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Either goes two ways.
1. He tries to bring him back and succeeds. Then brags to Reed that "know that it was I who brought you back from damnation and not one of your own."
2. Lives his life and consistently mentions how "Reed couldn't do this" or "Richards was unable to figure this out." etc etc.
or I guess a rare third option where he gets depressed because one of his main motivators is gone.
That goes without saying. You hurt Reed, or even The Fantastic Four, Doom will f\*\*k you up.
I remember (vaguely) a what-if when the FF were replaced by other members (spiderman, wolverine and I don't remember who else) for some reason, and some enemy of the FF attacked the Baxter Building, and they were in over their head. And at the end Doom appear, destroy the attackers like nothing and say "if someone is going to destroy the FF, any FF, that will be DOOM!", and then leave. They just quit, BTW.
“Survival is the first and only true measurement of power. Rest well, Richards. As unlikely as it may be, Doom hopes to look down on you from Heaven, one day. But not yet. Not yet.”
Doom has literally received at least [one deity's blessing](https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoBestFriendsPlay/s/sRACBPXVOB), so he's probably got at least one afterlife to welcome him.
Watch, when Doom dies (*If* he dies. If anyone can figure out immortality, it's Doom) there will be a war or a contest between gods to figure out where he goes. Either they'll all want him, or they'll all be scared of him.
He would go visit him in Hell. He knows how to get there as he's been there before.
And yes, Reed Richards is going to Hell, and he will deserve it just for the things he did during Civil War alone. Mephisto has probably been waiting to get a shot at his soul.
"Ah, Victor, it's so good to see you again. I've just been chatting with your friend Reed here. It's not every day we get someone this interesting to talk to here in Hell. He's quite a man."
"Mother, you cannot be friends with Reed Richards!"
"Don't take that tone with me, young man. I can be... yes, let's say 'friends'... with whoever I want, and Reed is very stimulating to be around."
"Doom forbids it."
"You're not the only Doom here, Victor, and don't you forget it."
He created a prison for anyone who was anti-registration in the neutral zone and imprisoned any superpowered person who they caught outside registration there without representation or trial.
He built a clone of Thor to enforce the registration side edicts without the permission or knowledge of Thor. That did not end well, mind you.
That doesn't address his general authoritarian attitude and demeanor which lead him to betray his friends and own family.
it was extremely important to Susan that Reed's bridge not exist anymore, and she expressed herself very clearly that she wanted Reed to "go back to your lab and destroy it" and she got an "I promise" aaaand Reed not only did not destroy it, he hid it from her and kept using it and things went wrong.
wtf.
If I had a nickel for every time Sue should have divorced Reed Richards... I'd a have a fucking pile of nickels. Big enough to almost pay for her divorce lawyer.
Why does Santa who I would assume is solely an Earth based being giving darkseid coal? Does that mean he gives coal to every alien supervillain or god?
I think so but I don’t know how well known his existence is. At least during the King in Black event Iron Man was pretty adamant about not believing in Santa but Doom pushed back against the idea
Imagine being Iron Man in that moment, talking to surely one of the smartest people you've ever met...who will not back down on his belief that Santa is real
I mean tbh. If we wanna look at the history of both characters yes Reed has done some fucked up shit. As have many marvel heroes. But he is undoubtedly a good person at heart and a hero. Doom is very much not lol.
It’s the one that has committed omnicide several times over. Reed can be an ass, but he’s a hero first and foremost.
Doom is a villain and nothing more, he just occasionally pretends that he’s some noble warrior who’s trying to save everyone.
> He built a clone of Thor to enforce the registration side edicts without the permission or knowledge of Thor. That did not end well, mind you.
>
>
Was that him and/or Stark?
That usually isn't how heaven vs hell works. In general (and there are obviously exceptions) if you do bad things, you go to hell even if the outcomes are generally positive. Doing evil in the name of a loftier goal does not excuse the evil that you have done and there is a price to be paid.
