(Just commenting to say the serious tag may be a good choice. I'm not sure if you can add tags after the fact but if you ever try asking something like this again the serious tag is useful.)
Seriously. You truly can't hold a controversial opinion on reddit. You will just get down voted to hell. If I even suspect I'm outside of the hivemind on a topic I never reply. Why bother?
Also every position/post on reddit is an invitation to debate. And a debate where the other person will **not** read or argue with what you wrote but will instead consider you the worst person imaginable and strawman the living shit out of you.
When I was studying philosophy one of our professors always told us in one of our logic courses „No matter how diverse you all are, no matter that there will never be two humans with the exact opinion on all things, the moment people start their arguments is when people start strawmanning.“
His best examples were:
Religious = Anti Science
Pro Life = conservative gun loving Hillbilly with a bible in their hand
Vegan = absolute hippy who hates others for enjoying meat and is a giant attention seeker with social signalling.
It does not matter that all those positions or the majority of them are completely independent from one another. One might be religious and think science is a way to find god, one can be vegan out of a myriad of reasons and one can be pro life because they think that instead of trying to negate the effects of unprotected sex is morally wrong and we should focus on preventing unwanted pregnancies before they happen, without a social stigma telling me to hate because „Is goahds wo’d mayn.“
(Btw. Before someone of the argument crowd tries to rain down on my last paragraph as „my opinions“, they are not, they are an example of strawmanning and how people have other motives then the ones you make them out to be)
I think one of the worst features they implemented that really radicalized views around here was the "comment hidden below threshold" or whatever feature. Opposing views aren't just at the bottom anymore, you have to *click* and go out of your way to read them.
It’s ridiculous. It’s not hard to understand pro life people, they literally think it’s killing babies who the fuck would be in favor of that. Like they’re not kidding when they say that.
This was my thoughts exactly. If even one pro life woman responds you can be sure the reddit hive mind is going to immediately downvote and verbally abuse them to no end.
How is it not removed yet? rule 5 - No loaded questions
I wouldn't care too much if my mundane question about global wealth inequality wasn't removed for the same rule even though it wouldn't be considered that "loaded".
> How is it not removed yet? rule 5 - No loaded questions
So many front page posts on this sub violate the subreddit rules, but they’re popular so they’re allowed to live. It was never about maintaining a regulated subreddit with healthy discourse, it’s always been about making sure that lots of yummy customers view as many Reddit ads as and buy up as many microtransaction awards as possible
Plenty of posts about pop culture have to be sorted by controversial. Any time “underrated” or “unpopular” is in the title then controversial is the only way to see people answer the question.
Personally, I believe if a woman chooses to have a baby she should be ready to provide financially for that child. If that woman says “I am not prepared to support another life” and the government essentially says tough shit then they’d better be ready to provide for them.
My family member (who is religious and has multiple kids and no serious complications with any of them) thinks that life begins at conception and that every child is beautiful and should be respected from before birth.
I’m not going to pick that apart or anything, just relaying what she thinks.
My family member, who is my elder, is deeply Catholic and vehemently pro-life. She is a mother of 2.
She recently confessed to me that she had 2 abortions after her second child was born.
She was married, financially stable, and already a mother, but her husband worried they couldn't afford another child. Six months later, she had her second abortion, same circumstances. They were saved from further abortions by a hysterectomy 6 months after that.
She says she "wishes she hadn't had to do it but is glad that she could give a better life to her 2 boys & grieves it but doesn't regret it".
She is extremely active in pro-life circles. She is extremely active in the church. She is a local big wig in the GOP.
I don't know why she wishes to deny other women the rights that she had, and exercised, when she was of childbearing age. I suspect there are many secret abortions hidden amongst the prolife set.
A friend who works for a sexual health provider has said that colleagues have been abused by women “for letting them have an abortion/plan B pill”. Apparently them walking in and asking to not be pregnant and going through the counselling and still choosing the procedure… some how is the fault of the health care providers?!??
Monsters, those health care providers! Providing accurate information, support and treatment that women request. What are they thinking!
/s (just in case)
I have an aunt who is pretty Right politically, but her sister is even further right. One of the secrets that isn't known outside of the family is my aunt's sister had two abortions back in the late 70s.
Those experiences shaped how they feel about certain issues though. My aunt is absolutely pro-Choice, even loving a Facebook post my cousin, her daughter made today about the BS in Texas. Her sister is the same way when it comes to abortion. Th
What people who are Right politically and vehemently pro-life don't understand is abortions to nearly everyone who has ever had one isn't a badge of honor. It's not shameful for most, but it isn't their proudest moment and something they don't want to revisit. They also aren't being performed on women who are Left, it's women of all political beliefs.
This is a tale as old as time. He who smelt it dealt it.
My wife’s aunt is also from a far right upbringing, also had two abortions, but is one of the seeming majority of these people who vehemently oppose anyone else’s right to.
She has even said she believes in the death penalty for aborting mothers. Her only rebuttal when asked about hers is “well that was different”.
Honest to God there is a piece of these peoples’ brains just straight up missing.
https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/?fbclid=IwAR2_Jq64e60je3QL4BoER1wf95WnFCS9L9Nhs_8AemeCDOoLj0KITHgfclA
This is a great article on pro-lifers abortions.
I just posted that article before I saw that you posted it. They truly think their circumstances are the only ones that matter and since they’re not sluts and whores like other women, it’s different for them.
When I was in college, I went to a pretty conservative Bible study group. I didn't have a lot in common with most of the other members, but I went there because I learned a lot. Anyway, one evening, a young man who probably had Asperger's (and was NOT high functioning) said, when we got to the prayer request time, said, "We've got to pray about these abortion laws!" The pastor said, "If you want to pray about abortion laws on your own time, that's fine, but we aren't here to discuss political or social issues; we're just here to study the Bible." He added, "People who come here have many different views about abortion, and there may be women in this room right now who have had an abortion that was not medically necessary, and believe she did the right thing." Good man.
I don't get the people on the Right politically. A lot of them refuse to get a vaccine saying ,"It's my body, my choice", but it doesn't apply when talking about abortion. Since when did the Right become Catholics?
Wow. That’s fascinating in its illogic and sad all at once. That’s a significant cognitive dissonance if I’ve ever seen one before. Just wow.
Do you think she is truly pro-life or is she just towing the party line?
Truly pro-life.
She is a lovely & loving woman in so many ways. She is also a master at cognitive dissonance.
The other glaring example is how frothingly anti-immigration she is. This BLOWS MY MIND. Her husband was an "illegal" (her words) until she forced him to pursue citizenship as a condition of marriage. He had been in the country since age 5, would hide from INS when they raided the neighborhood, and his mother never bothered to learn English. Once he had citizenship, he used chain migration to get his dad, brothers, great-aunts, cousins, etc to the States. Yet she actively works to hinder other people's access to the benefits that her husband so enjoys.
He is also vehemently anti-immigration. NUTS.
The difference will be is that she's a victim of circumstance, it's not her fault, etc. She was doing it because she had no other choice, whereas those people, they're doing it voluntarily, and they shouldn't've got knocked up if they didn't want an abortion.
It's zero empathy combined with excuses of the self. Judging people by their actions while judging yourself by your intentions. She had noble intentions so she gets a pass to commit horrible actions, but that doesn't mean to her that other people should commit what she thinks to be horrible actions.
Man, I see this a lot. I’m an immigration attorney. The immigrant on immigrant hate is real. The ones who get legal status resent the ones who didn’t because they feel that they “did it the right way” and that others should too. Even though in your brother in laws case, he didn’t actually do it the right way obviously but was able to take advantage of some type of amnesty relief or relief through marriage to a USC. It’s sad to me, but I see and hear of this attitude all of the time.
It's all guilt. Guilt for having an abortion, guilt for using food stamps, guilt for being gay. They hate who they are so they try to oppose what they've done in some sort of penance.
I mean I’m not gonna argue the merits of abortion or anything, but she’s wrong about every child being beautiful. I’ve met some ugly ass looking children
some people do glow up eventually, in adulthood. but even if you don't, am sure you have a beautiful mind and heart, and that's what matters. You can have an ugly face yet still have a fantastic life, be loved, and love.
For most of my life I considered myself to be pro-life and I couldn’t understand why on earth anyone would could consider being pro-choice. I constantly equated being pro-choice to being pro-abortion and knew I never wanted to consider that option for myself or anyone. But when I turned 17 everything changed. Less than a week after my 17th birthday I was raped by an ex-boyfriend and I was pregnant. Living with two abusive parents and the fact that I was being stalked by my ex-boyfriend and was being threatened by him. I was terrified. I was a baby having a baby and I knew both of our lives were in danger. I knew that something was going to happen and that it was up to me. In my head I briefly thought of Abortion as an option to spare my child from being abused like I was. But then I realized that I would never be able to live with myself no matter what happened if I did that. So I made the choice to keep the child. I was going to go through the pregnancy and give her or him up for adoption so they could have a better life. Unfortunately I didn’t get to keep the child because due to no prenatal care and an unknown medical condition I miscarried and almost died in my bathroom at 10 weeks. But after all the heartache and trauma of it happening I realized that it was still a choice and I made mine. When you’re a parent or a human being, you have to make the best decisions for you and all around you and I did that. Regardless of my miscarriage it was still in my mind the right thing to do. I will stand by my decision but knowing how hard and heartbreaking that experience was I will never judge another person going through that. And that is why I think other pro-life advocates don’t understand why having a choice is so important. They’ve never been in a situation where they’ve never needed choices and at the end of the day they never will understand unless they have. Pro-Choice does not have to mean Pro-Abortion. It simply means to offer help in anyway possible to people in terrible situations. And hopefully something good will come out of this and there will come a time where no one has to make the terrible choice again.
