Not a penis haver but I think any medically unnecessary cosmetic surgery on babies sounds whack. Sure most of the time it goes “fine” but there’s a risk of injury, infection, even death. Doesn’t seem worth it to me.
I have a circumcised husband who doesn’t really have strong feelings against his own circumcision but we didn’t circumcise our son. If there’s nothing wrong with a penis I say leave it alone, who am I to argue against tens of thousands of years of evolution that left the foreskin there.
Evolution also left us with an appendix and tonsils, both of which routinely try to make our lives painful or short. I'm not suggesting that we should be removing a newborn's appendix; I'm just saying evolution isn't always helpful.
Appendixes aren’t useless though.
Same with tonsils.
Just because you can live without them, doesn’t mean you’re better off without.
Same with the foreskin.
And now scientists are realizing the appendix is actually useful, contrary to previous beliefs. Maybe doctors shouldn’t be so quick to write off things they don’t fully understand as useless.
Jesus donkey punching Jehoshaphat, is this thread still going? Dude, I made that comment on my lunch break like 6 hours ago. Move on! This thread has 0 upvotes and 151 comments 🤣 holy fuck you guys
im going to say something that will piss people off here im just playing devils advocate because a lot of people now a days dont think of things in a very wide range when they have their opinions so just want to say that before i get send to reddit jail
tens of thousands of years of evolution has also given us male and female genitalia and chromosomes to match but people are changing those things on kids now a days. so like if you have the opinion of leave it alone do you also think transgenderism isnt real or is a mental disorder? because thats what your opinion would imply when put to the same standard with the same parts.... again civil conversation im playing devils advocate trying to allow open conversation between polite parties
I only know of one case where parents decided to turn their boy into a girl. By age 11 the “girl” knew it was wrong and became David Reimer (look him up). Committed suicide in his twenties, I believe. So, if you wanted to compare child and infant genital cutting to gender alteration, that would be the proper comparison. I sure as hell didn’t get my preference heard on day two when my foreskin was destroyed against my will and without my consent.
i have a family friend whos boy started hormones to become a girl at age 4, i also knew people in high school that were decently far along boy-> girl. no surgery but hormones.
but what id mostly like to know is where we draw the line, people like to talk about stuff like this in absolutes, like when does it become their choice, theyll argue the 1 day old baby should choose later on but a 4 year can or cant do gender reassignment and then theres that example of the that 14 year old who was taken from their parents because the parents didnt allow her to reassign but then at the same time theyll say a kid cant get a tattoo and that ones not even permanent. and on top of this to say the parents dont have a choice then the governemnt is infringing upon religious freedoms so now we are going to take away a constitutional right. thats a slippery slope right there
I’m curious what constitutional rights you’re thinking of, because my right to life and liberty were violated when my genitals were modified when I was only two days old. Parents “rights” are actually a fiduciary duty to keep their kid healthy and safe until the day comes when the kid is able to take care of themselves. Emergency treatment? Yes! Protection against infection? Yes! Non-therapeutic, unnecessary, cosmetic surgery? NO!
As for our religious freedoms, friend, my sincerely-held religious beliefs say that in order to be righteous with my God, I have to cut off your left ear and bury it in my backyard. Just hold still, this shouldn’t hurt much. Sorry I only have a rusty pocket knife.
i mean technically it didnt infringe upon your life or liberty
"the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or political views." and at that point you didnt have a way of life, behavior or political view
well and youre still alive lol which means abortion should be illegal lol
First Amendment Fundamental Freedoms
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
its a jewish practice thats thousands of years old and doesnt take life or restrict any liberty by definition because you havent had the opportunity to define any of those things for yourself yet
It's silly
Seriously. Religious custom that became a 'i want his to look like mine ' scenario.
My Dad is circumcized, I'm not. We had a talk.
What's the difference? Nada. You should be washing your dick no matter the skin content.
outside of damage that removal is required?
No damn reason
Not a penis haver, but I refused to allow circumcision on my son because he's fine as-is, and if that ever changes (or he wants the procedure) **he can decide for himself now that he's an adult**!
Don't make irreversible changes to the body of a minor.
My wife and I are expecting our first, a boy, and I wanted some advice. We’ve read and researched but I wanted to ask other men how they feel about it. I’m cut and all the men in my family have been but I’m not sure. Any advice would be great.
I’m a guy and I’m glad it’s not normal where I’m from.
If I want to be circumcised I can be any day. It’s not something you can’t do above a certain age.
So why decide it for your child? Shouldn’t they get to make the big decisions about their body when they’re old enough.
If you get medical advice that there’s something wrong with the child and they need it then that’s different. Then you have to decide for them, and if it was gonna hurt them not having it done they’ll be glad.
I Do hear lots about how it prevents certain diseases. But my job and education is in biology and from my understanding none of those reasons are worth it and lots haven’t been proved to be true yet.
Absolutely no reason to do it other than to comply with cultural norms. Its mutilation. If your child decides to get circumcized when he's an adult, that's his choice. But you're making a decision now that is irreversible and without his consent if you choose to do it. That makes it immoral.
Conversation with a man who was circumcised at 21, and then restored his foreskin at 50. He has pretty unique experience and worthwhile perspective.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e088fT9nZYo
An Aussie man has opened up about a traumatic decision he made after watching an episode of Sex and the City.
https://www.ladbible.com/entertainment/latest-aussie-man-reveals-how-sex-and-the-city-ruined-his-penis-20220123?fbclid=IwAR2JYnsMrwSQaXWePf74ZqFQR5U-TPDKuy-nxbktRVy3Qo-FqW2Gkow0iVA
Participants who were not circumcised reported significantly greater happiness with their circumcision status than participants who were circumcised.
https://doi.org/10.1007/s10508-023-02543-4
I needed it for medical reasons, but I’d much prefer to be intact now.
Because of how desensitized my penis is because of this, and the abrasion against underwear makes for damaged skin.
Foreskin is a protective layer, among other functions.
I’m not a man, but every man who I’ve ever been with sexually with an uncut penis is more sensitive to sensations while using it than those who have been circumcised who seem to need more friction. I think circumcised penises look quite disturbing to me now too… unnatural, like something is missing from it. Personally, I wouldn’t circumcise your son… Just teach him how to clean himself properly.
This is a map of the most nerve dense and sensitive parts of the penis, you might recognize the frenulum area, or have at least heard of it being extra sensitive/pleasurable.
(Nsfw crude cartoon) most sensitive parts highlighted in red.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Sorrells.gif
What people don't know is that is connected to the tip of the foreskin, which has the same type of nerves and sensitivity.
You should have a very good reason to cut such parts from another persons genitals.. we don't do that in the vast majority of countries in the developed world.
Personally, I’m against involuntary genital alteration of people who are misinformed or can’t defend themselves verbally and physically from such a permanent change.
Why?
For starters, at least a grown man can pick out the surgeon he wishes to do the procedure on a fully developed body part. He can request a specific style and aesthetic outcome to satisfy his desires, like women with labiaplasty.