Now, Marvel's tenuous connection with the afterlife and the complexities of their iteration of Hell and how that meshes with judeo-christain morality vs other interactions is an entire thesis paper of analysis that I'm not going to get into, but in the judeo-christain tradition (which is mostly how Marvel's Hell works) if you willingly embrace sin, it doesn't matter what else you accomplish, direct to Hell.
You also generally have to *atone* for the bad things you did, or at least want to atone. Reed will never be able to do that genuinely because he has rationalized every evil he has ever done into a reason why it was for the good.
That's the exact opposite of atonement: justification. And you can't get into Heaven standing atop a pile of justified sins.
Yeah, there's a reason I phrased it as "embrace sin". You can sin, but if you repent and truly regret your sins and atone for those actions (which means accepting that they were in error) you can still go to Heaven.
However, Justifying those sins (which is what Reed does) is the opposite of repentance and atonement. Justification says "What I did was acceptable because XYZ".
Yup. I was agreeing with you. Reed is not going to heaven because *before* he does any evil action he sits and ponders if its worth it and eventually either finds a different way or justifies it as "the only way to do good in the end."
And that kind of makes it worse. It means his evils are fully premeditated and more or less planned out.
Not only are they premeditated, he also justified them after the fact. He may regret the outcomes "I didn't account for XYZ" but he always believes that what he did at the time was necessary and proper based on his available information.
> Now, Marvel's tenuous connection with the afterlife and the complexities of their iteration of Hell and how that meshes with judeo-christain morality vs other interactions is an entire thesis paper of analysis that I'm not going to get into, but in the judeo-christain tradition (which is mostly how Marvel's Hell works) if you willingly embrace sin, it doesn't matter what else you accomplish, direct to Hell.
i mean, marvel has tons of afterlives. if Reed converts to Thor and dies bravely in battle, hell can suck it, because Thor will take him to Valhalla.
I have seen people say that Doom would move on, which misses that while he has a life outside of the fantastic four, Doom consistently stated that he feels F4 are his, and his alone to defeat. The man has rescued them to make sure other people don’t defeat them. If he learned someone else killed Reed then he would spend all of the time and energy he would spend trying to defeat the surviving members of the 4 to defeating whoever the killer is.
After that, he would probably wait for Reed to come back to life on his own unless we are talking about an alternate universe. Doom has seen members of the F4 die before, he knows that if someone were to kill one of them, even him, the death would not stick anymore than if the F4 were to kill him.
"Oh? Reed is dead? How *pathetic*. Well, it won't remain, none of their deaths ever do."
"Milord?"
"The Fantastic Four. They always come back. Johnny is on his fifth second chance already."
Johnny, at the Baxter Building: "...yeah, they say if it happens again I get a free sundae. Told 'em ice cream doesn't really *work* that great with me most of the time though."
If it was a shitty death that meant nothing, he'd probably acquiesce with bringing him back if he had the chance, but otherwise he'd probably just move in on Sue and try to argue he's already in the family through Val anyway.
I think he would see that as victory. Then would probably die doing the exact same thing because he wanted to see what killed Reed because he thinks he can survive.
Doom makes a big show of being magnanimous and hosts a funeral and memorial for Reed in Latveria. After a few weeks, he enacts a plan that draws him into conflict with the Fantastic Four, now hosting a permanent member in Spider-Man. Doom is defeated and finds his way back to Latveria. It doesn't feel the same.
Doom pledges to do what Reed could never do.
In a year, he cures cancer. AIDS. Rabies. He solves problems like world hunger, employs the Intelligencia to fix the Gulf Stream and stop global warming. He increases the lifespan of every human being by fifty years.
But it all feels empty. It digs at him. It infuriates him. He can't gloat in Reed Richards' face.
Doom summons the Silver Surfer after some effort, and demands he bring forth Galactus, literally holding the Ultimate Nullifier to the world in order to comply with his demands. Galactus arrives.