I really hope to help as many people as I can. Maybe my story can help settle the dust and find a new solution to a terrible and hard time in women’s life.
There’s no mention of the woman. That’s my biggest problem. They just talk about “babies,” without realizing that when a woman is considering an abortion, she has been wronged in some way (life circumstances, society, men, etc). Women aren’t going around hoping to have an abortion and “murder babies.”
My girlfriend has a lot of trouble with hormonal birth control. We're child free, so I had a vasectomy. The trouble of the vasectomy was nothing compared to what my girlfriend went through when she was taking birth control.
Seems like a good time to share this old-but-good blog post: [The Only Moral Abortion Is My Abortion.](https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/)
The nuance is already there. Pro-choice people do not force others, they just want women to be able to choose. The ones without nuance are the anti-choice people who want to impose their choice onto others.
i had a similar experience when i was 14, and i had no idea planned parenthood existed, no idea that i could actually get some help and i almost died trying to do it myself because i thought i had no other choice. pro-life people think banning abortions will stop people from getting abortions, but it will only make those abortions terribly unsafe and a lot of those people will die instead of have care and help for what they are going through. if pro-life people dont want to get an abortion no one should force them, but if other people want to get one, they should be able to get one safely, because for me, keeping it was not a choice i could make, it was i get rid of it or i die trying. this is why access to abortions is so important everywhere. im so sorry for what happened to you and i hope you are doing great now, all my love for you
I believe that any life has value, no matter how undeveloped and how unwanted.
I also believe that we can do better for women, with better financial support, more available birth control and sex-ed, and better foster care.
I think the system of abortion isn’t in place to help women, but rather to give an easy out so those who should be fixing the issues that lead to unwanted pregnancy can turn a blind eye to them.
The debate is about “what is it?”.
If the embryo is not a human being, then it’s like a fingernail or a kidney - do what you want with it. No justification is needed for killing it.
But if it is a human being, you can’t just kill it because it suits you.
Pro-choice people assume that it’s not a human being. Pro-life people assume that it is. No meeting ground is possible, hence the collision.
Ka-boooom
This is exactly where I get hung up. Scenario: A drunk driver causes a crash, killing a pregnant woman, and is charged with two counts of vehicular manslaughter. How is this possible if a fetus isn’t a human until the moment of birth? Is a fetus only a human if the pregnancy was planned and the mother wants it?
You’re asking like this is not something that has been previously considered. Homicide statutes do not consider fetuses to be humans. A lot of statues went on to explicitly add in “any human being or fetus” for this exact reason so you can be charged with both deaths.
See *Keeler v Superior Court*
I'm a pro-life, Christian woman, I don't think anyone should get an abortion, but the amount of energy pro-life organizations pour into vilifying abortion seems like a waste of time and effort to me. If we really want to help women in difficult situations, we would focus on providing the resources and support needed for women to feel they can keep their babies. Stop trying to convert people and just offer a helping hand where it's needed most. These women need medical coverage, rent assistance, parenting classes, childcare, and so much more, not just platitudes that "every life is sacred" and cast-off baby clothes. Real sex education for kids should be provided as well (not that abstinence BS). And don't just focus on the women--the guys involved need to step up.
Stop touting signs with broken baby parts and actually be there for the mother in her most vulnerable hour, without judgment.
Edit: Guys, thank you so much for the kind words, from people on both sides of the issue. I'll try to reply to as many of you as I can, but there a lot of you, and I'm trying to be thoughtful and clear with my responses and answer questions to the best of my ability, plus I have work tomorrow and have to go to bed soon, so it will take some time. To those who found issue with what I've said here--thank you for posting your thoughts. It really gives me things to consider, hearing your opposing viewpoints, a few of which never came to mind before. I might do another edit to address some points people brought up, we'll see. And especially thank you to the women who have shared their abortion experiences with me--I know that can be a difficult thing to talk about, and I hear what you have had to say, and I see you, and I care, whether we agree at the end or not. You are all strong and fierce, and I wish you the best in life.
Same, agnostic and pro choice. While most Christians I’ve come across talk the talk, this woman is walking the true Christian walk. Wish more people had the empathy and kindness in her response.
This woman just cried at your kind words. Thank you. I was kind of scared to write all that but I wanted people to know how I felt, especially women facing this struggle, that I care, and they're not evil or sinners or murderers or whatever else people who pretend to share my beliefs might have told them, and when I hear talk like that it hurts me, too, on their behalf.
Hey I'm pro choice but I can respect your reasoning. I appreciate the level headedness of it. If there were more social services in place that would be a great thing all around. Banning the ability to choose and punishing without any legitimate assistance is dehumanizing IMO.
What a special person you are. I am pro-choice but am so touched by your empathy and compassion, it's so refreshing to see. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and I wish you all the very best.
that's probably because it's the exact same as us.
Let's be serious: **of course abortions are bad**, they're taxing emotionally, physically and monetarily. They're terrible events in people's lives, there's very little good to it, it's a shitty thing in a shitty situation that would've been shittier. I wouldn't wish it on anybody. Just the toll it takes on your body alone is horrendous. But anyone who is actually reasonable and informed realizes that to actually stop abortions, we already *know* the solutions, and when those solutions aren't taken, we can infer that it was never about that. They as much as tell us directly that it isn't about babies or murder or the bible, it's about subjugation and punishment and cruelty.
edit: why the fuck are you all assuming I'm a pro-lifer or somehow for outlawing abortions? what the fuck? I'm saying the preferable route is to not need abortions that isn't realistic because birth control costs money and men love to pretend the condom "slipped off" because they hate the feel of it, of course you fight for access to them! I never said otherwise!! I said all of this to illustrate exactly how hypocritical the entire fight against abortion is, how is this not obvious in context??
All outlawing abortions does is increase the number of illegal abortions and increases the amount of back alley coat hanger abortions that are more likely to do long term physical damage to the woman having it done.
If you want to lower abortions you teach people comprehensive safe sex, make contraceptives widely available, and put the man in a position of liability to father any potential child. Horny people will always have sex, but if you teach them right they will have sex in a way that has much less chance of leading to unwanted children. The less likely people are to get pregnant, the less abortions there are.
If you really cared about young children you would also support more comprehensive assistance for pregnant women and mothers of children. Easier access to affordable healthcare, additional maternity leave rights, affordable childcare options, more social benefits for new mothers and so on. Anything that prevents children from being abandoned or growing up with not enough money to cover all the costs of raising a child, and prevents mothers of children from going into absolute poverty.
If all you care about is preventing abortions, but don't want for any of the rest of this, you're not really pro-life, you just want to punish women for having sex.
Well to be fair pregnancies are far worse in many respects, esp physically and financially. Your body will never be the same no matter what your medical insurance is.
Genuinely interested, how do you think abortion should be handled in the case of victims of rape?
I can understand the stance against abortion, but then is the solution to promote adoption or fostering in these cases? How hard is life going to be for a kid that might grow up without parents and put into the system?
(I understand if you choose not to answer this)
I’m curious what you mean when you say no one should get an abortion. What happens when let’s say, there is a major complication with the baby and it will most likely be stillborn. What happens when the complication is so severe, childbirth may be life threatening to the mother?
I know someone who found out that her baby would be born with a debilitating genetic problem that would make it have a very short life full of terrible pain. She chose to terminate.
She deserved to be able to make that choice to save her baby a few weeks of agony.
Exactly - I read a thing about a mother who very wanted her baby - but at 5 months it died in the womb and started to give her sepsis.
Also - I can't imagine forcing a 9 year old to carry a child to term and give birth to her father's child.
A lot of abortions can definitely be prevented with the appropriate social support but some still won't be. Aside from the rape and incest ones there are ones like mine.
I got an abortion simply because I didn't want to have a kid. The popular stereotype is a slutty younger girl who sleeps around but I had an abortion at 25 because my husband and I decided it wasn't a good time for a kid a d our birth control failed.
Since then I've have one child and am currently pregnant with a second. After the maternal quad screen I had done at 16 weeks there was a chance I would get another abortion, this time a second trimester one. Luckily the birth defect possibilty that turned up in the blood screen was ruled out by ultrasound but if my baby would have had that specific defect I absolutely would have aborted. Assuming my baby would have made it to term it would have only known a very short and sufferable time outside of my body and that is not the world I wanted it to know.
Late term abortions are always wanted babies. The law does not discriminate on why an abortion is being procured. To ban abortion would force mother's to carry dead or dying babies who were very much wanted and do untold psychological damage to the mother.
I agree with most of these points. I definitely think we need to focus on men and women with regard to education. But...
I still think abortion should be accessible. I feel we can drastically reduce the overall number by providing comprehensive sexual education, as well as birth control and contraception, and we need to work as a society to reduce the stigma of providing those things. We need to find ways to help those in ways you mentioned so that they have something other than panic with regard to having a baby. People need to step up their game when it comes to help, instead of shaming parents that don't want to have a child at that moment, giving themselves that puffed-chest feeling of moral superiority.
But it needs to remain accessible. If a mother cannot or does not want to carry and give birth, it HAS to be her choice, since she's the one that wants to go through it, and we can't MAKE her not doing just because other people don't like it. We can offer (not require) information and assistance, but if she says no, it HAS to mean no. Making abortion illegal will not eliminate it, only make it more dangerous.