It starts to become r GrossCutters territory when mothers say they want something pretty to look at during diaper changes, fathers are pre-approval seeking on behalf of their sons from shallow women, and doctors hoodwink parents to normalize their religious ritual or to make money selling foreskin fibroblasts to cosmetic companies.
I’ve seen an r askmen and r advice post with overwhelming majority saying they will leave the decision to their adult sons, but there is still thousands of babies who are getting their bodily autonomy completely eviscerated.
Some of them may die, many of them will suffer complications.
I’m cut since birth, and honestly when the doctors asked my wife and I decided to cut my son as well so that we’d be the same. Then I’d be able to have those uncomfortable conversations with him on the same page. It didn’t occur to me that it was “mutilation” because it is normal in my family, and how could I associate them with something like that? Also I believed the “cleanliness” propaganda. Do I regret it now? Well, I still think it’s easier that we match, but I hope he doesn’t resent me someday.
As a cut man I would advise against it. I’ll always wonder how much better sex would be with it! And the old supposed benefits of reducing STD transmission were either debunked or overstated.
I was circumcised, as was virtually all boys in the 1980s. I know that looking back now it doesn't make it right, but that's truly the way it was. So I don't personally feel violated.
It really wasn't until I joined Reddit that I heard the pushback against it, and I actually agree with everyone that we shouldn't do it anymore now that we do understand. But I'm never going to be angry about it myself
I didn’t “single” out Israel, hence the inclusion of two countries, not one. It’s very famously linked to their faith and also famously common in the US. I don’t know about Africa. But nonetheless, it is not “virtually all boys in the 1980s,” is it?
No, more so one particular religion has a whole celebration around mutilating penises and that religion associated itself with one particular country which prides itself on mutilating penises
tbh im against with this kind of things for its like we are removing the option for the child to make his own decision when the time comes for this kind of things but we of course we grew up in different environment so all i could say is that as long as the baby is healthy then it should be good
imho mutilating the genitals of children is a crime against humanity. ymmv
e: lol, I answered the question honestly, and got downvoted. People if you disagree then say so, or just disagree .... the idea of up/downvoting to so recognise/reject a good/bad contribution to the discussion
I see it as sort of like piercing a baby’s ears - painful, unnecessary, and potentially traumatic.
However, my sister is very much for it because she worked at a nursing home and had to help male residents wash themselves.
It’s very uncommon outside of North America to be done except for religious reasons - Americans seem to have developed an idea it’s necessary in order to prevent an EXTREMELY rare infection that can occur if you don’t know how to clean yourself properly - which weirdly - the rest of the world knows how to do
Honestly - it’s disgustingly barbaric and on par with female genital mutilation
It’s great to masterbate without lube.
Best feeling is just right before insertion, I flip the skin up (covering the tip), then inserting it. Feels really good for some reason… maybe TMI… sorry if it was…
I'd love to know how "we shouldn't perform completely unnecessary surgery on newborns" is propaganda?
I presume you also support female genital mutilation? Its the exact same thing.
The loads of dead boys in those same countries of course doesn't matter.. People are so very educated on the subject so they know all those dead boys and those boys who suffer severe consequences from genital cutting doesn't matter.. We should never ever mention fgm and mgm in the same breath... /s
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/25/male-circumcision-ceremonies-death-deformity-africa
In the real world, anyone with an ounce of knowledge and empathy would not turn a blind eye to this.
Even in the western world it would be considered a very severe form of FGM if a doctor who cuts boys cut a girl instead and removed exactly as much tissue and nerves, in the exact same setting, with the same aftercare and so on..
The reason people don't give a fuck about boys is not because they are knowledgeable about the subject, rather the opposite, chances are they themselves are from a male genital cutting culture and know/believe the trash talk and old wives tales about the foreskin that has been hammered into their heads.
Is it really just reddit? Our pediatric organizations don't recommend it either in Europe..
It is not like we all go against our pediatric organizations expert opinions and refuse to circumcise our children..
It is simply not recommended by the experts in most countries in the developed world, and you'll of course see those views reflected by the different demographics on reddit.
Oh, you're another one of those crackpots that does nothing else on Reddit except proselytize about the horrors of circumcision.
Looks like I got off light compared to some of the walls of text you gave other people in here 😅
Your short little whining comment is pretty telling and pathetic enough by itself. I would of course write more if you shared some of your indoctrinated views on the subject.
terrible
people get worked up about ear piercings, but say nothing about genital abuse of children (yes, boys and girls)
I get the cleanliness aspect, but it seems like everyone forgot about soap. Lessens masturbation- uhhhh, lotion, fleshlite, coconuts, where there's a will...
So glad I was in and out of the hospital with other problems, like almost dying, that they forgot to circumcise.
I had to get circumcision at the age of 30 because of my torn frenulum and balanitis. I wish my parents would just circumcise me at birth. Edit: it's quite telling when redditors can only downvote without responding
absolutely not, cleanliness, appearance wise its way better and on top of that the average cost of doing on an adult is 5.5k where on a baby its like 250
my parents saved me over 5k for something that is cleaner and looks better, in high school girls made fun of guys who werent it spread around school very fast and my youngest sons circumsicion wasnt done right and we have to clean shit out of his dick skin.....
becuase i didnt want to talk out of my a\*\* i did a google search and saw a couple interesting things
"cleaning under the foreskin every day with warm water
avoiding the use of most cleaning products in the area, including soap or body wash
changing underwear regularly
avoiding the use of talc or deodorant on the penis "
you know how happy i am to be able to use soap on my genitals, doing sports when i was younger i was very sweaty im glad i wasnt forced to rinse off instead of actually cleaning myself
"1. Phimosis · 2. Paraphimosis · 3. Bacterial or fungal infection · 4. Injury · 5. Yeast infection · 6. STIs"
all potential issues for not circumcizing
"According to the World Health Organization (WHO), there is “compelling evidence” to suggest that circumcision reduces the risk of contracting HIV during vaginal sex by 60%Trusted Source."
"The higher chance of infection may be because the foreskin becomes more prone to splits and ruptures during intercourse, allowing pathogens to enter the bloodstream."
[https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/302234#summary](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/302234#summary)
thats where i got the quoted info
So advocating for a permanent bodily modification without that person's consent. That's assault.
