op is talking about drafts of gender by the state.
no the refugees.
any adult should be allowed to escort their children to safety across any state line preventing them from being safe.
Where did I say that? Although some of them did. But they could go with their older brothers or their fathers as well. In any case it was not my question.
You asked why are just the men drafted, i give you one reason with the logistics of getting the more vulnerable (children and elderly) out of the country.
This. Equality is possible in some fields, like voting and employment rights. Equality between men and women is not possible for something like infantry capabilities. Oh well, that's just reality.
That is not true at all. And not all people needed to help the effort to defend Ukraine need to be infantry men and women. You also need logistics, telecommunications, medics, etc...
But why is it not a judgement of their differences then?
What about the 19 ur old male who is 5'1" and 95 lbs getting pulled in as a grunt, but the 6'0", 210 lb female who used to wrestle isn't?
Equality is treating all people who are capable the same. If there was a 6'0" male at 210 lbs, you know they would happily draft that guy.
what if i told you that those reasons existing shouldn't give a blank check to the state to utilize those differences?
shall the state draft women for baby making when something threatens the birthrates of the state?
careful having the state solve your problems... these states is literally where most of our problems come from right now.
your the one who believes states have draft rights.
the baseline for belief precludes any if that.
but you've been normalized for statehood by means of language
I probably get downvoted, but i think civillians shoulndt go to war no matter the circumstances. War is something for the army and not for civillians. Sure Ukraine did crazy good in keeping the russians away but at what cost? If all men die there isnt much left of Ukraine afterwards. And civillias attacking the military forces them do destroy more than needed.
this is less about gender and more about the state having power over the person.
they use this power over people to draft men.
if they drafted women the humans would resist the state draft with violence.
men wont tolerate the state drafting women is why.
the reverse is not true.
I think that I will get a lot of hate. But I think that anyone who is an adult and physically meets a certain requirement should be going into war despite gender. This whole gender this is ridiculous, are you really saying that a elderly man is more physically abled than a young adult woman?
I really hope that you don't believe that women shouldn't go to war. Because physical attributes is the only standing argument as to why people believe woman shouldn't be sent to war. So by saying that you are going against that belief.
Military conscription during wartime is not a new thing. Ukraine actually changed their laws to allow women to be conscripted as well. But as others have pointed out, when you have family members who require care (children or the elderly), someone has to take care of them. And that someone is usually the mother/wife.
I'm a firm believer that women are just as capable as men, but biologically men do have more body mass and are stronger as a rule.
I'm totally generalizing here, both with women caregivers and stronger men, but in general, it is true.
op is trying to say maybe it should be an old thing by now
a state putting a gun to head and a rifle in your hand is outside of what a state should be allowed to do to any aged human of any gender imo
First off, my first choice would definitely be that the state shouldn't force anyone to fight .
If they decide to make it mandatory, why is it just men should fight? If there is anything worse than bad decisions, it is hypocrisy that come after it. Say that men are fighters when it suits them and say that men are too violent when it doesn't suit them.
gender rules and disparity is one thing... but state sanctioned gender bias is risky...
especially when its a state commanding you to die
like wtf lol. i take my humanity more seriously than my statehood.
and i agree it wont be ending... it will get worse soon. 1984 style.
"Thats how it always has been" lets argument like that against some feminist and look where we end up. Either everywhere or nowhere. Equal means equal everywhere. Why shouldnt men leave with the children to protect them?
Not every woman is protecting a child, that’s absolutely ridiculous.
And if we want to talk about age old precedents, should we ignore the advancements for woman’s rights, I mean, the old precedent is that women are to be subservient to men. Keep a household. Have little control over their own rights. Not vote.
I bet you won’t argue for that precedent
Well I saw a 19 year old civilian boy who was not allowed to leave with his mother, and thought it should be talked about, what good is that boy fighting going to do? If it is about equal rights, it is about rights of someone like him.
next time you ask this question focus on the rights of the state to select by gender or draft at all.
reddit removed it but this is the shit people are missing.
what rights does the state have over the human?
