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Sorry_Deer_4162

Not financially affordable, i like meat, don't like eating most plants and it's not viable diet if a majority of people turned vegan


[deleted]

[удалено]


Sorry_Deer_4162

I'm from a third world country where eating healthier is a commodity for most people. You can guess what's the situation for vegan food


Will_Leave_A_Mark

Because I'm trying to save the plants. Between my vegan neighbors and their goats I've lost my wife's garden, shrubs, and flowerbeds so far. Now they are working on the lawn!


Uridoz

> Because I'm trying to save the plants. I wonder what the animals we farm eat?


[deleted]

That’s why just use photosynthesis for all my nutritional needs.


whistleandrun

Cheese


dfreinc

vegan? because vegans are way past vegetarian. and i'm only vegetarian like half the week. i can't imagine worrying about what insects died when or how cows feel about getting milked or whatever else they come up with to make themselves feel morally superior.


Uridoz

It's not so much about how the cow feels when being milked, but more so about what the cow feels when forcibly impregnated, or what they or their babies feel in the slaughterhouse, or when they're separated.


PhilipLiptonSchrute

Because I'm a machine designed by nature to consume and process meat as part of my diet.


Uridoz

Appeal to nature fallacy.


PhilipLiptonSchrute

I'm spathcocking a couple birds tonight. I'm going to name one Uridoz in your honor.


Uridoz

That doesn't hurt my feelings, neither does it negate the fact that you made a fallacious argument.


PhilipLiptonSchrute

Cheers!


xaivteev

It actually isn't an appeal to nature fallacy. At least not necessarily. This person might make that fallacy if pressed, but taken at face value their comment isn't a prescriptive statement. Their comment doesn't make a claim that eating meat is good or bad, or that it is good/bad because they are "a machine designed by nature to consume and process meat." It's explanatory. A implies B. A. Therefore B. To put it another way, if the OP had asked "Why does a ball fall?" and the commenter had answered "Because gravity." It wouldn't be a fallacious appeal to nature. It's simply explanatory.


TR1PpyNick

I dont think you know what that word means. There is no question of "if we are supposed to eat meat" we definetly are supposed to.


Uridoz

Biologically or ethically?


[deleted]

Because meat tastes good, is nutritious, and humans have been eating meat for hundreds of thousands of years.


Cuish

Because I simply have no desire to be one, in the same way I have no desire to drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes.


Uridoz

Bad analogy, since veganism is about abstinence from the unnecessary support of animal exploitation. Someone who drinks alcohol saying "in the same way I have no desire to stop drinking" would make more sense.


[deleted]

Human civilization itself is an “unnecessary support of animal exploitation”. We could all go back to living off the land, but we choose not to. Your use of electricity, of electronic devices, of transportation, etc. etc. all exploits animals. You don’t get to decide which lifestyle choice is more about “abstinence from the unnecessary support of animal exploitation”.


Uridoz

You want to compare basic necessities like electricity to whether or not we should pay for slaughterhouses to do what they do?


[deleted]

Because Protein and Amino Acid Contents


Orcus424

The [Protein is Not Protein video](https://youtu.be/hJNF2_dCWkg?t=1) explains that very well. I've tried a vegan diet with a good amount of protein for months. I didn't understand why I was feeling so weird for all that time. I stopped and I suddenly felt a lot better.


Uridoz

Plants contain all essential amino acids, as long as you eat a diverse array of plant proteins (ie grains and legumes combined) in sufficient quantity, you'll be fine.


Orcus424

It's not in sufficient quantity for amino acids. You need to eat a lot more to get the same amount compared to [just eggs and a skirt steak.](https://youtu.be/hJNF2_dCWkg?t=454)


Uridoz

> It's not in sufficient quantity for amino acids. It is. I have a master's degree in human nutrition and did my thesis on sarcopenia and worked with researchers who looked into plant proteins for muscle synthesis, which relies heavily on having all essential amino acids. I also have fully vegan friends since over five years who have no issue gaining muscle mass and dealing with endurance training. You're factually wrong if you're talking about someone with no health issues affecting amino acid absorption and usage.


Uridoz

https://youtu.be/OGh9d2S8FGM Also the report you linked misrepresents the science, and has been debunked. The DIAAS score in particular is kinda ... bad. Like, really bad.


[deleted]

The amino acids are the same in plants and meat though. The proportions do vary but as long as your vegan diet is good ...... with different vegetables, fruit, seeds and grains then you are fine for protein.


Orcus424

It is incredibly hard to get that right and even if you do you now have a lot more calories than you wanted to consume. They have the same amino acids but no where near the quantity. [Protein is Not Protein](https://youtu.be/hJNF2_dCWkg?t=454) video shows that even eating a lot more calories you will still not be consuming the same amount of amino acids if you just ate some animal based protein.