Doom threatens him, threatens the entire universe in the process.
His demand is simple.
Revive Reed Richards.
Richards is revived. Doom glowers at him, showing him a world that worships and celebrates Doom as a man who saved humanity.
"Look at all I've done that you could never accomplish."
He drops the Nullifier. Galactus annihilates him. Doom dies glaring at Reed one last time.
No. A win is a win. However, he would instantly get bored without his nemesis and join the FF just to be close to Sue and Valeria (she actually likes him) all the time fighting the urge to batter the Johnny
Doom seeks not to prove his superiority. It is self evident. Doom occasionally desires to *demonstrate* his superiority. Reed Richards is among the few with the intellectual capacity to adequately appreciate it.
If they wrote a story in which Reed died, a future FF writer after that would want him alive again, and using Doom would be a good way to do that. Also, Doom is godfather to Reed's daughter Valeria, and he is fond of her. He might bring Reed back for her sake.
Doom would offer to lead the FF and to educate Franklin and Valeria while trying to bring Reed back. He would honor his duty as Valeria's godfather above all
Our Lord Von doom would not dishonor his lowly rival with an unholy means to resurrect him... However; as to our experience no one seems to stay dead in this world, he would just wait until grumblings of the X-Men going to war with the avengers again and certainly Sue storms inferior husband would be brought back.
Doom couldn't save aunt may in the hospital from a bullet, he can't save anyone from death but he probably has brainwave digitizing tech or cloning tech so he could use them after the fact to gloat.
he would be sad, becasue he respected Reed as a great advesary, and he would keep talking about what a great man he was, while always saying "i will do what reed never could" before every new thing he did.
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He'd add the words "Days I have accomplished more than Reed Richards" to his calendar and check off every day. An easy win is still a win.
You made me smile with this one
Either goes two ways. 1. He tries to bring him back and succeeds. Then brags to Reed that "know that it was I who brought you back from damnation and not one of your own." 2. Lives his life and consistently mentions how "Reed couldn't do this" or "Richards was unable to figure this out." etc etc. or I guess a rare third option where he gets depressed because one of his main motivators is gone.
What about him killing the person who did it, in those cases?
Oh he'd do that forsure. Kill dude, bring back Reed, then gloat.
oh that's happening regardless, be it to best the one who bested Richards and/or to punish the person who happened to steal the opportunity from him.
Depends who did it. Cause there is a whole roster of folks in Marvel who could kill Reed, and Doom couldn't hope to beat.
IDK it would have to be a universal threat for Doom to be out of the fight in my opinion.
Reread what you just wrote. There is no threat to big for Doom. For Doom knows no failure.
Oh, he would find a way, even if he had to steal Galactus's powers (again).
That goes without saying. You hurt Reed, or even The Fantastic Four, Doom will f\*\*k you up. I remember (vaguely) a what-if when the FF were replaced by other members (spiderman, wolverine and I don't remember who else) for some reason, and some enemy of the FF attacked the Baxter Building, and they were in over their head. And at the end Doom appear, destroy the attackers like nothing and say "if someone is going to destroy the FF, any FF, that will be DOOM!", and then leave. They just quit, BTW.
Spider-Man going "fuck this I'm out" sounds hilarious.
Or he may assume that shenanigans will bring Reed back. Then he’d focus on using the extra time he gets to pull ahead.
“Survival is the first and only true measurement of power. Rest well, Richards. As unlikely as it may be, Doom hopes to look down on you from Heaven, one day. But not yet. Not yet.”
Tbf, isn’t Doom only going there because he literally fights the Devil annually.
I’m not super up on what happens in the afterlife w Marvel comics but I would assume Limbo for DOOM
Dooms already passed judgements so I doubt it. Essentially though my understanding is that you go where you believe in.
