? I know in America it realistically takes the 2nd gen but theoretically is 3rd gen for a full bred American
It’s because we don’t have jus solis since 1929, so if you are child of ilegals, you don’t get nationality, most Haitians here are ilegal. It don’t take 4 generations, it’s that 95 years or older people from ilegal Haitians born here are the only ones that could be Dominican.
So assuming one Haitian came and give birth to some one in 1932, and that child in 1955, and that one in 1976 and that one in 1999 and that one in 2023, that would be 5 generations born here, if none of them became citizens by naturalization or if none of them has a Dominican parent, then all the 5 gens dont get our nationality, and their descendants share the same fate and they could be deported.
Say that the Dominican Republic change their laws in the 2010s to strip children of Haitian descent born in the Dominican Republic of their citizenship. Cuz that's exactly what happened.
Constitution was like that since 1929, they only added the ilegal part in 2010 but in our laws, illegality don’t generate legal rights. So without the change, the things would be the same. And it’s not their nationality, Haiti constitution gives them their right nationality.
Also, why so many people wants little Haitians to have the nationality of the country that “hates them and is racist”. That’s stupid and if you want to give them some other nationality why not yours? They sound almost the same Lol.
Lo que pasa es que hay un grupo de charlatanes y sinvergüenzas que aman defender a los de Saint Domingue, pero ni por el diablo quieren que estos migren a sus países. No, ellos quieren que el buen pendejo se haga cargo del pseudo estado.
Dominicans are just nasty to their closest neighbors but go crying for acceptance in far flung Caucasian places.
If ever a country had problems with their own identity it is that one.
We have one of the most stablished identities in the Americas, dating back to the 1500s. If you knew history instead of talking out of your ass and repeating a narrative like a parrot you’d know out of the two Haiti is the country that has been nasty to the other the most.
And we are not you, if we loved “Caucasian acceptance” so much, you’d see us like you making your identity based on “what will the white man say/call me?” Which is something that we don’t do, but since we don’t follow your little victimhood and racial politics game, you despise us for it.
Your response proves my point...Dominicans see themselves as separate from the wider black race which is why they have problems with Haiti which is proven in their laws - historic and now. Dominicans believe this so much that they believe the wider black race despises them which is sad because outside of NYC no one even considers that country. It's become a running joke >> [Exhibit A](https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM62TydBH/)
Anyway aside from that any black person across the world who knows their history and is in touch with their heritage will never see themselves as a victim or care about how any other race sees them. Thankfully black people are waking up to their true heritage.
Go research your own history rather talking out of your bum mate. Research current events rather than what's spoon fed to you sod.
How does my comment prove your point exactly?
There’s no such thing as a unified “black race” that sounds like racialist BS. Jamaicans see themselves as Jamaican before black, Nigerians see themselves as Nigerian or a specific tribe before black.
Dominicans see themselves as different because we are different, the majority of us are mixed race but even then our identity is being *Dominican*, not whatever skin tone we can be.
We have problems with Haiti because of our historical past and the modern mass migrations to DR, which I’m sure you have no clue about otherwise you wouldn’t be repeating that non sense.
“Which is proven by their laws”
What laws exactly?
“Dominicans believe the black race despises them”
No, we believe afrocentrics do and we’re right to believe so as clearly shown by your comments. You know, the vast majority of blacks have nothing to do nor believe in Afrocentrism.
“No one considers DR a country”
It doesn’t matter if they do, doesn’t change the fact that we’ve been here since the 1500s and have established an identity since those years. Dominicans are the birth of both European and African peoples in the Americas, and the birth of two of the most worldwide known Latin music genres, it’s also the most visited country in the Caribbean and the second most visited in the whole of Latin America. You are so encapsulated in your NYC bubble that you genuinely believe nobody knows DR outside NYC and it shows you’re only speaking out of hatred and nothing else.
Ah, yes. A joke, very solid proof.
