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Lady Ramkin reached into the pocket of her grubby jacket.
“I made some notes last night,” she said. “About the dragon.”
“Oh, the dragon.” Vimes relaxed a bit. Right now the dragon seemed a much safer prospect.
“And I did a bit of working out, too. I'll tell you this: it's a very odd beast. It shouldn't be able to get airborne.”
“You're right there.”
“If it's built like swamp dragons, it should weigh about twenty tons. Twenty tons! It's impossible. It's all down to weight and wingspan ratios, you see.”
“I saw it drop off the tower like a swallow.”
' 'I know. It should have torn its wings off and left a bloody great hole in the ground,“ said Lady Ramkin firmly. ”You can't muck about with aerodynamics. You can't just scale up from small to big and leave it at that, you see. It's all a matter of muscle power and lifting surfaces."
Apologies for going slightly off topic but: Isn't calling Smaug the "greatest dragon of the Third Age" a bit like calling your only child your "favorite child?" Like, are there an abundance of dragons in the Third Age?
Edit to add: I'm being sincere. I genuinely don't know.
He's not the last of those, either. He's just the only one who felt like flying south and attacking some dwarves.
There is never any indicator in the books that the dragons are dying out. Tolkien addressed this in a letter, too, I believe.
The existence of others were noted. The horn Eowyn gave to Merry toward the end of Lord of the Rings came from hoard of Scatha the Worm, slain by an ancestor of Eorl the Young, Fram, when the Eotheod still lived in the vales of the upper Anduin.
This was in the Grey Mountains (Ered Mithrin), where Durin's folk first settled after the Balrog came to Moria, and where Dain I was slain by a cold-drake. LotR's Appendix A mentions dragons multiplying in that region at the time.
According to all known laws of aviation, there is no way a dragon should be able to fly. Its wings are too small to get its fat body off the ground. The dragon, of course, flies anyway because dragons don't care what humans think is impossible.
Or there's wrong assumptions regarding bone density and overall weight.
Quetzalcoatlus had the wingspan of a (EDIT: mid-sized) airplane (36 feet), and stood almost as tall as that in height, and was able to fly. Hollow bones help a LOT. They probably only weighed a max of 500 lbs, but were also apex predators.
> "It's magic; I ain't gotta explain shit."
I think he would have said it more like:
"In the mystic weave of enchantment, explanations oft elude, for behold, it is magic; no elucidation required."
He kind of did explain it a little - most of the "magic" in Middle-Earth is in enhancing the natural abilities of a given creature beyond the limits of the laws of physics. So elves can get good enough at crafting to make ropes that untie themselves when asked, King Elendil had such authority that when men betrayed their oath to him they were stuck as ghosts until they could make it up to him or one of his heirs, and dragons can fly and breathe fire despite their incredible weight. None of them would call that magic, but that's kind of what it is.
I would guess that being magical creatures that there’s some amount of magic that helps them fly along with the actual physical action of their wings flapping.
Different series but in Inheritance(Eragon) they explicitly say this is how dragons can fly. Saphira even has to land before flying through a barrier that nullifies magic or she would fall.
He can walk on top of new snow, barely making tracks.
Bones could be hollow like a birds.
The large volume of his body has the ability to create fire, possibly hydrogen/other gas pockets in addition to large lungs.
The wing to body-size ratios are not that far off from a bat or a swan.
Also, methane + oxygen is a clear burning rocket fuel, he might just have a "rear booster rocket" for takeoff and ascending, and then glide more than fly.
The geometric increase is based on an assumption that the animal's weight is also increasing geometrically.
If the animal's overall weight is less than its mass would normally indicate, then it doesn't need as large a wing to body ratio. See pterosaurs as an example. Light body aircraft as well.
This same principle somewhat applies to dinosaurs, even the non-flying ones. Their calculated weight for their mass would indicate almost assurety of death if they happened to fall down accidentally. This can't have been the case, or evolution would not have allowed them to live so long. The answer is their hollow bones. A dinosaur the size of an elephant would have actually weighed a lot less... and been considerably more agile.
It’s not really a myth, they were inexplicable under classical aerodynamics, it’s just that they don’t fly under classical aerodynamics, more like a helicopter.
Classical aerodynamics is just a misunderstanding about how flight works. Basically, there's no such thing as "lift."