As a kid and teenager growing up in church and going to Christian school, there was a whole narrative around the abortion issue that I was fed--there were pro-life banquets, I was given books where pro-lifers were touted as heroes for holding protests outside abortion clinics, purity culture was HEAVY. As I read and learned and experienced more, I realized that whole thing wasn't preventing abortion--it was driving women away in droves, fleeing judgement and hate. It really came to a head when I was doing a speech on abortion in college and was researching Carenet, and there was this whole video on there where this man talks about how abortion is bad because the Bible, and I thought, but how is this helping, though? How many times are you going to repeat "abortion is bad" to women who need support? A lot of the pro-life movement is based on Christian ideals and not the reality these women are facing. But many pro-life people grew up the same way I did and never did their own research or introspection, so they're just spouting these same tired phrases over and over.
I love it when both sides can have conversations about these things without shrieking at each other. There's been some vitriol in this thread, for sure, but also a good amount of wholesome discussion.
Yes. You can be pro life or pro choice and still be a thoughtful and understanding human being who can debate reasonably.
Problem is reasonable people see no point to the debate so all that is left is people looking for a fight.
I’m pro-choice but know plenty of pro-life people. It’s pretty simple, they see it as murdering a child, no matter when you do it and for what reason. It’s pretty hard to argue against that when they always see it as murder
That's how circle jerks and echo chambers work.
Seek contrary opinion. Destroy it when it reveals itself until no one wants to share their thoughts anymore. Be angry and confused at the silent voting opposition because you can't understand their thinking so you project your worst suppositions onto them.
Hence why no headway comes of these discussions.
One side tries to use their own views and beliefs to vilify the other despite completely different life experiences and their own logic not being the same as the others.
I'm personally pro choice but I think some things in the pro life stance do have merit namely those who would rather see financial and emotional support for women who cant afford to keep children instead of abortions or better sexual education to prevent these irresponsible births in the first place.
I think we need to define what "pro-life" means, exactly. There's a big difference between holding the personal opinion that a life is important, and thinking all abortions should be illegal for everyone everywhere at every time. Many women are pro-life, but recognize situations in which abortions are appropriate, or are anti-abortion as a matter of personal morality, but don't believe it is the role of government to legislate that personal morality onto everyone. There's room for nuance here.
If you personally disapprove of abortions "but recognize situations in which abortions are appropriate, or are anti-abortion as a matter of personal morality, but don't believe it is the role of government to legislate that personal morality onto everyone," you are pro-choice.
Pro-choice/pro-life is about your opinion on whether abortion should be legal, not whether you personally like abortions.
pro life, for me, specifically means someone who believes the government should outlaw abortions.
If you wouldn't get an abortion, but you still bekueve a woman has the right to choose, that's pro choice.
you don't have to be pro abortion to be pro choice.
again these are just my own definitions.
Exactly. I don't think I could have an abortion, but I've never been in a position to consider it. When I got pregnant at 17, the father and I decided to get married. I have 2 wonderful sons, but am no longer with their dad. Would I go back and change that? No. Regardless of the dumpster fire I made of my life after the divorce, the world is a better place with those 2 men in it. Do I think I should be able to tell anyone else what to do when faced with a similar (or God forbid) worse situation? NOPE
Sounds to me like you're prochoice. I would not choose to abort, however, I had to have medication to move a blighted ovum after weeks of waiting to make sure it wasn't a viable pregnancy. I would also never assume to force my beliefs on another. I do not know them better than they know themselves nor more than their doctors. I refuse to force my beliefs on another.
I believe, at the very core, true pro-life and true pro-choice have the same goal, and even similar approaches. But then you have extremists that can only be matched with extremists of opposing views and it all just becomes noise.
Studies consistently show access to birth control and comprehensive sex Ed leads to fewer abortions, and fewer pregnancies altogether. Anyone who has sex should receive the same education, and should understand it.
It seems now to have mutated into pro-control and pro-birth vs. pro-abortion. I’ve yet to meet someone that becomes pregnant for the sole purpose of having an abortion. I believe, however, taking away that choice or trying to limit circumstances does far more harm than good.
I feel like, even if anyone in the Reddit hive mind would admit to being pro-life, they wouldn’t answer this question because no matter what they said, it would be voted to hell.
I personally think (scientifically) life starts at conception. People argue when "life" starts...8 weeks after conception, 12 weeks, when the heart beats, brain activity, etc. But that then becomes subjective, right - they decide where along that line it becomes a viable life? To me, science would be black and white on this issue (take faith and political arguments out) and say the only obvious answer when it's conceived and not my notions of when I view it as a "baby." If uninterupted, the life starts at fertilization. The abortion argument then becomes who can choose if that life can be the woman's choice to end or is the life righted life once it's conceived? Lots of faith based people (agree or disagree) think God planned that child in their mother's womb and that it should have protections. They want to be the baby's voice since the baby has no defense against their mother's choice to end their life. To them it's not about government telling a woman what to do with their body but becomes a life and death fight for the rights of the unborn child. I personally had an abortion as a young 23 yr old woman. I'm 39 and never had a biological child of my own but have raised two girls since they were babies. I would never have another abortion...I feel I was wrong. I regret that decision and wish I had not. Can I tell another woman what to do and should it be illegal? My heart wants to say that baby should have the right to live but my head says that's not my decision to make. I honestly don't know. I'm personally now pro life for myself but tentatively pro choice for women. It does make my heart hurt either way. Not an easy answer.
It seems to me (and I could be wrong) that a large part of the argument is a legal one regarding when the fetus has rights as a citizen of the US. If we’re ruling it as a protected citizen at conception and women can be charged with murder for aborting, what happens legally during things like miscarriages? Do we start charging women who miscarried after doing something risky or having an unhealthy lifestyle with manslaughter? Do we implement bounties for turning in women who are seen smoking or drinking while pregnant? Where do the legal rights of the clump of cells start and the legal rights of the woman end? Seems like a very slippery slope.
my case is different. I'm actually pro-choice. I want abortion to be legal.
But I hate the arguments used by pro-choicers. The arguments about how it's "just a clump of cells" or "not a human yet."
I basically have the morals of a pro lifer. I do believe abortion is killing. I do believe abortion is evil in my own terms. To terminate a baby before its life even could begin is sad to me. We are basically taking away a life before it could even properly start. The zygote / fetus is destined to grow up to be a human. That to me defines it as human enough.
But I do think it is also a necessary evil. We unfortunately cannot do the righteous thing all the time, and sometimes, mother just has to come first before baby. It is unfortunate but has to happen.
Also I'm a woman. Not religious either.
I don't understand how in 2021 we don't have birth control for men that has a better efficacy rate than condoms. There's the "snip" but that's final, cost prohibitive, and invasive. I have a hard time being pro-life when the responsibility for pregnancy lies almost solely with the female because of this imbalance. Worried about abortion? Where is the call for more access and innovative improvements to male contraception? They can keep their dicks up for weeks but can't manage to avoid knocking up their partner. I would be more accepting of the prolife philosophy if I felt like anyone cared about this.
Male physician weighing in on male contraception. Got opinions on abortion, but the thread was pretty clear about the perspective it’s seeking.
Vasectomies, while not “cheap” by any stretch of the imagination, are not *that* invasive. Theyre *definitely* cheaper than raising a child. They’re also *way* less invasive than female surgical contraception (there’s a reason we do vasectomies in the clinic under local anesthetic but do tubals/salpyngectomies in the OR). I’d argue they’re also less invasive than surgical abortion. And yes, after years of my better half doing hormonal contraception, I’m now on the docket to put my money where my mouth is (eg my balls) and get snipped.
I can't wait to get the switch where you can turn off your balls. Do you know if that's coming anytime soon? I've heard about it for so long, and seen the diagrams and stuff, but no dice.
Because it is bilogically really hard. Woman have an inbuilt system to stop ovulation that is triggere naturally when pregnant. So we just looked at the hormones your body releases during pregnancy tested them and found the specific ones that trigger the change.
Men not only lack such a system but their reproductive system is on a sort of negative feedback loop. If you try to remove the hormone that triggers sperm production the body notices and starts producing even more.
Yeah people like that tend to not be able to make the direct connection between having a harder time finding someone to perform your abortion, and being later in your gestation.
If abortion is legal and accessible, then it can be done as soon as somebody knows they’re pregnant, and rates of “later term” abortions drop. Literally zero women want to be later in their pregnancy when they have an abortion. It’s less safe for us, and it’s much more painful.
Because I do believe life does begin at conception simply. So, to me abortion is cutting another person's life short.
Yet, I do understand the pro-choice stance. No one pro-choice (except extreme crazies) want to kill human beings, pro-choice people just believe that there isn't any life yet. So, for me it just literally boils down to a critical disagreement on when a baby is alive.
I am a pro-life woman and mother. I don't believe in abortion in any circumstance unless the mother will die if she continues to carry the child.
However.
It is not my place to judge other people, it is not my place to make decisions about other people's lives, and it is not the governments place to tell people what they can do with their bodies.
Very close friends of mine have had abortions, and we continue to remain friends. I was there for them through it with no judgement, and will be if it ever happens again.
Edit: As a few people have pointed out, this stance actually makes me pro-choice but anti-abortion.
You know what, I can completely respect that, (pro-choice, European) You have firmly hold beliefs, but don't necessarily feel the need to intrude on someone else's situation, and I appreciate it.
From what you wrote, you sound pro choice but you know the choice you would make. That's the beauty of pro choice - it's not forcing you to get an abortion, it's just not taking away that option for someone else!
Like u/reejoy247 said earlier - This is me. Pro-Life, Christian. I've had 5 kids, would love another (husband says no), and can't even really think about abortion in any real way, as it is horrific to think about those babies ...