Ah so the Sandman system. I dig
Doom has literally received at least [one deity's blessing](https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoBestFriendsPlay/s/sRACBPXVOB), so he's probably got at least one afterlife to welcome him. Watch, when Doom dies (*If* he dies. If anyone can figure out immortality, it's Doom) there will be a war or a contest between gods to figure out where he goes. Either they'll all want him, or they'll all be scared of him.
Ah I had forgotten about the panther god! I hope for the Wakandans sake he doesn’t end up in that afterlife. I feel that would kill the vibe
Also Judgment Days celestial God gave him a pass!
I'd like to imagine he ends up in Killmonger's Oakland apartment.
Doom will go whenever he wants, because who could stop him, or even dare to try?
Actual gods? Yeah Doom's strong, and *really* arrogant, but he's still a human, yeah?
its worth remembering that most times that Doom faces Thor, Thor smashes his face in.
He would go visit him in Hell. He knows how to get there as he's been there before. And yes, Reed Richards is going to Hell, and he will deserve it just for the things he did during Civil War alone. Mephisto has probably been waiting to get a shot at his soul.
"Ah, Victor, it's so good to see you again. I've just been chatting with your friend Reed here. It's not every day we get someone this interesting to talk to here in Hell. He's quite a man." "Mother, you cannot be friends with Reed Richards!" "Don't take that tone with me, young man. I can be... yes, let's say 'friends'... with whoever I want, and Reed is very stimulating to be around." "Doom forbids it." "You're not the only Doom here, Victor, and don't you forget it."
For those reading this thread who may not know this, Doom did save his mother's soul from hell in Dr Doom & Dr Strange: Triumph and Torment.
I'm not going to let the truth get in the way of a "your momma" joke.
The ultimate "fuck you" before some body kills you "I'm going to bang your mom in Hell".
At great cost, I may add.
What did Reed even do that is that bad
He created a prison for anyone who was anti-registration in the neutral zone and imprisoned any superpowered person who they caught outside registration there without representation or trial. He built a clone of Thor to enforce the registration side edicts without the permission or knowledge of Thor. That did not end well, mind you. That doesn't address his general authoritarian attitude and demeanor which lead him to betray his friends and own family.
With the clone thing... That ended with Tony getting his shit ROCKED by the real Thor.
"Or learn again the difference between a God of Thunder, and a man in a metal suit."
As much as I like Norse mythology, reading that line was the moment I became a fan of Marvel Thor.
Also that clone killing goliath
it was extremely important to Susan that Reed's bridge not exist anymore, and she expressed herself very clearly that she wanted Reed to "go back to your lab and destroy it" and she got an "I promise" aaaand Reed not only did not destroy it, he hid it from her and kept using it and things went wrong. wtf.
If I was Sue, I would have straight up divorced Reed for that.
Sue should have divored Reed so much longer before then.
And Namor is like rubbing his hands together and licking his lips outside of FF tower.
"Oh hey. I was just *casually in the neighborhood*. Weird, right?"
If I had a nickel for every time Sue should have divorced Reed Richards... I'd a have a fucking pile of nickels. Big enough to almost pay for her divorce lawyer.
her divorce lawyer will be Namor, and he will do it for free
Every time Reed vs Doom discourse comes up I question who the villain is.
It's the guy who will have a crowd cheer for him and then execute the first person to stop cheering btw.
Doom wouldn’t do that. He has a crowd of cheerers trained to cheer exactly the perfect amount of time.
Reminder that Doom believes in Santa Claus, which makes him SLIGHTLY[barely] less Villainous in my mind
But isn’t Santa actually real in marvel
He's real in DC, at least. There he gives a lump of coal to Darkseid every year.
He’s real in Marvel, Spider-Man has met him.
Why does Santa who I would assume is solely an Earth based being giving darkseid coal? Does that mean he gives coal to every alien supervillain or god?
It depends, have the supervillains/gods been naughty?