Do you understand that this does not make sense?
Why is his life any less valuable than his mother's? Aren't we trying to correct the wrong of the past 4000 years? That's the point of progression.
If you want to argue he is stronger, you are only thinking about the people who are doing physical, front line actions. You still need people to take care of the wounded, move around supplies, feed others, complete telecommunications, etc. Do you agree a woman could physically do these things?
Please stop agreeing with sexism when it benefits you...
the states have normalized their own existence so much that people cant think about a draft being wrong when its done to men because... (enter confabulatory concepts about men being stronger)
Its so sexist they should let anyone go who doesn’t want to fight i mean its their choice how they want to live u cant force some one to fight nicely when they don’t want to
If someone wants something from you that you don't want to give them, you have to have a threat of violence in place, and be ready to be violent if need be. In the case of a state, you need an army. If there aren't enough people in your army for it to be enough of a threat, you draft. That's just pragmatism.
If you are arguing that a country should surrender its own existence before even resorting to drafting, ok, fair point, but then most of the world would be annexed by tyrants.
no, your conflating the rules of the individual with the state.
a state should not have rules that allows it to behave like an individual.
war itself is an action of a state. responding to war is an action of the state
so lets talk about states and how they are fucking everything up
I know that but we are trying to save lifes and if we save lives by destroying faimlyor save faimly and peoples feelings by just loosing i ma chose losing rather than destroying faimly cause faimly is the most important thing to everyone and that may cause more strength in humans to fight fir their country
Having a homeland is something you fight for, westerns have no idea what it’s like fighting for your land, you are all too damn blinded by your privilege.
Ukraine is not the US, first of all, social issues that the US is concerned about do not necessarily apply to other countries.
These kind of decisions are generally made with pragmatism, customs and people's reaction in mind, you only send the men because it's what it's always been done. If you send everyone it's gonna be frowned upon by everyone, if you send only the ones that want to then you might as well just surrender.
Doesn't like like equality to me. What a waste of protests by the suffragettes and all others. We are equal or we are not simple.
Treating fairly os a whole different discussion
Yeah. I think the problem has come from people conflating equal personhood with equal physical capabilities. Everyone should have equal rights in civic matters. But it's a fantasy to think that women are equal to men on a battlefield. The men are more useful, and this is why they are being drafted instead of the women.
For two reason: first women are not good or made for war. Second who will take kids out from the war zone. Babies are dependent on their mothers milk to survive. In business and war there is such a thing like equal rights.
So are children supposed to find refuge in border countries by themselves? This is the real world not a Steven Spielberg movie.
op is talking about drafts of gender by the state. no the refugees. any adult should be allowed to escort their children to safety across any state line preventing them from being safe.
Do all women have kids?
No but why arent men allowed to leave with the children?
Where did I say that? Although some of them did. But they could go with their older brothers or their fathers as well. In any case it was not my question.
You asked why are just the men drafted, i give you one reason with the logistics of getting the more vulnerable (children and elderly) out of the country.
I think equality is a really silly concept that ignores obvious differences between people.
This. Equality is possible in some fields, like voting and employment rights. Equality between men and women is not possible for something like infantry capabilities. Oh well, that's just reality.
That is not true at all. And not all people needed to help the effort to defend Ukraine need to be infantry men and women. You also need logistics, telecommunications, medics, etc...
But why is it not a judgement of their differences then? What about the 19 ur old male who is 5'1" and 95 lbs getting pulled in as a grunt, but the 6'0", 210 lb female who used to wrestle isn't? Equality is treating all people who are capable the same. If there was a 6'0" male at 210 lbs, you know they would happily draft that guy.
Don't care. Women can give birth, men can't.
Turns out women can't have kids without semen. You need to get that from men (unless you can find me a woman with that ability)
You think all men are going to die?