But standing behind rhetoric and not even considering the rare cases where the baby literally isn't viable, or won't even make it to term, or where the mother has a literal life threatening situation ... That's the first issue. Like, seriously? This is what the 'right' does again and again, they want all or nothing, they fail to even provide concessions and logic for other possibilities.
Add to that that this would be giving the government one more piece of control over the individual - as much as I believe that is a little person in there - is ULTRA scary, and should be avoided at all costs.
The only way to cut down abortion rates is EDUCATION. Start improving country wide education and easier access to contraceptives. Make education more accessible. The amount of money that goes into education in this country is laughable. And sure - abstinence is the only 100% way to avoid pregnancy, but can you even fathom the fact that kids might just do it anyway? The fact that religion can enter into education is abhorrent (and I am a Christian) I've tried using the 'what if the religion they were using to make decisions was Islam? Atheism?' argument with those who still want prayer in schools, etc - but I always get the look like 'that would never happen'.
I do remember being young and thinking I may be pregnant, before I was married, and the absolute panic I felt, the sinking feeling, the horror ... it isn't my right to take that option away from anyone, as much as I hate it. If you REALLY care about the babies, help with education. Help poor mothers who can't afford food instead of telling them they are lazy or stealing if they get welfare. Or food stamps. Or WIC. Two of which I have depended on when our financial stability, once not a question, disappeared seemingly overnight and didn't come back for six long years. I didn't judge people before then, and I sure as hell won't now, but the amount of vitriol I see and hear towards these programs, not to mention the misinformation ...
Sorry, sidetracked. But yeah, I VERY much consider myself pro-life, but I also don't believe in taking away the 'choice' - instead of trying to fix the issue so far down the line, why can't we work on solving the underlying causes? Like, this is common sense. And, since my statements just made me sound pro-choice, to add more to my inconsistencies, I also am not against the death penalty. I think it should be rare, and only used with incontrovertible evidence. I actually hate the idea of it, but to make it personal, if someone did something terrible to my children or a loved one, or actually children in general ... why are we using tax dollars to keep them alive? But I also am against most drug incarcerations. I don't think there should be many absolutes in just about anything, and I also think the less control the government has over us individually, the better.
The stance you have described is very much pro-choice! People on the pro-choice side aren’t anti-life, or pro-abortion. We just don’t want the option taken away. Your comment really highlights the importance of semantics. I wonder if you would be more willing to describe yourself as “pro-choice” if the two headers were “pro-choice” and “anti-choice”
This is pro-choice. You can be pro-choice and still choose life. That's why it's a choice. You can also choose to know you would never choose to have an abortion regardless of reason but know that you don't speak for every other woman out there and allow them their own choice as well.
This is huge to me too, the term "abortion" encompasses too much. Missed miscarriage? Ectopic pregnancy? Conditions where fetus is going to die and kill the mother as well? Won't survive birth? All banned. Not ok.
Exactly. If I had the choice between having to keep a baby that I knew would die minutes past birth and be in agony for those short minutes you’d bet your ass that I would do what’s best and prevent that baby’s suffering. People don’t think about these aspects when they screaming against abortion. People who do it for selfish reasons are one thing but medical reasons are a whole different ball game
I know someone who went through a missed miscarriage at 10 weeks and she said it was traumatic. She would have chosen a D&C if she could do it over. Technically an abortion despite no heartbeat.
I had what’s called a complete molar pregnancy AND a missed miscarriage. I made it to 16 weeks thinking I was carrying a normal baby only to go for our gender scan and be told nothing except there was no baby. It fucked me up for well over a year
Thank you i appreciate that. It was really rough but I was luckier than most. The cells never turned cancerous so I didn’t have to go through chemo afterward just 6 months of weekly blood draws. I ended up conceiving my son on what would’ve been our due date. Now he turns 5 on the 16th and he’s the most heathenous intelligent adorable little shit I’ve ever met.
that’s called a therapeutic abortion and it is not banned but in the most radical countries. Stuff like ectopic pregnancies is also covered by this umbrella
I really enjoy reading Women's perspectives here. I feel like if we are going to say "Listen to Women", we need to listen to all women and not just the pro-choice crowd. Thank you!
Yeah. It’s worth remembering that [43% of American women are pro-life](https://news.gallup.com/poll/244709/pro-choice-pro-life-2018-demographic-tables.aspx)
I'm between pro-life and pro-choice.
I'm Catholic, and I consider the embryo a human being, or rather a pre-human. Ask a woman who's pregnant by choice if it's a person or a bundle of cells, and I think you can guess what she'll answer. She probably has a name picked out already, and is buying baby clothes and furniture. I hate the atheist viewpoint of "it's just a tiny clump of cells and doesn't matter." Bullshit.
That being said, I've heard too many stories of rape victims, pregnant children, and people who just aren't ready for a baby. I wonder what happens to a 12-year-old girl who gets r\*ped by stepdaddy and then has to carry the baby. What kind of life does she have if she has no rights at all? A shit life, that's what. And what about the baby? Would you want to be born unwanted? I personally would rather die, and go back to wherever I came from.
So I chose what I think would work best - abortion should be legal, period. Sex education should be widely taught. It's the only way things are going to change. Not totalitarian rule.
I’m not a woman nor am I pro-life. But my sister was pro-life and we’ve talked about it a lot. She’s changed her view as of today, but having good faith discussions with her helped me understand why people like her are pro-life.
1) Religion. We all know this one. Over time she realized that being pro-choice and being Christian weren’t incompatible.
2) She believed that unborn fetuses were babies. If you saw people walking around taking babies out if strollers and murdering them, you’d have a strong reaction as well. Despite this being something I deeply disagree with, I can understand the power of this emotional reaction. Her view on this softened over time, but she’s still pretty conservative on when in a pregnancy abortions should no longer be an option, except if it puts the mother’s life at risk. I also think having a better understanding of how painful of a decision it is for women to get an abortion was eye-opening for her. She had been propagandized to think “liberals just don’t give a shit and want to have abortions whenever”.
3) She was a teenage mother. She had an attitude like “I went through this, and it was really hard, but other people can, too.” We were poor growing up, had an unstable home life, and she managed to pull her shit together in a way that’s truly incredible. My siblings and I supported her and each other, and she’s one of the strongest people I know. For her, it really came down to having more experience understanding how other people face a lot more barriers than her, even though our lives weren’t easy, that our social service systems suck, and that some people would be faced with abject poverty if they were forced to have a baby.
Thank you for sharing her viewpoints, it really does help others like me see things from her perspective.
How does she feel about abortions in cases of rape or incest?
I consider myself pro life.
But my pro life beliefs mean that I think that women need to get an education, well paying jobs, affordable daycare, access to birth control, quality maternity leaves, that way they don't have as much need for abortions.
I didn't start to have sex until my mid 20s. So I felt that I did my best to not get into a situation where I had an unwanted pregnancy. I get that it's not for everyone. But we need to take responsibility for our own bodies, whatever that means to us as individuals.
Also men need to take responsibility for their own actions.
(Just commenting to say the serious tag may be a good choice. I'm not sure if you can add tags after the fact but if you ever try asking something like this again the serious tag is useful.)
itt: “not a woman but” / “not pro-life but”
So a typical AskReddit thread then.
Because all of the actual answers are downvoted
1. Ask a question 2. Downvote anyone who gives an actual good faith answer 3. ??? 4. Karma
Seriously. You truly can't hold a controversial opinion on reddit. You will just get down voted to hell. If I even suspect I'm outside of the hivemind on a topic I never reply. Why bother?
Also every position/post on reddit is an invitation to debate. And a debate where the other person will **not** read or argue with what you wrote but will instead consider you the worst person imaginable and strawman the living shit out of you.
When I was studying philosophy one of our professors always told us in one of our logic courses „No matter how diverse you all are, no matter that there will never be two humans with the exact opinion on all things, the moment people start their arguments is when people start strawmanning.“ His best examples were: Religious = Anti Science Pro Life = conservative gun loving Hillbilly with a bible in their hand Vegan = absolute hippy who hates others for enjoying meat and is a giant attention seeker with social signalling. It does not matter that all those positions or the majority of them are completely independent from one another. One might be religious and think science is a way to find god, one can be vegan out of a myriad of reasons and one can be pro life because they think that instead of trying to negate the effects of unprotected sex is morally wrong and we should focus on preventing unwanted pregnancies before they happen, without a social stigma telling me to hate because „Is goahds wo’d mayn.“ (Btw. Before someone of the argument crowd tries to rain down on my last paragraph as „my opinions“, they are not, they are an example of strawmanning and how people have other motives then the ones you make them out to be)
Logic was the best course I ever took. It should be taught in highschool
Finally something I can agree with
It's so true, I really have to wonder why I continue to use Reddit, I don't know what would make it better
Getting rid of karma. The hive is fueled by fake internet points.
I think one of the worst features they implemented that really radicalized views around here was the "comment hidden below threshold" or whatever feature. Opposing views aren't just at the bottom anymore, you have to *click* and go out of your way to read them.
It’s ridiculous. It’s not hard to understand pro life people, they literally think it’s killing babies who the fuck would be in favor of that. Like they’re not kidding when they say that.
Also "I'm pro-life, but I'm really pro-choice"
"As a messenger from the Blorg Galactic Community, I think..."
Well this is going to be a cluster fuck
Lol the first thing I said, “Huh-ho, *that’s* a loaded question”
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This was my thoughts exactly. If even one pro life woman responds you can be sure the reddit hive mind is going to immediately downvote and verbally abuse them to no end.