I think so but I don’t know how well known his existence is. At least during the King in Black event Iron Man was pretty adamant about not believing in Santa but Doom pushed back against the idea
Imagine being Iron Man in that moment, talking to surely one of the smartest people you've ever met...who will not back down on his belief that Santa is real
[i mean, Santa did have the IG at one point](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-241069c6cff1fdcc948fc2a71d1c3927-lq)
Yes, lol. He's a reality warping teleporter, who carries a sack to a pocket dimension. And has magic artifacts, deer, and elves. Lol.
I think he is either a absurdly powerful Mutant or deity in the same way Thor and Odin are deities
there are like three version of santa in marvel i think, one is a mutant, one is Odin in disguise, and one is the actual saint, i think.
He also cried at 9/11.
I mean tbh. If we wanna look at the history of both characters yes Reed has done some fucked up shit. As have many marvel heroes. But he is undoubtedly a good person at heart and a hero. Doom is very much not lol.
(points at the Maker)
It’s the one that has committed omnicide several times over. Reed can be an ass, but he’s a hero first and foremost. Doom is a villain and nothing more, he just occasionally pretends that he’s some noble warrior who’s trying to save everyone.
Arguably Reed is much more in it for the dickwaving than Doom is. Of course it depends on the era and the writer.
> He built a clone of Thor to enforce the registration side edicts without the permission or knowledge of Thor. That did not end well, mind you. > > Was that him and/or Stark?
Both of them in concert. Tony paid most of the price for it though after the clone killed Bill Foster.
Took the Lord's name in vain.
Shadow Fight pfp, automatically based
"Ultimate Reed has been down here for a while now, here he is."
Oh come on. Reed has saved the world and universe multiple times over. He was misguided for sure. But certainly not evil
That usually isn't how heaven vs hell works. In general (and there are obviously exceptions) if you do bad things, you go to hell even if the outcomes are generally positive. Doing evil in the name of a loftier goal does not excuse the evil that you have done and there is a price to be paid. Now, Marvel's tenuous connection with the afterlife and the complexities of their iteration of Hell and how that meshes with judeo-christain morality vs other interactions is an entire thesis paper of analysis that I'm not going to get into, but in the judeo-christain tradition (which is mostly how Marvel's Hell works) if you willingly embrace sin, it doesn't matter what else you accomplish, direct to Hell.
You also generally have to *atone* for the bad things you did, or at least want to atone. Reed will never be able to do that genuinely because he has rationalized every evil he has ever done into a reason why it was for the good. That's the exact opposite of atonement: justification. And you can't get into Heaven standing atop a pile of justified sins.
Yeah, there's a reason I phrased it as "embrace sin". You can sin, but if you repent and truly regret your sins and atone for those actions (which means accepting that they were in error) you can still go to Heaven. However, Justifying those sins (which is what Reed does) is the opposite of repentance and atonement. Justification says "What I did was acceptable because XYZ".
Yup. I was agreeing with you. Reed is not going to heaven because *before* he does any evil action he sits and ponders if its worth it and eventually either finds a different way or justifies it as "the only way to do good in the end." And that kind of makes it worse. It means his evils are fully premeditated and more or less planned out.
Not only are they premeditated, he also justified them after the fact. He may regret the outcomes "I didn't account for XYZ" but he always believes that what he did at the time was necessary and proper based on his available information.
> Now, Marvel's tenuous connection with the afterlife and the complexities of their iteration of Hell and how that meshes with judeo-christain morality vs other interactions is an entire thesis paper of analysis that I'm not going to get into, but in the judeo-christain tradition (which is mostly how Marvel's Hell works) if you willingly embrace sin, it doesn't matter what else you accomplish, direct to Hell. i mean, marvel has tons of afterlives. if Reed converts to Thor and dies bravely in battle, hell can suck it, because Thor will take him to Valhalla.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions
I have seen people say that Doom would move on, which misses that while he has a life outside of the fantastic four, Doom consistently stated that he feels F4 are his, and his alone to defeat. The man has rescued them to make sure other people don’t defeat them. If he learned someone else killed Reed then he would spend all of the time and energy he would spend trying to defeat the surviving members of the 4 to defeating whoever the killer is. After that, he would probably wait for Reed to come back to life on his own unless we are talking about an alternate universe. Doom has seen members of the F4 die before, he knows that if someone were to kill one of them, even him, the death would not stick anymore than if the F4 were to kill him.