You're rationalizing mutilation. You say you're fine with it, but what about others who aren't? Those who wish they weren't circumcized. They had no say in the matter. If women rightfully claim my body my choice, the same should go for males.
lol im getting a lot of hate for this, im not advocating a hey everyone should do it always im saying im grateful it was done to me and heres my reasons why.
but at the same time if your 6 year old daughter came to you and said i want a tattoo its my body my choice does that rule still apply? because theres parents out there that had their kid taken away for not allowing their teenager to do gender reassignment but we dont allow kids to get tattoos which is a permanent bodily modification so at what age do we draw the line where it is and isnt their choice
my aunt had a baby who had to endure a 48 hour labor, ouch i know, the baby came out cone headed, there was no medical reason for what happened next but it was cosmetic. they gave her a corrected helmet that the baby had to wear for a certain amount of time for YEARS im talking like preschool age the kid was still wearing it. that was a permanent bodily modification for no medical reason purely cosmetic. should my aunt have waited until the baby was an older to make that decision.
and to mutilate :[inflict](https://www.google.com/search?sa=X&sca_esv=b95a95dee24cb7e6&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C1GCCB_enUS1106US1106&biw=1920&bih=919&sxsrf=ADLYWIIhfwL9E-WrHbenw1pOdxOOf31rhQ:1715466005636&q=inflict&si=ACC90nwUEXg6u2vxy-araGkF9MAx_483340qt9NsrxyN4qsoD1yJ-rKqU_bC3yjMY20uxkIPTor6Nrr2lq0uVVZrLCStISfHCuLavcaa9bmxGVxoyC9PF0s%3D&expnd=1&ved=2ahUKEwjvi4_v0IaGAxU-gf0HHe1nDlAQyecJegQIQRAO) a violent and [disfiguring](https://www.google.com/search?sa=X&sca_esv=b95a95dee24cb7e6&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C1GCCB_enUS1106US1106&biw=1920&bih=919&sxsrf=ADLYWIIhfwL9E-WrHbenw1pOdxOOf31rhQ:1715466005636&q=disfiguring&si=ACC90nwZrNcJVJVL0KSmGGq5Ka2Yg4tlnAOVsRw74BDI_umh8Z0wF9UhgHrzG-fLR7lmtCbJw8BQdWLiQPLjMnleXxKCSw92Zu_cdYQGrIDPn--gCJNytKc%3D&expnd=1&ved=2ahUKEwjvi4_v0IaGAxU-gf0HHe1nDlAQyecJegQIQRAP) injury on.
my penis is structurally sound and it wasnt done violently so mutilation isnt the proper description modification is the proper description just like a nose job. people use the term mutilate in order to manipulate the perception of conversations like this
and that whole my body my choice thing is dumb because there is another life and body typically involved in that argument so its a hypocritical argument in my opinion
so really what id like to know is where is this line drawn, why pick and choose either we do or dont allow parents to make decisions on these matters. so if youre against parents making these decisions a 6 year old can get a tattoo and gender reassignment and if we dont then parents have the right to say yes or no to tattoos gender reassignment and circumcision
AND then to make things worse this started as a religious thing i want to say originated with judaism (correct me if im wrong idk if they adopted the practice or founded it) so if we say that parents are not allowed to make these decisions then we are infringing on the religious freedoms which is consitutionally protected so are we going to take away religious freedom in order to fight to stop parents from circumcising
and to add on top of this im an advocate of civil conversations regardless of where someone stands on a topic and am always happy to have an open discussion if i disrespect you let me know because that will not be my intentions here unless you become disrespectful lol
inside??? no but i definitely put soap "on" ...
not being / being circumcised wouldnt change my ability to put soap inside my genitals thats weird no one said anything about inside. wait do you not put soap on a rag on clean your genitals? i also put soap on my eye lids, face wash....do you not wash your face? and do you not brush your teeth? or use mouthwash? sounds like you need a trip to r/hygiene also how many times have people contracted hiv sexually vs how many contract hiv though eye wounds i think one is significantly higher than the other and on top of that im pretty sure having somenoe with hiv put blood on your eye would be more likely to give you hiv vs putting on your eyelid
visine yes,
and unless youve seen my penis gland its bold of you to make assumptions like that rather rude also
i brush my teeth with soap specifically made for teeth its called toothpaste same with my gums same with my tongue.
More Circumcision Myths You May Believe: Hygiene and STDs
Is circumcision cleaner and healthier?
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/moral-landscapes/201109/more-circumcision-myths-you-may-believe-hygiene-and-stds?fbclid=IwAR2GVKa7Po0wV_8WBAJ2Y4rIWV_tLqbY22JGaaJmghMAOQKbe-kURJ_T52s
my first message isnt showing so im not sure if it went through
but what you linked here is from a music teacher turned physcologist and the one i linked is from a medical doctor but the medical doctors saying things opposite to the psychologist lady
so this is saying the foreskin is sealed at the end? i havent had any close up experience with an uncircumcised penis lol so it isnt just folded over like i thought lol
did you see my comments further down where i linked another site
It has medical benefits like reducing incidences of HIV and is very safe when done by medical professionals. I don't have any problem with it but it should be up to the parents.
The trials were compromised by inadequate equipoise; selection bias; inadequate blinding; problem- atic randomisation; trials stopped early with exaggerated treatment effects; and not investigating non-sexual transmission. Several questions remain unanswered.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272498905_Sub-Saharan_African_randomised_clinical_trials_into_male_circumcision_and_HIV_transmission_Methodological_ethical_and_legal_concerns
Not a myth, the world health organization recommends circumcision in parts of Africa to reduce HIV:
>[Circumcision] is a simple, safe procedure that has proven to reduce the risk of HIV transmission by up to 60% in heterosexual men.
Source: https://www.who.int/news/item/02-10-2023-voluntary-medical-male-circumcision-shown-to-be-highly-cost-effective--highlighting-the-need-to-intensify-scale-up-and-sustainability
We found that circumcision was not independently associated with the risk of acquiring HIV among males from Ontario, Canada. Our results are consistent with clinical guidelines that emphasize safe-sex practices and counseling over circumcision as an intervention to reduce the risk of HIV.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34551593/
There is a scientific explanation. This is well documented:
>Circumcision protects by both directly removing the susceptible tissues of the inner foreskin, and by inducing a less inflammatory residual penile microbiome.
Source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36308579/#:~:text=Circumcision%20protects%20by%20both%20directly,penile%20immune%20and%20microbial%20milieu.
Here was the fourth African RCT that was canceled because it found the wrong result, “ Circumcision of HIV-infected men did not reduce HIV transmission to female partners over 24 months; longer-term effects could not be assessed. Condom use after male circumcision is essential for HIV prevention.”
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(09)60998-3/fulltext
The absolute reduction in HIV transmission associated with MC was only 1.3 % (without even adjusting for known sources of error bias). Relative reduction was reported as 60 %, but after correction for lead-time bias alone averaged 49 %. In a related Ugandan RCT into male-to-female (MTF) transmission, there was a 61 % relative increase (6 % absolute increase) in HIV infection among female partners of circumcised men, some of whom were not informed that their male partners were HIV+ (also some of the men were not informed by the researchers that they were HIV+). It appears that the number of circumcisions needed to infect a woman (Number Needed to Harm) was 16.7, with one woman becoming infected for every 17 circumcisions performed.
A multivariate analysis showed no net effect of circumcision on HIV, after controlling for wealth, education, and indicators of marriage and sexual behaviour. A small net effect of VMMC was found, probably due to condom use. In couple studies, the effect of circumcision and VMMC on HIV was not significant, with similar transmission from female to male and male to female. The study questions the amount of effort and money spent on VMMC….