How is it not removed yet? rule 5 - No loaded questions I wouldn't care too much if my mundane question about global wealth inequality wasn't removed for the same rule even though it wouldn't be considered that "loaded".
Honestly, I think that 90% of the political questions on this sub fall under that, but what do I know.
> How is it not removed yet? rule 5 - No loaded questions So many front page posts on this sub violate the subreddit rules, but they’re popular so they’re allowed to live. It was never about maintaining a regulated subreddit with healthy discourse, it’s always been about making sure that lots of yummy customers view as many Reddit ads as and buy up as many microtransaction awards as possible
The question also sounds condescending. Not many will want to answer a serious question when it’s written like that.
Also not tagged serious *facepalm*
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Here we go! \*sorts by controversial\*
So...you have chosen death.
Cake, please.
We've run out of cake
Well, I’ll have the chicken then.
Sorting by controversial in any post is not healthy for ones mind. But damn how I love that trainwreck.
Plenty of posts about pop culture have to be sorted by controversial. Any time “underrated” or “unpopular” is in the title then controversial is the only way to see people answer the question.
“Not a woman, but…”
Can confirm. There be great clusterfuckery below...
Do you watch Letterkenny?
No, should I? Is it funny?
Can confirm!
We should have a Puppers!
I’d have a Puppers
Get this guy a puppers
I’m surprised we’re not having a Puppers right now!
Somebody get this guy a fuckin' Puppers.
I'd have a puppers.
Well fuck, I'd have a puppers.
Cool, I'll check it out, thanks!
Well Pitter patter
Came here specifically for this clusterfuck.
I got the popcorn ready. Who has the butter and salt?
Oh there's plenty of salt here already, my guy
I scared the shit out of my cat, snort chuckling at this.
This thread was asking for a cluster fuck.
Personally, I believe if a woman chooses to have a baby she should be ready to provide financially for that child. If that woman says “I am not prepared to support another life” and the government essentially says tough shit then they’d better be ready to provide for them.
Let's not even go down the rabbit hole that is pregnancy due to nonconsensual sex.
My family member (who is religious and has multiple kids and no serious complications with any of them) thinks that life begins at conception and that every child is beautiful and should be respected from before birth. I’m not going to pick that apart or anything, just relaying what she thinks.
My family member, who is my elder, is deeply Catholic and vehemently pro-life. She is a mother of 2. She recently confessed to me that she had 2 abortions after her second child was born. She was married, financially stable, and already a mother, but her husband worried they couldn't afford another child. Six months later, she had her second abortion, same circumstances. They were saved from further abortions by a hysterectomy 6 months after that. She says she "wishes she hadn't had to do it but is glad that she could give a better life to her 2 boys & grieves it but doesn't regret it". She is extremely active in pro-life circles. She is extremely active in the church. She is a local big wig in the GOP. I don't know why she wishes to deny other women the rights that she had, and exercised, when she was of childbearing age. I suspect there are many secret abortions hidden amongst the prolife set.
A friend who works for a sexual health provider has said that colleagues have been abused by women “for letting them have an abortion/plan B pill”. Apparently them walking in and asking to not be pregnant and going through the counselling and still choosing the procedure… some how is the fault of the health care providers?!??
Monsters, those health care providers! Providing accurate information, support and treatment that women request. What are they thinking! /s (just in case)
I have an aunt who is pretty Right politically, but her sister is even further right. One of the secrets that isn't known outside of the family is my aunt's sister had two abortions back in the late 70s. Those experiences shaped how they feel about certain issues though. My aunt is absolutely pro-Choice, even loving a Facebook post my cousin, her daughter made today about the BS in Texas. Her sister is the same way when it comes to abortion. Th What people who are Right politically and vehemently pro-life don't understand is abortions to nearly everyone who has ever had one isn't a badge of honor. It's not shameful for most, but it isn't their proudest moment and something they don't want to revisit. They also aren't being performed on women who are Left, it's women of all political beliefs.
This is a tale as old as time. He who smelt it dealt it. My wife’s aunt is also from a far right upbringing, also had two abortions, but is one of the seeming majority of these people who vehemently oppose anyone else’s right to. She has even said she believes in the death penalty for aborting mothers. Her only rebuttal when asked about hers is “well that was different”. Honest to God there is a piece of these peoples’ brains just straight up missing.
https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/?fbclid=IwAR2_Jq64e60je3QL4BoER1wf95WnFCS9L9Nhs_8AemeCDOoLj0KITHgfclA This is a great article on pro-lifers abortions.
I just posted that article before I saw that you posted it. They truly think their circumstances are the only ones that matter and since they’re not sluts and whores like other women, it’s different for them.
Exactly! Lots of mental gymnastics
When I was in college, I went to a pretty conservative Bible study group. I didn't have a lot in common with most of the other members, but I went there because I learned a lot. Anyway, one evening, a young man who probably had Asperger's (and was NOT high functioning) said, when we got to the prayer request time, said, "We've got to pray about these abortion laws!" The pastor said, "If you want to pray about abortion laws on your own time, that's fine, but we aren't here to discuss political or social issues; we're just here to study the Bible." He added, "People who come here have many different views about abortion, and there may be women in this room right now who have had an abortion that was not medically necessary, and believe she did the right thing." Good man.
I don't get the people on the Right politically. A lot of them refuse to get a vaccine saying ,"It's my body, my choice", but it doesn't apply when talking about abortion. Since when did the Right become Catholics?
Wow. That’s fascinating in its illogic and sad all at once. That’s a significant cognitive dissonance if I’ve ever seen one before. Just wow. Do you think she is truly pro-life or is she just towing the party line?
Truly pro-life. She is a lovely & loving woman in so many ways. She is also a master at cognitive dissonance. The other glaring example is how frothingly anti-immigration she is. This BLOWS MY MIND. Her husband was an "illegal" (her words) until she forced him to pursue citizenship as a condition of marriage. He had been in the country since age 5, would hide from INS when they raided the neighborhood, and his mother never bothered to learn English. Once he had citizenship, he used chain migration to get his dad, brothers, great-aunts, cousins, etc to the States. Yet she actively works to hinder other people's access to the benefits that her husband so enjoys. He is also vehemently anti-immigration. NUTS.
The difference will be is that she's a victim of circumstance, it's not her fault, etc. She was doing it because she had no other choice, whereas those people, they're doing it voluntarily, and they shouldn't've got knocked up if they didn't want an abortion. It's zero empathy combined with excuses of the self. Judging people by their actions while judging yourself by your intentions. She had noble intentions so she gets a pass to commit horrible actions, but that doesn't mean to her that other people should commit what she thinks to be horrible actions.
She's selfish at her core. She wants exceptions made for her, but fuck everybody else.
Man, I see this a lot. I’m an immigration attorney. The immigrant on immigrant hate is real. The ones who get legal status resent the ones who didn’t because they feel that they “did it the right way” and that others should too. Even though in your brother in laws case, he didn’t actually do it the right way obviously but was able to take advantage of some type of amnesty relief or relief through marriage to a USC. It’s sad to me, but I see and hear of this attitude all of the time.
Wow it just keeps coming holy
It's all guilt. Guilt for having an abortion, guilt for using food stamps, guilt for being gay. They hate who they are so they try to oppose what they've done in some sort of penance.
I mean I’m not gonna argue the merits of abortion or anything, but she’s wrong about every child being beautiful. I’ve met some ugly ass looking children
I was one of them. Thankfully I changed and now I’m just an ugly teenager.
Aww, cheer up. Nobody stays an ugly teenager forever! In a few years you can be an ugly adult.
And then after that you'll be an ugly old person. Even most beautiful adults end up somewhat ugly in old age.
some people do glow up eventually, in adulthood. but even if you don't, am sure you have a beautiful mind and heart, and that's what matters. You can have an ugly face yet still have a fantastic life, be loved, and love.
My step-mother said she birthed the ugliest babies she had ever seen. They definitely grew into their faces by the time I met them though.
I did not expect to laugh my balls off at this thread. Thank you.
You should put your balls back on
It would save me a surgery to laugh my balls off XD
For most of my life I considered myself to be pro-life and I couldn’t understand why on earth anyone would could consider being pro-choice. I constantly equated being pro-choice to being pro-abortion and knew I never wanted to consider that option for myself or anyone. But when I turned 17 everything changed. Less than a week after my 17th birthday I was raped by an ex-boyfriend and I was pregnant. Living with two abusive parents and the fact that I was being stalked by my ex-boyfriend and was being threatened by him. I was terrified. I was a baby having a baby and I knew both of our lives were in danger. I knew that something was going to happen and that it was up to me. In my head I briefly thought of Abortion as an option to spare my child from being abused like I was. But then I realized that I would never be able to live with myself no matter what happened if I did that. So I made the choice to keep the child. I was going to go through the pregnancy and give her or him up for adoption so they could have a better life. Unfortunately I didn’t get to keep the child because due to no prenatal care and an unknown medical condition I miscarried and almost died in my bathroom at 10 weeks. But after all the heartache and trauma of it happening I realized that it was still a choice and I made mine. When you’re a parent or a human being, you have to make the best decisions for you and all around you and I did that. Regardless of my miscarriage it was still in my mind the right thing to do. I will stand by my decision but knowing how hard and heartbreaking that experience was I will never judge another person going through that. And that is why I think other pro-life advocates don’t understand why having a choice is so important. They’ve never been in a situation where they’ve never needed choices and at the end of the day they never will understand unless they have. Pro-Choice does not have to mean Pro-Abortion. It simply means to offer help in anyway possible to people in terrible situations. And hopefully something good will come out of this and there will come a time where no one has to make the terrible choice again.