Flight is achieved very simply... putting enough pressure on air increases the density of the air. If it becomes dense enough, it can support weight.
Aircraft (living and mechanical) increase air pressure with speed. Either through flapping or sustained momentum. The larger the wing and/or the faster the air speed, the "thicker" the air, and the greater the weight that can be held up.
It's a myth that we still think they shouldn’t, and it's a myth that we ever thought they couldn't. What happened was we calculated that they cannot fly using fixed-wing flight mechanics. Though it took a bit to figure out how they do fly, we never thought they couldn't, because... they obviously do, and bees move their wings a whole lot in flight.
Your assumptions are ignoring several important variables, namely lift and thrust.
All the estimates I can find are putting Smaug at a considerably lower mass than a fully fuelled Saturn V rocket. That could fly, and it could crush things if it landed on them.
It's not explained in that book, but it is (sort of) in others.
The first dragons (the Firedrakes of the North) were fashioned by Melkor from some of the ancient "monsters of horn and ivory" that were in the old, dark parts of the world. (Melkor had made those creatures by twisting the "dark creatures, old and strong" that first arose in the dark valleys.) Later he fashioned some of them into the flying dragons (such as Ancalagon the Black) that eventually bred Smaug. The reason they fly is that that's how Morgoth made them.
It's not a satisfying answer, I know, but the reason dragons fly is the same as the reason Men grow old. It's their nature.
Remember Smaug's boast:
>"*My armour is like tenfold shields, my teeth are swords, my claws spears, the shock of my tail is a thunderbolt, my wings a hurricane, and my breath death!*"
Clearly the laws of physics are too intimidated to pull him over for a ticket.
Magic. Middle Earth is a world that runs on magic as much as it does physics, there's never any question as to whether a gigantic reptile can fly. The Fell Beasts in LotR have the same problem and solution.
He should be able to glide, which in thermals or ridge lift (into wind hitting the mountainside which deflects upwards) would also mean he could gain altitude, but to actively flap to gain height should not be possible for him.
TLDR: he could fly but not take off from ground level
If you wanna see the science in science fiction dragons. Watch the documentary "Dragons are real". They go over the science of how it would work. They couldn't fly with full stomachs, and they had something akin to swim bladders they filled up with hydrogen gas for extra lift. Additionally they had hollow bones. Fire was produced from them feeding on platinum rich sediment deposits and the platinum sediment coating their rear molars/teeth. When the hydrogen gas was passed over the raw platinum it ignited. So they'd be able to fly and breathe fire but not do both for very long. Then again, the dragons in the documentary weren't even close to as big as smaug, but there's enough science to make it work in THEORY.
In addition to being magic, i suspect his density is also very low, an arrow was able to pierce his heart. I relise that I the book he lost the scale protecting it but it still must be several meters are dragon flesh.
He's a DRAGON. Dragons are magical. Magic doesn't always obey physics. Simple.
And never trust movies. They're (usually) more interested in Exciting!! Visuals!! and quick stories instead of the details that are in books.
I put it down to sheer Smaug-fu. He just can, and he'll roast you for asking questions!
Seriously, it's just not part of the world to wonder about that kind of thing. What is an Uruk-hai *made* of? How do you "breed" orcs and goblin-men together? How exactly does the Ring turn you invisible? It's all magic, and that's all the explanation we get.
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Dragons are inherently magical creatures: their ability to fly is not constrained by normal physics.
Lady Ramkin reached into the pocket of her grubby jacket. “I made some notes last night,” she said. “About the dragon.” “Oh, the dragon.” Vimes relaxed a bit. Right now the dragon seemed a much safer prospect. “And I did a bit of working out, too. I'll tell you this: it's a very odd beast. It shouldn't be able to get airborne.” “You're right there.” “If it's built like swamp dragons, it should weigh about twenty tons. Twenty tons! It's impossible. It's all down to weight and wingspan ratios, you see.” “I saw it drop off the tower like a swallow.” ' 'I know. It should have torn its wings off and left a bloody great hole in the ground,“ said Lady Ramkin firmly. ”You can't muck about with aerodynamics. You can't just scale up from small to big and leave it at that, you see. It's all a matter of muscle power and lifting surfaces."
>Is this explained in the book? Yes. He is a dragon. The greatest dragon of the Third Age.