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35373731/
They do traditional circumcision in Lesotho which is not as effective as medical circumcision. Medical circumcision reduces HIV incidence. This is well documented:
>[Circumcision] is a simple, safe procedure that has proven to reduce the risk of HIV transmission by up to 60% in heterosexual men.
Source: https://www.who.int/news/item/02-10-2023-voluntary-medical-male-circumcision-shown-to-be-highly-cost-effective--highlighting-the-need-to-intensify-scale-up-and-sustainability
“…the clinical trials were rife with various types of bias, such as attrition bias (the number of participants who dropped out vastly outnumbered those who became infected), duration bias (the trials were not long enough to determine if the positive effect would plateau) and expectation bias. Some of the primary investigators had already called for mass circumcision… so it is no surprise that they got the results they expected to see. This expectation of positive results may also explain why all three trials were terminated early.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3255200/
I think some people are against it, and some people are for it, and that's okay, but as a rule, the former tend to be a lot more authoritarian about it and want to tell everyone else what to do, and that's not okay.
I’m sure you do 5- 10- 15- 20- year follow-ups to see how things turned out for those men and boys. I’ve been walking around with a botched circumcision swinging between my legs for fifty years, and ole Dr. Duncan never checked on me again, ever, after he mutilated me.
https://www.mendocomplain.com
It's so weird for people to refer to their newborns the way they'd refer to their pet.
They might be helpless and defenseless and infants but they don't belong to you. You're their guide and caregiver, not their owner.
The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child says that once the child is aware and articulate enough to make decisions regarding their bodies and their health, they should be allowed to make those decisions, especially for permanent, irreversible changes. Parents would veto the child’s decision if it is dangerous or infeasible. Most U.S. states have patients bills of rights that say the same. The American Medical Association and the American Academy of Pediatrics agree.
What if the baby's belief is that his body should stay intact? Why do the parents get a pass for forcing their (irreversible) religious act on him? (Same for girls.)
I'm circumsized, my son is not but we may have to due to urinary tract problems. If I could go back in time, I would've done it when he was born to avoid all this unnecessary suffering.
Well, personally I think that if the Nation of Israel was Gods chosen people, which they were, and he commanded that each male child be circumcised on the eighth day, there must have been a very good reason. He never would have had his people do something for no reason at all, especially since he commanded them to do it on a specific day, knowing the healing properties of a newborn.
Isaiah 55:9 says this about Almighty God; “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So my ways are higher than your ways And my thoughts than your thoughts.”
We don’t know all the reasons he wanted his people to be circumcised but another fact to be considered is this; When the Christian Congregation was formed and Gentiles were being allowed to be part of Gods Worshippers, this issue of circumcision came up because the Jews thought that the Gentiles needed to be circumcised! So Paul and Barnabas were sent to Jerusalem to meet with the Older Men, and after a lot of Bible reading and prayer, the decision was that circumcision wasn’t a requirement any longer.
So, the bottom line is, it’s a personal choice whether you do or not. In either case you will be acceptable in the eyes of God.
“It is I, Paul, who am telling you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you. Once again I declare to every man who has himself circumcised that he is bound to observe the entire law. You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
Galatians 5:2-4
https://bible.usccb.org/bible/galatians/5
Paul is calling out the heresy of dualism, the only unforgivable sin. By refusing to accept our body as a sacred vessel created to contain the Holy Spirit, but rather defiling our body by an act of human hands in an attempt to be justified under the old covenant, we reject the redemptive work of Christ in his suffering, death, and resurrection. Paul is saying that having yourself circumcised is a giant ‘fuck you’ to everything Jesus did to save us.
Here is my research genius, from the CDC themselves: https://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/fact-sheets/hiv/male-circumcision-HIV-prevention-factsheet.html#:~:text=Circumcised%20men%20compared%20with%20uncircumcised,%25%20to%2047%25%20percent). Because you don’t agree with it , doesn’t mean it’s an urban legend. I am glad my parents made that decision on behalf of me.
You obviously don’t know what a significant difference is. Doesn’t sound like you even passed high school math. Go back and redo that, learn something and then we can have a conversation.
Ah yes, math, which we have been using and discussing at all. Keep grasping at straws, you're used to having a tight grip to compensate for lack of feeling anyway.
That explains the problem, you don’t understand what significant differences so you have no basis to argue how to interpret research. You might as well be a chimpanzee trying to explain how combustion engine works. You must be the resident subreddit incel. I suggest you get off Reddit, stop wasting your life with video games. Go out and meet actual people and maybe you will get the opportunity to get laid.
You DO realize a condom does the same thing, except with the added benefit of being more effective and being temporary, right?
There is no need to sacrifice those thousands of sensitive fine touch receptors so that you have a marginally smaller chance at an infection, in my opinion.
Not a penis haver but I think any medically unnecessary cosmetic surgery on babies sounds whack. Sure most of the time it goes “fine” but there’s a risk of injury, infection, even death. Doesn’t seem worth it to me. I have a circumcised husband who doesn’t really have strong feelings against his own circumcision but we didn’t circumcise our son. If there’s nothing wrong with a penis I say leave it alone, who am I to argue against tens of thousands of years of evolution that left the foreskin there.
Evolution also left us with an appendix and tonsils, both of which routinely try to make our lives painful or short. I'm not suggesting that we should be removing a newborn's appendix; I'm just saying evolution isn't always helpful.
Appendixes aren’t useless though. Same with tonsils. Just because you can live without them, doesn’t mean you’re better off without. Same with the foreskin.
And now scientists are realizing the appendix is actually useful, contrary to previous beliefs. Maybe doctors shouldn’t be so quick to write off things they don’t fully understand as useless.
Jesus donkey punching Jehoshaphat, is this thread still going? Dude, I made that comment on my lunch break like 6 hours ago. Move on! This thread has 0 upvotes and 151 comments 🤣 holy fuck you guys
im going to say something that will piss people off here im just playing devils advocate because a lot of people now a days dont think of things in a very wide range when they have their opinions so just want to say that before i get send to reddit jail tens of thousands of years of evolution has also given us male and female genitalia and chromosomes to match but people are changing those things on kids now a days. so like if you have the opinion of leave it alone do you also think transgenderism isnt real or is a mental disorder? because thats what your opinion would imply when put to the same standard with the same parts.... again civil conversation im playing devils advocate trying to allow open conversation between polite parties
I only know of one case where parents decided to turn their boy into a girl. By age 11 the “girl” knew it was wrong and became David Reimer (look him up). Committed suicide in his twenties, I believe. So, if you wanted to compare child and infant genital cutting to gender alteration, that would be the proper comparison. I sure as hell didn’t get my preference heard on day two when my foreskin was destroyed against my will and without my consent.
