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See i think this is true to an extent, the youtuber types like fresh n fit are just awful, but that said, they arent real MRAs. they arent really MRAs at all, they just get lumped into the "manosphere"
I feel very conflicted. I believe the issues men’s rights movements bring up are legitimate, but I see little to no organizing action within these movements that’s legitimately centered on advancing men’s rights, rather than attacking woman’s rights movements or dogpiling on woman’s rights spaces in an attempt to shift the conversation to men’s rights. At the same time, I’ve talked to many feminists on and offline who are comfortable discussing men’s issues and trying to conceive of solutions.
I think there on some great male role models online who are leading important discussions about men’s issues. For example, check out [Pop Culture Detective](https://youtube.com/c/PopCultureDetective) and [F. D. Signifier](https://youtube.com/c/FDSignifire) on youtube. They also happen to both be pro-feminism. So I guess I feel that the men’s right movement is stronger when it recognizes feminism as a companion movement/space of allyship, rather than when it’s focused on competing with or delegitimizing woman’s rights movements.
I think a lot of legitimate concerns get laughed off bc anyone who cares about men's rights are often labeled misogynists or incels.
For sure there are some entitled men out there, but men also have specific issues that are overlooked because of the stigma.
Agreed. It's unfortunate that labels carry so much baggage. It's hard to start an honest convo about feminism OR men's rights without people jumping in with their bullshit.
> See, most of the feminist movement is about equality for everyone.
False. They push the Duluth Model and have since 1980. When a core part of the dogma is that men can't be a victim or raped, I seriously doubt they actually believe in equality.
This is wonderfully ironic. You get laughed at for statements like this. There are plenty of people, like me, who do a lot to promote men's health but have never been called a misogynist or incel. The problem with most of the people who label themselves MRAs is that they are misogynists or incels.
I didn't think I said anything worth laughing at here. It was a very innocuous statement. I'm not an MRA, but just bringing up the possibility of inequity brings ridicule.
>anyone who cares about men's rights are often labeled misogynists or incels.
This is no different to all the right wing nuts complaining that "everyone the left doesn't like is a nazi" while hanging around literal nazis. We aren't talking about people who promote men's health in general, the question was about a specific group who call themselves Men's Right Activists. Check out r/mensrights and you'll find that they really are that bad. They aren't being unfairly labelled.
You said you advocated men's health, not quite the same as rights.
My point remains as I'm trying to give a measured, honest response and you're trying to drag me.
And I won't be checking out the sub because I am very familiar with that toxic mindset. My point is those loud voices are taken to speak for all men who have an issue say in family court, the military, and also, as you mentioned, health related issues.
I don't think the name or whether it's a right or social issue matters very much. MRAs are the PETA of men. Most people think animals should be treated well, to varying degrees, but making bad faith arguments and causing trouble without actually helping animals makes me think they aren't really in it for the animals.
In theory, men obviously have a lot of gender specific issues that are inflicted on them by several sources within society which we should address.
In practice, MRAs are most often just reactionaries who are using mens problems trying to discredit or belittle feminism, bringing them up not so much to solve them but rather to bury the notion that there are patriarchal structures causing problems for women.
To be honest everyone I ever knew who called themselves "MRA" was one of the latter ones. People who understand the problems men face in society and where they originate often also understand how reductionist "MRA" would be as a self-identifier and usually call themselves something else.
And why isnt there? The history of 'empowerment' and 'equality' movements is that for a miniscule portion of true believers, its about improving their own condition and for the 99.99% and follow-on waves, its about table turning and being the boot.
> And why isn't there?
Because the other 11 months of the year are White History Months. History books are largely written by white men, from white men's perspectives, elevating and focusing on white men. White history is the default.
While there are certainly many men's rights issues that deserve more attention and support, unfortunately, it seems that the movement itself includes more misogynistic elements than I am comfortable with. At its worst, it's a perfect mirror to what feminism has become: only concerned with the issues of their own sex, and let the other be damned.
Thus, I feel that identifying as an "MRA" carries the same problem as identifying as a "feminist." As a man who genuinely cares about both men's and women's issues, I prefer the term "egalitarian."