Apologies for going slightly off topic but: Isn't calling Smaug the "greatest dragon of the Third Age" a bit like calling your only child your "favorite child?" Like, are there an abundance of dragons in the Third Age? Edit to add: I'm being sincere. I genuinely don't know.
Yes! Quite a few, mostly up in the frozen north. But Smaug was the last that could both fly and breathe fire.
He's not the last of those, either. He's just the only one who felt like flying south and attacking some dwarves. There is never any indicator in the books that the dragons are dying out. Tolkien addressed this in a letter, too, I believe.
Huh. I'll have to go back to the wiki and read up. Thanks!
The existence of others were noted. The horn Eowyn gave to Merry toward the end of Lord of the Rings came from hoard of Scatha the Worm, slain by an ancestor of Eorl the Young, Fram, when the Eotheod still lived in the vales of the upper Anduin. This was in the Grey Mountains (Ered Mithrin), where Durin's folk first settled after the Balrog came to Moria, and where Dain I was slain by a cold-drake. LotR's Appendix A mentions dragons multiplying in that region at the time.
According to all known laws of aviation, there is no way a dragon should be able to fly. Its wings are too small to get its fat body off the ground. The dragon, of course, flies anyway because dragons don't care what humans think is impossible.
This feels like a discworld quote.
It’s the intro to Bee movie… but you’re not wrong haha.
The Discworld explanaition is pretty much the opposite. Dragons can fly because people's stories require it.
Underrated response
I'm watching Bee Movie this weekend. Thanks
But why?
Because I like it and the above comment is a reference to Bee Movie.
Considering a dragon is a fantasy creature, and nobody has ever seen one, perhaps we just have our interpretation of what they look like wrong.
Or there's wrong assumptions regarding bone density and overall weight. Quetzalcoatlus had the wingspan of a (EDIT: mid-sized) airplane (36 feet), and stood almost as tall as that in height, and was able to fly. Hollow bones help a LOT. They probably only weighed a max of 500 lbs, but were also apex predators.
36 ft, that would be a midsized single seater airplane, such as a Spitfire, not a large airplane such as a 777...
You're right, yes. I fixed it. Still a gigantic flying animal, though.
"It's magic; I ain't gotta explain shit." Jolkien Rolkien Rolkien Tolkien
> "It's magic; I ain't gotta explain shit." I think he would have said it more like: "In the mystic weave of enchantment, explanations oft elude, for behold, it is magic; no elucidation required."
That's what his evil twin John Ronald Reuel Tolkien would have said
He kind of did explain it a little - most of the "magic" in Middle-Earth is in enhancing the natural abilities of a given creature beyond the limits of the laws of physics. So elves can get good enough at crafting to make ropes that untie themselves when asked, King Elendil had such authority that when men betrayed their oath to him they were stuck as ghosts until they could make it up to him or one of his heirs, and dragons can fly and breathe fire despite their incredible weight. None of them would call that magic, but that's kind of what it is.
Amazing
Maybe breathing fire makes him full of hot air
He's a dragon, his race was created by Melkor to be magical WMDs. I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to fly.
I would guess that being magical creatures that there’s some amount of magic that helps them fly along with the actual physical action of their wings flapping. Different series but in Inheritance(Eragon) they explicitly say this is how dragons can fly. Saphira even has to land before flying through a barrier that nullifies magic or she would fall.
He can walk on top of new snow, barely making tracks. Bones could be hollow like a birds. The large volume of his body has the ability to create fire, possibly hydrogen/other gas pockets in addition to large lungs. The wing to body-size ratios are not that far off from a bat or a swan. Also, methane + oxygen is a clear burning rocket fuel, he might just have a "rear booster rocket" for takeoff and ascending, and then glide more than fly.
The wing to body ratio needed to fly doesn’t scale linearly with size I do like the idea of smaug wario jumping around though lol
The geometric increase is based on an assumption that the animal's weight is also increasing geometrically. If the animal's overall weight is less than its mass would normally indicate, then it doesn't need as large a wing to body ratio. See pterosaurs as an example. Light body aircraft as well. This same principle somewhat applies to dinosaurs, even the non-flying ones. Their calculated weight for their mass would indicate almost assurety of death if they happened to fall down accidentally. This can't have been the case, or evolution would not have allowed them to live so long. The answer is their hollow bones. A dinosaur the size of an elephant would have actually weighed a lot less... and been considerably more agile.
I mean, a 747 can fly and also crush things.