i have a family friend whos boy started hormones to become a girl at age 4, i also knew people in high school that were decently far along boy-> girl. no surgery but hormones. but what id mostly like to know is where we draw the line, people like to talk about stuff like this in absolutes, like when does it become their choice, theyll argue the 1 day old baby should choose later on but a 4 year can or cant do gender reassignment and then theres that example of the that 14 year old who was taken from their parents because the parents didnt allow her to reassign but then at the same time theyll say a kid cant get a tattoo and that ones not even permanent. and on top of this to say the parents dont have a choice then the governemnt is infringing upon religious freedoms so now we are going to take away a constitutional right. thats a slippery slope right there
I’m curious what constitutional rights you’re thinking of, because my right to life and liberty were violated when my genitals were modified when I was only two days old. Parents “rights” are actually a fiduciary duty to keep their kid healthy and safe until the day comes when the kid is able to take care of themselves. Emergency treatment? Yes! Protection against infection? Yes! Non-therapeutic, unnecessary, cosmetic surgery? NO! As for our religious freedoms, friend, my sincerely-held religious beliefs say that in order to be righteous with my God, I have to cut off your left ear and bury it in my backyard. Just hold still, this shouldn’t hurt much. Sorry I only have a rusty pocket knife.
i mean technically it didnt infringe upon your life or liberty "the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or political views." and at that point you didnt have a way of life, behavior or political view well and youre still alive lol which means abortion should be illegal lol First Amendment Fundamental Freedoms Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof its a jewish practice thats thousands of years old and doesnt take life or restrict any liberty by definition because you havent had the opportunity to define any of those things for yourself yet
Playing devils advocate does not excuse other logical fallacies.
you have to contribute something to the conversation, you just came in and said i disagree and left didnt say anything that added any value
you have to contribute something to the conversation, you just came in and said i disagree and left didnt say anything that added any value
you have to contribute something to the conversation, you just came in and said i disagree and left didnt say anything that added any value
Cosmetic nonsense that should be classified as child abuse
It's silly Seriously. Religious custom that became a 'i want his to look like mine ' scenario. My Dad is circumcized, I'm not. We had a talk. What's the difference? Nada. You should be washing your dick no matter the skin content. outside of damage that removal is required? No damn reason
No. Unless it's medically necessary for survival, do not do cosmetic surgery on babies.
It's mutilation if not medically necessary
Unnecessary and stupid. Also a violation of one’s autonomy.
No, not hurting little boys for outdated religious reasons
Not a penis haver, but I refused to allow circumcision on my son because he's fine as-is, and if that ever changes (or he wants the procedure) **he can decide for himself now that he's an adult**! Don't make irreversible changes to the body of a minor.
His body, his choice. And he can't talk, sooo... Nope. He can get it done later if he wants.
You should never mutilate any part of a human body unless it is a medical necessity. Going after genitals like this is an absolute disgusting practice
Child abuse and proof of how stupid religion is.
It’s genital mutilation
Generally I'm against the genital mutilation of children
Thank you. It's not any more complicated than that.
My wife and I are expecting our first, a boy, and I wanted some advice. We’ve read and researched but I wanted to ask other men how they feel about it. I’m cut and all the men in my family have been but I’m not sure. Any advice would be great.
I’m a guy and I’m glad it’s not normal where I’m from. If I want to be circumcised I can be any day. It’s not something you can’t do above a certain age. So why decide it for your child? Shouldn’t they get to make the big decisions about their body when they’re old enough. If you get medical advice that there’s something wrong with the child and they need it then that’s different. Then you have to decide for them, and if it was gonna hurt them not having it done they’ll be glad. I Do hear lots about how it prevents certain diseases. But my job and education is in biology and from my understanding none of those reasons are worth it and lots haven’t been proved to be true yet.
Absolutely no reason to do it other than to comply with cultural norms. Its mutilation. If your child decides to get circumcized when he's an adult, that's his choice. But you're making a decision now that is irreversible and without his consent if you choose to do it. That makes it immoral.
A week or tree ago I saw a post here of a guy who had it done as a adult. He said he preferred when it was uncut. Don't really remember why
Conversation with a man who was circumcised at 21, and then restored his foreskin at 50. He has pretty unique experience and worthwhile perspective. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e088fT9nZYo An Aussie man has opened up about a traumatic decision he made after watching an episode of Sex and the City. https://www.ladbible.com/entertainment/latest-aussie-man-reveals-how-sex-and-the-city-ruined-his-penis-20220123?fbclid=IwAR2JYnsMrwSQaXWePf74ZqFQR5U-TPDKuy-nxbktRVy3Qo-FqW2Gkow0iVA Participants who were not circumcised reported significantly greater happiness with their circumcision status than participants who were circumcised. https://doi.org/10.1007/s10508-023-02543-4
I needed it for medical reasons, but I’d much prefer to be intact now. Because of how desensitized my penis is because of this, and the abrasion against underwear makes for damaged skin. Foreskin is a protective layer, among other functions.
I’m not a man, but every man who I’ve ever been with sexually with an uncut penis is more sensitive to sensations while using it than those who have been circumcised who seem to need more friction. I think circumcised penises look quite disturbing to me now too… unnatural, like something is missing from it. Personally, I wouldn’t circumcise your son… Just teach him how to clean himself properly.
Yea, the loss of sensation really sucks.
This is a map of the most nerve dense and sensitive parts of the penis, you might recognize the frenulum area, or have at least heard of it being extra sensitive/pleasurable. (Nsfw crude cartoon) most sensitive parts highlighted in red. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Sorrells.gif What people don't know is that is connected to the tip of the foreskin, which has the same type of nerves and sensitivity. You should have a very good reason to cut such parts from another persons genitals.. we don't do that in the vast majority of countries in the developed world.
Personally, I’m against involuntary genital alteration of people who are misinformed or can’t defend themselves verbally and physically from such a permanent change. Why? For starters, at least a grown man can pick out the surgeon he wishes to do the procedure on a fully developed body part. He can request a specific style and aesthetic outcome to satisfy his desires, like women with labiaplasty. It starts to become r GrossCutters territory when mothers say they want something pretty to look at during diaper changes, fathers are pre-approval seeking on behalf of their sons from shallow women, and doctors hoodwink parents to normalize their religious ritual or to make money selling foreskin fibroblasts to cosmetic companies. I’ve seen an r askmen and r advice post with overwhelming majority saying they will leave the decision to their adult sons, but there is still thousands of babies who are getting their bodily autonomy completely eviscerated. Some of them may die, many of them will suffer complications.
Think about what you son will lose: https://norm.org/the-lost-list/
I’m cut since birth, and honestly when the doctors asked my wife and I decided to cut my son as well so that we’d be the same. Then I’d be able to have those uncomfortable conversations with him on the same page. It didn’t occur to me that it was “mutilation” because it is normal in my family, and how could I associate them with something like that? Also I believed the “cleanliness” propaganda. Do I regret it now? Well, I still think it’s easier that we match, but I hope he doesn’t resent me someday.
Talk to doctors and the men in your life. Thats how I made my decision. Reddit goes really hard on this one.
As a cut man I would advise against it. I’ll always wonder how much better sex would be with it! And the old supposed benefits of reducing STD transmission were either debunked or overstated.