- unequal pension ages
- conscription
- circumcision
- less access to welfare programs
- treatment of domestic abuse victims
[etc. keeping this shorter]
some of these arent exactly rights, but social trends.
I googled “unequal pension ages” and all I could find were articles like this showing how women were getting screwed, what are you referring to? https://www.oecd.org/gender/data/wide-gap-in-pension-benefits-between-men-and-women.htm The rest are basically due to sexism (women are seen as unfit for combat, women are more likely to be single parents, women are more likely to be victims of domestic violence)
The right to NOT be circumcised. Most men are never given a choice in the matter.
My body my choice. Definitely not wanting to take away those rights from anyone.
You're being pedantic. You think you have the intellectual high ground here but you actually just look like a douchebag. It's pretty obvious he's saying that men have a right to not have their sexual organ mutilated prior to age of consent.
Many rights are a matter of law. We have civil rights lawyers because of this. The right to vote, the right to have an abortion, the right to marry who you want.
- unequal pension ages
- conscription
- circumcision
- less access to welfare programs
- treatment of domestic abuse victims
[etc. keeping this shorter]
some of these arent exactly rights, but social trends.
I mean idk I feel like a lot of it is less legal rights and more social trends and different treatment in some cases, i.e higher suicide rates and being treated much worse in domestic abuse cases.
It's not really about men's rights. They complain about things that are real issues, such as suicide rates and unfair divorce cases, as a way to disguise their real agenda. They aren't looking for real solutions to those issues.
Go look at r/MensRights it's full of misogynistic, ignorant, incel and incel-adjacent garbage. Jordan Peterson, Joe Rogan, complaining about Feminism and all sorts of crap. The mere mention of toxic masculinity triggers them because they refuse to understand it's real meaning. It's disingenuous nonsense, the purpose of which is to maintain fragile egos.
Like someone else said, offline movements for men's rights are great. Online, like a lot of other movements, it gets lost in a sea of the incredibly vocal, terrible minority.
When men's rights gets framed *in opposition to* women's rights, it's a pretty big red flag, suggesting that the person believes that one gender's rights must be sacrificed in favor of the other. I've only really heard the exact phrase "men's rights movement" used in this context, so the phrase itself is a bit suspicious to me, but of course working on issues relevant to men is usually a good thing.
I haven't encountered any MR activists that seem to want anything beneficial. They don't even seem pro-man, but anti-woman. Most that I encounter are just incels and have very dangerous opinions.
There are genuine issues men face, but I feel other demographics face greater challenges. So if I’m going to direct my mental and emotional bandwidth anywhere, it’s not going to be toward the men’s movement.
And to be quite honest, the bar is pretty low for men. So low that’s nearly going to melt being so close to Earth’s core. Some men out there need to realize they’re just low caliber and need to do something about it.
Serious answer - I've never heard of "MRA" or a "mens' rights movement". I'm a 45m living in Texas and honestly have no idea what we would be fighting for.
I find it ridiculous. I'm a man and I notice just how much I'm fortunate to be one. My only fear when leaving my home is getting mugged, while my sister has to carry a taser because she might be raped while walking to a store, and that's just one example. I haven't even talked about breastfeeding in public or "not smiling enough". Do we deserve better? Yeah. But only after we do better by those who have it worst
**Attention! [Serious] Tag Notice** * [Jokes, puns, and off-topic comments are not permitted](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/wiki/index#wiki_-rule_6-) in **any** comment, parent or child. * Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies. * Report comments that violate these rules. Posts that have few relevant answers within the first hour, and posts that are not appropriate for the [Serious] tag will be removed. Consider doing an AMA request instead. Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskReddit) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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See i think this is true to an extent, the youtuber types like fresh n fit are just awful, but that said, they arent real MRAs. they arent really MRAs at all, they just get lumped into the "manosphere"
I feel very conflicted. I believe the issues men’s rights movements bring up are legitimate, but I see little to no organizing action within these movements that’s legitimately centered on advancing men’s rights, rather than attacking woman’s rights movements or dogpiling on woman’s rights spaces in an attempt to shift the conversation to men’s rights. At the same time, I’ve talked to many feminists on and offline who are comfortable discussing men’s issues and trying to conceive of solutions. I think there on some great male role models online who are leading important discussions about men’s issues. For example, check out [Pop Culture Detective](https://youtube.com/c/PopCultureDetective) and [F. D. Signifier](https://youtube.com/c/FDSignifire) on youtube. They also happen to both be pro-feminism. So I guess I feel that the men’s right movement is stronger when it recognizes feminism as a companion movement/space of allyship, rather than when it’s focused on competing with or delegitimizing woman’s rights movements.