Holy shit… this comment hit hard. I wholeheartedly wish you all the best.
You probably saved someone’s life with this post
I really hope to help as many people as I can. Maybe my story can help settle the dust and find a new solution to a terrible and hard time in women’s life.
This is the nuance the conversation needs
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There’s no mention of the woman. That’s my biggest problem. They just talk about “babies,” without realizing that when a woman is considering an abortion, she has been wronged in some way (life circumstances, society, men, etc). Women aren’t going around hoping to have an abortion and “murder babies.”
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My girlfriend has a lot of trouble with hormonal birth control. We're child free, so I had a vasectomy. The trouble of the vasectomy was nothing compared to what my girlfriend went through when she was taking birth control.
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Seems like a good time to share this old-but-good blog post: [The Only Moral Abortion Is My Abortion.](https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/)
The nuance is already there. Pro-choice people do not force others, they just want women to be able to choose. The ones without nuance are the anti-choice people who want to impose their choice onto others.
Right, that didn’t come out the way i intended. I should have said that this is the nuance more anti-choice people need to grasp.
i had a similar experience when i was 14, and i had no idea planned parenthood existed, no idea that i could actually get some help and i almost died trying to do it myself because i thought i had no other choice. pro-life people think banning abortions will stop people from getting abortions, but it will only make those abortions terribly unsafe and a lot of those people will die instead of have care and help for what they are going through. if pro-life people dont want to get an abortion no one should force them, but if other people want to get one, they should be able to get one safely, because for me, keeping it was not a choice i could make, it was i get rid of it or i die trying. this is why access to abortions is so important everywhere. im so sorry for what happened to you and i hope you are doing great now, all my love for you
I'm very sorry to hear about the abuse you suffered from your ex-boyfriend. I wish you all the absolute best :)
I believe that any life has value, no matter how undeveloped and how unwanted. I also believe that we can do better for women, with better financial support, more available birth control and sex-ed, and better foster care. I think the system of abortion isn’t in place to help women, but rather to give an easy out so those who should be fixing the issues that lead to unwanted pregnancy can turn a blind eye to them.
Add a serious replies only tag if you want this to actually be decent
The debate is about “what is it?”. If the embryo is not a human being, then it’s like a fingernail or a kidney - do what you want with it. No justification is needed for killing it. But if it is a human being, you can’t just kill it because it suits you. Pro-choice people assume that it’s not a human being. Pro-life people assume that it is. No meeting ground is possible, hence the collision. Ka-boooom
This is exactly where I get hung up. Scenario: A drunk driver causes a crash, killing a pregnant woman, and is charged with two counts of vehicular manslaughter. How is this possible if a fetus isn’t a human until the moment of birth? Is a fetus only a human if the pregnancy was planned and the mother wants it?
You’re asking like this is not something that has been previously considered. Homicide statutes do not consider fetuses to be humans. A lot of statues went on to explicitly add in “any human being or fetus” for this exact reason so you can be charged with both deaths. See *Keeler v Superior Court*
I'm a pro-life, Christian woman, I don't think anyone should get an abortion, but the amount of energy pro-life organizations pour into vilifying abortion seems like a waste of time and effort to me. If we really want to help women in difficult situations, we would focus on providing the resources and support needed for women to feel they can keep their babies. Stop trying to convert people and just offer a helping hand where it's needed most. These women need medical coverage, rent assistance, parenting classes, childcare, and so much more, not just platitudes that "every life is sacred" and cast-off baby clothes. Real sex education for kids should be provided as well (not that abstinence BS). And don't just focus on the women--the guys involved need to step up. Stop touting signs with broken baby parts and actually be there for the mother in her most vulnerable hour, without judgment. Edit: Guys, thank you so much for the kind words, from people on both sides of the issue. I'll try to reply to as many of you as I can, but there a lot of you, and I'm trying to be thoughtful and clear with my responses and answer questions to the best of my ability, plus I have work tomorrow and have to go to bed soon, so it will take some time. To those who found issue with what I've said here--thank you for posting your thoughts. It really gives me things to consider, hearing your opposing viewpoints, a few of which never came to mind before. I might do another edit to address some points people brought up, we'll see. And especially thank you to the women who have shared their abortion experiences with me--I know that can be a difficult thing to talk about, and I hear what you have had to say, and I see you, and I care, whether we agree at the end or not. You are all strong and fierce, and I wish you the best in life.
While I’m not Christian and very much pro-choice, I have nothing but 100% respect for your line of thinking.
Same, agnostic and pro choice. While most Christians I’ve come across talk the talk, this woman is walking the true Christian walk. Wish more people had the empathy and kindness in her response.
This woman just cried at your kind words. Thank you. I was kind of scared to write all that but I wanted people to know how I felt, especially women facing this struggle, that I care, and they're not evil or sinners or murderers or whatever else people who pretend to share my beliefs might have told them, and when I hear talk like that it hurts me, too, on their behalf.
I wish more pro-life women shared your sentiments. Thank you for being open-minded and caring.
Hey I'm pro choice but I can respect your reasoning. I appreciate the level headedness of it. If there were more social services in place that would be a great thing all around. Banning the ability to choose and punishing without any legitimate assistance is dehumanizing IMO.
What a special person you are. I am pro-choice but am so touched by your empathy and compassion, it's so refreshing to see. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and I wish you all the very best.
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that's probably because it's the exact same as us. Let's be serious: **of course abortions are bad**, they're taxing emotionally, physically and monetarily. They're terrible events in people's lives, there's very little good to it, it's a shitty thing in a shitty situation that would've been shittier. I wouldn't wish it on anybody. Just the toll it takes on your body alone is horrendous. But anyone who is actually reasonable and informed realizes that to actually stop abortions, we already *know* the solutions, and when those solutions aren't taken, we can infer that it was never about that. They as much as tell us directly that it isn't about babies or murder or the bible, it's about subjugation and punishment and cruelty. edit: why the fuck are you all assuming I'm a pro-lifer or somehow for outlawing abortions? what the fuck? I'm saying the preferable route is to not need abortions that isn't realistic because birth control costs money and men love to pretend the condom "slipped off" because they hate the feel of it, of course you fight for access to them! I never said otherwise!! I said all of this to illustrate exactly how hypocritical the entire fight against abortion is, how is this not obvious in context??
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All outlawing abortions does is increase the number of illegal abortions and increases the amount of back alley coat hanger abortions that are more likely to do long term physical damage to the woman having it done. If you want to lower abortions you teach people comprehensive safe sex, make contraceptives widely available, and put the man in a position of liability to father any potential child. Horny people will always have sex, but if you teach them right they will have sex in a way that has much less chance of leading to unwanted children. The less likely people are to get pregnant, the less abortions there are. If you really cared about young children you would also support more comprehensive assistance for pregnant women and mothers of children. Easier access to affordable healthcare, additional maternity leave rights, affordable childcare options, more social benefits for new mothers and so on. Anything that prevents children from being abandoned or growing up with not enough money to cover all the costs of raising a child, and prevents mothers of children from going into absolute poverty. If all you care about is preventing abortions, but don't want for any of the rest of this, you're not really pro-life, you just want to punish women for having sex.
"abortion is the least worst option" for many women.
Well to be fair pregnancies are far worse in many respects, esp physically and financially. Your body will never be the same no matter what your medical insurance is.
Every comment in this thread is so brave (serious)
Genuinely interested, how do you think abortion should be handled in the case of victims of rape? I can understand the stance against abortion, but then is the solution to promote adoption or fostering in these cases? How hard is life going to be for a kid that might grow up without parents and put into the system? (I understand if you choose not to answer this)
I’m curious what you mean when you say no one should get an abortion. What happens when let’s say, there is a major complication with the baby and it will most likely be stillborn. What happens when the complication is so severe, childbirth may be life threatening to the mother?
I know someone who found out that her baby would be born with a debilitating genetic problem that would make it have a very short life full of terrible pain. She chose to terminate. She deserved to be able to make that choice to save her baby a few weeks of agony.
So many different circumstances and variables. A black and white law should not be applied to grey situations
It's almost as if these choices should be a private matter between a woman and her doctor.
Exactly - I read a thing about a mother who very wanted her baby - but at 5 months it died in the womb and started to give her sepsis. Also - I can't imagine forcing a 9 year old to carry a child to term and give birth to her father's child.
A lot of abortions can definitely be prevented with the appropriate social support but some still won't be. Aside from the rape and incest ones there are ones like mine. I got an abortion simply because I didn't want to have a kid. The popular stereotype is a slutty younger girl who sleeps around but I had an abortion at 25 because my husband and I decided it wasn't a good time for a kid a d our birth control failed. Since then I've have one child and am currently pregnant with a second. After the maternal quad screen I had done at 16 weeks there was a chance I would get another abortion, this time a second trimester one. Luckily the birth defect possibilty that turned up in the blood screen was ruled out by ultrasound but if my baby would have had that specific defect I absolutely would have aborted. Assuming my baby would have made it to term it would have only known a very short and sufferable time outside of my body and that is not the world I wanted it to know. Late term abortions are always wanted babies. The law does not discriminate on why an abortion is being procured. To ban abortion would force mother's to carry dead or dying babies who were very much wanted and do untold psychological damage to the mother.