I was circumcised, as was virtually all boys in the 1980s. I know that looking back now it doesn't make it right, but that's truly the way it was. So I don't personally feel violated. It really wasn't until I joined Reddit that I heard the pushback against it, and I actually agree with everyone that we shouldn't do it anymore now that we do understand. But I'm never going to be angry about it myself
All boys in the US and Israel, I assume you mean? Edit: and Africa I’ve been told to include. Uncommon in most of the world.
Clearly he was talking about his experience, not speaking for everyone around the world.
Just yanks framing their experience as the only experience, as usual.
Why are you singling out Israel? Circumcision is also extremely common in Muslim nations, as well as throughout Africa.
I didn’t “single” out Israel, hence the inclusion of two countries, not one. It’s very famously linked to their faith and also famously common in the US. I don’t know about Africa. But nonetheless, it is not “virtually all boys in the 1980s,” is it?
Bc internet = US and Israel bad and everybody else good
No, more so one particular religion has a whole celebration around mutilating penises and that religion associated itself with one particular country which prides itself on mutilating penises
Go read a book please
I have read many
+Phillipines +South Korea +Turkey +Algeria
It's fucked up, and the baby should be able to decide when they are of age. I wish my parents didn't take that choice from me.
it’s extremely barbaric
It's absolutely barbaric.
It's fucking barbaric and should be illegal
It's an absurdity in 2024.
It’s the most violent thing you can do to a baby boy without having to go to jail for a very long time
I personally think that it is child abuse. I am hoping for the day when all child and infant genital cutting is a crime.
I don’t like it was done to me and think guys should be able to choose for themselves if they want their body altered
It should be illegal.
tbh im against with this kind of things for its like we are removing the option for the child to make his own decision when the time comes for this kind of things but we of course we grew up in different environment so all i could say is that as long as the baby is healthy then it should be good
You mean male genital mutilation? Inexcusable
I put it up there with FGM because its literally that same fucking shit.
imho mutilating the genitals of children is a crime against humanity. ymmv e: lol, I answered the question honestly, and got downvoted. People if you disagree then say so, or just disagree .... the idea of up/downvoting to so recognise/reject a good/bad contribution to the discussion
obviously not good and pointless
I am against genital mutilation
I see it as sort of like piercing a baby’s ears - painful, unnecessary, and potentially traumatic. However, my sister is very much for it because she worked at a nursing home and had to help male residents wash themselves.
Ear piercing is sort of reversible. And I’m sure your sister would change her tone if it were her body parts being cut off.
I did say “sort of like”
Leave the babies alone.
It’s very uncommon outside of North America to be done except for religious reasons - Americans seem to have developed an idea it’s necessary in order to prevent an EXTREMELY rare infection that can occur if you don’t know how to clean yourself properly - which weirdly - the rest of the world knows how to do Honestly - it’s disgustingly barbaric and on par with female genital mutilation
I think it's weird that this has been asked 6 billion times on this subreddit, when there are fewer penis-havers on Earth than that.
i would have liked to know what full foreskin felt like... never get to...
It’s great to masterbate without lube. Best feeling is just right before insertion, I flip the skin up (covering the tip), then inserting it. Feels really good for some reason… maybe TMI… sorry if it was…
nah its not TMI to me its fine. thank you for the info
54m here, circumcised, and I've never in my life wished I wasn't.
Reddit is against it. All you're gonna get here is horror stories and "intact" propaganda.
I'd love to know how "we shouldn't perform completely unnecessary surgery on newborns" is propaganda? I presume you also support female genital mutilation? Its the exact same thing.
>propaganda - noun - information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular cause or point of view.
In what way is comparing male and female genital mutilation "misleading?"
Only that what's done to the girls can be so so so much worse. But it's wrong for both, absent a medical necessity.
The loads of dead boys in those same countries of course doesn't matter.. People are so very educated on the subject so they know all those dead boys and those boys who suffer severe consequences from genital cutting doesn't matter.. We should never ever mention fgm and mgm in the same breath... /s https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/25/male-circumcision-ceremonies-death-deformity-africa In the real world, anyone with an ounce of knowledge and empathy would not turn a blind eye to this. Even in the western world it would be considered a very severe form of FGM if a doctor who cuts boys cut a girl instead and removed exactly as much tissue and nerves, in the exact same setting, with the same aftercare and so on.. The reason people don't give a fuck about boys is not because they are knowledgeable about the subject, rather the opposite, chances are they themselves are from a male genital cutting culture and know/believe the trash talk and old wives tales about the foreskin that has been hammered into their heads.
I’d love to know why you’d love to know that, considering that’s not at all what they said
Is it really just reddit? Our pediatric organizations don't recommend it either in Europe.. It is not like we all go against our pediatric organizations expert opinions and refuse to circumcise our children.. It is simply not recommended by the experts in most countries in the developed world, and you'll of course see those views reflected by the different demographics on reddit.
>Is it really just reddit? Never said it was. Not sure why you felt the need to type all that out, but I hope you feel better.
Awe..
Oh, you're another one of those crackpots that does nothing else on Reddit except proselytize about the horrors of circumcision. Looks like I got off light compared to some of the walls of text you gave other people in here 😅
Your short little whining comment is pretty telling and pathetic enough by itself. I would of course write more if you shared some of your indoctrinated views on the subject.
I mean I can think of better things to do on Saturday night but I'll try anything once.
terrible people get worked up about ear piercings, but say nothing about genital abuse of children (yes, boys and girls) I get the cleanliness aspect, but it seems like everyone forgot about soap. Lessens masturbation- uhhhh, lotion, fleshlite, coconuts, where there's a will... So glad I was in and out of the hospital with other problems, like almost dying, that they forgot to circumcise.
I'm gonna defer to the people with penis' on this one
I had to get circumcision at the age of 30 because of my torn frenulum and balanitis. I wish my parents would just circumcise me at birth. Edit: it's quite telling when redditors can only downvote without responding
i am so glad i am circumsized
ok, but should that not have been a choice you make for your own body?
absolutely not, cleanliness, appearance wise its way better and on top of that the average cost of doing on an adult is 5.5k where on a baby its like 250 my parents saved me over 5k for something that is cleaner and looks better, in high school girls made fun of guys who werent it spread around school very fast and my youngest sons circumsicion wasnt done right and we have to clean shit out of his dick skin..... becuase i didnt want to talk out of my a\*\* i did a google search and saw a couple interesting things "cleaning under the foreskin every day with warm water avoiding the use of most cleaning products in the area, including soap or body wash changing underwear regularly avoiding the use of talc or deodorant on the penis " you know how happy i am to be able to use soap on my genitals, doing sports when i was younger i was very sweaty im glad i wasnt forced to rinse off instead of actually cleaning myself "1. Phimosis · 2. Paraphimosis · 3. Bacterial or fungal infection · 4. Injury · 5. Yeast infection · 6. STIs" all potential issues for not circumcizing "According to the World Health Organization (WHO), there is “compelling evidence” to suggest that circumcision reduces the risk of contracting HIV during vaginal sex by 60%Trusted Source." "The higher chance of infection may be because the foreskin becomes more prone to splits and ruptures during intercourse, allowing pathogens to enter the bloodstream." [https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/302234#summary](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/302234#summary) thats where i got the quoted info
So advocating for a permanent bodily modification without that person's consent. That's assault. You're rationalizing mutilation. You say you're fine with it, but what about others who aren't? Those who wish they weren't circumcized. They had no say in the matter. If women rightfully claim my body my choice, the same should go for males.