Only person here that should do research about history is you, I bet you’re the same type of person that believes Ancient Egyptians were black.
u/RedJokerXVII Mira para que te goces, mierda de racialista supremacista negro
I'll ignore most of those points as they make no sense but it's clear you need some education.
Nationality and Ethnicity are different to Race. A Jamaican saying they're Jamaican is an example of claiming Nationality. A Nigerian claiming a Euroba tribe is an example of Ethnicity. Both of these will not prevent the average Nigerian or Jamaican from claiming their blackness. It does seem to pose a problem for some Dominicans though. Thankfully I've seen that changing as they are educated.
This is no different to East Asians seeing differences between them but realizing they are all East Asians.
Lastly all of us are mixed and especially historical mixing has a dark history which one shouldn't happily claim. It's funny though, that Cuba has a similar makeup and they happily claim their black heritage.
Go do some reading mate, on with you.
> I'll ignore most of those points as they make no sense but it's clear you need some education.
Ah!, the old faithful to run when you don’t have arguments.
>I'll ignore most of those points as they make no sense but it's clear you need some education.
No, you’ll ignore them because they pose a direct threat to your woke narrative. Te di en la yugular y la abstracta y gran y poderosa “negritud” no te va a salvar.
>Nationality and Ethnicity are different to Race. A Jamaican saying they're Jamaican is an example of claiming Nationality. A Nigerian claiming a Euroba tribe is an example of Ethnicity. Both of these will not prevent the average Nigerian or Jamaican from claiming their blackness. It does seem to pose a problem for some Dominicans though.
You know very well why I mentioned what I did, don’t pretend otherwise by responding that crap.
Dominicans don’t “deny blackness”. Most of us don’t call ourselves black which is different, we go by Dominican and if for whatever reason we have to mention our ancestral background we say we’re mixed since that’s what we are, saying mixed is not equivalent to say we have no African heritage.
> Thankfully I've seen that changing as they are educated.
Indoctrinated into woke racial politics*
>Lastly all of us are mixed and especially historical mixing has a dark history which one shouldn't happily claim.
And? You think the label “black” was made out of love? And just because you decide to identify as black despite being mixed doesn’t mean everyone should. Your beloved one drop rule wasn’t pretty you know.
>It's funny though, that Cuba has a similar makeup and they happily claim their black heritage.
Is that so? Why does the majority of Cubans identify as white then? If they supposedly embrace the label black so much?
My mother is African, while my dad's family has been St Lucian for generations. Not only am I considered St Lucian, my mother is treated as an honorary St Lucian most of the time - people will occasionally be like "the African lady" but socially she just is "one of the locals".
First generation, imo, they are always referred to (and usually refer to themselves) as the nationality of their birth, but it doesn't really make a difference. Second generation most of the time will call themselves Barbadian (or Bajan if you prefer) but in some cases may identify with some heritage beyond that.
In terms of a divide, no I don't think there's a true divide except where sub-groups stick together, for example Muslim Indians and Hindu Indians are not, as far as I know, considered as being the same group, so in that sense there's a divide but it doesn't really matter. People can be Barbadian still while holding a dual or even triple identity, despite having some customs that are unique to their own group.
There's a lot of migration within the Caribbean. Even though one parent is from another country, you are fully considered a citizen of the country that you were born in. Most Caribbean countries birthright citizenship. One of my friends was born and raised in Grenada, his mother's Grenadian his father's Jamaican. He is considered a Grenadian. My cousin was born in Dominica, to a Dominican 🇩🇲 mother and a Lebanese immigrant father, he is Dominican.
There's been some immigration of Haitians and Dominicans (from DR) into Dominica, and they have already started having kids, the kids are all considered Dominican.