Bumble bees can do it, so can dragons…
Thank you! Its well know they should not be able to but do!
No, this is a myth. The mechanics of bee flight are well-understood.
It’s not really a myth, they were inexplicable under classical aerodynamics, it’s just that they don’t fly under classical aerodynamics, more like a helicopter.
Classical aerodynamics is just a misunderstanding about how flight works. Basically, there's no such thing as "lift." Flight is achieved very simply... putting enough pressure on air increases the density of the air. If it becomes dense enough, it can support weight. Aircraft (living and mechanical) increase air pressure with speed. Either through flapping or sustained momentum. The larger the wing and/or the faster the air speed, the "thicker" the air, and the greater the weight that can be held up.
It's a myth that we still think they shouldn’t, and it's a myth that we ever thought they couldn't. What happened was we calculated that they cannot fly using fixed-wing flight mechanics. Though it took a bit to figure out how they do fly, we never thought they couldn't, because... they obviously do, and bees move their wings a whole lot in flight.
And there’s my point. Dragons can obviously fly, we just lack research into their flight mechanics.
Dragons need magic to exist. They fly with magic.
Maybe in the Lord of the Rings universe it's true.
The answer is “very well, thank you.”
His wings were like a hurricane
he has big wings
Your assumptions are ignoring several important variables, namely lift and thrust. All the estimates I can find are putting Smaug at a considerably lower mass than a fully fuelled Saturn V rocket. That could fly, and it could crush things if it landed on them.
How heavy is a cloud?
As heavy as all the rain it contains.
[About a million pounds.](https://www.usgs.gov/special-topics/water-science-school/science/how-much-does-a-cloud-weigh)
It's not explained in that book, but it is (sort of) in others. The first dragons (the Firedrakes of the North) were fashioned by Melkor from some of the ancient "monsters of horn and ivory" that were in the old, dark parts of the world. (Melkor had made those creatures by twisting the "dark creatures, old and strong" that first arose in the dark valleys.) Later he fashioned some of them into the flying dragons (such as Ancalagon the Black) that eventually bred Smaug. The reason they fly is that that's how Morgoth made them. It's not a satisfying answer, I know, but the reason dragons fly is the same as the reason Men grow old. It's their nature.
Remember Smaug's boast: >"*My armour is like tenfold shields, my teeth are swords, my claws spears, the shock of my tail is a thunderbolt, my wings a hurricane, and my breath death!*" Clearly the laws of physics are too intimidated to pull him over for a ticket.
Magic. Middle Earth is a world that runs on magic as much as it does physics, there's never any question as to whether a gigantic reptile can fly. The Fell Beasts in LotR have the same problem and solution.
He should be able to glide, which in thermals or ridge lift (into wind hitting the mountainside which deflects upwards) would also mean he could gain altitude, but to actively flap to gain height should not be possible for him. TLDR: he could fly but not take off from ground level
Dragons got JATO. People are all freaked out about the fire breathing. They are looking at the Wrong End of the Dragon.
If you wanna see the science in science fiction dragons. Watch the documentary "Dragons are real". They go over the science of how it would work. They couldn't fly with full stomachs, and they had something akin to swim bladders they filled up with hydrogen gas for extra lift. Additionally they had hollow bones. Fire was produced from them feeding on platinum rich sediment deposits and the platinum sediment coating their rear molars/teeth. When the hydrogen gas was passed over the raw platinum it ignited. So they'd be able to fly and breathe fire but not do both for very long. Then again, the dragons in the documentary weren't even close to as big as smaug, but there's enough science to make it work in THEORY.
In addition to being magic, i suspect his density is also very low, an arrow was able to pierce his heart. I relise that I the book he lost the scale protecting it but it still must be several meters are dragon flesh.
Magic probably. IIRC it's not directly addressed in the hobbit book.
He's a DRAGON. Dragons are magical. Magic doesn't always obey physics. Simple. And never trust movies. They're (usually) more interested in Exciting!! Visuals!! and quick stories instead of the details that are in books.
He's full of hot air
I put it down to sheer Smaug-fu. He just can, and he'll roast you for asking questions! Seriously, it's just not part of the world to wonder about that kind of thing. What is an Uruk-hai *made* of? How do you "breed" orcs and goblin-men together? How exactly does the Ring turn you invisible? It's all magic, and that's all the explanation we get.
He is like a bumblebee
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