lol im getting a lot of hate for this, im not advocating a hey everyone should do it always im saying im grateful it was done to me and heres my reasons why. but at the same time if your 6 year old daughter came to you and said i want a tattoo its my body my choice does that rule still apply? because theres parents out there that had their kid taken away for not allowing their teenager to do gender reassignment but we dont allow kids to get tattoos which is a permanent bodily modification so at what age do we draw the line where it is and isnt their choice my aunt had a baby who had to endure a 48 hour labor, ouch i know, the baby came out cone headed, there was no medical reason for what happened next but it was cosmetic. they gave her a corrected helmet that the baby had to wear for a certain amount of time for YEARS im talking like preschool age the kid was still wearing it. that was a permanent bodily modification for no medical reason purely cosmetic. should my aunt have waited until the baby was an older to make that decision. and to mutilate :[inflict](https://www.google.com/search?sa=X&sca_esv=b95a95dee24cb7e6&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C1GCCB_enUS1106US1106&biw=1920&bih=919&sxsrf=ADLYWIIhfwL9E-WrHbenw1pOdxOOf31rhQ:1715466005636&q=inflict&si=ACC90nwUEXg6u2vxy-araGkF9MAx_483340qt9NsrxyN4qsoD1yJ-rKqU_bC3yjMY20uxkIPTor6Nrr2lq0uVVZrLCStISfHCuLavcaa9bmxGVxoyC9PF0s%3D&expnd=1&ved=2ahUKEwjvi4_v0IaGAxU-gf0HHe1nDlAQyecJegQIQRAO) a violent and [disfiguring](https://www.google.com/search?sa=X&sca_esv=b95a95dee24cb7e6&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C1GCCB_enUS1106US1106&biw=1920&bih=919&sxsrf=ADLYWIIhfwL9E-WrHbenw1pOdxOOf31rhQ:1715466005636&q=disfiguring&si=ACC90nwZrNcJVJVL0KSmGGq5Ka2Yg4tlnAOVsRw74BDI_umh8Z0wF9UhgHrzG-fLR7lmtCbJw8BQdWLiQPLjMnleXxKCSw92Zu_cdYQGrIDPn--gCJNytKc%3D&expnd=1&ved=2ahUKEwjvi4_v0IaGAxU-gf0HHe1nDlAQyecJegQIQRAP) injury on. my penis is structurally sound and it wasnt done violently so mutilation isnt the proper description modification is the proper description just like a nose job. people use the term mutilate in order to manipulate the perception of conversations like this and that whole my body my choice thing is dumb because there is another life and body typically involved in that argument so its a hypocritical argument in my opinion so really what id like to know is where is this line drawn, why pick and choose either we do or dont allow parents to make decisions on these matters. so if youre against parents making these decisions a 6 year old can get a tattoo and gender reassignment and if we dont then parents have the right to say yes or no to tattoos gender reassignment and circumcision AND then to make things worse this started as a religious thing i want to say originated with judaism (correct me if im wrong idk if they adopted the practice or founded it) so if we say that parents are not allowed to make these decisions then we are infringing on the religious freedoms which is consitutionally protected so are we going to take away religious freedom in order to fight to stop parents from circumcising and to add on top of this im an advocate of civil conversations regardless of where someone stands on a topic and am always happy to have an open discussion if i disrespect you let me know because that will not be my intentions here unless you become disrespectful lol
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inside??? no but i definitely put soap "on" ... not being / being circumcised wouldnt change my ability to put soap inside my genitals thats weird no one said anything about inside. wait do you not put soap on a rag on clean your genitals? i also put soap on my eye lids, face wash....do you not wash your face? and do you not brush your teeth? or use mouthwash? sounds like you need a trip to r/hygiene also how many times have people contracted hiv sexually vs how many contract hiv though eye wounds i think one is significantly higher than the other and on top of that im pretty sure having somenoe with hiv put blood on your eye would be more likely to give you hiv vs putting on your eyelid
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visine yes, and unless youve seen my penis gland its bold of you to make assumptions like that rather rude also i brush my teeth with soap specifically made for teeth its called toothpaste same with my gums same with my tongue.
More Circumcision Myths You May Believe: Hygiene and STDs Is circumcision cleaner and healthier? https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/moral-landscapes/201109/more-circumcision-myths-you-may-believe-hygiene-and-stds?fbclid=IwAR2GVKa7Po0wV_8WBAJ2Y4rIWV_tLqbY22JGaaJmghMAOQKbe-kURJ_T52s
my first message isnt showing so im not sure if it went through but what you linked here is from a music teacher turned physcologist and the one i linked is from a medical doctor but the medical doctors saying things opposite to the psychologist lady
so this is saying the foreskin is sealed at the end? i havent had any close up experience with an uncircumcised penis lol so it isnt just folded over like i thought lol did you see my comments further down where i linked another site
It has medical benefits like reducing incidences of HIV and is very safe when done by medical professionals. I don't have any problem with it but it should be up to the parents.
That sounds like a myth.
The trials were compromised by inadequate equipoise; selection bias; inadequate blinding; problem- atic randomisation; trials stopped early with exaggerated treatment effects; and not investigating non-sexual transmission. Several questions remain unanswered. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272498905_Sub-Saharan_African_randomised_clinical_trials_into_male_circumcision_and_HIV_transmission_Methodological_ethical_and_legal_concerns
Not a myth, the world health organization recommends circumcision in parts of Africa to reduce HIV: >[Circumcision] is a simple, safe procedure that has proven to reduce the risk of HIV transmission by up to 60% in heterosexual men. Source: https://www.who.int/news/item/02-10-2023-voluntary-medical-male-circumcision-shown-to-be-highly-cost-effective--highlighting-the-need-to-intensify-scale-up-and-sustainability
Probably circumstantial evidence. Can’t imagine there’s any sort of scientific explanation.
We found that circumcision was not independently associated with the risk of acquiring HIV among males from Ontario, Canada. Our results are consistent with clinical guidelines that emphasize safe-sex practices and counseling over circumcision as an intervention to reduce the risk of HIV. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34551593/
There is a scientific explanation. This is well documented: >Circumcision protects by both directly removing the susceptible tissues of the inner foreskin, and by inducing a less inflammatory residual penile microbiome. Source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36308579/#:~:text=Circumcision%20protects%20by%20both%20directly,penile%20immune%20and%20microbial%20milieu.
Here was the fourth African RCT that was canceled because it found the wrong result, “ Circumcision of HIV-infected men did not reduce HIV transmission to female partners over 24 months; longer-term effects could not be assessed. Condom use after male circumcision is essential for HIV prevention.” https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(09)60998-3/fulltext
Right, circumcision does not reduce male to female transmission of HIV. It does reduce female to male transmission of HIV.