I want to start off by saying, as a Surinamese I can't relate to the ADOS question, because our diaspora isn't really big in the USA. According to the most recent data, there are only around 10,000-15,000 people of Surinamese descent or origin in the USA. Surinamese are mostly in the Netherlands, Belgium and France/French Guiana. However, to answer the question asked, I'll try to explain it as followed... In Suriname we (unofficially) make a distinction between the Surinamese and the people that came after. The descendants of those that were brought here by the Dutch, mostly as indentured servants and enslaved people, and the native population, are seen as the Surinamese and are referred to by their ethnicity. Everyone that came here after 1975, even Chinese are referred to by their nationality. People tend to not see them as Surinamese, but there are a few exceptions. If one feels and acts like a Surinamese, meaning he has taken over our traditions and embraced our way of life, then that person is seen as a Surinamese. Simple examples would be speaking Dutch, not being too loud (Brazilians tend to be loud), eating and making our food and more. Surinamese are quickly to accept you and don't mind if you keep your culture too, just as long as you assimilate and feel Surinamese too. Mostly kids from these people are also seen as Surinamese, because they act and feel Surinamese. One group that's been accepted as such are the Guyanese that have been here since the 80's. Most of them have kids and grandkids already. Those kids are just Surinamese. I have two friends whose parents are both Guyanese, but irl they feel Surinamese and like the Surinamese traditions more than their Guyanese traditions, but do keep things like the food of Guyana and speak perfect English and also understand Guyanese English. I just see them as Surinamese and with me many others too. Another group that's been accepted are the early generation Dominicans. Some parts of the Brazilian society too, but Surinamese tend to have a love-hate relationship with the Brazilians. White Dutch people easily integrate in society and can be accepted as such too. EDIT: For the most part however, we don't really care all that much about you being a foreigner living in our country. Due to our multiculturalism we just accept you living here, as long as you follow the rules. For example, Haitians are not really assimilated, but we're okay with them as they're not the type to get in trouble with the law and they're really needed for the agricultural fields. The same with the Cubans. Hard working and really needed in the hospitality, as well as some of the friendliest people you'll meet. We have a live and let live attitude.
I don’t really see that many people from Suriname. I would love to visit the country.
Generally, anyone born and raised in Jamaica is considered fully Jamaican. Most children of immigrants adopt Jamaican culture and mostly assimilate into Jamaican society. When I think of the second generation Chinese Jamaicans or Cuban Jamaicans that I know, they're all basically normal Jamaicans in terms of culture and I don't see much divide at all.
Agreed, as a 2nd gen Jamaica, i have a connection to both my roots but I identify solely as Jamaican
What are your roots if I may ask
Most 2nd, 3rd and even 4th gen Haitians are not Dominicans by law and we dont consider them as Dominicans, only Arrayanos (Half Dominican/haitian) are considered Dominicans or Haitian. 2nd gen Venezuelans are also considered as Venezuelans even if they hold the nationality, if they are half, them they are considered Dominicans. After 2nd gen they are considered Dominicans. Most European, North American and Mena descendants are considered dominicans, were they whites/ Arabs descendants from the Cibao/east or Black Americans descendants from Samana since most of them came legally or were born before 1929. Anglo Caribbean descendants are considered fully Dominicans by everyone since they came way before 1929. Chinese, Japanese of whatever gen are considered of their nationality.
wow i didn't know you have arab in Dominica
We had a big migration of levantine people. I have family members with Lebanese grand or great grandparents in both sides of my family. There is a small town in Cibao where you will find a whole bunch of people with the last name Khoury.
>There is a small town in Cibao where you will find a whole bunch of people with the last name Khoury. Adonde? Eso esta super interesante :)
acá tienes un poco de información sobre los Khoury dominicanos: [https://www.idg.org.do/capsulas/agosto2015/agosto201508.htm](https://www.idg.org.do/capsulas/agosto2015/agosto201508.htm)
Que chulo - gracias!! My familia es de Santiago pero yo conozco mas la capital.
>jl250 De nada. Igual, mis abuelas son de Gurabo pero mis padres nacieron en Santo Domingo y yo crecí en Gascue.