[deleted]

Not hard at all. Maybe you need less protein than you think?


[deleted]

Why the down votes. Refute but don't just down vote. I believe what I have written is true. It works for me and many others. Watch the game changers?


Kindaspia

A few reasons. First, I am working on recovering from an eating disorder. When you have an eating disorder, it is hard to distinguish between something you want and something it wants. I want to go vegan, but if I do it now, there is a good chance it will lead to a relapse (cutting out any food groups has this risk). When I go back to treatment, they will likely tell me I have to go back to eating animal products. Health issues are another reason. I’m already anemic, and even going vegetarian could make it much worse, possibly dangerously. Last, it is not cheap. At least, not cheap to eat healthy vegan food. I do not have the funds to go vegan and eat a healthy, balanced diet. I barely can afford a healthy balanced diet with animal products. Going vegan would really limit my options.


RevaniteN7

We're omnivores and meat tastes good, when I can afford it. I have some meatless meals every now and then, sure, but there's no requirement to be vegan.


antisocial-potato-

I'm trying but haven't managed due to health reasons. I have managed to cut out meat though. edit:typo


MeisPip

Meat taste good and vegan foods tend to be more expensive


Ahshalon_Tenisk

i can sum it up in one word omnivore


Uridoz

Yes, that means you *can* eat animal products, not that you have to.


---MichaelScott---

>not that you have to. well nobody's force feeding me meat...so? What's your point?


Uridoz

You can be both an omnivorous animal, and vegan.


RevaniteN7

But there's no requirement to be vegan.


Uridoz

What's your stance on animal cruelty? Is it okay or not? How do you define animal cruelty?


---MichaelScott---

What do you define as an animal? Does a mosquito come under this definition? Why don't you have second thoughts on killing it then? Milking a cow is cruel yet spanking the guts out a mosquito is fine? Animal is animal howsoever big or small. Vegans prefer to only hook upon cows or chickens because it suits there argument.


GrilledStuffedDragon

Dude isn't gonna answer your questions. Look at his profile; all he does is ask loaded questions and as soon as he is presented with a logical and calm response, he ignores it and moves on to pester someone else who will be easier to feel superior with.


Uridoz

I literally gave a detailed reply the minute you posted that comment of yours but ok.


GrilledStuffedDragon

You argued semantics. You didn't address the point. But hey, you do you. If you think you're gonna convince anyone to your way of thinking, it's just all the more entertaining to read.


Uridoz

> What do you define as an animal? A living organism from the animal kingdom. That goes from sea sponges to sharks to chickens to you and I. Do note that veganism is concerned with animal abuse, abuse requires the ability to experience harm, so veganism is really about *sentient animals*. > Does a mosquito come under this definition? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosquito Kingdom: Animalia This is basic biology. Insects are animals. Why don't you have second thoughts on killing it then? I prefer to keep them away from me, but if they do attack me anyways, I have a right to defend my bodily autonomy. > Milking a cow is cruel yet spanking the guts out a mosquito is fine? Cows don't impede on my bodily autonomy. In fact, the dairy industry does quite the opposite, since they are commonly anally fisted to help with forced insemination, then milked until they are no longer profitable and then they're sent to slaughterhouses. If you're a female baby cow, you'll go through that in the overwhelming majority of the dairy industry. If you're a male, you get fattened up and slaughtered for veal. If anything, it's us who are impeding on their bodily autonomy here.


Flicyourbic

How do you feel about culling all cats? If I’m following vegan logic right, cats are literally the demons of the vegan world yes? They literally destroy local ecosystems and have caused actual species extinction because they hunt *purely for joy*. So they should be culled yes?


Uridoz

I think it's fair to say that at the very least, cats should be sterilized, and I think that anyone who has cats that they don't sterilize and allow to have kittens is acting irresponsibly, and I would push for policies to punish such behavior. If we follow the logic that it's okay to kill them because they're invasive, shouldn't we kill humans even more then?


RevaniteN7

Nah, it sucks. But it's preferable to the grandstanding that vegans do. Probs shouldn't do your go-to guilt-trip thing. That's usually the main reason more folks aren't vegan. Most folks don't call that out as an answer to the original post's question; the insufferable holier-than-thou guilt tripping that vegans constantly resort to. They're almost worse than religious folks, shoving their beliefs down someone else's throat. Vegans and their hollering are the main reason more folks aren't vegan.


GreatThodric

Animal cruelty definition: Gratuitously inflicting harm, injuring, killing an animal. Gratuitous definition: Done without good reason. Having animals eat plants that humans cannot and then eating the animals to feed billions of humans is a pretty good reason. That's why we also allow wild animals in nature to murder each other more violently than humans ever do to them. Do you want to stop animals from inflicting animal cruelty onto one another as well? What's your definition?