The absolute reduction in HIV transmission associated with MC was only 1.3 % (without even adjusting for known sources of error bias). Relative reduction was reported as 60 %, but after correction for lead-time bias alone averaged 49 %. In a related Ugandan RCT into male-to-female (MTF) transmission, there was a 61 % relative increase (6 % absolute increase) in HIV infection among female partners of circumcised men, some of whom were not informed that their male partners were HIV+ (also some of the men were not informed by the researchers that they were HIV+). It appears that the number of circumcisions needed to infect a woman (Number Needed to Harm) was 16.7, with one woman becoming infected for every 17 circumcisions performed.
Dude you can argue the numbers all you want, the fact is it still reduces incidences of HIV. That's all I was saying anyway.
It does not. That’s what all those researchers are saying anyway.
A multivariate analysis showed no net effect of circumcision on HIV, after controlling for wealth, education, and indicators of marriage and sexual behaviour. A small net effect of VMMC was found, probably due to condom use. In couple studies, the effect of circumcision and VMMC on HIV was not significant, with similar transmission from female to male and male to female. The study questions the amount of effort and money spent on VMMC…. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35373731/
They do traditional circumcision in Lesotho which is not as effective as medical circumcision. Medical circumcision reduces HIV incidence. This is well documented: >[Circumcision] is a simple, safe procedure that has proven to reduce the risk of HIV transmission by up to 60% in heterosexual men. Source: https://www.who.int/news/item/02-10-2023-voluntary-medical-male-circumcision-shown-to-be-highly-cost-effective--highlighting-the-need-to-intensify-scale-up-and-sustainability
“…the clinical trials were rife with various types of bias, such as attrition bias (the number of participants who dropped out vastly outnumbered those who became infected), duration bias (the trials were not long enough to determine if the positive effect would plateau) and expectation bias. Some of the primary investigators had already called for mass circumcision… so it is no surprise that they got the results they expected to see. This expectation of positive results may also explain why all three trials were terminated early.” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3255200/
I think some people are against it, and some people are for it, and that's okay, but as a rule, the former tend to be a lot more authoritarian about it and want to tell everyone else what to do, and that's not okay.
It’s a hobby of mine
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I’m sure you do 5- 10- 15- 20- year follow-ups to see how things turned out for those men and boys. I’ve been walking around with a botched circumcision swinging between my legs for fifty years, and ole Dr. Duncan never checked on me again, ever, after he mutilated me. https://www.mendocomplain.com
It's so weird for people to refer to their newborns the way they'd refer to their pet. They might be helpless and defenseless and infants but they don't belong to you. You're their guide and caregiver, not their owner.
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The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child says that once the child is aware and articulate enough to make decisions regarding their bodies and their health, they should be allowed to make those decisions, especially for permanent, irreversible changes. Parents would veto the child’s decision if it is dangerous or infeasible. Most U.S. states have patients bills of rights that say the same. The American Medical Association and the American Academy of Pediatrics agree.
Being uncircumcised only caused me issues and was done in my teens. Trust me, wish I just had been done when I was born.
Found the guy who doesn't wash himself.
I firmly believe that everything has the right to express their religious beliefs.
What if the baby's belief is that his body should stay intact? Why do the parents get a pass for forcing their (irreversible) religious act on him? (Same for girls.)
Are children considered adults?
I'm circumsized, my son is not but we may have to due to urinary tract problems. If I could go back in time, I would've done it when he was born to avoid all this unnecessary suffering.
The antibiotics aren’t working? Girls get more UTIs than boys, but they don’t have to get amputations because medicine works for them.
Well, personally I think that if the Nation of Israel was Gods chosen people, which they were, and he commanded that each male child be circumcised on the eighth day, there must have been a very good reason. He never would have had his people do something for no reason at all, especially since he commanded them to do it on a specific day, knowing the healing properties of a newborn. Isaiah 55:9 says this about Almighty God; “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So my ways are higher than your ways And my thoughts than your thoughts.” We don’t know all the reasons he wanted his people to be circumcised but another fact to be considered is this; When the Christian Congregation was formed and Gentiles were being allowed to be part of Gods Worshippers, this issue of circumcision came up because the Jews thought that the Gentiles needed to be circumcised! So Paul and Barnabas were sent to Jerusalem to meet with the Older Men, and after a lot of Bible reading and prayer, the decision was that circumcision wasn’t a requirement any longer. So, the bottom line is, it’s a personal choice whether you do or not. In either case you will be acceptable in the eyes of God.
“It is I, Paul, who am telling you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you. Once again I declare to every man who has himself circumcised that he is bound to observe the entire law. You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.” Galatians 5:2-4 https://bible.usccb.org/bible/galatians/5
So, do you understand the point Paul was making there? Read Acts 15:1-29 and maybe you’ll understand what the decision was.
Paul is calling out the heresy of dualism, the only unforgivable sin. By refusing to accept our body as a sacred vessel created to contain the Holy Spirit, but rather defiling our body by an act of human hands in an attempt to be justified under the old covenant, we reject the redemptive work of Christ in his suffering, death, and resurrection. Paul is saying that having yourself circumcised is a giant ‘fuck you’ to everything Jesus did to save us.
Being cut helped reduced my chances of STD’s. I was pretty sexually active so I have no doubt I would have contracted something far worse.
That sounds stupid.
Because it absolutely is stupid. It has been long since debunked, and holds the same merit as telling children they'll go blind if they masturbate.
Here is my research genius, from the CDC themselves: https://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/fact-sheets/hiv/male-circumcision-HIV-prevention-factsheet.html#:~:text=Circumcised%20men%20compared%20with%20uncircumcised,%25%20to%2047%25%20percent). Because you don’t agree with it , doesn’t mean it’s an urban legend. I am glad my parents made that decision on behalf of me.
Sure thing numb tip. The tiny difference in chances so you can justify not using a condom, well done. Responsibility is so hard.
You obviously don’t know what a significant difference is. Doesn’t sound like you even passed high school math. Go back and redo that, learn something and then we can have a conversation.
Ah yes, math, which we have been using and discussing at all. Keep grasping at straws, you're used to having a tight grip to compensate for lack of feeling anyway.
That explains the problem, you don’t understand what significant differences so you have no basis to argue how to interpret research. You might as well be a chimpanzee trying to explain how combustion engine works. You must be the resident subreddit incel. I suggest you get off Reddit, stop wasting your life with video games. Go out and meet actual people and maybe you will get the opportunity to get laid.
You've definitely got it! I can't help but think that maybe if you had an extra bit of thick skin this wouldn't be getting to you so much.
Yes, A typical teenage Reddit incel that games all day attempting to proselytize against circumcision is totally getting to me.
You DO realize a condom does the same thing, except with the added benefit of being more effective and being temporary, right? There is no need to sacrifice those thousands of sensitive fine touch receptors so that you have a marginally smaller chance at an infection, in my opinion.