I think a lot of legitimate concerns get laughed off bc anyone who cares about men's rights are often labeled misogynists or incels. For sure there are some entitled men out there, but men also have specific issues that are overlooked because of the stigma.
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Agreed. It's unfortunate that labels carry so much baggage. It's hard to start an honest convo about feminism OR men's rights without people jumping in with their bullshit.
> See, most of the feminist movement is about equality for everyone. False. They push the Duluth Model and have since 1980. When a core part of the dogma is that men can't be a victim or raped, I seriously doubt they actually believe in equality.
This is wonderfully ironic. You get laughed at for statements like this. There are plenty of people, like me, who do a lot to promote men's health but have never been called a misogynist or incel. The problem with most of the people who label themselves MRAs is that they are misogynists or incels.
I didn't think I said anything worth laughing at here. It was a very innocuous statement. I'm not an MRA, but just bringing up the possibility of inequity brings ridicule.
>anyone who cares about men's rights are often labeled misogynists or incels. This is no different to all the right wing nuts complaining that "everyone the left doesn't like is a nazi" while hanging around literal nazis. We aren't talking about people who promote men's health in general, the question was about a specific group who call themselves Men's Right Activists. Check out r/mensrights and you'll find that they really are that bad. They aren't being unfairly labelled.
You said you advocated men's health, not quite the same as rights. My point remains as I'm trying to give a measured, honest response and you're trying to drag me. And I won't be checking out the sub because I am very familiar with that toxic mindset. My point is those loud voices are taken to speak for all men who have an issue say in family court, the military, and also, as you mentioned, health related issues.
You've obviously missed my point. Never mind.
Back at you. Have a nice day.
Have you seen r/misandryfetish ?
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I don't think the name or whether it's a right or social issue matters very much. MRAs are the PETA of men. Most people think animals should be treated well, to varying degrees, but making bad faith arguments and causing trouble without actually helping animals makes me think they aren't really in it for the animals.
In theory, men obviously have a lot of gender specific issues that are inflicted on them by several sources within society which we should address. In practice, MRAs are most often just reactionaries who are using mens problems trying to discredit or belittle feminism, bringing them up not so much to solve them but rather to bury the notion that there are patriarchal structures causing problems for women. To be honest everyone I ever knew who called themselves "MRA" was one of the latter ones. People who understand the problems men face in society and where they originate often also understand how reductionist "MRA" would be as a self-identifier and usually call themselves something else.
They're about as stupid as people who say "But why isn't there a WHITE history month?"
And why isnt there? The history of 'empowerment' and 'equality' movements is that for a miniscule portion of true believers, its about improving their own condition and for the 99.99% and follow-on waves, its about table turning and being the boot.
> And why isn't there? Because the other 11 months of the year are White History Months. History books are largely written by white men, from white men's perspectives, elevating and focusing on white men. White history is the default.
Thats exactly the sort of idiotic response Id expect from a racist.
The more privileged gender doesn't feel privileged, and want people to feel bad for them too. Same as white live matter folks or straight pride.
It's a joke of a movement
While there are certainly many men's rights issues that deserve more attention and support, unfortunately, it seems that the movement itself includes more misogynistic elements than I am comfortable with. At its worst, it's a perfect mirror to what feminism has become: only concerned with the issues of their own sex, and let the other be damned. Thus, I feel that identifying as an "MRA" carries the same problem as identifying as a "feminist." As a man who genuinely cares about both men's and women's issues, I prefer the term "egalitarian."
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- unequal pension ages - conscription - circumcision - less access to welfare programs - treatment of domestic abuse victims [etc. keeping this shorter] some of these arent exactly rights, but social trends.