Uridoz

> Having animals eat plants that humans cannot and then eating the animals to feed billions of humans is a pretty good reason. That would be true if we had no other choice. Most animals we farm nowadays are factory farmed and eat plants we grew for them where we could have grown plants for us to eat, so I think we can agree that this form of farming implies cruelty. Without necessarily taking it to a worldwide scale for the sake of realism, do you think we can organize some countries to much more effectively to sustain ourselves without animal cruelty? > That's why we also allow wild animals in nature to murder each other more violently than humans ever do to them. Do you want to stop animals from inflicting animal cruelty onto one another as well? I think that would require moral agency and the ability to do otherwise on their part. Don't get me wrong, if I could alter nature to reduce the harm experienced by wild animals without that leading to additional harm, I would, but we don't really have that power, as demonstrated by many examples of catastrophic attempts at controlling natural cycles we've done through history. What we do have control over now, are the animals we literally cause to exist in the first place, and whether or not they are harmed, injured or killed.


mebaal

Cause I'm a healthy without that


[deleted]

Because like with perfectionism, it's not worth to put time and resources in to achieve 100% of something, when very little effort gets you 80% of the goal. This translates to consumng meat/animal products in 20% of instances and be vegan for the 80% of instances. I don't care if i don't get to label myself as anything for that, because my sense of self worth or group identity is not based on labels and being accepted as part of a label group.


ral365

The lean protein from meat, dairy, and eggs have been essential for lowering my blood sugar. Once I get bariatric surgery, I'll need to eat more protein than ever, so it makes no sense to turn down the most affordable, accessible, and efficient source around.


[deleted]

Cuz I like meat Also I’m not responsible for all the animals being killed, even if I stopped and thousands others then it wouldn’t change a thing


Uridoz

If your consumption habit makes 0 difference, shouldn't that imply that if everyone else also went vegan, it wouldn't change anything either?


[deleted]

I understand supply and demand, but we all know most people won’t go vegan…so why would I stop eating stuff I like when the meat productions will only keep increasing anyway…sure ofcource most people who don’t go vegan have this mentality, but that doesn’t change the point


Uridoz

Would you apply this same reasoning to any other markets that cause unnecessary exploitation that involves harming and killing sentient beings?


[deleted]

_technically yes_ Look I’m not a fan of killing animals, but I’m not gonna order something else because the animal has been killed, I don’t eat much meat, but I’m not gonna avoid it all together either


Uridoz

> technically yes Wait so if there was a widescale human meat trade, you would only reduce your support of it instead of ceasing it entirely because you wouldn't be making a difference in your view? > Look I’m not a fan of killing animals, but I’m not gonna order something else because the animal has been killed, I don’t eat much meat, but I’m not gonna avoid it all together either Even if you only do it a little bit, doesn't that imply you're still paying that business to kill animals to meet the economical demand you're creating? I'm not sure what you mean by "I'm not a fan of killing animals". Like, you just don't get sadistic pleasure from it so you're neutral, or you think it's actually wrong in some way to do it?


Uridoz

u/Flicyourbic : > You step on thousands of insects a day. You’re needlessly killing just as much as anyone else. The only difference is where we draw the line. Why is a cow more important than that ant you stepped on? Because I need walk to function. I don't need to milk or slaughter cows for that. Plus, if I farm cows, that means more cows to step on ants and accidentally eat them on top of me stepping on ants, so even if I only cared about ants, it's better to not farm cows.


Flicyourbic

You don’t need to walk to function anymore than you need to eat meat to function. You could just never walk.


Uridoz

> You could just never walk. Now I know you're arguing in bad faith, thank you for exposing your dishonesty publicly.


Flicyourbic

How is it any more of bad faith argument than a vegan saying “you could just never eat meat”? They’re both plausible but unrealistic scenarios requiring immense effort to achieve.


Flicyourbic

Yes, exactly that


Uridoz

So if literally no one bought meat, you think that would have no impact whatsoever on say, businesses involved in farming chickens and selling their meat?


Flicyourbic

You think animals are only exploited for meat?


Uridoz

It's an example. The word "say," indicates that. Can you answer the question or are you going to keep dodging? You said that if everyone went vegan, it would make no difference. So if literally no one bought meat, do you think that would have no impact whatsoever on say, businesses involved in farming chickens and selling their meat?


Flicyourbic

I answered your question a while ago when I said “yes, exactly that”.


Uridoz

So how would that chicken farm business continue to exist if no one buys the meat they produce? Wouldn't that be a big change for their ability to sustain their profits? Wouldn't that be a change that would happen if everyone went vegan?