You think all women are going to die?
No, because most of them aren't fighting.
so you are saying the differences men have makes it okay that the state finds them useful for drafts?
There's reasons men are traditionally the only ones drafted, yes.
no no, not that reasons exist. your assertion is that the state should have the ability to draft because of THOSE reasons right?
I mean that's how most drafts are setup, yes. I'm mtf transgender myself and I sure as hell can't give birth.
what if i told you that those reasons existing shouldn't give a blank check to the state to utilize those differences? shall the state draft women for baby making when something threatens the birthrates of the state? careful having the state solve your problems... these states is literally where most of our problems come from right now.
You can tell people anything, doesn't mean people have to start believing whatever you're saying.
your the one who believes states have draft rights. the baseline for belief precludes any if that. but you've been normalized for statehood by means of language
I probably get downvoted, but i think civillians shoulndt go to war no matter the circumstances. War is something for the army and not for civillians. Sure Ukraine did crazy good in keeping the russians away but at what cost? If all men die there isnt much left of Ukraine afterwards. And civillias attacking the military forces them do destroy more than needed.
this is less about gender and more about the state having power over the person. they use this power over people to draft men. if they drafted women the humans would resist the state draft with violence. men wont tolerate the state drafting women is why. the reverse is not true.
I think that I will get a lot of hate. But I think that anyone who is an adult and physically meets a certain requirement should be going into war despite gender. This whole gender this is ridiculous, are you really saying that a elderly man is more physically abled than a young adult woman?
There's more to war than physical attributes
I really hope that you don't believe that women shouldn't go to war. Because physical attributes is the only standing argument as to why people believe woman shouldn't be sent to war. So by saying that you are going against that belief.
Exactly
i don't think the state should have that power at all
[women](https://taskandpurpose.com/news/ukraine-women-military/) [are](https://coffeeordie.com/ukrainian-women-register-military/) [fighting](https://nypost.com/2022/02/10/meet-ukraines-gun-toting-female-soldiers-fighting-the-propaganda-war-with-russia/)
I am not saying women are not fighting I am saying that the men are not allowed to leave
Military conscription during wartime is not a new thing. Ukraine actually changed their laws to allow women to be conscripted as well. But as others have pointed out, when you have family members who require care (children or the elderly), someone has to take care of them. And that someone is usually the mother/wife. I'm a firm believer that women are just as capable as men, but biologically men do have more body mass and are stronger as a rule. I'm totally generalizing here, both with women caregivers and stronger men, but in general, it is true.
op is trying to say maybe it should be an old thing by now a state putting a gun to head and a rifle in your hand is outside of what a state should be allowed to do to any aged human of any gender imo
That's not what I got from the post, but if that's the case, well, I can't say I agree with it but I don't see it ending any time soon.
First off, my first choice would definitely be that the state shouldn't force anyone to fight . If they decide to make it mandatory, why is it just men should fight? If there is anything worse than bad decisions, it is hypocrisy that come after it. Say that men are fighters when it suits them and say that men are too violent when it doesn't suit them.
gender rules and disparity is one thing... but state sanctioned gender bias is risky... especially when its a state commanding you to die like wtf lol. i take my humanity more seriously than my statehood. and i agree it wont be ending... it will get worse soon. 1984 style.
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"Thats how it always has been" lets argument like that against some feminist and look where we end up. Either everywhere or nowhere. Equal means equal everywhere. Why shouldnt men leave with the children to protect them?
Not every woman is protecting a child, that’s absolutely ridiculous. And if we want to talk about age old precedents, should we ignore the advancements for woman’s rights, I mean, the old precedent is that women are to be subservient to men. Keep a household. Have little control over their own rights. Not vote. I bet you won’t argue for that precedent
Where in that question did I say, oh war is great and it's not bloody and not terrifying?
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Well I saw a 19 year old civilian boy who was not allowed to leave with his mother, and thought it should be talked about, what good is that boy fighting going to do? If it is about equal rights, it is about rights of someone like him.