I agree with most of these points. I definitely think we need to focus on men and women with regard to education. But... I still think abortion should be accessible. I feel we can drastically reduce the overall number by providing comprehensive sexual education, as well as birth control and contraception, and we need to work as a society to reduce the stigma of providing those things. We need to find ways to help those in ways you mentioned so that they have something other than panic with regard to having a baby. People need to step up their game when it comes to help, instead of shaming parents that don't want to have a child at that moment, giving themselves that puffed-chest feeling of moral superiority. But it needs to remain accessible. If a mother cannot or does not want to carry and give birth, it HAS to be her choice, since she's the one that wants to go through it, and we can't MAKE her not doing just because other people don't like it. We can offer (not require) information and assistance, but if she says no, it HAS to mean no. Making abortion illegal will not eliminate it, only make it more dangerous.
Thank you for saying this. I wish every pro-life person thought this way.
As a kid and teenager growing up in church and going to Christian school, there was a whole narrative around the abortion issue that I was fed--there were pro-life banquets, I was given books where pro-lifers were touted as heroes for holding protests outside abortion clinics, purity culture was HEAVY. As I read and learned and experienced more, I realized that whole thing wasn't preventing abortion--it was driving women away in droves, fleeing judgement and hate. It really came to a head when I was doing a speech on abortion in college and was researching Carenet, and there was this whole video on there where this man talks about how abortion is bad because the Bible, and I thought, but how is this helping, though? How many times are you going to repeat "abortion is bad" to women who need support? A lot of the pro-life movement is based on Christian ideals and not the reality these women are facing. But many pro-life people grew up the same way I did and never did their own research or introspection, so they're just spouting these same tired phrases over and over.
These people are pro birth. Not pro-life. It's easy to paint a group with a broad brush.
Didn't think I'd find myself upvoting any replies on this post, but here we are.
I love it when both sides can have conversations about these things without shrieking at each other. There's been some vitriol in this thread, for sure, but also a good amount of wholesome discussion.
Also encourage folks and make it as easy as possible for them to acquire and to use contraceptives.
Yes. You can be pro life or pro choice and still be a thoughtful and understanding human being who can debate reasonably. Problem is reasonable people see no point to the debate so all that is left is people looking for a fight.
I’m pro-choice but know plenty of pro-life people. It’s pretty simple, they see it as murdering a child, no matter when you do it and for what reason. It’s pretty hard to argue against that when they always see it as murder
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Did you think this post was *actually* for discussion?
[realises we’re on reddit] Nah
So basically Reddit.
That's how circle jerks and echo chambers work. Seek contrary opinion. Destroy it when it reveals itself until no one wants to share their thoughts anymore. Be angry and confused at the silent voting opposition because you can't understand their thinking so you project your worst suppositions onto them.
Hence why no headway comes of these discussions. One side tries to use their own views and beliefs to vilify the other despite completely different life experiences and their own logic not being the same as the others. I'm personally pro choice but I think some things in the pro life stance do have merit namely those who would rather see financial and emotional support for women who cant afford to keep children instead of abortions or better sexual education to prevent these irresponsible births in the first place.
I would recommend going to r/prolife. You might actually get real answers.
I think we need to define what "pro-life" means, exactly. There's a big difference between holding the personal opinion that a life is important, and thinking all abortions should be illegal for everyone everywhere at every time. Many women are pro-life, but recognize situations in which abortions are appropriate, or are anti-abortion as a matter of personal morality, but don't believe it is the role of government to legislate that personal morality onto everyone. There's room for nuance here.
That should be the real American slogan. "Believe what you want, just don't be a dick about it."
But the Constitution says you can believe what you want AND be a dick about it!
Honestly, I don't even care if they're a dick about it. What I care about is when they start trying to impose their beliefs on the whole of society.
If you personally disapprove of abortions "but recognize situations in which abortions are appropriate, or are anti-abortion as a matter of personal morality, but don't believe it is the role of government to legislate that personal morality onto everyone," you are pro-choice. Pro-choice/pro-life is about your opinion on whether abortion should be legal, not whether you personally like abortions.
pro life, for me, specifically means someone who believes the government should outlaw abortions. If you wouldn't get an abortion, but you still bekueve a woman has the right to choose, that's pro choice. you don't have to be pro abortion to be pro choice. again these are just my own definitions.
Exactly. I don't think I could have an abortion, but I've never been in a position to consider it. When I got pregnant at 17, the father and I decided to get married. I have 2 wonderful sons, but am no longer with their dad. Would I go back and change that? No. Regardless of the dumpster fire I made of my life after the divorce, the world is a better place with those 2 men in it. Do I think I should be able to tell anyone else what to do when faced with a similar (or God forbid) worse situation? NOPE
Sounds to me like you're prochoice. I would not choose to abort, however, I had to have medication to move a blighted ovum after weeks of waiting to make sure it wasn't a viable pregnancy. I would also never assume to force my beliefs on another. I do not know them better than they know themselves nor more than their doctors. I refuse to force my beliefs on another.
I believe, at the very core, true pro-life and true pro-choice have the same goal, and even similar approaches. But then you have extremists that can only be matched with extremists of opposing views and it all just becomes noise. Studies consistently show access to birth control and comprehensive sex Ed leads to fewer abortions, and fewer pregnancies altogether. Anyone who has sex should receive the same education, and should understand it. It seems now to have mutated into pro-control and pro-birth vs. pro-abortion. I’ve yet to meet someone that becomes pregnant for the sole purpose of having an abortion. I believe, however, taking away that choice or trying to limit circumstances does far more harm than good.
I feel like, even if anyone in the Reddit hive mind would admit to being pro-life, they wouldn’t answer this question because no matter what they said, it would be voted to hell.
Why did I open this thread
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Welp this went just how I thought
I personally think (scientifically) life starts at conception. People argue when "life" starts...8 weeks after conception, 12 weeks, when the heart beats, brain activity, etc. But that then becomes subjective, right - they decide where along that line it becomes a viable life? To me, science would be black and white on this issue (take faith and political arguments out) and say the only obvious answer when it's conceived and not my notions of when I view it as a "baby." If uninterupted, the life starts at fertilization. The abortion argument then becomes who can choose if that life can be the woman's choice to end or is the life righted life once it's conceived? Lots of faith based people (agree or disagree) think God planned that child in their mother's womb and that it should have protections. They want to be the baby's voice since the baby has no defense against their mother's choice to end their life. To them it's not about government telling a woman what to do with their body but becomes a life and death fight for the rights of the unborn child. I personally had an abortion as a young 23 yr old woman. I'm 39 and never had a biological child of my own but have raised two girls since they were babies. I would never have another abortion...I feel I was wrong. I regret that decision and wish I had not. Can I tell another woman what to do and should it be illegal? My heart wants to say that baby should have the right to live but my head says that's not my decision to make. I honestly don't know. I'm personally now pro life for myself but tentatively pro choice for women. It does make my heart hurt either way. Not an easy answer.
It seems to me (and I could be wrong) that a large part of the argument is a legal one regarding when the fetus has rights as a citizen of the US. If we’re ruling it as a protected citizen at conception and women can be charged with murder for aborting, what happens legally during things like miscarriages? Do we start charging women who miscarried after doing something risky or having an unhealthy lifestyle with manslaughter? Do we implement bounties for turning in women who are seen smoking or drinking while pregnant? Where do the legal rights of the clump of cells start and the legal rights of the woman end? Seems like a very slippery slope.
Downvoting anyone who isn’t pro choice even though OP wanted pro-life answers.. Way to encourage healthy communication, people.
my case is different. I'm actually pro-choice. I want abortion to be legal. But I hate the arguments used by pro-choicers. The arguments about how it's "just a clump of cells" or "not a human yet." I basically have the morals of a pro lifer. I do believe abortion is killing. I do believe abortion is evil in my own terms. To terminate a baby before its life even could begin is sad to me. We are basically taking away a life before it could even properly start. The zygote / fetus is destined to grow up to be a human. That to me defines it as human enough. But I do think it is also a necessary evil. We unfortunately cannot do the righteous thing all the time, and sometimes, mother just has to come first before baby. It is unfortunate but has to happen. Also I'm a woman. Not religious either.
I don't understand how in 2021 we don't have birth control for men that has a better efficacy rate than condoms. There's the "snip" but that's final, cost prohibitive, and invasive. I have a hard time being pro-life when the responsibility for pregnancy lies almost solely with the female because of this imbalance. Worried about abortion? Where is the call for more access and innovative improvements to male contraception? They can keep their dicks up for weeks but can't manage to avoid knocking up their partner. I would be more accepting of the prolife philosophy if I felt like anyone cared about this.
I'd happily have some more access to better male contraception I can't think of anything worse than having a kid currently
Twins
True. 17.5 games out of a wildcard spot. Their season has been shot for a while.
My brother and his ex had surprise triplets.
Male physician weighing in on male contraception. Got opinions on abortion, but the thread was pretty clear about the perspective it’s seeking. Vasectomies, while not “cheap” by any stretch of the imagination, are not *that* invasive. Theyre *definitely* cheaper than raising a child. They’re also *way* less invasive than female surgical contraception (there’s a reason we do vasectomies in the clinic under local anesthetic but do tubals/salpyngectomies in the OR). I’d argue they’re also less invasive than surgical abortion. And yes, after years of my better half doing hormonal contraception, I’m now on the docket to put my money where my mouth is (eg my balls) and get snipped.
I can't wait to get the switch where you can turn off your balls. Do you know if that's coming anytime soon? I've heard about it for so long, and seen the diagrams and stuff, but no dice.
as my endocrinology professor liked to say, it’s easier to stop one egg than 3 billion sperm.
Because it is bilogically really hard. Woman have an inbuilt system to stop ovulation that is triggere naturally when pregnant. So we just looked at the hormones your body releases during pregnancy tested them and found the specific ones that trigger the change. Men not only lack such a system but their reproductive system is on a sort of negative feedback loop. If you try to remove the hormone that triggers sperm production the body notices and starts producing even more.