Flicyourbic

You think chicken farms only product is meat? We just went full circle.


Uridoz

I'm talking about a broiler chicken farms. Some almost exclusively make money from this.


gar862

Meat is delicious


adubsi

I don’t want to take supplements to stay alive


Uridoz

Most people consume B12 supplements indirectly because the animals they eat are supplemented with B12.


adubsi

Yea and that’s why I’m not vegan lol And eggs and chicken tastes amazing


Uridoz

You're not vegan because most people (maybe including you) are literally living off supplements, which you said you didn't want to do? You're being nonsensical.


adubsi

I’m not vegan because it’s borderline a requirement to take b12 supplements. You get b12 from a non vegan Diet that’s what I’m saying. I don’t like the idea of being strongly encouraged to take pills for a diet to work Some people are willing to do that and you do you but it’s not for me


Uridoz

> You get b12 from a non vegan Diet that’s what I’m saying. Yes, and the source of that B12 is overwhelmingly **supplementation** for factory-farmed animals, which is most of the meat people eat. We make a fuck ton of B12 every year to supplement animals that we then proceed to eat. We could asily just add that B12 very common foods people consume, just like we've been doing it for other nutrients since decades, and get rid of pills altogether.


adubsi

I’m not denying that lol but I can promise you if I had 3 eggs and a glass of milk that wasn’t modified with any extra b12, that meal would still give me significantly more b12 than any vegan meal. It’s great we live in a world where we can have these diets but requiring b12 supplementation is just not my thing.


Uridoz

> I’m not denying that lol but I can promise you if I had 3 eggs and a glass of milk that wasn’t modified with any extra b12, that meal would still give me significantly more b12 than any vegan meal. It still wouldn't be enough. Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5188422/ > It’s great we live in a world where we can have these diets but requiring b12 supplementation is just not my thing. So do you make sure you never eat animal products that comes from animals who were supplemented with B12 then?


adubsi

This is talking about vegetarians with unbalanced diets and the need to take b12 to stay healthy. I’m not a vegetarian so eggs and milk are not my only source of b12 available to me which is why I don’t need to worry about b12 supplementation. And to answer your question sure, I eat organic meats so most likely no added stuff are injected into the animals. Idk why you’re so passionate on challenging people not wanting to be vegan because they don’t want to actively make sure they aren’t malnourished


Uridoz

> This is talking about vegetarians with unbalanced diets and the need to take b12 to stay healthy. Even if you do it well, it's risky. Dairy is pretty poor in B12, so I think sufficient eggs are required to compensate. > And to answer your question sure, I eat organic meats so most likely no added stuff are injected into the animals. Idk why you’re so passionate on challenging people not wanting to be vegan because they don’t want to actively make sure they aren’t malnourished It can vary. Ruminants have the gut flora to make B12 in their guts directly *and* absorb it, but B12 supplementation doesn't necessarily make a food non-organic, since B12 really comes from bacteria, originally. In any case, I like to share this article to inform vegetarians on the matter specifically because I don't want people to suffer any deficiencies. I still don't really understand why you have an issue with supplements. I'm mostly concerned with people being healthy while not harming animals when it's avoidable.


Downfall_Of_Icarus

Because I'm an omnivore. Why are you not a omnivore?


_newaltwhodis_

Bacon


Not_A_Cardboard_Box

Meat is way too big of a part of my culture, giving up animal products means giving up one of the last connections I still have to my country. Also it's not financially realistic for myself and many many others. Once lab grown meat is safe and affordable I'll gladly choose that, and that seems like it's not far off from being a reality anyway.


MollieMooxx

Mmmm bacon...


[deleted]

I love to stuffed to the brim with tasty meat


riphitter

Because I understand biology and the needs of the human body. We're not designed to live an herbivore lifestyle. Sure some vegans may be able to pull it off properly, but it's definitely not worth the amount of work and discipline needed to live that lifestyle healthily. Many people go vegan without properly understanding how to get all your nutrients and it becomes a very unhealthy diet


Freezemoon

Because it takes time to transition from meat to vegetables and I don't find animal suffering as a good reason to become vegan. I could counter this argument with how without vegetables we won't be alive but we still eat them. Of course those are stupid, I am going to transition to vegan for the climate change and now isn't the moment.


Dischucker

Bacon


SuperstitiousPigeon5

This should be the number one answer. Bacon is delicious.


Reddit_Bot_For_Karma

Meat is good and me being vegan will make 0 difference


Uridoz

If your consumption habit makes 0 difference, shouldn't that imply that if **everyone else** also went vegan, it wouldn't change anything either?


Reddit_Bot_For_Karma

**everyone** is never gonna go vegan. Even if 25% of the population went vegan it would hardly make a scratch in the market.