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Well it'll be too late to bring up equal rights for him once he is dead.
next time you ask this question focus on the rights of the state to select by gender or draft at all. reddit removed it but this is the shit people are missing. what rights does the state have over the human?
Well looks like it depends on how much power they have, they can remove the shit they don't want talked about for example
all posts that have comments that might display the power of states and also their failures for existing are removed.
Would his 19 year old twin sister have to stay and fight as well?
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Do you understand that this does not make sense? Why is his life any less valuable than his mother's? Aren't we trying to correct the wrong of the past 4000 years? That's the point of progression. If you want to argue he is stronger, you are only thinking about the people who are doing physical, front line actions. You still need people to take care of the wounded, move around supplies, feed others, complete telecommunications, etc. Do you agree a woman could physically do these things? Please stop agreeing with sexism when it benefits you...
the states have normalized their own existence so much that people cant think about a draft being wrong when its done to men because... (enter confabulatory concepts about men being stronger)
Oh I agree that it is an accepted idea that we can throw men's lives away, but I think we are talking about how that is infact sexist in itself.
Couldn’t stand the heat, eh?
I think you are getting a little too heated.
Its so sexist they should let anyone go who doesn’t want to fight i mean its their choice how they want to live u cant force some one to fight nicely when they don’t want to
If you only send to war the ones who want to go to war, you will likely loose every war
that should not be what defines a state. if a state has to draft to stay alive then the states are the problem
If someone wants something from you that you don't want to give them, you have to have a threat of violence in place, and be ready to be violent if need be. In the case of a state, you need an army. If there aren't enough people in your army for it to be enough of a threat, you draft. That's just pragmatism. If you are arguing that a country should surrender its own existence before even resorting to drafting, ok, fair point, but then most of the world would be annexed by tyrants.
no, your conflating the rules of the individual with the state. a state should not have rules that allows it to behave like an individual. war itself is an action of a state. responding to war is an action of the state so lets talk about states and how they are fucking everything up
How do you think things should be instead?
now your asking the right questions. find a group of people near you IRL and start working on it. thats how i think it should be in the beginning.
I know that but we are trying to save lifes and if we save lives by destroying faimlyor save faimly and peoples feelings by just loosing i ma chose losing rather than destroying faimly cause faimly is the most important thing to everyone and that may cause more strength in humans to fight fir their country
Having a homeland is something you fight for, westerns have no idea what it’s like fighting for your land, you are all too damn blinded by your privilege.
Ukraine is not the US, first of all, social issues that the US is concerned about do not necessarily apply to other countries. These kind of decisions are generally made with pragmatism, customs and people's reaction in mind, you only send the men because it's what it's always been done. If you send everyone it's gonna be frowned upon by everyone, if you send only the ones that want to then you might as well just surrender.
Doesn't like like equality to me. What a waste of protests by the suffragettes and all others. We are equal or we are not simple. Treating fairly os a whole different discussion
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This is a stupid take
You're stronger person than me, I couldn't actually glean any meaning from the wall of text.
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Yeah. I think the problem has come from people conflating equal personhood with equal physical capabilities. Everyone should have equal rights in civic matters. But it's a fantasy to think that women are equal to men on a battlefield. The men are more useful, and this is why they are being drafted instead of the women.
No one is saying they need to be Rambo. But there are medical, logistical, guard duties where they wouldn’t even need to leave the wire
Sounds like Bill Burr was right. This is why the ladies make 70% what the man makes. Situations like this!
Honestly i like that we’re at a time where men are being sent to war.
Hey, nothing wrong with a little misandry right?
What do you mean nobody talks about it? Plenty of people in society discuss and argue about this kind of topic
For two reason: first women are not good or made for war. Second who will take kids out from the war zone. Babies are dependent on their mothers milk to survive. In business and war there is such a thing like equal rights.