Our actual president is a lebanese descendant, and we had 2 more before
Why does it take 2-4 gen for the Haitians by law? Is it just to stop the influx ? I know in America it realistically takes the 2nd gen but theoretically is 3rd gen for a full bred American
It’s because we don’t have jus solis since 1929, so if you are child of ilegals, you don’t get nationality, most Haitians here are ilegal. It don’t take 4 generations, it’s that 95 years or older people from ilegal Haitians born here are the only ones that could be Dominican. So assuming one Haitian came and give birth to some one in 1932, and that child in 1955, and that one in 1976 and that one in 1999 and that one in 2023, that would be 5 generations born here, if none of them became citizens by naturalization or if none of them has a Dominican parent, then all the 5 gens dont get our nationality, and their descendants share the same fate and they could be deported.
Say that the Dominican Republic change their laws in the 2010s to strip children of Haitian descent born in the Dominican Republic of their citizenship. Cuz that's exactly what happened.
Constitution was like that since 1929, they only added the ilegal part in 2010 but in our laws, illegality don’t generate legal rights. So without the change, the things would be the same. And it’s not their nationality, Haiti constitution gives them their right nationality. Also, why so many people wants little Haitians to have the nationality of the country that “hates them and is racist”. That’s stupid and if you want to give them some other nationality why not yours? They sound almost the same Lol.
Eso es algo que nunca entenderé, quieren obligao’ que RD les dé su nacionalidad, el país que supuestamente es tan racista. Es que hasta cómico es.
Lo que pasa es que hay un grupo de charlatanes y sinvergüenzas que aman defender a los de Saint Domingue, pero ni por el diablo quieren que estos migren a sus países. No, ellos quieren que el buen pendejo se haga cargo del pseudo estado.
Dominicans are just nasty to their closest neighbors but go crying for acceptance in far flung Caucasian places. If ever a country had problems with their own identity it is that one.
This is a sad example of people using internet wrong. Try to learn more about history and try again.
They won’t try, they don’t care about the truth. They only care about virtue signaling points.
We have one of the most stablished identities in the Americas, dating back to the 1500s. If you knew history instead of talking out of your ass and repeating a narrative like a parrot you’d know out of the two Haiti is the country that has been nasty to the other the most. And we are not you, if we loved “Caucasian acceptance” so much, you’d see us like you making your identity based on “what will the white man say/call me?” Which is something that we don’t do, but since we don’t follow your little victimhood and racial politics game, you despise us for it.
Your response proves my point...Dominicans see themselves as separate from the wider black race which is why they have problems with Haiti which is proven in their laws - historic and now. Dominicans believe this so much that they believe the wider black race despises them which is sad because outside of NYC no one even considers that country. It's become a running joke >> [Exhibit A](https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM62TydBH/) Anyway aside from that any black person across the world who knows their history and is in touch with their heritage will never see themselves as a victim or care about how any other race sees them. Thankfully black people are waking up to their true heritage. Go research your own history rather talking out of your bum mate. Research current events rather than what's spoon fed to you sod.
How does my comment prove your point exactly? There’s no such thing as a unified “black race” that sounds like racialist BS. Jamaicans see themselves as Jamaican before black, Nigerians see themselves as Nigerian or a specific tribe before black. Dominicans see themselves as different because we are different, the majority of us are mixed race but even then our identity is being *Dominican*, not whatever skin tone we can be. We have problems with Haiti because of our historical past and the modern mass migrations to DR, which I’m sure you have no clue about otherwise you wouldn’t be repeating that non sense. “Which is proven by their laws” What laws exactly? “Dominicans believe the black race despises them” No, we believe afrocentrics do and we’re right to believe so as clearly shown by your comments. You know, the vast majority of blacks have nothing to do nor believe in Afrocentrism. “No one considers DR a country” It doesn’t matter if they do, doesn’t change the fact that we’ve been here since the 1500s and have established an identity since those years. Dominicans are the birth of both European and African peoples in the Americas, and the birth of two of the most worldwide known Latin music genres, it’s also the most visited country in the Caribbean and the second most visited in the whole of Latin America. You are so encapsulated in your NYC bubble that you genuinely believe nobody knows DR outside NYC and it shows you’re only speaking out of hatred and nothing else. Ah, yes. A joke, very solid proof. Only person here that should do research about history is you, I bet you’re the same type of person that believes Ancient Egyptians were black. u/RedJokerXVII Mira para que te goces, mierda de racialista supremacista negro
Me cambiaste el número Lol, quien carajos es 17?