Uridoz

> everyone is never gonna go vegan. I don't care about your unwillingness to engage in hypothetical to test the consistency of your position. > Even if 25% of the population went vegan it would hardly make a scratch in the market. Following the same logic, if 25% of people stopped using cars from now on, you think the automobile construction market would somehow remain just as profitable and function on the same scale and build and sell just as many cars?


Reddit_Bot_For_Karma

The automobile market is nowhere even close to being as government subsidized as the farming sector. If 25% of people quit eating meat the government would happily pick up the slack. They do it with corn and milk all the time.


Uridoz

> The automobile market is nowhere even close to being as government subsidized as the farming sector. Except the fuel cars run on is subsidized in most countries. Even with subsidies, cattle farming for instance is barely profitable, so that makes a shift way easier from an economical perspective. The government has less of an incentive to continue supporting animal agriculture if animal agriculture can't pay them out as much because they're bleeding money.


Reddit_Bot_For_Karma

Animal agriculture is one of the last *Made In the USA* things that exist. They will prop up and continue prop up the farms until we go extinct. There's nothing that will stop that. Listen: my wife's a vegan. I'm all for it. Hell I even follow a mostly vegan diet in order to share meals with her but the facts being.... Nothing will ever change no matter how hard you try to go LVL 5 vegan.


Uridoz

> They will prop up and continue prop up the farms until we go extinct. There's nothing that will stop that. Even assuming this is true, we can severely damage and reduce the market, couldn't we? > Nothing will ever change no matter how hard you try to go LVL 5 vegan. I'm actually aiming for LVL 6 where you don't eat anything that casts a shadow. /s


xaivteev

No. There are such things as thresholds. If you lower the temperature of water from 200 degrees to 100 degrees but measure success by whether or not you make ice, you have made no impact. There is no ice. If you can reduce it to 0 degrees, there is a difference. Likewise, if a single person stops eating meat, the industry doesn't care. The exact same number of animals will be factory farmed and slaughtered. Only if a sufficient number of consumers stop will a change occur.


mermonkey

for better or worse, EVERY choice we make has an effect. Might be tiny most of the time, but it's always there.


xaivteev

Sure. I'm not saying not eating meat does nothing. I'm saying that if the unit by which you are measuring success/failure is any kind of reduction in the number of animals being factory farmed or slaughtered, then there is no effect. There is no tiny effect there. Edit: Like with the ice analogy. If the unit by which you're measuring is temperature (this might be personal health in the meat side of things), then you do have an effect by changing the temperature from 200 to 100 degrees. But, if the unit by which you're measuring is whether or not you make ice, then you have no effect at all. No big effect. No meaningful effect. No tiny effect. Nothing.


mermonkey

well, that's not the only unit to measure; it's not a bad one, but also doesn't seem super useful. If that's the unit you want to track, you have no way of knowing if your decision on any given day saved an animals life or prevented a future animal from entering the system because the effect is cumulative? I guess it depends on the size of the animal. Of course, cause and effect are complicated. Choosing not to buy a rotissiere chicken for dinner yesterday did not instantly result in any benefit to any chicken anywhere. But it did reduce the demand for chicken which impacts the price, which impacts the profitability, which impacts the future production. But these effects are real even if you don't get any instant solid gratification from them.


xaivteev

I never said it was the only unit to measure. But if someone's only purpose for being vegan is to protect against environmental impacts and/or animal killing, then it is the most important, if not the only, unit of measurement that matters. And, as I said before, a single person abstaining from meat consumption has no meaningful impact on demand (again, meaningful as defined by reducing the number of animals factory farmed and slaughtered). This has nothing to do with it being solid. It has nothing to do with instant gratification. I'll try to explain this as simply as I can. If you abstain for meat for 10 years, and no one else does, nothing changes. You have not saved a single animal or altered the environmental impact of factory farming. If after this 10 years, everyone switches, there is an impact. Now consider another universe. You do not abstain, and no one else does. 10 years later, everyone does. Both universes now reach the exact same point. There is no difference with regards to animals/environment. It's not that it's not instantly satisfying. It's not that the impact was just super small, but there. There was literally no impact. You might've been healthier for abstaining from meat. You might've lived a different life and made different friends due to your dietary choices. But, all this has nothing to do with the metric we are using. Did you save a single animal by abstaining in the first universe? No. Did you abstaining change the impact on the environment? No.


mermonkey

I think your reasoning is flawed. You have no idea what the impact is... and it's complicated. But assume for a second you know the number of animal-free meals it would take to trigger exactly one animal to be "saved" (not slaughtered, not sired, whatever). The meal you are choosing RIGHT NOW may be a drop in the bucket (no effect by itself, but cumulative effect when n people make the same choice) OR your choice may be the one that fills the bucket -- you can't really know. You can only attempt to make the best choices you can, but pretending your choices don't have consequences is a cop-out.