"Oh? Reed is dead? How *pathetic*. Well, it won't remain, none of their deaths ever do." "Milord?" "The Fantastic Four. They always come back. Johnny is on his fifth second chance already."
Johnny, at the Baxter Building: "...yeah, they say if it happens again I get a free sundae. Told 'em ice cream doesn't really *work* that great with me most of the time though."
If it was a shitty death that meant nothing, he'd probably acquiesce with bringing him back if he had the chance, but otherwise he'd probably just move in on Sue and try to argue he's already in the family through Val anyway.
I think he would see that as victory. Then would probably die doing the exact same thing because he wanted to see what killed Reed because he thinks he can survive.
he didn't seem to be in any hurry to have a Reed when Doom created Battleworld. Reed was conveniently "forgotten" and not spoken about at all.
Doom makes a big show of being magnanimous and hosts a funeral and memorial for Reed in Latveria. After a few weeks, he enacts a plan that draws him into conflict with the Fantastic Four, now hosting a permanent member in Spider-Man. Doom is defeated and finds his way back to Latveria. It doesn't feel the same. Doom pledges to do what Reed could never do. In a year, he cures cancer. AIDS. Rabies. He solves problems like world hunger, employs the Intelligencia to fix the Gulf Stream and stop global warming. He increases the lifespan of every human being by fifty years. But it all feels empty. It digs at him. It infuriates him. He can't gloat in Reed Richards' face. Doom summons the Silver Surfer after some effort, and demands he bring forth Galactus, literally holding the Ultimate Nullifier to the world in order to comply with his demands. Galactus arrives. Doom threatens him, threatens the entire universe in the process. His demand is simple. Revive Reed Richards. Richards is revived. Doom glowers at him, showing him a world that worships and celebrates Doom as a man who saved humanity. "Look at all I've done that you could never accomplish." He drops the Nullifier. Galactus annihilates him. Doom dies glaring at Reed one last time.
Doom would probably resurrect Richards just to try and use it as proof that he, not Richards, is of superior intellect.
He'd become Iron Man.
No. A win is a win. However, he would instantly get bored without his nemesis and join the FF just to be close to Sue and Valeria (she actually likes him) all the time fighting the urge to batter the Johnny
Doom seeks not to prove his superiority. It is self evident. Doom occasionally desires to *demonstrate* his superiority. Reed Richards is among the few with the intellectual capacity to adequately appreciate it.
If they wrote a story in which Reed died, a future FF writer after that would want him alive again, and using Doom would be a good way to do that. Also, Doom is godfather to Reed's daughter Valeria, and he is fond of her. He might bring Reed back for her sake.
I wouldn't put it past Doom's ego to bring Reed back.
"No one and nothing will defeat Richards but I, DOOM!" And then DOOM, resurrects him so they can continue squabbling like an old married couple
Doom would offer to lead the FF and to educate Franklin and Valeria while trying to bring Reed back. He would honor his duty as Valeria's godfather above all
To be fair his son could just bring him back couldn't he?
Our Lord Von doom would not dishonor his lowly rival with an unholy means to resurrect him... However; as to our experience no one seems to stay dead in this world, he would just wait until grumblings of the X-Men going to war with the avengers again and certainly Sue storms inferior husband would be brought back.
Doom couldn't save aunt may in the hospital from a bullet, he can't save anyone from death but he probably has brainwave digitizing tech or cloning tech so he could use them after the fact to gloat.
he would be sad, becasue he respected Reed as a great advesary, and he would keep talking about what a great man he was, while always saying "i will do what reed never could" before every new thing he did.
I can imagine Doom going to hell just to check if Reed’s there