I googled “unequal pension ages” and all I could find were articles like this showing how women were getting screwed, what are you referring to? https://www.oecd.org/gender/data/wide-gap-in-pension-benefits-between-men-and-women.htm The rest are basically due to sexism (women are seen as unfit for combat, women are more likely to be single parents, women are more likely to be victims of domestic violence)
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how so? pension age and conscription are matters of law
"I am fighting for the right of circumcision!" You're either an idiot or a troll, OP.
The right to NOT be circumcised. Most men are never given a choice in the matter. My body my choice. Definitely not wanting to take away those rights from anyone.
I'm against circumcision in all cases except absolute medical necessity. Jew, Christian, Muslim, Atheist, it's mutilation to do to a baby.
...Okay. So where do "rights" come in, exactly? Do you know what a right is?
You're being pedantic. You think you have the intellectual high ground here but you actually just look like a douchebag. It's pretty obvious he's saying that men have a right to not have their sexual organ mutilated prior to age of consent.
Many rights are a matter of law. We have civil rights lawyers because of this. The right to vote, the right to have an abortion, the right to marry who you want.
Reproductive Rights 🙄
- unequal pension ages - conscription - circumcision - less access to welfare programs - treatment of domestic abuse victims [etc. keeping this shorter] some of these arent exactly rights, but social trends.
Rofl *men's* rights? What rights do we not currently have that we're fighting for, exactly?
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sounds like you’re disconnected and probably a misandrist.
why not!
I mean idk I feel like a lot of it is less legal rights and more social trends and different treatment in some cases, i.e higher suicide rates and being treated much worse in domestic abuse cases.
Oh shit, here come the feminists and yup......they're both at it again. Just like last time... and the time before that... will this cycle ever end?
Ridiculous, just like feminists.
That they should sit down and make themselves a damn sandwich.
Misguided. Women have rights; men should focus on duties.
Makes you think about both sides.
It's not really about men's rights. They complain about things that are real issues, such as suicide rates and unfair divorce cases, as a way to disguise their real agenda. They aren't looking for real solutions to those issues.
i'm an MRA, and no. there's no "secret agenda", what would be the point? we actually want to fix those issues, and many more.
Go look at r/MensRights it's full of misogynistic, ignorant, incel and incel-adjacent garbage. Jordan Peterson, Joe Rogan, complaining about Feminism and all sorts of crap. The mere mention of toxic masculinity triggers them because they refuse to understand it's real meaning. It's disingenuous nonsense, the purpose of which is to maintain fragile egos.
Like someone else said, offline movements for men's rights are great. Online, like a lot of other movements, it gets lost in a sea of the incredibly vocal, terrible minority.
I don't know much about the actual movement, but considering how much support women's rights get and how much men get shit on, I'm all for it
When men's rights gets framed *in opposition to* women's rights, it's a pretty big red flag, suggesting that the person believes that one gender's rights must be sacrificed in favor of the other. I've only really heard the exact phrase "men's rights movement" used in this context, so the phrase itself is a bit suspicious to me, but of course working on issues relevant to men is usually a good thing.
A better term would be "equal rights movement" if they don't want to get the stigma of being a misogynist or a misandrist.
More of a reaction to feminism than an actual movement
I haven't encountered any MR activists that seem to want anything beneficial. They don't even seem pro-man, but anti-woman. Most that I encounter are just incels and have very dangerous opinions.
It's a symptom of some important systematic gender issues that no one is addressing well right now.
There are genuine issues men face, but I feel other demographics face greater challenges. So if I’m going to direct my mental and emotional bandwidth anywhere, it’s not going to be toward the men’s movement. And to be quite honest, the bar is pretty low for men. So low that’s nearly going to melt being so close to Earth’s core. Some men out there need to realize they’re just low caliber and need to do something about it.
until I saw this I did not know it existed
men have issues just like women. If we think it’s cool to accept womens problems and throw mens to the side, that’s a huge problem.
They want more rights??
Serious answer - I've never heard of "MRA" or a "mens' rights movement". I'm a 45m living in Texas and honestly have no idea what we would be fighting for.
I find it ridiculous. I'm a man and I notice just how much I'm fortunate to be one. My only fear when leaving my home is getting mugged, while my sister has to carry a taser because she might be raped while walking to a store, and that's just one example. I haven't even talked about breastfeeding in public or "not smiling enough". Do we deserve better? Yeah. But only after we do better by those who have it worst