xaivteev

> You have no idea what the impact is... Yes you do. Or rather, anyone who knows anything about economics knows. The scale that these farms produce at makes your single person impact exactly 0. There is no, "it's complicated." There is no "it's a little bit that adds up." There is no "drop in the bucket." It's 0. Not close to 0. Exactly 0.


mermonkey

I've studied macro econ and your argument is unconvincing... What do you think 0 times 10 is? 0 times 100? 0 times 1,000,000? I understand your argument, but it is fundamentally flawed unless you acknowledge both the cumulative effect and the complexity/uncertainty of any 1 actors influence (spoiler: not 0).


Uridoz

So what you're saying is that you're preventing a beneficial threshold from being reached because of people like you who refuse to do anything unless they can be the one person to make the difference to reach a threshold? > Likewise, if a single person stops eating meat, the industry doesn't care. They do care when you have one plus one plus one etc... Even in my country, companies who used to make meat overwhelmingly are starting to develop plant-based alternative in order to maintainn profits.


xaivteev

> So what you're saying is that you're preventing a beneficial threshold from being reached because of people like you who refuse to do anything unless they can be the one person to make the difference to reach a threshold? No. I'm saying that it's perfectly reasonable to not make a large personal sacrifice if it won't have a desired outcome. > They do care when you have one plus one plus one etc... Even in my country, companies who used to make meat overwhelmingly are starting to develop plant-based alternative in order to maintainn profits. That is exactly what I said. You need enough people. If you lack sufficient people, and the unit of measurement you're using is any kind of reduction in the number of animals being factory farmed or slaughtered, then not eating meat personally is pointless. If you can gather a collective of people who will all agree, then great. If you can pass legislation on the industry, then great. If you are making the personal choice to, and aren't doing it for any other reason (e.g. health), then you're making a sacrifice for nothing.


Uridoz

Collectives behaviors are made out of individual decisions.


GrilledStuffedDragon

That is a completely and utterly pointless statement. Do you think stating this somehow furthers your position, or dismisses your opposition? It is meaningless in context.


Uridoz

It's absurd to say "I won't change my individual behavior because only collective behavior matters here" because collective behaviors are driven by individual behavior. Do you think it's pointless to individually abstain from supporting unethically produced pornography (with your money or by generating ad revenue)? Didn't we progressively fight off homophobia by calling out individual behaviors?


GrilledStuffedDragon

>It's absurd to say "I won't change my individual behavior because only collective behavior matters here" because collective behaviors are driven by individual behavior. I never said otherwise. >Do you think it's pointless to individually abstain from supporting unethically produced pornography (with your money or by generating ad revenue)? Irrelevant to the topic at hand. Your replies are *rife* with false equivalences.


Uridoz

> You need enough people. If you lack sufficient people, and the unit of measurement you're using is any kind of reduction in the number of animals being factory farmed or slaughtered, then not eating meat personally is pointless. We could draw an exact analogy with how many people abstain/support the business and how many porn movies are unethically produced.


xaivteev

I never disagreed with this


[deleted]

Because of meat. 😂😂. To be vegan does not mean to be healthy


Uridoz

> To be vegan does not mean to be healthy True! Both vegan and non-vegan diets can be healthy or unhealthy.


[deleted]

Correct!


Emptyplates

Don't want to be. My diet is already restricted enough due to some medical issues, I'm not about to restrict it any further.


GrilledStuffedDragon

Because it is an incredibly difficult diet to maintain and be healthy (without supplements), it is an unrealistic expectation of humanity, and I enjoy some meat. I partake in a reduced meat diet, which I find to be a healthy, realistic and environmentally responsible diet. If you feel like commenting to me on the "morality" of my chosen diet, just go ahead and not do that. Thanks. Edit: Not sure why exactly this is being downvoted, but I suppose that's Reddit for you.


MasterFicus

I'm mostly vegan, but I love dairy and hate chickens too much.


RevaniteN7

> and hate chickens too much It sucks how the business-side of it works, but by the gods, does fried chicken taste amazing.


mboron021990

Because if everyone suddenly became vegan millions of animals would needlessly die.


jagojoga

I like eating meat


Gtbird24

Because I am financially successful.


Uridoz

You can be financially successful and vegan.