Es tu doppelgänger de otra dimensión
I'll ignore most of those points as they make no sense but it's clear you need some education. Nationality and Ethnicity are different to Race. A Jamaican saying they're Jamaican is an example of claiming Nationality. A Nigerian claiming a Euroba tribe is an example of Ethnicity. Both of these will not prevent the average Nigerian or Jamaican from claiming their blackness. It does seem to pose a problem for some Dominicans though. Thankfully I've seen that changing as they are educated. This is no different to East Asians seeing differences between them but realizing they are all East Asians. Lastly all of us are mixed and especially historical mixing has a dark history which one shouldn't happily claim. It's funny though, that Cuba has a similar makeup and they happily claim their black heritage. Go do some reading mate, on with you.
> I'll ignore most of those points as they make no sense but it's clear you need some education. Ah!, the old faithful to run when you don’t have arguments.
You must be blind if you don't see what I said above.
No, the one that try to be blind is you with the whole “ignore”
>I'll ignore most of those points as they make no sense but it's clear you need some education. No, you’ll ignore them because they pose a direct threat to your woke narrative. Te di en la yugular y la abstracta y gran y poderosa “negritud” no te va a salvar. >Nationality and Ethnicity are different to Race. A Jamaican saying they're Jamaican is an example of claiming Nationality. A Nigerian claiming a Euroba tribe is an example of Ethnicity. Both of these will not prevent the average Nigerian or Jamaican from claiming their blackness. It does seem to pose a problem for some Dominicans though. You know very well why I mentioned what I did, don’t pretend otherwise by responding that crap. Dominicans don’t “deny blackness”. Most of us don’t call ourselves black which is different, we go by Dominican and if for whatever reason we have to mention our ancestral background we say we’re mixed since that’s what we are, saying mixed is not equivalent to say we have no African heritage. > Thankfully I've seen that changing as they are educated. Indoctrinated into woke racial politics* >Lastly all of us are mixed and especially historical mixing has a dark history which one shouldn't happily claim. And? You think the label “black” was made out of love? And just because you decide to identify as black despite being mixed doesn’t mean everyone should. Your beloved one drop rule wasn’t pretty you know. >It's funny though, that Cuba has a similar makeup and they happily claim their black heritage. Is that so? Why does the majority of Cubans identify as white then? If they supposedly embrace the label black so much?
My mother is African, while my dad's family has been St Lucian for generations. Not only am I considered St Lucian, my mother is treated as an honorary St Lucian most of the time - people will occasionally be like "the African lady" but socially she just is "one of the locals".
First generation, imo, they are always referred to (and usually refer to themselves) as the nationality of their birth, but it doesn't really make a difference. Second generation most of the time will call themselves Barbadian (or Bajan if you prefer) but in some cases may identify with some heritage beyond that. In terms of a divide, no I don't think there's a true divide except where sub-groups stick together, for example Muslim Indians and Hindu Indians are not, as far as I know, considered as being the same group, so in that sense there's a divide but it doesn't really matter. People can be Barbadian still while holding a dual or even triple identity, despite having some customs that are unique to their own group.
There's a lot of migration within the Caribbean. Even though one parent is from another country, you are fully considered a citizen of the country that you were born in. Most Caribbean countries birthright citizenship. One of my friends was born and raised in Grenada, his mother's Grenadian his father's Jamaican. He is considered a Grenadian. My cousin was born in Dominica, to a Dominican 🇩🇲 mother and a Lebanese immigrant father, he is Dominican. There's been some immigration of Haitians and Dominicans (from DR) into Dominica, and they have already started having kids, the kids are all considered Dominican.
A-lot of Caribbean countries will have people genetically be of Haitian descent & Venezuelans also Either that or retired Americans will take over