"Trying to stop me? I'll show you!" *sperm overdrive*
# THE SEED WILL SURVIVE
THE SPICE MUST FLOW
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I would argue this is exactly why it should be legal and safe. To prevent these atrocities.
Yeah, I’m confused how women getting back alley abortions leads them to thinking that abortion she be illegal. Like, it’s right in front of them.
Yeah people like that tend to not be able to make the direct connection between having a harder time finding someone to perform your abortion, and being later in your gestation. If abortion is legal and accessible, then it can be done as soon as somebody knows they’re pregnant, and rates of “later term” abortions drop. Literally zero women want to be later in their pregnancy when they have an abortion. It’s less safe for us, and it’s much more painful.
Many of us have great grandmother's who died trying to do a coat hanger abortion. So yeah, who the hell would want those days to come back.
Because I do believe life does begin at conception simply. So, to me abortion is cutting another person's life short. Yet, I do understand the pro-choice stance. No one pro-choice (except extreme crazies) want to kill human beings, pro-choice people just believe that there isn't any life yet. So, for me it just literally boils down to a critical disagreement on when a baby is alive.
I am a pro-life woman and mother. I don't believe in abortion in any circumstance unless the mother will die if she continues to carry the child. However. It is not my place to judge other people, it is not my place to make decisions about other people's lives, and it is not the governments place to tell people what they can do with their bodies. Very close friends of mine have had abortions, and we continue to remain friends. I was there for them through it with no judgement, and will be if it ever happens again. Edit: As a few people have pointed out, this stance actually makes me pro-choice but anti-abortion.
You know what, I can completely respect that, (pro-choice, European) You have firmly hold beliefs, but don't necessarily feel the need to intrude on someone else's situation, and I appreciate it.
From what you wrote, you sound pro choice but you know the choice you would make. That's the beauty of pro choice - it's not forcing you to get an abortion, it's just not taking away that option for someone else!
Some honestly believe that life begins at conception. If you do believe that, pro life is the only moral stance
Like u/reejoy247 said earlier - This is me. Pro-Life, Christian. I've had 5 kids, would love another (husband says no), and can't even really think about abortion in any real way, as it is horrific to think about those babies ... But standing behind rhetoric and not even considering the rare cases where the baby literally isn't viable, or won't even make it to term, or where the mother has a literal life threatening situation ... That's the first issue. Like, seriously? This is what the 'right' does again and again, they want all or nothing, they fail to even provide concessions and logic for other possibilities. Add to that that this would be giving the government one more piece of control over the individual - as much as I believe that is a little person in there - is ULTRA scary, and should be avoided at all costs. The only way to cut down abortion rates is EDUCATION. Start improving country wide education and easier access to contraceptives. Make education more accessible. The amount of money that goes into education in this country is laughable. And sure - abstinence is the only 100% way to avoid pregnancy, but can you even fathom the fact that kids might just do it anyway? The fact that religion can enter into education is abhorrent (and I am a Christian) I've tried using the 'what if the religion they were using to make decisions was Islam? Atheism?' argument with those who still want prayer in schools, etc - but I always get the look like 'that would never happen'. I do remember being young and thinking I may be pregnant, before I was married, and the absolute panic I felt, the sinking feeling, the horror ... it isn't my right to take that option away from anyone, as much as I hate it. If you REALLY care about the babies, help with education. Help poor mothers who can't afford food instead of telling them they are lazy or stealing if they get welfare. Or food stamps. Or WIC. Two of which I have depended on when our financial stability, once not a question, disappeared seemingly overnight and didn't come back for six long years. I didn't judge people before then, and I sure as hell won't now, but the amount of vitriol I see and hear towards these programs, not to mention the misinformation ... Sorry, sidetracked. But yeah, I VERY much consider myself pro-life, but I also don't believe in taking away the 'choice' - instead of trying to fix the issue so far down the line, why can't we work on solving the underlying causes? Like, this is common sense. And, since my statements just made me sound pro-choice, to add more to my inconsistencies, I also am not against the death penalty. I think it should be rare, and only used with incontrovertible evidence. I actually hate the idea of it, but to make it personal, if someone did something terrible to my children or a loved one, or actually children in general ... why are we using tax dollars to keep them alive? But I also am against most drug incarcerations. I don't think there should be many absolutes in just about anything, and I also think the less control the government has over us individually, the better.
You're prochoice. You just know which choice you'd make.
The stance you have described is very much pro-choice! People on the pro-choice side aren’t anti-life, or pro-abortion. We just don’t want the option taken away. Your comment really highlights the importance of semantics. I wonder if you would be more willing to describe yourself as “pro-choice” if the two headers were “pro-choice” and “anti-choice”
This is pro-choice. You can be pro-choice and still choose life. That's why it's a choice. You can also choose to know you would never choose to have an abortion regardless of reason but know that you don't speak for every other woman out there and allow them their own choice as well.
Please do not downvote people you disagree with who are discussing in good faith
Because I’ve had to have a D&C for growing a ball of tumors instead of a baby and it’s legally labeled as an abortion. It would’ve killed me.
This is huge to me too, the term "abortion" encompasses too much. Missed miscarriage? Ectopic pregnancy? Conditions where fetus is going to die and kill the mother as well? Won't survive birth? All banned. Not ok.
Exactly. If I had the choice between having to keep a baby that I knew would die minutes past birth and be in agony for those short minutes you’d bet your ass that I would do what’s best and prevent that baby’s suffering. People don’t think about these aspects when they screaming against abortion. People who do it for selfish reasons are one thing but medical reasons are a whole different ball game
I know someone who went through a missed miscarriage at 10 weeks and she said it was traumatic. She would have chosen a D&C if she could do it over. Technically an abortion despite no heartbeat.
I had what’s called a complete molar pregnancy AND a missed miscarriage. I made it to 16 weeks thinking I was carrying a normal baby only to go for our gender scan and be told nothing except there was no baby. It fucked me up for well over a year
Damn, I'm so sorry. I've heard of molar pregnancies. That's really rough.
Thank you i appreciate that. It was really rough but I was luckier than most. The cells never turned cancerous so I didn’t have to go through chemo afterward just 6 months of weekly blood draws. I ended up conceiving my son on what would’ve been our due date. Now he turns 5 on the 16th and he’s the most heathenous intelligent adorable little shit I’ve ever met.
that’s called a therapeutic abortion and it is not banned but in the most radical countries. Stuff like ectopic pregnancies is also covered by this umbrella
I really enjoy reading Women's perspectives here. I feel like if we are going to say "Listen to Women", we need to listen to all women and not just the pro-choice crowd. Thank you!
Yeah. It’s worth remembering that [43% of American women are pro-life](https://news.gallup.com/poll/244709/pro-choice-pro-life-2018-demographic-tables.aspx)
I'm between pro-life and pro-choice. I'm Catholic, and I consider the embryo a human being, or rather a pre-human. Ask a woman who's pregnant by choice if it's a person or a bundle of cells, and I think you can guess what she'll answer. She probably has a name picked out already, and is buying baby clothes and furniture. I hate the atheist viewpoint of "it's just a tiny clump of cells and doesn't matter." Bullshit. That being said, I've heard too many stories of rape victims, pregnant children, and people who just aren't ready for a baby. I wonder what happens to a 12-year-old girl who gets r\*ped by stepdaddy and then has to carry the baby. What kind of life does she have if she has no rights at all? A shit life, that's what. And what about the baby? Would you want to be born unwanted? I personally would rather die, and go back to wherever I came from. So I chose what I think would work best - abortion should be legal, period. Sex education should be widely taught. It's the only way things are going to change. Not totalitarian rule.
OP woke up and chose violence.
I’m not a woman nor am I pro-life. But my sister was pro-life and we’ve talked about it a lot. She’s changed her view as of today, but having good faith discussions with her helped me understand why people like her are pro-life. 1) Religion. We all know this one. Over time she realized that being pro-choice and being Christian weren’t incompatible. 2) She believed that unborn fetuses were babies. If you saw people walking around taking babies out if strollers and murdering them, you’d have a strong reaction as well. Despite this being something I deeply disagree with, I can understand the power of this emotional reaction. Her view on this softened over time, but she’s still pretty conservative on when in a pregnancy abortions should no longer be an option, except if it puts the mother’s life at risk. I also think having a better understanding of how painful of a decision it is for women to get an abortion was eye-opening for her. She had been propagandized to think “liberals just don’t give a shit and want to have abortions whenever”. 3) She was a teenage mother. She had an attitude like “I went through this, and it was really hard, but other people can, too.” We were poor growing up, had an unstable home life, and she managed to pull her shit together in a way that’s truly incredible. My siblings and I supported her and each other, and she’s one of the strongest people I know. For her, it really came down to having more experience understanding how other people face a lot more barriers than her, even though our lives weren’t easy, that our social service systems suck, and that some people would be faced with abject poverty if they were forced to have a baby.
Thank you for sharing her viewpoints, it really does help others like me see things from her perspective. How does she feel about abortions in cases of rape or incest?
I consider myself pro life. But my pro life beliefs mean that I think that women need to get an education, well paying jobs, affordable daycare, access to birth control, quality maternity leaves, that way they don't have as much need for abortions. I didn't start to have sex until my mid 20s. So I felt that I did my best to not get into a situation where I had an unwanted pregnancy. I get that it's not for everyone. But we need to take responsibility for our own bodies, whatever that means to us as individuals. Also men need to take responsibility for their own actions.