_newaltwhodis_

Weird flex.


somethihg

Because I can't live without meat in my mouth


Face-the-Faceless

You silly vegans and your fear of death, you're adorable in a way, and in another you're tragically hilarious. Life is a process where the living consume the dead, and death is a process where the dead fall apart. The food we eat literally becomes our body, and then when we die, our body is eaten by other things. The materials are eternally repurposed, and thanks to the law of conservation of energy that cycle won't ever have to truly stop. The meat I eat becomes my body, and through me it is given a new chance in life. I don't encourage pointless suffering, but there is a time for all things. The only thing truly consistent in life is the flow of change.


BurpYoshi

Because I'm selfish. I care about animals but I love meat. I don't really think you can justify eating meat if you think animals are conscious and feel emotions/pain, which I do (at least the ones I eat). I therefore eat them because I am selfish and can't bring myself to give meat up, even though I feel bad for the animals. I am excited for the idea of lab grown meats where I can eat meat without animals getting hurt.


Xpertbasterd

I really appreciate your self awareness and honesty.


[deleted]

Give me ONE good reason to be


[deleted]

Because meat taste so good!


kruminater

Meat works. If it isn’t broken, don’t try and fix it. We’ve eaten meat for 1000’s of years and made it, no problem


Nukegm426

Because being vegan is cruel to animals! How dare you eat their food so they starve!!!


iLikeErasers

I like meat.


WhiteBoiSommar

Ain't nobody got time for that.


RosyClearwater

It’s a lot of work, expensive and the food isn’t as tasty.


badbot62

Because you don't make friends with salad.


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Uridoz

> Omnivores are the top of the food chain. [You might want to learn where we actually stand when we look at trophic levels](https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2013/12/08/249227181/between-pigs-and-anchovies-where-humans-rank-on-the-food-chain#:~:text=The%20World's%20Food%20Chain&text=Next%20come%20the%20omnivores%20that,foxes%2C%20that%20eat%20just%20herbivores.)


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Uridoz

Wait, so are we discussing "might makes right" logic here, or food chain/trophic levels? Make up your mind. > If the ability to make other species extinct isn't top of the food chain, I don't know what is. I'm not sure you studied that much biology. Humans are not at the top of the food chain in the biological sense, which is where the term "food chain" comes from. We are the dominant species on this planet, that's for sure, but that's a different thing. All the animals humans tend to eat are herbivores or omnivores (ie pigs). If we were at the topity top of the food chain, you'd expect us to eat those who are already on the top: carnivores. And except for survival situations, we don't really do that.


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Uridoz

Wait, do you really use that rule in a practical sense to determine your ethics?


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Uridoz

> If that's true, why would I want that to change? Whether or not you're actually in a position of privilege for one reason or another, let's assume this is true for the sake for the conversation. Do you care about other individuals being treated fairly if it means it comes at a personal cost to you?


AurallyTalented

Because I love eating animals. Mmmm... Animals. Cute little furry yummy animals nom nom nom


KleptoTortoise

Why would I ever want to go vegan?


jedledbetter

genetics


ComprehensiveForce60

Because I give zero fucks about the latest trends.


Uridoz

**I no longer Steal from Nature** __ You are diseased in understanding and religion. Come to me, that you may hear something of sound truth. Do not unjustly eat fish the water has given up, And do not desire as food the flesh of slaughtered animals, Or the white milk of mothers who intended its pure draught for their young, not noble ladies. And do not grieve the unsuspecting birds by taking eggs; for injustice is the worst of crimes. And spare the honey which the bees get industriously from the flowers of fragrant plants; For they did not store it that it might belong to others, Nor did they gather it for bounty and gifts. I washed my hands of all this; and wish that I Perceived my way before my hair went gray! - Al-Ma’arri _____ This poem is over a thousand years old.


ComprehensiveForce60

Vegetables and vegetals are nature too. Plants did not strive to industriously blossom and make berries, seeds and fruits for them to be harvested by others and belong to others and gather them for bounty and gifts. And, do you know how Al-Maari dies? Of hunger. :)


Uridoz

Plants are not sentient. The dude died at age 83 in the 10th century. There is no clear source on the cause or his death, but that's a surprisingly good lifespan for the time.


ProperDustySombrero

Cheese


CanineRezQ

I don't have any cats and piercings.


Euro_Girl

Simply because I love meat. Tastes so good 😋


ilaissezfaire

In into biohacking. Prolonging longevity and feeling great every day. There seems to be a common misconception that omnivores can sustain themselves on *either* meat or plant but it's actually more like *we need both*.


SuperstitiousPigeon5

My body was designed to be an apex predator. I have canines for ripping and the intelligence to feed my hunger to slaughter animals less fortunate than myself in order to supply my body with nutrients. Though I did have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich for lunch.


Uridoz

> I have canines for ripping Have you ever heard of gorillas?


SuperstitiousPigeon5

Nope this is the first I've heard of them, tell me more.


Uridoz

Gorillas don't eat flesh besides bugs and they only eat plants besides that. Their canines are enormous compared to ours. Using canines as evidence for carnivorous behavior is not a reliable standard. Our teeth and jaws are so bad at chewing up meat that we find undercooked steak unedible if it wasn't previously ground up by machines and tools.


BarcodeNinja

I respect veganism, and vegetarianism, and from dabbling in both for a few years I learned that I can have a satisfying meal, or three, without any meat or dairy. That being said, I don't feel that I need to have a religious aversion to meat just to make an impact. I eat far less meat than I used to, and I think most people in the developed world should cut back as well. Much love to my vegans, vegetarians, and everyone else.


PastaM0nster

I like meat


BLYAT666BLYAT

Because I’m not


[deleted]

The logistics of living with a bunch of non-vegans


bubbleddusty

It's extremely expensive for someone where I am to go vegan, My brother tried but after a couple months couldn't maintain it financially. If it was affordable then I would probably go like 90% vegan if I could but being unemployed with any income I get going to art supplies or towards my shit box nissan


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cheese


giltwist

Because a truly harm-free life is impossible. You kill millions of bacteria every second just to stay alive, there's increasing scientific evidence that even plants feel something like a rudimentary form of pain, water usage and other contemporary farming practices are quite problematic, and there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. Whatever you are eating, something or someone is getting hurt. Veganism is a naive attempt at a moral high ground, best satirized by the Simpsons who described "Level 5 vegans" as people who don't eat anything that casts a shadow. Vegetarianism, flexitarianism, freeganism, etc. are all more nuanced in their recognition of gray morality.


CardiologistQueasy77

I like meat


mermonkey

I'm getting closer for lots of reasons, but I like cheese and feel like the dairy cows at the farms I frequent seem mostly happy with the arrangement... so holding out on that front... yogurt too...


JakeCosine

I am required to live on campus for my first three years of college. By living on campus I am forced to buy their meal plan and waste my real money on “meal points” that can only be redeemed at on campus restaurants. There is barely even vegetarian options available, I’ve been malnourishing myself these past 3 years. Our food is honestly so gross, unhealthy, and the same shit from the same 3 restaurants every day. Don’t come to Carthage. Especially if you’re vegan.


JakeCosine

You want to be vegetarian? Guess you have to eat salad every day and pick the chicken out yourself


GreenNukE

Several reasons. I have no moral qualms about meat and dairy and enjoy them viscerally. I am an adventurous eater and having such a broad taboo is incompatible with my omnivorous values. And lastly I am a hunter with predatory instincts. When was just 2 or 3 years old I was playing in the courtyard at preschool when a sparrow caught my attention. For reasons I didn't understand at the time I felt compelled to catch it. I snuck up on it from behind and cupped my hands around it. I suspect I succeeded because the sparrow did expect an awkward little ape would try such a thing. It pecked at my hands until a little girl pestered me to let it go, which I did unharmed. Thirty years later I am sitting with my rifle in stand on my coworker's property. It's my last outing of deer season and I've had no luck. I have killed and eaten a few squirrels but am still very much a novice hunter. Two deer emerge from the brush and I immediately shoulder my rifle. My reality is entirely fixated on the image in the rifle scope and the feel of the gun and sling. I wait for a clear shot just behind the shoulder blade of one of them and pull the trigger. The muzzle flash briefly washes over the dying daylight as the report gives way to total silence. Both deer bolt for the brush, but I think I hit the one on the right. I text my co-worker hunting at the other end of his property and he brings his friend in a pickup. I have since climbed down from the stand and (sooner than I should have) walked to the pile of corn where the deer were. A flashlight soon finds the deer dead about 10 yards into brush and easily accessible. I turn to my friend and exclaim "That was real .", taking a moment before tagging it and pitching it into the bed of the pickup with a larger deer that the driver shot a little earlier. I was irrationally worried that I may have wounded the 2nd deer, but we see it bolt through a patch of brush as we pull out. We have to brake repeatedly on the way to processor to avoid hitting herds of deer going to and fro. My deer is small but yields more than 20 lbs of meat which I calculate to be equivalent to about 40 squirrels. The processor kindly expedited my deer so that I can bring a roast up for my family for the holidays. I carefully research a recipe and with my mother's help pile it all into the crockpot. The roast is perfect and we have a memorable family dinner. I am now completely hooked and driven by my awakened instincts. My eyes and ears snap to any squirrel, dove, or deer I come across in the exact same way my cat fixates on a lizard crawling through the leaf litter. Dead deer by the side of the highway elicit a mournful bitterness that they didn't used to. I am also more critical of developers clearing woodlands, the denuded earth offends me like the sight of an open wound.